Author Topic: Right to Repair  (Read 3298 times)

MilesTeg

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2021, 12:05:14 AM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdrQLiQLj5I
(similar radio, not mine) Sounds fine to me.

http://www.notpurfect.com/main/d7000.html
(search for word hours)

That's a really cool radio. Would love to have one just for the old school design and build. Sounds like crap though =P

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVtOss1U7_s
Great way to use any old car without classic tailpipe emissions... I know we can poke holes in this strategy too - safety, theft deterrence, rust control, etc. Its going to be as safe as a motorcycle at least. If a person lives in the salt belt - well, good luck to ya. cars will always be an expensive cost due to rust out and their inevitable decline.

Perhaps choose a northern place where cars aren't an integral part of daily life. Perhaps its time our society builds more bicycle infrastructure with gentle hills, traffic regulations that take pedestrian and bicycle needs more into account.
https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes/featured

EV conversions are also cool, but not scalable. Not to mention the only reason you can drop a Tesla EV pack into a VW bug like that is because.. Tesla built such an EV pack as part of a EV car effort.

LennStar

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2021, 01:41:13 AM »
It's not just computers and phones, though. We looked into getting a toaster. Apparently there is only one toaster on the market that's repairable (by Dualit). I don't know how many kettles are repairable. I guess many of these small appliances would technically be repairable if either you have an advanced degree in engineering and a professional welding licence, or if you were willing to spend several times what the original appliance cost.

I think it's a shame that someone with a GCSE in physics and access to YouTube has to bin their kettle and buy another one every few years, rather than being able to replace a part.

Our electric kettle died and I took it apart. The very low quality bi-metallic switch melted itself over 18 months times. If there had been a replacement switch, the rest of the kettle would have undoubtedly lasted many more years.
Oh, I thought when you wrote kettle you mean kettle and was wondering how the hell a lump of metal gets broken. But you mean a water heater! Where you plug it into a wall socket.

If it would just be a dump kettle, they last decades. Of course those do not make a lot of sense on an electric stove if you just want to heat a cup of tea water.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2021, 06:29:11 AM »
It's not just computers and phones, though. We looked into getting a toaster. Apparently there is only one toaster on the market that's repairable (by Dualit). I don't know how many kettles are repairable. I guess many of these small appliances would technically be repairable if either you have an advanced degree in engineering and a professional welding licence, or if you were willing to spend several times what the original appliance cost.

I think it's a shame that someone with a GCSE in physics and access to YouTube has to bin their kettle and buy another one every few years, rather than being able to replace a part.

Our electric kettle died and I took it apart. The very low quality bi-metallic switch melted itself over 18 months times. If there had been a replacement switch, the rest of the kettle would have undoubtedly lasted many more years.
Oh, I thought when you wrote kettle you mean kettle and was wondering how the hell a lump of metal gets broken. But you mean a water heater! Where you plug it into a wall socket.

If it would just be a dump kettle, they last decades. Of course those do not make a lot of sense on an electric stove if you just want to heat a cup of tea water.

Yes, a normal kettle that every British household has at least one of! You plug it into the wall, flip the switch and it turns itself off when the water has boiled. Used multiple times every single day, so a lifespan of two years is over 1000 uses.

Just Joe

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2021, 07:44:25 AM »
That is the kind of kettle I meant. Flip it with water, plug it in, and a few minutes later hot water is ready for coffee or tea.

Just Joe

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2021, 07:53:39 AM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdrQLiQLj5I
(similar radio, not mine) Sounds fine to me.

http://www.notpurfect.com/main/d7000.html
(search for word hours)

That's a really cool radio. Would love to have one just for the old school design and build. Sounds like crap though =P

Sounds great in the garage or on our porch. Lots of ambient noise that would obscure audio perfection. ;)

If I need perfection I'll buy some miniature thing the size of a stick of gum that holds 9M songs and use headphones. That lasts two years.

