Sham where Putin remains in Power

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Journalists used to provide context for world events.  All competition for Putin has been cleared by assassination or imprisonment - or both.  And yet both the BBC and Al Jazeera call it an "election", making no distinction with democratic voting.  Neither mentioned what happened to Putin's opponents - the closest they get is citing "no credible opposition."  Does democracy only get a dog whistle by journalists?

[bill1827]

You or I might not like it but it is an election (the electorate go out and vote) and it is completely reasonable for news organisations to call it an election. What else would you call it?

The BBC (and other reputable news sites) make it quite clear that it is a corrupt election with all the competition eliminated, but it is still an election.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Yes, the BBC sometimes introduces the story with the fact Putin's opposition are in exile, in prison or dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdh2Hg2gwRg

Sometimes they don't.  Calling it "Russia election" with no mention of opponents exiled, in prison or dead.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68576817

[ChpBstrd]

Journalists used to provide context for world events.  All competition for Putin has been cleared by assassination or imprisonment - or both.  And yet both the BBC and Al Jazeera call it an "election", making no distinction with democratic voting.  Neither mentioned what happened to Putin's opponents - the closest they get is citing "no credible opposition."  Does democracy only get a dog whistle by journalists?

I'm with you on this one. This was not an "election" the way we understand "election". The outcome was assured ahead of time. The whole exercise was intended to create a sense of false unanimity and perpetuate the myth that Russia's post-Soviet constitution still matters.

Yet there's a slippery slope problem in the slightly less autocratic countries: How corrupt does a voting exercise need to be before the media calls it something else? How much violence at the polls, ballot stuffing, or elimination of competition must occur before we flip the "legit" switch to the "not" setting. In many democracies, a certain level of violence, corruption, intimidation, or misuse of law enforcement occurs with every election - and the U.S. is shifting in this direction as well.

[tooqk4u22]

Well...like amny other dictatorship elections nobody, including in said country, thinks it's real. And if you are in country, or are an organization with people I country, that report accurately and loudly then it is likely that those individuals will likely not be reporting much longer (detained and imprisoned). 

The irony is that the US looks like a banana republic to the rest if the world so the whole casting od stones and such....

[MustacheAndaHalf]

The irony is that the US looks like a banana republic to the rest if the world so the whole casting od stones and such....

Which reliable news source calls the United States a banana republic?

The past 3 Presidents of the U.S. were Obama (2012), Trump (2016), Biden (2020).  Changing Presidents every four years is not a feature of banana republics, and is something you should consider for a criteria of what makes an authoritarian regime.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Journalists used to provide context for world events.  All competition for Putin has been cleared by assassination or imprisonment - or both.  And yet both the BBC and Al Jazeera call it an "election", making no distinction with democratic voting.  Neither mentioned what happened to Putin's opponents - the closest they get is citing "no credible opposition."  Does democracy only get a dog whistle by journalists?

I'm with you on this one. This was not an "election" the way we understand "election". The outcome was assured ahead of time. The whole exercise was intended to create a sense of false unanimity and perpetuate the myth that Russia's post-Soviet constitution still matters.

Yet there's a slippery slope problem in the slightly less autocratic countries: How corrupt does a voting exercise need to be before the media calls it something else? How much violence at the polls, ballot stuffing, or elimination of competition must occur before we flip the "legit" switch to the "not" setting. In many democracies, a certain level of violence, corruption, intimidation, or misuse of law enforcement occurs with every election - and the U.S. is shifting in this direction as well.

Close military ties with other autocrats might be a good starting point.

With apologies for the WWII Germany reference, but before things got really bad, the judges in Germany handed out sentences based on political party.  For the same crime, you could get 1 year or 40 years in prison.  Unequal treatment before the law is another strong indicator.

In a more general sense, my complaint here is how journalism refuses to provide context for the actions of dictators.  Most of Putin's claims have been falsehoods, which is not something I see the news media mention.  Journalists used to share their knowledge and provide context.  In place of doing that today, the media stir up conflict by getting quotes from both sides.  Putting things in context isn't as exciting, doesn't draw as many readers... and ultimately causes newspapers to go out of business for lack of advertising revenue.  So we get a lack of context, stirred up emotions, and hinting that Russia is held an election, instead of a sham election.

[tooqk4u22]

The irony is that the US looks like a banana republic to the rest if the world so the whole casting od stones and such....

Which reliable news source calls the United States a banana republic?

The past 3 Presidents of the U.S. were Obama (2012), Trump (2016), Biden (2020).  Changing Presidents every four years is not a feature of banana republics, and is something you should consider for a criteria of what makes an authoritarian regime.

