Republican Run-in

[Chris Pascale]

I've always had no party affiliation, but in New York you can't vote in a primary unless you're registered with that party.

Wanting to vote for Yang, I re-registered, which led to me being asked to run as a delegate.

Last night, I was collecting signatures (Yang needs 5,000 to be on the ballot).

I introduce myself and say I'm running as a delegate and collecting signatures.

"You're a democrat?" he asks.

"Yes."

Turning his back he says, "I don't want anything to do with you."

30 minutes later, with zero irony, he says, "Do you know what we did? We had a conversation. People won't talk to each other anymore."

[TrudgingAlong]

I hope you pointed out his hypocrisy!

[John Galt incarnate!]

I don't know them personally but I do know of persons in my neighborhood who won't talk to Republicans.

Some restauranters refuse to serve patrons based on their political stripe.





Red Hen restaurant owner who kicked out Sarah Sanders ...
washingtontimes.red-hen-restaurant-owner...

Jul 1, 2019 - An owner of a Virginia restaurant that made headlines last year for refusing to serve White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders ...




San Mateo restaurant owner won't serve customers
abc7news.restaurant-owner-wont-serve-customers

Feb 1, 2019 - A San Mateo restaurant owner says customers will not be served if they are wearing a "Make America Great Again" hat.

[maizefolk]

I have friends from college whose view is that anyone who voted for Trump is clearly racist and sexist and dumb. I don't know if they'd actually refuse to speak to such a person because they live in parts of the country where there are likely very few Trump voters and if people did vote for him they probably don't advertise it.

Where I live the split is closer to 50/50, so I think it's harder for someone to convince themselves to deny the innate humanity of people who voted for a different candidate than they did.

Speaking of humanity:

Wanting to vote for Yang, I re-registered, which led to me being asked to run as a delegate.

Last night, I was collecting signatures (Yang needs 5,000 to be on the ballot).

That is awesome @Chris Pascale !

How did you find people's reactions overall when you were asking them to sign to put Yang on the ballot in New York?

Really great to hear that gathering signatures for his campaign led to genuine conversations between people who disagree politically. 

[iris lily]

We had old friends from our neighborhood visit from their West coast home.  One of them is rabidly anti-Trump. He asked me not to inform our mutual Trump voting friend of his visit because he didn’t want to talk to her.

Little did he know she didn’t want to talk to him either.

It is all stupid.

[iris lily]

I've always had no party affiliation, but in New York you can't vote in a primary unless you're registered with that party.

Wanting to vote for Yang, I re-registered, which led to me being asked to run as a delegate.

Last night, I was collecting signatures (Yang needs 5,000 to be on the ballot).

I introduce myself and say I'm running as a delegate and collecting signatures.

"You're a democrat?" he asks.

"Yes."

Turning his back he says, "I don't want anything to do with you."

30 minutes later, with zero irony, he says, "Do you know what we did? We had a conversation. People won't talk to each other anymore."

Well you were going door to door (I assume) and that is a tough job.

I complimented the young lady who came to my door campaigning for our city’s version of AOC, someone I would never in a million years vote for.  But I told the young lady standing on my doorstep that she was a good representative of that politician and she was doing a hard  job, so good for her.

[Chris Pascale]

I have friends from college whose view is that anyone who voted for Trump is clearly racist and sexist and dumb. I don't know if they'd actually refuse to speak to such a person because they live in parts of the country where there are likely very few Trump voters and if people did vote for him they probably don't advertise it.

Where I live the split is closer to 50/50, so I think it's harder for someone to convince themselves to deny the innate humanity of people who voted for a different candidate than they did.

Speaking of humanity:

Wanting to vote for Yang, I re-registered, which led to me being asked to run as a delegate.

Last night, I was collecting signatures (Yang needs 5,000 to be on the ballot).

That is awesome @Chris Pascale !

How did you find people's reactions overall when you were asking them to sign to put Yang on the ballot in New York?

Really great to hear that gathering signatures for his campaign led to genuine conversations between people who disagree politically.

A good friend of mine really likes Trump (like, he didn't vote against Hillary, but for Trump).

People who meet this friend really like him. He is Mexican, and from California. So, whenever I hear that only racists like Trump, I'll say "he likes Trump. You know, the Mexican guy with the half-Mexican kids."

Another friend chose Trump as the lesser of two evils. Again, he's an intellectual guy and very nice. He is white and his wife is not.

Obviously, these are just 2 anecdotes, but I know some Trump voters who have inter-racial marriages, and I know some Clinton voters who have no friends/relatives of other races.

