Author Topic: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic  (Read 17676 times)

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #100 on: November 18, 2016, 02:07:11 PM »
The whole premise of what I was stating is that the accusation of racist is over-used. You can say everytime some one disagrees with you or don't do something that overtly help the black population that they are racist. It begins to void the accusation.

Maybe so. Maybe Hillary! or BLM "thugs" or some of the other proverbial boogeymen on "The Left" have been crying wolf about racism. Maybe the accusation has been over-used.

But not by me. I call Trump and his supporters (and now his appointees) racist because they actually are.

scantee

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 582
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #101 on: November 18, 2016, 02:49:44 PM »
Quote
The whole premise of what I was stating is that the accusation of racist is over-used. You can say everytime some one disagrees with you or don't do something that overtly help the black population that they are racist. It begins to void the accusation.

Seriously dude, no liberal calls everyone who disagrees with them a racist and you know that.

The accusation is being used a lot currently because men who have openly espoused racially prejudiced views will now be at the highest forms of our government. That doesn't worry you, but it does worry a lot of people who think that having these people in power will likely have devastating consequences for non-whites. Calling out the racism of those in power is and will be an important way of holding them accountable to expectations and norms that dictate prejudice and violence against non-whites as unacceptable.

MrMoogle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Huntsville, AL
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #102 on: November 18, 2016, 03:39:04 PM »
The whole premise of what I was stating is that the accusation of racist is over-used. You can say everytime some one disagrees with you or don't do something that overtly help the black population that they are racist. It begins to void the accusation.

Maybe so. Maybe Hillary! or BLM "thugs" or some of the other proverbial boogeymen on "The Left" have been crying wolf about racism. Maybe the accusation has been over-used.

But not by me. I call Trump and his supporters (and now his appointees) racist because they actually are.
You can't think of one reason to support Trump other than being a racist?  That sounds pretty bigoted to me.  You are grouping 60m people into one category, based on one thing you disagree with.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8433
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #103 on: November 18, 2016, 04:14:59 PM »
You can't think of one reason to support Trump other than being a racist?  That sounds pretty bigoted to me.  You are grouping 60m people into one category, based on one thing you disagree with.

I can think of several reasons, but every single one of them requires thinking that overt racism is preferable to whatever else you think is more important.

For example, you could vote for Trump because you love the color orange, and think that it's okay for him to be a raging bigot as long as he's orange. 

Most of the rest of the reasons are just themselves racism, rather than just poor excuses for supporting racism.  But I acknowledge that some reasons could exist that are not racist reasons, and only require that you willfully accept the unrelated racism.

MrMoogle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Huntsville, AL
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #104 on: November 18, 2016, 04:18:32 PM »
You can't think of one reason to support Trump other than being a racist?  That sounds pretty bigoted to me.  You are grouping 60m people into one category, based on one thing you disagree with.

I can think of several reasons, but every single one of them requires thinking that overt racism is preferable to whatever else you think is more important.

For example, you could vote for Trump because you love the color orange, and think that it's okay for him to be a raging bigot as long as he's orange. 

Most of the rest of the reasons are just themselves racism, rather than just poor excuses for supporting racism.  But I acknowledge that some reasons could exist that are not racist reasons, and only require that you willfully accept the unrelated racism.
Can't even think of sexist reasons?  Like, I can't vote for Hillary because a woman would make a poor president?

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #105 on: November 18, 2016, 04:36:44 PM »
I could make the same argument about people who are pro-choice. I just choose to not call them murderous barbarians.

Nice try. More moral relativism and trying to change the subject, to boot!

You can't think of one reason to support Trump other than being a racist?  That sounds pretty bigoted to me.  You are grouping 60m people into one category, based on one thing you disagree with.

Bullshit strawman argument -- and proof you lack reading comprehension:

You can even argue for many of Trump's policies (to the extent he has them) without being a bigot! I know this because I have done all those things myself, on the pages of this forum!

It doesn't matter what Trump's policy positions are. It doesn't matter what good he claims to want to do -- or even what good he would actually do. Trump could faithfully follow Obama's agenda to the letter* and he would still deserve condemnation anyway! Bigotry and oppression is categorically unacceptable, singularly disqualifying, and must be opposed at all costs. Nothing whatsoever -- and by "nothing" I really mean literally nothing -- is important enough to "trump" it!

Can't even think of sexist reasons?  Like, I can't vote for Hillary because a woman would make a poor president?

Your best objection to sol's argument is quibbling over the particular variety of bigotry? Pathetic.