Then again, every time I put on headphones someone magically comes looking for me. "Why did you not answer?" "Dad, I need help with my homework..." Or the phone rings... I swear it is a bad magical spell put on me about 30 years ago.

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2021, 10:59:03 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4

BigClive did a video on the Dubai LED bulbs by Philips.  LED bulbs are generally overvolted by manufacturers to shorten their life and reduce their cost.  Dubai made Philips produce an actual long-life bulb, engineered optimally, and it is substantially different from what is typically sold.
Ok, so I'm going to drag this a bit off-topic. Sorry in advance...

So, I'm an electrical engineer by education, and being inquisitive, I've taken apart a whole bunch of different LED bulbs to see how the circuit is designed.  What I found is that, depending on the brand, it's trivial to downrate LED bulbs.  Pop off the translucent lens (just pry it off), snip off one of two resistors*, put it back together, and _voila_, you've got a bulb that is dimmer, but will also last basically forever.

* For the curious/adventurous, I've found this design most commonly on Sylvania bulbs.  Just remove one of the two small rectangles marked in the attached image, with a pair of flush cutters or basically any other tool that works.

BigClive also covered that. Love his videos. Even though I don't understand them.

I've considered doing this modification, but I'd need to find something rated about double what I want (so if I'm looking for a 100 watt bulb, I need to find a 200 watt bulb). Since it's not a straight 50% drop (if memory serves there's two resistors that tend to be different values, so you can either modify it to still provide a bit over 50% power or a bit under 50% power), a 100 watt bulb may be suitable for a 60 watt. I may actually try this for some outdoor bulbs that I leave on all night (they last months).

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2021, 01:09:13 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4

BigClive did a video on the Dubai LED bulbs by Philips.  LED bulbs are generally overvolted by manufacturers to shorten their life and reduce their cost.  Dubai made Philips produce an actual long-life bulb, engineered optimally, and it is substantially different from what is typically sold.
Ok, so I'm going to drag this a bit off-topic. Sorry in advance...

So, I'm an electrical engineer by education, and being inquisitive, I've taken apart a whole bunch of different LED bulbs to see how the circuit is designed.  What I found is that, depending on the brand, it's trivial to downrate LED bulbs.  Pop off the translucent lens (just pry it off), snip off one of two resistors*, put it back together, and _voila_, you've got a bulb that is dimmer, but will also last basically forever.

* For the curious/adventurous, I've found this design most commonly on Sylvania bulbs.  Just remove one of the two small rectangles marked in the attached image, with a pair of flush cutters or basically any other tool that works.

BigClive also covered that. Love his videos. Even though I don't understand them.

I've considered doing this modification, but I'd need to find something rated about double what I want (so if I'm looking for a 100 watt bulb, I need to find a 200 watt bulb). Since it's not a straight 50% drop (if memory serves there's two resistors that tend to be different values, so you can either modify it to still provide a bit over 50% power or a bit under 50% power), a 100 watt bulb may be suitable for a 60 watt. I may actually try this for some outdoor bulbs that I leave on all night (they last months).
In all the bulbs I've seen, the two resistors are the same value.  I haven't disassembled nearly the range of bulbs BigClive has, though.

I don't know how much the LEDs are overdriven, but there's nothing that says you couldn't split the difference between 50% and 100%.  All it takes is a little math.  The current draw is proportional to (1/R1 + 1/R2), where R1 and R2 are the resistances of the two...resistors.  If you want 75% of the current, simply replace one of the resistors with one of double the resistance, and you're good to go.  E.g. if both resistors are 100 Ohms, replace one of the 100 Ohm resistors with a 200 Ohm resistor.  Of course, these are usually mounted on an aluminum substrate, so it's difficult to get enough heat into the part to solder the new resistor.  That's why I resort to brute-force destruction of one of the resistors.  Our eyes perceive light logarithmically anyway, so a 50% drop in light feels like it's a lot less than a 50% drop.

