Author Topic: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?  (Read 3359 times)

JustGettingStarted1980

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Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« on: July 23, 2017, 09:01:59 AM »
Here's a question for Mustachians, wherever you may be along the Political Aisle:

Should voting be a widespread phenomenon? Or should it be limited in some way?

The general course of world history is to have more and more people have a say on how things are run in society. In early US Colonial history, only land-owning white males were allowed to vote. Later on, landless white males were allowed to vote too.  Interesting enough, black males were allowed to vote as soon as 1870, whereas ANY women were not to vote until 1920!!!

Specific Amendments were made to the Constitution as well (from Wikipedia). They state that voting rights cannot be denied or abridged based on the following:

"Race, color, or previous condition of servitude" (15th Amendment, 1870)
"On account of sex" (19th Amendment, 1920)
"By reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax" for federal elections (24th Amendment, 1964)[nb 1]
"Who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of age" (26th Amendment, 1971)

So my question is, is there anyone out there in the internet that thinks that RESTRICTIONS should be justifiably placed on voting for any particular reason?

How about for: Felons? 16 year olds? Children?  People who are mentally disabled? Schizophrenics? Alzheimer's patients?

Thanks for playing!!!

JGS



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/22/opinion/sunday/the-bogus-voter-fraud-commission.html

SwordGuy

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2017, 09:54:52 AM »
My daughter is mentally retarded.  She has no business being allowed to vote.

Someone who has had to be assigned someone to be their guardian by the courts because they are not mentally competent has no business voting.

Felons in prison have lost other rights, voting should go along with it.

Felons on parole - if they are safe enough to let out on the street, they are safe enough to vote.   In many states they cannot vote, ever.   I could see an argument on waiting X years of parole before they vote, though.  Wouldn't necessarily like it, but it would not be unreasonable.

Felons who have completed their sentences and any parole should be allowed to vote.   In many states they cannot.





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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 12:40:23 PM »
Here! Here!

It's high time we stripped all Gingers of the franchise! 
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JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 01:16:23 PM »
Say what?

GuitarStv

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 02:37:24 PM »
Lower age limits to things are always a balancing act.  Some people are capable of making a well reasoned and informed descision about politics at 16, some can't do it at by 40.  Generally, I think that we can agree that as age gets lower, the number of people able to reason well does drop off quickly ( not too many politically involved 6 year olds).

By the same token though (and rather more uncomfortably), I believe that a similar curve happens at the upper end of the age scale . . . There are many people in their 90s who are no longer capable of reasoning in a lucid manner.  Not popular to deny the elderly rights for the same reason that we deny rights to the young though.


As far as felons go, I think they should be allowed to vote.  If there are large enough numbers of felons that they form a block of voters who can sway elections then the problem lies with the judicial system . . . not with the voters.

scantee

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 03:02:06 PM »
Here! Here!

It's high time we stripped all Gingers of the franchise! 

+1

Plus people from Illinois.  I simply just don't like that state.

respond2u

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2017, 03:22:29 PM »
There's this saying "Democracies fail when the people learn they can vote themselves bread and circuses." and is, from what I was taught, essentially why the US was not set up as a democracy.

I recall a plot point of Starship Troopers: you must serve the country to be granted the privilege to guide it with your vote (not just militarily). That seems pretty reasonable to me. It wouldn't be perfect, of course (look how Gore or Bush Jr served in the Viet Nam war vs Kerry), but it would probably leave us less likely to go the historical route. Trump might be different if he had to do Peace Corps for a few years (he had bone spurs, you know, so he prevented from joining the military about which he knows so much).

IIRC correctly, the Constitution originally didn't specify who can vote, that was left to each State to decide what they felt best. Since we have a representative republic, the quantity of voters per State wouldn't matter to Federal governance.

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Dr Who likes gingers, so I'd keep them voting.

