Author Topic: should i buy an electric car?  (Read 10548 times)

kk1

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should i buy an electric car?
« on: July 13, 2013, 07:02:10 PM »
ok so the load down is that we got solar panels last year and it's generating more electricity than we need...the rebate just made sense for us to do it like that.
So I got a 03 camry with 122K miles and my fiance has a 03 cooper 55K on it. So my commute to work is about 40 miles round trip. Yes it's not very MMM but we're not paying the mortgage because we are renting the house with us living in it.  The camry is starting to have some problems for an old car and this problem that i'm kind of concerned about but I can't find the solution online... may be you all are great with cars to see you guys' advise on it: I can drive the car no problem, all the gears work but when I put the car in reverse and start to back up, the car starts jerking like it doesn't have enough gas put into it when changing gears on a manual car(my car is an automatic though). It would stutter like when you first learn how to drive a manual and you are changing gears but you're not stepping on the gas pedal enough - jerking back and forth feeling. The car does NOT stall though.
Anyway, so my fiance and I had this argument about getting an electric car since we have excess electricity from the house. But we haven't got far enough to look up which electric car would be best either.
Any thoughts?

BC_Goldman

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2013, 08:46:05 PM »
You'd have to do the math to see if an electric car is worth it. My suspicion is that a hybrid, especially used, would be a better deal. Also check out the C1 prototype that Lit Motors is working on bringing to production. All electric car/motorcycle hybrid that is basically impossible to tip, even when stopped,  thanks to the gyro system. Some cool stuff in the demo videos.

Left

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2013, 09:17:38 PM »
have you done a tune up on the camry? I hadn't for a while and found one of my spark plugs were broken so I was running on 3 cylinders instead of 4 and I had the car jerking because of it. If you can get the camry fixed, it might be better to consider switching the cooper out though. I've heard they are expensive to repair. Fairly reliable but still...

replacing the spark plugs and the plugs/wires are fairly easy if you haven't done it before. it just involves unhooking the wires from engine then pulling plug end out of cylinder. get a wrench into the cylinder to unscrew the spark plug and put in new one and screw back in. Then replace the wire/plug with new one and you're done
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 10:48:30 PM by eyem »

BC_Goldman

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2013, 09:33:48 PM »
Word of advice on spark plugs or anything that involves threading: hand tighten to start. Its possible to misalign and then cross thread if you just crank it down with a wrench. Very bad thing to do on something like an engine.

Jamesqf

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2013, 10:47:26 PM »
If the commute is most of your driving, and you can use your SO's car for longer trips, I'd say you were a good match for the Nissan Leaf.  The question is whether you want to spend that much on any new car, electric or not.  Your other options are to repair the Camry (check Toyota forums for help figuring out what's causing the problem), or replace it with a much cheaper used car.

cdub

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2013, 11:21:30 PM »
The Leaf is the best car I've ever owned - I love it.

prodarwin

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2013, 11:25:53 PM »
If the commute is most of your driving, and you can use your SO's car for longer trips, I'd say you were a good match for the Nissan Leaf.  The question is whether you want to spend that much on any new car, electric or not.  Your other options are to repair the Camry (check Toyota forums for help figuring out what's causing the problem), or replace it with a much cheaper used car.

This.  Fix the Camry. 

There is no scenario right now where a 2011+ electric car will be cheaper to own than a 2003 Camry.

Daley

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2013, 09:08:42 AM »
Another in the camp of repair over replace.

Also, I'm just going to leave this link to an article on electric cars for you and others to read and ponder upon: Unclean at Any Speed

As a final gut punch as hybrids have been mentioned... I don't exactly agree with every last point, and the tone is so combative and superlative that it makes MMM read like A.A. Milne, but have a link to Dedoimedo's Hybrid cars are massive bollocks!

Spare electricity generation or not, if you refuse to give up the mobile La-Z-Boy but you're serious about reducing emissions and environmental impact through the purchase of another car (which in itself does no favors, thus repair over replace), don't look to hybrid or electric vehicles. Consider replacing with a turbo diesel sub-compact with a manual transmission instead, or a motorcycle, and sell the extra electricity back to your power company.

I'll finish off with the following quote from the first article:
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Upon closer consideration, moving from petroleum-fueled vehicles to electric cars begins to look more and more like shifting from one brand of cigarettes to another. We wouldn’t expect doctors to endorse such a thing. Should environmentally minded people really revere electric cars? Perhaps we should look beyond the shiny gadgets now being offered and revisit some less sexy but potent options—smog reduction, bike lanes, energy taxes, and land-use changes to start. Let’s not be seduced by high-tech illusions.

sol

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2013, 04:11:46 PM »
IPD, both of those articles were disappointingly inaccurate.

The first says that making electric cars is environmentally damaging, but seems to neglect the environmental damage caused by making regular cars.  It also completely misses the mark for places like the PNW where 80% of our electricity already comes from renewables, when it talks about how dirty power generation for electric vehicles is.

