Author Topic: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.  (Read 4921 times)

Wrenchturner

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Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« on: November 28, 2019, 03:27:25 PM »
"The Universities and Colleges Union has set out its stance in a report on the ongoing row about whether men should be able to self-identify as women and be treated as female regardless of their anatomy.

The UCU’s ‘position statement’ did not just stand by its support for self-identification of gender, but also insisted people can choose their own race, saying: ‘Our rules commit us to ending all forms of discrimination, bigotry and stereotyping. UCU has a long history of enabling members to self-identify whether that is being black, disabled, LGBT+ or women.'

Recognising ‘self-defined’ women as fully female is deeply controversial among many feminists and others. Theresa May’s Government considered changing the law to allow people to choose their own gender, but Ministers have put those plans on hold after a backlash from female voters.

Many female academics say they have faced harassment from students and activists for questioning trans-inclusive policies, and several high-profile female speakers including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray have been ‘no platformed’ from university debates for their refusal to accept that anyone who says they are a woman must be accepted as female."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7693927/Anyone-allowed-identify-black-according-Left-wing-university-lecturers.html

My answer: No.

Scandium

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2019, 04:46:07 PM »
My answer: who gives a shit.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2019, 05:27:03 PM »
"The Universities and Colleges Union has set out its stance in a report on the ongoing row about whether men should be able to self-identify as women and be treated as female regardless of their anatomy.

The UCU’s ‘position statement’ did not just stand by its support for self-identification of gender, but also insisted people can choose their own race, saying: ‘Our rules commit us to ending all forms of discrimination, bigotry and stereotyping. UCU has a long history of enabling members to self-identify whether that is being black, disabled, LGBT+ or women.'

Recognising ‘self-defined’ women as fully female is deeply controversial among many feminists and others. Theresa May’s Government considered changing the law to allow people to choose their own gender, but Ministers have put those plans on hold after a backlash from female voters.

Many female academics say they have faced harassment from students and activists for questioning trans-inclusive policies, and several high-profile female speakers including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray have been ‘no platformed’ from university debates for their refusal to accept that anyone who says they are a woman must be accepted as female."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7693927/Anyone-allowed-identify-black-according-Left-wing-university-lecturers.html

My answer: No.

Does the UCU have the equivalent of America's Affirmative Action and associated set-asides?

If the UCU does, my answer is also no since "anyone" includes white people who may   be able to  defeat the purpose of the UCU's policies and programs that were established specifically for the assistance and benefit of blacks and other minorities.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 05:36:39 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Wrenchturner

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2019, 05:28:31 PM »
My answer: who gives a shit.

...really? 

Wrenchturner

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2019, 05:30:12 PM »
"The Universities and Colleges Union has set out its stance in a report on the ongoing row about whether men should be able to self-identify as women and be treated as female regardless of their anatomy.

The UCU’s ‘position statement’ did not just stand by its support for self-identification of gender, but also insisted people can choose their own race, saying: ‘Our rules commit us to ending all forms of discrimination, bigotry and stereotyping. UCU has a long history of enabling members to self-identify whether that is being black, disabled, LGBT+ or women.'

Recognising ‘self-defined’ women as fully female is deeply controversial among many feminists and others. Theresa May’s Government considered changing the law to allow people to choose their own gender, but Ministers have put those plans on hold after a backlash from female voters.

Many female academics say they have faced harassment from students and activists for questioning trans-inclusive policies, and several high-profile female speakers including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray have been ‘no platformed’ from university debates for their refusal to accept that anyone who says they are a woman must be accepted as female."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7693927/Anyone-allowed-identify-black-according-Left-wing-university-lecturers.html

My answer: No.

Does the UCU have the equivalent of America's Affirmative Action and associated set-asides?

If the UCU does, my answer is also no since "anyone" includes white people who may   be able to  defeat the purpose of the UCU's policies and programs established specifically for blacks and other minorities.

I'm not sure.  But I agree with your point, it's very disrespectful to people of color.

lizzzi

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2019, 05:36:00 PM »
I think for the most part that insisting you be identified as something you're not is just nonsensical. It's so silly and stupid that I don't waste any time worrying about it. It starts to be a problem if you are claiming an identity to reap benefits you are not really entitled to. That is just fraud. (Nothing to do with bigotry or prejudice.)


marty998

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2019, 06:10:20 PM »
"The Universities and Colleges Union has set out its stance in a report on the ongoing row about whether men should be able to self-identify as women and be treated as female regardless of their anatomy.

The UCU’s ‘position statement’ did not just stand by its support for self-identification of gender, but also insisted people can choose their own race, saying: ‘Our rules commit us to ending all forms of discrimination, bigotry and stereotyping. UCU has a long history of enabling members to self-identify whether that is being black, disabled, LGBT+ or women.'

Recognising ‘self-defined’ women as fully female is deeply controversial among many feminists and others. Theresa May’s Government considered changing the law to allow people to choose their own gender, but Ministers have put those plans on hold after a backlash from female voters.

Many female academics say they have faced harassment from students and activists for questioning trans-inclusive policies, and several high-profile female speakers including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray have been ‘no platformed’ from university debates for their refusal to accept that anyone who says they are a woman must be accepted as female."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7693927/Anyone-allowed-identify-black-according-Left-wing-university-lecturers.html

My answer: No.

Does the UCU have the equivalent of America's Affirmative Action and associated set-asides?

If the UCU does, my answer is also no since "anyone" includes white people who may   be able to  defeat the purpose of the UCU's policies and programs established specifically for blacks and other minorities.

I'm not sure.  But I agree with your point, it's very disrespectful to people of color.

