Response to mods

[human]

Human,

You seem to be bent on derailing the missionary thread. I get that you are trying to prove your point but it is the wrong venue. If you feel so strongly about the topic feel free to start your own "off topic" thread - keeping in mind the forum rules.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/looking-for-missionary-ideas-christian-family-thinking-about-the-big-picture/

I stopped posting after the first mod comment. I then posted when they put words in my mouth. I'm not sure I've doing anything wrong if they keep talking to me. I haven't derailed anything if they feel they must address their perception of my "issue" in the thread. They were free to start another topic as well and I could have engagedthem there, but as long as they mis-characterize what I've said I should be able to correct them.

[arebelspy]

I was not moderating that thread, but reading through it, the directive seems pretty clear: do not post further in that thread off topic your opinions on whether or not they should be missionarying.  If you want to discuss your thoughts on that topic, start a new thread.

You decided to continue to post, anyways (regardless of reason--others mentioning your posts being your excuse in this case).  You got a warning for that, and seemed to take enough umbrage to start this thread.  That's fine.

I don't see the issue though, seems pretty clear, to me.

If you don't like the other people's comments on your thoughts, feel free to PM them, or, again, address it in your own new thread.

Let me be clear: you do not have an unequivocal right to post in someone else's thread.

If a moderator asks you to stop, please stop.  If you have an issue with that, start a thread about it.  Don't * in their thread.

Cheers!

[arebelspy]

FWIW, speaking as a poster, not a mod, I pretty much agree with your opinion.  That doesn't mean I need to go posting it in their thread saying so (especially if I post once, no need to keep going on and on about it).

My solution?  Avoid the thread.  It's not for me.

[Silverado]

All mods are not created equal. Some have their own agenda from my point of view and use their moderator power in an attempt to push it. ( no one who has posted in this thread though). Good tips from ARS in just moving on to a new thread to lessen the discontent from all sides at times. Especially if you have caught the eye of certain people.

[human]

Damn phone.

I'll chill I guess. Just don't like being told I have displayed some sort of faulty logic by others who are clearly unable to see their own.

Just watching southpaw now. I had high hopes for jake in this but I guess mickey rourke set the bar high forn concussed befuddled fighters.

[arebelspy]

All mods are not created equal. Some have their own agenda from my point of view and use their moderator power in an attempt to push it. ( no one who has posted in this thread though).

Oh, I certainly have my own biases and point of view, as we all do.  I try not to let it influence my moderating, but I'm sure it does at times.

I don't think any of the other mods let their biases influence, other than being biased about certain things which may catch their attention more, to moderate.  If those things are already against the rules, it's not an issue, it just does mean those things may be moderated more, because they happen to be noticed by that mod more.

That's why users reporting posts help us moderate, we may not notice as many things as the giant user base can.

Damn phone.

I'll chill I guess. Just don't like being told I have displayed some sort of faulty logic by others who are clearly unable to see their own.

I don't think your logic was faulty (your latest post was clear to me--the OP was unsure about their calling, asked for opinions, and you told them maybe not to do it).  I just don't think that was the place for it (after having given your opinion, a few times, and then told that was enough).

Just watching southpaw now. I had high hopes for jake in this but I guess mickey rourke set the bar high forn concussed befuddled fighters.

I lol'd, and I have no idea what that means.

[human]

You need to watch "the wrestler", pretty good movie. Totally unrealted to the discussion of missionaries.

[wenchsenior]

I sympathize with you, human. I didn't feel it was my place to comment.

I wanted to not look LOL, but it was like a trainwreck and I couldn't stop checking it, so I'm just as glad it is locked.

To be honest, reading it made my skin crawl. Maybe I'm a masochist.

[justajane]

FWIW, I see both sides to this. I was an MK (missionary kid) but have strayed away from the idea, especially any American going abroad and proselytizing. So I sympathize with your stance. But you were needlessly antagonistic, in large part because I'm not sure if you understand that the OP was relatively benign, considering the type of in-your-face missionary work I've been exposed to over the years.

Plus, I have huge respect for anyone who would pay for their own missionary work, after having spent my life in a church in which someone always has their hand out wanting others to fund their dream to "minister" abroad. Usually there's a strong mixture of adventure and selfish motivations couched in theology.

But philosophically, your point is taken. I am opposed to open proselytizing. Don't hand out a bible with one hand and a bowl of rice with the other. It doesn't work anyway. 