The term "banana republic" expanded from what was literally a banana republic and has evolved into being derogatory slang for dysfunctional governments - the US is pretty dysfunctional right now and there is this big orange thing that would like to have an authoritarian regime. 


Characteristics of a Banana Republic:
Widespread government corruption (Absolutely)
Tyrannical government  (Almost)
Unstable government (Maybe)
Civil unrest  (At times)
Coup attempts/insurgency (January 6th anyone)
Economic dependency on exporting a limited natural resource (which may or may not be bananas)  (not this one although I guess we export US treasuries and are dependent on that)
Infrastructure owned/supported by out-of-country interests  (at times but not really)
Overall economic dependency on foreign investment or business entities (possibly to some extent)
Widespread poverty (quite a bit out there but maybe not widespread)
Significant stratification of social classes (yup)
Enormous gap between the haves and have nots (yup)
Lack of a middle class (getting there)

I am still hopeful but I don't think it is such a stretch that the US is viewed in negative light right now.

And the reason why there is no real reporting on Russian elections is because it is like reporting on the weather in Arizona - it is the same thing day in and day out and year to year forever. 

[YttriumNitrate]

The irony is that the US looks like a banana republic to the rest if the world so the whole casting od stones and such....

Which reliable news source calls the United States a banana republic?

To be fair, the the person with the most votes was only elected U.S. president in 4 of the last 6 elections.

[GuitarStv]

The irony is that the US looks like a banana republic to the rest if the world so the whole casting od stones and such....

Which reliable news source calls the United States a banana republic?

The past 3 Presidents of the U.S. were Obama (2012), Trump (2016), Biden (2020).  Changing Presidents every four years is not a feature of banana republics, and is something you should consider for a criteria of what makes an authoritarian regime.

The term "banana republic" expanded from what was literally a banana republic and has evolved into being derogatory slang for dysfunctional governments - the US is pretty dysfunctional right now and there is this big orange thing that would like to have an authoritarian regime. 


Characteristics of a Banana Republic:
Widespread government corruption (Absolutely)
Tyrannical government  (Almost)
Unstable government (Maybe)
Civil unrest  (At times)
Coup attempts/insurgency (January 6th anyone)
Economic dependency on exporting a limited natural resource (which may or may not be bananas)  (not this one although I guess we export US treasuries and are dependent on that)
Infrastructure owned/supported by out-of-country interests  (at times but not really)
Overall economic dependency on foreign investment or business entities (possibly to some extent)
Widespread poverty (quite a bit out there but maybe not widespread)
Significant stratification of social classes (yup)
Enormous gap between the haves and have nots (yup)
Lack of a middle class (getting there)

I am still hopeful but I don't think it is such a stretch that the US is viewed in negative light right now.

And the reason why there is no real reporting on Russian elections is because it is like reporting on the weather in Arizona - it is the same thing day in and day out and year to year forever. 

The US certainly has it's problems (and I'm pretty vocal about them when I see them) but it's not anywhere near banana republic territory.

Widespread government corruption - Nah.
 I mean, there is some corruption, and there are plenty of areas to do better . . . but compared to the rest of the world the US is doing OK.  Not great, but OK.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
Unstable government - Nah.  We'll see what happens the next time Trump gets elected (and then is supposed to step down from power), but so far so good.
Civil unrest - Nah.  Not in any serious way.
Coup attempts - Yep, Jan 6th.  This was a serious and concerning problem . . . but the people involved were fringe idiots.  More concerning was that many of the police at the capitol seemed to be sympathizers, and of course the fact that it was led by former president Trump.
Economic dependency on exporting a limited natural resource - Nah.
Infrastructure owned/supported by out-of-country interests - Nah.
Overall economic dependency on foreign investment or business entities - Nah.
Widespread poverty (quite a bit out there but maybe not widespread) - Nah.
Significant stratification of social classes - Yep, things certainly seem to be headed this way.  It's a real concern.
Enormous gap between the haves and have nots - Same root causes as the above.
Lack of a middle class - Ditto.

[beee]

The whole exercise was intended to create a sense of false unanimity and perpetuate the myth that Russia's post-Soviet constitution still matters.

I don't know if you're aware or not but the Russian constitution was changed in 2020 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_amendments_to_the_Constitution_of_Russia).

Edits included:
- remove "in row" from "the same person cannot hold a position of the presidency of the Russian Federation more than two terms in a row"
- add "Nullify the number of presidential terms served by the current president".