PEOPLE'S REACTIONS TO ME GOING DOOR-TO-DOOR: Generally, people react more to whether they want to sign something or not. A lot of them say they don't pay attention until the voting really starts.

For example, one woman said she wouldn't sign because I knocked on her door on New Year's Day. Another man wouldn't sign because he wanted to know more.

[Chris Pascale]

We had old friends from our neighborhood visit from their West coast home.  One of them is rabidly anti-Trump. He asked me not to inform our mutual Trump voting friend of his visit because he didn’t want to talk to her.

Little did he know she didn’t want to talk to him either.

It is all stupid.

Agreed. The friend I mentioned above - who is Mexican - said he's got many less Facebook friends because he posts about things he likes that Trump does, like prison reform, loan forgiveness for disabled vets, etc.

My wife and I stopped using Facebook after the election. We posted "If anyone wants to split a timeshare on Camp David, let us know," the joke being that we elected a hotelier. No one replied online (no thumbs up/down, or comments), and several called us on the phone.

That's really cool that you gave encouragement the young lady going door-to-door. What's nice is that for 1 hour each night this month I'll meet people in my town while also spending quality time with my oldest daughter.

[Just Joe]

We've lost a few friends since Barack Obama was first elected. I hope to them it doesn't look like we abandoned them but they were so anti-Obama (and now so pro-Trump) that they were difficult to be around. There is more to talk about than White House politics and what Fox News said yesterday. In other words what do YOU think - not what do the TV pundits think. Or - the kids are getting so big and dinner was really tasty.

[MishMash]

Oh man, I deal with my neighbors with this.  They are SO far right and involved in a lot of conspiracy theory websites and post random memes of completely untrue shit. 

Like they posted a meme about that Republican candidate getting suspended from Twitter for "no reason" but Hillary still isn't in jail for Benghazi.  I posted back to him that she wasn't suspended for no reason, she was suspended for calling on Omar to be killed over an unproven conspiracy theory.  And I asked how he would feel if Obama had posted that.  He responded, and a couple of his friends that said former president should have been assassinated long ago.  I've even recommended they read the book "Like War" (which is actually really good, and does a lot of good explaining about the weaponizing of social media) I can't take that level of crazy anymore so I unfriended him on Facebook. 

I've tried having logical conversations with them, explaining how universal medical works in Europe but was told "that's too expensive" I said you seem to like your Medicare, how is that not too expensive, or how is the 20 grand some people have to pay BEFORE the insurance kicks in not too expensive?  Logic that doesn't come from political memes seems to escape them.  The husband is just pissed because he lost his job under Obama and they had to move to FL because property taxes were to high in NJ.

[libertarian4321]

I've never understood the nuts who refuse to talk to anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Without discussion, with people who want to enforce one way of thinking and restrict any speech they disagree with, this country is in trouble.

If people would get past their political rage blinders, they might find that they have a lot in agreement with other folks, even those that voted for the other party.

I talk to plenty of people who are pretty hard core Trump supporters, and others who vote Dem all the time.  None of them are demons.  We don't have to agree on politics to get along as people.

FWIW, I didn't vote for Trump or Hillary, and from the looks of the Dem front runners, I probably won't vote for either major party candidate in 2020.  There is one Dem (Tulsi Gabbard) I would vote for, not because I agree with all of her policy ideas, but because I think she is rational, reasonable, and has the right temperament for the job.  Yang seems okay, too, for the most part, but that UBI thing is a bit extreme.

[Bloop Bloop]

There are not a lot of views that I think are completely indefensible. Even a view that I strongly disagree with, say racism or nationalism, might be caused by economic insecurity mixed with naïveté or ignorance.

Similarly, whilst I am very strongly pro killing babies, I also understand that many people who are anti-abortion have reasonable ethical arguments, or they might have religious arguments which I usually find unreasonable but which may come from a place of good intentions and good faith (literally). So I would strongly advise against snap judgments based on affiliation with this or that party.

I do think that being able to talk to a variety of people, and understand their thoughts and behaviour, is good for you both on a personal level and a professional level. You should be able to argue both sides with equal facility, if only to try to understand the other perspective. This doesn't stop you from thinking 100% that it's wrong. It may be objectively wrong but there's a rhyme and reason to most political stances.

As a moderate libertarian/neoliberal, my views go against those of most internet communities, which is fine by me. I am very sceptical of any community where there is a strong hive mind or herd behaviour. MMM forums are one of the very best in fighting against that.

[Chris Pascale]

I hope you pointed out his hypocrisy!

Missed this.