As for the Illini--they have a remarkable ability to detect corruption. We need to count their votes and immediately hire special counsel to investigate their winner.

former player

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2017, 03:28:24 PM »
I'd be reluctant to lower the voting age below the age to which education is compulsory - I don't want party politics entering the school system any more than they already are.

Apart from that, shouldn't all efforts be aimed at encouraging people to vote, rather than restricting them?  If the young in the UK had bothered to register and vote in the EU referendum it's much less likely that we would be burdened with this Brexit nonsense.

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marty998

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2017, 03:31:04 PM »
Lower age limits to things are always a balancing act.  Some people are capable of making a well reasoned and informed descision about politics at 16, some can't do it at by 40.  Generally, I think that we can agree that as age gets lower, the number of people able to reason well does drop off quickly ( not too many politically involved 6 year olds).

By the same token though (and rather more uncomfortably), I believe that a similar curve happens at the upper end of the age scale . . . There are many people in their 90s who are no longer capable of reasoning in a lucid manner.  Not popular to deny the elderly rights for the same reason that we deny rights to the young though.


Here's a question...should a minor who works and pays taxes be allowed to vote? Society gets the benefits of the fruits of their labour, but the individual is denied the vote...

GuitarStv

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2017, 05:44:17 PM »
Lower age limits to things are always a balancing act.  Some people are capable of making a well reasoned and informed descision about politics at 16, some can't do it at by 40.  Generally, I think that we can agree that as age gets lower, the number of people able to reason well does drop off quickly ( not too many politically involved 6 year olds).

By the same token though (and rather more uncomfortably), I believe that a similar curve happens at the upper end of the age scale . . . There are many people in their 90s who are no longer capable of reasoning in a lucid manner.  Not popular to deny the elderly rights for the same reason that we deny rights to the young though.


Here's a question...should a minor who works and pays taxes be allowed to vote? Society gets the benefits of the fruits of their labour, but the individual is denied the vote...

The poor and unemployed are allowed to vote, senior citizens who are no longer working/contributing taxes are allowed to vote.  Working and paying taxes has nothing to do with being allowed to vote, so I'd argue the same thing that I argued in my original post - it's really a difficult call to make.  To be fair to everyone would require some sort of individual assessment which I think would be prohibitively expensive/difficult to decide upon/difficult to administer . . . so we go with the easier approach of an age cut-off.  The age cut-off is inherently unfair and has problems with it, but I'm not sure that a better solution exists.

Zamboni

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2017, 06:27:42 PM »
Some countries require people to vote, in other words voting is mandatory if one has the right to vote. Australia is an example. In some cases, elderly can be exempted from this requirement. Given low voter turnouts, I'd rather see us go this direction.

I also think that a prior felony conviction should not prevent someone from voting once they are out of prison.

As to the proposed restriction on gingers, are we talking only natural gingers, or also anyone who decides to dye hair ginger?

GuitarStv

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2017, 06:36:21 PM »
Forcing people to vote seems like a perversion of democracy to my eyes.

SwordGuy

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2017, 07:14:13 PM »
Forcing people to vote seems like a perversion of democracy to my eyes.

I agree.

However, it **is** one of the primary duties of a regular citizen.

I have zero problem instituting a "bad citizenship tax" that is assessed if the citizen does not vote and does not have a reasonable reason why they did not.  I suggest $100 per month since the last election the citizen was allowed to vote in.

 This would have the benefit of making primary elections more costly to skip than general elections.   A greater turnout of regular folks would be more likely to dilute the bat-shit crazy wings of both US parties. 

gaja

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2017, 07:35:26 PM »
After discussing this issue with some people from tiny Italian mountain municipalities, I propose we go for the lottery democracy instead. These villages were so small, that they basically took turns being mayor ("I did it last time, it is your turn now"). To get rid of all the corruption connected with elections, and to ensure that the politicians represent the average population, I think we would be much better off if we just randomly picked names. For Norway, we would start with randomly choosing the king/queen (and his/her family), the members of parliament, the county councils and all the municipal council members. I guess you in the US would start with the president - it would take a lot statistically to randomly draw the name of someone worse than what you've got now.