GuitarStv

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2021, 01:16:17 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4

BigClive did a video on the Dubai LED bulbs by Philips.  LED bulbs are generally overvolted by manufacturers to shorten their life and reduce their cost.  Dubai made Philips produce an actual long-life bulb, engineered optimally, and it is substantially different from what is typically sold.
Ok, so I'm going to drag this a bit off-topic. Sorry in advance...

So, I'm an electrical engineer by education, and being inquisitive, I've taken apart a whole bunch of different LED bulbs to see how the circuit is designed.  What I found is that, depending on the brand, it's trivial to downrate LED bulbs.  Pop off the translucent lens (just pry it off), snip off one of two resistors*, put it back together, and _voila_, you've got a bulb that is dimmer, but will also last basically forever.

* For the curious/adventurous, I've found this design most commonly on Sylvania bulbs.  Just remove one of the two small rectangles marked in the attached image, with a pair of flush cutters or basically any other tool that works.

BigClive also covered that. Love his videos. Even though I don't understand them.

I've considered doing this modification, but I'd need to find something rated about double what I want (so if I'm looking for a 100 watt bulb, I need to find a 200 watt bulb). Since it's not a straight 50% drop (if memory serves there's two resistors that tend to be different values, so you can either modify it to still provide a bit over 50% power or a bit under 50% power), a 100 watt bulb may be suitable for a 60 watt. I may actually try this for some outdoor bulbs that I leave on all night (they last months).
In all the bulbs I've seen, the two resistors are the same value.  I haven't disassembled nearly the range of bulbs BigClive has, though.

I don't know how much the LEDs are overdriven, but there's nothing that says you couldn't split the difference between 50% and 100%.  All it takes is a little math.  The current draw is proportional to (1/R1 + 1/R2), where R1 and R2 are the resistances of the two...resistors.  If you want 75% of the current, simply replace one of the resistors with one of double the resistance, and you're good to go.  E.g. if both resistors are 100 Ohms, replace one of the 100 Ohm resistors with a 200 Ohm resistor.  Of course, these are usually mounted on an aluminum substrate, so it's difficult to get enough heat into the part to solder the new resistor.  That's why I resort to brute-force destruction of one of the resistors.  Our eyes perceive light logarithmically anyway, so a 50% drop in light feels like it's a lot less than a 50% drop.

How are you removing/soldering the SMD resistors?  I've never been able to do this cleanly.

techwiz

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2021, 01:24:22 PM »

How are you removing/soldering the SMD resistors?  I've never been able to do this cleanly.
Check out this video for some tips.

https://youtu.be/8JM4oCpWnjU


NumberJohnny5

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2021, 01:28:04 PM »
In all the bulbs I've seen, the two resistors are the same value.  I haven't disassembled nearly the range of bulbs BigClive has, though.

I don't know how much the LEDs are overdriven, but there's nothing that says you couldn't split the difference between 50% and 100%.  All it takes is a little math.  The current draw is proportional to (1/R1 + 1/R2), where R1 and R2 are the resistances of the two...resistors.  If you want 75% of the current, simply replace one of the resistors with one of double the resistance, and you're good to go.  E.g. if both resistors are 100 Ohms, replace one of the 100 Ohm resistors with a 200 Ohm resistor.  Of course, these are usually mounted on an aluminum substrate, so it's difficult to get enough heat into the part to solder the new resistor.  That's why I resort to brute-force destruction of one of the resistors.  Our eyes perceive light logarithmically anyway, so a 50% drop in light feels like it's a lot less than a 50% drop.