The second is written by a climate change denier.  I don't typically accept advice from people who don't recognize the validity of the scientific method, regardless of the colorful expletives they may utilize.

They both suggest people consider walking or biking, which is fine advice.  But people are still going to drive cars, and "drive a dirty car less often" is less than helpful advice when applied to the nation as a whole. 

Neither article addressed the localized impacts of air pollution from combustion.  Even in a coal state where all electricity is dirty,  it is pollution produced out at the coal power plant and not produced in your child's school's parking lot.  There are significant health advantages, particularly for NOx and particulates, of simply moving that pollution out of our neighborhoods and off of our street corners.   

Current electric cars are far from perfect.  But for the typical American driver, they're a better option than almost every gasoline powered vehicle they would otherwise consider.

Daley

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2013, 05:30:28 PM »
IPD, both of those articles were disappointingly inaccurate.

Sol, I'd like to point out you're allowing your own personal biases to skew your reading of both linked articles to the point where you've missed the major take-aways: carbon emissions is not everything.

1) Electric cars - The source of electricity generation is a relatively insignificant part of the electric vehicle's overall total pollution impact within its lifetime, especially when you measure the complete environmental impact of the "fuel" creation itself (no matter the source, even renewables). Yes, traditional combustion vehicles produce pollutants in their production as well, but nowhere near the levels that are involved with the toxic, rare-earth mineral mining and more exotic materials needed to make electric vehicles operational at all, let alone efficient enough to operate, and operational as a fleet long-term given batteries wear out. Pollution is pollution, and just because it's no longer happening in your own backyard and has been exported off to another part of the country or world is an incredibly elitist and narrow-minded approach to environmentalism.

2) Hybrid cars - To hand-wave away the entire argument based on personal politics while completely ignoring basic engineering principles is no better than letting personal politics color and skew the scientific method and evidence regarding climate change. I said it myself, I don't agree with every last point made, but the core of the argument is solid. Trying to engineer a more efficient vehicle should never involve making it more mechanically complex and heavier, while adding in even more toxic, polluting and costly to mine and produce materials.

I am a firm believer in true, solid, scientifically driven ecology and that I'm interested in doing the right thing from an environmental standpoint... just like everything else, I tend to try and view the entire picture, not just the immediate. Complex electric technology is not the answer to making the car less polluting, it's just smoke and mirrors to hide the brunt of pollution from the average consumer. The problem is the automobile, in any form, and it doesn't change the reality that if one must utilize individual powered transit, motorcycles and sub-compact turbo diesel cars will cause less total damage than gasoline, ethanol, hybrid and electric vehicles. They're all wretched polluters, and yes some are less so... but the best and most environmentally friendly of the lot aren't the models that "burn wind and sunshine".
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 05:33:51 PM by I.P. Daley »

xocotl

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2013, 06:21:12 PM »
Trying to engineer a more efficient vehicle should never involve making it more mechanically complex and heavier, while adding in even more toxic, polluting and costly to mine and produce materials.

That seems just as overly simplistic as the people who ignore environmental impacts of production of a hybrid powertrain. If using more polluting materials to produce a vehicle reduces the fuel consumption, given that both mining and gasoline production harm the environment there must exist some ratio of material used to reduced fuel consumption at which the tradeoff makes sense. Current hybrids or electric vehicles may not be on the right side of that tradeoff, but to say that engineering a more efficient vehicle should never involve making it more mechanically complex and heavier is blatantly wrong.

sol

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2013, 06:27:42 PM »
carbon emissions is not everything.

Everything?  Definitely not.  But neither are they inconsequential.

Just do the math your self rather than believing articles that don't show any.  An average midsize car will burn about 600 gallons of fuel per year.  The energy costs to make a new car are not tiny, but even the worse estimates I could find online add up to less than the equivalent of 1000 gallons of gas (and I'd be interested to see what someone else might come up with independently).  So it looks to me like over the average 8 year lifespan of a new car, far more than half of the total energy requirement go to fuel, not manufacture. 

Please, somebody check my math.

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1) Electric cars - The source of electricity generation is a relatively insignificant part of the electric vehicle's overall total pollution impact

I think I just addressed this.

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nowhere near the levels that are involved with the toxic, rare-earth mineral mining

Rare earth metal mining is only dirty because China is doing most of it.  That same mining done here in the states, and subject to our environmental laws, isn't any worse than mining iron or copper or anything else that goes into ordinary cars.

A common oversight in both of these articles is that they're extrapolating into the future from current values.  Nobody believes that electric cars will never get any better than they are today.  Nobody believes that rare earth mining will always be as dirty as it was in the 90s.

Quote
Pollution is pollution, and just because it's no longer happening in your own backyard and has been exported off to another part of the country or world is an incredibly elitist and narrow-minded approach to environmentalism.

It's not elitism to want to concentrate your pollution in places where there are no people.  It's why we build chimneys.  And nuclear waste repositories and garbage dumps and wastewater treatment plants.  Society benefits when we optimize processes that generate ugliness.