In this lottery democracy, I don't think anyone should be exempt. If we get a criminal or mentally incompetent king, it will just be a repetition of history. As long as we keep the samples large enough, age shouldn't matter either, since it would average out.
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lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2017, 07:39:57 PM »
The median non-voter is less intelligent and less informed than the median voter (i.e. mandatory voting is a horrible idea).

Fewer people voting is a good idea, though to make it seem fair, one can't restrict irrational voters from the process. Instead, one could have a voter lottery each year where some small subset of people are randomly selected to be eligible to vote. By amplifying the value and influence of a vote, people will have more incentive to be rational. As Bryan Caplan pointed out, a single vote has such a remote possibility of determining an election that voters are free to be rationally irrational (voting is about making themselves feel virtuous rather than making rational decisions).

Norioch

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2017, 10:05:35 PM »
It should be much easier to vote. It's unconscionable to require people to take off work on a Tuesday (why on Earth is election day still on Tuesday?) and drive 270 miles to wait in line for hours at a poll to vote. Many people simply don't have the resources to do it at all or can't do it without losing their jobs, and that's indefensible. We should have nation-wide mail-in voting that's open for a month before election day. In fact I'd go so far as to say voting should be mandatory, or at least filling out and mailing in the ballot should be mandatory. You could have "no vote cast" options on every single ballot question for people you actively don't want to vote for any of the candidates, but they should still be required to go through the act of filling out the ballot.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 10:07:47 PM by Norioch »

accolay

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2017, 11:01:47 PM »
Apart from that, shouldn't all efforts be aimed at encouraging people to vote, rather than restricting them?  If the young in the UK had bothered to register and vote in the EU referendum it's much less likely that we would be burdened with this Brexit nonsense.

I agree. How many people in total wouldn't be able to vote vs. how many could get kicked off the roles if they don't meet some requirement, depending on the state like what is happening with the silly voter ID laws right now.

I think compulsory voting is a better idea.

Dabnasty

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2017, 08:26:08 AM »
I do not agree with the idea of compulsory voting. Why would we want people voting who haven't educated themselves on the candidates and issues. I also disagree with the idea that voting is a duty. Understanding the government and how it works, maybe that could be considered a duty, but if I make an active decision to not vote, that's still a vote. And those who don't vote out of laziness, do you really think they've taken the time to inform themselves?

In an ideal world I would want restrictions on voting, not based on age or criminal status or other personal traits, but rather on knowledge of the political process and the issue being voted on. I also understand testing may be cost prohibitive or just too difficult to organize for certain elections but as an example, say you're voting on a ballot measure for your state, what if you were required to describe what the measure was in order for your vote to count?

I like the idea posted by lost_in_the_endless_aisle of a lottery which I think would be considered a form of sortition? Not only would you give the lottery winners a more important vote but you could do a better job of educating those voters. And by educating, I don't mean bombarding them with advertisements, I mean giving them real information on the candidates, have them study the voting history of a candidate and even the wording of the laws they voted on. Heck, we could even take them out of work and give them a course on US politics. Voting duty could be the new jury duty.
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Drifterrider

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2017, 08:31:27 AM »
If voting were compulsory, the first thing that would be voted on is to repeal that law.

I think fewer people should vote.  I'm in favor of a test of general knowledge about government being a requirement.  Too many people vote on emotion and not knowledge. 

AliEli

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2017, 08:40:38 AM »
We call it "compulsory voting" in Australia, but no one is actually compelled to vote. Australian citizens are required to attend and get the name crossed off the electoral roll and receive a ballot... what they do from that point forward is totally up to each individual. There are a lot of rude pictures drawn on ballots here.  I think knowing that you have to participate keeps you more plugged in to the issues of the day.

No votes for gingers? Hmmm... how is that going to be measured?  How much ginge can one have before they get stripped of their vote?