No, because it wasn't a conversation. 3 times he asked me how I could be a democrat, and 3 times I said: "I can't vote in the primary unless I'm registered, and I like Yang."

[Chris Pascale]

@Just Joe - what's crazy to me is that people who were rabid and afraid of an Obama presidency do not seem to understand why others are panicking about a Trump one, as they had about Bush and Clinton.

@MishMash - this really sucks. When we were on FB someone would post about Chelsea Clinton fake-tweets or fake quotes from a Hillary book. What for? I'd reply something like "if only there was a way to find out if this was true," and she'd blindly confirm it is, to which I'd post the link refuting it. Total waste of time.

@libertarian4321 - I like Gabbard, especially when she lit up Harris for being a pot smoker who prosecuted pot smokers. Also, it's nice to think that a divorced Hindu is accepted as a candidate we could elect. Regarding UBI, a big part of it is paid-for by swapping out food stamps and cash welfare. Among food stamp recipients are 23k troops each month.

Food Stamp Source - https://www.npr.org/2018/02/17/586759930/military-families-and-snap-benefits

@Bloop Bloop - I find it surprising when people say "how could anyone vote for ________?" which makes me like Andrew Yang, because he's say "we're ignoring these people, and these issues. They aren't racist; they are trying to get solutions." Or something like that.

[Leisured]

There is more to talk about than White House politics and what Fox News said yesterday.

This sums it up. The state Department runs the US, and always has, and other rich countries are also run by their government bureaucracies.
 

[ketchup]

There are people I know who disagree with me quite a bit politically.  Even among close friends, that just means a mutual unspoken "let's not talk about politics" policy unless we're specifically and civilly discussing different views on something.  It really doesn't have to be a big deal unless all you ever think about or talk about is politics.

[MishMash]

This is one of things that disgusts me the most about politics. So you won’t talk to someone or have them as a friend because of how they voted? Really? As if clown#1 is all that much better than clown #2?

Then again, I have to admit that these sorts of outrageous behaviors to something as intrinsically evil as politics just serve to drive more of the rational people to the apoliticism camp. So I guess I should be thankful for it.  But I’d really prefer that people would act rationally instead.

Precisely how I feel.  But the amount of false meme bullcrap that gets shared on FB annoys the ever living crap out of me.  Especially when 2 seconds on google would show you how fake the meme you just shared is.

The book I mentioned, Like War, was written by a gentleman well known to us, and we have many friends who have made a career out of cyber.  Peoples inability to apply basic logic and reasoning and insistence that everything our current intelligence agencies say is false, just because a meme, fake facebook page, or 4chan told them so literally enrages me.  I'm about ready to start mailing copies to all the worst offenders I know, but I doubt they would read it, and even if they did, ignore the facts and that's the part I have trouble dealing with.

[Scandium]

Oh man, I deal with my neighbors with this.  They are SO far right and involved in a lot of conspiracy theory websites and post random memes of completely untrue shit. 

Like they posted a meme about that Republican candidate getting suspended from Twitter for "no reason" but Hillary still isn't in jail for Benghazi.  I posted back to him that she wasn't suspended for no reason, she was suspended for calling on Omar to be killed over an unproven conspiracy theory.  And I asked how he would feel if Obama had posted that.  He responded, and a couple of his friends that said former president should have been assassinated long ago.  I've even recommended they read the book "Like War" (which is actually really good, and does a lot of good explaining about the weaponizing of social media) I can't take that level of crazy anymore so I unfriended him on Facebook. 

I've tried having logical conversations with them, explaining how universal medical works in Europe but was told "that's too expensive" I said you seem to like your Medicare, how is that not too expensive, or how is the 20 grand some people have to pay BEFORE the insurance kicks in not too expensive?  Logic that doesn't come from political memes seems to escape them.  The husband is just pissed because he lost his job under Obama and they had to move to FL because property taxes were to high in NJ.

It doesn't happen much due to where I live, and people keep it themselves, but I have no interest in talking to Trump supporters (at least not about politics!) for this reason. They exist in a looney alternative fact universe totally disconnected from the rest of the country, and the world. So what's the point of engaging them? Sure I might disagree with a hillary supporter about some point of policy, but at least they'll usually inhabit the same reality as I! Not some aggrieved psycho, foxnews world where obama is a kenyan muslim going to pedo pizza places, gay people want to ruin your marriage and force you to bake them cake, and (((sorros))) wants to exterminate white people. No these are not fringe ideas, this is pretty basic GOP thinking shown daily on fox news and breitbart, and POTUS twitter.

So when people say nonsense like "we need to communicate and understand our differences" I say why? What's the point of trying to understand someone who lives in a fact-denying fantasy world? Or worse; talk to them about politics??! *shudder!