I've always found the "people of colour" term quite funny. I see more shades of colour (mostly pink and red) on pasty white skinned British tourists than I ever do on brown/black people.

As someone who is not white, I'd honestly prefer if the term was dropped altogether. Refer to people as "people". All these identity politics and descriptive terms just serve to reinforce division between groups.

Just my 2c

Wrenchturner

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2019, 07:01:29 PM »
I think for the most part that insisting you be identified as something you're not is just nonsensical. It's so silly and stupid that I don't waste any time worrying about it. It starts to be a problem if you are claiming an identity to reap benefits you are not really entitled to. That is just fraud. (Nothing to do with bigotry or prejudice.)

I agree with the last half, but when one of the (if not the) largest faculty unions in the world(according to wiki) starts dispensing with easily measured reality(like melanin content in skin), I start getting worried about what other types of reality they might be willing to dispense with in the interest of their ideology.

The bigotry or prejudice would come from the fact that black people or POC or whatever you would like to call minority individuals HAVE experienced oppression and injustice, and it is unconscionable to simply pretend their identity isn't relevant or significant. 

Scandium

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2019, 09:06:33 PM »
My answer: who gives a shit.

...really?
Yes really. If this is the kind of thing you sit around worrying about you need a to get a life.

Classic outrage news
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 09:12:47 PM by Scandium »

Wrenchturner

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2019, 10:59:04 PM »
My answer: who gives a shit.

...really?
Yes really. If this is the kind of thing you sit around worrying about you need a to get a life.

Classic outrage news

I will gladly encourage you to NOT post in this thread, then.

former player

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2019, 02:04:13 AM »
On the whole I'm happy for people to describe themselves as they wish, with the exception of fraud of course.  There are not usually great benefits involved in claiming status as a minority.

People describing themselves as they wish is not the end of the story, though.  There can be consequences which result, and those consequences can be detrimental to other people in the new description.  One example would be someone with male genitals and not on hormone therapy claiming entry to a women's refuge.  That would be a "hard NO" for me.  Other examples (toilets seems to be the most obvious in daily life) can be managed through better design of facilities.

The fanatics get in the way of sensible answers, though.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2019, 04:06:04 AM »
On the whole I'm happy for people to describe themselves as they wish, with the exception of fraud of course.  There are not usually great benefits involved in claiming status as a minority.

People describing themselves as they wish is not the end of the story, though.  There can be consequences which result, and those consequences can be detrimental to other people in the new description.  One example would be someone with male genitals and not on hormone therapy claiming entry to a women's refuge.  That would be a "hard NO" for me.  Other examples (toilets seems to be the most obvious in daily life) can be managed through better design of facilities.

The fanatics get in the way of sensible answers, though.

I like the way you think.  It is uncharted territory and we don't yet have a framework for navigating it.
----------------------------------------
I wanted to address the title of this thread, as I pointed out recently in another thread the futility of "Should people be allowed to __________".  It's a baity way to write and I don't like it.   Obviously we cannot fundamentally control how people identify, and it's a weird position from a sort of authoritarian mindset that we would be able to control how people think before they've even acted. 

The title of this thread came from a rewording of the headline,  "Anyone should be allowed to 'identify' as black regardless of the colour of their skin or background, says the university lecturers' union". 

I also left out the university part which is obviously very significant to the conversation, as otherwise this reads more like an op ed, which it is not, and the fact that this nonsensical idea comes from a university faculty union makes it more concerning than it might otherwise be.

lizzzi

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2019, 05:42:40 AM »
I think for the most part that insisting you be identified as something you're not is just nonsensical. It's so silly and stupid that I don't waste any time worrying about it. It starts to be a problem if you are claiming an identity to reap benefits you are not really entitled to. That is just fraud. (Nothing to do with bigotry or prejudice.)

I agree with the last half, but when one of the (if not the) largest faculty unions in the world(according to wiki) starts dispensing with easily measured reality(like melanin content in skin), I start getting worried about what other types of reality they might be willing to dispense with in the interest of their ideology.

The bigotry or prejudice would come from the fact that black people or POC or whatever you would like to call minority individuals HAVE experienced oppression and injustice, and it is unconscionable to simply pretend their identity isn't relevant or significant.

Thanks for this insight--I will ponder on it more deeply. My family is bi-racial, and we all do try to make sure we are honoring all the mixed cultures--so far nobody is trying to identify with one more than the other--but I suppose time will tell as the kids get older.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2019, 09:51:12 AM »
I think for the most part that insisting you be identified as something you're not is just nonsensical. It's so silly and stupid that I don't waste any time worrying about it. It starts to be a problem if you are claiming an identity to reap benefits you are not really entitled to. That is just fraud. (Nothing to do with bigotry or prejudice.)

I agree with the last half, but when one of the (if not the) largest faculty unions in the world(according to wiki) starts dispensing with easily measured reality(like melanin content in skin), I start getting worried about what other types of reality they might be willing to dispense with in the interest of their ideology.

The bigotry or prejudice would come from the fact that black people or POC or whatever you would like to call minority individuals HAVE experienced oppression and injustice, and it is unconscionable to simply pretend their identity isn't relevant or significant.

Thanks for this insight--I will ponder on it more deeply. My family is bi-racial, and we all do try to make sure we are honoring all the mixed cultures--so far nobody is trying to identify with one more than the other--but I suppose time will tell as the kids get older.

I think I see your point.  I hope that one day racial barriers won't exist and bi-racial families will help with this.  Old wounds do heal eventually.

mm1970

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2019, 12:46:57 PM »
On the whole I'm happy for people to describe themselves as they wish, with the exception of fraud of course. There are not usually great benefits involved in claiming status as a minority.