[hoping2retire35]

I was apart of that thread, it was pretty much my fault for bringing human back into it, btw. I was reading through what everyone was writing and saw where it was going and did a quote+post. I typically look for the date when quoting to be sure it is not too old, I think human's was the day before so I thought "good to go." I should have kept reading and realized what happend, my apologies human.

on another note, the political threads are pretty fair game to criticize someone's ideas or if someone is posting a case study you can give a friendly "You spend that much on WHAT!?" But if they are just writing in the journal or trying to solve a more delicate situation I try to give a more gentle answer. If it seems like there is tension or I went somewhere I wasn't supposed to, I leave the thread alone.

As to the ethics of missionary work, ethical missionary work, being religious in general; I leave that to another thread.

bold edit

[human]

Not sure if I can post this here or not but I was biting my tongue quite a bit. While some may find that kind of work benign I see it as insidious. Go live among them, become their friends, listen to their problems, help them and learn all about them. Then tell them "The Truth" with capital Ts no less. Exaggerating a bit but I see no difference in styles of missionary work.

The op in that thread had the complete opposite upbringing than I did. I was raised catholic. Don't worry nothing happened, in fact the confirmation priest was quite open minded. In the end the conservative stance of the church and my realization that faith accomplishes nothing - people accomplish things lead me to atheism.

[PKFFW]

on another note, the political threads are pretty fair game to criticize someone's ideas

Out of curiosity why is it "fair game" to criticize someone's political ideas but not their religious ideas?

"I think Stalinism is the only Truth and must go out and convince others of this for their own good" is fair game to criticize but swap Stalinism to Christianity and you must go softly softly?

[Papa Mustache]

FWIW, I see both sides to this. I was an MK (missionary kid) but have strayed away from the idea, especially any American going abroad and proselytizing. So I sympathize with your stance. But you were needlessly antagonistic, in large part because I'm not sure if you understand that the OP was relatively benign, considering the type of in-your-face missionary work I've been exposed to over the years.

Plus, I have huge respect for anyone who would pay for their own missionary work, after having spent my life in a church in which someone always has their hand out wanting others to fund their dream to "minister" abroad. Usually there's a strong mixture of adventure and selfish motivations couched in theology.

But philosophically, your point is taken. I am opposed to open proselytizing. Don't hand out a bible with one hand and a bowl of rice with the other. It doesn't work anyway.

I found it pretty easy to live in an another country and say "they are doing it wrong here" and try to at least as a mental exercise - fix the place to make it more like the USA. The reasons a culture/society functions the ways that it does is a very complicated thing.

Want to change it for the better? Teach people to learn (read, math, science). Teach them the trades. Work with them and show them kindness and all the basic human values that we should all know regardless of our religious ideals. Leave out politics and religion. Those are messy topics even here in the USA, why spread the misery? ;)

[ender]

Human,

You seem to be bent on derailing the missionary thread. I get that you are trying to prove your point but it is the wrong venue. If you feel so strongly about the topic feel free to start your own "off topic" thread - keeping in mind the forum rules.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/looking-for-missionary-ideas-christian-family-thinking-about-the-big-picture/

I stopped posting after the first mod comment. I then posted when they put words in my mouth. I'm not sure I've doing anything wrong if they keep talking to me. I haven't derailed anything if they feel they must address their perception of my "issue" in the thread. They were free to start another topic as well and I could have engagedthem there, but as long as they mis-characterize what I've said I should be able to correct them.

Out of curiosity why is it "fair game" to criticize someone's political ideas but not their religious ideas?

Well, for one thing, most of those threads are started with the nearly explicit purpose to argue about political ideas themselves and/or shame a candidate. A fairly significant difference between the thread that unfortunately got locked.

[Spork]

on another note, the political threads are pretty fair game to criticize someone's ideas

Out of curiosity why is it "fair game" to criticize someone's political ideas but not their religious ideas?

"I think Stalinism is the only Truth and must go out and convince others of this for their own good" is fair game to criticize but swap Stalinism to Christianity and you must go softly softly?

I didn't read the thread in question... but I skimmed over Human's first couple of posts.  They didn't bother me terribly, but I am non-christian, so it may be personal bias.

But... to the bolded part: This is sort of my own personal pet peeve that really bothers me.  Some threads sort of "ask" for argument/discussion/difference of opinion.  Those threads are fair game.  For example: "<insert political figure here> is a moron!"

But some threads really don't -- and it just drives me fucking insane when a real thread about some real topic gets railroaded off into nowhere.  For example: If someone is needing help navigating the in's and out's of ACA, the thread invariably devolves into how ACA is evil/good.  Dammit, start a thread on how ACA is evil/good!  (That's just an example, because it is common, please generalize this to apply to non-ACA topics as well).

