religion vs spirituality

[scrubbyfish]

Do you differentiate these?
If so, how? i.e., Where is the line for you?

Do you seek out one, the other, both? Why?
Do you avoid one, the other, both? Why?

[RetiredAt63]

Religion is organized, spirituality is personal.  Spirituality can be practiced as an individual or as part of a group (i.e. organized i.e. religion).

I've drifted away from religion (it is intellectually difficult being Christian when the only parthenogenetic births you know of happen in fish and various invertebrates, and if mammals did have parthenogenesis the offspring would be female).  Spirituality (to whatever extent) is basically part of how a person experiences life.

JMHO.

[Sailor Sam]

This thread will be interesting! To me, religion seems to be focused on a God figure. Spirituality seems to be focused on the experience of being human, a la David at Raptitude.com.

I was raised Catholic, and I enjoy the rituals of High Mass. I'm also gay, so I harbor a bit of angst towards the earthly side of the Church, and take the dogma's with a grain of salt. I also like the spiritual message to be observant, and live in the moment. I've found the practice to be very helpful in toning down anxiety.

[southern granny]

My religion is Christian.  My spirituality is the way I allow my religion to affect my life.  The closer to God that I get, the more spiritual I feel.  I have been a Christian since childhood, but I have become more spiritual in the last few years when I started attending church regularly and attending bible study. 

[Curbside Prophet]

Religion is man made.  Spirituality is a connection or at least acknowledgement of something greater than one's self.

[Shane]

Religion is dogmatic. There are rules, physical buildings, a hierarchy of church officials who tell the believers what they can and cannot do. Spirituality, on the other hand, is individual and free. There are no rules. Each person gets to create her own belief system based on her own values and internal moral compass.

Religion sucks. Spirituality rocks! :)

[Pigeon]

I'm immune to both.  I loathe rituals, don't believe in the supernatural and have no idea what spirituality even means. 

[Cyaphas]

I can't remember the exact quote, I'd appreciate if someone might mention it, but it goes something along the lines of "God exists in the ever shrinking darkness of the unknown."

Religion is the worst kind of tribalism. It's constantly manipulated by men with motives and the rules can change anytime a 'holy' man has an epiphany. Many are given unquestioned absolute authority and like all absolute authority, corruption will follow.

"Gott mit uns!"

A battle cry that's been heard for millennia.

I dislike how spirituality has almost become an excuse for ignorance. It's so ridiculously unspecific. I think it's something many have come to use as a shield for their ignorance or a lazy way to escape zealot's wrath.

I'd like to think true spirituality is the optimism of what we'll find next in the unknown. Possibly the humble feeling of the statistics of our unlikely existence? Maybe the sad feeling I get trying to imagine what it would be like if there were truly nothing? To stand on a planet so large, diverse and wonderous and know that it is but a grain of sand in the universe? To live in a world soaked in opulence and drowning in luxury and realize the forgotten lives that were and are sacrificed to give it to us? I think spirituality is the humble child birthed from the the mature parents of knowledge and experience.

I feel it's really petty when someone pulls some Ferngully 'can't you feel it's pain' talk or suggests some ridiculous remedy instead of just taking anti-biotics. I was told Steve Jobs would've easily been treated for his cancer and survived had he not relied on his own arrogance and 'spirituality.'

Spirituality finds you in moments of awe and humble.

Some humor:

[HappierAtHome]

I'm immune to both.  I loathe rituals, don't believe in the supernatural and have no idea what spirituality even means.

Yeah, me too. It's not popular to say you aren't 'into' spirituality though or that you don't know what it really means - describing yourself as a "spiritual person" seems to be a bit of a fad right now. I've started asking people what they mean by it and no one's been able to give me a decent answer ("well I'm really into yoga" was honestly the least silly one I've had so far, most have been far more ridiculous), certainly nothing as articulate and thoughtful as the answers people are giving on this thread. Should've known to ask mustachians instead of workmates and family members!