People describing themselves as they wish is not the end of the story, though.  There can be consequences which result, and those consequences can be detrimental to other people in the new description.  One example would be someone with male genitals and not on hormone therapy claiming entry to a women's refuge.  That would be a "hard NO" for me.  Other examples (toilets seems to be the most obvious in daily life) can be managed through better design of facilities.

The fanatics get in the way of sensible answers, though.
Except sometimes there are, like getting into college with affirmative action and all that.

Fascinating thoughts going through my head right now.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2019, 02:35:10 PM »
I view this as a non-issue. Essentially nobody tries to pass as black without any African ancestry. That Rachel Dolezal became so notorious for doing so is reflective of the fact that this sort of thing is so unheard of.

Race, like gender, is heavily influenced by genetics but that's not the whole story. What level of African ancestry should be sufficient to claim "black" racial status? I don't think it's really possible to define it quite that rigidly. Someone who has mostly European ancestry but a black grandfather or great-grandfather may identify themselves as "black" (or not!) based on their upbringing and what sorts of communities they personally feel more affinity with. Who am I to tell them they're wrong to feel either way?

GuitarStv

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2019, 02:55:57 PM »
"The Universities and Colleges Union has set out its stance in a report on the ongoing row about whether men should be able to self-identify as women and be treated as female regardless of their anatomy.

The UCU’s ‘position statement’ did not just stand by its support for self-identification of gender, but also insisted people can choose their own race, saying: ‘Our rules commit us to ending all forms of discrimination, bigotry and stereotyping. UCU has a long history of enabling members to self-identify whether that is being black, disabled, LGBT+ or women.'

Recognising ‘self-defined’ women as fully female is deeply controversial among many feminists and others. Theresa May’s Government considered changing the law to allow people to choose their own gender, but Ministers have put those plans on hold after a backlash from female voters.

Many female academics say they have faced harassment from students and activists for questioning trans-inclusive policies, and several high-profile female speakers including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray have been ‘no platformed’ from university debates for their refusal to accept that anyone who says they are a woman must be accepted as female."

Your sex is biological.  Your gender is a social construct.  Is it a hardship to treat a person as the gender they present to the world?  If so, why?



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7693927/Anyone-allowed-identify-black-according-Left-wing-university-lecturers.html

My answer: No.

What exactly does "identifying as black" even mean?

My best friend was a dark skinned guy from Trinidad.  He married a white woman and had two kids . . . one of whom looks white, and one of whom looks tanned.  Should his lighter skinned kid allowed to identify as black?  Should the tanned one?  Why, or why not?

maizefolk

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2019, 03:18:42 PM »
If we don't codify* separate treatment of people based on race (or gender), we can duck out on this problem entirely.

In the end, humans tend to love and marry who they want which makes the idea of fixed boundaries between racial categories more and more arbitrary with each succeeding generation.** The alternative is racial examination boards (like they have in Brazil to make sure no one who does not appear sufficiently black is benefiting from programs set aside for black people), or, ugh, definitions based on frequencies of genetic markers. Both of those solutions seem like cases where the cure would be infinitely worse than the disease.

*Bigots, racists, and sexists will be happy to reach their own determination of what race or gender they think you are, and aren't likely to care about how you self identify. It's when we're trying to legally and officially treat people differently based on race and gender that questions of who gets to identify as what category come up.

**In fact they are already quite arbitrary when you look at the human population as a whole.

OtherJen

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2019, 03:44:16 PM »
I view this as a non-issue. Essentially nobody tries to pass as black without any African ancestry. That Rachel Dolezal became so notorious for doing so is reflective of the fact that this sort of thing is so unheard of.

Race, like gender, is heavily influenced by genetics but that's not the whole story. What level of African ancestry should be sufficient to claim "black" racial status? I don't think it's really possible to define it quite that rigidly. Someone who has mostly European ancestry but a black grandfather or great-grandfather may identify themselves as "black" (or not!) based on their upbringing and what sorts of communities they personally feel more affinity with. Who am I to tell them they're wrong to feel either way?

I had similar thoughts, especially when thinking of two friends who are very light-skinned but have obviously black fathers. It's up to them how they want to self-identify.

Similarly, I identify as Mexican-American/Latina even though I am light-skinned and have a white mother. My dad's parents both immigrated from Mexico. I've been told multiple times that I can't possibly be of Mexican descent. Um, yeah, I've seen my grandfather's immigration paperwork and grew up with my very brown father. It's frustrating to be told that I must be lying about my ethnicity and ancestry.

Edit: I note that the original article is from the Daily Mail, aka the "Daily Fail." It's an extremely slanted right-wing paper akin to a print version of Fox News. Make of that what you will.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 03:47:19 PM by OtherJen »

jim555

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2019, 04:23:34 PM »
Seems like a mental problem.  I know someone who identifies as Irish.  The problem is she isn't Irish and she knows that.  So I think she has a bolt loose.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2019, 07:35:01 PM »
What exactly does "identifying as black" even mean?
I would imagine the same way someone identifies as disabled or LGBT, as per the statement.  The gender thing is more blurry to me.  Not all who identify as female should be considered as such, like when the rapper Zuby identified as female during a deadlift and bench press to break the world record, then promptly resumed identifying as male(as far as I know).

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rapper-zuby-identifies-as-female-to-smash-weightlifting-record-98b7086ml

From the original article, a couple examples:

"The UCU’s ‘position statement’ did not just stand by its support for self-identification of gender, but also insisted people can choose their own race, saying: ‘Our rules commit us to ending all forms of discrimination, bigotry and stereotyping. UCU has a long history of enabling members to self-identify whether that is being black, disabled, LGBT+ or women.’

The British comedian Sacha Baron Cohen also came under fire in the US over his character Ali G, a white man from Staines who asks critics: ‘Is it because I is black?’

