Author Topic: Scalia died  (Read 77980 times)

Jeremy E.

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #100 on: February 15, 2016, 08:55:20 PM »
What's the point of the obstructionism? Does it matter whether it is Obama or Clinton who appoints? Rimshot

I've already heard suggestions that Obama will stall the nomination so that Clinton can nominated him.

Can she do that from a jail cell?
I don't think she'll go to jail, I think she's got a 90% shot at getting the democratic nomination and then a 50/50 shot at winning president, that being said, here is a funny thing I just thought of. I bet she could do more good for the country if she started a kickstarter that where if she raises $250 billion, she'll resign her campaign and spend 5 years in jail, and then use that money to help the country.

Huh? You think the American people would pay an average of 8 grand apiece for her to spend 5 years in jail?

I don't understand this thought process at all.
Did you make those lottery memes that said everyone could get 1mil each if they split the lottery between everyone? it would be $800 each. The Koch brothers have close to $100 billion alone, I'm sure they would love to see Hillary in jail and a republican president. maybe $100 billion is more reasonable than $250 billion

So, what you are saying is that two people could send her to jail.  Not that the American people could.

I'm going to say that most people who would like to see Hillary in jail probably couldn't rustle up $800 to contribute.
I'm saying the koch brothers would probably put in like $1-$20 billion, lots of people that normally donate to republicans would put in, lots of republicans would throw in some money, I think we would raise more money that would do more good for the country than she could.

dramaman

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #101 on: February 15, 2016, 09:13:20 PM »
What's the point of the obstructionism? Does it matter whether it is Obama or Clinton who appoints? Rimshot

I've already heard suggestions that Obama will stall the nomination so that Clinton can nominated him.

Can she do that from a jail cell?
I don't think she'll go to jail, I think she's got a 90% shot at getting the democratic nomination and then a 50/50 shot at winning president, that being said, here is a funny thing I just thought of. I bet she could do more good for the country if she started a kickstarter that where if she raises $250 billion, she'll resign her campaign and spend 5 years in jail, and then use that money to help the country.

Huh? You think the American people would pay an average of 8 grand apiece for her to spend 5 years in jail?

I don't understand this thought process at all.
Did you make those lottery memes that said everyone could get 1mil each if they split the lottery between everyone? it would be $800 each. The Koch brothers have close to $100 billion alone, I'm sure they would love to see Hillary in jail and a republican president. maybe $100 billion is more reasonable than $250 billion

So, what you are saying is that two people could send her to jail.  Not that the American people could.

I'm going to say that most people who would like to see Hillary in jail probably couldn't rustle up $800 to contribute.
I'm saying the koch brothers would probably put in like $1-$20 billion, lots of people that normally donate to republicans would put in, lots of republicans would throw in some money, I think we would raise more money that would do more good for the country than she could.

On the other hand, a number of democrats would probably pay good money to put the Kochs in jail. Regardless, it's kind of a pointless thought exercise any way you look at it. The chance of Hillary going to jail for the server is probably as much as Bill going to jail for a lying about a blowjob. The only people that think these were even jail worthy offenses are generally those who hate them.

maizefolk

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #102 on: February 15, 2016, 09:25:30 PM »
Like dramaman said, it's a pointless exercise. But here's some math to point out how far off base the numbers being thrown around are.

In 2012 total spending on the presidential election (Obama's campaign, Romney's Campaign, and outside groups like the Kochs) was only $2.6 billion. That's a good benchmark for how much people are actually willing to spend to influence who will be in the oval office for the next four years and it's much closer to $8/person than $800. Also, the latest polling suggests 43% of people still approve of Hillary Clinton so now we're talking less than $1.5 billion. Or enough to run the Federal Government for about three hours.

Another datapoint: The Kochs have gathered together a group of 300 ridiculously rich like-minded individuals, and the whole group, Kochs included, is "only" going to spend $0.9 billion this election season, which includes lots of spending on house and senate races.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #103 on: February 15, 2016, 09:54:19 PM »
Like dramaman said, it's a pointless exercise. But here's some math to point out how far off base the numbers being thrown around are.

In 2012 total spending on the presidential election (Obama's campaign, Romney's Campaign, and outside groups like the Kochs) was only $2.6 billion. That's a good benchmark for how much people are actually willing to spend to influence who will be in the oval office for the next four years and it's much closer to $8/person than $800. Also, the latest polling suggests 43% of people still approve of Hillary Clinton so now we're talking less than $1.5 billion. Or enough to run the Federal Government for about three hours.