(* I don't actually think that would be a good thing -- much of Obama's agenda sucks -- I'm just using it for illustrative purposes since some of you seem so prone to black-and-white thinking.)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 04:38:21 PM by Jack »

MrMoogle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Huntsville, AL
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #106 on: November 18, 2016, 04:53:37 PM »
Can't even think of sexist reasons?  Like, I can't vote for Hillary because a woman would make a poor president?
Your best objection to sol's argument is quibbling over the particular variety of bigotry? Pathetic.
In mathematics, coming up with one example is enough to disprove a theory.  It wasn't my "best" objection, it was the one I felt like no one could argue against.  And as long as one exists, the theory is disproven.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8433
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #107 on: November 18, 2016, 04:56:21 PM »
In mathematics, coming up with one example is enough to disprove a theory.  It wasn't my "best" objection, it was the one I felt like no one could argue against.  And as long as one exists, the theory is disproven.

When did bigotry become mathematics?

In what twisted world is "I'm sexist" a valid defense against "you're racist"?  Guess what, you can be both!

MrMoogle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Huntsville, AL
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2016, 05:22:06 PM »
In mathematics, coming up with one example is enough to disprove a theory.  It wasn't my "best" objection, it was the one I felt like no one could argue against.  And as long as one exists, the theory is disproven.

When did bigotry become mathematics?

In what twisted world is "I'm sexist" a valid defense against "you're racist"?  Guess what, you can be both!
Debates are basically proofs, which are mathematics.
You can certainly be both.  Are you claiming all sexists are racists?

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8827
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #109 on: November 18, 2016, 05:29:22 PM »
In mathematics, coming up with one example is enough to disprove a theory.  It wasn't my "best" objection, it was the one I felt like no one could argue against.  And as long as one exists, the theory is disproven.

When did bigotry become mathematics?

In what twisted world is "I'm sexist" a valid defense against "you're racist"?  Guess what, you can be both!
Debates are basically proofs, which are mathematics.
You can certainly be both.  Are you claiming all sexists are racists?
Are you serious, or are you just unable or unwilling to parse English?

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #110 on: November 18, 2016, 05:34:08 PM »
In mathematics, coming up with one example is enough to disprove a theory.  It wasn't my "best" objection, it was the one I felt like no one could argue against.  And as long as one exists, the theory is disproven.

When did bigotry become mathematics?

In what twisted world is "I'm sexist" a valid defense against "you're racist"?  Guess what, you can be both!
Debates are basically proofs, which are mathematics.
You can certainly be both.  Are you claiming all sexists are racists?

LOL, more misdirection. Let me know when you're willing to make an attempt to refute my arguments head-on, as I have refuted yours.

Besides, for someone who wants to be mathematical, you seem to have a poor grasp of set theory. Try drawing a Venn diagram -- maybe that will show you your error.

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #111 on: November 18, 2016, 05:44:58 PM »

(* I don't actually think that would be a good thing -- much of Obama's agenda sucks -- I'm just using it for illustrative purposes since some of you seem so prone to black-and-white thinking.)

Jack, you do understand, that stating much of Obama's agenda sucks is exactly the sort of thing that will get you outed as a Racist by the Democratic party right?  It goes like this:

That's one of the most racist things I've ever seen posted on these boards.  Honestly, not liking his agenda just because he's black.  Terrible.  Just terrible.  Do we need to link you to his long form birth certificate again?  I bet you oppose a woman's right to choose too?  You sexist racist teapartier birther.  #socialmedia

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #112 on: November 18, 2016, 06:48:32 PM »

(* I don't actually think that would be a good thing -- much of Obama's agenda sucks -- I'm just using it for illustrative purposes since some of you seem so prone to black-and-white thinking.)

Jack, you do understand, that stating much of Obama's agenda sucks is exactly the sort of thing that will get you outed as a Racist by the Democratic party right?  It goes like this:

That's one of the most racist things I've ever seen posted on these boards.  Honestly, not liking his agenda just because he's black.  Terrible.  Just terrible.  Do we need to link you to his long form birth certificate again?  I bet you oppose a woman's right to choose too?  You sexist racist teapartier birther.  #socialmedia

No, I perfectly understand that that's a false statement.

I will thank you to (A) quit lying about what I "understand", (B) quit lying about what Democrats think, and (C) quit trying to use bullshit strawman fallacies (or fallacies in general).

RosieTR

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 394
  • Location: Northern CO
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #113 on: November 18, 2016, 09:36:21 PM »
Somehow I hadn't heard anything much about GWB or Cheney being racist. Nothing about McCain. Nothing about Romney. I was pretty young when GHWB was pres, but didn't remember hearing any racist stuff there either. GOP Congressmen, nope.

So no, I don't think the left is just out there calling everything racist. I think the left is calling Trump and his inner circle racist, given evidence that they have either made direct statements that can reasonably or only be construed as racist, or they have gone out of their way to promote racist propaganda.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5278
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #114 on: November 19, 2016, 03:48:41 AM »
Somehow I hadn't heard anything much about GWB or Cheney being racist. Nothing about McCain. Nothing about Romney. I was pretty young when GHWB was pres, but didn't remember hearing any racist stuff there either. GOP Congressmen, nope.

