Santa

[BookValue]

I have a 2 year old daughter, and haven't figured out how to incorporate the Santa thing into our Christmas routine. My wife is Jewish and told me she doesn't care what we do, so it's my decision since my family "believed" in him.

As a kid I figured out he (*spoilers*) wasn't real when I was in 1st or 2nd grade. The whole concept just didn't make sense to me, and then it rubbed me the wrong way that my parents and sister were lying to me about the whole thing. My sister made up elaborate stories about seeing Rudolph and Santa. This makes me not want to do the same thing to my daughter. I also greatly dislike how the threat of Santa seeing you being naughty is used to try and control behavior. Then there's the issue where stuff just magically appears without being paid for, don't like that lesson.

So how do other mustachians handle Santa? Am I overthinking this and being a grinch?

[Prairie Stash]

Grinch; do you also plan on skipping the tooth fairy and Easter bunny? Go ahead and enjoy the fun, as a parent Santa is a lot of fun, its a great game for the family.

Santa has benefits to children, it helps kids get caught up in a magical world of excitement and possibility. The emotional reaction lasts a lifetime; it instills a positive reinforcement around the holidays (brain chemistry is still forming, its not just memories, its actual brain development). Look at it from a 2 years old view point, the world is already confusing and here you have an exciting event to dream about, kids love imagining exciting future events.

Families with strong emotional attachments tend to gather at the holidays later on, those without tend to stay home. Think of it this way, if your kid has warm nostalgia about Christmas, will she make an extra effort to visit when she's 30? If you don't have Santa, what traditions do you plan on incorporating? If you skip Santa I highly recommend finding an alternative.

[NoStacheOhio]

It depends a lot on your personal experience. If you had a bad Santa experience, then it's totally reasonable that you're wary of putting your kid through the same thing.

If you decide not to do the Santa thing, that's totally OK.

For me, it's more about the spirit and magic than any concrete reality. We started reading Polar Express to our four-year-old son this year. I have to make my wife read the second half of the book, because I get choked up. Not about literal Santa the person, but about what the idea Santa represents in the world, and the wonderment of childhood.

[little_brown_dog]

I love the tradition of Santa – you can make it as elaborate or as simple as you like. Our parents never talked about Santa as only a way to score neat stuff, he was always described as the epitome of generosity. What kind of person walks around in the freezing cold, trying to bring joy to complete strangers? An awesome, selfless one that’s who. Santa is who you portray him to be. If you are worried about materialism or lack of appreciation, why not limit yourself to a single gift from Santa? The rest can be from you, or gasp...you could do it the old school way and only give one gift per child!

When we were little, my parents kept up the Santa routine until we naturally started asking questions/showing heavy suspicion on our own. At that point they said that Santa is more like a feeling of giving special attention and love to your family, almost like a “spirit of Santa” and not a real person. I personally never felt cheated/lied to etc because my parents didn’t insist on keeping up the game past the point where it was logical to do so. Even as a youngster I remember understanding why my parents did the whole Santa thing. I still remember it fondly as a way my parents showed how much they loved us, not as a way they lied to us.

 It is always a bit strange to me when I meet people who resent their families for playing Santa. I can't help but wonder if they are just particularly sensitive, or if their families really messed up the concept somehow.

[okits]

it rubbed me the wrong way that my parents and sister were lying to me about the whole thing.

I also greatly dislike how the threat of Santa seeing you being naughty is used to try and control behavior.

Then there's the issue where stuff just magically appears without being paid for, don't like that lesson.

I struggle with this.  I dislike how the Santa story conflicts with things I, as a parent, want to teach. 

I realize, though, that being directly honest about Santa with a toddler (a child too young to have a filter) is the nuclear option, as far as getting blowback from family and other kids' parents (if I tell her Santa isn't real she's going to repeat that.  She's too young to understand "Santa is a representation of our goodwill and generosity at Christmas".)  When your child is too young to exercise discretion your parenting decision against telling the Santa story comes into direct conflict with other people's parenting decision to go pro-Santa. 

