Author Topic: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License  (Read 2207 times)

slackmax

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Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« on: April 13, 2019, 08:14:13 AM »
I'm in Pa which has held out til the last minute to insist we all get the Gold Star drivers licenses. (Actually, you can still get the old style license without all the docs, but then you supposedly won't be allowed to fly anywhere, unless you show a passport)

I'm OK with all the documents required, but I'm a bit leery of having my photograph stored in a database that can be used for facial recognition.

Apparently the states are required to take a digital photograph that is stored and is compatible with facial recognition software. Just google it, there are lots of websites saying this. I used Snopes.com  on it and got a huge boatload of unintelligible crap. 

The Big Brother aspect of the Real Id was the reason Pa dragged its feet on this.

Of course the Pa website for the DMV says absolutely nothing about facial recognition since that might cause them friction with the public. 

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, right?  Just wear a pair of sunglasses if I don't want to be tracked, lol ???

Anyone else out there in Mustachianland care about the facial recognition aspect of Real Id?

And please, no tin foil jokes, lol. 


 

« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 08:16:38 AM by slackmax »

katsiki

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2019, 09:03:36 AM »
I didn't do real id on my last renewal.  It was mainly out of convenience of renewal but I am skeptical of the big database a bit.

maizeman

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2019, 09:24:29 AM »
I think my current license is realid compatible. Have to get into federal buildings fairly regularly.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the photos from licenses are going into a database somewhere and that database is being mined for facial recognition. I'm not thrilled about that, but worrying about it also seems like the situation the cliche "closing the stable door after the horse has bolted" was meant to describe.

Are you on facebook? If you're not on facebook, have you never been on facebook? If you've never been on facebook are you confident that no one you know has ever tagged you in one of the photos they posted where your face appeared? If the answers to these three questions aren't no, no, and yes respectively, then there is already a much more comprehensive database that is already being regularly mined for facial identification that can connect your face with your identity.

Similarly, while it is less common today, anyone who patronizes one of amazon's new no-cashier stores: when you swipe in, they're connecting your online identity to your face, and then using your face to track you around the store and track what you pick up so that they can bill you. And it's not like they're going to throw away their much-more-up-to-date pairing of "this identity" and "this face" after you leave.

So yes, I'd be nice if my face couldn't be immediately matched to my identity. But unfortunately there is really no way for me to prevent that, regardless of what drivers license I get.

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2019, 05:47:04 AM »
Sure, I would rather the government not have a facial recognition database of drivers' licenses. But, I have a passports and I've been in and out of the country using the digital kiosks; if there is a government digital facial recognition database I'm already in it and my DL will make no difference to that.

At least with the government we are supposed to have rights, laws, and courts to check its behavior. Those same checks do not always apply to private individuals and corporations. . . aggregate the my/other's social media presence, internet search history data,  online purchases, credit card spending records (lump in amazon pay and paypal here), phone geo location data, free email that is scanned (sometimes by machine, sometimes by humans) for consumer behavior data, youtube viewing history, online photo storage (often uploaded from phone) and the list goes on and on . . . all of that in one place is scary. 

Sibley

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2019, 12:35:51 PM »
Between social media, passports, and security cameras all over the place, what makes you think you're not already in a database?

scottish

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2019, 06:28:06 AM »
I think my current license is realid compatible. Have to get into federal buildings fairly regularly.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the photos from licenses are going into a database somewhere and that database is being mined for facial recognition. I'm not thrilled about that, but worrying about it also seems like the situation the cliche "closing the stable door after the horse has bolted" was meant to describe.

Are you on facebook? If you're not on facebook, have you never been on facebook? If you've never been on facebook are you confident that no one you know has ever tagged you in one of the photos they posted where your face appeared? If the answers to these three questions aren't no, no, and yes respectively, then there is already a much more comprehensive database that is already being regularly mined for facial identification that can connect your face with your identity.

Similarly, while it is less common today, anyone who patronizes one of amazon's new no-cashier stores: when you swipe in, they're connecting your online identity to your face, and then using your face to track you around the store and track what you pick up so that they can bill you. And it's not like they're going to throw away their much-more-up-to-date pairing of "this identity" and "this face" after you leave.

So yes, I'd be nice if my face couldn't be immediately matched to my identity. But unfortunately there is really no way for me to prevent that, regardless of what drivers license I get.

Thanks for this, I'd been wondering about that thing with Amazon...

Sailor Sam

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2019, 08:09:23 AM »
Between social media, passports, and security cameras all over the place, what makes you think you're not already in a database?

That was my question, OP. I do not have a Real ID. About 6 months ago, the CBP officer at ATL passport control told me to look at the camera, then said "Hello Sam! How was your trip?" All before I'd even handed my passport over.

It's highly likely that your face is already being used to ID you. Though, I can see resisting the Real ID as a symbolic statement of not simply rolling over.