So no, I don't think the left is just out there calling everything racist. I think the left is calling Trump and his inner circle racist, given evidence that they have either made direct statements that can reasonably or only be construed as racist, or they have gone out of their way to promote racist propaganda.

Yeah, it pretty  much started with the current President of the USA. And after eight years of divisiveness, apparently, 60+ million Americans were so sick of being called racist and so unsupportive of Barack Obama's policies that they elected a man who has been called every terrible name in the book, has a different skin tone and tweets fuckin' terrible things at 2 a.m. just to try to improve the situation.

Not sure it will work, but you're probably correct that racism wasn't such a cat-call in previous presidential elections; just in the past three or so.

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2912
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #115 on: November 19, 2016, 05:56:21 AM »

(* I don't actually think that would be a good thing -- much of Obama's agenda sucks -- I'm just using it for illustrative purposes since some of you seem so prone to black-and-white thinking.)

Jack, you do understand, that stating much of Obama's agenda sucks is exactly the sort of thing that will get you outed as a Racist by the Democratic party right?  It goes like this:

That's one of the most racist things I've ever seen posted on these boards.  Honestly, not liking his agenda just because he's black.  Terrible.  Just terrible.  Do we need to link you to his long form birth certificate again?  I bet you oppose a woman's right to choose too?  You sexist racist teapartier birther.  #socialmedia

I never voted for Obama (either time) nor do I think his policies are fantastic. Yet I've never been called a racist, in 8 years. I have however, been called a libtard and a communist more times than I care to count. Sure anecdotal evidence but I don't understand the continued straw-man arguments.  It's like your playing the "victim card."

MrMoogle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Huntsville, AL
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #116 on: November 21, 2016, 08:34:57 AM »
In mathematics, coming up with one example is enough to disprove a theory.  It wasn't my "best" objection, it was the one I felt like no one could argue against.  And as long as one exists, the theory is disproven.

When did bigotry become mathematics?

In what twisted world is "I'm sexist" a valid defense against "you're racist"?  Guess what, you can be both!
Debates are basically proofs, which are mathematics.
You can certainly be both.  Are you claiming all sexists are racists?

LOL, more misdirection. Let me know when you're willing to make an attempt to refute my arguments head-on, as I have refuted yours.

Besides, for someone who wants to be mathematical, you seem to have a poor grasp of set theory. Try drawing a Venn diagram -- maybe that will show you your error.
I'm refuting all your refutes because it's a "Bullshit argument -- and proof you lack reading comprehension"

If all Trump supporters are racist, and sexist voters voted for him for sexist reasons.  Then all sexists voters must also be racist.  Therefore, if I can show one sexist voter that is not racist, then not all Trump voters are racist.  If I can show at least one person who voted for Trump wasn't racist, then the statement is not valid. 

What about people who voted Trump on accident?  I'm sure it happens.  What about low information diet people who select the straight Republican? 

I don't think you can prove ALL Trump voters are racist.  You certainly haven't proved it, you've just claimed it.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3770
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #117 on: November 21, 2016, 08:43:39 AM »
How about the people who voted for Obama (some twice) and then for Trump.

Are they racist?

Tyson

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3025
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #118 on: November 21, 2016, 09:38:47 AM »
MrMoogle, I think the concepts you are struggling with can be summed up in 2 statements. 

1. Not all Republicans are racist.
2. Most racists are Republicans. 

Which only makes sense.  Since minority rights and social justices are big pillars of the Dem platform, it's unlikely you'll find many racists in the Dem party. 

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4929
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #119 on: November 21, 2016, 09:51:40 AM »
MrMoogle, I think the concepts you are struggling with can be summed up in 2 statements. 

1. Not all Republicans are racist.
2. Most racists are Republicans. 

Which only makes sense.  Since minority rights and social justices are big pillars of the Dem platform, it's unlikely you'll find many racists in the Dem party.
That is not true.  The racism (and sexism) is more subtle but it is there.  We are raised in a racist and sexist culture, everyone picks it up a bit.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8433
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #120 on: November 21, 2016, 10:24:19 AM »
What about people who voted Trump on accident?

Don't you feel these are the exceptions that prove the rule?  If you have to resort to technicalities to find exceptions, aren't you sort of implicitly accepting that the general rule is true?

If it makes you feel better, yes I agree that some people voted for trump by accident.  Maybe they had a seizure and blacked out.  But for the rest of them, who voted for him deliberately, they either did so because they supported his racism or because they were willing to look past his racism for other reasons.  In either case, that's kind of a racist thing to do.

Papa Mustache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1650
  • Location: Humidity, USA
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #121 on: November 21, 2016, 10:25:01 AM »
Just think - once upon a time it was an automatic disqualification for a candidate to have smoked weed or been divorced.