PoutineLover

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2017, 08:54:02 AM »
I think it's dangerous to deny people the vote based on rather arbitrary measures like "knowledge of the issues". That's the kind of policy that denied black people the vote (not that long ago) when they were subjected to humiliating and biased "literacy" tests. I also think it's wrong to deny felons the vote, especially after getting out of jail. They are still citizens, and given how much more likely black men are to go to jail, it has almost the same effect as "a black person is 3/5 a person". I do like the idea of mandatory ballots, mailed in, along with an option to say "discard vote" and an info packet that includes the position on a few broad questions by every candidate on the ballot. It's hard to keep track of all the lies and promises, so a standard questionnaire would be a better point of reference that would be standardized for everyone and allow those who don't keep up to date to catch up and make an informed decision.

robartsd

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2017, 09:04:06 AM »
It's unconscionable to require people to take off work on a Tuesday (why on Earth is election day still on Tuesday?) and drive 270 miles to wait in line for hours at a poll to vote.
Where does this happen? There should be many more polling places if anyone lives 270 miles from their polling place and the polling place has hours long wait lines.

While I do agree that it would be better if voters were more informed and rational in deciding how to vote, I don't think there is any practical way to improve this. Poll taxes and basic literacy tests were abolished because they were used to effect ratial discrimination (typically uneducated whites were "grandfathered" in when literacy tests were used). Now the federal government requires ballots be printed in any language that is the primary language of a certain percentage of the population. In my county both spanish and chinesse must be provided.

I think a better way to systematicly reduce the election of extreemists from of any political party would be to make it more rational to vote for the candidate you think is best than to vote for the major party candidate you think is least bad. I would like to see some form of Instant Runoff Voting (voters rank candidates) or Range Voting (voters score candidates) as the norm.

JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2017, 09:40:10 AM »
We call it "compulsory voting" in Australia, but no one is actually compelled to vote. Australian citizens are required to attend and get the name crossed off the electoral roll and receive a ballot... what they do from that point forward is totally up to each individual. There are a lot of rude pictures drawn on ballots here.  I think knowing that you have to participate keeps you more plugged in to the issues of the day.

No votes for gingers? Hmmm... how is that going to be measured?  How much ginge can one have before they get stripped of their vote?


My $0.02 as the OP:

1. I think compulsory voting is a great idea. I think it forces people to vote for their own interests (emotional or financial). I agree with AlliElli that they can simply vote "none of the above" if they don't care.

2. Another poster said it's stupid to have voting day on a Tuesday. I agree. Even if it's in the Constitution (look it up). Voting Day should be a National Holiday every 2 years, and Saturday or Sunday is just fine.

3. I think literacy or knowledge prerequisites to vote is dangerous and awful. Not everyone has to vote for the same reasons.

4. Switzerland has a system in which there are elected professional politicians on one side, and then compulsory and temporary "house of citizens" on the other side where citizens who qualify are basically conscripted to due their duty for a term of 2 years. I like this idea. Any Swiss out there that can explain this system better?


Drifterrider

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2017, 10:34:57 AM »
I think it's dangerous to deny people the vote based on rather arbitrary measures like "knowledge of the issues". That's the kind of policy that denied black people the vote (not that long ago) when they were subjected to humiliating and biased "literacy" tests. I also think it's wrong to deny felons the vote, especially after getting out of jail. They are still citizens, and given how much more likely black men are to go to jail, it has almost the same effect as "a black person is 3/5 a person". I do like the idea of mandatory ballots, mailed in, along with an option to say "discard vote" and an info packet that includes the position on a few broad questions by every candidate on the ballot. It's hard to keep track of all the lies and promises, so a standard questionnaire would be a better point of reference that would be standardized for everyone and allow those who don't keep up to date to catch up and make an informed decision.

You consider "knowledge of the issues" to be arbitrary?  Perhaps you shouldn't vote either.