Another datapoint: The Kochs have gathered together a group of 300 ridiculously rich like-minded individuals, and the whole group, Kochs included, is "only" going to spend $0.9 billion this election season, which includes lots of spending on house and senate races.
I agree it's pointless, and also that I don't think Hillary will go to jail as I stated above, but I'm sure if there could be a guarantee, that if 25 billion were raised than Hillary would go to jail and not be able to run for president, that the money would get raised, but as we agree, this is pointless, it was just a funny thing I thought of, as stated above.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #104 on: February 16, 2016, 02:17:41 AM »
I miss the days when a person could say wild and outlandish things on the Internet and just get shouted at, ridiculed, or otherwise trolled. All this calculation and explaining is really too much!

arebelspy

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #105 on: February 16, 2016, 02:26:29 AM »
I miss the days when a person could say wild and outlandish things on the Internet and just get shouted at, ridiculed, or otherwise trolled. All this calculation and explaining is really too much!

Please provide an Excel spreadsheet to graph the trend in time of the switch from the former to the latter.  Thanks!
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music lover

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #106 on: February 16, 2016, 05:38:11 AM »
What's the point of the obstructionism? Does it matter whether it is Obama or Clinton who appoints? Rimshot

I've already heard suggestions that Obama will stall the nomination so that Clinton can nominated him.

Can she do that from a jail cell?
I don't think she'll go to jail, I think she's got a 90% shot at getting the democratic nomination and then a 50/50 shot at winning president, that being said, here is a funny thing I just thought of. I bet she could do more good for the country if she started a kickstarter that where if she raises $250 billion, she'll resign her campaign and spend 5 years in jail, and then use that money to help the country.

Huh? You think the American people would pay an average of 8 grand apiece for her to spend 5 years in jail?

I don't understand this thought process at all.
Did you make those lottery memes that said everyone could get 1mil each if they split the lottery between everyone? it would be $800 each. The Koch brothers have close to $100 billion alone, I'm sure they would love to see Hillary in jail and a republican president. maybe $100 billion is more reasonable than $250 billion

So, what you are saying is that two people could send her to jail.  Not that the American people could.

I'm going to say that most people who would like to see Hillary in jail probably couldn't rustle up $800 to contribute.
I'm saying the koch brothers would probably put in like $1-$20 billion, lots of people that normally donate to republicans would put in, lots of republicans would throw in some money, I think we would raise more money that would do more good for the country than she could.

On the other hand, a number of democrats would probably pay good money to put the Kochs in jail. Regardless, it's kind of a pointless thought exercise any way you look at it. The chance of Hillary going to jail for the server is probably as much as Bill going to jail for a lying about a blowjob. The only people that think these were even jail worthy offenses are generally those who hate them.

She bypassed national security and broke the law. Do you really believe that is unimportant?

Yeah...Bill was only guilty of lying about a blowjob. Lol.

It looks like your country will be choosing between a TV personality and woman who should be facing criminal charges for deliberately breaching national security. Good luck. Lol.

nereo

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #107 on: February 16, 2016, 06:51:02 AM »
...
It looks like your country will be choosing between a TV personality and woman who should be facing criminal charges for deliberately breaching national security. Good luck. Lol.
pray tell - what country are you from?

zephyr911

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #108 on: February 16, 2016, 07:42:44 AM »
Yeah...Bill was only guilty of lying about a blowjob. Lol.
Logical fallacy: shifting the goalposts. What he was impeached for and what malfeasance he potentially committed in the sum total of his career are separate issues.

Quote
It looks like your country will be choosing between a TV personality and woman who should be facing criminal charges for deliberately breaching national security. Good luck. Lol.
It's not like we're all thrilled about it. I mean, look at the posts in this thread. :P

arebelspy

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #109 on: February 16, 2016, 07:43:08 AM »
...
It looks like your country will be choosing between a TV personality and woman who should be facing criminal charges for deliberately breaching national security. Good luck. Lol.
pray tell - what country are you from?

Canada, per previous posts.
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nereo

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #110 on: February 16, 2016, 08:20:38 AM »
...
It looks like your country will be choosing between a TV personality and woman who should be facing criminal charges for deliberately breaching national security. Good luck. Lol.
pray tell - what country are you from?

Canada, per previous posts.
Ah.  Common music lover, we've had Rob Ford, among others. 
I don't think there's a single nation which hasn't had their share of politicians who embarrass a large portion of the population.  And sometimes the ones that seem like they'll be a complete embarrassment turn out to be not so bad, or even revered (by some) in the end.

dramaman

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #111 on: February 16, 2016, 08:49:54 AM »
What's the point of the obstructionism? Does it matter whether it is Obama or Clinton who appoints? Rimshot

I've already heard suggestions that Obama will stall the nomination so that Clinton can nominated him.

Can she do that from a jail cell?
I don't think she'll go to jail, I think she's got a 90% shot at getting the democratic nomination and then a 50/50 shot at winning president, that being said, here is a funny thing I just thought of. I bet she could do more good for the country if she started a kickstarter that where if she raises $250 billion, she'll resign her campaign and spend 5 years in jail, and then use that money to help the country.

Huh? You think the American people would pay an average of 8 grand apiece for her to spend 5 years in jail?