Now we have trump... 

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3770
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #122 on: November 21, 2016, 10:35:42 AM »
What about people who voted Trump on accident?

Don't you feel these are the exceptions that prove the rule?  If you have to resort to technicalities to find exceptions, aren't you sort of implicitly accepting that the general rule is true?

If it makes you feel better, yes I agree that some people voted for trump by accident.  Maybe they had a seizure and blacked out.  But for the rest of them, who voted for him deliberately, they either did so because they supported his racism or because they were willing to look past his racism for other reasons.  In either case, that's kind of a racist thing to do.

OR maybe, just maybe, they draw the "racist" line somewhere other than where you do.  If I understand correctly, the two groups where Trump is mostly accused of racism is against Mexicans and against Muslims.  On Mexicans, perhaps other people, including some Mexicans, don't fall into the liberal/MSM mind trap where anti-illegal immigration is the same as anti-Mexican.  I know that violates everything we've been told to believe, but hey, maybe it's possible?  And on Muslims, maybe people have gotten tired of seeing various acts committed in the Middle East in the name of Allah, or they see the problems western Europe, especially France and Germany, are having with their Muslim immigrant population, and they don't want that here?  Or they think Trumps "let's vet them before we let them in" isn't so outrageous. 

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8433
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #123 on: November 21, 2016, 10:38:50 AM »
That is not true.  The racism (and sexism) is more subtle but it is there.  We are raised in a racist and sexist culture, everyone picks it up a bit.

I'm not disagreeing with you, Gin, but many of these discussions have focused on people for whom their own bias isn't apparent.  They may even think of themselves as progressive, and not the least bit racist or sexist, because they mostly don't have to think about these issues.  The struggles of minorities are invisible to them.

Calling those people bigots, while sort of true, doesn't help anything.  Their own bias and their own privilege are unrecognized, not out of malice but out of ignorance.  If you want a more fair and just society, you have to be willing to reach out to these folks on their own terms, and that usually means withholding negative labels even when they are wholly justified.

As long as someone is willing to listen and learn, I would advocate ceding the moral high ground to meet them halfway.  Consider it doing the dirty work of social progress, down in the trenches instead of safe in your (my) liberal ivory tower.

little_brown_dog

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 912
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #124 on: November 21, 2016, 10:46:43 AM »
Quote
The whole premise of what I was stating is that the accusation of racist is over-used. You can say everytime some one disagrees with you or don't do something that overtly help the black population that they are racist. It begins to void the accusation.

Seriously dude, no liberal calls everyone who disagrees with them a racist and you know that.

The accusation is being used a lot currently because men who have openly espoused racially prejudiced views will now be at the highest forms of our government. That doesn't worry you, but it does worry a lot of people who think that having these people in power will likely have devastating consequences for non-whites. Calling out the racism of those in power is and will be an important way of holding them accountable to expectations and norms that dictate prejudice and violence against non-whites as unacceptable.

Not true…I am in a very progressive enclave (very progressive myself) and there have been multiple liberal people I know personally who have said things like this over the last week or so:

“no halfway decent person could vote for Trump”
“voting for Trump is a hate crime”
“looks like half our country are just pathetic bigots who hate brown people”
“the white Trump voter just can’t stand the black man can he?”
“I guess whiteness is more important than feminism” (referencing the white women who voted for Trump)

Notice how none of these attacks are directed towards Trump, or his political cronies, but at Trump supporters as a whole. Notice how they all blatantly accuse millions of Americans of purposeful, nefarious racial motivations. Notice the unrelenting moral judgment radiating from these statements, using words like decent, pathetic, crime, etc. These are all direct quotes from my newsfeed by fellow progressives, who pride themselves on being so openminded, and so understanding of context and nuance. There was even an article on CNN with a picture of a protester holding a sign saying "your vote was a hate crime!" (probably where my friend picked it up). Obviously these statements are extremely bigoted, overgeneralized assumptions about millions of Americans. If you haven't seen or heard crap like this since the election, you are either 1) really lucky to be surrounded by so many moderate, intelligent people or 2) you don't actually recognize this behavior as inappropriate and bigoted (maybe because you agree with these nasty sentiments on some level).

I am appalled by these sentiments just as I am appalled at the hateful things Trump himself said. I am against bigotry period, wherever I may find it. If you are progressive/liberal, you first need to open your eyes and recognize our own problematic behavior in our peer group. Our continued blindness to our own hateful bigotry is just solidifying in Trump voters' minds that we are insane, coddled hypocrites who are just whining (instead of expressing legitimate concern for real reasons).
« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 11:04:08 AM by little_brown_dog »

MrMoogle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Huntsville, AL
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #125 on: November 21, 2016, 11:52:13 AM »
What about people who voted Trump on accident?