GuitarStv

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2017, 11:14:50 AM »
I think it's dangerous to deny people the vote based on rather arbitrary measures like "knowledge of the issues". That's the kind of policy that denied black people the vote (not that long ago) when they were subjected to humiliating and biased "literacy" tests. I also think it's wrong to deny felons the vote, especially after getting out of jail. They are still citizens, and given how much more likely black men are to go to jail, it has almost the same effect as "a black person is 3/5 a person". I do like the idea of mandatory ballots, mailed in, along with an option to say "discard vote" and an info packet that includes the position on a few broad questions by every candidate on the ballot. It's hard to keep track of all the lies and promises, so a standard questionnaire would be a better point of reference that would be standardized for everyone and allow those who don't keep up to date to catch up and make an informed decision.

You consider "knowledge of the issues" to be arbitrary?  Perhaps you shouldn't vote either.

It's not that knowledge of the issues is arbitrary.  Obviously, it should be pretty darned important when choosing someone to support.  "Knowledge of the issues" becomes arbitrary when the "issues" that are being tested are determined arbitrarily.  Historically, the selection of questions has been slanted to prevent perfectly knowledgeable people from voting.

infogoon

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2017, 11:17:29 AM »
4. Switzerland has a system in which there are elected professional politicians on one side, and then compulsory and temporary "house of citizens" on the other side where citizens who qualify are basically conscripted to due their duty for a term of 2 years. I like this idea. Any Swiss out there that can explain this system better?

Isn't that pretty much how the House and Senate are supposed to work? Representatives are supposed to be just that, ordinary citizens who represent the population of their district for a couple of years and then go home.

madgeylou

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2017, 11:37:01 AM »
In PA, I had to wait in line to vote in person. Old people or folks who couldn't get off work or couldn't make it to the polls for whatever reason would have to request an absentee ballot and make sure to send it in. They also made me show ID at the polling place, even though by law they shouldn't have done so.

In CO, my ballot arrives in the mail, and I have several weeks to fill it out, read all the referendum questions, and drop it off or mail it back. There are also polling places you can go to in person if you want, and you can register to vote right there.

I believe all US states should be like CO. Mail-in ballots keyed to registered voters are far harder to tamper with, and it ensures that it's super easy for everyone who wants to vote to be able to do so.

madgeylou

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2017, 11:40:49 AM »
I also have heard a presentation from some 16 and 17 year olds, making the argument that since they will be impacted more than anyone older by decisions made today on climate change especially, they should get to vote. I found their argument very compelling.

PoutineLover

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2017, 12:09:35 PM »
I think it's dangerous to deny people the vote based on rather arbitrary measures like "knowledge of the issues". That's the kind of policy that denied black people the vote (not that long ago) when they were subjected to humiliating and biased "literacy" tests. I also think it's wrong to deny felons the vote, especially after getting out of jail. They are still citizens, and given how much more likely black men are to go to jail, it has almost the same effect as "a black person is 3/5 a person". I do like the idea of mandatory ballots, mailed in, along with an option to say "discard vote" and an info packet that includes the position on a few broad questions by every candidate on the ballot. It's hard to keep track of all the lies and promises, so a standard questionnaire would be a better point of reference that would be standardized for everyone and allow those who don't keep up to date to catch up and make an informed decision.

You consider "knowledge of the issues" to be arbitrary?  Perhaps you shouldn't vote either.
Sorry, I don't think I expressed that correctly. I do think having an awareness of current events is necessary to make an informed decision, but that any testing of that would end up being arbitrary. There are as many reasons to vote as there are people, and I don't think that it's possible to create a test that can accurately measure whether someone is "informed enough" to vote. GuitarStv expressed it better than I did, thanks.

thesvenster

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2017, 12:26:39 PM »
All I'll say is that the idea "if we could just get more people voting, things would be better" is severely misguided.

robartsd

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2017, 12:35:08 PM »
Mail-in ballots keyed to registered voters are far harder to tamper with, and it ensures that it's super easy for everyone who wants to vote to be able to do so.
I think there are some people who would be concerned about voter priavcy in a system where mail-in ballots are manditory.