The best explanation I've had so far was from a health professional who was discussing how humans find meaning in their lives. She explained that what other people call "spirituality" can be translated as "living a mindful, values-based life" for people like me who are inclined towards the rational and logical.

So if by "spiritual" you mean "living a mindful, values-based life", I can confirm for you scrubbyfish that I do identify as someone who does my best to live a mindful, values-based life. The beautiful thing about that, of course, is that everyone's values are different so no one is 'wrong' in that framework.

[Pigeon]

Mindful is another word that sets my teeth on edge.

I think we are biological organisms, like slime molds, bed bugs and dolphins.  we're born, we live, we die.  Circle of life and all that.  We just happen to have a highly developed CNS that allows us to do human things.  I'd like to leave the world a better place for present and future generations and generally think the golden rule is a good guideline for living.  I don't think there's any deeper meaning or higher power or anything vaguely like that.

[HappierAtHome]

Mindful is another word that sets my teeth on edge.

I think we are biological organisms, like slime molds, bed bugs and dolphins.  we're born, we live, we die.  Circle of life and all that.  We just happen to have a highly developed CNS that allows us to do human things.  I'd like to leave the world a better place for present and future generations and generally think the golden rule is a good guideline for living.  I don't think there's any deeper meaning or higher power or anything vaguely like that.

If I'd said 'deliberate' instead, or 'intentional', would that have bothered you as much as mindful? What I'm asking is: is it just the faddiness of the word that upsets you, or the actual concept of humans attempting to be intentional and deliberate about how they live and how they experience the world? Fascinating to me because mindful doesn't bother me at all.

[scrubbyfish]

Thanks, everyone!

I'm intrigued that some people (not necessarily anyone who's responded here) don't differentiate spirituality from religion, viewing them as one and the same. That prompted me to explore it here, discover what's shakin' in different people.

So if by "spiritual" you mean "living a mindful, values-based life", I can confirm for you scrubbyfish that...

I don't even have a set idea of what "spiritual" means. I think it's profoundly personal, unique to each person that experiences it, and self-defined.

My own experience of it, or delineation for me, is is very much like the following:

Religion is man made.  Spirituality is a connection [with] something greater than one's self.

...and in my mind, that Something is whatever it is—the universe, a person-like being, etc—defined differently for each person. Some friends refer to their time in nature as "church". I get that. I'm pretty sure they and I are having pretty similar experiences out there in the woods, and they and I define it as a spiritual experience. Beyond joy, beyond contentment, beyond appreciation. A whole other layer/element/experience. Transcendent. Other-worldly.

and:

Religion is dogmatic. There are rules, physical buildings, a hierarchy of church officials who tell the believers what they can and cannot do. Spirituality, on the other hand, is individual and free. There are no rules. Each person gets to create her own belief system based on her own values and internal moral compass.

Those are the differences for me. Night and day, chalk and cheese.

I've been part of religions at some points in my life, but didn't really experience myself as "religious" which is, I guess, why I left those and landed where I've landed: as the dating websites put it "spiritual but not religious." However, after a long allergic period, I now feel very comfortable visiting most religious spaces and activities. I like hearing a group's language, witnessing what they feel helps them connect, etc. I find it fascinating and (usually) beautiful. I'm happy witnessing it, and even happier knowing I don't need to take it on.

[Kris]

Religion is focused on adhering to an institution.

This does not interest me.

"Spirituality" seems to me a word designed to convey a lofty meaning to whatever credo (coherent or incoherent) a person decides to ascribe to, and tie it haphazardly to a deity or spirit of their choice.

Personally, I find both fairly absurd. I do have moments of exaltation from simply being alive. Because being alive can be fucking fantastic, if you are paying attention.

But these labels make a mockery of those intensely personal moments. I just can't see what the point of identifying yourself as "religious" or "spiritual" is. Live your life. Try to pay attention. Recognize you don't have that much time.

[deborah]

Well, I have a different take.