Don't you feel these are the exceptions that prove the rule?  If you have to resort to technicalities to find exceptions, aren't you sort of implicitly accepting that the general rule is true?

If it makes you feel better, yes I agree that some people voted for trump by accident.  Maybe they had a seizure and blacked out.  But for the rest of them, who voted for him deliberately, they either did so because they supported his racism or because they were willing to look past his racism for other reasons.  In either case, that's kind of a racist thing to do.
No, I don't.  These "technicalities" are just easier to show, than trying to defend 60m individuals individually.  Proving one disproves your statement.  Sure you can move the goal posts, but ALL Trump voters are not racist.  Some are, I can't argue that away.  Some also voted for Hillary.  I'm not even convinced most are, but then again, I don't know most. 

It's only the racist thing to do if racism trumps all other topics.  If you believe abortion is murder, which is stronger, murder or racism?  Things get complicated.

Also, what is your definition of racism?

rosaz

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 191
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #126 on: November 21, 2016, 12:34:19 PM »
Notice how none of these attacks are directed towards Trump, or his political cronies, but at Trump supporters as a whole. Notice how they all blatantly accuse millions of Americans of purposeful, nefarious racial motivations. Notice the unrelenting moral judgment radiating from these statements, using words like decent, pathetic, crime, etc.

I love and admire my grandparents, and I'm grateful for the sacrifices their generation made for our country.

They were also quite racist. Not even necessarily speaking about my own grandparents in particular (they almost certainly were, but it never came up, so I can't say for sure), but the overwhelming majority of white people born in the early 1900's (let alone before that) were extremely racist, and deliberately voted for policies to subjugate racial minorities in this country.

There. I just "blatantly accused millions of Americans of purposeful, nefarious racial motivations". Does that mean I'm wrong?

Sometimes millions of people really are just racist. Doesn't mean they're intrinsically bad people, doesn't mean they're irredeemable, doesn't mean that it's necessarily good politics to call them out on being racist. But there's nothing inherently incorrect about calling a huge part of the American population racist; it's certainly been true for almost all of our history.

little_brown_dog

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 912
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #127 on: November 21, 2016, 12:43:57 PM »
Notice how none of these attacks are directed towards Trump, or his political cronies, but at Trump supporters as a whole. Notice how they all blatantly accuse millions of Americans of purposeful, nefarious racial motivations. Notice the unrelenting moral judgment radiating from these statements, using words like decent, pathetic, crime, etc.

I love and admire my grandparents, and I'm grateful for the sacrifices their generation made for our country.

They were also quite racist. Not even necessarily speaking about my own grandparents in particular (they almost certainly were, but it never came up, so I can't say for sure), but the overwhelming majority of white people born in the early 1900's (let alone before that) were extremely racist, and deliberately voted for policies to subjugate racial minorities in this country.

There. I just "blatantly accused millions of Americans of purposeful, nefarious racial motivations". Does that mean I'm wrong?

Sometimes millions of people really are just racist. Doesn't mean they're intrinsically bad people, doesn't mean they're irredeemable, doesn't mean that it's necessarily good politics to call them out on being racist. But there's nothing inherently incorrect about calling a huge part of the American population racist; it's certainly been true for almost all of our history.

You are right in a way, but you failed to address my point of the character assault. There is a difference between acknowledging racial bias in a non accusatory, introspective, or objective way, and self righteously attacking people for it. Acknowledging racism as a fact is fine, but attacking millions of people's characters/intelligence/etc by accusing them of racism is bigotry. Can you really not see the difference?

And I would argue that there is a big difference between purposeful racial motivations as expressed by white supremacists, and potentially unknown or unrecognized biases in individuals (something all white people in the US have to some degree). When we are accusing people of "hate crimes" or other overt racist behaviors, intent is absolutely critical. In fact, racist intent is the defining factor of what a racial hate crime is.

My point is that if you think it is okay to accuse someone of being racist as a moral judgment on their character, by virtue of only knowing that they voted for Trump (as so many progressives do), you are engaging in bigotry.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 12:49:29 PM by little_brown_dog »

rosaz

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 191
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #128 on: November 21, 2016, 01:29:33 PM »
You are right in a way, but you failed to address my point of the character assault. There is a difference between acknowledging racial bias in a non accusatory, introspective, or objective way, and self righteously attacking people for it. Acknowledging racism as a fact is fine, but attacking millions of people's characters/intelligence/etc by accusing them of racism is bigotry. Can you really not see the difference?

I do see the difference, but for me it comes down to the stakes at hand. Subconsciously prefer to watch movies with a white starring actor? Sure, we can have a non-accusatory, introspective, objective conversation about racial bias. Vote for a guy who openly calls Mexicans rapists? Well, now your racism is directly making this country a lot less comfortable for a lot of people I care about, and yes, I think that is a reflection of your character.