Quote
2) Hybrid cars - To hand-wave away the entire argument based on personal politics while completely ignoring basic engineering principles is no better than...

You're reciting the article's admonishments, which don't apply to me.  I didn't hand wave or say anything about hybrids.  Don't get so caught up in the text that you regurgitate it inappropriately.  It's not a bible.

The basic advice of both articles is "drive a gas car, just drive a smaller one and drive it less often."  Great advice for individuals, totally useless to the nation as a whole. 

Every frugal forum member should embrace it, but America isn't going to abandon full sized pickup trucks to save the environment.  If we mandate those trucks to get 54mpg (the 2025 fuel efficiency goal) then we save the environment without forcing anybody with a big belt buckle to feel like he's sacrificing his liberties to save the spotted owls that put Uncle Bubba in the poorhouse and drove him to drink.

The politics of these things is far too complex for simple advice like "drive less" to be a viable solution on a national scale.  Baby steps for now.

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but the core of the argument is solid. Trying to engineer a more efficient vehicle should never involve making it more mechanically complex and heavier,

Was that a serious argument?

So we never shoudl have engineered automobiles because they're more complex than horses?  You know, that polio vaccine was WAY more complex than just letting people get polio.  And those new fangled gas power plants, surely all that added clean burning efficiency is just wasted complexity and spare parts. 

As a technical man yourself, I'm shocked to hear you espouse the theory that complex technical systems are inferior.  Jet engines vs props.  Fuel injection vs carbs.  Wifi vs fm radio.  FormulaOne cars vs stock.  The list is kind of convincing, to me.

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The problem is the automobile, in any form, and it doesn't change the reality that if one must utilize individual powered transit, motorcycles and sub-compact turbo diesel cars will cause less total damage than gasoline

I think this is a truism that was well hidden in those articles.  Almost nothing is as efficient as a bicycle, and good for your body to boot.  Cars are admittedly an evil, but they are an evil we have chosen and embraced. 

Our capitalist society isn't interested in solutions that don't make somebody rich, so rather than reverting to cheap as free ultra clean pedal power we make expensive new technologies to clean up the messes from our previous technologies.  This isn't an indictment of electric cars, which is what's presented in those articles, it's an indictment of our economic system.

Jamesqf

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2013, 06:38:12 PM »
There is no scenario right now where a 2011+ electric car will be cheaper to own than a 2003 Camry.

Sure, but cheap isn't everything :-)

The second is written by a climate change denier.  I don't typically accept advice from people who don't recognize the validity of the scientific method, regardless of the colorful expletives they may utilize.

Dammit, we're agreeing on something?

...nowhere near the levels that are involved with the toxic, rare-earth mineral mining and more exotic materials needed to make electric vehicles operational at all, let alone efficient enough to operate, and operational as a fleet long-term given batteries wear out.

Which is where that article, and you, are flat-out wrong.  First off, mining so-called "rare earth metals" (which actually aren't all that rare) is no more inherently toxic than mining anything else, say the lead in your conventional automobile battery.

Second, are you under the impression that all the other parts that go into a car don't wear?  The average age of the US automobile fleet is only a bit over 10 years.  Batteries used in hybrids easily last that long - mine's going on 13 years now.  It's also a pretty decent rebuttal to the claim that hybrids aren't more efficient than IC-only cars.  Is there any non-hybrid car on the market today that gets better than my 71.4 mpg?

So we never shoudl have engineered automobiles because they're more complex than horses?

Sorry, but that one really made me laugh.  You don't know a heck of a lot about horses, do you?  They're WAY more complex than any automobile.  Just ask my friend here:
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 07:12:34 PM by Jamesqf »

Daley

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2013, 07:46:05 PM »
Trying to engineer a more efficient vehicle should never involve making it more mechanically complex and heavier, while adding in even more toxic, polluting and costly to mine and produce materials.

That seems just as overly simplistic as the people who ignore environmental impacts of production of a hybrid powertrain. If using more polluting materials to produce a vehicle reduces the fuel consumption, given that both mining and gasoline production harm the environment there must exist some ratio of material used to reduced fuel consumption at which the tradeoff makes sense. Current hybrids or electric vehicles may not be on the right side of that tradeoff, but to say that engineering a more efficient vehicle should never involve making it more mechanically complex and heavier is blatantly wrong.

More mechanically complex? Okay, I'll buy that extra performance could be eked out of a more complex machine... but HEAVIER? Unless the whole world re-engineered every last street on the planet to roll vehicles downhill both directions, additional weight will be a liability on efficiency. You've also ignored the completeness of the qualifiers in my statement and picked at portions. Any engineering advancements made that may make hybrids more efficient will impact regular electric or traditional gas/diesel vehicles equally. Hybrids are, and will remain, a sledgehammer approach designed to address the realities of terrible engineering with even more terrible engineering.



I'll try to keep things brief, Sol. I think once more we're both on the same side, but looking at things differently.