In California, any voter can request to be added to the permanent absentee ballot list to have their ballot mailed to them each election. Permanent absentee ballot is automatically cancelled if the voter fails to submit a ballot. Several years ago, California voters who are not disabled could not be added to the permanent absentee ballot list (but could submit a request for absentee ballot individualy for each election). I was not aware than any states do not offer voters the option of absentee ballot.

accolay

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2017, 01:26:27 PM »
While we're at it with this hypothetical discussion that would never happen, how about no gerrymandering, public financed campaigns and election "season" limited to four weeks only, nothing before?

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2017, 02:02:17 PM »
Universal suffrage has thus far been a good thing. Though it's been around for a historically short period of time...we're talking mid-1800s, maybe the Jacksonian era depending on how you define it. If I were around for the Progressive era, I would NOT support the popular election of Senators, but that seems to have been a positive change (or at least neutral).

I'm worried for the near future. Looks like we're going to have President Camacho and the House of Representin' in a few decades. Our system probably cannot handle that degree of corrosion in the republican virtue.

Mandatory voting, IMO, is anti-democratic, and 16 year olds aren't smart enough to vote. Hell, 18 year olds aren't smart enough to vote, but it's absolutely improper to register someone for a draft and then declare they have no say on political outcomes.

Blonde Lawyer

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2017, 02:12:09 PM »
While I personally favor anything that makes voting easier, like mail-in ballots, there are actually studies that say such measures REDUCE voter turn out.

If you have something you can do "when you get around to it" you often won't ever do it.  If it is something you have to make a priority and attend to like "stop at the polls on the way to work" you are more apt to actually do it. 

It's counter-intuitive.

dividendman

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2017, 02:20:17 PM »
I think Floridians shouldn't be allowed to vote.

dividendman

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2017, 02:36:17 PM »
Actually, I've given it more thought and I think the following people shouldn't be allowed to vote:

1) Anyone who donates to a campaign, PAC, Super-PAC, etc.
2) Anyone who is an officer or director of a corporation that does 1)
3) Anyone running for any office
4) Any member of the judiciary
5) Anyone who has been convicted of a hate-crime (had a harsher sentence due to hate crime)
6) Any political appointee
7) Anyone who works for any political campaign, PAC, super-pac, etc.
8) Dual citizens
9) Anyone who donates to, or works for, a foreign government

JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2017, 02:36:38 PM »
4. Switzerland has a system in which there are elected professional politicians on one side, and then compulsory and temporary "house of citizens" on the other side where citizens who qualify are basically conscripted to due their duty for a term of 2 years. I like this idea. Any Swiss out there that can explain this system better?

Isn't that pretty much how the House and Senate are supposed to work? Representatives are supposed to be just that, ordinary citizens who represent the population of their district for a couple of years and then go home.

In our current system, most of the current house of representatives are millionaires, which I believe makes them "unrepresentative" of the general population.

I'd have the the candidates for the house of citizens be picked randomly from a hat in each district (maybe with a qualifier that you at least have a high school degree).

JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2017, 02:40:41 PM »
All I'll say is that the idea "if we could just get more people voting, things would be better" is severely misguided.

Why? You never explain why this would be a bad thing.

I don't know your reasoning, and I disagree with your conclusion. Voting for a lot of people may be the ONLY way they have any say at all in what happens to them in our society.

We should encourage everyone to vote just like some companies get people to contribute to their 401K automatically, and have them "opt-out" if so desired. Organ donation while applying for a driver's license is another example.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 02:47:02 PM by JustGettingStarted1980 »

Blonde Lawyer

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2017, 03:35:45 PM »
Anyone who works for the judiciary is really broad.  Can you explain more about that? If you are just worried about separation of powers, could you limit it to just judges? As written, for example, you would be excluding federal probation officers and random mail clerks for the court.