And I would argue that there is a big difference between purposeful racial motivations as expressed by white supremacists, and potentially unknown or unrecognized biases in individuals (something all white people in the US have to some degree). When we are accusing people of "hate crimes" or other overt racist behaviors, intent is absolutely critical. In fact, racist intent is the defining factor of what a racial hate crime is.

Yes, there's absolutely a difference, and accusing Trump voters of hate crimes is going too far. But while I'm sure those extremist views exist, I haven't seen them crop up among the liberal media I've been reading. I don't think that's a common thing.

My point is that if you think it is okay to accuse someone of being racist as a moral judgment on their character, by virtue of only knowing that they voted for Trump (as so many progressives do), you are engaging in bigotry.

Do you think it's ever ok to accuse someone of being racist as a moral judgment because of how they voted? What about those who supported Japanese-American internment? I'm sure most of them didn't actually hate Japanese people, but they saw it as a trade-off between their own security and the well-being of Japanese-Americans, and since they didn't actually care about the well-being of Japanese-Americans, they supported internment. It wasn't a hate crime (since I don't think it was mainly motivated by hatred) but it absolutely was racist.

The argument that we shouldn’t call people racist because it’s a character assault just feels like a parody of “safe spaces” to me. Most of us are morally flawed people; I don’t view it as hateful to point out someone’s moral flaws. If someone looked at my life with some of the accoutrements of middle-class American life, and looked at my charitable donations, they could point out, as a moral judgment on my character, that I clearly care more about my own little conveniences than about the poor, and that I am therefore selfish. It would be a generalization, and there are individuals for whom that generalization would be unfair, but it would be true for me and it wouldn’t be bigoted. The idea that adults of sound mind have a right not to be criticized for the choices they freely make seems very infantilizing to me.

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 714
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #129 on: November 21, 2016, 02:49:07 PM »
You are right in a way, but you failed to address my point of the character assault. There is a difference between acknowledging racial bias in a non accusatory, introspective, or objective way, and self righteously attacking people for it. Acknowledging racism as a fact is fine, but attacking millions of people's characters/intelligence/etc by accusing them of racism is bigotry. Can you really not see the difference?

I do see the difference, but for me it comes down to the stakes at hand. Subconsciously prefer to watch movies with a white starring actor? Sure, we can have a non-accusatory, introspective, objective conversation about racial bias. Vote for a guy who openly calls Mexicans rapists? Well, now your racism is directly making this country a lot less comfortable for a lot of people I care about, and yes, I think that is a reflection of your character.

And I would argue that there is a big difference between purposeful racial motivations as expressed by white supremacists, and potentially unknown or unrecognized biases in individuals (something all white people in the US have to some degree). When we are accusing people of "hate crimes" or other overt racist behaviors, intent is absolutely critical. In fact, racist intent is the defining factor of what a racial hate crime is.

Yes, there's absolutely a difference, and accusing Trump voters of hate crimes is going too far. But while I'm sure those extremist views exist, I haven't seen them crop up among the liberal media I've been reading. I don't think that's a common thing.

My point is that if you think it is okay to accuse someone of being racist as a moral judgment on their character, by virtue of only knowing that they voted for Trump (as so many progressives do), you are engaging in bigotry.

Do you think it's ever ok to accuse someone of being racist as a moral judgment because of how they voted? What about those who supported Japanese-American internment? I'm sure most of them didn't actually hate Japanese people, but they saw it as a trade-off between their own security and the well-being of Japanese-Americans, and since they didn't actually care about the well-being of Japanese-Americans, they supported internment. It wasn't a hate crime (since I don't think it was mainly motivated by hatred) but it absolutely was racist.

The argument that we shouldn’t call people racist because it’s a character assault just feels like a parody of “safe spaces” to me. Most of us are morally flawed people; I don’t view it as hateful to point out someone’s moral flaws. If someone looked at my life with some of the accoutrements of middle-class American life, and looked at my charitable donations, they could point out, as a moral judgment on my character, that I clearly care more about my own little conveniences than about the poor, and that I am therefore selfish. It would be a generalization, and there are individuals for whom that generalization would be unfair, but it would be true for me and it wouldn’t be bigoted. The idea that adults of sound mind have a right not to be criticized for the choices they freely make seems very infantilizing to me.

I would not turn this to examples revolving around internment camps in WWII.

If you can be convinced that the interment or serration of a group of people based on a broad category like race or religion is a preferable means to safety, then you are a problem and you are ignoring the values our country is supposedly in favor of.

I don't care what you call people that can be convinced this is acceptable behavior. This is exactly one piece of how a generation of adults were convinced to allow a war machine to trample a continent and commit genocide. The Nazi party weren't all inherently evil, but all of its supporters for one reason or another allowed themselves to normalize and give power to what most of us would consider an inherently evil philosophy that lead to atrocity and war.