[GuitarStv]

I'll talk to anybody about anything.  But in general, there are certain things that it's not worth arguing about.  If someone supports Trump there's not much point in discussing facts . . . just as if someone is a neo-nazi there's not much point talking about the finer points of gangsta rap.  There's just no interest in the topic.  Better to stick to the weather.

[Just Joe]

Oh man, I deal with my neighbors with this.  They are SO far right and involved in a lot of conspiracy theory websites and post random memes of completely untrue shit. 

Like they posted a meme about that Republican candidate getting suspended from Twitter for "no reason" but Hillary still isn't in jail for Benghazi.  I posted back to him that she wasn't suspended for no reason, she was suspended for calling on Omar to be killed over an unproven conspiracy theory.  And I asked how he would feel if Obama had posted that.  He responded, and a couple of his friends that said former president should have been assassinated long ago.  I've even recommended they read the book "Like War" (which is actually really good, and does a lot of good explaining about the weaponizing of social media) I can't take that level of crazy anymore so I unfriended him on Facebook. 

I've tried having logical conversations with them, explaining how universal medical works in Europe but was told "that's too expensive" I said you seem to like your Medicare, how is that not too expensive, or how is the 20 grand some people have to pay BEFORE the insurance kicks in not too expensive?  Logic that doesn't come from political memes seems to escape them.  The husband is just pissed because he lost his job under Obama and they had to move to FL because property taxes were to high in NJ.

It doesn't happen much due to where I live, and people keep it themselves, but I have no interest in talking to Trump supporters (at least not about politics!) for this reason. They exist in a looney alternative fact universe totally disconnected from the rest of the country, and the world. So what's the point of engaging them? Sure I might disagree with a hillary supporter about some point of policy, but at least they'll usually inhabit the same reality as I! Not some aggrieved psycho, foxnews world where obama is a kenyan muslim going to pedo pizza places, gay people want to ruin your marriage and force you to bake them cake, and (((sorros))) wants to exterminate white people. No these are not fringe ideas, this is pretty basic GOP thinking shown daily on fox news and breitbart, and POTUS twitter.

So when people say nonsense like "we need to communicate and understand our differences" I say why? What's the point of trying to understand someone who lives in a fact-denying fantasy world? Or worse; talk to them about politics??! *shudder!

While I certainly see the value and importance of communicating with everyone and building bridges - I've run into a fair number of these types of characters and it is SO tiring.

Benghazi! Sorros! Barack Obama will seize everyone's guns and is driving up the cost of bullets! Obama will burn the constitution and do whatever he pleases! A black man in power! Hillary!!!  GAH!!!

If I abandon any friendships over these sorts of topics its as much the fact that they allow themselves to buy into these loony ideas as much as anything else. That they can't be swayed by multiple factual sources that dispute what Trump's crew or FoxNews says is another red 'X' against these people. I want to surround myself with thoughtful and intelligent people, not people who see boogiemen around every corner. I want to learn from my peers. Don't even mind showing a few lost sheep the way back to the real world but I'm not prepared to endlessly argue with them or live with their abuse.

I'll admit that back in the early 90s when Rush Limbaugh first hit the national stage, I was a reader of his books and a listener to his radio show. For a short time. And then a little self-study showed what this man was made of and what he part of. The USA needs to shed these idiots and ridicule them into oblivion.

It amazes me that these antique ideas persist into the 21st century. I guess ignorance is timeless.

[Chris Pascale]

...............it is SO tiring.

Benghazi! Sorros! Barack Obama will seize everyone's guns.........................ignorance is timeless.

President Obama received Straight F's from some anti-gun groups, but you couldn't actually say that to anyone.

Someone once told me Obama wouldn't let the USMC drill team have bolts in their rifles because they'd assassinate him, and he knew it. When I replied that this was literally impossible because it would mean that the drill team could not perform INSPECTION ARMS, the response was not to share further anti-Obama info with me.

What's nuts is that Benghazi was one of many embassy attacks during the Obama administration. Just as the Bush Admin had a bunch of them - https://www.politifact.com/embassyattacks/

[soccerluvof4]

There are people I know who disagree with me quite a bit politically.  Even among close friends, that just means a mutual unspoken "let's not talk about politics" policy unless we're specifically and civilly discussing different views on something.  It really doesn't have to be a big deal unless all you ever think about or talk about is politics.

Bingo!

[DadJokes]

I don't even talk politics with people I agree with.

[talltexan]

I actually make a point of snoozing people on facebook because they agree with me too often. I don't want to be in an echo chamber.