A common oversight in both of these articles is that they're extrapolating into the future from current values.  Nobody believes that electric cars will never get any better than they are today.  Nobody believes that rare earth mining will always be as dirty as it was in the 90s.

Yes, but approaching the "future" and "current" issues the way most people do is what keeps getting us in trouble environmentally. People ignore right now with pollutants produced in current manufacture, and people ignore the future when dealing with the necessary clean-up with the environmental consequences of incorrect disposal of these things. Instead, all the talking points are about how "these things will be cleaner tomorrow" and "by supporting the technology now, it'll make the world a better place." Right now, the sources for these raw materials are polluting the environment heavily because they still aren't clean and car manufacturers are putting profit over environmental impact, and in the future, we still have to safely decommission these things so they don't continue to pollute the environment.

Quote
Quote
Pollution is pollution, and just because it's no longer happening in your own backyard and has been exported off to another part of the country or world is an incredibly elitist and narrow-minded approach to environmentalism.

It's not elitism to want to concentrate your pollution in places where there are no people.  It's why we build chimneys.  And nuclear waste repositories and garbage dumps and wastewater treatment plants.  Society benefits when we optimize processes that generate ugliness.

And if that pollution were truly being condensed down and completely contained in unpopulated areas, I'd have less of a problem with it. However, it isn't. There's also a flip side to this argument and an ignored point. We're just shunting off more stuff for future generations to have to eventually deal with with this approach, and there's a dark side to condensing your pollution... especially when nature repeatedly proves itself more powerful than anything a human can engineer. Pollution will build, it has to go somewhere, it's expensive to store properly, and its containment can be breached.

Quote
Quote
2) Hybrid cars - To hand-wave away the entire argument based on personal politics while completely ignoring basic engineering principles is no better than...

You're reciting the article's admonishments, which don't apply to me.  I didn't hand wave or say anything about hybrids.  Don't get so caught up in the text that you regurgitate it inappropriately.  It's not a bible.

Forgive the miscommunication. You expressed ignoring advice from a climate change denier, I interpreted it as dismissing a reasonably sound argument against hybrids. As for your statement of regurgitation? In hindsight, I can see how you might interpret it that way, but it was not my intention to do so. Our entire back and forth on this point alone is highly ironic in a very meta sort of way.

Quote
The basic advice of both articles is "drive a gas car, just drive a smaller one and drive it less often."  Great advice for individuals, totally useless to the nation as a whole.

Every frugal forum member should embrace it, but America isn't going to abandon full sized pickup trucks to save the environment.  If we mandate those trucks to get 54mpg (the 2025 fuel efficiency goal) then we save the environment without forcing anybody with a big belt buckle to feel like he's sacrificing his liberties to save the spotted owls that put Uncle Bubba in the poorhouse and drove him to drink.

The politics of these things is far too complex for simple advice like "drive less" to be a viable solution on a national scale.  Baby steps for now.

It's still a message that should be seriously stated even on a national and even global scale, the sooner the better. It also means we need to better embrace within our own community the fact that electrics and hybrids are not an appropriate solution if we're going to look towards that bigger "socially responsible" picture and beyond just the financial bottom line. These things at best are like replacing Camel Unfiltered with Marlboro Reds. You're sucking down less particulates now, but they're still gonna kill you.

Quote
Quote
but the core of the argument is solid. Trying to engineer a more efficient vehicle should never involve making it more mechanically complex and heavier,

Was that a serious argument?

So we never shoudl have engineered automobiles because they're more complex than horses?  You know, that polio vaccine was WAY more complex than just letting people get polio.  And those new fangled gas power plants, surely all that added clean burning efficiency is just wasted complexity and spare parts. 

As a technical man yourself, I'm shocked to hear you espouse the theory that complex technical systems are inferior.  Jet engines vs props.  Fuel injection vs carbs.  Wifi vs fm radio.  FormulaOne cars vs stock.  The list is kind of convincing, to me.

See above response to Xocotl.

Quote
Quote
The problem is the automobile, in any form, and it doesn't change the reality that if one must utilize individual powered transit, motorcycles and sub-compact turbo diesel cars will cause less total damage than gasoline

I think this is a truism that was well hidden in those articles.  Almost nothing is as efficient as a bicycle, and good for your body to boot.  Cars are admittedly an evil, but they are an evil we have chosen and embraced. 

Our capitalist society isn't interested in solutions that don't make somebody rich, so rather than reverting to cheap as free ultra clean pedal power we make expensive new technologies to clean up the messes from our previous technologies.  This isn't an indictment of electric cars, which is what's presented in those articles, it's an indictment of our economic system.

Yes, it's an indictment... but I feel it goes far deeper than our cars or even our economic system down to the very core of us as a society. Technology doesn't fix any of this, it just puts it off. Someday, we'll run out of cute engineering tricks and have to face the snowballing charlie foxtrot we've created by indulging this behavior for so long.... unfortunately, I can see having to pay that price within our lifetime.