Take what you want from Trumps rallies and messages. The man was all over the map. But he repeatedly was cavalier about playing identity politics to which we have seen ideas like internment of Muslims, denial of entrance to the country based on religion and stop and frisk have all be floated. Labeling Mexican immigrants as rapists and criminals along the way.

Now you can note that he has back peddled. Or that reading between the lines he didn't mean all Mexicans or Muslims are bad and probably doesn't even believe as much. Thats probably true, but feeding into negative identity politics like this has major dangers. It builds the public sentiment necessary to normalize atrocity. If we stayed on this path how long do you think it may be before an crazy opportunist or more dangerous group of leaders sees an opportunity to enact some truly horrifying laws. Countries and law makers don't do terrible things over night and half the country didn't wake up racist. But by electing Trump I do believe we have taken baby steps towards normalizing a brand of identity politics that could lead to some dark places.

As we saw in WWII its possible to have internment camps that don't go full Nazi, but no one knows where the tipping point is. If popular support for things like this go too far we could end up in an ugly place.

Personally I am 99% sure Trump is a complete fool with regards to politics and doesn't fully comprehend the opportunities he has create for other potentially more intelligent and nefarious people in power.

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 714
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #130 on: November 21, 2016, 03:02:41 PM »
On an alternate note I agree it is stupid to say adults need to be sheltered or feel they have a right to be sheltered from criticism for the decisions they make.

Kind of funny the person who seems to take criticism the most poorly is our new president. Can you imagine if Obama had bitched on twitter every time someone criticized him. Or worse held up signs of him being lynched and all the racist jokes that were floating around about him.........

Media and social media though are breading grounds for people to unite in there offense at generalization and slights over the liberal use of condescending character attacks made towards broad segments of the population. We do need to see if we can find ways to stop amplifying this shit because it is creating more division.

There is no reason why a brain dead angry tweet from a celebrity should turn into animosity felt by every Trump voter. It may be entertaining to some, upsetting to others but it is 100% unhealthy and not constructive. When some political leader floats the concept of interment camps we shouldn't be asking if this person is a racist asshole. We should be reminding them and viewers of how out of sync this is with core American values and things we have historically fought to prevent.

For at least a little while liberals should treat the use of the term racist as a four letter word only to be used in conjunction with hate crime and those committing it. A guy driving down the street flying the confederate flag and shouting at black people with a bat, yeah he is a racist asshole who needs counseling to make sure he is not mentally ill. We should be able to argue against bad ideas without trying to shut the conversation down as simply a matter of a person being racist.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7335
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #131 on: November 21, 2016, 05:09:59 PM »
You are right in a way, but you failed to address my point of the character assault. There is a difference between acknowledging racial bias in a non accusatory, introspective, or objective way, and self righteously attacking people for it. Acknowledging racism as a fact is fine, but attacking millions of people's characters/intelligence/etc by accusing them of racism is bigotry. Can you really not see the difference?

I do see the difference, but for me it comes down to the stakes at hand. Subconsciously prefer to watch movies with a white starring actor? Sure, we can have a non-accusatory, introspective, objective conversation about racial bias. Vote for a guy who openly calls Mexicans rapists? Well, now your racism is directly making this country a lot less comfortable for a lot of people I care about, and yes, I think that is a reflection of your character.

And I would argue that there is a big difference between purposeful racial motivations as expressed by white supremacists, and potentially unknown or unrecognized biases in individuals (something all white people in the US have to some degree). When we are accusing people of "hate crimes" or other overt racist behaviors, intent is absolutely critical. In fact, racist intent is the defining factor of what a racial hate crime is.

Yes, there's absolutely a difference, and accusing Trump voters of hate crimes is going too far. But while I'm sure those extremist views exist, I haven't seen them crop up among the liberal media I've been reading. I don't think that's a common thing.

My point is that if you think it is okay to accuse someone of being racist as a moral judgment on their character, by virtue of only knowing that they voted for Trump (as so many progressives do), you are engaging in bigotry.

Do you think it's ever ok to accuse someone of being racist as a moral judgment because of how they voted? What about those who supported Japanese-American internment? I'm sure most of them didn't actually hate Japanese people, but they saw it as a trade-off between their own security and the well-being of Japanese-Americans, and since they didn't actually care about the well-being of Japanese-Americans, they supported internment. It wasn't a hate crime (since I don't think it was mainly motivated by hatred) but it absolutely was racist.

The argument that we shouldn’t call people racist because it’s a character assault just feels like a parody of “safe spaces” to me. Most of us are morally flawed people; I don’t view it as hateful to point out someone’s moral flaws. If someone looked at my life with some of the accoutrements of middle-class American life, and looked at my charitable donations, they could point out, as a moral judgment on my character, that I clearly care more about my own little conveniences than about the poor, and that I am therefore selfish. It would be a generalization, and there are individuals for whom that generalization would be unfair, but it would be true for me and it wouldn’t be bigoted. The idea that adults of sound mind have a right not to be criticized for the choices they freely make seems very infantilizing to me.