In Britain, the actor Anthony Lennon – born in London to Irish parents – faced criticism last year when it emerged he had won funding from an Arts Council scheme to help ethnic minority actors develop their stage careers, because he ‘identifies’ as a ‘born-again African’."

I agree with @jim555 though that mental illness could be involved.  It's also possible that trolling could be involved.

nnls

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2019, 08:28:47 PM »
I view this as a non-issue. Essentially nobody tries to pass as black without any African ancestry. That Rachel Dolezal became so notorious for doing so is reflective of the fact that this sort of thing is so unheard of.

Race, like gender, is heavily influenced by genetics but that's not the whole story. What level of African ancestry should be sufficient to claim "black" racial status? I don't think it's really possible to define it quite that rigidly. Someone who has mostly European ancestry but a black grandfather or great-grandfather may identify themselves as "black" (or not!) based on their upbringing and what sorts of communities they personally feel more affinity with. Who am I to tell them they're wrong to feel either way?

Just a note in Australia, Indigenous people identify as black. I tried to have an African American person try to tell my cousin and me that we couldn't say we were black as only people of African ancestry could use that term which really confused me(we were in Australia)

Wrenchturner

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2019, 10:08:49 PM »
I view this as a non-issue. Essentially nobody tries to pass as black without any African ancestry. That Rachel Dolezal became so notorious for doing so is reflective of the fact that this sort of thing is so unheard of.

Race, like gender, is heavily influenced by genetics but that's not the whole story. What level of African ancestry should be sufficient to claim "black" racial status? I don't think it's really possible to define it quite that rigidly. Someone who has mostly European ancestry but a black grandfather or great-grandfather may identify themselves as "black" (or not!) based on their upbringing and what sorts of communities they personally feel more affinity with. Who am I to tell them they're wrong to feel either way?

Just a note in Australia, Indigenous people identify as black. I tried to have an African American person try to tell my cousin and me that we couldn't say we were black as only people of African ancestry could use that term which really confused me(we were in Australia)

Does anyone remember this story?

"A white teenager who moved from South Africa to America six years ago was suspended from school after nominating himself for a "Distinguished African-American Student of the Year" prize. Trevor Richards, 16, was accused of "showing disrespect" to black pupils at Westside High School in Omaha, Nebraska. It is thought he is the only pupil to have lived in Africa.

He and two friends put up campaign posters showing him making a thumbs-up sign and all three were suspended.

"The posters were intended to be satire on the term 'African-American'," said one of his campaign managers, Scott Rambo. The phrase is the current politically correct label for black Americans. But the satire misfired, not least because it was aired on Martin Luther King Day, a holiday marking the black preacher's role in the civil rights struggle.

"It's disruptive," said the headmaster, John Crook. "It was offensive to the individual being honoured and to some students.""

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1452762/White-boy-suspended-for-claiming-African-prize.html

Edit: Thought I should mention that this isn't as concerning to me, although it's pretty tone-deaf of the administration not to understand words and the satire is something you might expect from a 16 year old.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 10:19:35 PM by Wrenchturner »

Linea_Norway

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2019, 12:30:35 AM »
Recently a Dutch celebrity wanted to define himself as a lot younger than he really was. His goal was to be accepted on Tinder with a certain age. He wanted his passport to show he was about 20 years younger than his real age. He lost his case in court.

When competing in sports, this gender thing is really difficult. Look even at normal women who have a good portion of male properties and therefore win contests.
Apart form sports, I have no trouble treating people the way they like to be identified in general.

havregryn

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2019, 12:31:36 AM »
There are not usually great benefits involved in claiming status as a minority.

No, actually, there is quite a group  of people out there who have both the privilege of not actually suffering anything you would typically see happen to an oppressed minority and the privilege of playing the oppressed minority card whenever they think it would work for them because activists generally refuse to acknowledge that this can be abused.

I'm not even going to touch race and gender, there is another example that often comes to my mind when people start insisting that this is all black and white and that never would a clearly privileged person intentionally take advantage of assistance reserved for an oppressed minority. A few years ago this story made headlines in my home country
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/adriancarrasquillo/meet-the-undocumented-teen-that-confronted-hillary-clinton-o
See, the problem with this girl's plight is that she got Hillary Clinton to fix her little problem with a sob story based on her vulnerability as an undocumented immigrant. What is however not visible here is that this girl's family has a net worth of at least a couple million $, being one of the oldest and richest families in Croatia (but that they're typical old money Eastern European millionaires who don't really have the brains to hire and pay a lawyer who will sort their paperwork to stay in the US if they so wish and have instead chosen to live illegally (albeit lavishly) which mildly inconvenienced their daughter who wants to be a celebrity).
Given that she is now a travel blogger I am guessing that Mrs. Clinton fixed the inconvenience (as I doubt she would be able to go in and out of the US otherwise) and everyone is happy.  It is only for us who can read the Croatian coverage of the case to be left with distaste comparing this to the reports we've been seeing of what the US has been doing to undocumented immigrants ever since.

Oh, I actually know another one. So, in Sweden to get your kids into the good schools you need to put them on waiting lists when they're fetuses. What that causes is that if you arrive to Sweden as a refugee (and they take them in in droves) you generally can't send your kids to good schools, you only get to send them to makeshift ghetto ones. The good old noble Swedes wanted to fix this so they implemented a quota for "new arrivals" in all fancy schools, meaning that a certain number of spots had to be given to people who registered their residence in Sweden in the last year or so and could not have queued up at birth. A year later someone followed up on the policy and discovered that 100% of these places went to wealthy Swedes returning from a stint abroad. Like us for example. People who worked in places where you can earn vastly more money than in Sweden but decided to come back for the schooling of their kids, especially when they realized it was now 10 times easier to get them into the good ones.The comment of policy makers, well, we didn't think it would happen like this. Right. You didn't. But all these guys did, while most refugees don't even know what makes a school in Sweden good vs bad.