Daley

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2013, 08:07:06 PM »
It's also a pretty decent rebuttal to the claim that hybrids aren't more efficient than IC-only cars.  Is there any non-hybrid car on the market today that gets better than my 71.4 mpg?

Not currently, but when people can push a 1998 Geo Metro close to 100MPG, one has to wonder what the auto manufacturers could actually do with a car running an internal combustion engine if they only spent near the same amount of time and engineering resources that they've pushed towards hybrids and electrics this past decade. I'd also like to point out Bakari's truck. There is clearly a great deal of room for improvement and efficiency in its application if it got anywhere near the same level of love and attention...

dragoncar

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2013, 08:20:23 PM »
Another vote for keeping the camry.  The real question is what to do with the extra electricity coming off the solar panels.  How much extra are we talking, in dollar amounts (assuming whatever $/kwh is typical in your area)?

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2013, 11:02:38 PM »
It's also a pretty decent rebuttal to the claim that hybrids aren't more efficient than IC-only cars.  Is there any non-hybrid car on the market today that gets better than my 71.4 mpg?
Still a hybrid but I've always liked the concept of compressed air more than electric cars :D
http://www.livescience.com/26508-peugeot-hybrid-compressed-air.html
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This unique hybrid system will give the passenger car a whopping 117 mpg (2 liters per 100 kilometers)
but it's a moot point, they aren't more than concept cars at the moment and can't be bought in US at least from what I can tell :(

Micheal

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2013, 02:19:10 AM »
And back on topic to your actual question, repair the car unless doing so would cost more than the car is worth.  There is a chance you have a busted reverse gear in the tranny, if so then it's not long until you lose the whole thing, a mechanic can diagnose this easily for you though.  It could also just be a sensor or other electric doodad.  Instead of an expensive electric car, you might also look into a diesel car which in my experience has comparable milage to most hybrid cars.  Sadly if you live in the united states if you get stranded in a pure electric car it's not easy to find a place to re-charge, and they can get expensive to repair.

prodarwin

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2013, 09:23:36 AM »


Not currently, but when people can push a 1998 Geo Metro close to 100MPG, one has to wonder what the auto manufacturers could actually do with a car running an internal combustion engine if they only spent near the same amount of time and engineering resources that they've pushed towards hybrids and electrics this past decade. I'd also like to point out Bakari's truck. There is clearly a great deal of room for improvement and efficiency in its application if it got anywhere near the same level of love and attention...
[/quote]

There is also a great deal of compromise that the general public won't accept.

A mid-90s metro achieved "high"** fuel economy numbers but being a stripped out, low power, low feature feature car.  I can respect that, but most of the public isn't going to buy it.  Instead they buy a Prius, which returns better economy with far more practicality, comfort and performance.

** Under the new system its only 37/44, which isn't really that high.

Anyway.  2 things you seem to continuously overlook: 

A)  The higher-weight problem is not a result of an attempt to improve efficiency.  Its a result of crash safety standards that counter-act the fuel economy standards.  This is the reason that the new CAFE stanards involve a weighted footprint when calculating effiency of the vehicle.

B)  Hybrids (of any sort) that can address regenerative braking are always going to be more efficient than an IC-only car of the otherwise same design.

kk1

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2013, 09:36:59 AM »
Thanks for everyone's input!

yes - tune up had been done to the camry throughout its life. I put synthetic oil too(yes regular oil vs. synthetic oil debate I'm aware...). I try to really take care of this camry because I was expecting to drive it to the ground. And just FYI my position is to keep the camry if the repairs are not that bad. Fiance thinks it's the transmission though.

Didn't expect to get solar panels though(comment, not trying to start a debate here - regarding polluting the environment - apparently in the solar panels producing industry, there is a debate about cost vs. benefit on producing solar panels because of the highly toxic chemicals that is required to make solar cells. I was told by my sister who is an chemical Engingeer in the field. Huh, yes, I still got solar panels and MMM also feels solar panel benefits more than the cost).

I did look at the Nissan Leaf. Only got 75 miles per charge and that's from Nissan's own website... oh goodness... So I probably need to charge it every other day or more than that since my commute is approx 40 miles round trip(ok 19.2 miles 1 way per google maps)? Not that I want to buy a brand new car but the lowest Leaf is $21,300 which includes the $7,500 federal rebate. I looked on craigslist, older models are 17K, 18K...etc from "list by dealer" but unsure if that includes the federal rebate or not.
So we did some calculations - conservative side wise, I probably spend $2600 on gas just for camry alone. Assuming selling the carmy, nets (didn't look at the market value YET) $5000. $21,300-$5000 = $16,300 and if I buy the older models off of craigslist then it's even lower cost. I won't be paying gas at all so divide by $2600. Then again the electric car's technology would probably be exponentially better in the next few years(at least not just going 75 miles per charge... and another thing is that it's lithium-ion battery http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/v12/n6/full/nmat3623.html)
Hybrids may be an idea, but don't I still need to buy gas?

cdub - You own a Nissan Leaf. How's it defer from regular gas car's repair? I haven't done the research in terms of how easy it is to DIY maintaince on an electric car.

dragoncar - this year alone, electric bill is approx -$650. I have to be on the grid with the city for about 4 more years to satisfy the contract between city and me(it was required to get the city rebate). Then after that I can buy a battery cell to store the electricity.