[LeRainDrop]

on another note, the political threads are pretty fair game to criticize someone's ideas

Out of curiosity why is it "fair game" to criticize someone's political ideas but not their religious ideas?

"I think Stalinism is the only Truth and must go out and convince others of this for their own good" is fair game to criticize but swap Stalinism to Christianity and you must go softly softly?

I didn't read the thread in question... but I skimmed over Human's first couple of posts.  They didn't bother me terribly, but I am non-christian, so it may be personal bias.

In my opinion, human's first couple posts were fairly innocuous and respectful enough.  Then he essentially told the OP the question should not have been asked on this forum, i.e., the commenter was unwelcome here, and it kind of devolved from there.

But... to the bolded part: This is sort of my own personal pet peeve that really bothers me.  Some threads sort of "ask" for argument/discussion/difference of opinion.  Those threads are fair game.  For example: "<insert political figure here> is a moron!"

But some threads really don't -- and it just drives me fucking insane when a real thread about some real topic gets railroaded off into nowhere.  For example: If someone is needing help navigating the in's and out's of ACA, the thread invariably devolves into how ACA is evil/good.  Dammit, start a thread on how ACA is evil/good!  (That's just an example, because it is common, please generalize this to apply to non-ACA topics as well).

I share your view.  That's why the missionary thread became so frustrating.  The OP was a kind person saying this is what I want to do and does anyone have some suggestions on how to do it.  The thread disintegrated into telling OP that their personal values were crap and wrong, etc.  That's not a constructive response.  If people don't have an interest in helping the OP achieve their goal, then just skip that thread and move on to the next.  No need to tear the OP down for their personal beliefs.

[ender]

I share your view.  That's why the missionary thread became so frustrating.  The OP was a kind person saying this is what I want to do and does anyone have some suggestions on how to do it.  The thread disintegrated into telling OP that their personal values were crap and wrong, etc.  That's not a constructive response.  If people don't have an interest in helping the OP achieve their goal, then just skip that thread and move on to the next.  No need to tear the OP down for their personal beliefs.

I agree with this most of the time. But I think that a fairly common pattern here is:

• OP makes post "OMG person X is so horrible, can't even handle it!
• OP wants an echo chamber of how horrible X is, but people disagree with that interpretation
• People point out to the OP that their perspective might not be correct

I'm not sure how to really reconcile that. In some ways, we need a "do you want consolation or counsel" button on each post. If people want to complain and have others reinforce their beliefs, I guess I'm fine with that, but it would be nice to have a "I don't care what you think if you disagree" type of button.

Honestly, if it became a forum rule that derailing discussion away from the obvious intent of the OP was not allowed, I would be wholly in support. The specific example here is a perfect example of a few people shutting down an otherwise interesting, insightful, and meaningful thread.

[hoping2retire35]

on another note, the political threads are pretty fair game to criticize someone's ideas

Out of curiosity why is it "fair game" to criticize someone's political ideas but not their religious ideas?

"I think Stalinism is the only Truth and must go out and convince others of this for their own good" is fair game to criticize but swap Stalinism to Christianity and you must go softly softly?

I didn't read the thread in question... but I skimmed over Human's first couple of posts.  They didn't bother me terribly, but I am non-christian, so it may be personal bias.

In my opinion, human's first couple posts were fairly innocuous and respectful enough.  Then he essentially told the OP the question should not have been asked on this forum, i.e., the commenter was unwelcome here, and it kind of devolved from there.

But... to the bolded part: This is sort of my own personal pet peeve that really bothers me.  Some threads sort of "ask" for argument/discussion/difference of opinion.  Those threads are fair game.  For example: "<insert political figure here> is a moron!"

But some threads really don't -- and it just drives me fucking insane when a real thread about some real topic gets railroaded off into nowhere.  For example: If someone is needing help navigating the in's and out's of ACA, the thread invariably devolves into how ACA is evil/good.  Dammit, start a thread on how ACA is evil/good!  (That's just an example, because it is common, please generalize this to apply to non-ACA topics as well).

I share your view.  That's why the missionary thread became so frustrating.  The OP was a kind person saying this is what I want to do and does anyone have some suggestions on how to do it.  The thread disintegrated into telling OP that their personal values were crap and wrong, etc.  That's not a constructive response.  If people don't have an interest in helping the OP achieve their goal, then just skip that thread and move on to the next.  No need to tear the OP down for their personal beliefs.