It seems to be that fixing any social problem will take waaay more than focusing on letting people "identify" as whatever they want.

nnls

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2019, 02:03:27 AM »
There are not usually great benefits involved in claiming status as a minority.



Oh, I actually know another one. So, in Sweden to get your kids into the good schools you need to put them on waiting lists when they're fetuses. What that causes is that if you arrive to Sweden as a refugee (and they take them in in droves) you generally can't send your kids to good schools, you only get to send them to makeshift ghetto ones. The good old noble Swedes wanted to fix this so they implemented a quota for "new arrivals" in all fancy schools, meaning that a certain number of spots had to be given to people who registered their residence in Sweden in the last year or so and could not have queued up at birth. A year later someone followed up on the policy and discovered that 100% of these places went to wealthy Swedes returning from a stint abroad. Like us for example. People who worked in places where you can earn vastly more money than in Sweden but decided to come back for the schooling of their kids, especially when they realized it was now 10 times easier to get them into the good ones.The comment of policy makers, well, we didn't think it would happen like this. Right. You didn't. But all these guys did, while most refugees don't even know what makes a school in Sweden good vs bad.

It seems to be that fixing any social problem will take waaay more than focusing on letting people "identify" as whatever they want.

Surely this could be fixed by making it only eligble to new residents in Sweden who arrive on an refugee visa?

havregryn

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2019, 02:12:19 AM »
In theory. But in practice it would be very controversial as Sweden makes quite a bit of a point out of considering anyone who says they're a refugee to be one, vs. considering people who arrive on UNHCR resettlements visas as such (these are a fraction of their total "refugee" population). This is why I even bring this up in this context, it is a very similar problem.
For them "new arrivals" is the most politically correct term for immigrants of any kind (and lol don't even get me started on what that means for example if you arrived as a refugee 5 years ago and still have problems getting into the society...you're more or less doomed, all the interventions are for the fresh ones) and they are LITERALLY oblivious to the fact that you can be a new arrival and not exactly be at risk of social exclusion. Especially as last year's statistics suggested that returning Swedes were the biggest individual immigrant group.

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2019, 03:09:11 AM »
What exactly does "identifying as black" even mean?
I would imagine the same way someone identifies as disabled or LGBT, as per the statement.  The gender thing is more blurry to me.  Not all who identify as female should be considered as such, like when the rapper Zuby identified as female during a deadlift and bench press to break the world record, then promptly resumed identifying as male(as far as I know).

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rapper-zuby-identifies-as-female-to-smash-weightlifting-record-98b7086ml

From the original article, a couple examples:

"The UCU’s ‘position statement’ did not just stand by its support for self-identification of gender, but also insisted people can choose their own race, saying: ‘Our rules commit us to ending all forms of discrimination, bigotry and stereotyping. UCU has a long history of enabling members to self-identify whether that is being black, disabled, LGBT+ or women.’

The British comedian Sacha Baron Cohen also came under fire in the US over his character Ali G, a white man from Staines who asks critics: ‘Is it because I is black?’

In Britain, the actor Anthony Lennon – born in London to Irish parents – faced criticism last year when it emerged he had won funding from an Arts Council scheme to help ethnic minority actors develop their stage careers, because he ‘identifies’ as a ‘born-again African’."

I agree with @jim555 though that mental illness could be involved.  It's also possible that trolling could be involved.

I think this misrepresents the difficult situation that Anthony Ekundayo Lennon is in. Yes, he was born to white parents, but from looking at him it's immediately obvious that he has a mixed race background. So it's not a situation of a white man 'pretending' he's something he's not, but a man who is clearly not white, born from parents who passed as white and maybe never even knew anything about their ethnic heritage but at least one of them must have been mixed race too. He was faced with such heavy criticism that he even went and got a DNA test to prove it.

The thing with DNA is that certain features may not show in one generation but will show up in the next or the one after that. I'm as pale as they get in northern Europe but I've got Spanish heritage from long ago. No one would believe me if I said that, but it's clearly visible in some other relatives in my generation. That heritage could suddenly show up in my children or grandchildren. And the other way around, I know 2 people in my personal life who look white but have one black parent. No one ever believes them about their heritage, white or black people. It must feel awful to not feel welcomed in the community you were raised in because you take after your white parent.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2019, 08:31:16 AM »
What exactly does "identifying as black" even mean?
I would imagine the same way someone identifies as disabled or LGBT, as per the statement.  The gender thing is more blurry to me.  Not all who identify as female should be considered as such, like when the rapper Zuby identified as female during a deadlift and bench press to break the world record, then promptly resumed identifying as male(as far as I know).

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rapper-zuby-identifies-as-female-to-smash-weightlifting-record-98b7086ml

From the original article, a couple examples:

"The UCU’s ‘position statement’ did not just stand by its support for self-identification of gender, but also insisted people can choose their own race, saying: ‘Our rules commit us to ending all forms of discrimination, bigotry and stereotyping. UCU has a long history of enabling members to self-identify whether that is being black, disabled, LGBT+ or women.’

The British comedian Sacha Baron Cohen also came under fire in the US over his character Ali G, a white man from Staines who asks critics: ‘Is it because I is black?’

In Britain, the actor Anthony Lennon – born in London to Irish parents – faced criticism last year when it emerged he had won funding from an Arts Council scheme to help ethnic minority actors develop their stage careers, because he ‘identifies’ as a ‘born-again African’."