Many years ago I did a time management course that divided your time between work, learning, physical, social, family and spiritual. I think this is a good way of breaking life down, and have used it ever since - even since retirement, as they included retirement in "work". Spiritual included private, family and congregational - and I have always thought of religion as a subset of our spirituality. The course encouraged you to think about the different sectors at the end of each day, and see whether you had engaged in a bit of each, and ultimately to check whether your sectors were in balance (according to you). Looking at the holistic human rather than just trying to make sure you had been as productive at your job as possible.

There are times when each of us ponder where we wish to end up in life and what our goals are.There are times when we just want to sit and enjoy the beauty of nature or the wonder of our own life. We don't have to be meditating or engaging in mindfulness or chanting rosaries - which may be considered as more spiritual by some - but some of these simple inner reviews and connecting with our surroundings are (I think) essential parts of living a good life.

[scrubbyfish]

I just can't see what the point of identifying yourself as "religious" or "spiritual" is.

I can (for me).

I've found that including the word spiritual in describing myself, people have a reasonable sense to expect stuff in that realm from me. People annoyed by it are able to make a quick exit, as on the dating site example (or my older sister). The flip and positive side is that the word spiritual helps me find other people with similar takes and experiences, and it's really nice to find likeminded people.

I have a lot of acquaintances that identify as "not religious, not spiritual", laugh derisively at both orientations, etc. I've found it doesn't fit for me to date people that do so, because too big a chunk of me isn't shared or understood then.

I think language can be useful. To me, avoiding a word like spiritual (or religious) would be akin to refusing to use the word hazel or tomato or woman or musician. None of them do an entire experience justice, but personally, I like chatting with people and I'll take what we can get :)

[Anatidae V]

I was brought up spiritual, but not religious. To me, that means I was taught what a spiritual experience was and given the tools to identify and find my own. I was not brought up with a specific set of beliefs.

I identify as a "spiritual" person in the same way that I identify as a "creative" person - that is, it's a label I use when I need to use a short-hand, even though I believe everyone is spiritual and everyone is creative. Religion is about organising a community around a set of beliefs, most people will believe most things on that set of beliefs, and most will interpret in the same way. They may have a spiritual experience during their religious rituals, but they may not.

Spiritual experiences are, for me, the feeling of losing the boundary between "me" and "everything else", of feeling bigger or smaller than I am, of feeling I'm part of something bigger. No deity required, no actual thing bigger than me has to exist except the universe just continuing to be. No specific beliefs at all, it's all about the feeling. It's probably a brain thing. If I make time for it, it seems to have a positive impact on how I interact with others. It is not about rejecting science or medicine.

[scrubbyfish]

WOW, anatidaev! You put into words my experience and take, very thoroughly. I've never seen them put that way. THANK YOU for that present!

[Kris]

I just can't see what the point of identifying yourself as "religious" or "spiritual" is.

I can (for me).

I've found that including the word spiritual in describing myself, people have a reasonable sense to expect stuff in that realm from me. People annoyed by it are able to make a quick exit, as on the dating site example (or my older sister). The flip and positive side is that the word spiritual helps me find other people with similar takes and experiences, and it's really nice to find likeminded people.

I have a lot of acquaintances that identify as "not religious, not spiritual", laugh derisively at both orientations, etc. I've found it doesn't fit for me to date people that do so, because too big a chunk of me isn't shared or understood then.

I think language can be useful. To me, avoiding a word like spiritual (or religious) would be akin to refusing to use the word hazel or tomato or woman or musician. None of them do an entire experience justice, but personally, I like chatting with people and I'll take what we can get :)

Interesting point. Thanks!

[zoltani]

I'm immune to both.  I loathe rituals, don't believe in the supernatural and have no idea what spirituality even means.

How can you possibly not believe in the supernatural? Do you breathe? Do you control your breath, your heartbeat? Who does?

Did you grow yourself in your mother's womb?

The universe itself is supernatural, are you saying you do not believe in the universe? Therefore you do not believe in existence? We are the universe, there is no separation.

[scrubbyfish]

How can you possibly not believe in the supernatural? Do you breathe? Do you control your breath, your heartbeat? Who does?