DH and his family are with the mainstream with Santa, but I've told him how I feel and I've told the in-laws that I want to de-emphasize Santa in favour of Christmas being a time to focus on family.  For now, I'm not actively promoting Santa and I'll discourage (if it comes up) Santa as a disciplinary tactic or as a way to score a big haul of free toys.

Ours isn't the only culture to have folklore figures and stories associated with holidays, so I think some of this is a clash of modern circumstances and attitudes vs. tradition.  I wouldn't be so concerned about materialism if kids were likely to ask Santa for a Christmas orange and a new pair of socks.  There was no need to explicitly focus on family during the holidays if you never lived a day's walk further than where you were born, nor did anyone else.

[galliver]

I'm going to let a great author speak for me (one of my favorite book/movie quotes): http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/66591-all-right-said-susan-i-m-not-stupid-you-re-saying-humans I think the conversation stands on its own, but if it doesn't, the film is one of my favorite Christmas movies (not *actually* sure if I've read the book but I'm sure it's excellent because it's Pratchett).

We didn't exactly have Santa, we had Father Frost; no flying reindeer, just magic. He stops time and walks through walls and leaves presents under the tree. And doesn't have a big factory with elves at the North Pole. I remember the reveal being pretty gradual; around ages 8-10 we (me&friends) were trying to catch the parents putting gifts under the tree while they kept insisting it was "Father Frost". I think eventually we got "the talk" about how yes, obviously we now know, but wasn't pretending fun and we should keep it up for the younger sibs. But once the youngest one figured it out the ruse was dropped pretty quickly. Though it still comes up like "If there's any accessories to [birthday gift] that you'd like, Father Frost is accepting requests." Fun holiday tradition.

I'm with little_brown_dog in not understanding why/how people are so offended that their parents "lied" to them. I guess for me it registered in retrospect like part game of make-believe together, part long-term puzzle for us to figure out (develops critical thinking!) They put in an effort to create the fantasy, and I appreciate it in retrospect. Having the wonder and belief in magic was fun while it lasted. But I suppose a part of it was that it was never used punitively or threateningly. And maybe, by the time I found out, I didn't see my parents as guaranteed 100% honest, either. I knew about white lies.

[GuitarStv]

There's no reason to lie to your kid (my parents didn't).  You can pretend that Santa's real without actually saying that he is.  Little kids won't know to ask, and by the time they're old enough to ask they should be old enough to understand your response that pretending about Santa is just another tradition . . . like putting up a tree or drinking Egg Nog.

Then there's no worry about hurt feelings later on.



As an aside . . . You have a dude dressed up in red, who likes little kids to sit on his lap, whose sole purpose is to take away focus of the holiday from the birth of Jesus and place it on the value of gettin' stuff . . . and his name is an anagram for 'Satan'.  That's awesome!

[little_brown_dog]

Been thinking more about this…I like the idea of giving 1 gift from Santa, 1 from mommy/daddy, and 1 from sibs/pets, for a total of 3 presents per child. Some Christians I know do the 3 gift rule (apparently Jesus only got 3 gifts from the 3 wise men), and follow the idea of “one you need, one you want, and one you eat/read”.  Santa can bring the thing you want, mommy/daddy can give you what you need, and the one you eat/read can be a shared experience with siblings/pets (ex: sharing a box of candies or reading together). This reduces materialism, increases appreciation, and prevents parents from having to race around buying tons of gifts.

[MasterStache]

My daughter has never asked weather Santa is real or not. So no need to lie. Once she asks, I'll be honest. About the time my son started asking, it was pretty obvious he already knew the answer. So again, no need to lie.

I don't remember getting upset as a child when I found out. Heck to me, it meant my parents were hiding the gifts somewhere in the house and I turned it into a game of figuring out where they were. My siblings and I were very successful at this "game."
 