Yep

[human]

Correction, I said if you want positive comments on missionary work when you ask for everyone's thoughts on the subject you should post on a forum where it would be widely accepted. That is to say a forum devoted to missionary work. You ask a bunch of non christians what they think of it they will tell you to do something else which is what I did.

Ender I take your point, tons of arguing on the internet meme could have applied but confrontation can be fun.

P.S forrest whittaker was the only saving grace to southpaw. I wanted the jake gyllenthal of broke back mountain (best love story of our time) but it wasn't meant to be.

[ender]

Correction, I said if you want positive comments on missionary work when you ask for everyone's thoughts on the subject you should post on a forum where it would be widely accepted. That is to say a forum devoted to missionary work. You ask a bunch of non christians what they think of it they will tell you to do something else which is what I did.

This is nonsense.

There are a lot of us Christians here. It's because of people like you there is not as much discussion on this subject. I suspect the majority of people answering in that thread were Christians. I would love to have discussions here about the implications of FIRE, MMM lifestyles, and evangelical Christianity. There is a lot of value I could gain from them, but I'm not going to deal with people like yourself who cannot STAND someone on the internet being wrong and must. at all costs. solve. their. wrongness!

Now, I do realize that in 2016, where it's become totally ok to bash on anyone with a hint of religious implication behind anything they say anywhere online. This has become increasingly popular online and you clearly believe the same. So I don't even bother starting those discussions. But don't presume for a second this forum is 99% atheists. I suspect the religious demographic here is a lot different than you assume.

Ender I take your point, tons of arguing on the internet meme could have applied but confrontation can be fun.

Why don't you take some of your own advice and go find a forum where confrontation like you are seeking is "widely accepted." Or is this too ironic for you to realize?

If you want a forum to troll people for "fun" (your words) go to reddit. Not here.

[LadyStache in Baja]

I love this thread!  This sums up these forums so nicely.  People thinking critically about what it means to have a constructive conversation and the problems that can arise even when trying hard to be thoughtful and nice. 

This community is really stellar in terms of doling out facepunches, being supportive, and engaging in fun confrontation, and knowing when to do what. 

There are definitely plenty of places on these forums for fun confrontation, it's about knowing where it's appropriate. 

I certainly hope Christians feel able to speak up about their personal beliefs.  I absolutely love meeting brilliant, well-educated, logical people with different personal beliefs and experiences than my own.  It's what makes us grow.

And finally, thanks to the mods for keeping these forums a safe space for all kinds of conversation.

[Silverado]

Correction, I said if you want positive comments on missionary work when you ask for everyone's thoughts on the subject you should post on a forum where it would be widely accepted. That is to say a forum devoted to missionary work. You ask a bunch of non christians what they think of it they will tell you to do something else which is what I did.

This is nonsense.

There are a lot of us Christians here. It's because of people like you there is not as much discussion on this subject. I suspect the majority of people answering in that thread were Christians. I would love to have discussions here about the implications of FIRE, MMM lifestyles, and evangelical Christianity. There is a lot of value I could gain from them, but I'm not going to deal with people like yourself who cannot STAND someone on the internet being wrong and must. at all costs. solve. their. wrongness!

Now, I do realize that in 2016, where it's become totally ok to bash on anyone with a hint of religious implication behind anything they say anywhere online. This has become increasingly popular online and you clearly believe the same. So I don't even bother starting those discussions. But don't presume for a second this forum is 99% atheists. I suspect the religious demographic here is a lot different than you assume.

Ender I take your point, tons of arguing on the internet meme could have applied but confrontation can be fun.

Why don't you take some of your own advice and go find a forum where confrontation like you are seeking is "widely accepted." Or is this too ironic for you to realize?

If you want a forum to troll people for "fun" (your words) go to reddit. Not here.

There may be a lot of christians here, but there are a lot of others, and the others are likely to jump on threads like the original subject here. If it was taken to a 'for christians only' type of forum, less risk of getting hurt feelings. Similar to when an atheist posts something here and the christers quickly swarm in and try to save them.

I think it's bullshit for you to call his post nonsense.

[2buttons]

Jesus loves you.

[Silverado]

Jesus loves you.

That guy is always hanging around

[ender]

There may be a lot of christians here, but there are a lot of others, and the others are likely to jump on threads like the original subject here. If it was taken to a 'for christians only' type of forum, less risk of getting hurt feelings. Similar to when an atheist posts something here and the christers quickly swarm in and try to save them.