Did you grow yourself in your mother's womb?

The universe itself is supernatural, are you saying you do not believe in the universe? Therefore you do not believe in existence? We are the universe, there is no separation.

If possible, it would be great if we can keep this thread to the original topic rather than a debate about what exists, who's right, etc.

That could be a perfectly good other thread, though! Would you be willing to create that thread, zoltani? Feel free to pop a link to it in here, so that anyone interested in that topic can hop on over :)

[zoltani]

Ok, I guess I saw it as on topic because to me spirituality, the supernatural, the universe, and us are all one. I will think about starting a thread about this.

[RetiredAt63]

Ok, I guess I saw it as on topic because to me spirituality, the supernatural, the universe, and us are all one. I will think about starting a thread about this.

Interesting how the same words can evoke different thoughts and feelings in different people.  For me the supernatural (at least in its general use these days) fits into the "which one of these is different from the others?" category. 

[Sailor Sam]

Ok, I guess I saw it as on topic because to me spirituality, the supernatural, the universe, and us are all one. I will think about starting a thread about this.

Interesting how the same words can evoke different thoughts and feelings in different people.  For me the supernatural (at least in its general use these days) fits into the "which one of these is different from the others?" category.

Sorry, not following, and I want to understand. You mean that (to you) religion and spiritually are similar, and supernatural is markedly different enough to fall outside the different continuum of religion/spirituality?

[wenchsenior]

I'm immune to both.  I loathe rituals, don't believe in the supernatural and have no idea what spirituality even means.

How can you possibly not believe in the supernatural? Do you breathe? Do you control your breath, your heartbeat? Who does?

Did you grow yourself in your mother's womb?

The universe itself is supernatural, are you saying you do not believe in the universe? Therefore you do not believe in existence? We are the universe, there is no separation.

No. By definition, nature is natural. Supernatural means to exist outside of natural physical laws. Unless you are using 'supernatural' metaphorically?

[Classical_Liberal]

Great topic & comments!

Religion is an institution, like government.  Inside of the institution there are some variations of opinion and some hard & fast, resolute rules everyone must obey.  If the religion, or gov't, lasts long enough these rules may change with time and culture.  There are generalized norms and fringe elements which are generally frowned upon by the majority (LDS and Libertarians anyone?).

Spirituality is personal, like how an individual chooses to live inside his/her own home.  There are few, if any, steadfast rules to be obeyed. Some home lives are bland and vanilla, some are wild and eclectic. Each individual's home and life within reflects how they experience, perceive, and interact with the world outside.

Discussions like these remind me of the movie Contact (sorry never read the book), there is a scene after Jodi Foster and Matthew Mcconaughey hook up at arecibo.  McConaughey tries to explain a profound spiritual experience he had to the ever rational scientist Foster... you can see, for a moment, she just about gets his point of view.

[arebelspy]

Hope I have some popcorn available for when sol rips into this thread.

I'm immune to both.  I loathe rituals, don't believe in the supernatural and have no idea what spirituality even means.

How can you possibly not believe in the supernatural? Do you breathe? Do you control your breath, your heartbeat? Who does?

Did you grow yourself in your mother's womb?

The universe itself is supernatural, are you saying you do not believe in the universe? Therefore you do not believe in existence? We are the universe, there is no separation.

I don't understand how any of those things are supernatural.  They all seem very natural, to me.


I used to avoid people who described themselves as spiritual.  Now I'm more accepting of it.  Not that I have a problem with them being spiritual, just the type of people who tend to self-identify that way, and not just self-identify, but go out of their way to tell you about it, in my experience, tend to have many negative traits that I don't care for (to name one that seems common, and hopefully isn't too harsh: flighty).

I think the only difference between someone thinks of themselves as spiritual, or someone who does not, is just a language misunderstanding.  They're the same.

[Anatidae V]

Hope I have some popcorn available for when sol rips into this thread.

I'm immune to both.  I loathe rituals, don't believe in the supernatural and have no idea what spirituality even means.