I haven't taken one apart to actually do this modification...so maybe they are all (mostly?) the same value. Just going off memory by what I saw in one of his videos. He did exactly what you said, I just remember (perhaps wrongly) that he said they were different values, so you could cut either X or Y and it would be reduced by the corresponding amount. Anyway, I'm about out of cheap bulbs, and they're the 60 or 70 watt version anyway, so I'll need to find a source of cheap 100+ watt bulbs to try this out on. Bonus, I can paint the globe while it's off and not worry about taping up the base (I use cheap yellow spray paint to turn them into yellow bulbs that don't attract mosquitos...it really does make a difference). I will need to seal them back up properly as they're used outside, shouldn't be too hard.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2021, 01:59:47 PM »
<snip to prevent massive quote chain>

How are you removing/soldering the SMD resistors?  I've never been able to do this cleanly.
On the light bulbs, I don't bother, simply because I'd have to either crank up my soldering iron really hot, or pull the whole board out of the bulb so I can use the heat gun on it.    The aluminum dissipates the heat really quickly.  Since my goal is to merely get rid of one of the resistors, I snip it off (or, more accurately, crunch and mangle it) with a pair of flush cutters or pliers or whatever else is close at hand.

<snip>
I haven't taken one apart to actually do this modification...so maybe they are all (mostly?) the same value. Just going off memory by what I saw in one of his videos. He did exactly what you said, I just remember (perhaps wrongly) that he said they were different values, so you could cut either X or Y and it would be reduced by the corresponding amount. Anyway, I'm about out of cheap bulbs, and they're the 60 or 70 watt version anyway, so I'll need to find a source of cheap 100+ watt bulbs to try this out on. Bonus, I can paint the globe while it's off and not worry about taping up the base (I use cheap yellow spray paint to turn them into yellow bulbs that don't attract mosquitos...it really does make a difference). I will need to seal them back up properly as they're used outside, shouldn't be too hard.
I would not be surprised if the bulbs he sees in the UK are different to US bulbs.  FWIW, I've also seen a given manufacturer switch designs, so my past success is no guarantee of your future returns :)  I've seen it most consistently with Sylvania branded bulbs.

The lenses are a snap fit into the base, and the manufacturer uses what looks like silicone sealant to hold them more securely closed, so they take a bit of prying to come open.

Just Joe

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2021, 11:41:22 AM »
Doesn't the free market provide alternatives to brands who deny people the right to repair?

I wouldn't have an Apple product because of that situation. They sell nice products to be sure.

I run Android while my wife and kids run Apple. When I need a phone next time I'm looking really close at KDE (Linux) phones. I'd like to keep Apple and Google out of my phone. My needs are modest - a good camera, good sound, preferably my favorite Linux browser, email.

I tend to own older things that are well documented so I can DIY stuff. Plus older = cheaper to acquire, cheaper to own (DIY), cheaper to buy parts for.

The unhappy John Deere customers should be shopping every other brand equipment next time they replace anything. There are many brands to choose from.

I get how people are attracted the popular brands but sometimes popular =/= best option in the TCO equation IMHO.

GuitarStv

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2021, 03:58:36 PM »
Doesn't the free market provide alternatives to brands who deny people the right to repair?

I wouldn't have an Apple product because of that situation. They sell nice products to be sure.

I run Android while my wife and kids run Apple. When I need a phone next time I'm looking really close at KDE (Linux) phones. I'd like to keep Apple and Google out of my phone. My needs are modest - a good camera, good sound, preferably my favorite Linux browser, email.

I tend to own older things that are well documented so I can DIY stuff. Plus older = cheaper to acquire, cheaper to own (DIY), cheaper to buy parts for.

The unhappy John Deere customers should be shopping every other brand equipment next time they replace anything. There are many brands to choose from.

I get how people are attracted the popular brands but sometimes popular =/= best option in the TCO equation IMHO.

Eh.  Maybe?

Throwing away electronics has become so normalized that I don't think people even consider the idea of repairing stuff most of the time.  That and certain companies (like Apple) seriously benefit from the cultlike following they've engendered in their fan base - where they want to buy the latest crap anyway, so just happily fall in step with the upgrade cycle their overlords require.

John Deere is an interesting one though.  I thought they sold a lot of farm equipment . . . and I've never known a farmer who would tolerate a tractor that he couldn't tinker with when problems arise.