I agree with @jim555 though that mental illness could be involved.  It's also possible that trolling could be involved.

I think this misrepresents the difficult situation that Anthony Ekundayo Lennon is in. Yes, he was born to white parents, but from looking at him it's immediately obvious that he has a mixed race background. So it's not a situation of a white man 'pretending' he's something he's not, but a man who is clearly not white, born from parents who passed as white and maybe never even knew anything about their ethnic heritage but at least one of them must have been mixed race too. He was faced with such heavy criticism that he even went and got a DNA test to prove it.

The thing with DNA is that certain features may not show in one generation but will show up in the next or the one after that. I'm as pale as they get in northern Europe but I've got Spanish heritage from long ago. No one would believe me if I said that, but it's clearly visible in some other relatives in my generation. That heritage could suddenly show up in my children or grandchildren. And the other way around, I know 2 people in my personal life who look white but have one black parent. No one ever believes them about their heritage, white or black people. It must feel awful to not feel welcomed in the community you were raised in because you take after your white parent.

You raise good points.  He does also state he's 32% black which I don't think has been confirmed but I don't think he's lying, and you're right, he does appear to have some black heritage from appearance. 

I've also been wondering about black albinos.  Should they identify as black?  Seems reasonable, even though they don't have the melanin.  Indeed, the situation is complicated.

lizzzi

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2019, 08:33:20 AM »
Seems like a mental problem.  I know someone who identifies as Irish.  The problem is she isn't Irish and she knows that.  So I think she has a bolt loose.

Well, I don't know about that one. I've always said that being Irish was just a state of mind anyway. (My 100% Italian husband got along extremely well with the Irish side of the family, and absolutely loved Ireland--said it felt like California because they spoke English over there. lol) Anyway, for years he was known as the "Mediterranean Irishman."

Now, this is meant to be a humorous posting. Don't come at me with 5,000 responses of "woke" political correctness.

Davnasty

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2019, 08:43:21 AM »
What exactly does "identifying as black" even mean?
I would imagine the same way someone identifies as disabled or LGBT, as per the statement.  The gender thing is more blurry to me.  Not all who identify as female should be considered as such, like when the rapper Zuby identified as female during a deadlift and bench press to break the world record, then promptly resumed identifying as male(as far as I know).

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rapper-zuby-identifies-as-female-to-smash-weightlifting-record-98b7086ml

From the original article, a couple examples:

"The UCU’s ‘position statement’ did not just stand by its support for self-identification of gender, but also insisted people can choose their own race, saying: ‘Our rules commit us to ending all forms of discrimination, bigotry and stereotyping. UCU has a long history of enabling members to self-identify whether that is being black, disabled, LGBT+ or women.’

The British comedian Sacha Baron Cohen also came under fire in the US over his character Ali G, a white man from Staines who asks critics: ‘Is it because I is black?’

In Britain, the actor Anthony Lennon – born in London to Irish parents – faced criticism last year when it emerged he had won funding from an Arts Council scheme to help ethnic minority actors develop their stage careers, because he ‘identifies’ as a ‘born-again African’."

I agree with @jim555 though that mental illness could be involved.  It's also possible that trolling could be involved.

I think this misrepresents the difficult situation that Anthony Ekundayo Lennon is in. Yes, he was born to white parents, but from looking at him it's immediately obvious that he has a mixed race background. So it's not a situation of a white man 'pretending' he's something he's not, but a man who is clearly not white, born from parents who passed as white and maybe never even knew anything about their ethnic heritage but at least one of them must have been mixed race too. He was faced with such heavy criticism that he even went and got a DNA test to prove it.

The thing with DNA is that certain features may not show in one generation but will show up in the next or the one after that. I'm as pale as they get in northern Europe but I've got Spanish heritage from long ago. No one would believe me if I said that, but it's clearly visible in some other relatives in my generation. That heritage could suddenly show up in my children or grandchildren. And the other way around, I know 2 people in my personal life who look white but have one black parent. No one ever believes them about their heritage, white or black people. It must feel awful to not feel welcomed in the community you were raised in because you take after your white parent.

Absolutely it does.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/07/anthony-lennon-theatre-director-accused-of-passing-as-black-interview-simon-hattenstone

Starting with the end of the article, he had a DNA test done showing 32% West African descent. Also, worth noting, he had two brothers; one who looked similar to him and another who looked more Irish.

A few points from the article:
Quote
...He remembers being with [his brother] in a cupboard upstairs, hiding from the prying neighbours who had come round for a nosy at the two strange children; friends asking where his black parent was; the school caretaker threatening to set dogs on him and telling him, “Run, nigger.”

...She told him that when he was a baby, people would stare at the two of them in the street – if they were lucky. “Some would shout at her from the other side of the road, some would spit, some would throw stones at the pram.

...Even his grandmother told him he was a curse on the family, and sent him to bed clutching rosary beads so he could pray for forgiveness. A Sunday school worker chastised him for using a light brown pencil when drawing a picture of himself and Vincent; maybe they looked the way they did because they had been bad when they were younger, he said.

...Lennon says that, more than anything else, it was the prejudice he experienced as a child and young adult that made him want to identify as black.

But I think the most important part of this story is that everyone who knew him and everyone who decided to give him his position with the theater company understood who he was. Everyone involved in the situation was fine with it until the media/outside world who only had one little piece of information, taken out of context, got involved. They used him to feed the outrage machine and make their political arguments and in doing so, forced him to relive the things he dealt with growing up, to the point he considered suicide.

I'm not pointing all of this out to argue either side of the thread topic, it is difficult question. As long as affirmative action laws exist, this is only going to become more and more complex as race is diluted over generations. I'm pointing it out to ask that his story not be misrepresented in such a harmful way and also to ask that we all look a little deeper into these stories about individuals before we make accusations.

