Poll

Is Trump Support a Deal Breaker for You?

Yes
No
Maybe
Yes - except for Family
I want it to be, but I'm not able to act on it.
I follow the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Policy when it comes to Trump and/or Politics.  I don't want to know.

Author Topic: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?  (Read 10788 times)

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5728
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #200 on: October 19, 2020, 09:11:30 AM »


@LetItGrow  If visuals are more impactful, the exhibit "What Were You Wearing?" might be helpful to learn about how inaccurate it is to think *just don't wear a skirt*:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/heidi-stevens/ct-life-stevens-thursday-ku-what-were-you-wearing-0914-story.html

If >0 problems could have been prevented by 'action x' then my point is Ďdonít do action x'. Used rape and assault to set a scenario, and that, no surprise, caused some derailment.

One way to think about risk mitigation is to think about the endless list of possible failure modes and working to eliminate a many as possible. how you dress, how you act, how you react, where you go, with whom you go, etc. etc. are all possible methods to reduce (hopefully eliminate) some of those failure modes. Safety is a game of small margins sometimes, so every little bit could count. Can one do everything right and still have a problem? Of course, but I donít believe in any instance of any sort of attack, there wasnít an action that could have been taken that would have prevented the harm to yourself. Maybe pure luck like catching a red light that prevented getting tee-boned by someone texting, or a line at a bathroom being too short to allow enough time for someone to spike your drink. But maybe it was how you reacted when some thug grabbed your shoulder and made a crude comment. But maybe, just maybe, your choice of dress caused some opportunistic dirtbag to ignore you.

Make it require a horribly unlucky string of events for you to be a victim.

Funny how you completely ignored my post that disputes this victim-blaming b.s., and then just went right back to this garbage. Lord.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16927
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #201 on: October 19, 2020, 09:22:35 AM »
If >0 problems could have been prevented by 'action x' then my point is Ďdonít do action x'. Used rape and assault to set a scenario, and that, no surprise, caused some derailment.

I think the problem is that so far you've asserted that a woman changing her clothing makes her less likely to be raped but have not brought forth evidence of any kind to support your argument.  At the same time you've ignored evidence that points to the opposite being true.

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14228
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #202 on: October 19, 2020, 10:14:14 AM »
If >0 problems could have been prevented by 'action x' then my point is Ďdonít do action x'. Used rape and assault to set a scenario, and that, no surprise, caused some derailment.

I think the problem is that so far you've asserted that a woman changing her clothing makes her less likely to be raped but have not brought forth evidence of any kind to support your argument.  At the same time you've ignored evidence that points to the opposite being true.

Women already assess their environment much more than men do, for safety reasons.  Reminds me of the old saying "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them.  Women are afraid that men will kill them".

OtherJen

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3895
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #203 on: October 19, 2020, 10:24:14 AM »


@LetItGrow  If visuals are more impactful, the exhibit "What Were You Wearing?" might be helpful to learn about how inaccurate it is to think *just don't wear a skirt*:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/heidi-stevens/ct-life-stevens-thursday-ku-what-were-you-wearing-0914-story.html

If >0 problems could have been prevented by 'action x' then my point is Ďdonít do action x'. Used rape and assault to set a scenario, and that, no surprise, caused some derailment.

One way to think about risk mitigation is to think about the endless list of possible failure modes and working to eliminate a many as possible. how you dress, how you act, how you react, where you go, with whom you go, etc. etc. are all possible methods to reduce (hopefully eliminate) some of those failure modes. Safety is a game of small margins sometimes, so every little bit could count. Can one do everything right and still have a problem? Of course, but I donít believe in any instance of any sort of attack, there wasnít an action that could have been taken that would have prevented the harm to yourself. Maybe pure luck like catching a red light that prevented getting tee-boned by someone texting, or a line at a bathroom being too short to allow enough time for someone to spike your drink. But maybe it was how you reacted when some thug grabbed your shoulder and made a crude comment. But maybe, just maybe, your choice of dress caused some opportunistic dirtbag to ignore you.

Make it require a horribly unlucky string of events for you to be a victim.

Funny how you completely ignored my post that disputes this victim-blaming b.s., and then just went right back to this garbage. Lord.

This is someone who is not interested in having a discussion. They seem to be more interested in blaming women for their own rapes. Not much point in further debate, IMO.

DadJokes

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1733
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #204 on: October 19, 2020, 10:40:30 AM »
I know the thread has moved on from this topic, but this stuck out to me.

Are parents thinking this through and naming kids more mainstream (Meaning smart sounding I suppose...) names? Perhaps it is horrible to say, but seems like a way to take control of the situation.

If one truly believes Jimbob would cause bias and lack of opportunity, name the lad James. If you think Rasheed would hold him back, name him Russel. Etc.

Or just stay with Princess Consuela Banana Hammock and Mike Crapbag.

I hear you, but let me put this as gently as I possibly can, since I'm positive that you don't mean any offense by this.
Choosing to white wash (pun intended) over culture because it's easier the more one can pass as white is not seen as a positive response to systemic racism.

Erasing culture is not seen as a desirable response to prejudice.

I'm guilty of this with some friends. They're in the South and white. They named their kids Bruff & Jep.

It's wrong to think this, but I just think that giving names like that will limit their options later in life. All I think when I hear those names is "redneck."

Malcat

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3792
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #205 on: October 19, 2020, 10:55:07 AM »
I know the thread has moved on from this topic, but this stuck out to me.

Are parents thinking this through and naming kids more mainstream (Meaning smart sounding I suppose...) names? Perhaps it is horrible to say, but seems like a way to take control of the situation.

If one truly believes Jimbob would cause bias and lack of opportunity, name the lad James. If you think Rasheed would hold him back, name him Russel. Etc.

Or just stay with Princess Consuela Banana Hammock and Mike Crapbag.

I hear you, but let me put this as gently as I possibly can, since I'm positive that you don't mean any offense by this.
Choosing to white wash (pun intended) over culture because it's easier the more one can pass as white is not seen as a positive response to systemic racism.

Erasing culture is not seen as a desirable response to prejudice.

I'm guilty of this with some friends. They're in the South and white. They named their kids Bruff & Jep.