I don't understand this thought process at all.
Did you make those lottery memes that said everyone could get 1mil each if they split the lottery between everyone? it would be $800 each. The Koch brothers have close to $100 billion alone, I'm sure they would love to see Hillary in jail and a republican president. maybe $100 billion is more reasonable than $250 billion

So, what you are saying is that two people could send her to jail.  Not that the American people could.

I'm going to say that most people who would like to see Hillary in jail probably couldn't rustle up $800 to contribute.
I'm saying the koch brothers would probably put in like $1-$20 billion, lots of people that normally donate to republicans would put in, lots of republicans would throw in some money, I think we would raise more money that would do more good for the country than she could.

On the other hand, a number of democrats would probably pay good money to put the Kochs in jail. Regardless, it's kind of a pointless thought exercise any way you look at it. The chance of Hillary going to jail for the server is probably as much as Bill going to jail for a lying about a blowjob. The only people that think these were even jail worthy offenses are generally those who hate them.

She bypassed national security and broke the law. Do you really believe that is unimportant?

Just repeating that the personal server was against the law does not make it true. At this point none of her accusers have actually been able to prove that a law was definitively broken. All they do is repeat ominous sounding innuendo about security. In Clinton's case, bad security does NOT equal illegal.

justajane

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #112 on: February 16, 2016, 08:55:53 AM »
Just repeating that the personal server was against the law does not make it true. At this point none of her accusers have actually been able to prove that a law was definitively broken. All they do is repeat ominous sounding innuendo about security. In Clinton's case, bad security does NOT equal illegal.

Does this mean that they've finally moved on from Benghazi to other infractions? I don't follow it all that closely.

Jeremy E.

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Kris

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #114 on: February 16, 2016, 09:01:46 AM »
Just repeating that the personal server was against the law does not make it true. At this point none of her accusers have actually been able to prove that a law was definitively broken. All they do is repeat ominous sounding innuendo about security. In Clinton's case, bad security does NOT equal illegal.

Does this mean that they've finally moved on from Benghazi to other infractions? I don't follow it all that closely.

Lol no.  If she gets the nomination, you can bet that BENGHAZI will be all you hear from the right until the actual election.

arebelspy

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brett2k07

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #116 on: February 16, 2016, 09:58:35 AM »
Just repeating that the personal server was against the law does not make it true. At this point none of her accusers have actually been able to prove that a law was definitively broken. All they do is repeat ominous sounding innuendo about security. In Clinton's case, bad security does NOT equal illegal.

You're correct that simply repeating a statement doesn't make it true. It doesn't necessarily look good though.

Even MSNBC is reporting that their sources in the FBI and the Obama administration are saying that the investigation is "far more advanced that we the public knows." They even reported just a few days ago that there are more "explosive revelations" still to come.

There's also two e-mails, one from 2010 and one from 2011 where she seemingly instructs an aide to alter classified documents and send them via non-secure methods (the one in 2010 she specifically asks him to e-mail it to her). So while she may not have sent or received anything "marked" classified as she has stated over and over again, if those items were sent, she clearly knew they were classified. I would imagine that is what the FBI is looking at and trying to determine whether her actions constitute a violation of the law.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #117 on: February 16, 2016, 10:04:04 AM »
Just repeating that the personal server was against the law does not make it true. At this point none of her accusers have actually been able to prove that a law was definitively broken. All they do is repeat ominous sounding innuendo about security. In Clinton's case, bad security does NOT equal illegal.

Does this mean that they've finally moved on from Benghazi to other infractions? I don't follow it all that closely.

I don't understand why people hit Clinton for Benghazi when they could hit her for the awful intervention that helped make Libya a basket case in the first place.

nereo

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #118 on: February 16, 2016, 10:04:42 AM »

Even MSNBC is reporting that their sources in the FBI and the Obama administration are saying that the investigation is "far more advanced that we the public knows." They even reported just a few days ago that there are more "explosive revelations" still to come.


A news organization is saying "stay tuned to this story, there's something exciting to come, but we aren't saying just yet"?  That's not very informative. Of course there's more to an ongoing investigation than the public knows about.  Investigators never reveal everything until the investigation has been concluded, regardless of hte outcome.

DoubleDown

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #119 on: February 16, 2016, 10:11:53 AM »
I realize there's no shortage of hypocrisy among politicians (and in my view particularly among the social conservatives), but I'd really like to hear how the supposed "strict Constitutionalists" a-la Ted Cruz defend the view that the Senate should refuse to even vote on any nomination until the current President is out of office. And that "the American people" should decide (via the next election) who gets nominated [to replace Scalia]. Can they please point out the part in the Constitution where it says that? Or where the people didn't already decide to elect Obama, twice? For God's sake, Scalia himself was a strict interpreter of the Constitution, yet they advocate going completely outside its confines to replace him?

Jeremy E.

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #120 on: February 16, 2016, 10:15:33 AM »
so this may be obamas 3rd supreme court justice appointment, when was the last time a president was able to appoint that many supreme court justices?