[partgypsy]

I feel I am pretty mainstream even though I gasp! Vote for Democratic candidates. I haven't gotten into too many Facebook type arguments because while I do post about topics I care about, I don't post too much specifically political stuff. But I do have friends who are more outspoken (mostly females) who then get trolled and harrassed. Not worth it.

My father in law who is a educated, widely read guy who also happened to work in business and so knew a lot of business types, well one of them was libertarian who was actually a long time friend, went to his wedding, etc. After Obama got elected this guy got unhinged, would yell obscenities and tweet/forward fake news to my FIL. And my FIL would be patient and try to actually have a conversation with him. I mean FIL is Christian also and was trying to be a better person, but if it was me, I would be "F- off". In the same way FIL was very close to his cousin, more like brothers. His cousin was anti-Obama and frankly racist, and when FIL would speak factually or what his views were, was simply name-called and dismissed. I would not have had so much patience. I mean why even talk to people who disagree with facts that can be easily checked? And I'm tired of these rich white guys saying THEY are the victims in the US. PLEASE.

[js82]

There's no one that I refuse to speak to, but a number of people that I refuse to mention anything remotely political in the vicinity of, because of their inability to use logic, and to recognize facts as such.  It just won't be a productive conversation.

These same individuals can still be perfectly delightful in contexts that don't involve politics.

That said, my closest friends mostly have politics similar to my own.  Unsurprisingly, the people I feel most comfortable around are those whose values are similar to mine.

I actually make a point of snoozing people on facebook because they agree with me too often. I don't want to be in an echo chamber.

I like to discuss/debate politics, but I've found that the number of people who can do so in an objective/dispassionate manner without making things personal to be very, very few.

[Kris]

There's no one that I refuse to speak to, but a number of people that I refuse to mention anything remotely political in the vicinity of, because of their inability to use logic, and to recognize facts as such.  It just won't be a productive conversation.

These same individuals can still be perfectly delightful in contexts that don't involve politics.

That said, my closest friends mostly have politics similar to my own.  Unsurprisingly, the people I feel most comfortable around are those whose values are similar to mine.

I actually make a point of snoozing people on facebook because they agree with me too often. I don't want to be in an echo chamber.

I like to discuss/debate politics, but I've found that the number of people who can do so in an objective/dispassionate manner without making things personal to be very, very few.

I like discussing politics, as well. What I hate is arguing in bad faith. And that is rampant these days, unfortunately. So I don’t get to have good debates with people on the other side of the aisle very often.

[Just Joe]

I feel I am pretty mainstream even though I gasp! Vote for Democratic candidates. I haven't gotten into too many Facebook type arguments because while I do post about topics I care about, I don't post too much specifically political stuff. But I do have friends who are more outspoken (mostly females) who then get trolled and harrassed. Not worth it.

My father in law who is a educated, widely read guy who also happened to work in business and so knew a lot of business types, well one of them was libertarian who was actually a long time friend, went to his wedding, etc. After Obama got elected this guy got unhinged, would yell obscenities and tweet/forward fake news to my FIL. And my FIL would be patient and try to actually have a conversation with him. I mean FIL is Christian also and was trying to be a better person, but if it was me, I would be "F- off". In the same way FIL was very close to his cousin, more like brothers. His cousin was anti-Obama and frankly racist, and when FIL would speak factually or what his views were, was simply name-called and dismissed. I would not have had so much patience. I mean why even talk to people who disagree with facts that can be easily checked? And I'm tired of these rich white guys saying THEY are the victims in the US. PLEASE.

It is shocking to see how rabidly anti-Obama anti-Hillary anti-liberal some people became...

[libertarian4321]

I'll talk to anybody about anything.  But in general, there are certain things that it's not worth arguing about.  If someone supports Trump there's not much point in discussing facts . . . just as if someone is a neo-nazi there's not much point talking about the finer points of gangsta rap.  There's just no interest in the topic.  Better to stick to the weather.

You do realize someone could support Trump for President without actually BEING exactly like Trump, don't you?

Also, not every Trump supporter agrees with everything he says.

Hence, you should be able to figure out that your hatred of Trump does not mean all of those who vote for him are stupid or delusional.

[GuitarStv]

I'll talk to anybody about anything.  But in general, there are certain things that it's not worth arguing about.  If someone supports Trump there's not much point in discussing facts . . . just as if someone is a neo-nazi there's not much point talking about the finer points of gangsta rap.  There's just no interest in the topic.  Better to stick to the weather.

You do realize someone could support Trump for President without actually BEING exactly like Trump, don't you?