It's wrong to think this, but I just think that giving names like that will limit their options later in life. All I think when I hear those names is "redneck."

Yes, just as having a difficult to pronounce, identifiably middle Eastern name can negatively affect someone's professional future, for a lot of people of various cultural backgrounds, not erasing their culture is kind of a big deal.

I don't know much about the southern white folks to be honest, but I know A LOT about other communities who deeply value sustaining their cultural presence through their traditional names and language.

It may be hard for dominant culture folks to understand, but many marginalized cultures don't have erasure of their marginalized culture as their top priority.

ETA: as a Nordic looking Jew with an ultra Christian name, I experience a certain degree of guilt over the safety and comfort I have experienced being an invisible Jew who doesn't have to wear their culture except when it's safe to do so.

The singer Halsey has spoken a fair amount about passing as white and has had some interesting perspectives on it.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 10:59:32 AM by Malcat »

LetItGrow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #206 on: October 19, 2020, 11:48:23 AM »


@LetItGrow  If visuals are more impactful, the exhibit "What Were You Wearing?" might be helpful to learn about how inaccurate it is to think *just don't wear a skirt*:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/heidi-stevens/ct-life-stevens-thursday-ku-what-were-you-wearing-0914-story.html

If >0 problems could have been prevented by 'action x' then my point is Ďdonít do action x'. Used rape and assault to set a scenario, and that, no surprise, caused some derailment.

One way to think about risk mitigation is to think about the endless list of possible failure modes and working to eliminate a many as possible. how you dress, how you act, how you react, where you go, with whom you go, etc. etc. are all possible methods to reduce (hopefully eliminate) some of those failure modes. Safety is a game of small margins sometimes, so every little bit could count. Can one do everything right and still have a problem? Of course, but I donít believe in any instance of any sort of attack, there wasnít an action that could have been taken that would have prevented the harm to yourself. Maybe pure luck like catching a red light that prevented getting tee-boned by someone texting, or a line at a bathroom being too short to allow enough time for someone to spike your drink. But maybe it was how you reacted when some thug grabbed your shoulder and made a crude comment. But maybe, just maybe, your choice of dress caused some opportunistic dirtbag to ignore you.

Make it require a horribly unlucky string of events for you to be a victim.

Funny how you completely ignored my post that disputes this victim-blaming b.s., and then just went right back to this garbage. Lord.

This is someone who is not interested in having a discussion. They seem to be more interested in blaming women for their own rapes. Not much point in further debate, IMO.

And this is someone not interested in taking any accountability about things that happen to them.

Ignore the raping. Iíve said that.

Use anything unpleasant that happened to person A in the last month, caused by person B. I am saying that there are actions that could have been taken by Person A to prevent it in almost all cases. Recognizing those actions in advance and taking them seems like it would be good practice.

I am not blaming the victim, I am saying work to not be a victim. If you are not willing to work to not be a victim, then I really donít understand.




LetItGrow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #207 on: October 19, 2020, 11:51:04 AM »
If >0 problems could have been prevented by 'action x' then my point is Ďdonít do action x'. Used rape and assault to set a scenario, and that, no surprise, caused some derailment.

I think the problem is that so far you've asserted that a woman changing her clothing makes her less likely to be raped but have not brought forth evidence of any kind to support your argument.  At the same time you've ignored evidence that points to the opposite being true.

I deferred to your raping argument last week and said never mind. Do you not read replies to your posts?

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5728
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #208 on: October 19, 2020, 11:54:36 AM »


@LetItGrow  If visuals are more impactful, the exhibit "What Were You Wearing?" might be helpful to learn about how inaccurate it is to think *just don't wear a skirt*:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/heidi-stevens/ct-life-stevens-thursday-ku-what-were-you-wearing-0914-story.html

If >0 problems could have been prevented by 'action x' then my point is Ďdonít do action x'. Used rape and assault to set a scenario, and that, no surprise, caused some derailment.

One way to think about risk mitigation is to think about the endless list of possible failure modes and working to eliminate a many as possible. how you dress, how you act, how you react, where you go, with whom you go, etc. etc. are all possible methods to reduce (hopefully eliminate) some of those failure modes. Safety is a game of small margins sometimes, so every little bit could count. Can one do everything right and still have a problem? Of course, but I donít believe in any instance of any sort of attack, there wasnít an action that could have been taken that would have prevented the harm to yourself. Maybe pure luck like catching a red light that prevented getting tee-boned by someone texting, or a line at a bathroom being too short to allow enough time for someone to spike your drink. But maybe it was how you reacted when some thug grabbed your shoulder and made a crude comment. But maybe, just maybe, your choice of dress caused some opportunistic dirtbag to ignore you.

Make it require a horribly unlucky string of events for you to be a victim.

Funny how you completely ignored my post that disputes this victim-blaming b.s., and then just went right back to this garbage. Lord.

This is someone who is not interested in having a discussion. They seem to be more interested in blaming women for their own rapes. Not much point in further debate, IMO.

And this is someone not interested in taking any accountability about things that happen to them.

Ignore the raping. Iíve said that.

Use anything unpleasant that happened to person A in the last month, caused by person B. I am saying that there are actions that could have been taken by Person A to prevent it in almost all cases. Recognizing those actions in advance and taking them seems like it would be good practice.

I am not blaming the victim, I am saying work to not be a victim. If you are not willing to work to not be a victim, then I really donít understand.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why sexual harassment and assault continue to happen.

Sailor Sam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4587
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #209 on: October 19, 2020, 12:05:03 PM »
I am not blaming the victim, I am saying work to not be a victim. If you are not willing to work to not be a victim, then I really donít understand.

I do get what youíre saying. I can assure you that you are communicating, and getting your point across. What is happening here is not a failure to communicate your point. Whatís happening here is that your point his horrible. Just, unfathomably horrible, and trust me on that one because I fathom a lot of things on a daily basis.

If you legitimacy cannot understand why, then re-read the posts that have replied to you. You have an opportunity for personal growth right here. You can either get all pissy, or you can charge forward into new understanding.

LetItGrow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #210 on: October 19, 2020, 12:26:46 PM »
I am not blaming the victim, I am saying work to not be a victim. If you are not willing to work to not be a victim, then I really donít understand.