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #121 on: February 16, 2016, 10:17:32 AM »
http://www.theonion.com/article/obama-compiles-shortlist-gay-transsexual-abortion--52361

The middle of that was just great.

LET IT BEGIN!

*pauses for a moment to reflect on the deeply rooted cynicism that leads to my enthusiasm for the entertainment value of the coming spectacle...then makes popcorn*

nereo

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #122 on: February 16, 2016, 10:24:08 AM »
so this may be obamas 3rd supreme court justice appointment, when was the last time a president was able to appoint that many supreme court justices?

Does it matter??
Reagan appointed 3, Nixon appointed 4, Eisenhower appointed 5, Truman appointed 4, FDR appointed 8, Hoover appointed 3...  but no one beats Washignton who appointed 10.  Why didn't anyone limit that? (sarcasm)

most every other president in the last 70 years appointed 2, except poor Carter who didn't get any and Ford who got just 1.
It's very fairly common for a president to have appointed at least 3 Supreme court justices.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_by_judicial_appointments

nereo

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #123 on: February 16, 2016, 10:32:14 AM »
Also something interesting I just learned. 
A lot of press lately focuses on how many Circuit Court justices Obama has appointed.  Historically it's not that many compared to previous administrations (since Nixon / 1969).  It's interesting that George HW Bush had 42 despite serving for just one term.  Carter had even more than Obama (also one term).

President   # of circuit court judges appointed
Reagan -    83
Clinton -     66
Bush (W) -  62
Carter    -   56
Obama  -    55
Nixon   -     46
Bush (HW) -42
Ford      -    11

« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 10:35:54 AM by nereo »

Kris

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #124 on: February 16, 2016, 11:43:24 AM »
I realize there's no shortage of hypocrisy among politicians (and in my view particularly among the social conservatives), but I'd really like to hear how the supposed "strict Constitutionalists" a-la Ted Cruz defend the view that the Senate should refuse to even vote on any nomination until the current President is out of office. And that "the American people" should decide (via the next election) who gets nominated [to replace Scalia]. Can they please point out the part in the Constitution where it says that? Or where the people didn't already decide to elect Obama, twice? For God's sake, Scalia himself was a strict interpreter of the Constitution, yet they advocate going completely outside its confines to replace him?

This.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that Republicans are saying the next president should nominate a new Supreme Court Justice. If the tables were turned and there was a vacancy with a year left in a Republican president's term, I'd be thinking "dang, too bad this vacancy didn't happen a year from now". I don't think it would even occur to me to suggest otherwise.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #125 on: February 16, 2016, 11:44:53 AM »
I realize there's no shortage of hypocrisy among politicians (and in my view particularly among the social conservatives), but I'd really like to hear how the supposed "strict Constitutionalists" a-la Ted Cruz defend the view that the Senate should refuse to even vote on any nomination until the current President is out of office. And that "the American people" should decide (via the next election) who gets nominated [to replace Scalia]. Can they please point out the part in the Constitution where it says that? Or where the people didn't already decide to elect Obama, twice? For God's sake, Scalia himself was a strict interpreter of the Constitution, yet they advocate going completely outside its confines to replace him?

First off, a disclaimer that I am one who thinks the nomination/confirmation process should move forward as usual.  I do not agree with Cruz's position.

Second, though, to answer your question, there is nothing in the Constitution that prohibits this from happening -- meaning the Senate is not required by the Constitution to actually vote on the President's nomination, and the Senate can prevent the confirmation process from proceeding to the final vote.

(A)  The confirmation process itself is not explicitly addressed by the Constitution beyond what is specified in Article II, Section 2, Clause 2, providing:
Quote
[The President] shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

(B)  The Constitution also grants the Senate various powers for conducting its business, including, under Article I, Section 5, Clause 2, that "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings."  Under the Rules of the Senate, the President's nomination of any federal judicial appointee would go through the Senate's Judiciary Committee.  Specifically, Rule XXV.1(l).10 provides:

Quote
1. The following standing committees shall be appointed at the commencement of each Congress, and shall continue and have the power to act until their successors are appointed, with leave to report by bill or otherwise on matters within their respective jurisdictions: . . .

(l) Committee on the Judiciary, to which committee shall be referred all proposed legislation, messages, petitions, memorials, and other matters relating to the following subjects: . . .

5. Federal courts and judges.

(C)  The Rules of the Judiciary Committee are published here:  http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/about/rules  They include items such as:
Quote
At the request of any member, or by action of the Chairman, a bill, matter, or nomination on the agenda of the Committee may be held over until the next meeting of the Committee or for one week, whichever occurs later.
(I.3.)

Quote
The Chairman shall entertain a non-debatable motion to bring a matter before the Committee to a vote. If there is objection to bring the matter to a vote without further debate, a roll call vote of the Committee shall be taken, and debate shall be terminated if the motion to bring the matter to a vote without further debate passes with eleven votes in the affirmative, one of which must be cast by the minority.
(IV.)