I think it's bullshit for you to call his post nonsense.

Well, it's a bit nonsensical to tell people, "these forums won't respect you based on your religion. If you want to discuss something related to your religion, go somewhere else, those questions aren't welcomed here."

I challenge you to find a place where I can find Christians who are actively interested in the subject matter of this forum. Maybe we can request a private subforum. Or something like that.

It is possible I'm missing something about how this forum is supposed to work. My assumption is that religions are not banned from the forum. Is that an incorrect assumption?

And I will admit I am in favor of more strong moderation on these forums, perhaps I am in a minority for feeling this. I do not find it desirable or beneficial at all that a few individuals can single handedly shut down discussions by derailing them. I would much prefer that moderation strongly warn and then ban repeat offenders for this.

[LeRainDrop]

Look, I don't have any interest in crocheting, so when people start a thread about ideas for crocheting, I don't go in there and post about how boring I think their hobby is.  I just ignore that thread and instead spend my time on another thread that looks to be something I want to read about or to which I possibly could meaningfully contribute.  Now if they started a thread called something like, "Is crocheting fun or not?" then I might go in and say not.

There are many Christians on this forum, and I don't see why certain other members can't just let them have their advice thread without hacking away at the religious premise.  That seems utterly childish to me, and the fact that human says he just likes "confrontation" pretty much confirms that.  It's a lack of etiquette and manners, really.  Frankly, I'm not religious and would never do missionary work, but I can still easily give standard respect to the people who have that interest so that they can share their suggestions with each other.

[Metric Mouse]

Look, I don't have any interest in crocheting, so when people start a thread about ideas for crocheting, I don't go in there and post about how boring I think their hobby is.  I just ignore that thread and instead spend my time on another thread that looks to be something I want to read about or to which I possibly could meaningfully contribute.  Now if they started a thread called something like, "Is crocheting fun or not?" then I might go in and say not.

There are many Christians on this forum, and I don't see why certain other members can't just let them have their advice thread without hacking away at the religious premise.  That seems utterly childish to me, and the fact that human says he just likes "confrontation" pretty much confirms that.  It's a lack of etiquette and manners, really.  Frankly, I'm not religious and would never do missionary work, but I can still easily give standard respect to the people who have that interest so that they can share their suggestions with each other.

There are many people who post on firearm, vehicle purchase, vacation advice, market timing, individual stock trading threads etc. that are only there to post contrary views and degrade the op's choice.  It is childish. Welcome to MMM Forum. :D

On the flip-side, defending one's views against contrary opinions and alternate viewpoints can be helpful in some situations.  If one can't defend their viewpoint, perhaps there is an aspect of their view that could be refined.

[swick]

And I will admit I am in favor of more strong moderation on these forums, perhaps I am in a minority for feeling this. I do not find it desirable or beneficial at all that a few individuals can single handedly shut down discussions by derailing them. I would much prefer that moderation strongly warn and then ban repeat offenders for this.

I wasn't going to weigh in, but Ender hit on the main issue we have been having. It is super frustrating as a Mod that we spend a huge amount of our time dealing with threads that one or two people have derailed. There is a lot of volunteer ime spent trying to detangle who said what and when and how we can moderate in a way that doesn't stifle those who are genuinely participating. This is usually what we try and do BEFORE shutting down a thread nd we lose the opportunity for good discourse and the ability to learn from each other.

Human, you weren't the main one going off topic in that thread, which is why (contrary to the post warning of a temporary ban if people continued) you got a simple warning (the quote in the OP) instead of the ban. 

Look, I don't have any interest in crocheting, so when people start a thread about ideas for crocheting, I don't go in there and post about how boring I think their hobby is.  I just ignore that thread and instead spend my time on another thread that looks to be something I want to read about or to which I possibly could meaningfully contribute.  Now if they started a thread called something like, "Is crocheting fun or not?" then I might go in and say not.

There are many Christians on this forum, and I don't see why certain other members can't just let them have their advice thread without hacking away at the religious premise.  That seems utterly childish to me, and the fact that human says he just likes "confrontation" pretty much confirms that.  It's a lack of etiquette and manners, really.  Frankly, I'm not religious and would never do missionary work, but I can still easily give standard respect to the people who have that interest so that they can share their suggestions with each other.

Thanks, LeRainDrop. That is what it all comes down to, at the end of the day. Do we want a community of people all exactly like us? Or do we want to encourage and foster a diverse community with a wide variety of viewpoints? You may not always agree with them, but you can always choose to engage respectfully.