I do get what youíre saying. I can assure you that you are communicating, and getting your point across. What is happening here is not a failure to communicate your point. Whatís happening here is that your point his horrible. Just, unfathomably horrible, and trust me on that one because I fathom a lot of things on a daily basis.

If you legitimacy cannot understand why, then re-read the posts that have replied to you. You have an opportunity for personal growth right here. You can either get all pissy, or you can charge forward into new understanding.

I legitimately do not understand. Explain why it is bad to take action to protect yourself. Do you look both ways before crossing a street? Hopefully you do, even if the Walk sign is on for you.

I donít get the attitude of blindly going through life and not working towards not being a victim. There is a very broad set of actions, some super short term, some medium term, and some you have to play the long ball, that one can take to minimize risk. My position is that one should take those actions.

Sailor Sam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4587
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #211 on: October 19, 2020, 12:43:12 PM »
I am not blaming the victim, I am saying work to not be a victim. If you are not willing to work to not be a victim, then I really donít understand.

I do get what youíre saying. I can assure you that you are communicating, and getting your point across. What is happening here is not a failure to communicate your point. Whatís happening here is that your point his horrible. Just, unfathomably horrible, and trust me on that one because I fathom a lot of things on a daily basis.

If you legitimacy cannot understand why, then re-read the posts that have replied to you. You have an opportunity for personal growth right here. You can either get all pissy, or you can charge forward into new understanding.

I legitimately do not understand. Explain why it is bad to take action to protect yourself. Do you look both ways before crossing a street? Hopefully you do, even if the Walk sign is on for you.

I donít get the attitude of blindly going through life and not working towards not being a victim. There is a very broad set of actions, some super short term, some medium term, and some you have to play the long ball, that one can take to minimize risk. My position is that one should take those actions.

Women work towards not being victims on a daily basis. We fear rape far more than we fear murder.

The self-defense you are deeming appropriate - do not dress provocatively - is offensive because it implies rape is overwhelmingly a crime of opportunity perpetrated by a stranger that jumps out of the bushes, and also implies that women need to make their worlds smaller in order to Ďbe safe.í

The first is incorrect, and second is an impressive level of bullshit.

SotI

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 154
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #212 on: October 19, 2020, 12:46:03 PM »
I legitimately do not understand. Explain why it is bad to take action to protect yourself. Do you look both ways before crossing a street? Hopefully you do, even if the Walk sign is on for you.

I donít get the attitude of blindly going through life and not working towards not being a victim. There is a very broad set of actions, some super short term, some medium term, and some you have to play the long ball, that one can take to minimize risk. My position is that one should take those actions.
You can try to take all actions that you can think of and still "bad" happens regardless of how much you tried to avoid it. Or you take some measures b/c you thought they might be enough, and shit happens. The point is - imo - that it's still out of your control. Wrong time, wrong place and you're screwed.
So, don't judge the potential preparedness of the victim. You can try to play the odds, nothing wrong with taking risk mitigation measures. That is not the decisive factor, though.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16927
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #213 on: October 19, 2020, 12:49:27 PM »
I legitimately do not understand. Explain why it is bad to take action to protect yourself.

It's not bad to take action to protect yourself.

Can you share the evidence that you're using to come to the conclusion that the way a woman dresses will protect her from rape in any significant way?

LetItGrow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #214 on: October 19, 2020, 12:59:36 PM »
I legitimately do not understand. Explain why it is bad to take action to protect yourself.

It's not bad to take action to protect yourself.

Can you share the evidence that you're using to come to the conclusion that the way a woman dresses will protect her from rape in any significant way?

Can you read any number of my posts where I retracted that piece of the analogy and stop bringing up?

And also, no action itself has to be significant, it is the collection of actions that may help. I say may because I donít think this is ever a risk free world. My position remains that lowering risk is a positive thing.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16927
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #215 on: October 19, 2020, 01:17:43 PM »
I legitimately do not understand. Explain why it is bad to take action to protect yourself.

It's not bad to take action to protect yourself.

Can you share the evidence that you're using to come to the conclusion that the way a woman dresses will protect her from rape in any significant way?

Can you read any number of my posts where I retracted that piece of the analogy and stop bringing up?

And also, no action itself has to be significant, it is the collection of actions that may help. I say may because I donít think this is ever a risk free world. My position remains that lowering risk is a positive thing.

When things like this keep coming up:

I donít get the attitude of blindly going through life and not working towards not being a victim. There is a very broad set of actions, some super short term, some medium term, and some you have to play the long ball, that one can take to minimize risk. My position is that one should take those actions.

it becomes increasingly difficult not to bring up the rape/clothing link that you started with.  If not that, what victim and what actions are you discussing in the above quote?

Malcat

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3792
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #216 on: October 19, 2020, 01:21:03 PM »
I legitimately do not understand. Explain why it is bad to take action to protect yourself.

It's not bad to take action to protect yourself.

Can you share the evidence that you're using to come to the conclusion that the way a woman dresses will protect her from rape in any significant way?

Can you read any number of my posts where I retracted that piece of the analogy and stop bringing up?

And also, no action itself has to be significant, it is the collection of actions that may help. I say may because I donít think this is ever a risk free world. My position remains that lowering risk is a positive thing.

I continue to not want to attack you and I try to see where you are coming from.

I've replied to your original point about naming children ethnic names multiple times and you have yet to reply to any of those.

That is what this all came from after all. So if you want to defend your initial point, then let's get back to that, the position that people from marginalized cultures could name their children more white-passing names in an effort to mitigate racism/bigotry.

Have you read my replies and reflected on why some people from these cultures may put a lot of value in preserving their culture? That those names might really mean something to them? Did you take a minute to understand the guilt or even shame that some of us feel who are members of persecuted people but aren't easily identified as such?

You talk about avoiding naming children according to your own culture as if it's the same as locking your car door when you park it somewhere.

It isn't. Not at all.

It's that false equivalence that, to me, is where the cross communication is happening, and also where you are missing why your words can and do cause injury.

If someone wants to name their child after their war hero grandfather, it's very very painful for them to hear that they just shouldn't do that because others hate that grandfather for his skin pigment.