LennStar

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2021, 09:25:53 AM »
Doesn't the free market provide alternatives to brands who deny people the right to repair?
Putting aside the huge efforts of companies like Apple to prevent that (and to prevent you repairing their stuff, which is a property right violation)...
it is only an alternative if you A) can afford that and B) if it is comparativly easy to get your hands on it. But since we have an Oligopol of very few companies, that is not and will not happen (economics of scale).


EricEng

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #64 on: May 24, 2021, 10:07:02 AM »
Doesn't the free market provide alternatives to brands who deny people the right to repair?
Not when they have a monopoly on the market, IE Samsung and Apple with smartphones and tablets.

It also assumes perfect knowledge in consumers, which we definitely don't have in this case (largely by design of said companies).  They have successfully trained people to think their electronics are never cost effective to repair, which reduces market for spare parts and ups the cost further. If independent shops were allowed to repair with access to supply chains to buy OEM parts, these things would be fixable for cheap.  Also, wiring/interconnection drawings would go a long way to allowing people to troubleshoot and repair these items.

PDXTabs

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #65 on: May 24, 2021, 11:13:13 AM »
Doesn't the free market provide alternatives to brands who deny people the right to repair?
Not when they have a monopoly on the market, IE Samsung and Apple with smartphones and tablets.

And Qualcomm. Be big enough to deal with Qualcomm or fail.

Just Joe

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #66 on: May 24, 2021, 12:35:02 PM »
Doesn't the free market provide alternatives to brands who deny people the right to repair?
Not when they have a monopoly on the market, IE Samsung and Apple with smartphones and tablets.

It also assumes perfect knowledge in consumers, which we definitely don't have in this case (largely by design of said companies).  They have successfully trained people to think their electronics are never cost effective to repair, which reduces market for spare parts and ups the cost further. If independent shops were allowed to repair with access to supply chains to buy OEM parts, these things would be fixable for cheap.  Also, wiring/interconnection drawings would go a long way to allowing people to troubleshoot and repair these items.

You are correct. People have been well-trained. Contract to contract. Payments. Replace vs repair. Top two brands or whoever is advertising the most the week they needed or wanted a new phone.

There are many brands besides Samsung and Apple. I carry an Asus. On purpose. And it has been repaired locally and affordably when I broke the screen. Because i did not want to see an otherwise good phone go into the garbage.

Nokia, Blackberry and Motorola still sells phones. What is difficult is getting lose of the Android or Apple OS. In that category is the PinePhone (BETA) and few others.

https://kde.org/announcements/plasma-mobile/pinephone-plasma-mobile-edition/

chemistk

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2021, 02:39:03 PM »
Doesn't the free market provide alternatives to brands who deny people the right to repair?
Not when they have a monopoly on the market, IE Samsung and Apple with smartphones and tablets.

It also assumes perfect knowledge in consumers, which we definitely don't have in this case (largely by design of said companies).  They have successfully trained people to think their electronics are never cost effective to repair, which reduces market for spare parts and ups the cost further. If independent shops were allowed to repair with access to supply chains to buy OEM parts, these things would be fixable for cheap.  Also, wiring/interconnection drawings would go a long way to allowing people to troubleshoot and repair these items.

You are correct. People have been well-trained. Contract to contract. Payments. Replace vs repair. Top two brands or whoever is advertising the most the week they needed or wanted a new phone.

There are many brands besides Samsung and Apple. I carry an Asus. On purpose. And it has been repaired locally and affordably when I broke the screen. Because i did not want to see an otherwise good phone go into the garbage.

Nokia, Blackberry and Motorola still sells phones. What is difficult is getting lose of the Android or Apple OS. In that category is the PinePhone (BETA) and few others.

https://kde.org/announcements/plasma-mobile/pinephone-plasma-mobile-edition/

That emphasized line right there is why, without significant, impactful international antitrust action against these companies, you're not going to see anything other than a fast progression to just a few players.

Just this year, LG dropped its mobile phone business. I recall when LG phones were highly competitive. How long before some of the other players decide to drop theirs? FWIW I'm on my 3rd Motorola, and my wife has a Pixel - I do agree with you that the smaller players* need to stay in business.

