In this thread I'm seeing people saying that is if abortion is denied or outlawed it will lead to more children suffering, being neglected, living in poverty, and more mothers will die etc.
The issue with this argument is that you're justifying using evil means of abortion (taking innocent life) to achieve a positive result. Catholics believe that life is inherently good and acting against good is evil.
If we accept this one evil to achieve a perceived good end then how much more evil can we justify doing? If we allow abortion then anyone can claim that they are doing a so-called "necessary evil" for the greater good. We then spiral down this rabbit hole of evil where everyone is subjectively justifying their evil actions claiming that good will coming from it.
For Catholics, we can never knowingly and deliberately justify committing evil even if the intended end is good.
I can respect your belief.
There are two main threads of my (serious) problems with the Catholic Church. First, it's sincerely operating with a set of rules that are hundreds or thousands of years old. Second, it's insincerely operating with influences and priorities that are very much set by men, those men were often corrupt, and those influences and priorities are frequently contradictory to the sincerely held set of beliefs.
When you have a set of rules that are designed for life hundreds or thousands of years ago, it's not going to work very well as a specific blueprint for the realities of 2022. Combine that with the problems that results from the often corrupt human influences, and the Catholic Church as a whole has some serious issues to contend with.
Why should I respect a Church when they say that all life matters, when there are literally dozens of instances that I am aware of, that happened within the last 100 years, when the Catholic church acted in such a way that clearly indicated some lives didn't matter? That history exists and it is documented fact. I can't respect the Catholic Church as an institution, because it has acted in such a way that has lost my respect. Not once, but repeatedly.
That doesn't mean I can't respect individual Catholics. I can, and do. I know people who hold Catholic beliefs and they truly try to live according to them. They are some of the best overall people that I know. Not because they're perfect, but because they try. However, those people are also keenly aware of the consequences of what their beliefs can be. (They're also my adopted second family, so yeah, I know them pretty well.)
You're entitled to your religious beliefs. I am entitled to not comply with your religious beliefs. And vice versa. I will never say that a woman has to have an abortion. That's not my decision to make. But that woman should have the option to have an abortion.
First, this is absolutely a good read:
A pro-life friend of mine wrote this a few years ago. Please read it - it's worth the time.
To that point, the end-goal of conservative Christianity (and conservative religions in general) is a return to a theocratic society. None of us in this thread, including devout Catholics or Chrisitans may personally advocate for that end, but that's the goal.
Less-so for Catholics* and more-so for evangelical and classically conservative Christians (Mormans & the LDS, Jehovah's Witnessess, Southern Baptists, etc.) but generally for those who are devoted to their faith is the notion that 1) as a society we've strayed away from God and 2) it is a moral imperative to evangelize. As in, not only are you as an individual responsible for avoiding moral sins and following the teachings of the Church, but your actions (including and especially voting) should reflect the teachings of your Church. Choosing to vote for a pro-abortion elected official, among many other things, is as much a sin as being pro-abortion yourself.
I would wager that the grand majority of people who consider themselves reasonably Christian definitely don't want to see any society end up like
The Handmaid's Tale but at the same time, when following those beliefs held by each respective denomination, the only logical societal end is one that is strictly theocratic. If you are one who strictly follows the tenents of your religion you have no choice, lest you sacrifice the repose of your soul, to work to bring about the glory of God on earth.
Most conservative Christians indeed believe life begins at conception, and therefore morally are obligated to vote against abortion in all its forms. Some of the most devout believe that, in spite of the tragedy that it indeed is, a woman who dies in pregnancy or childbirth is dying a glorified death. The sacrifice she makes is all but guaranteed to be one which will allow her to enter into the version of Heaven.
The same thing can be said about contraception - as an individual in a vacuum, it might be reasonable, but as a religious person the logic is more or less the same - we shouldn't generally be advocating for more contraception and it would be in the interests of the individual to be opposed to someone who is explicitly pro-contraception. The Catholic church does include a carve-out, in that couples should only be having as many children as they can reasonably support but even then, that couple should be 1) following the rhythm method, and 2) accept a child lovingly if they do end up pregnant (and carry it to term even if the mother is gravely in danger of complications or death). Note that the Church explicitly states that these actions should be occurring within heterosexual marriage, too. Sex is reserved exclusively for marriage and the act of intercourse is a representation of the unification of Christ with the Church itself. Clearly, there are many Catholics who have sex and children outside of marriage but that action is less-bad than abortion and the expectation is that the couple would marry and/or the mother would find a suitable spouse to raise the children in an appropriate environment.
The same thing can be said about gay marriage - the interpretation of the Bible and of Church doctrine is that marriage is between a man and a woman, so you should be opposed to those who are explicitly for same-sex marriage.