LetItGrow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #217 on: October 19, 2020, 01:21:44 PM »
I legitimately do not understand. Explain why it is bad to take action to protect yourself. Do you look both ways before crossing a street? Hopefully you do, even if the Walk sign is on for you.

I donít get the attitude of blindly going through life and not working towards not being a victim. There is a very broad set of actions, some super short term, some medium term, and some you have to play the long ball, that one can take to minimize risk. My position is that one should take those actions.
You can try to take all actions that you can think of and still "bad" happens regardless of how much you tried to avoid it. Or you take some measures b/c you thought they might be enough, and shit happens. The point is - imo - that it's still out of your control. Wrong time, wrong place and you're screwed.
So, don't judge the potential preparedness of the victim. You can try to play the odds, nothing wrong with taking risk mitigation measures. That is not the decisive factor, though.

Yeah, without a doubt it is almost impossible to drive risk to zero. But what if we all took measures to drop the risk by 10%? Or more? No idea what the overall impact may be, but it couldnít hurt.

And I am not judging the potential preparedness of the victim. I am judging the preparedness of everyone tomorrow and saying, work to make yourself less likely to 'have a problem'. Might be one more push-up, might be one more set of calls to your congressperson, might be volunteering, might be, might be.

Do you think there is normally a decisive factor in things? I liked that statement, it is thought provoking. Random noise overwhelming the signal is not unheard of. I am running down in my mind a set of things, getting mugged, getting attacked, home invasion, a flat tire, tripping on the sidewalk, getting hit by a random bullet. Some have more definitive defense actions, others do fall in that shit happens bucket. But just because shit may happen doesnít mean we should give up. (Obviously. Not claiming you imply otherwise)

I think Sailor S said something about making their world smaller. That is also a problem. Of course you could hide in your basement and a lot of risk goes away, but then other risks come in. Plus of course what kind of life is it to hide in a basement? So that is more difficulty and to me means you have to work even harder to reach that same level of mitigation, but be out there.

Malcat

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3792
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #218 on: October 19, 2020, 01:23:49 PM »
I legitimately do not understand. Explain why it is bad to take action to protect yourself.

It's not bad to take action to protect yourself.

Can you share the evidence that you're using to come to the conclusion that the way a woman dresses will protect her from rape in any significant way?

Can you read any number of my posts where I retracted that piece of the analogy and stop bringing up?

And also, no action itself has to be significant, it is the collection of actions that may help. I say may because I donít think this is ever a risk free world. My position remains that lowering risk is a positive thing.

When things like this keep coming up:

I donít get the attitude of blindly going through life and not working towards not being a victim. There is a very broad set of actions, some super short term, some medium term, and some you have to play the long ball, that one can take to minimize risk. My position is that one should take those actions.

it becomes increasingly difficult not to bring up the rape/clothing link that you started with.  If not that, what victim and what actions are you discussing in the above quote?

His original point was asking why ethnic folks don't proactively choose to name their kids white sounding names to try and prevent things like their resumes being ignored.

He then brought up not wearing revealing clothing as an equivalent measure of being proactive in avoiding being victimized.


GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16927
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #219 on: October 19, 2020, 01:42:18 PM »
I legitimately do not understand. Explain why it is bad to take action to protect yourself.

It's not bad to take action to protect yourself.

Can you share the evidence that you're using to come to the conclusion that the way a woman dresses will protect her from rape in any significant way?

Can you read any number of my posts where I retracted that piece of the analogy and stop bringing up?

And also, no action itself has to be significant, it is the collection of actions that may help. I say may because I donít think this is ever a risk free world. My position remains that lowering risk is a positive thing.

When things like this keep coming up:

I donít get the attitude of blindly going through life and not working towards not being a victim. There is a very broad set of actions, some super short term, some medium term, and some you have to play the long ball, that one can take to minimize risk. My position is that one should take those actions.

it becomes increasingly difficult not to bring up the rape/clothing link that you started with.  If not that, what victim and what actions are you discussing in the above quote?

His original point was asking why ethnic folks don't proactively choose to name their kids white sounding names to try and prevent things like their resumes being ignored.

He then brought up not wearing revealing clothing as an equivalent measure of being proactive in avoiding being victimized.

I had the same question about changing kids name though.  If employers are racist enough to throw out someone's resume because it has a black sounding name, how much of a chance do you really believe they're going to give a black person who manages to slip through and get an interview?

Changing the name might get you one step further along the interview process but it is not going to solve the problem (racism).

LetItGrow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #220 on: October 19, 2020, 01:49:51 PM »
I legitimately do not understand. Explain why it is bad to take action to protect yourself.

It's not bad to take action to protect yourself.

Can you share the evidence that you're using to come to the conclusion that the way a woman dresses will protect her from rape in any significant way?

Can you read any number of my posts where I retracted that piece of the analogy and stop bringing up?

And also, no action itself has to be significant, it is the collection of actions that may help. I say may because I donít think this is ever a risk free world. My position remains that lowering risk is a positive thing.

I continue to not want to attack you and I try to see where you are coming from.

I've replied to your original point about naming children ethnic names multiple times and you have yet to reply to any of those.

That is what this all came from after all. So if you want to defend your initial point, then let's get back to that, the position that people from marginalized cultures could name their children more white-passing names in an effort to mitigate racism/bigotry.

Have you read my replies and reflected on why some people from these cultures may put a lot of value in preserving their culture? That those names might really mean something to them? Did you take a minute to understand the guilt or even shame that some of us feel who are members of persecuted people but aren't easily identified as such?

You talk about avoiding naming children according to your own culture as if it's the same as locking your car door when you park it somewhere.

It isn't. Not at all.

It's that false equivalence that, to me, is where the cross communication is happening, and also where you are missing why your words can and do cause injury.

If someone wants to name their child after their war hero grandfather, it's very very painful for them to hear that they just shouldn't do that because others hate that grandfather for his skin pigment.

Sheesh, that was ground zero!

Yeah, read those replies, and agree with it being painful, not right , etc. But I still hold that it is still a choice, and there is a trade off and decisions have ramifications.

You were pretty racist in your comment, pretty sure I said 'smart sounding names' and you took that as 'white passing names' according to your posts. I think it is safe to assume you did not mean it that way, but that is how I read it.