[sol]

My family constantly discusses with the kids the differences between things that are real and things that are not. Hedhehogs are real, even though you've never seen one, let's fire up YouTube.  Dragons are not.  Robots yes, Transformers no.  If you're ever confused about whether something is real or not, one easy way to tell is to ask if it is magic or not.  Magic isn't real, so harry potter isn't real.  Magic is only in books and movies and stories, which are fun, but not real life.

This is confusing for kids up until about age five or six.  What about pirates?  What about ants that talk?

We roll with Santa for the little ones, but as soon as they start asking how Santa flies around the whole world in one night, we are clear that it is magic.  It's always been the year AFTER we have that discussion that they then tell us Santa isn't real.

Side effects of this approach include reduced fear of monsters in the closet, a natural inclination toward atheism, and increased gratitude for the material gifts that mom and dad provide.

[TheOldestYoungMan]

I didn't ever really get the problem.  Santa is/was your parents.  It's like an alter ego.  It's not that he doesn't exist, he exists as a manifestation of their love and generosity.  That you get gifts even though you are bad is about discussing the notion of unconditional forgiveness.

It isn't necessary to make an overt lie, you can pretend not to see the images of Santa, act confused when they ask about him.  Outright deny his existence, don't hear the bell ringing.  That Polar Express thing gave you all the cover you need.

I toy with the idea of bad santa, a villain who terrorizes children who fail to bring their father tributes.  That way when I encountered a grinch I could act haughty, "you think telling them Santa isn't real will undo your personal damage?  Amateur!  To cancel it out you have to go full tilt the other direction!"  Would need a wife that went along with it.  And kids.  Nevermind, too much trouble.

[TheOldestYoungMan]

My family constantly discusses with the kids the differences between things that are real and things that are not. Hedhehogs are real, even though you've never seen one, let's fire up YouTube.  Dragons are not.  Robots yes, transformers no. 

You may not believe in transformers Sol, but trust me, they exist.

https://www.amazon.com/USA-Philippines-Transformer-ACUPWR-AD-1000/dp/B00EHLCN2Q/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1481051087&sr=8-15&keywords=electrical+transformer

I believe that one is of the "auto" variety.

[BookValue]

A few people have commented on getting upset about the lie. What  bothered me was my parents insistence on continuing the lie, they just wouldn't let it go until I was much older.

Unfortunately I don't think my daughter will let me get away without explicitly saying where something is from. She keeps asking questions until she gets a satisfactory (to her) answer. For instance, some friends gave her a Minnie Mouse doll and wanted her to think it was from Minnie herself in Disney. That didn't make sense to her, so after several minutes of failed explanation and her continued questions, they admitted to it being from them. (Apparently her brain works like mine). I like the idea of keeping it vague though, so I can give it a try.

okits, I like your idea to emphasize family and other aspects of the holiday. For my family it was always about the gifts, which is probably why my parents couldn't let go of Santa.

GuitarStv - Mall santa's always creeped me out. Some guy who enjoys having kids sit on his lap? No thanks

[shelivesthedream]

I think Santa can teach some really fucked up lessons:

1. Your parents lie to you for multiple years about something completely made up.
2. All the Christmas presents are made by Santa's magical elves so you can ask for anything you want without regard to price, except that poor children do get fewer presents than rich children, but whatever.
3. Someone is watching you all the time.
4. Present-getting is fundamentally conditional.
5. Reasons 3 and 4 are the only reasons to be good.
6. Christmas is about getting presents.