How can you possibly not believe in the supernatural? Do you breathe? Do you control your breath, your heartbeat? Who does?

Did you grow yourself in your mother's womb?

The universe itself is supernatural, are you saying you do not believe in the universe? Therefore you do not believe in existence? We are the universe, there is no separation.

I don't understand how any of those things are supernatural.  They all seem very natural, to me.


I used to avoid people who described themselves as spiritual.  Now I'm more accepting of it.  Not that I have a problem with them being spiritual, just the type of people who tend to self-identify that way, and not just self-identify, but go out of their way to tell you about it, in my experience, tend to have many negative traits that I don't care for (to name one that seems common, and hopefully isn't too harsh: flighty).

I think the only difference between someone thinks of themselves as spiritual, or someone who does not, is just a language misunderstanding.  They're the same.

I'll get there kernels and butter out...

And I agree, those things seem natural, not "supernatural". Also that those who go out of their way to identify as spiritual often (not always) seem a little less grounded than others. But I seem to find that with more people who go out of their way to identify as anything, not just spiritual. Interestingly, I think I've found myself becoming more atheist as I grow older and appreciate the wonder of nature/science as we know thus far.

[arebelspy]

Interestingly, I think I've found myself becoming more atheist as I grow older and appreciate the wonder of nature/science as we know thus far.

Beautiful.  Reminds me of two quotes.

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams

"The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides." - Carl Sagan

[RetiredAt63]

Ok, I guess I saw it as on topic because to me spirituality, the supernatural, the universe, and us are all one. I will think about starting a thread about this.

Interesting how the same words can evoke different thoughts and feelings in different people.  For me the supernatural (at least in its general use these days) fits into the "which one of these is different from the others?" category.

Sorry, not following, and I want to understand. You mean that (to you) religion and spiritually are similar, and supernatural is markedly different enough to fall outside the different continuum of religion/spirituality?

Mostly answered below, but - supernatural is a null word for me in the real world (as opposed to fantasy fiction) - everything is natural.  Everything from a star going nova to a bacterium in lake sediment.  I was first responder, and for me religion is organized and imposed, and spirituality (however much or little any one person is experiencing at some point in time) is internal.

Sorry if this is not a clear explanation, it is not something I often need to put into words.

[pbkmaine]

Spiritual experiences are, for me, the feeling of losing the boundary between "me" and "everything else", of feeling bigger or smaller than I am, of feeling I'm part of something bigger. No deity required, no actual thing bigger than me has to exist except the universe just continuing to be. No specific beliefs at all, it's all about the feeling. It's probably a brain thing. If I make time for it, it seems to have a positive impact on how I interact with others. It is not about rejecting science or medicine.

Yes. Music does this for me.

[scrubbyfish]

Interestingly, I think I've found myself becoming more atheist as I grow older and appreciate the wonder of nature/science as we know thus far.

This is interesting to me, as in my mind a person can be spiritual and an atheist at the same time. An atheist only lacks belief in gods, or holds a belief that there is no god. Believing in a being called God is only one of many possible manifestations of spiritual; spirituality does not necessarily have one believing there is a deity.

...the type of people who tend to self-identify that way, and not just self-identify, but go out of their way to tell you about it, in my experience, tend to have many negative traits that I don't care for (to name one that seems common, and hopefully isn't too harsh: flighty).

I would be uncomfortable assuming one word means another, i.e., that spiritual means one is probably flighty. Many of the most grounded, methodical, logical, sound people I know—including many scientist friends and colleagues—identify as spiritual, and plenty that identify as nonspiritual are none of the above. That is, I haven't seen a correlation in that example. I can't think of any correlations, so when someone identifies as spiritual, that is the only element I anticipate seeing (and even then I know it can manifest alongside countless other traits.) Happily for me, I enjoy traits ranging from flighty to grounded.

...I seem to find that with more people who go out of their way to identify as anything, not just spiritual.

Love this :)   It matches my experience.