Pretty sure I used Russell and James as my example names. If we want to keep this as black and white, should I name a bunch of black Russels and James? Not a ton of Russels come to mind, Iíll just go with Russell Wilson of the Seahawks and James Brown of , well thereís a lot of well known James Browns.

So back on the original inflammatory topic, I still say be accountable for the actions you take.

Maybe the point is better, be cognizant of the very real results of your choices and weigh them with your reasons for doing it. Again, I think my first post was posing this as one heck of a horrible question.

LetItGrow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #221 on: October 19, 2020, 01:54:09 PM »
I legitimately do not understand. Explain why it is bad to take action to protect yourself.

It's not bad to take action to protect yourself.

Can you share the evidence that you're using to come to the conclusion that the way a woman dresses will protect her from rape in any significant way?

Can you read any number of my posts where I retracted that piece of the analogy and stop bringing up?

And also, no action itself has to be significant, it is the collection of actions that may help. I say may because I donít think this is ever a risk free world. My position remains that lowering risk is a positive thing.

When things like this keep coming up:

I donít get the attitude of blindly going through life and not working towards not being a victim. There is a very broad set of actions, some super short term, some medium term, and some you have to play the long ball, that one can take to minimize risk. My position is that one should take those actions.

it becomes increasingly difficult not to bring up the rape/clothing link that you started with.  If not that, what victim and what actions are you discussing in the above quote?

His original point was asking why ethnic folks don't proactively choose to name their kids white sounding names to try and prevent things like their resumes being ignored.

He then brought up not wearing revealing clothing as an equivalent measure of being proactive in avoiding being victimized.

I had the same question about changing kids name though.  If employers are racist enough to throw out someone's resume because it has a black sounding name, how much of a chance do you really believe they're going to give a black person who manages to slip through and get an interview?

Changing the name might get you one step further along the interview process but it is not going to solve the problem (racism).

Yeah, that may be the real issue. I was more leaning on the potential for subconscious bias that once the candidate is there it becomes a non issue. I thought someone first said resumes were going right in the trash? Keeping them out the trash could get you right through if you are qualified.

Not sure subconscious bias is a legit 'non issue' of course.

LetItGrow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #222 on: October 19, 2020, 02:25:39 PM »


@LetItGrow  If visuals are more impactful, the exhibit "What Were You Wearing?" might be helpful to learn about how inaccurate it is to think *just don't wear a skirt*:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/heidi-stevens/ct-life-stevens-thursday-ku-what-were-you-wearing-0914-story.html

If >0 problems could have been prevented by 'action x' then my point is Ďdonít do action x'. Used rape and assault to set a scenario, and that, no surprise, caused some derailment.

One way to think about risk mitigation is to think about the endless list of possible failure modes and working to eliminate a many as possible. how you dress, how you act, how you react, where you go, with whom you go, etc. etc. are all possible methods to reduce (hopefully eliminate) some of those failure modes. Safety is a game of small margins sometimes, so every little bit could count. Can one do everything right and still have a problem? Of course, but I donít believe in any instance of any sort of attack, there wasnít an action that could have been taken that would have prevented the harm to yourself. Maybe pure luck like catching a red light that prevented getting tee-boned by someone texting, or a line at a bathroom being too short to allow enough time for someone to spike your drink. But maybe it was how you reacted when some thug grabbed your shoulder and made a crude comment. But maybe, just maybe, your choice of dress caused some opportunistic dirtbag to ignore you.

Make it require a horribly unlucky string of events for you to be a victim.




Please stop victim blaming, it's extremely hurtful to survivors of sexual assault. Multiple people have told you why your ideas are wrong and harmful. Rapists are to blame for rape, period. There is no outfit or magical series of behaviours that make someone immune to rape. Second guessing what victims did or wore just makes us less likely to report and allows people to make excuses for why it happened, resulting in rapists getting away with it and feeling emboldened because society focuses on the wrong end of the crime.

Once you read my other responses you will see where I tried to explain I am not blaming victims. I am challenging everyone to think through things and take actions that decrease risks across all aspects of their lives.

Villanelle

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3717
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #223 on: October 19, 2020, 02:55:16 PM »
Because there's nothing wrong with wearing a short skirt and there *is* something wrong with being a rapist. (Jesus fuck, I hope we can at least agree on that.)  So where should the focus be?  In the person doing nothing wrong, or on the one RAPING people.

There's nothing inherently wrong with naming your child Tyrese or Jin or Ahmend.  There is something wrong with being racist.  So whose behavior should be focus on changing--the one doing nothing wrong, or the racist who won't hire someone whose name doesn't sound white?

That's what's wrong here.  It's not saying, on an individual level, "given that the world has a lot of racists fucks in it, one needs to be thoughtful and consider all implications, unfortunately, when choosing a name for a child.  It's terrible that we live in a world where people even have to consider erasing a part of their culture in order to prevent judgement or worse, but that's reality.  So it's something to consider."  That's not wrong (though it's also worded in a way to make clear that the PROBLEM is someone else's fault.)  What's wrong is that a proposed solution to facing racism is for the victims or potential victims to change their perfectly benign behaviors, rather than saying the racists need to change theirs.

Can you really not see the nuances in that? 

Would you really say to your mother, if she were raped, "in the future, wear a longer skirt and carry a rape whistle, mom.  It will help solve the rape problem and maybe prevent you from being raped again!"?  Or would you tell Tyrese and Ahmed, or their moms, "It sucks that it's taking you twice as long to find a job as your non-culturally (non-white) named peers.  You should change your names and make sure to give your kids very white-sounding names in order to solve that problem." 

Would you say that?  And not feel like a massive dickhole?  Or might you feel just a touch insensitive if you did?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 02:57:56 PM by Villanelle »

GreenToTheCore

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 327
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #224 on: October 19, 2020, 03:19:28 PM »
Once you read my other responses you will see where I tried to explain I am not blaming victims. I am challenging everyone to think through things and take actions that decrease risks across all aspects of their lives.

Perhaps this is where a disconnect is. You have stated assumptions around causation even after folks have tried to discuss how they are inaccurate.
Ex: Wearing a skirt is not the cause of assault. Wearing a skirt does not make you more likely to be assaulted*. 