However, I think this is largely down to tone and to what else is going on at Christmas. My brother and I used to put out a mince pie, glass of sherry and a carrot for the reindeer LONG LONG after we had both figured out that Father Christmas didn't exist because it was a fun Christmas tradition. But the "dream" of Father Christmas finally died (after several years of suspicion, at around age ten) when I clocked that he had the exact same handwriting as my mother. I was kind of pissed off at the time that they had "lied" to me for so long, but I think I was just frustrated I hadn't figured it out earlier. I don't think it left any lasting scars. :)

That said, if we have children, we're not going to "do" Father Christmas/Santa. He'll be a story, like Narnia or Harry Potter or the Greek gods and goddesses, and we'll probably tell the story at Christmastime but any presents will be firmly labelled "with love from Mum and Dad". We're really not that into the "magic" of Christmas, though, as I hate the hyped-up thing it has become. I feel like our society has a) devalued the true meaning of Christmas (which IS Jesus, not "family" or "tradition" or whatever, although those things are nice too) and b) made Christmas into such a colossal event that it's like the rest of the year is just about waiting for Christmas or recovering from it. It's no longer about getting together to eat some special food and spend time with the ones you love (let alone remembering the nativity) but rather about needing to have some "perfect magical experience" of things that can "only happen at Christmas time", like being nice to people. WTF?

(/Grinch) :)

[BookValue]

(/Grinch) :)

Glad I'm not the only grinch here :)

[Margie]

This thread made me smile - My children are older now so they know the real deal....but when they were younger we did 3 gifts because of the three wise men.  Typically they got what they asked for.  They were allowed to ask for 3 things.   In total, they would get 3 great gifts, a gift from mom, dad and sibling so 6 to open and a rocking stocking.  I would even put video games in it.  Stocking was probably worth as much as their gifts.
At school my daughter wrote a letter to santa asking for a cookie, a donut and a piece of lego.  I kid you not!  The teacher actually called me to ask if everything was ok.  (my children go to a religious school so I thought she'd appreciate the 3 wise men reason)  I think she thought I was nuts.
Anyhow, my children believed for a long time because Santa was way more generous than Daddy.  My son once told my husband that he would always love him even though he gave him socks and Santa gave him Thomas the train! 
Fun times! 
Enjoy the magic!   

[Chris22]

This thread made me smile - My children are older now so they know the real deal....but when they were younger we did 3 gifts because of the three wise men.  Typically they got what they asked for.

I plan to do the same for my daughter that my parents did for me; we always got what we asked for, but we were coached on what we asked for down to a reasonable level.  ("Santa can't make an XXX for you, he's got all those kids to make presents for and that is a big gift!")  And then as we got older, my parents used Christmas as a reason/excuse to get us fancy things that they were going to do for us anyways, like the year we got a new family computer (in the 1990s, when they were still moderately expensive) and family vacations.

Frankly, if you're upset with your family for lying to you about Santa, how do you reconcile that with the fact that they were doing it to secretly give you gifts the entire time?   

[BookValue]

Frankly, if you're upset with your family for lying to you about Santa, how do you reconcile that with the fact that they were doing it to secretly give you gifts the entire time?

A lot of people seem to have the mindset that lying is OK, as long as your heart is in the right place. Not just being evasive or stretching the truth, but bold face lying directly to kids. It's a mindset that I just don't understand.

[Chris22]

Frankly, if you're upset with your family for lying to you about Santa, how do you reconcile that with the fact that they were doing it to secretly give you gifts the entire time?

A lot of people seem to have the mindset that lying is OK, as long as your heart is in the right place. Not just being evasive or stretching the truth, but bold face lying directly to kids. It's a mindset that I just don't understand.

I agree with them.  Really, you are going to make an issue of lying to your kids about Santa?  Really?  Come on man. 

[tomsang]

The Santa thing is interesting.  I had trouble lying to my kids about Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc.  When they asked, I told them the truth and told them that it would not be appropriate to tell their friends or other kids. That some people take this very seriously and that you would not want to spoil it for others.  We then discussed how these stories and holidays were Pagan stories that were adopted by Christians.  They were very interested in how the Pagan traditions were incorporated into the modern day traditions.