Thus, the Senate also has the constitutional power to put the nomination through the Committee, which also has the constitutional power to delay voting on the nomination indefinitely so long as they have sufficient number of members who want further debate.

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #126 on: February 16, 2016, 11:51:08 AM »
I realize there's no shortage of hypocrisy among politicians (and in my view particularly among the social conservatives), but I'd really like to hear how the supposed "strict Constitutionalists" a-la Ted Cruz defend the view that the Senate should refuse to even vote on any nomination until the current President is out of office. And that "the American people" should decide (via the next election) who gets nominated [to replace Scalia]. Can they please point out the part in the Constitution where it says that? Or where the people didn't already decide to elect Obama, twice? For God's sake, Scalia himself was a strict interpreter of the Constitution, yet they advocate going completely outside its confines to replace him?

This.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that Republicans are saying the next president should nominate a new Supreme Court Justice. If the tables were turned and there was a vacancy with a year left in a Republican president's term, I'd be thinking "dang, too bad this vacancy didn't happen a year from now". I don't think it would even occur to me to suggest otherwise.

They're just following Schumer's advice: “We should reverse the presumption of confirmation,” Schumer said, according to Politico. “The Supreme Court is dangerously out of balance. We cannot afford to see Justice Scalia replaced by another Ginsburg....”

Of course there might be some errors in that quote.... ;)

Full story with actual quotes: http://www.politico.com/story/2007/07/schumer-to-fight-new-bush-high-court-picks-005146

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #127 on: February 16, 2016, 11:52:38 AM »
I read recently that all process arguments are inherently insincere, because everybody only wants the process to do what would help them. Realistically the President and the Senate each have their powers and acting like the President should refrain from nominating anybody or the Senate should rubber-stamp it is posturing.

Kris

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #128 on: February 16, 2016, 11:56:41 AM »
I read recently that all process arguments are inherently insincere, because everybody only wants the process to do what would help them. Realistically the President and the Senate each have their powers and acting like the President should refrain from nominating anybody or the Senate should rubber-stamp it is posturing.

I dom't think anyone is arguing that the Senate should rubber-stamp anything, though.

nereo

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #129 on: February 16, 2016, 11:59:33 AM »
I realize there's no shortage of hypocrisy among politicians (and in my view particularly among the social conservatives), but I'd really like to hear how the supposed "strict Constitutionalists" a-la Ted Cruz defend the view that the Senate should refuse to even vote on any nomination until the current President is out of office. And that "the American people" should decide (via the next election) who gets nominated [to replace Scalia]. Can they please point out the part in the Constitution where it says that? Or where the people didn't already decide to elect Obama, twice? For God's sake, Scalia himself was a strict interpreter of the Constitution, yet they advocate going completely outside its confines to replace him?

This.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that Republicans are saying the next president should nominate a new Supreme Court Justice. If the tables were turned and there was a vacancy with a year left in a Republican president's term, I'd be thinking "dang, too bad this vacancy didn't happen a year from now". I don't think it would even occur to me to suggest otherwise.

An interesting article about whether a constitutional originalist would support delaying a supreme court nomination.  Scalia was a judge who believed we should always look at the intent of the framers of the constitution at the time it was written (the constitution is a "dead document"). 

If you believe an originalist reading of the constitution, then the senate should not use delay tactics, even if are proceedurally permitted.

Or put another way:  Many want a strict interpretation of the US Constitution except when it doesn't fit their beliefs.  Then they want to defy, amend or ignore it.

zephyr911

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #130 on: February 16, 2016, 12:16:14 PM »
I read recently that all process arguments are inherently insincere, because everybody only wants the process to do what would help them. Realistically the President and the Senate each have their powers and acting like the President should refrain from nominating anybody or the Senate should rubber-stamp it is posturing.

I dom't think anyone is arguing that the Senate should rubber-stamp anything, though.

Correct. Even among hardcore liberals, the outrage is at the idea of categorically rejecting any and all Obama nominees.

It doesn't matter who nominates the judge, if you're only choosing on their merits. This is clearly about political capital and scoring points against the opposition, or a Y/N vote wouldn't be a big deal.

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #131 on: February 16, 2016, 12:22:13 PM »
so this may be obamas 3rd supreme court justice appointment, when was the last time a president was able to appoint that many supreme court justices?

Does it matter??
Reagan appointed 3, Nixon appointed 4, Eisenhower appointed 5, Truman appointed 4, FDR appointed 8, Hoover appointed 3...  but no one beats Washignton who appointed 10.  Why didn't anyone limit that? (sarcasm)

most every other president in the last 70 years appointed 2, except poor Carter who didn't get any and Ford who got just 1.
It's very fairly common for a president to have appointed at least 3 Supreme court justices.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_by_judicial_appointments
I was just asking, it seemed like a lot to me but I wasn't really sure

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #132 on: February 16, 2016, 12:22:43 PM »
I read recently that all process arguments are inherently insincere, because everybody only wants the process to do what would help them. Realistically the President and the Senate each have their powers and acting like the President should refrain from nominating anybody or the Senate should rubber-stamp it is posturing.