However, your view that clothing implies a lack of responsibility by the victim to decrease their risk (which is inaccurate) has real impacts on how rapists are held accountable:
"...a victim dressed in revealing clothing being held significantly more responsible than a victim dressed otherwise."
https://doi.org/10.1016/1359-1789(95)00011-9

Is Clothing Probative of Attitude or Intent - Implications for Rape and Sexual Harassment Cases
https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/lieq11&div=15&id=&page=



*Some places to learn more:
https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/factors-increase-sexual-assault-risk
https://www.inspq.qc.ca/en/sexual-assault/understanding-sexual-assault/risk-factors
http://pact5.org/resources/prevention-and-readiness/risk-factors-for-sexual-assault/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/485875
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 03:21:21 PM by GreenToTheCore »

LetItGrow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #225 on: October 19, 2020, 03:27:05 PM »
Because there's nothing wrong with wearing a short skirt and there *is* something wrong with being a rapist. (Jesus fuck, I hope we can at least agree on that.)  So where should the focus be?  In the person doing nothing wrong, or on the one RAPING people.

There's nothing inherently wrong with naming your child Tyrese or Jin or Ahmend.  There is something wrong with being racist.  So whose behavior should be focus on changing--the one doing nothing wrong, or the racist who won't hire someone whose name doesn't sound white?

That's what's wrong here.  It's not saying, on an individual level, "given that the world has a lot of racists fucks in it, one needs to be thoughtful and consider all implications, unfortunately, when choosing a name for a child.  It's terrible that we live in a world where people even have to consider erasing a part of their culture in order to prevent judgement or worse, but that's reality.  So it's something to consider."  That's not wrong (though it's also worded in a way to make clear that the PROBLEM is someone else's fault.)  What's wrong is that a proposed solution to facing racism is for the victims or potential victims to change their perfectly benign behaviors, rather than saying the racists need to change theirs.

Can you really not see the nuances in that? 

Would you really say to your mother, if she were raped, "in the future, wear a longer skirt and carry a rape whistle, mom.  It will help solve the rape problem and maybe prevent you from being raped again!"?  Or would you tell Tyrese and Ahmed, or their moms, "It sucks that it's taking you twice as long to find a job as your non-culturally (non-white) named peers.  You should change your names and make sure to give your kids very white-sounding names in order to solve that problem." 

Would you say that?  And not feel like a massive dickhole?  Or might you feel just a touch insensitive if you did?

Why are you acting like a racist, equating smart sounding names to being white? That is disappointing to me.

Did you also miss the four or five times I said i was incorrect to use rape in my analogy?

LetItGrow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #226 on: October 19, 2020, 03:32:25 PM »
Once you read my other responses you will see where I tried to explain I am not blaming victims. I am challenging everyone to think through things and take actions that decrease risks across all aspects of their lives.

Perhaps this is where a disconnect is. You have stated assumptions around causation even after folks have tried to discuss how they are inaccurate.
Ex: Wearing a skirt is not the cause of assault. Wearing a skirt does not make you more likely to be assaulted*. 


However, your view that clothing implies a lack of responsibility by the victim to decrease their risk (which is inaccurate) has real impacts on how rapists are held accountable:
"...a victim dressed in revealing clothing being held significantly more responsible than a victim dressed otherwise."
https://doi.org/10.1016/1359-1789(95)00011-9

Is Clothing Probative of Attitude or Intent - Implications for Rape and Sexual Harassment Cases
https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/lieq11&div=15&id=&page=



*Some places to learn more:
https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/factors-increase-sexual-assault-risk
https://www.inspq.qc.ca/en/sexual-assault/understanding-sexual-assault/risk-factors
http://pact5.org/resources/prevention-and-readiness/risk-factors-for-sexual-assault/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/485875

Sigh. Yawn. I am fine explicitly saying to remove sexual assault from my analogy. Rape was gone a long time ago.

I still hold fast that every individual should take steps, as many as they can, to mitigate risks.

Again, make it take a horrible stack up of events to make yourself a victim.

Malcat

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3792
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #227 on: October 19, 2020, 03:40:28 PM »
What's a "smart sounding" name???

EvenSteven

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 446
  • Location: St. Louis
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #228 on: October 19, 2020, 04:38:36 PM »
What's a "smart sounding" name???

IQ Von Knowsitall

Malcat

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3792
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #229 on: October 19, 2020, 04:41:03 PM »
What's a "smart sounding" name???

IQ Von Knowsitall

Gen Ius Greymatter of Mensa the Third?

LetItGrow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #230 on: October 19, 2020, 04:42:41 PM »
Tough question, but even tougher is 'what name will be 'smart sounding' in 25 years, when one may be trying for a post college job.

Canít answer either, except maybe something mainstream??

Villanelle

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3717
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #231 on: October 19, 2020, 05:04:06 PM »
Because there's nothing wrong with wearing a short skirt and there *is* something wrong with being a rapist. (Jesus fuck, I hope we can at least agree on that.)  So where should the focus be?  In the person doing nothing wrong, or on the one RAPING people.

There's nothing inherently wrong with naming your child Tyrese or Jin or Ahmend.  There is something wrong with being racist.  So whose behavior should be focus on changing--the one doing nothing wrong, or the racist who won't hire someone whose name doesn't sound white?

That's what's wrong here.  It's not saying, on an individual level, "given that the world has a lot of racists fucks in it, one needs to be thoughtful and consider all implications, unfortunately, when choosing a name for a child.  It's terrible that we live in a world where people even have to consider erasing a part of their culture in order to prevent judgement or worse, but that's reality.  So it's something to consider."  That's not wrong (though it's also worded in a way to make clear that the PROBLEM is someone else's fault.)  What's wrong is that a proposed solution to facing racism is for the victims or potential victims to change their perfectly benign behaviors, rather than saying the racists need to change theirs.

Can you really not see the nuances in that? 