Anyone, any ideas for the use of excess electricity?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 11:42:00 AM by kk1 »

Spudd

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2013, 10:03:17 AM »
I know in some places you can sell it back to the utility. Is that the case in your area?

kk1

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2013, 10:42:21 AM »
Yes at first program allowed that (which was how we got enticed into it), then somehow, it changed and not anymore, unfortunately.
We had to re-read the contract - got a clause in there saying program subject to change and we have to follow it or not we are breaking the contract and we have to pay them back blah blah blah(of course!).
Argh... 4 more years, we will be free from the contract.

cdub

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2013, 11:35:49 AM »


cdub - You own a Nissan Leaf. How's it defer from regular gas car's repair? I haven't done the research in terms of how easy it is to DIY maintaince on an electric car.



There's practically zero maintenance except for changing the wipers and rotating the tires. And a brake check - eventually but they should last long as the electric motor does regen for alot of the braking.

Only one moving part in the motor... no oil... no spark plugs... it does have some coolants but I haven't had to worry about that. There is an air filter that needs to be changed sometimes.

But that's about it. I probably spend maybe $30-40 a year in maintenance - maybe less. I'll have to check.

I have 25k miles on my car. It does a good 73 mile range via freeways if you don't go past 65mph. Using good hypermilling techniques you could probably get further than that if you live in a flat area - I have a lot of hills which is a hit to the range.

My commute is only 32 miles round trip so it is perfect for that. And no I can't move closer to my job since the location of my job changes every 6 months or so.

Jamesqf

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2013, 11:52:24 AM »
Not currently, but when people can push a 1998 Geo Metro close to 100MPG, one has to wonder what the auto manufacturers could actually do with a car running an internal combustion engine if they only spent near the same amount of time and engineering resources that they've pushed towards hybrids and electrics this past decade.

Honestly, I think the manufacturers have devoted more engineering resources to increasing IC-engine efficiency.  The problem (besides the "I wanna BIG truck!" attitude that their marketing has created) is that they're up against the law of diminishing returns.

The problem is something called BSFC, or brake specific fuel consumption.  You can look it up if you want details, but basically IC engines don't turn fuel into motive power at a constant ratio.  The efficiency varies widely depending on load and RPM.  It takes far more power to accelerate a vehicle to speed than to travel at a constant speed, so you wind up facing the fact that to have acceptable acceleration & hill climbing, you have to have an engine that spends most of its time running at far less than optimum efficiency.

So you add the hybrid system which stores energy for those brief periods of acceleration, and recovers energy lost from braking, and you can downsize the IC engine and so get better mpg. 

As for the close-to-100-mpg Metro, people can push the Insight to well over 100 mpg, as here: http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1898  Helps if you live in the flatlands, though :-)

Rebecca Stapler

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2013, 01:23:24 PM »

Anyone, any ideas for the use of excess electricity?

Do you have a deep freezer? It would help reduce our grocery costs and daily cooking times if we had more freezer storage (I'm a big fan of once-a-month cooking, but don't have the freezer space for it currently)

kk1

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2013, 02:06:05 PM »
Stan - We don't have a deep freezer. That's a good idea to revisit; fiance and I looked into getting one before(before the solar panels). Cost was a little high but then again we don't know what's reasonable for a deep freezer like that.
We however have 2 fidges now and it's justified to have them because the place is rented with me and my fiance living in it - fridge space is needed but not a lot of people cook in this house except me and my fiance.

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2013, 11:22:01 AM »
Don't buy an Electric Car yet. Not until the electric motor wheel goes main stream. Google it. It's quite impressive technology that will revolutionize the electric auto industry.

4 small engines, electrically synced on all 4 wheels. You car becomes much much lighter.  These engines are very cheap, around $1k each.  Just as durable and long term lasting as the standard motor engine. Also no oil maintenance of any kind. A lot less moving mechanical parts, and just the occasional Big Battery check.


Jamesqf

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2013, 11:28:26 AM »
4 small engines, electrically synced on all 4 wheels. You car becomes much much lighter.

No, because 4 engines aren't going to weigh less than one producing the same power.  Besides, the weight of the hub motors is unsprung weight, which does not do good things for handling & ride quality. 

Quote
These engines are very cheap, around $1k each.

That's not exactly cheap.

Freeyourchains2

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2013, 11:52:45 AM »
4 small engines, electrically synced on all 4 wheels. You car becomes much much lighter.

No, because 4 engines aren't going to weigh less than one producing the same power.  Besides, the weight of the hub motors is unsprung weight, which does not do good things for handling & ride quality. 

Quote
These engines are very cheap, around $1k each.

Forgot to mention, you don't need a frame, steering linkage or any axles any more.