These changes allowed Putin to go to elections in 2024, this is his 5th term (2000-2004, 2004-2008, term became 6 years instead of 4, 2012-2018, 2018-2024). 2008-2012 he was a prime minister while his friend kept the president chair warm for him.

The procedure was illegal because the change was sanctioned by a temporary law that was made specifically for this change and all edits were voted as a bundle instead of voting for each one of them separately.

[GilesMM]

Journalists used to provide context for world events.  All competition for Putin has been cleared by assassination or imprisonment - or both.  And yet both the BBC and Al Jazeera call it an "election", making no distinction with democratic voting.  Neither mentioned what happened to Putin's opponents - the closest they get is citing "no credible opposition."  Does democracy only get a dog whistle by journalists?

People voting is usually referred to as an election. 

Al Jazeera wrote this:


The Russian presidential election was not expected to be a cliffhanger. The victory of incumbent President Vladimir Putin was very much ensured by the absence of registered candidates who could truly challenge his re-election. Yet it is an important milestone which marks another six years of Putin – the most militant and aggressive version of him – in charge of Russia. T[/size]he Kremlin framed what essentially is the incumbent’s self-reappointment as a plebiscite on the war in Ukraine – a carefully choreographed performance aimed at convincing both Russian and Western audiences that an overwhelming majority of Russians stand behind the regime’s effort to defeat Ukraine and undermine the West.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

The irony is that the US looks like a banana republic to the rest if the world so the whole casting od stones and such....

Which reliable news source calls the United States a banana republic?

To be fair, the the person with the most votes was only elected U.S. president in 4 of the last 6 elections.

You're claiming the United States is a banana republic because it uses the Electoral College to elect a President?

[MustacheAndaHalf]

A good measure of corruption is the 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index, by Transparency International.

The U.S. ranks #24 out of #180 in this list, which means 85% of countries rank lower on this corruption index than the U.S.  Are those 85% also corrupt?  If not, why single out the U.S. as being corrupt when it is ahead of 85% of countries?
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023

[MustacheAndaHalf]

... the Russian constitution was changed in 2020 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_amendments_to_the_Constitution_of_Russia).

Edits included:
- remove "in row" from "the same person cannot hold a position of the presidency of the Russian Federation more than two terms in a row"
- add "Nullify the number of presidential terms served by the current president".

These changes allowed Putin to go to elections in 2024, this is his 5th term (2000-2004, 2004-2008, term became 6 years instead of 4, 2012-2018, 2018-2024). 2008-2012 he was a prime minister while his friend kept the president chair warm for him.

I wasn't aware of this specific maneuver, and I wish it received more attention than people spilling ink in voting boxes in Russia.  Changes allowing the same person to remain in power after 20 years seems like a good indication of a dictator.

AP had a story of the same type of maneuver in China, allowing President Xi to stay in power past his second term.

BEIJING (AP) — Xi Jinping, already China’s most powerful leader in more than a generation, received a vastly expanded mandate as lawmakers Sunday abolished presidential term limits that had been in place for more than 35 years and wrote his political philosophy into the country’s constitution.

In one swift vote, the rubber-stamp legislature opened up the possibility of Xi being president for life, returning China to the one-man-rule system that prevailed during the era of Mao Zedong and the emperors who preceded him.

https://apnews.com/article/ce543a468e3c4f27b7963a0e0579689b

[reeshau]

A good measure of corruption is the 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index, by Transparency International.

The U.S. ranks #24 out of #180 in this list, which means 85% of countries rank lower on this corruption index than the U.S.  Are those 85% also corrupt?  If not, why single out the U.S. as being corrupt when it is ahead of 85% of countries?
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023

People get freaked out about corruption in the US.  I think a lot of the anecdotes of corruption could be termed favoritism.  I don't want corruption in the US.

But anyone who thinks the US is somehow world-class in corruption has never stepped out of the country.  When I started going across the border to Mexico to work, I was told more than once to wrap a $20 around my driver's license, if I got pulled over for speeding.  That's corruption.  And compared to Mexico today, that's a joke.

My prior company considered a joint venture in Russia in the late aughts.  As we discussed with the partner how it would operate, the talk centered around customs.  (For imports; Russia exports almost no finished goods)  I talked about our customs application for Mexico, which handled NAFTA status, Maquilladora goods, many factors.  The Russians flat out said: no system can handle Russian customs.  Then went on to say that the tariff cost would vary by day, by customs officer.  Not in any way dealing with classification of goods, or miscounting; just, what they felt they needed  to add for themselves.

Corruption is when you hold cash at home, because you don't trust the bank.  Or when you hold all precious metals, because you don't trust the currency.  Or you fear for you or our family's safety when catching the attention of someone in authority.  Yes, it could happen to us.  But no, it's not anywhere on the scale found in the world today.