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2019, 11:43:09 AM »
To add to this conversation, I have never in my life identified as black prior to going to South Africa and also living in the U.S. Even in South Africa, I just mostly identified as Kenyan. In the U.S was the first time I checked a box that suddenly implied black was an identity. Most black people around the world identify by nationality/culture. We do not identify by our race.

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2019, 05:58:57 PM »
The thing about identifying as a member of a particular group is that people frequently only do so when it's perceived as advantageous. For example, there have been times in recent US history where passing as "white" opened up opportunities for people and allowed them to avoid danger. When a person who identifies as "black" despite a lack of recent African heritage or a family history that contains it, I sometimes have to question what kind of advantage that person attempts to gain, and whether he or she is willing or able to accept the down-side of belonging to a less privileged group.

I understand how a person adopted into a family often takes on the culture of his or her parents regardless of genetic reality. A pale child adopted by a melanin-gifted family and raised in a culture best described as "black" could be excused for checking the "black" box on a government survey. I am old enough to remember the country singer Shania Twain being accused of cultural appropriation for using an Ojibwa name and "exploiting" the Ojibwa culture, because although she had been adopted into and raised in an Ojibwa family, she was not genetically Ojibwa and therefore "not Ojibwa enough". It doesn't seem like a big stretch of the imagination to envision the same thing happening to a person raised by "black" parents. Then of course there was the whole drama with Elizabeth Warren's claim of partial First Nations ancestry, which was supported by a DNA test, but which did not reveal enough of a genetic percentage to qualify her for tribal status. Even tribal status frequently depends on whether a person is "enough" genetically to qualify: whether he or she has "enough" ancestors that come from the tribe. No matter where you draw the line, there's always someone who's on the wrong side of it through no fault of his or her own.

I've got a personal preference for inclusiveness, but that comes from an abundance mentality. What happens in an environment of scarcity, when there are only so many goodies to go around to the member of the in-group, and when including one person means saying "no" to another. One example might be a scholarship or grant available only to a member of a less-privileged group or minority. Another example might be tribal income available only to registered members of the tribe, such as the Osage "head rights" that existed during the oil boom in the early 20th century. The more people among whom the assets must be distributed, the less that is available to each individual.

For a person who wants to be "black" when there are scholarships or affirmative action opportunities to go around, I kind of have to point out that the affirmative action only exists to compensate for some pretty pervasive and ongoing inequality. So, I kind of have to ask: what steps are they taking to ensure they take the bad along with the good? How "black" do they want to be, if they happen to be driving a rental vehicle at night and take a wrong turn into a street known for drug trafficking, but accidentally make a driving mistake due to their unfamiliarity with the area? If by some chance they make a bad choice and end up in prison, how "black" do they want to be? What's their plan for interacting with people who assert that they aren't "black" enough? How important is that identity? Are they willing to embrace the negative stereotypes? Are they willing to spend time interacting with people who are making bad lifestyle decisions simply because those people happen to be part of the ethnic identity the box-checker wants to claim?

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2019, 06:28:58 PM »
The thing about identifying as a member of a particular group is that people frequently only do so when it's perceived as advantageous. For example, there have been times in recent US history where passing as "white" opened up opportunities for people and allowed them to avoid danger. When a person who identifies as "black" despite a lack of recent African heritage or a family history that contains it, I sometimes have to question what kind of advantage that person attempts to gain, and whether he or she is willing or able to accept the down-side of belonging to a less privileged group.

I don't buy this argument entirely.  Identifying as a man while biologically female made life significantly more difficult for our family friend.  It's almost certain to have resulted in fewer job opportunities, definitely negatively impacted social life in the small rural town we lived, and near as I can figure offered no tangible benefits of any kind.  In fact, the only real 'benefit' was that it was (slightly) less miserable than identifying as a woman when he didn't feel like a woman - so avoiding a betrayal of self.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2019, 06:49:25 PM »
The thing about identifying as a member of a particular group is that people frequently only do so when it's perceived as advantageous. For example, there have been times in recent US history where passing as "white" opened up opportunities for people and allowed them to avoid danger. When a person who identifies as "black" despite a lack of recent African heritage or a family history that contains it, I sometimes have to question what kind of advantage that person attempts to gain, and whether he or she is willing or able to accept the down-side of belonging to a less privileged group.

I don't buy this argument entirely.  Identifying as a man while biologically female made life significantly more difficult for our family friend.  It's almost certain to have resulted in fewer job opportunities, definitely negatively impacted social life in the small rural town we lived, and near as I can figure offered no tangible benefits of any kind.  In fact, the only real 'benefit' was that it was (slightly) less miserable than identifying as a woman when he didn't feel like a woman - so avoiding a betrayal of self.

See, I've gotten huge benefits from defeminizing. I'm not even remotely female except from the skull outward, and the fact I lack a Y chromosome has always struck me as either a bad cosmic joke or some kind of birth defect. I get by all right when I'm alone, but when I'm in contact with other humans it's extremely disorienting because they behave almost as though the packaging-- the vehicle I occupy-- has something to do with who or what I am.

In high school, I did an experiment. When I eliminated feminine-appearing first and middle names in favor of my initials, my grades went up about 10% in all the liberal arts classes. The math and hard science grades stayed the same. Later, when I had a job in collections my call-backs and successful trips occurred only when I used my initials instead of feminine-appearing names. When people address me as "sir" I invariably get better treatment. I only got job interviews when the human resources department identified me as male. That was enough to let me get my foot in the door so that I could allow my credentials and technical accomplishments to speak for themselves. As a male, I find that my business concerns and complaints are taken seriously and service tends to be prompt and professional. If I appear as female, my concerns and complaints are overlooked and service is punctuated by bizarre, derogatory name calling when wait staff address me as "hon". That's right: my male-appearing dining partner is "sir", but if I'm unfortunate enough to appear as female, to the server or the cashier I'm suddenly "hon" even when I'm the one paying the bill. My money is considered less important than that of a cock owner, simply because that person has a cock and I don't.