Also, not every Trump supporter agrees with everything he says.

Hence, you should be able to figure out that your hatred of Trump does not mean all of those who vote for him are stupid or delusional.

I've yet to come across a fact based, reasoned argument to support Donald Trump as the president.  I mean . . . it's always possible though, sure.  It's possible that there could be neo-nazis who are really into gangsta rap too.  But the odds pretty high are that the nazi will be racist and the Trumpist is stupid and/or delusional, so it seems safest to stick to the weather.

FWIW, I don't hate Donald Trump . . . or wish him any ill.  He's a terrible human being, a shit conservative, and a poor leader though.  It would be great to not have to wake up with news of the latest stupid shit he has done to destabilize the world every morning.  That's not coming from hatred of the man, but a general dislike of consequences that the world has to suffer for the actions he regularly takes.

[Steeze]

To quote my dear sister, “If you don’t believe what I believe then your my enemy”

When speaking about my southern baptist parents going to a church organized pro-life rally. My sister went to protest the rally with her transgender girlfriend.

Hello!? Those are our parents!? They have believed the same thing for the last 60 years. No need to make them your enemy just because you moved to the city and got an education and a rainbow tattoo.

Most the time both sides are pretty unreasonable, but I’ve never heard my parents call my sister their enemy just because she has a very different set of values.

Yes, the holidays are tense these days.

[Davnasty]

Interesting how hell seems to be other people. The other person is rabid, irrational, unwilling to consider facts, deluded, anti-liberal, anti-conservative, foaming at the mouth, hateful, and their mother sure dresses them funny. Too bad they aren’t more, well, more like me.

Only two of the words in this list have been used in this thread; rabid and anti-liberal.

Making a list of negative words, most of which haven't been written before this comment, is not furthering the conversation.

[Davnasty]

To quote my dear sister, “If you don’t believe what I believe then your my enemy”

When speaking about my southern baptist parents going to a church organized pro-life rally. My sister went to protest the rally with her transgender girlfriend.

Hello!? Those are our parents!? They have believed the same thing for the last 60 years. No need to make them your enemy just because you moved to the city and got an education and a rainbow tattoo.

Most the time both sides are pretty unreasonable, but I’ve never heard my parents call my sister their enemy just because she has a very different set of values.

Yes, the holidays are tense these days.

Unfortunately there are some people who get too extreme like Steeze's sister. I hope what she said was out of anger, perhaps in the heat of an argument, rather than something she really believes.

I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I can't imagine.

[Chris Pascale]

I'll talk to anybody about anything.  But in general, there are certain things that it's not worth arguing about.  If someone supports Trump there's not much point in discussing facts . . . just as if someone is a neo-nazi there's not much point talking about the finer points of gangsta rap.  There's just no interest in the topic.  Better to stick to the weather.

You do realize someone could support Trump for President without actually BEING exactly like Trump, don't you?

Also, not every Trump supporter agrees with everything he says.

Hence, you should be able to figure out that your hatred of Trump does not mean all of those who vote for him are stupid or delusional.

This bleeds over too far. When I told a Democrat-friend that I like Yang, he sent me a link about how "White Supremacists Were Voting for Yang."

The article was about how some Trump voters liked Yang's mssg, and some were hash-tagging #YangGang online.

Basically, all Trump voters are KKK members, especially the South American guy in my office. Also, the KKK loves rich, New York, Ivy League lawyer, Asian guys.

[Chris Pascale]

To quote my dear sister, “If you don’t believe what I believe then your my enemy”

Yes, the holidays are tense these days.

Unfortunately there are some people who get too extreme..............

I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I can't imagine.

It's sad. A relative's boyfriend was the type to repeat Rush Limbaugh's daily talking points. I initially tried to have an honest exchange, but he was very rude.

I was honestly happy for the two of them, because they really liked each other, but it was believed that I despised him because he was a conservative. [I donated to a Republican candidate in that year's race].

[Chris Pascale]

I've yet to come across a fact based, reasoned argument to support Donald Trump as the president. 

Mike Pence.

[DadJokes]

I'll talk to anybody about anything.  But in general, there are certain things that it's not worth arguing about.  If someone supports Trump there's not much point in discussing facts . . . just as if someone is a neo-nazi there's not much point talking about the finer points of gangsta rap.  There's just no interest in the topic.  Better to stick to the weather.

You do realize someone could support Trump for President without actually BEING exactly like Trump, don't you?

Also, not every Trump supporter agrees with everything he says.

Hence, you should be able to figure out that your hatred of Trump does not mean all of those who vote for him are stupid or delusional.