That's not exactly cheap.

kk1

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2013, 11:18:49 AM »
Anyone else have any ideas on what to do with the extra electricity?
Wonder if there is a way to sell the extra besides to the city...

Jamesqf

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2013, 11:54:12 AM »
Forgot to mention, you don't need a frame, steering linkage or any axles any more.

You certainly would need a frame & steering linkage.  You need something to (at minimum) hold the wheels in position and support the seats: that's a frame.  Moreover, unless you're willing to put up with a really rough ride, you need springs, shock absorbers, and all the other suspension components.  The actual axles are a minor part of that.

Now for steering, unless you're planning to only travel in straight lines, you'd better have some sort of steering mechanism.  I suppose you could do it by differential braking, as with a Cat (tracks) or Bobcat, but if you've ever operated one of those, or watched them at work, you'll have noticed that they skid.  In dirt this isn't much of a problem, but on pavement you go through tires real fast.

cdub

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2013, 11:56:20 AM »
Seems like a lot more moving parts and things that could go wrong. Tesla's model of the motor between the wheels is the way to go. It still achieves the same "skateboard" frame.

prodarwin

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2013, 12:29:26 PM »
Forgot to mention, you don't need a frame, steering linkage or any axles any more.

You certainly would need a frame & steering linkage.  You need something to (at minimum) hold the wheels in position and support the seats: that's a frame.  Moreover, unless you're willing to put up with a really rough ride, you need springs, shock absorbers, and all the other suspension components.  The actual axles are a minor part of that.

Now for steering, unless you're planning to only travel in straight lines, you'd better have some sort of steering mechanism.  I suppose you could do it by differential braking, as with a Cat (tracks) or Bobcat, but if you've ever operated one of those, or watched them at work, you'll have noticed that they skid.  In dirt this isn't much of a problem, but on pavement you go through tires real fast.

Steering linkages are also federally mandated.  BMW has developed and tested a steer-by-wire system (for safety reasons - no steering column necessary), but is unable to implement it due to regulations. 

(I agree with the federal regulations here)

Jamesqf

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2013, 01:31:38 PM »
Steering linkages are also federally mandated.  BMW has developed and tested a steer-by-wire system (for safety reasons - no steering column necessary), but is unable to implement it due to regulations.

Even a steer-by-wire system is still a linkage.  You would still need the ball joints &c for the wheels to pivot on, and some sort of actuator to turn them.

prodarwin

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2013, 02:00:37 PM »
True... I guess I meant a connection from the wheel front wheels all the way to the steering wheel.  With a steer by wire system it is possible to eliminate parts of that.

clutchy

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2013, 03:11:44 PM »
I would absolutely get an EV.

Leaf all the way.  Take the extra solar and drive on the sun.  40 miles round trip is completely within the safe zone of a leaf so you can drive any way you want without having to worry. 

I'm looking into a leaf myself.  I have a '99 maxima with 213K on the clock and I'm counting down till it dies. 

Depending on where you live the S model of the leaf can be pretty stinking cheap.  Couple that with the lack of gas costs and you'll be close-ish(maybe?) to breaking even and having a new car.


report back on your decision :)

Tony_SS

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2013, 04:04:16 PM »
Law of diminishing returns. I would not buy an electrical car, they are not feasible at this time.

Fix the Camry if it's not major, or sell it and cut your loss and move on to something else. Be careful, buying someone else's problem though.

Drew0311

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2017, 07:59:15 PM »
I sold my 2002 Camry that was completely paid off and purchased a 2013 Chevy Volt. The Camry cost me right around $200/ mo to operate. My commute is 28 miles each way and I can charge at work so I rarely have to use gasoline which provides a significant monthly savings. It really only costs about $50 more a month to drive a 2013 Volt rather than the old Camry, which was a great car. The ev's are definitely going to be the next generation and it going to be wonderful. I know I will never go back.

stream26

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2017, 11:15:27 AM »
I have a Volt  and I have to say the traction control is superb. The computer has full control over the motor output, so it has nearly perfect traction control. If needed it will throw some ABS at the wheels to help control side to side power distribution. Just mat it and go!

Just Joe

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2017, 12:27:51 PM »
Keep the Camry. Probably ignition related as previously suggested here. Spark plug or wire. Change the plugs when the engine is cold. I recommend the cheapest NGK plug.

Don't assume it is the transmission. A Camry is usually a 250K mile car (or longer). I have never heard of a gear failing in a Toyota commuter car. The clutches might wear out leading to a rebuild of the transmission but not a gear.

I suspect it you go to a shop and suggest expensive repairs they'll happily do them whether they are needed or not.

Take the KISS approach. Repair the easy cheap stuff first. Go to an auto parts store and have them run the codes (read the computer codes). Even if there is not a CEl light on, the computer might still have a stored code indicating a come and go problem.

Might be ignition problems (wires or spark plug). Might be an air filter. Might be a vacuum leak. Might be an EGR valve. Might be an injector that has failed. None of those things are expensive and you can replace all of them yourself.