[tooqk4u22]

A good measure of corruption is the 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index, by Transparency International.

The U.S. ranks #24 out of #180 in this list, which means 85% of countries rank lower on this corruption index than the U.S.  Are those 85% also corrupt?  If not, why single out the U.S. as being corrupt when it is ahead of 85% of countries?
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023

That makes me feel better.....the US is better than 3rd world countries, dictatorships/communist, and real banana republics but trails behind many developed countries with functioning governments.   We should be better.   

Just because  corruption isn't overt doesn't mean there isn't any.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

A good measure of corruption is the 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index, by Transparency International.

The U.S. ranks #24 out of #180 in this list, which means 85% of countries rank lower on this corruption index than the U.S.  Are those 85% also corrupt?  If not, why single out the U.S. as being corrupt when it is ahead of 85% of countries?
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023

That makes me feel better.....the US is better than 3rd world countries, dictatorships/communist, and real banana republics but trails behind many developed countries with functioning governments.   We should be better.   

Just because  corruption isn't overt doesn't mean there isn't any.

Are you claiming Portugal, Spain, Italy and Poland are "3rd world countries"?  Are they also "banana republics", since they have greater corruption than the U.S.?

When you claimed the U.S. was a "banana republic", you did not argue there was "any" corruption, you claimed it was "Widespread government corruption".

Widespread government corruption (Absolutely)

[MustacheAndaHalf]

A good measure of corruption is the 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index, by Transparency International.

The U.S. ranks #24 out of #180 in this list, which means 85% of countries rank lower on this corruption index than the U.S.  Are those 85% also corrupt?  If not, why single out the U.S. as being corrupt when it is ahead of 85% of countries?
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023

People get freaked out about corruption in the US.  I think a lot of the anecdotes of corruption could be termed favoritism.  I don't want corruption in the US.

But anyone who thinks the US is somehow world-class in corruption has never stepped out of the country.

You could be right about travel, although people traveling to Japan, Canada or Europe might not see much corruption.

I suspect people are viewing political differences as corruption.  I've read that the far Left and far Right comprise 15% of the population.  They get a lot more publicity than that, which gives the sense their numbers are greater.

[reeshau]

A good measure of corruption is the 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index, by Transparency International.

The U.S. ranks #24 out of #180 in this list, which means 85% of countries rank lower on this corruption index than the U.S.  Are those 85% also corrupt?  If not, why single out the U.S. as being corrupt when it is ahead of 85% of countries?
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023

People get freaked out about corruption in the US.  I think a lot of the anecdotes of corruption could be termed favoritism.  I don't want corruption in the US.

But anyone who thinks the US is somehow world-class in corruption has never stepped out of the country.

You could be right about travel, although people traveling to Japan, Canada or Europe might not see much corruption.

I suspect people are viewing political differences as corruption.  I've read that the far Left and far Right comprise 15% of the population.  They get a lot more publicity than that, which gives the sense their numbers are greater.

To your point: seeing the basis of other countries--what they view as normal--can open your eyes.  Paying 20% VAT.  Being in Paris during a general strike, or London during a transit strike.  Having a medical emergency and having it taken care of for $0.  Bottled water for $0.50, while a Coke is $3.50.

Tons and tons of assumption-breaking examples are everywhere.  Of course, if your version of travel is by tour bus, staying in chain hotels, or at an all-inclusive, you'll never see the reality of where you visit.

Back to the topic at hand: I visited St. Petersburg in 2013.  It happened to be during Fleet Week.  We were on a small group tour, and our tour guide, who was a former teacher, was very open on the post-USSR history of Russia.  I am very sad for her and those like her, to see where the country is at now.

[tooqk4u22]

A good measure of corruption is the 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index, by Transparency International.

The U.S. ranks #24 out of #180 in this list, which means 85% of countries rank lower on this corruption index than the U.S.  Are those 85% also corrupt?  If not, why single out the U.S. as being corrupt when it is ahead of 85% of countries?
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023

That makes me feel better.....the US is better than 3rd world countries, dictatorships/communist, and real banana republics but trails behind many developed countries with functioning governments.   We should be better.   

Just because  corruption isn't overt doesn't mean there isn't any.

Are you claiming Portugal, Spain, Italy and Poland are "3rd world countries"?  Are they also "banana republics", since they have greater corruption than the U.S.?

When you claimed the U.S. was a "banana republic", you did not argue there was "any" corruption, you claimed it was "Widespread government corruption".