Here in this bible belt area, I've talked with a few people who dislike almost everything about Trump but voted for him for only one reason: conservative judges on the Supreme Court. The abortion issue is that important to them.

[talltexan]

I've yet to come across a fact based, reasoned argument to support Donald Trump as the president. 

Mike Pence.

Perhaps you meant to type more than this?

[neo von retorch]

Man am I loathe to join any political thread and I'll probably delete this 😂.

Chapter 10 of 12
https://waitbutwhy.com/2020/01/sick-giant.html

(Start here if you've got a lot of time on your hands - https://waitbutwhy.com/2019/08/story-of-us.html )

The story so far...

As individuals we all spend moments thinking  more clearly and critically about ideas, values and beliefs. Other times, perhaps because we feel threatened physically or psychologically, and our thinking is more primitive and instinctual. As groups, we reflect this individual struggle, and within groups, we also take on some of the group's way of thinking including values and beliefs because not being firmly in the group psychologically threatens our relatedness/belonging to the group,and because members of the group try to protect the group by attacking the expression of less strongly held beliefs.

While an ideal would be an outward expression in voice and media accurately reflecting what each individual really thinks, the reality is of course very different. In the past sixty years, geographic mobility and information bubbles have been escalated by various contributing factors, resulting in a downward spiral of polarization. In the 80s and 90s, cable news shifted "broadcasting" into "narrowcasting" which allowed news to have more slant. In the 2000s and 2010s, internet news has taken this to a further extreme. The news that almost everyone reads is more biased than we realize, but it's just one piece of a bigger puzzle. We're surrounding ourselves with people that more or less agree with us... i.e. the original intent of this thread to discuss trying to talk rationally with those that disagree with our beliefs. Further, news/media is a profit-seeking industry that gets way more attention when they highlight anything negative, and as it caters to more and more extreme versions of each side, they benefit from highlighting disgust with the other side. As this escalates, we begin to dehumanize and demonize the "other" to the point where some even call them the "enemy."

Overall this is an exploration of lots of contributing factors, and I've yet to read a solution... beyond knowing that integrating socially with people that disagree helps to personalize them once again, softens the extremism and reduces the hostility. But people aren't choosing to socially integrate, and as the extreme polarization has widened, it becomes increasingly difficult to do so.

[GuitarStv]

I've yet to come across a fact based, reasoned argument to support Donald Trump as the president. 

Mike Pence.

Thanks for your input.


Still waiting for a fact based, reasoned argument to support Donald Trump as the president.

[Just Joe]

I'll talk to anybody about anything.  But in general, there are certain things that it's not worth arguing about.  If someone supports Trump there's not much point in discussing facts . . . just as if someone is a neo-nazi there's not much point talking about the finer points of gangsta rap.  There's just no interest in the topic.  Better to stick to the weather.

You do realize someone could support Trump for President without actually BEING exactly like Trump, don't you?

Also, not every Trump supporter agrees with everything he says.

Hence, you should be able to figure out that your hatred of Trump does not mean all of those who vote for him are stupid or delusional.

Here in this bible belt area, I've talked with a few people who dislike almost everything about Trump but voted for him for only one reason: conservative judges on the Supreme Court. The abortion issue is that important to them.

And the concept of unintended consequences so well applies to wedge issues.

They want conservative judges, which requires conservative politicians in place. Conservative politicians more often than the other party relies on violence as a tool to manage problems. These voters are worried about potential babies being aborted but conveniently ignore the lives these babies might live lacking for so many things. Meanwhile the same conservative leadership relies on bombs and bullets to reach far into other countries to steer those people's lives and in the process kill many people - adults, elderly, and children alike.

When I hear someone rattle off support for wedge issues its easy to think that their understanding of current events is based only short cheatsheets supplied by their favorite politicians.

[DadJokes]

Chapter 10 of 12
https://waitbutwhy.com/2020/01/sick-giant.html

I've enjoyed the series, but holy crap are those posts way too long. That particular one is north of 17k words, not to mention the linked items are also beneficial to understand and all of the charts.

[ericrugiero]

As a conservative in the outskirts of the Bible belt I mostly hear from people who think "They" (liberals) are unreasonable and don't have good intentions and/or reasons for their beliefs.  In this forum, the dynamic is switched and it's mostly people who think "They" (conservatives) don't have good intentions and/or reasons for their beliefs. 

I have one conservative and one liberal friend on facebook who CONSTANTLY post things blasting the other side.  In most cases, they have no chance of changing anyone's mind and are divisive.  It's pointless and annoying from both sides. 