I love the idea of owning an EV but IF you WANT to keep the Camry it ought to last many years with that few miles. Most of the Hondas I've owned have lasted beyond 300K miles. Toyota is just as durable in my opinion. Am currently wearing out a Chevy sedan a bit older than your car and even it is doing great with something a bit shy of 175K miles now.

Dave1442397

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2017, 02:35:01 PM »
Keep the Camry.

This thread is from 2013.

dragoncar

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2017, 03:17:49 PM »

sol

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2017, 03:19:03 PM »
Yes, this thread is four years old, but that's part of what makes it so interesting.  Take for example the following quote, which we all accepted as truth in 2013.

There is no scenario right now where a 2011+ electric car will be cheaper to own than a 2003 Camry.

And compare it to our modern understanding, in light of the brutal depreciation curve and negligible operating costs of 2011 EVs.  Today, a 2003 Camry and a 2011 Leaf are almost the same price (about $5k) but the Leaf will save you roughly a thousand dollars per year in fuel and maintenance costs.

Amazing what a few short years will do to an emerging technology, no?

Car Jack

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2017, 01:22:00 PM »
I'm very pragmatic.

40 miles round trip would work for a used Leaf.  Now, you say the panels produce more than you use.  But do you get paid by the supplier for energy put back into the grid?  If yes, then that shouldn't figure into it at all, unless they pay a very low rate.

Look at when the electric car will be home.  Hint....when the sun is down, it's home.  You don't get any benefit from solar if you are out driving around or at work with your little clean machine.

Fix the Camry.  There are a bazillion of them on the road.  Any mechanic is going to be able to keep it running.  Cheaper than getting another car, most likely.

Now I'll step on my soap box for those who stick out their chest and talk about how much cleaner electric cars are.  Yes, I know California is bringing in more solar than anywhere and that's great.  But the US on average produces 1/3 of its electricity from coal, still.  I tend to be snarky with puffed up chest Tesla owners and ask them how they like their coal burning car.....because that's sort of what it is.

I'm a big fan of a lot of technology of electric and hybrid cars.  Heck...the Honda CR-Z, the only hybrid with a manual transmission has regen braking and only uses the electric sparingly for power boosting.  It won't bore you into hanging yourself like a Prius will (I'm not even a fan of the boring FIT, so this isn't an electric or hybrid argument...I don't like boring cars).  It's only 2 doors but until someone else puts a proper manual in a hybrid, I'm not interested....although I would consider driving a McLaren P1.

zephyr911

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2017, 01:27:17 PM »
Having had two: YES. It's a better experience, if you value that sort of thing. Plus, the smugness. ;)

dragoncar

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2017, 01:42:23 PM »

Today, a 2003 Camry and a 2011 Leaf are almost the same price (about $5k) but the Leaf will save you roughly a thousand dollars per year in fuel and maintenance costs.


So this tells me that the depreciation on a Leaf is brutal.  Why is that?  Is it because you will have to spend $6k on a new battery soon? 

Batteries do degrade over time, so for me I'm not sure if an EV is worth it.  If your $6k battery lasts 100k miles, that's an extra $0.06/mile and could pencil out but I think it ends up being close to fossil fuels.  But if I only drive 30k miles over 10 years, then that's $0.20/mile, which obliterates the savings from even the cheapest electricity (e.g. my own solar panels).

The above numbers are illustrative -- I don't actually know if a battery lasts 100k miles or 10 years, but that's a pretty standard warranty I've seen.  You can also hope that battery prices will come down in the future, but there's no guarantee.

I've also read that in an accident the battery could be a very expensive repair but maybe that's just FUD.  In my own car, I think I'd have to scrap it if the air bags went off.

sol

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2017, 02:07:52 PM »

So this tells me that the depreciation on a Leaf is brutal.  Why is that?   

The most widely accepted answer to this question is "Tesla".

Electric vehicles are progressing at an amazing rate.  Every single model year, you can buy more range for less money.  A three year old Nissan Leaf is like a five year old smart phone, perfectly serviceable for what it is but noticeable inferior to modern versions of you look at the specs.

The new Chevy Bolt gets 238 miles per charge.  The upcoming Tesla 3 has something like 400k preorders and is sold out for years to come before the first one ever hits the streets.  Even the new Leaf puts the old ones to shame.  Depreciation has been brutal because the technology is moving so fast.

But for a city commuter car, or a family's second vehicle?  If you are only going to drive it around your home town and then take three seconds to plug it in every night, the ~80 mile range is a non-issue.  I only charge mine to 80% full, most nights, because that's still enough to make two round trips to work, if necessary, with enough left over for grocery shopping at the end of the day. 

Just Joe

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2017, 03:04:38 PM »
Yep I missed the date on the thread. Sorry...

sol

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Re: should i buy an electric car?
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2017, 03:29:34 PM »
Yep I missed the date on the thread. Sorry...

Don't feel bad. Thread necromancy is a forum bonus feature, not a bug.

 

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