The problematic (to me so far) trait is of going out of one's way to identify as anything. That sort of "in your faceness." I just don't enjoy overbearing people who think they're the most right or awesome, or who think their way is the best. Whether they pin that zealousness on their being a physician, an educator, Trump, etc, no matter. My kid's school staff—truly religious in their Holy Schooly Beliefness—come across this way to me. They "just know" everything that is true and right "for everyone"; it's exhausting. Some of the atheists I know do the same.

There's a difference between me knowing I have hazel eyes and being willing to acknowledge it, and marching about ensuring everyone I meet knows, is never mistaking them for brown or green, knows my personal genetic history of them, etc.

[SimplyMarvie]

So, I'm religious and I converted into it after being raised as a happy atheist/agnostic my entire life.

For me, spirituality is my experience of the numinous. It's not gendered, or attached to any particular type of experience; it's the things that have happened in my life that make me know that there is a force more powerful than myself involved in the Universe. It's particle physics and my dad dying and strange coincidences and seeing my babies for the first time and love.

Religion is the way I have chosen to interact with the numinous. I'm Jewish, so it's a set of Jewish rituals -- those of Judaism as a whole, but also the particular post-denominational Sephardic-influenced community I belong with, and the history and the music and the food and the family traditions that we have that I feel connect me to that community and to God. One of the things I like about Judaism is that it's more orthoprax than orthodox -- that is, it cares less what I personally believe than what I do with that belief. I do believe that God is one, but I believe that in a slightly unorthodox way; that all religions are a path to that single numinous thing, rather than that there is only one 'real' god (which isn't a very Jewish outlook anyway) or that there are others but I oughtn't worship those ones. So a belief in a single un-named, un-knowable God allows for a certain amount of Spirituality, too.

Often, I am lucky enough to have experiences that are both spiritual and religious -- lighting candles for Shabbat after particularly horrible weeks, hearing the sofar, etc. But I also sometimes have experiences that are purely spiritual and have nothing to do with religion -- Climbing a mountain, the feeling of the wind in my hair, seeing someone I love after missing them a long time. There's room for both, for me. And that's important.

[scrubbyfish]

(Oh my goodness. I've only just met SimplyMarvie. Is it too soon to tell him or her that I have a crush on them as of this post?!?!)

[arebelspy]

I would be uncomfortable assuming one word means another

That's not what I said at all.  I wouldn't assume that at all.

[FIRE me]

I'm immune to both.  I loathe rituals, don't believe in the supernatural and have no idea what spirituality even means.

How can you possibly not believe in the supernatural? Do you breathe? Do you control your breath, your heartbeat? Who does?

Did you grow yourself in your mother's womb?

The universe itself is supernatural, are you saying you do not believe in the universe? Therefore you do not believe in existence? We are the universe, there is no separation.

No. By definition, nature is natural. Supernatural means to exist outside of natural physical laws. Unless you are using 'supernatural' metaphorically?

I too had the feeling that perhaps zoltani doesn't understand the definition of “supernatural”. Or perhaps he / she is very very religious, and cannot imagine a person who simply does not believe in anything supernatural.

[mrpercentage]

Okay for me:

Religion is a formed guideline that you must agree with. Thats why I don't do it. Yet I am a believer. I watch Joel Osteen. I challenge anyone to listen to his podcast on 7/3/16 "the king is looking for you" and tell me that is religion. It has all the love of Christ with none of the judgement. Relationship with God and religion are two different things for me.

Spirituality seems to be a mindful self improvement/awareness/appreciation practice to me. It usually seems focused on similarities not differences and highlights a PMA in practice. Awareness of ones place and appreciation of the universe AKA Carl Sagan. Joel kind of does this. One of the many reasons I love Joel. And for the record: Carl Sagan is my personal saint

if you wonder why just watch a little of this: https://youtu.be/Pc1NatQKSP0?t=3m10s

"We are made of star stuff. We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself." --- I really wish I could have shook your hand Carl

[deborah]

Well, there are plenty of us around who don't believe in the supernatural.

[scrubbyfish]

That's not what I said at all.  I wouldn't assume that at all.