In reality, I believe most of the people on both sides mean well and really want what is best for others.  They vote in elections for the option that lines up the most with what they believe will help out the country and the people in it.  There are assumptions or core beliefs on both sides and if you believe the basic assumptions then the logical arguments from there make sense. 

[neo von retorch]

In reality, I believe most of the people on both sides mean well and really want what is best for others.  They vote in elections for the option that lines up the most with what they believe will help out the country and the people in it.  There are assumptions or core beliefs on both sides and if you believe the basic assumptions then the logical arguments from there make sense.

All of this was true before the polarization which means those "core beliefs" have drifted further from each other, and are now more likely to be at odds with each other rather than just mildly different perspectives, or mildly shuffled values.

[ericrugiero]

In reality, I believe most of the people on both sides mean well and really want what is best for others.  They vote in elections for the option that lines up the most with what they believe will help out the country and the people in it.  There are assumptions or core beliefs on both sides and if you believe the basic assumptions then the logical arguments from there make sense.

All of this was true before the polarization which means those "core beliefs" have drifted further from each other, and are now more likely to be at odds with each other rather than just mildly different perspectives, or mildly shuffled values.

I don't think the core beliefs have really changed much.  The recent polarization (the parties not getting along) has had an impact on each sides opinion of the other side even though the actual beliefs haven't changed much. 

[neo von retorch]

All of this was true before the polarization which means those "core beliefs" have drifted further from each other, and are now more likely to be at odds with each other rather than just mildly different perspectives, or mildly shuffled values.

I don't think the core beliefs have really changed much.  The recent polarization (the parties not getting along) has had an impact on each sides opinion of the other side even though the actual beliefs haven't changed much.

I think I disagree. Maybe the simple labels of those beliefs are roughly the same, but how many people pushed towards the edges has increased, and the degree people believe things has increased.
https://www.people-press.org/interactives/political-polarization-1994-2017/

https://28oa9i1t08037ue3m1l0i861-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/overlap-1-750x523.png
(Data from https://ballotpedia.org/National_Journal_vote_ratings )

[Chris Pascale]

I've yet to come across a fact based, reasoned argument to support Donald Trump as the president. 

Mike Pence.

Thanks for your input.


Still waiting for a fact based, reasoned argument to support Donald Trump as the president.

I have nothing else. Just that an experienced governor would be President.

There's a funny video of a young woman interviewing people about the impeachment, and how great it is. They all agree, and then she starts cheering for President Pence, and the people previously so happy with the impeachment don't look too thrilled.

@talltexan

[Chris Pascale]

As a conservative in the outskirts of the Bible belt I mostly hear from people who think "They" (liberals) are unreasonable and don't have good intentions and/or reasons for their beliefs.  In this forum, the dynamic is switched and it's mostly people who think "They" (conservatives) don't have good intentions and/or reasons for their beliefs. 

I have one conservative and one liberal friend on facebook who CONSTANTLY post things blasting the other side.  In most cases, they have no chance of changing anyone's mind and are divisive.  It's pointless and annoying from both sides. 

In reality, I believe most of the people on both sides mean well and really want what is best for others.  They vote in elections for the option that lines up the most with what they believe will help out the country and the people in it.  There are assumptions or core beliefs on both sides and if you believe the basic assumptions then the logical arguments from there make sense.

Agreed about people being sincere in their beliefs. This is why I like Dave Rubin, Ben Shapiro (only the interviews - I find his news show to be boring), and Joe Rogan. I don't subscribe to their podcasts, but listen to them here and there, and find they are seeking information, and looking to grow.

For example, Rubin changed his positions on a few race issues after 2 interviews with Larry Elder. Rogan used to think UBI was a really dumb idea. Shapiro now supports gay marriage.

[js82]

From my experience it's much more likely for someone to have either:

1) The "you're X, I don't want to talk to you" perspective, or
2) Copious quantities of ignorance

...when said individual belongs to a belief group that is an overwhelming majority in their area.  This is the product of both information siloing that comes from having limited interactions with those with opposing beliefs, and the privilege that comes from having enough like-minded people to associate with that one doesn't need to interact regularly with others who have opposing beliefs, if one does not want to.

There are no shortage of exceptions to this, of course, but there are plenty of people who choose their paths not because they've carefully considered it, but because it's the path of least resistance.

[John Galt incarnate!]

I know it’s hard to even conceive in these narcissistic times, but you know who is usually the source of the problem? Who’s the fool, the ingrate, the one who has his facts wrong?

It’s usually me.

You may be wrong.

^

This message is on a  sign on the wall behind my desk.

"You" refers to me.