I dom't think anyone is arguing that the Senate should rubber-stamp anything, though.

Correct. Even among hardcore liberals, the outrage is at the idea of categorically rejecting any and all Obama nominees.

It doesn't matter who nominates the judge, if you're only choosing on their merits. This is clearly about political capital and scoring points against the opposition, or a Y/N vote wouldn't be a big deal.

So everybody would be fine with it if they simply hurried every nominee through a brief hearing, then voted them down on party-line votes? I think liberals are flattering themselves here.

It's amazing that we uncritically accept Wickard but get into arguments if whether the Constitution intended Congress to be able to be dicks about what nominees to vote on.

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #133 on: February 16, 2016, 12:28:22 PM »
So everybody would be fine with it if they simply hurried every nominee through a brief hearing, then voted them down on party-line votes? I think liberals are flattering themselves here.

False dichotomy. I didn't suggest that, nor do I think most people on the left think so. A reasonable period of time for questioning and debate is generally accepted as part of the process. What is generally not accepted is stating in advance that a year of time will be wasted categorically rejecting all nominees regardless of their merits.

I'm lukewarm at best on Obama and generally disgusted by both parties, but this is worse than average behavior.

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #134 on: February 16, 2016, 12:40:13 PM »
so this may be obamas 3rd supreme court justice appointment, when was the last time a president was able to appoint that many supreme court justices?

Does it matter??
Reagan appointed 3, Nixon appointed 4, Eisenhower appointed 5, Truman appointed 4, FDR appointed 8, Hoover appointed 3...  but no one beats Washignton who appointed 10.  Why didn't anyone limit that? (sarcasm)

most every other president in the last 70 years appointed 2, except poor Carter who didn't get any and Ford who got just 1.
It's very fairly common for a president to have appointed at least 3 Supreme court justices.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_by_judicial_appointments
I was just asking, it seemed like a lot to me but I wasn't really sure
Ok... and sorry.  I tohught I detected a note of incredulance about the number of judges Obama has appointed.  On the postiive side, it caused me to actually look it up, and I learned a few things. Data is fun!

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #135 on: February 16, 2016, 12:50:34 PM »

So everybody would be fine with it if they simply hurried every nominee through a brief hearing, then voted them down on party-line votes? I think liberals are flattering themselves here.

It's amazing that we uncritically accept Wickard but get into arguments if whether the Constitution intended Congress to be able to be dicks about what nominees to vote on.
I don't want anything to be hurried along.  I'm also struggling to understand waht Wickard v Filburn has to do with this discussion.

What I object to is the blatant and very public pronouncements that the senate should delay confirming anyone until the next president.  No nomination has taken longer than 125 days to fill in the past, and no vacancy has taken more than 217 days to fill.  With 330-some days (depending on when a person is nominated) there's no historical evidence to suggest that there isn't sufficient time to go through the normal proceedures.  Almost no one is even attempting to make that argument, instead arguing that the senate should wait... just because.

And yes, i hold the constitution to the cornerstone of our government.

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #136 on: February 16, 2016, 12:57:30 PM »
No nomination has taken longer than 125 days to fill in the past
Careful of survivorship bias: applies to Supreme Court nomination filling time as well as actively managed mutual fund success rates....

nereo

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #137 on: February 16, 2016, 12:59:05 PM »
No nomination has taken longer than 125 days to fill in the past
Careful of survivorship bias: applies to Supreme Court nomination filling time as well as actively managed mutual fund success rates....
how so?  I included even the candidates who were ultimately rejected or withdrew their nomination.

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #138 on: February 16, 2016, 01:04:36 PM »
My husband was saying that categorically stalling the appointment could really come back to bite the GOP in the ass, since, in the past 7 years, Obama has been able to change the landscape of the lower courts so much that they are definitely leaning more progressive and left right now.

If we understand this correctly (and please let me know if we aren't), if there's a 4-4 tie in the Supreme Court, won't a decision of the lower court hold?

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #139 on: February 16, 2016, 01:06:03 PM »
No nomination has taken longer than 125 days to fill in the past
Careful of survivorship bias: applies to Supreme Court nomination filling time as well as actively managed mutual fund success rates....
how so?  I included even the candidates who were ultimately rejected or withdrew their nomination.
Perhaps I misunderstand the definition of "nomination has taken longer than 125 days to fill"?  I read "fill" as "be confirmed" - how should it be read?

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #140 on: February 16, 2016, 01:12:15 PM »
I don't want anything to be hurried along.  I'm also struggling to understand waht Wickard v Filburn has to do with this discussion.

What I object to is the blatant and very public pronouncements that the senate should delay confirming anyone until the next president.  No nomination has taken longer than 125 days to fill in the past, and no vacancy has taken more than 217 days to fill.  With 330-some days (depending on when a person is nominated) there's no historical evidence to suggest that there isn't sufficient time to go through the normal proceedures.  Almost no one is even attempting to make that argument, instead arguing that the senate should wait... just because.