Zamboni

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2017, 03:40:47 PM »
Actually, I've given it more thought and I think the following people shouldn't be allowed to vote:

1) Anyone who donates to a campaign, PAC, Super-PAC, etc.
2) Anyone who is an officer or director of a corporation that does 1)
3) Anyone running for any office
4) Any member of the judiciary
5) Anyone who has been convicted of a hate-crime (had a harsher sentence due to hate crime)
6) Any political appointee
7) Anyone who works for any political campaign, PAC, super-pac, etc.
8) Dual citizens
9) Anyone who donates to, or works for, a foreign government

Although I'm generally in favor of everyone voting, this list (especially the top 3) makes good sense to me. AKA if you are PAYING for the election of a certain candidate or running yourself, no vote for you. Of course, there would just be corrupt loopholes to get around this and hide the identity of the donors (it already happens), but as a pipe dream, it is a good one.

Quote
Why would we want people voting who haven't educated themselves on the candidates and issues.

Ummmm, we already have that.

dividendman

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2017, 04:17:52 PM »
Anyone who works for the judiciary is really broad.  Can you explain more about that? If you are just worried about separation of powers, could you limit it to just judges? As written, for example, you would be excluding federal probation officers and random mail clerks for the court.

Yeah I meant judges.

Yes Zamboni, I chose my list looking for obvious corruption/conflict of interest. Yes, I realize my list would require disclosure of anyone who is part of all of these groups, and I think that's a benefit of the list :)

I would also add

10) All members of the FEC - although this may also be covered in 6) i.e. political appointees.

Norioch

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2017, 05:24:25 PM »
It's unconscionable to require people to take off work on a Tuesday (why on Earth is election day still on Tuesday?) and drive 270 miles to wait in line for hours at a poll to vote.
Where does this happen? There should be many more polling places if anyone lives 270 miles from their polling place and the polling place has hours long wait lines.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-pol-nevada-ballot-journey-20161028-story.html

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2017, 05:59:57 PM »
We call it "compulsory voting" in Australia, but no one is actually compelled to vote. Australian citizens are required to attend and get the name crossed off the electoral roll and receive a ballot... what they do from that point forward is totally up to each individual. There are a lot of rude pictures drawn on ballots here.  I think knowing that you have to participate keeps you more plugged in to the issues of the day.

No votes for gingers? Hmmm... how is that going to be measured?  How much ginge can one have before they get stripped of their vote?


My $0.02 as the OP:

1. I think compulsory voting is a great idea. I think it forces people to vote for their own interests (emotional or financial). I agree with AlliElli that they can simply vote "none of the above" if they don't care.
People demonstrably do not vote in their own self-interest. People deluded that aggregating the votes from the masses yields a wisdom of the crowd result ignore the fact that (typically) deciding how to vote is an irrational process that is based on biases and self-signalling of virtues. Because many biases are correlated throughout the electorate, the result of an election is an amplification of noise, rather that of signal (cf. 2016 US Presidential Election: Trump).

It's also questionable that people voting on the basis of narrow self-interest would produce outcomes that are any better than the present system (but that's a whole other topic!).

Driftwood

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2017, 05:23:58 AM »
Forcing people to vote seems like a perversion of democracy to my eyes.

I agree.

However, it **is** one of the primary duties of a regular citizen.

I have zero problem instituting a "bad citizenship tax" that is assessed if the citizen does not vote and does not have a reasonable reason why they did not.  I suggest $100 per month since the last election the citizen was allowed to vote in.

 This would have the benefit of making primary elections more costly to skip than general elections.   A greater turnout of regular folks would be more likely to dilute the bat-shit crazy wings of both US parties.

I think you'd have a problem with the result of your suggested tax after you see people showing up to avoid the tax and 'voting' by picking whatever gets them out of the ballet box the quickest. 