ETA: I was actually pretty impressed at the facial recognition, once I got done being startled. I'd been awake for 36 hours, and I was 15 lbs lighter than my passport photo.

Maybe passport control in Amsterdam, along with the timing of my arrival in ATL functions as a high pass filter, but still. I was impressed.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 08:12:02 AM by Sailor Sam »

maizeman

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2019, 08:15:46 AM »
I have the two entirely separate reactions of "yikes, that's scary!" and "wow, that's cool!"

LifeHappens

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2019, 08:38:17 AM »
Between social media, passports, and security cameras all over the place, what makes you think you're not already in a database?

That was my question, OP. I do not have a Real ID. About 6 months ago, the CBP officer at ATL passport control told me to look at the camera, then said "Hello Sam! How was your trip?" All before I'd even handed my passport over.
The same thing happened to me at Customs in Johannesburg. I did have to take my glasses off.

slackmax

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2019, 05:18:16 AM »
Between social media, passports, and security cameras all over the place, what makes you think you're not already in a database?

That was my question, OP. I do not have a Real ID. About 6 months ago, the CBP officer at ATL passport control told me to look at the camera, then said "Hello Sam! How was your trip?" All before I'd even handed my passport over.

It's highly likely that your face is already being used to ID you. Though, I can see resisting the Real ID as a symbolic statement of not simply rolling over.


ETA: I was actually pretty impressed at the facial recognition, once I got done being startled. I'd been awake for 36 hours, and I was 15 lbs lighter than my passport photo.

Maybe passport control in Amsterdam, along with the timing of my arrival in ATL functions as a high pass filter, but still. I was impressed.

We may all be in databases already, yes. But is it 'legal' for governments to use these databases to track citizens? I've never knowingly signed anything giving permission to any government to track me. Of course it could have been in the fine print.

Real Id is just one more incrementalist cog in the tracking machine, IMO.

Any yes, it probably doesn't matter what's legal or not, right??  Governments will do what they want, it seems.     

TrudgingAlong

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2019, 06:12:27 PM »
As will private companies (and citizens on social media). Ultimately, Iíve come to reluctantly accept anytime I leave the house, someone might be recording me and using it in someway. I donít like it, but thatís life with technology.

ketchup

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2019, 07:18:59 PM »
Between social media, passports, and security cameras all over the place, what makes you think you're not already in a database?

That was my question, OP. I do not have a Real ID. About 6 months ago, the CBP officer at ATL passport control told me to look at the camera, then said "Hello Sam! How was your trip?" All before I'd even handed my passport over.

It's highly likely that your face is already being used to ID you. Though, I can see resisting the Real ID as a symbolic statement of not simply rolling over.


ETA: I was actually pretty impressed at the facial recognition, once I got done being startled. I'd been awake for 36 hours, and I was 15 lbs lighter than my passport photo.

Maybe passport control in Amsterdam, along with the timing of my arrival in ATL functions as a high pass filter, but still. I was impressed.
Bananas.  We are living in the future.  That's straight out of sci-fi like Gattaca or The Expanse.  But of course it is also scary as hell.

LifeHappens

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2019, 09:41:25 AM »
So did you read the one about the passenger and JetBlue's facial recognition boarding pass? https://www.iflscience.com/technology/this-conversation-should-terrify-you-viral-thread-about-airport-tech-is-creeping-out-the-internet/

Enigma

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2019, 09:56:57 AM »
So did you read the one about the passenger and JetBlue's facial recognition boarding pass? https://www.iflscience.com/technology/this-conversation-should-terrify-you-viral-thread-about-airport-tech-is-creeping-out-the-internet/

It is all fun and games until your ex puts you in one database that is replicated to all the other databases.  Technology is still changing rapidly.  Illegial immigration should start becoming a thing of the past.

PDXTabs

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2019, 09:12:25 AM »
Maybe I'm just being paranoid, right?  Just wear a pair of sunglasses if I don't want to be tracked, lol ???

I don't really mind if the Government has my biometrics for international travel, that's sort of the job that they are in. However, the EFF has been writing about how they are sharing this data with private industry: Skip the Surveillance By Opting Out of Face Recognition At Airports and basically not telling anyone. If you have a little extra money the EFF is a very worthy cause.

Also, RealID places an historically unprecedented burden on undocumented workers. You can argue that is right, okay, or necessary - but it is certainly new.

BlueMR2

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2019, 06:03:30 PM »
Late to this party here, but...  I figure we're already in so many databases that one more really isn't a big deal at this point.  That said, the extra effort of taking documents in *almost* kept me on Standard.  I don't fly commercial anymore, but I *do* sometimes go on base, so having a compliant license would save me carrying extra documents at those times.  So, ended up doing the compliant license last time around.