The closest thing to a rational argument that I've seen amounts to "yes, the people have spoken by electing POTUS, but they also spoke in the 2010/2014 midterm elections".
It's an obvious go-to argument for conservatives, but has the slight problem of referring to successes largely garnered through gerrymandering and vote suppression. Many of the lauded "Tea Party freshmen" were sent to DC in spite of a blue popular vote, or on slim majorities after GOP anti-turnout efforts. Incidentally, many of them are leaving office because they or their supporters aren't happy with how things turned out once they got there.

Has anyone seen anything else offered?

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #141 on: February 16, 2016, 01:32:32 PM »
I don't want anything to be hurried along.  I'm also struggling to understand waht Wickard v Filburn has to do with this discussion.

What I object to is the blatant and very public pronouncements that the senate should delay confirming anyone until the next president.  No nomination has taken longer than 125 days to fill in the past, and no vacancy has taken more than 217 days to fill.  With 330-some days (depending on when a person is nominated) there's no historical evidence to suggest that there isn't sufficient time to go through the normal proceedures.  Almost no one is even attempting to make that argument, instead arguing that the senate should wait... just because.

The closest thing to a rational argument that I've seen amounts to "yes, the people have spoken by electing POTUS, but they also spoke in the 2010/2014 midterm elections".
It's an obvious go-to argument for conservatives, but has the slight problem of referring to successes largely garnered through gerrymandering and vote suppression. Many of the lauded "Tea Party freshmen" were sent to DC in spite of a blue popular vote, or on slim majorities after GOP anti-turnout efforts. Incidentally, many of them are leaving office because they or their supporters aren't happy with how things turned out once they got there.

Has anyone seen anything else offered?

Gerrymandering the Senate would be pretty impressive! (Note to foreigners who don't know: Senators are elected from entire states. You can't just move the line between Ohio and Pennsylvania for convenience, so senators' districts cannot be gerrymandered. Only the Senate votes on confirming Supreme Court nominees.)

And while there's clearly some gerrymandering to favor Republicans - certainly here in Pennsylvania- it's actually really hard to move the lines in a way that favors Democrats in a way that would flip control of the House while preserving VRA-required majority-minority districts. Democrats' voters are geographically concentrated. Imagine the squiggles radiating out from Philadelphia you'd have to make to split it into competitive districts rather than the 2 no-contest Democratic districts it has now. But the House has no relevance to this discussion anyways.

The reference to Wickard v Filburn upthread was my being incredulous that we argue about what's proper for branches of government to do with powers explicitly granted by the Constitution when we've somehow read into the Constitution a power for the federal government to decide how much wheat can be grown on individual farms.

(I do think the Senate Republicans are being silly in saying "don't even try" when they could look approachable and say "nominate somebody we can confirm" - but I think the result would be exactly the same, so I'm not sure why everybody's so upset about it if they're not just posturing.)

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #142 on: February 16, 2016, 01:32:54 PM »
I was saddened by the news. While I often disagreed with his various opinions (dissenting, majority, concurring, etc.), I did agree with a lot of his votes. Additionally, I think that he was someone who understood and explored the constitution more than... well, honestly, anyone. And I really liked that he tried to keep it to the intent and meaning of the constitution. If we don't like the way something reads, we should be adding an amendment to the constitution rather than interpreting existing amendments in such stretched ways that makes it difficult.

I doubt we'll see another person who understood and defended the constitution as much as he did. I'm not sure I liked that about him, but it certainly is something to be admired.

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #143 on: February 16, 2016, 01:47:27 PM »

So everybody would be fine with it if they simply hurried every nominee through a brief hearing, then voted them down on party-line votes? I think liberals are flattering themselves here.

It's amazing that we uncritically accept Wickard but get into arguments if whether the Constitution intended Congress to be able to be dicks about what nominees to vote on.
I don't want anything to be hurried along.  I'm also struggling to understand waht Wickard v Filburn has to do with this discussion.

What I object to is the blatant and very public pronouncements that the senate should delay confirming anyone until the next president.  No nomination has taken longer than 125 days to fill in the past, and no vacancy has taken more than 217 days to fill.  With 330-some days (depending on when a person is nominated) there's no historical evidence to suggest that there isn't sufficient time to go through the normal proceedures.  Almost no one is even attempting to make that argument, instead arguing that the senate should wait... just because.

And yes, i hold the constitution to the cornerstone of our government.
Henry Baldwin died April 21 1844 and was replaced by Robert Grier on august 4 1846, about 2 years and 4 months of vacancy

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #144 on: February 16, 2016, 01:51:49 PM »
Even MSNBC is reporting that their sources in the FBI and the Obama administration are saying that the investigation is "far more advanced that we the public knows." They even reported just a few days ago that there are more "explosive revelations" still to come.

"Explosive Revelations"?