But the OS? I have to have access to email and some apps on mobile for work, and my choices are 1) carry a work device, 2) install the Android equivalent of AirWatch on my personal device, or 3) carry a personal device that is capable of running the mobile version of MS Authenticator to log into apps that connect to my equipment as needed.

1 and 2 are nonstarters, 3 is what I do because I only access what I need and am not touching CC information from my personal device.

So you'd have to figure out an enterprise-scalable way to integrate iOS and Android into existing IS infrastructure that is supportable by the offshored Tier 1 dev support.

But even then, does it matter? Gen Z is hyper-connected. iOS and Android are all they know. It's what entire school districts run off of, not to even mention their favorite apps.

I hate to sound like a Negative Nick, but I'd argue that alternative device manufacturers and alternative OS  architecture is dead in the water, if not for the lack of current adoption, then for the future generations.



Although who knows, we might see a tech revolution from Gen Z when they decide they are done with the corporate monopolies that have been erected to date.

ETA - *In many other countries, the "small guys" here are the top players, so it might just be that they exit the US market rather than completely folding.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 05:54:49 AM by chemistk »

PDXTabs

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #68 on: May 24, 2021, 03:59:35 PM »
Doesn't the free market provide alternatives to brands who deny people the right to repair?
Not when they have a monopoly on the market, IE Samsung and Apple with smartphones and tablets.

It also assumes perfect knowledge in consumers, which we definitely don't have in this case (largely by design of said companies).  They have successfully trained people to think their electronics are never cost effective to repair, which reduces market for spare parts and ups the cost further. If independent shops were allowed to repair with access to supply chains to buy OEM parts, these things would be fixable for cheap.  Also, wiring/interconnection drawings would go a long way to allowing people to troubleshoot and repair these items.

You are correct. People have been well-trained. Contract to contract. Payments. Replace vs repair. Top two brands or whoever is advertising the most the week they needed or wanted a new phone.

There are many brands besides Samsung and Apple. I carry an Asus. On purpose. And it has been repaired locally and affordably when I broke the screen. Because i did not want to see an otherwise good phone go into the garbage.

Nokia, Blackberry and Motorola still sells phones. What is difficult is getting lose of the Android or Apple OS. In that category is the PinePhone (BETA) and few others.

https://kde.org/announcements/plasma-mobile/pinephone-plasma-mobile-edition/

That emphasized line right there is why, without significant, impactful international antitrust action against these companies, you're not going to see anything other than a fast progression to just a few players.

I'm all for bringing an anit-trust case against Google, but they sell very few handsets, and they give Android (and Chromium) away for free. Any handset OEM is welcome to fork Android or just use LineageOS which doesn't come with any of the Google apps. So while I agree that Google is a monopoly, I'm not sure that the handset market is where their monopoly is.

LennStar

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2021, 02:08:07 PM »
Google is very good in circumnavigating anti-trust rules.
"Giving away" Android etc. is one of those things. Literally it was because their legal staff said if google did not do that, at least the EU would have acted and likely forced them to split it off.
(Also keep in mind that the given-away Android still has google stuff in it and that Android is the "best" choice if you want to use any of the many google services - which also point you to Android.)

PDXTabs

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Re: Right to Repair
« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2021, 07:22:42 PM »
My Right to Repair rant for today.

The Google Pixel 3 is no longer going to get support from Google after October 2021. Right now you can get one for $160 and it will be supported by LineageOS for the foreseeable future. However, you can't install LineageOS on those $160 Google Pixel 3 devices because the bootloader is locked. By Google? Not exactly, the Pixel 3 devices purchased directly from Google had unlockable bootloaders. But the ones purchased through Verizon had the bootloaders locked by Verizon that cannot be unlocked by the end user.

I don't know if it is technically feasible for Google to safely allow the unlocking of those bootloaders, but I'd love to see a law that never let this happen again.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 07:40:17 PM by PDXTabs »