[MasterStache]

I think Santa can teach some really fucked up lessons:

1. Your parents lie to you for multiple years about something completely made up.
2. All the Christmas presents are made by Santa's magical elves so you can ask for anything you want without regard to price, except that poor children do get fewer presents than rich children, but whatever.
3. Someone is watching you all the time.
4. Present-getting is fundamentally conditional.
5. Reasons 3 and 4 are the only reasons to be good.
6. Christmas is about getting presents.

However, I think this is largely down to tone and to what else is going on at Christmas. My brother and I used to put out a mince pie, glass of sherry and a carrot for the reindeer LONG LONG after we had both figured out that Father Christmas didn't exist because it was a fun Christmas tradition. But the "dream" of Father Christmas finally died (after several years of suspicion, at around age ten) when I clocked that he had the exact same handwriting as my mother. I was kind of pissed off at the time that they had "lied" to me for so long, but I think I was just frustrated I hadn't figured it out earlier. I don't think it left any lasting scars. :)

That said, if we have children, we're not going to "do" Father Christmas/Santa. He'll be a story, like Narnia or Harry Potter or the Greek gods and goddesses, and we'll probably tell the story at Christmastime but any presents will be firmly labelled "with love from Mum and Dad". We're really not that into the "magic" of Christmas, though, as I hate the hyped-up thing it has become. I feel like our society has a) devalued the true meaning of Christmas (which IS Jesus, not "family" or "tradition" or whatever, although those things are nice too) and b) made Christmas into such a colossal event that it's like the rest of the year is just about waiting for Christmas or recovering from it. It's no longer about getting together to eat some special food and spend time with the ones you love (let alone remembering the nativity) but rather about needing to have some "perfect magical experience" of things that can "only happen at Christmas time", like being nice to people. WTF?

(/Grinch) :)

I kinda laughed when I read this. Partly because I agree and partly because I never felt any of these things when I myself found out Santa wasn't real (with exception of getting presents).

I am not a fan of Christmas myself because of the whole greed and expectations (presents) that come with it. I do however, absolutely LOVE time with family and time away from work. Case in point my wife gave the kids a booklet with various toys in it. My daughter proceeded to circle every single toy. My wife didn't think much of it but I was a bit taken back. What the hell are we teaching these kids?? Maybe I am over reacting. I did ask for a $10 pair of house slippers myself to replace my messed up $3 pair.

Sorry OP, sort of diverting away from the topic. 

[firelight]

We are not Christians (so don't have any precedence of family celebrating with Santa) but my kid picked up the Santa craze from her daycare (she is two). So far, we've been playing along and made a wreath together and stuck a Santa on it. So far, she's been happy wishing the wreath Santa good morning and goodbye. As long as she doesn't ask about presents, I guess we'll just stick to our wreath Santa. When she does, I like the idea of one want, one need and one to eat/read. When did your kids go from knowing Santa to knowing he brings presents?

I believe kids need magic in lives and to believe in something outside of what they see. If my daughter is happy with a $10 Santa, why not? :)

[Chris22]

Case in point my wife gave the kids a booklet with various toys in it. My daughter proceeded to circle every single toy. My wife didn't think much of it but I was a bit taken back. What the hell are we teaching these kids??

Other way around, in my opinion.  Christmas is a great time to teach kids about unlimited wants and limited resources.  Your kid is of course going to circle every toy, so you turn that into a learning opportunity to say something about Santa can only give each kid a few toys because there has to be enough to go around, so it's important to think about which toys you truly want and will really play with, and that one you circled you have one like it and you don't use it so why would you want another and blah blah blah.  And when the kid is older and over Santa, you can teach about budgets and how you've set aside a certain amount of money for Christmas, and her percentage is xx% so if we buy you AAA then that's the whole budget, or you can get BBB, CCC, and DDD instead and on and on.

[MasterStache]

Case in point my wife gave the kids a booklet with various toys in it. My daughter proceeded to circle every single toy. My wife didn't think much of it but I was a bit taken back. What the hell are we teaching these kids??