I have a similar reaction to mandatory surveys at work... I complete them as quickly as possible, often with sarcasm and outright comments making fun of the stupid quesitons as a way to rebel against being forced to participate in a stupid survey.
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KBecks

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2017, 06:32:37 AM »
It's unconscionable to require people to take off work on a Tuesday (why on Earth is election day still on Tuesday?) and drive 270 miles to wait in line for hours at a poll to vote.
Where does this happen? There should be many more polling places if anyone lives 270 miles from their polling place and the polling place has hours long wait lines.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-pol-nevada-ballot-journey-20161028-story.html

The population of Duckwater, Nevada is 228, and some will be minors.  Mail in voting is available to all who live there.


Gondolin

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2017, 07:53:11 AM »
Quote
In our current system, most of the current house of representatives are millionaires, which I believe makes them "unrepresentative" of the general population.

Members of Congress have *always* had much higher than average wealth. The intention was always to ensure that well educated gentlemen held the reins, not the average person. Senators were not even directly elected until 1917.
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dividendman

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2017, 08:16:47 AM »
Quote
In our current system, most of the current house of representatives are millionaires, which I believe makes them "unrepresentative" of the general population.

Members of Congress have *always* had much higher than average wealth. The intention was always to ensure that well educated gentlemen held the reins, not the average person. Senators were not even directly elected until 1917.

Just because something has always been the case doesn't mean it's good.

Gondolin

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2017, 09:01:59 AM »
Quote
Just because something has always been the case doesn't mean it's good.

The original question was regarding how Congress was "supposed" to work. The historical answer to that question was "No. Not in theory and certainty not in practice". Value judgements about the correct balance between populist representation and educated, genteel leadership were not made.
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JustGettingStarted1980

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2017, 10:04:58 AM »
We call it "compulsory voting" in Australia, but no one is actually compelled to vote. Australian citizens are required to attend and get the name crossed off the electoral roll and receive a ballot... what they do from that point forward is totally up to each individual. There are a lot of rude pictures drawn on ballots here.  I think knowing that you have to participate keeps you more plugged in to the issues of the day.

No votes for gingers? Hmmm... how is that going to be measured?  How much ginge can one have before they get stripped of their vote?


My $0.02 as the OP:

1. I think compulsory voting is a great idea. I think it forces people to vote for their own interests (emotional or financial). I agree with AlliElli that they can simply vote "none of the above" if they don't care.

People demonstrably do not vote in their own self-interest.

I know we are all financial geeks here on MMM Forum, but I would like to remind everyone that Financial Interests are not the same as someone's EMOTIONAL Interests. You can vote for your emotional interests (Pro-Gun, Pro-Life, Pro-Religion, Pro-Freedom), while at the same time voting against your financial interests (Tax Cut for the rich at the expense of Healthcare, Medicaid, Medicare, SSI, etc...). One reason for voting, in my opinion, is no less valid than the other.

prognastat

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Re: Should Some US Voters Not Be Allowed To Vote?
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2017, 10:05:58 AM »
Anyone who disagrees with me shouldn't be able to vote. /sarcasm

Most of my political issues aren't really with who and who doesn't vote.

I think we should make voting as easy as possible, due to this I believe we should make it a paid holiday so people don't have to get approved for the day or take a financial loss to allow themselves to vote. At the same time I am not a huge proponent of saying everyone "should" vote. I am much more of a fan of advocating people vote when they have spent time looking into the candidates and are making at least a somewhat considered decision. If you aren't at all invested in politics, you haven't read up on the party plans, watched some of the debates, do you just vote for a party because your parents/family/friends all do then should you vote? I don't think you should and we shouldn't advocate that people in that situation should.  We should advocate that people that they should get at least involved enough to get a decent idea of what the candidates currently running are and then yes you should vote.

So when it comes down to anyone should be able to vote and with as few as possible hurdles, but we shouldn't advocate people voting unless they have done at least some effort to educate themselves on the candidates and their policies.

There are plenty of bigger political issues as far as first past the post leading to only two parties being viable and limiting realistic competition. Money in politics is another huge issue.