Interestingly, I was 30+ people back in the queue and from my seat could hear each and every person in front of me declare they just wanted the standard license...  So, only 3% ish with my tiny little sample set went for compliant.  Wonder what the national average really will be?  If it's that bad, how are the Feds going to handle all the extra paperwork all the non-compliants will generate when they try to do anything fed related?

katsiki

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2019, 06:38:52 PM »
Interestingly, I was 30+ people back in the queue and from my seat could hear each and every person in front of me declare they just wanted the standard license...  So, only 3% ish with my tiny little sample set went for compliant.  Wonder what the national average really will be?  If it's that bad, how are the Feds going to handle all the extra paperwork all the non-compliants will generate when they try to do anything fed related?

Do you know what the impact is if you don't, besides flying?  I'm curious.  I did standard last go around.  I do fly a bit but I will just bring my passport.  Not a big deal.  (Added bolding to your quote)


Kris

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2019, 06:53:03 AM »
Interestingly, I was 30+ people back in the queue and from my seat could hear each and every person in front of me declare they just wanted the standard license...  So, only 3% ish with my tiny little sample set went for compliant.  Wonder what the national average really will be?  If it's that bad, how are the Feds going to handle all the extra paperwork all the non-compliants will generate when they try to do anything fed related?

Do you know what the impact is if you don't, besides flying?  I'm curious.  I did standard last go around.  I do fly a bit but I will just bring my passport.  Not a big deal.  (Added bolding to your quote)

Me, too. I was missing one document for the fancy license last time around, so I just said screw it and went for the standard because I knew I had the passport to fall back on.

Iím not sure what the impact is on people besides flying, in the short term. Long-term, my guess is that the real ID will worm its way into our lives and end up being the default standard. Of course, poor people will once again be screwed by this. Less likely to have passports, more likely to be missing one or more of the documents necessary... less likely to have the time to mess around trying to track them down.

BlueMR2

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2019, 04:24:51 PM »
Flying commercial (private does not require it), entering federal buildings (other than for law enforcement or judicial purposes), and entering military bases is where Real ID commonly comes in to play.  If you have a passport that will substitute for flying commercial (I don't hardly know anyone that has one though).  IIRC federal buildings and military bases will allow birth certificate plus social security card as substitutes.  I'd have to dig around again.  Either way it was easier to haul the extra documents with me once to the DMV instead of each and every time I might need to enter a federal building or a military base.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2019, 06:22:33 PM »
Between social media, passports, and security cameras all over the place, what makes you think you're not already in a database?

That was my question, OP. I do not have a Real ID. About 6 months ago, the CBP officer at ATL passport control told me to look at the camera, then said "Hello Sam! How was your trip?" All before I'd even handed my passport over.

It's highly likely that your face is already being used to ID you. Though, I can see resisting the Real ID as a symbolic statement of not simply rolling over.


ETA: I was actually pretty impressed at the facial recognition, once I got done being startled. I'd been awake for 36 hours, and I was 15 lbs lighter than my passport photo.

Maybe passport control in Amsterdam, along with the timing of my arrival in ATL functions as a high pass filter, but still. I was impressed.
Flight manifests are shared with CBP by all airlines with flights to and from the US: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/us_restrictions/airspace/

Paul der Krake

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2019, 06:30:40 PM »
Interestingly, I was 30+ people back in the queue and from my seat could hear each and every person in front of me declare they just wanted the standard license...  So, only 3% ish with my tiny little sample set went for compliant.  Wonder what the national average really will be?  If it's that bad, how are the Feds going to handle all the extra paperwork all the non-compliants will generate when they try to do anything fed related?

Do you know what the impact is if you don't, besides flying?  I'm curious.  I did standard last go around.  I do fly a bit but I will just bring my passport.  Not a big deal.  (Added bolding to your quote)
Consider getting a passport card or a trusted traveler card instead. Losing your passport really sucks.
Full list of acceptable docs here:
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification

katsiki

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Re: Real Id Gold Star Drivers License
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2019, 09:19:25 PM »
Interestingly, I was 30+ people back in the queue and from my seat could hear each and every person in front of me declare they just wanted the standard license...  So, only 3% ish with my tiny little sample set went for compliant.  Wonder what the national average really will be?  If it's that bad, how are the Feds going to handle all the extra paperwork all the non-compliants will generate when they try to do anything fed related?

Do you know what the impact is if you don't, besides flying?  I'm curious.  I did standard last go around.  I do fly a bit but I will just bring my passport.  Not a big deal.  (Added bolding to your quote)
Consider getting a passport card or a trusted traveler card instead. Losing your passport really sucks.
Full list of acceptable docs here:
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification

Good point.  I didn't know these others worked for this purpose.

I am covered as I am sure many are here by this item from your list:

DHS trusted traveler cards (Global Entry, NEXUS, SENTRI, FAST)

In my case, Global Entry.