Widespread government corruption (Absolutely)

Clearly you are someone that wants everything to be 100% literal and exact like 1+1=2 but it could be that these numbers are rounded for simplicity and the actual result is 2.113.   There is also a thing called exagerrated effect.  Sorry if your brain can't handle it.[MOD NOTE: That's probably a bit much, right there. We can disagree amicably and agree that you were exaggerating.]

First I never said the US IS a banana republic...I said that looks like it to the rest of the world and I as also said from a political dysfunction sense and not a literal banana republic.  I could just as easily said "looks like a clown show" but I suppose you then would have made some reference to being no supporting data of ACTUAL clowns running the country.
 

Also, regarding Spain, Italy and whatever.....please read again....."trails behind many developed countries" which means not all developed countries. 

And yes I do think there is Widespread corruption in the local, state and federal government levels.  Just because we have come to expect it doesn't make it not exist.  He'll there is a whole industry of consultants based on this.   And more recently we have the supreme court, which should be above reproach, has had many issues.   Just because there are other countries with greater or more overt corruption doesn't mean the US isn't.....in fact the example cited about wrapping some cash around your license to get out of a ticket may actually be less corrupt as it would seem to be a well know cost.   

[ATtiny85]

There is also a thing called exagerrated effect.

Dittoe phor spel checq.

[reeshau]

There is also a thing called exagerrated effect.

Dittoe phor spel checq.

I call my tablet's spellchecker a spellmangler.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

A good measure of corruption is the 2023 Corruption Perceptions Index, by Transparency International.

The U.S. ranks #24 out of #180 in this list, which means 85% of countries rank lower on this corruption index than the U.S.  Are those 85% also corrupt?  If not, why single out the U.S. as being corrupt when it is ahead of 85% of countries?
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2023

That makes me feel better.....the US is better than 3rd world countries, dictatorships/communist, and real banana republics but trails behind many developed countries with functioning governments.   We should be better.   

Just because  corruption isn't overt doesn't mean there isn't any.

Are you claiming Portugal, Spain, Italy and Poland are "3rd world countries"?  Are they also "banana republics", since they have greater corruption than the U.S.?

When you claimed the U.S. was a "banana republic", you did not argue there was "any" corruption, you claimed it was "Widespread government corruption".

Widespread government corruption (Absolutely)

Clearly you are someone that wants everything to be 100% literal and exact like 1+1=2 but it could be that these numbers are rounded for simplicity and the actual result is 2.113.   There is also a thing called exagerrated effect.  Sorry if your brain can't handle it.

Making an ad hominem attack and insulting me are both against the forum rules.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/

[deborah]

Corruption is an insidious thing. The corruption perceptions index is mentioned several times above, and the Wikipedia page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

Shows the corruption perceptions index for this century. While my country (Australia) has always ranked quite highly on the index, I feel that we’ve been going downhill, and the actual values over the years support this. I know that we’re one of the best for corruption. I know that other countries are worse, but we could and should be better. Whenever we’ve had inquiries into corruption, some of the perpetrators have been astonished that what they’re doing is considered to be corrupt. It’s really easy to normalise and to slide down the slippery slope. It’s also really easy for a country to normalise corruption - gerrymandering electoral boundaries, making it harder for certain people to vote… (this is an index of public corruption rather than private corruption)

Of course, the USA is a slightly more perceptively corrupt place, and at a glance, it’s been so for a while. And they’re nowhere near as perceptively corrupt as most of the other places like Russia.

If you want to look at private corruption (or bribery), the global corruption barometer is a better index

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Corruption_Barometer

[beee]

I can tell you a couple of personal stories about corruption in Russia.

2003, I was 15 and working for a small advertisement agency in my home town.
That agency was awarded a project to create a website for one plant (huge company, one of the biggest manufacturers of oil equipment in Russia).

I created that website and earned around $170 for that project (on top of my monthly salary). I was really proud of myself, earning such money at 15.

Later I learned that my company charged around $2,000 for the project BUT the plant paid the whole $10,000 for the website. The missing $8,000 were a kickback to the manager working at that plant who was overseeing the website creation project, and who negotiated that kickback with the agency.


2009, I was 21, and was studying in Moscow and at the same time working in a web-studio making websites. One of our customers was Schwarzkopf Russia. I don't know any specific numbers but I remember our CEO complaining that the managers from Schwarzkopf demanded huge kickbacks and he had to give them cash in gym bags like some kind of gangster.


I live in Canada since 2010, it's not perfect but taking into account my reference point, it's really amazing. US is a great country too. Don't call it a "banana republic", we're all really blessed and privileged to live in 1st world countries.