Overall, my treatment by other people is far better when I present as male. I make more money, I receive more respect, people try to rip me off a lot less, and I have to undergo fewer hassles just to get by. If I hadn't been able to successfully defeminize enough to get a job offer during either of the two recessions I'd graduated into, I would have starved to death.

It just happens to be the case that the advantageous gender, and the legitmiate gender, happens to be the one I identify with and the one my personality traits sync with the most consistently. I have no idea what it's like to be female intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually. Can't relate. But you'd better believe that defeminizing has lined my pocket nicely.

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2019, 07:53:28 PM »
TheGrimSqueaker, your post is a fascinating read as always, thank you! I did want to follow up on this point:

I've got a personal preference for inclusiveness, but that comes from an abundance mentality. What happens in an environment of scarcity, when there are only so many goodies to go around to the member of the in-group, and when including one person means saying "no" to another.

And add to it that studies suggest that even in the absence of true limited resources or zero sum games, just the IDEA of limited resources is enough to have folks start exhibiting more exclusive (rather than inclusive) behavior and thinking. Markers of racism and sexism and all sorts of isms go up.

So by addressing not just scarcity but the things that cause people to perceive scarcity when it doesn't exist, one can both directly reduce human suffering, and indirectly reduce suffering by reducing the prevalence of exclusive behaviors and thinking.

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2019, 09:48:31 PM »
The thing about identifying as a member of a particular group is that people frequently only do so when it's perceived as advantageous. For example, there have been times in recent US history where passing as "white" opened up opportunities for people and allowed them to avoid danger. When a person who identifies as "black" despite a lack of recent African heritage or a family history that contains it, I sometimes have to question what kind of advantage that person attempts to gain, and whether he or she is willing or able to accept the down-side of belonging to a less privileged group.

I don't buy this argument entirely.  Identifying as a man while biologically female made life significantly more difficult for our family friend.  It's almost certain to have resulted in fewer job opportunities, definitely negatively impacted social life in the small rural town we lived, and near as I can figure offered no tangible benefits of any kind.  In fact, the only real 'benefit' was that it was (slightly) less miserable than identifying as a woman when he didn't feel like a woman - so avoiding a betrayal of self.

See, I've gotten huge benefits from defeminizing. I'm not even remotely female except from the skull outward, and the fact I lack a Y chromosome has always struck me as either a bad cosmic joke or some kind of birth defect. I get by all right when I'm alone, but when I'm in contact with other humans it's extremely disorienting because they behave almost as though the packaging-- the vehicle I occupy-- has something to do with who or what I am.

In high school, I did an experiment. When I eliminated feminine-appearing first and middle names in favor of my initials, my grades went up about 10% in all the liberal arts classes. The math and hard science grades stayed the same. Later, when I had a job in collections my call-backs and successful trips occurred only when I used my initials instead of feminine-appearing names. When people address me as "sir" I invariably get better treatment. I only got job interviews when the human resources department identified me as male. That was enough to let me get my foot in the door so that I could allow my credentials and technical accomplishments to speak for themselves. As a male, I find that my business concerns and complaints are taken seriously and service tends to be prompt and professional. If I appear as female, my concerns and complaints are overlooked and service is punctuated by bizarre, derogatory name calling when wait staff address me as "hon". That's right: my male-appearing dining partner is "sir", but if I'm unfortunate enough to appear as female, to the server or the cashier I'm suddenly "hon" even when I'm the one paying the bill. My money is considered less important than that of a cock owner, simply because that person has a cock and I don't.

Overall, my treatment by other people is far better when I present as male. I make more money, I receive more respect, people try to rip me off a lot less, and I have to undergo fewer hassles just to get by. If I hadn't been able to successfully defeminize enough to get a job offer during either of the two recessions I'd graduated into, I would have starved to death.

It just happens to be the case that the advantageous gender, and the legitmiate gender, happens to be the one I identify with and the one my personality traits sync with the most consistently. I have no idea what it's like to be female intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually. Can't relate. But you'd better believe that defeminizing has lined my pocket nicely.
This is fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing. I am glad you have the flexibility to  be perceived as you wish to be and I am especially glad to hear that on your own you ar comfortable. I can’t imagine the horror of occupying a body that is at odds with who I am on the inside.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2019, 01:27:16 PM »
My answer: who gives a shit.

...really?
Yes really. If this is the kind of thing you sit around worrying about you need a to get a life.

Classic outrage news

I will gladly encourage you to NOT post in this thread, then.

Why? Indifference and abstention are perfectly valid points of view. I wish more people would express indifference. FWIW I think the whole thing is silly. Maybe a distraction from other more important things?

Seemed like more than simple indifference in those posts.   

TempusFugit

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Re: Should anyone be allowed to "identify" as black? UK article.
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2019, 04:59:46 PM »
I think its kind of ridiculous and unfortunately a bit destructive to encourage this sort of thing.  But it is what we get when we set up incentives for people to belong to one group or another. 

We have major politicians who used fraudulent claims of racial identity to promote their careers ( looking at you, miss 0.007% native american).  We have males identifying as female and then competing in and dominating women's athletics.  Thats not ok.   

Happened upon this the other day

https://babylonbee.com/news/motorcycle-that-identifies-as-bicycle-sets-world-cycling-record