Other way around, in my opinion.  Christmas is a great time to teach kids about unlimited wants and limited resources.  Your kid is of course going to circle every toy, so you turn that into a learning opportunity to say something about Santa can only give each kid a few toys because there has to be enough to go around, so it's important to think about which toys you truly want and will really play with, and that one you circled you have one like it and you don't use it so why would you want another and blah blah blah.  And when the kid is older and over Santa, you can teach about budgets and how you've set aside a certain amount of money for Christmas, and her percentage is xx% so if we buy you AAA then that's the whole budget, or you can get BBB, CCC, and DDD instead and on and on.

That's actually what we do. We just explain it differently to each of our children. We told our son he literally gets 1 large present and 2 smaller presents. All within a set budget.

It's funny because he's been asking a lot lately about weather we are broke or not because of comments we make about not spending money and/or not buying things. It's a great opportunity for me and my wife to explain finances, material things etc. to him. I actually enjoy the conversations and hope he is learning something from them.  I wish my parents would have taught me more about savings. They spent thousands on myself and my 2 siblings every Christmas.

[Papa Mustache]

I love the tradition of Santa – you can make it as elaborate or as simple as you like. Our parents never talked about Santa as only a way to score neat stuff, he was always described as the epitome of generosity. What kind of person walks around in the freezing cold, trying to bring joy to complete strangers? An awesome, selfless one that’s who. Santa is who you portray him to be. If you are worried about materialism or lack of appreciation, why not limit yourself to a single gift from Santa? The rest can be from you, or gasp...you could do it the old school way and only give one gift per child!

When we were little, my parents kept up the Santa routine until we naturally started asking questions/showing heavy suspicion on our own. At that point they said that Santa is more like a feeling of giving special attention and love to your family, almost like a “spirit of Santa” and not a real person. I personally never felt cheated/lied to etc because my parents didn’t insist on keeping up the game past the point where it was logical to do so. Even as a youngster I remember understanding why my parents did the whole Santa thing. I still remember it fondly as a way my parents showed how much they loved us, not as a way they lied to us.

That was beautiful....

[Papa Mustache]

My family constantly discusses with the kids the differences between things that are real and things that are not. Hedhehogs are real, even though you've never seen one, let's fire up YouTube.  Dragons are not.  Robots yes, Transformers no.  If you're ever confused about whether something is real or not, one easy way to tell is to ask if it is magic or not.  Magic isn't real, so harry potter isn't real.  Magic is only in books and movies and stories, which are fun, but not real life.

This is confusing for kids up until about age five or six.  What about pirates?  What about ants that talk?

We roll with Santa for the little ones, but as soon as they start asking how Santa flies around the whole world in one night, we are clear that it is magic.  It's always been the year AFTER we have that discussion that they then tell us Santa isn't real.

Side effects of this approach include reduced fear of monsters in the closet, a natural inclination toward atheism, and increased gratitude for the material gifts that mom and dad provide.

I think that serves a child well later in life as an adult. Might help some adults with "fake news", social media and rumors that we all face in grade school or at work.

[Kris]

Coincidentally, I just saw this article and I really liked the concept.

I don't have kids, but I thought I'd pass this along for those of you who do.

http://www.scarymommy.com/viral-post-breaking-santa-news-to-kids/?utm_source=FB

[GuitarStv]

We are not Christians (so don't have any precedence of family celebrating with Santa)

Santa isn't Christian (although the whole Santa thing is often done by Christians) . . . he's largely a commercial construct with the modern version only having a tangential relationship to St. Nicholas.

[shelivesthedream]

We are not Christians (so don't have any precedence of family celebrating with Santa)

Santa isn't Christian (although the whole Santa thing is often done by Christians) . . . he's largely a commercial construct with the modern version only having a tangential relationship to St. Nicholas.

I read that as meaning that firelight is a different religion so doesn't "do" Christmas but celebrates something else, like Hannukah - but their child has still cottoned onto Santa Claus.