[expatartist]

Not sure if I can post this here or not but I was biting my tongue quite a bit. While some may find that kind of work benign I see it as insidious. Go live among them, become their friends, listen to their problems, help them and learn all about them. Then tell them "The Truth" with capital Ts no less. Exaggerating a bit but I see no difference in styles of missionary work.

The op in that thread had the complete opposite upbringing than I did. I was raised catholic. Don't worry nothing happened, in fact the confirmation priest was quite open minded. In the end the conservative stance of the church and my realization that faith accomplishes nothing - people accomplish things lead me to atheism.

+1

I too was raised Catholic, but have been atheist for years. While I always enjoy chatting with Jesuits, I was always leery of their motives.

The missionary post made my blood boil TBH. These kinds of communities they're going to 'help' are fragile enough as it is. Even necessary civic help - medicine, engineering projects, education - disrupts culture by imposing different language and power structures. Last thing they need are more strings attached to aid.

[2buttons]

So what kind of aid is no strings attached? You realize that does not exist, Right? Like nowhere, ever.

These two threads just compelled me to write a check to help underwrite more missionaries.

Good on you Christians for helping people, rather than arm chair quarterbacking and admitting you aren't going to do anything and don't want others with a different religious viewpoint to help people suffering.

Good message, atheists. Really winning hearts and minds.

[PKFFW]

I'm still confused as to why religious views and posts should receive special treatment?

I agree with should treat everyone with respect and dignity.  If we disagree with a viewpoint we should always respectfully question the other person about the topic and not resort to personal attacks etc.

However....

We can facepunch someone we disagree with financially.  We can tear apart political views we disagree with.   2nd Amendment/gun enthusiasts are routinely disagreed with and such threads are routinely derailed.  GOP supporters are rigorously questioned and often admonished.  No one suggests anyone holding those views should not be disagreed with or that others should simply ignore those threads.

So why should we simply avoid any posting or disagreement on any subject that is religious?

[arebelspy]

I'm still confused as to why religious views and posts should receive special treatment?

MOD NOTE: Who said they did?

Read the forum rules.

Those are what is moderated on.

If you'd like to critique someone's views on ____[whatever]____ and can do so without being a jerk, being respectful, go for it.

[human]

Ender it's strange that you consider my posts in that thread to have bashed all christians and christianity. They were focused on missionary work. As for the comment from someone about all aid tied to something, really? I have a friend who went to tanzania to help a school build a garden I don't remember her making that help conditional and she paid her own way. Another friend went to palestine and bolivia to help in schools again paid her own way.

It's been twenty years since i read the bible and I know people pick and choose passages but I think any Christian can help someone else without the intent to convert or spread the truth. There is no requirement to do those things as far as I know. Was I a bit snarky in my comments? Yes and the only time I would not react that way is at work. In fact at work and tell the person not to talk to me about me about it period.

If someone asks hey should I do this or this and I think they shouldn't I will tell them so and my reasoning.

Ender keep running in circles if you like but you're not really making any sense. You're essentially saying one group of people here should have segregated forum discussions which seems to contradict the need for missionaries to discuss religion and spread the truth. You can spread the truth but we must shut our mouths when you do so?

That is the hypocrosiy that is wrong with many religions.

[2buttons]

Really? She just picked a place in Tanzania and went there with a shovel all by herself? There wasn't an NGO that was likely government funded involved? Most NGOs unless religious based are usually funded by the US or other governments and you can bet your sweet opinion they condition every dollar.

This is the most narrow minded thread I have read in a long time.  You think missionaries say you cannot have food unless you read the bible? You think that's how it works? 

You don't think they help everyone regardless of religion and hope that they might consider their viewpoint in the process? 

Maybe you should get out of your computer chair and go on a mission and see how it actually works, and then blast them for helping people suffering in the world.  The hypocrisy is the ridiculous idea that helping people regardless of whether it is wrapped in a bible passage is a bad idea, when you consider the alternative of letting them suffer and die. 

Like I said, really winning hearts and minds here.

[justajane]

I think many missionaries do great work. As a church goer (half-hearted at best at this point), I would just not to fund American missionaries whose main goal is to convert non-Americans. It just doesn't sit well with me. I would #1 rather fund local Christians who are native speakers and grew up in the culture who want to start a church or philanthropic mission or #2 Americans who want to practically fulfill a certain need in a culture, preferably a humanitarian one.

And I agree with 2buttons that every organization has an agenda, although some agendas are more worthy than others.