Would you really say to your mother, if she were raped, "in the future, wear a longer skirt and carry a rape whistle, mom.  It will help solve the rape problem and maybe prevent you from being raped again!"?  Or would you tell Tyrese and Ahmed, or their moms, "It sucks that it's taking you twice as long to find a job as your non-culturally (non-white) named peers.  You should change your names and make sure to give your kids very white-sounding names in order to solve that problem." 

Would you say that?  And not feel like a massive dickhole?  Or might you feel just a touch insensitive if you did?

Why are you acting like a racist, equating smart sounding names to being white? That is disappointing to me.

Did you also miss the four or five times I said i was incorrect to use rape in my analogy?

This couldn't be more intentionally obtuse.  But since you fucking called me racist...

Those are they very types of names that don't get interviews.  Which was *YOUR* entire point, no?  *I* did't equate "smart sounding names" (WTF??) to sounding white.  I gave examples of traditionally ethnic (non-white) names because those are the kinds of names that people (racist people) read on a resume and don't give an interview. 

And you say that *I* equate "smart-sounding" names to being white?  FUck off.  And what the hell even is a "smart-sounding name"?  that's your term--you are the one who applied that to the opposite of the ethnic names I used as examples.  So your are the racist in the piece, but you are "disappointed" in me? 

And you said your analogy comparing rape to ethnic-sounding names wasn't a good analogy, but you never said that it wasn't victim blaming or a shitty thing to say.  You "retracted the analogy", not the idea or the words.  Just the comparison to bigots not hiring based on names.  So, you still said it.  You haven't taken it back or apologized.  You just don'' want us to compare it to the name thing anymore.  If you say you were wrong, that telling women not to wear short skirts wouldn't decrease rape, and that it was an inappropriate thing to say and puts the responsibility for fixing rape on the victims instead of the rapists, then we can stop talking about it.  Until then, they are your words and people will keep discussing them.  Because you said something stupid, gross, hurtful, incorrect, and insensitive.  You can't just tell people that it's not up for discussion anymore, and expect them to obey.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 05:05:44 PM by Villanelle »

LetItGrow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 161
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #232 on: October 19, 2020, 05:42:13 PM »
Because there's nothing wrong with wearing a short skirt and there *is* something wrong with being a rapist. (Jesus fuck, I hope we can at least agree on that.)  So where should the focus be?  In the person doing nothing wrong, or on the one RAPING people.

There's nothing inherently wrong with naming your child Tyrese or Jin or Ahmend.  There is something wrong with being racist.  So whose behavior should be focus on changing--the one doing nothing wrong, or the racist who won't hire someone whose name doesn't sound white?

That's what's wrong here.  It's not saying, on an individual level, "given that the world has a lot of racists fucks in it, one needs to be thoughtful and consider all implications, unfortunately, when choosing a name for a child.  It's terrible that we live in a world where people even have to consider erasing a part of their culture in order to prevent judgement or worse, but that's reality.  So it's something to consider."  That's not wrong (though it's also worded in a way to make clear that the PROBLEM is someone else's fault.)  What's wrong is that a proposed solution to facing racism is for the victims or potential victims to change their perfectly benign behaviors, rather than saying the racists need to change theirs.

Can you really not see the nuances in that? 

Would you really say to your mother, if she were raped, "in the future, wear a longer skirt and carry a rape whistle, mom.  It will help solve the rape problem and maybe prevent you from being raped again!"?  Or would you tell Tyrese and Ahmed, or their moms, "It sucks that it's taking you twice as long to find a job as your non-culturally (non-white) named peers.  You should change your names and make sure to give your kids very white-sounding names in order to solve that problem." 

Would you say that?  And not feel like a massive dickhole?  Or might you feel just a touch insensitive if you did?

Why are you acting like a racist, equating smart sounding names to being white? That is disappointing to me.

Did you also miss the four or five times I said i was incorrect to use rape in my analogy?

This couldn't be more intentionally obtuse.  But since you fucking called me racist...

Those are they very types of names that don't get interviews.  Which was *YOUR* entire point, no?  *I* did't equate "smart sounding names" (WTF??) to sounding white.  I gave examples of traditionally ethnic (non-white) names because those are the kinds of names that people (racist people) read on a resume and don't give an interview. 

And you say that *I* equate "smart-sounding" names to being white?  FUck off.  And what the hell even is a "smart-sounding name"?  that's your term--you are the one who applied that to the opposite of the ethnic names I used as examples.  So your are the racist in the piece, but you are "disappointed" in me? 

And you said your analogy comparing rape to ethnic-sounding names wasn't a good analogy, but you never said that it wasn't victim blaming or a shitty thing to say.  You "retracted the analogy", not the idea or the words.  Just the comparison to bigots not hiring based on names.  So, you still said it.  You haven't taken it back or apologized.  You just don'' want us to compare it to the name thing anymore.  If you say you were wrong, that telling women not to wear short skirts wouldn't decrease rape, and that it was an inappropriate thing to say and puts the responsibility for fixing rape on the victims instead of the rapists, then we can stop talking about it.  Until then, they are your words and people will keep discussing them.  Because you said something stupid, gross, hurtful, incorrect, and insensitive.  You can't just tell people that it's not up for discussion anymore, and expect them to obey.

Your words: wonít hire someone whose name doesn't sound white?

My words: naming kids more mainstream (Meaning smart sounding I suppose...) names?

I put those together and say you acted like a racist. You might not know it, you will deny it, but you went there immediately. Maybe your were all emotional with your vile rant and your true colors popped out?

I also said you were acting like a racist....not that you were one.



StashingAway

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 380
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #233 on: October 19, 2020, 06:35:02 PM »
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/culturally-speaking/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism

I'm aware of the argument but reject it with every fiber of my being.  Calling this outlook out as racism is racism.  Telling people that the color of their skin matters because of their lived experiences may be superficially true, but it should by no means be a goal that is accepted.  It is terrible to consider accepting this as an incontrovertible truth as opposed to an anachronism that needs to die.

I disagree with most of what jlorean is saying in this thread, but I agree with this part here. If colorblindness isn't the goal, then what the heck is this all for? How can we have "separate but equal" racial identities without devolving into identity based actions? I want race to be as interesting as eye color; namely, something that I don't even notice day to day. Something that universities don't screen for and something that isn't asked on employment applications. I conceit that to get there we may have to correct for the lasting effects of systemic racism. But to say that colorblindness isn't the end goal counts me out. I will have to unfortunately band with my skin tone because I have not choice on the matter. It will be one of the defining issues with the "left" should they snap up the election, and it's going to be a doozie!