I think that one of the points of confusion is that there are logical inconsistencies in how the abortion argument is presented. There aren't. When you look at the weight assigned to mortal sins and the things that the Church is fundamentally opposed to, murder (as it's viewed by the Church) is pretty much the top dog. It's not that Catholics (and less so for more conservative Christians) want women to die, it's that they don't want to have a society where babies are (in their view) murdered. The goal is and always will be to eradicate those practices in order of importance. if the abortion book is closed, then you move on to the next sin and the next until secular society is in line with the teachings of the Church.
The logical inconsistencies presented by the failings of the Church to protect children from ordained sexual predators, or the eradication of indigenous peoples, or any of the abhorrent practices of the last 200 years are chalked up to the failings of man. The Church, as an institution, is not the collection of the flawed humans who participate in it and operate it. The Church is the collection of teachings and moral philosophy much like the Bible is taught to be the writings of man but the word of God. All of that is to say that a "good Catholic" is to lament the injustice, pray for the souls of the aggrieved, and to continue fighting the good fight. It's ironic and unfortunate but it's literally how the Catholic Church has operated for over 1300 years.
Where the non-fundamentalist Catholic church more or less drops off and other, more conservative and evangelical religions pick up the baton is the return to a faith-centered society. God should be included everywhere - did you know that "one nation under God" wasn't added to the pledge until 1954?** - in schools, in public spaces, everywhere. Whether it's the explicit indoctrination of indigenous peoples through centuries of colonialism and Christian missions, or the explicit fight to have God put back into places that the Constitution protects us from, or the religious protests in front of just about every secular event, or even in the less obvious but also very obvious many moral panics over the years, the end-game is and always will be to covert anyone and everyone to Christianity up until the day of the rapture.
Anything less means that both the failed evangelizers as well as the heathens will all burn in hell.
Christians have always been taught to have a specific and explicit respect for secular governments, overtly because it's taught that God works through the actions of elected officials even if those officials aren't Christians themselves, but reading between the lines - it's largely because government is the most efficient way to effectively spread the teachings of God and to. It also happens to be the easiest way to enforce a specific morality that would ensure passage into Heaven.
The irony is that, (not to joke), this is all in good faith. If I*** were to sit back and drink a beer while secular society takes over, compartmentalizes, and stores away my religion, I'm going to burn in Hell. It's required by most Church doctrine, for as many doctrines as there are, that I need to be fighting the good fight (my words) on all fronts. I need to be praying for those who are "lost" and helping to return each sheep to the flock so that we can all (all 7bn of us) be shepherded into the gates of Heaven.
At least, that's how it is for most people. If you are faithful, you are morally obligated to fight the same fight that the hyper-conservative end-times usherers are. Resting on your laurels cannot occur until after you pass through the pearly gates. Each one of these fights will not be resolved until the opposition is crushed, just like Jesus defeated the Devil and death itself. Even if and when victories are rolled back, it's expected that the fight will continue, on and on forever. The battle between the evangelical + fundamental faithful and non-faithful will literally never end. Just because Christians (or religious individuals) you know might shrug their shoulders, say 'eh', and not make a stink about any of this doesn't mean that on the whole the battles aren't being fought. They are, and the end goal is seen to span centuries, not years. If Christians can fight for 2000 years, what's a few more centuries to achieve that end.
You, me, and many others say that we are not to be beholden to the beliefs of the Church (Catholic or otherwise), but the truth remains that if as a true Christian, insomuch as the conservative Christian denominations dictate the terms of what it means to be a Christian, you aren't working and praying to bring God into every home you've failed and the eternal repose of your soul is at risk.
And that's the rub - to non-religious folks, your existence is a few dozen decades. To Christians, and for most religions, your existence is eternal and judged by your fleeting actions here on Earth. In the end, those who truly believe the doctrines of their respective faith will always choose to abide by those rules lest they spend eternity in hell. There's no negotiating. There's no middle ground. It's black and white and any pain caused along the way (see: the Crusades) is justified, venerated, and used to further the cause.
*There's a relatively small but continually growing contingent of fundamentalist Catholics who believe that Pope Francis is a false pope, that the Vatican is too liberal and secular, and that the hard-line exclusionary and explicitly conservative iterations of the Church should return to extinguish false believers and unify every Christian under the Catholic (which views itself as the one true faith - it's in the name!) Church. Most Catholics in this purview are fair-weather at best and certainly are guilty of moral sins that need penance starting yesterday.
**
https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2004/03/backgrounder.pdf#:~:text=In%20the%20early%201950s%2C%20the%20Knights%20of%20Columbus,United%20States%20and%20the%20officially%20atheistic%20Soviet%20Union.***Yes, I am still faithful, but certainly am not Catholic. I just happen to have attended Christian private school from P3-8, and then Catholic high school, and then married into a devoutly Catholic family. My MIL and SIL pray, daily, for the day I'll covert. They keep reassuring my wife (who is a very questioning Catholic at best) that I'll see the light and convert. I have a number of very fundamental oppositions to the Catholic church which will all bus ensure I won't consider myself Catholic.
And to be clear, I am pro-abortion. Pro-contraception. Pro-universal healthcare. Pro-separation of Church and state.