[Primm]

So what kind of aid is no strings attached? You realize that does not exist, Right? Like nowhere, ever.

These two threads just compelled me to write a check to help underwrite more missionaries.

Good on you Christians for helping people, rather than arm chair quarterbacking and admitting you aren't going to do anything and don't want others with a different religious viewpoint to help people suffering.

Good message, atheists. Really winning hearts and minds.

Oh wow.

Going to make popcorn now, anyone want some?

Two words. Spanish Inquisition. Three more words. Medicins San Frontiers.

If neither of those ring any bells, google them.

[ender]

Ender it's strange that you consider my posts in that thread to have bashed all christians and christianity. They were focused on missionary work. As for the comment from someone about all aid tied to something, really? I have a friend who went to tanzania to help a school build a garden I don't remember her making that help conditional and she paid her own way. Another friend went to palestine and bolivia to help in schools again paid her own way.

It's been twenty years since i read the bible and I know people pick and choose passages but I think any Christian can help someone else without the intent to convert or spread the truth. There is no requirement to do those things as far as I know. Was I a bit snarky in my comments? Yes and the only time I would not react that way is at work. In fact at work and tell the person not to talk to me about me about it period.

If someone asks hey should I do this or this and I think they shouldn't I will tell them so and my reasoning.

Ender keep running in circles if you like but you're not really making any sense. You're essentially saying one group of people here should have segregated forum discussions which seems to contradict the need for missionaries to discuss religion and spread the truth. You can spread the truth but we must shut our mouths when you do so?

That is the hypocrosiy that is wrong with many religions.

Honestly, if it became a forum rule that derailing discussion away from the obvious intent of the OP was not allowed, I would be wholly in support. The specific example here is a perfect example of a few people shutting down an otherwise interesting, insightful, and meaningful thread.

[2buttons]

So what kind of aid is no strings attached? You realize that does not exist, Right? Like nowhere, ever.

These two threads just compelled me to write a check to help underwrite more missionaries.

Good on you Christians for helping people, rather than arm chair quarterbacking and admitting you aren't going to do anything and don't want others with a different religious viewpoint to help people suffering.

Good message, atheists. Really winning hearts and minds.

Oh wow.

Going to make popcorn now, anyone want some?

Two words. Spanish Inquisition. Three more words. Medicins San Frontiers.

If neither of those ring any bells, google them.

I am having trouble following your point? Are you suggesting that modern day missions trips are equivalent to the Spanish Inquisition from 1480? You cannot be possibly trying to equate the two, can you?

Sorry, but even MSF, while probably the best chance you had, is still political and takes money from everyone including AusAid (chosen specifically because you are an Australian).

[J_Stache]

and he always needs money....

I love George Carlin!

[davisgang90]

So what kind of aid is no strings attached? You realize that does not exist, Right? Like nowhere, ever.

These two threads just compelled me to write a check to help underwrite more missionaries.

Good on you Christians for helping people, rather than arm chair quarterbacking and admitting you aren't going to do anything and don't want others with a different religious viewpoint to help people suffering.

Good message, atheists. Really winning hearts and minds.

Oh wow.

Going to make popcorn now, anyone want some?

Two words. Spanish Inquisition. Three more words. Medicins San Frontiers.

If neither of those ring any bells, google them.

Three words.  Great Leap Forward.  Two more.  Great Purge.

Atheists in action.  If you don't like the comparison then don't compare Christians to ancient events.

[Northwestie]

Damn phone.

I'll chill I guess. Just don't like being told I have displayed some sort of faulty logic by others who are clearly unable to see their own.

Good point - you'll certainly be put on the watch list for this!!

[Gin1984]

So what kind of aid is no strings attached? You realize that does not exist, Right? Like nowhere, ever.

These two threads just compelled me to write a check to help underwrite more missionaries.

Good on you Christians for helping people, rather than arm chair quarterbacking and admitting you aren't going to do anything and don't want others with a different religious viewpoint to help people suffering.

Good message, atheists. Really winning hearts and minds.

Oh wow.

Going to make popcorn now, anyone want some?

Two words. Spanish Inquisition. Three more words. Medicins San Frontiers.

If neither of those ring any bells, google them.

Three words.  Great Leap Forward.  Two more.  Great Purge.

Atheists in action.  If you don't like the comparison then don't compare Christians to ancient events.