Sorry for my poor communication, ARS.

It's true... you did not say you would or do assume that.

Me neither :)

Okay for me:

Thanks, mrpercentage. Your sincerity comes through beautifully.

I notice I right away react adversely to a name and to a link—interesting to note my cringe/reactivity! I don't even know those references yet!—but you seem lovely so I am indeed going to check those out at some point :)

[GuitarStv]

The two terms are so closely related that it's hard for me to separate them.  Religion is what happens when you try to share spirituality.

[mrpercentage]

Well, there are plenty of us around who don't believe in the supernatural.

Define supernatural.

I find it absolutely fascinating that the Earth is alive. How could a non-living thing like a rock produce life? The answer might be that the rock itself is alive and carries the properties of life. As Alan Watts would say: "As the apple tree apples, the Earth peoples."

There are plenty of super things about the natural world. There are plenty of things beyond our senses from radiation and spectrums of light to gravity and magnetism. Why must God be shoehorned into Gandalf sitting on a cloud?

That anyone could miss the majesty, wonder, and magic in the world is totally beyond my understanding. You are standing on the side of a sphere being thrown through space at insane speed while its spinning and you get to enjoy ice-cream while you do it. Pretty awesome to me. I suppose we could be meaningless chemistry on a spec in space on its way to entropy meaning and signifying nothing. But that view seems to lack the appreciation of the gift.

[Tyson]

I'm with Spinoza - god didn't create the universe, god IS the universe.  I was an atheist for a long time but I've had some experiences later in life that shifted me away from that.  I would say I'm a spiritual person because I do believe in god, but I don't go to church and I am not a Christian or Jewish or Muslim or any other thing like that. 

[GoConfidently]

Okay for me:

Religion is a formed guideline that you must agree with. Thats why I don't do it. Yet I am a believer. I watch Joel Osteen. I challenge anyone to listen to his podcast on 7/3/16 "the king is looking for you" and tell me that is religion. It has all the love of Christ with none of the judgement. Relationship with God and religion are two different things for me.

Osteen's prosperity gospel is neither spiritual or religious. It is business at best and extortion at worst. It's people like Osteen that have ensured that I will never be religious after being raised in a very devout family. I've seen too much corruption and greed and human failing in religion. I don't like the word spiritual either  because the word spirit is too often used in a religious way and implies something like a soul to many people. I am cognizant of my place in the universe, of my responsibility toward my fellow humans and the environment, and the fleeting nature of my life. I guess I would describe it as striving to live an ethical life, rather than a spiritual one.

[mrpercentage]

Okay for me:

Religion is a formed guideline that you must agree with. Thats why I don't do it. Yet I am a believer. I watch Joel Osteen. I challenge anyone to listen to his podcast on 7/3/16 "the king is looking for you" and tell me that is religion. It has all the love of Christ with none of the judgement. Relationship with God and religion are two different things for me.

Osteen's prosperity gospel is neither spiritual or religious. It is business at best and extortion at worst. It's people like Osteen that have ensured that I will never be religious after being raised in a very devout family. I've seen too much corruption and greed and human failing in religion. I don't like the word spiritual either  because the word spirit is too often used in a religious way and implies something like a soul to many people. I am cognizant of my place in the universe, of my responsibility toward my fellow humans and the environment, and the fleeting nature of my life. I guess I would describe it as striving to live an ethical life, rather than a spiritual one.

Blah, blah, blah, condemnation and judgement of others.. blah, blah, blah..  Happy 4th ;)

[GoConfidently]

Okay for me:

Religion is a formed guideline that you must agree with. Thats why I don't do it. Yet I am a believer. I watch Joel Osteen. I challenge anyone to listen to his podcast on 7/3/16 "the king is looking for you" and tell me that is religion. It has all the love of Christ with none of the judgement. Relationship with God and religion are two different things for me.