When the hell did we put Maury Povich in charge of the FBI?

zephyr911

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #145 on: February 16, 2016, 01:53:53 PM »
Gerrymandering the Senate would be pretty impressive! (Note to foreigners who don't know: Senators are elected from entire states. You can't just move the line between Ohio and Pennsylvania for convenience, so senators' districts cannot be gerrymandered. Only the Senate votes on confirming Supreme Court nominees.)

And while there's clearly some gerrymandering to favor Republicans - certainly here in Pennsylvania- it's actually really hard to move the lines in a way that favors Democrats in a way that would flip control of the House while preserving VRA-required majority-minority districts. Democrats' voters are geographically concentrated. Imagine the squiggles radiating out from Philadelphia you'd have to make to split it into competitive districts rather than the 2 no-contest Democratic districts it has now. But the House has no relevance to this discussion anyways.

The reference to Wickard v Filburn upthread was my being incredulous that we argue about what's proper for branches of government to do with powers explicitly granted by the Constitution when we've somehow read into the Constitution a power for the federal government to decide how much wheat can be grown on individual farms.

(I do think the Senate Republicans are being silly in saying "don't even try" when they could look approachable and say "nominate somebody we can confirm" - but I think the result would be exactly the same, so I'm not sure why everybody's so upset about it if they're not just posturing.)

I named two factors, each with varying applicability. The claim is not just that the current Senate majority means a Dem POTUS shouldn't get to nominate anyone, but that both of those elections signify a collective turning against Obama's policies by the American electorate at large.

Of course, if 2010 was so telling, you'd think he'd have been ousted in 2012, but these things start and end with polemics and hysteria and only briefly flirt with logic on a good day, so what should we expect....

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #146 on: February 16, 2016, 02:08:41 PM »
I named two factors, each with varying applicability.
And one of them had zero applicability, which I thought was worth pointing out.

Quote
The claim is not just that the current Senate majority means a Dem POTUS shouldn't get to nominate anyone, but that both of those elections signify a collective turning against Obama's policies by the American electorate at large.

I'm not sure that's the claim. (I'm sure somebody's making that claim, but they're not very smart.) But the American people did elect the current President and the current Senate, so they chose to pit the branches against each other. I don't think the framers would be surprised to hear that a Senate refused to confirm any nominees of a President to a particular post.

I think this is a bad strategy on the part of the Republicans, but I don't understand the outrage.

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #147 on: February 16, 2016, 02:15:19 PM »
I don't think the framers would be surprised to hear that a Senate refused to confirm any nominees of a President to a particular post.

I don't think the framers would be surprised to hear that a Senate refused to confirm a particular nominee, but I think they'd be very surprised -- and dismayed -- that what passes for "statesmanship" has degenerated so much that those assholes think it's okay to refuse all nominees, categorically without even considering them on their merits!

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #148 on: February 16, 2016, 02:17:12 PM »
I realize there's no shortage of hypocrisy among politicians (and in my view particularly among the social conservatives), but I'd really like to hear how the supposed "strict Constitutionalists" a-la Ted Cruz defend the view that the Senate should refuse to even vote on any nomination until the current President is out of office. And that "the American people" should decide (via the next election) who gets nominated [to replace Scalia]. Can they please point out the part in the Constitution where it says that? Or where the people didn't already decide to elect Obama, twice? For God's sake, Scalia himself was a strict interpreter of the Constitution, yet they advocate going completely outside its confines to replace him?

The rules are only important if they conform to what you want, otherwise they may be conveniently ignored.  Hell, I'm STILL waiting for that whole "Well regulated militia" thing to happen so we can let people own guns.  Oh wait....

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Re: Scalia died
« Reply #149 on: February 16, 2016, 02:18:20 PM »
I named two factors, each with varying applicability.
And one of them had zero applicability, which I thought was worth pointing out.
Let me clarify: the claim I have seen, regarding 2010 and 2014, is not merely about the elected officials currently considering whether to approve SCOTUS nominees, but about the will of the American people and the inferences that can be drawn about it, based on those elections. And 2010 is primarily noted for the sea change in the House.
Quote
Quote
The claim is not just that the current Senate majority means a Dem POTUS shouldn't get to nominate anyone, but that both of those elections signify a collective turning against Obama's policies by the American electorate at large.
I'm not sure that's the claim. (I'm sure somebody's making that claim, but they're not very smart.) But the American people did elect the current President and the current Senate, so they chose to pit the branches against each other. I don't think the framers would be surprised to hear that a Senate refused to confirm any nominees of a President to a particular post.
I was the one who brought this claim up, because I observed it being made in various media. And I don't know if everyone making it is "not very smart", because politicians tend to get great mileage out of being disingenuous. Smart people spend plenty of time saying dumb things to manipulate dumb people.
Quote
I think this is a bad strategy on the part of the Republicans, but I don't understand the outrage.
I agree, and I'm not outraged but I could understand how a committed partisan might be.