Given that many laws that harmed non-Christians were only repealed in 70s, it is not ancient history.  I personally know a woman arrested 70s for being pagan.  Yes she was not killed but jailed is a big deal.  And if we look around the world even today, you see harm done by Abrahamic religions.  Anti-gay bills, requiring non-atheism to be a public official (in the US).  I honestly can go on and on just using things that happened in my lifetime and I'm young.  If I get to use my mother's I would have pages.  The attitude is still there, so when you have a group that with that attitude going into area with the sole purpose of using the need of populous to convert them (as they did over and over since gaining power), people are going to point to when that group had enough power to harm even more directly. 

[ender]

I'm trying to decide if those derailing this thread into a "religion, good/bad?" discussion are doing so ironically or unintentionally.

[MrDelane]

Three words.  Great Leap Forward.  Two more.  Great Purge.

Atheists in action.  If you don't like the comparison then don't compare Christians to ancient events.

To be fair, neither of those examples were motivated by Atheism, they were motivated by political ideology.  They may have had Atheists at the helm, but that doesn't mean that Atheism was the cause.  There is a significant difference between something being done by a proponent of a belief and something done because of that belief.

For example, President Truman dropped the bomb on Japan and he was Christian.  Most would agree he did not drop the bomb on Japan because he was Christian.

[MrDelane]

Hitler was a catholic.... there I jumped ahead and mentioned Hitler... this is where this thread was headed a long as we all know... ;)

Haha.
This made my day.
:)

[Spork]

Hitler was a catholic.... there I jumped ahead and mentioned Hitler... this is where this thread was headed a long as we all know... ;)

Godwin's Law officially in effect. 

[human]

Awesome sd.

Just a recap since people are still engaging here. Never bashed religion just missionary work.

Both of these friends I mentioned above found volunteer work through local agencies and we are canadian not american, not that this makes a difference.
I don't think missionaries make aid conditional and never said this I just think focusing on the poor is obvioulsy taking advantage. When I worked at McDonalds Iwould see homeless street kids come in with some evangelical who would buy them food sit down with them and then start reading the bible to them, friggin awkward for everyone to watch.

You may not be telling people that with your aid comes the expectation to listen to bible lessons but if you offer someone a meal or build them a house and you ask them to come by to your place to listen to a bible lesson most considerate and thankful people will. It's not the Truth that people respond to it's your help, you could be offering the word of the True Unicorn and they would probably come on by.


Why not try what the scientologists do and focus on the developed world?

[davisgang90]

Three words.  Great Leap Forward.  Two more.  Great Purge.

Atheists in action.  If you don't like the comparison then don't compare Christians to ancient events.

To be fair, neither of those examples were motivated by Atheism, they were motivated by political ideology.  They may have had Atheists at the helm, but that doesn't mean that Atheism was the cause.  There is a significant difference between something being done by a proponent of a belief and something done because of that belief.

For example, President Truman dropped the bomb on Japan and he was Christian.  Most would agree he did not drop the bomb on Japan because he was Christian.

To be fair, during the time of the Spanish Inquisition, Catholicism was a political ideology. 

[PKFFW]

I'm still confused as to why religious views and posts should receive special treatment?

MOD NOTE: Who said they did?

Read the forum rules.

Those are what is moderated on.

If you'd like to critique someone's views on ____[whatever]____ and can do so without being a jerk, being respectful, go for it.

My mistake in not being clear.  I did not mean anyone suggested such topics be moderated differently.

Statements such as religious topics should be left alone and not posted in by those who disagree or that political viewpoints are fair game but "more delicate" topics need a softer approach imply that religious topics should receive different treatment to other topics from posters in general.

As you say, so long as one can not be a jerk about it, I don't see why religious topics should be treated any differently to any other topic is all I'm saying.

[expatartist]

So what kind of aid is no strings attached? You realize that does not exist, Right? Like nowhere, ever.

These two threads just compelled me to write a check to help underwrite more missionaries.

Good on you Christians for helping people, rather than arm chair quarterbacking and admitting you aren't going to do anything and don't want others with a different religious viewpoint to help people suffering.

Good message, atheists. Really winning hearts and minds.

I've spent years working with, financially supporting artisans in, or living in the third world, working on various projects related to cultural heritage, education, and research. The projects were well-intentioned; some were more effective than others, depending on the org I was working with or how we went about it. I started out quite naive, as most do.

Christian missionaries have left records of their activities over the past few centuries. I've read thousands of pages of missionary diaries and reports for my research, and have encountered contemporary missionaries in Southeast Asia. Always pleasant people, but there are plenty of NGOs doing better work in those areas, with no crosses involved.