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1739
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #234 on: October 19, 2020, 07:01:15 PM »

 If colorblindness isn't the goal, then what the heck is this all for? How can we have "separate but equal" racial identities without devolving into identity based actions? I want race to be as interesting as eye color; namely, something that I don't even notice day to day. Something that universities don't screen for and something that isn't asked on employment applications. I conceit that to get there we may have to correct for the lasting effects of systemic racism. But to say that colorblindness isn't the end goal counts me out. I will have to unfortunately band with my skin tone because I have not choice on the matter. It will be one of the defining issues with the "left" should they snap up the election, and it's going to be a doozie!



I am not supportive of jettisoning Affirmative Action in its entirety because I know that the world will never be free of invidious discrimination: Justice demands that Affirmative Action's provisions that counter and remedy  wrongful discrimination  ought always  be kept in place.

Otherwise I advocate getting rid of Affirmative Action, in particular,  due to my belief that it results in an inefficient allocation of public resources.

In the interest of freedom to choose let the private sector implement Affirmative Action whichever way it chooses.

In the public sector the days of Affirmative Action are definitely numbered. The Supreme Court has said so  but  nowhere  near as bluntly as C. J.  Roberts implied in Parents Involved in Community Schools.


Parents Involved in Community Schools v. Seattle School District No. 1
(2007)


"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race." C. J. Roberts

NaN

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 146
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #235 on: October 19, 2020, 07:41:50 PM »
I think it would be better to return this topic back to the original question. It seems to be spiraling out of control into a separate topic. And some of those on this forum do appreciate reading posts by users here related to this issue because that's why I clicked on this topic link. This other tangent, while an important conversation, might be best suited in its own post.

Sailor Sam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4587
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #236 on: October 19, 2020, 09:03:57 PM »
This couldn't be more intentionally obtuse.  But since you fucking called me racist...

Deep breaths, buddy! Homebro is playing a little game, and he ainít worth that.

LennStar

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2200
  • Location: Germany
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #237 on: October 20, 2020, 04:17:39 AM »
@LetItGrow  If visuals are more impactful, the exhibit "What Were You Wearing?" might be helpful to learn about how inaccurate it is to think *just don't wear a skirt*:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/heidi-stevens/ct-life-stevens-thursday-ku-what-were-you-wearing-0914-story.html

If >0 problems could have been prevented by 'action x' then my point is Ďdonít do action x'. Used rape and assault to set a scenario, and that, no surprise, caused some derailment.
So you never leave your house to prevent you are getting hit by a drunken, speeding car driver?

Quote
If employers are racist enough to throw out someone's resume because it has a black sounding name, how much of a chance do you really believe they're going to give a black person who manages to slip through and get an interview?
From experience in Germany between unmeasurable and quite a bit. For what factors are determining here... let's say that is ongoing research.

What's a "smart sounding" name???
X ∆ A-12
You need a master's degree just to be able to pronounce it ;)

spartana

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1812
  • FIREd at 36? Or maybe it was 42?
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #238 on: October 21, 2020, 10:56:54 AM »
While no one should have to dress a certain way in order to not be raped, it is at least something one can control, and lowering risk is often a series of actions.

I snipped this before because I wanted to take a few moments to think about it - the initial read elicited some strong feelings.  The strong feelings haven't gone away though.

Rape isn't typically about sexual gratification.  Old, fat, pretty, ugly, or manner of dress . . . data doesn't show a strong preference one way or the other.  From everything I've read and understand, rape happens because a person wants to exert power and domination over another.

Seductive dress especially has little to nothing to do with rape.  Muslim countries where women wear clothing that fully covers their bodies and faces do not show a lower frequency of rapes than countries where there is no restriction on a woman's clothing.  The choice to rape is made by the rapist, not by the clothing the victim wears.

Your initial assumption is wrong here, and it's leading you to an invalid conclusion.
And I'm sure every woman who wears the exact same uniform and clothing as her male co-workers - regardless of how masculine, dirty, grimy, smelly or unappealing she looks- who has been gropped, cat called, and raped would strongly disagree with @LetItGrow. Sexual assault and condensating behavior (cat calling etc) is about power, superioity and intimidation and keeping "those people" down where they feel they belong.  Clothing choice has nothing to do with it. Ask me how I know.

ETA: just saw his comments about dress and sexual assault were taken back. But wanted to add this kind of mentality is why many women (and men) would tell Trump is a relationship deal breaker. It is not just the conservative policies, but the attitude as a person he holds towards so many women and POC. If I heard my Dad, brother or BF say "grab them by the pussy" with regard to women that would be a deal breaker for me.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 11:03:25 AM by spartana »

GreenToTheCore

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 327
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #239 on: October 21, 2020, 11:03:55 AM »
ETA: just saw his comments about dress and sexual assault were taken back.

Not really though, just doesn't want to use that example for his analogy.

Sigh. Yawn. I am fine explicitly saying to remove sexual assault from my analogy. Rape was gone a long time ago.

I still hold fast that every individual should take steps, as many as they can, to mitigate risks.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5728
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #240 on: October 21, 2020, 11:29:29 AM »
ETA: just saw his comments about dress and sexual assault were taken back.

Not really though, just doesn't want to use that example for his analogy.

Sigh. Yawn. I am fine explicitly saying to remove sexual assault from my analogy. Rape was gone a long time ago.

I still hold fast that every individual should take steps, as many as they can, to mitigate risks.

Yeah, he still believes it. He just doesn't want to try to defend himself anymore, so he makes a big production of it being just this ho-hum thing (yawn) that we're all over-reacting to.

Almost worse, frankly. Cowardly and disingenuous.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28261
  • Age: -998
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Is Trump a Relationship Deal Breaker?
« Reply #241 on: October 21, 2020, 02:02:20 PM »
MOD NOTE: Locking thread, ban issued.

Thank you to those of you that defended the idea a better society over victim blaming. Especially those of you who somehow managed to keep it civil. Cheers!
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.