Osteen's prosperity gospel is neither spiritual or religious. It is business at best and extortion at worst. It's people like Osteen that have ensured that I will never be religious after being raised in a very devout family. I've seen too much corruption and greed and human failing in religion. I don't like the word spiritual either  because the word spirit is too often used in a religious way and implies something like a soul to many people. I am cognizant of my place in the universe, of my responsibility toward my fellow humans and the environment, and the fleeting nature of my life. I guess I would describe it as striving to live an ethical life, rather than a spiritual one.

Blah, blah, blah, condemnation and judgement of others.. blah, blah, blah..  Happy 4th ;)

Sensitive much? I didn't judge or condemn you. I criticized Osteen. Maybe you shouldn't challenge people to listen to the religious podcasts you enjoy if you can't handle it when people don't agree with you ;)

[scrubbyfish]

I'm disappointed/sad the thread is going off into the realms of right/wrong/true/untrue/reactivity/is/is not/etc.

Someone on the forum once insisted to me that the moment after we start a thread, we have no right to ask it to stay focused.

...but if we can, that will be awesome! So much good stuff here, without dismissing, reacting, proselytizing, etc.

But, if it disintegrates into debate, so be it :)

I am super grateful to all of you for responding to those initial inquiries I set out. Those are important questions to me, and your contributions to them have been delightful, fascinating, eye-opening. Thanks!!

[englyn]

anatidaev, that was amazing.
I'm going to steal your definition, because I never had one for spirituality, and I like yours. Right down to that it's one facet of (probably) everyone and overemphasis on it as an identity is a bit ... um... [insert adjective here that indicates a sign that the person and I are probably not going to be close friends].
My spiritual experiences have mostly involved singing or waterfalls.

[RetiredAt63]

My spiritual experiences have mostly involved singing or waterfalls.

And looking at fireflies and the stars.

I find being surrounded by a living ecosystem brings me closer to the whole biosphere  than being in cities does - I need the contact with plants and animals (including the really small ones).  I guess that is my "spirituality", feeling part of a greater living whole.  Being a biologist may or may not help, but knowing intellectually that I am a member of an odd invasive species in an odd Order (primates are weird mammals) may help emotionally feeling that as a member of my species I am/we are nothing special, living-organism wise.

[wenchsenior]

My spiritual experiences have mostly involved singing or waterfalls.

And looking at fireflies and the stars.

I find being surrounded by a living ecosystem brings me closer to the whole biosphere  than being in cities does - I need the contact with plants and animals (including the really small ones).  I guess that is my "spirituality", feeling part of a greater living whole.  Being a biologist may or may not help, but knowing intellectually that I am a member of an odd invasive species in an odd Order (primates are weird mammals) may help emotionally feeling that as a member of my species I am/we are nothing special, living-organism wise.

This is likely one of the biggest factors that repels me from most organized religions, and from deity-centered religions in general. (This is setting aside the fact that there is no objective evidence of the supernatural, nor do I relate to the idea that the supernatural, were it to exist, would be somehow superior to the natural.)

It seems like many religious people just have this deep-seated need to believe there's something/someone that thinks they are special and important, looks upon them apart as god's chosen creation, or some force that creates meaning out of randomness and chaos, etc. Objectively, I understand how individuals could benefit from telling themselves that or feeling that. I certainly could, under certain circumstances. And I realize it's just likely wired into our brains, as part of our evolutionary adaptations for socialization/conditioning as a kid to need rules, parents/authority figures, pattern recognition, desire for order and predictability, etc.  But I still find it intensely creepy and have since I was a kid. And, needless to say, destructive to the biosphere.

[Shane]

It amazes me that in 2016 people can still actually believe that their particular religion, sometimes even their particular church and pastor, are the only ones on the planet who have everything figured out and are going to heaven. Everybody else is going to hell. Really? Maybe 500 years ago when people still lived in isolated communities where they could go their whole lives without seeing anyone from outside, I guess I could understand that type of thinking, but now, in 2016?

[SimplyMarvie]

(Oh my goodness. I've only just met SimplyMarvie. Is it too soon to tell him or her that I have a crush on them as of this post?!?!)

Never too soon. :)