I would not turn this to examples revolving around internment camps in WWII.

If you can be convinced that the interment or serration of a group of people based on a broad category like race or religion is a preferable means to safety, then you are a problem and you are ignoring the values our country is supposedly in favor of.

I don't care what you call people that can be convinced this is acceptable behavior. This is exactly one piece of how a generation of adults were convinced to allow a war machine to trample a continent and commit genocide. The Nazi party weren't all inherently evil, but all of its supporters for one reason or another allowed themselves to normalize and give power to what most of us would consider an inherently evil philosophy that lead to atrocity and war.

Take what you want from Trumps rallies and messages. The man was all over the map. But he repeatedly was cavalier about playing identity politics to which we have seen ideas like internment of Muslims, denial of entrance to the country based on religion and stop and frisk have all be floated. Labeling Mexican immigrants as rapists and criminals along the way.

Now you can note that he has back peddled. Or that reading between the lines he didn't mean all Mexicans or Muslims are bad and probably doesn't even believe as much. Thats probably true, but feeding into negative identity politics like this has major dangers. It builds the public sentiment necessary to normalize atrocity. If we stayed on this path how long do you think it may be before an crazy opportunist or more dangerous group of leaders sees an opportunity to enact some truly horrifying laws. Countries and law makers don't do terrible things over night and half the country didn't wake up racist. But by electing Trump I do believe we have taken baby steps towards normalizing a brand of identity politics that could lead to some dark places.

As we saw in WWII its possible to have internment camps that don't go full Nazi, but no one knows where the tipping point is. If popular support for things like this go too far we could end up in an ugly place.

Personally I am 99% sure Trump is a complete fool with regards to politics and doesn't fully comprehend the opportunities he has create for other potentially more intelligent and nefarious people in power.

This. This CANNOT be stressed enough. If we are not better than that, we are not worth much as a nation.

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
Re: Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic
« Reply #132 on: November 22, 2016, 02:57:25 PM »
We should be able to argue against bad ideas without trying to shut the conversation down as simply a matter of a person being racist.

Exactly.

I 100% concede that being racist ought to disqualify you as a candidate.  I would also posit that being under investigation by the FBI for mishandling classified information should disqualify you.  While I completely understand the sentiment that it was abuse of power designed to subvert the political process, the whole point of the tactic is that it is going to work.  You don't nominate that person with that kind of baggage.  You lament the lost opportunity.  You decry the system that makes it possible for such tactics to work.  You work to change them.  Making the decision to flaunt, to flagrantly display your disdain in whatever the hell that campaign can be described as, I understand why it happened but it shouldn't have happened.

The stakes are too high.

And it is incredibly important to move off the character attack on the constituency because there's important fights happening right now.  The biggest mistake the republicans made the past 8 years was taking a position that compromise was impossible.  It cost them opportunity and the country went further left than ever.  If the democrats dig in their heels to try the same shit, the country is going to go right in a hurry.

There's a whole bunch of appointees coming up, all across government, many of them Senate confirmable.

And here's the kicker, Trump isn't a Republican.  There's going to be a decent chunk of Republicans who don't want to confirm his nominees.

For the first time since I can remember, both parties are likely to get a say in policy from here on out.  Only those party members in tight districts have to worry about keeping their seats.  But we have to empower them to actually govern.

Send this letter to your congressperson,

Dear Old White Man (if GOP) or Dear Unqualified Minority AA Apointee (if Dem),

Please represent my interests in the upcoming congressional session.  I want the government to function.  I want you to advise and consent on Presidential nominees to various vacancies.  He's going to need your help, as he is not up to this task.  Please remember that YOU won, you were sent there to do a job.  I understand there will be compromise.  I understand that some people I don't want to help will be helped, and some I want to help won't be.  I also understand that Things cost Money and that has to come from somewhere.  Please try to spend less.  Please don't spend anything on my account, I'm doing OK.  Make more things legal.  Don't make any more things illegal.  Do your best, and always remember it is more important to do well while you are there than to be there for longer.

Ideally you'd get everything done that ever needs to be done in one session, and we can all just live our lives.

Thank you,

-A blithering racist idiot (if you didn't love HRC apparently) or an over-educated under-contributing commie (if you didn't love Trump apparently)


Here's the last bit I will say.  This is a monumental opportunity to reign in the power of the executive branch folks.  Part of what made the right so furious about BHO was the circumvention of congress.  I'm not 100% sure, but I think that precedent was set by GWB.  Congress can absolutely pass legislation limiting the authority of executive orders, or at least, completely defunding the various agencies the executive is using to abuse that power and reaffirming those agencies' ties to the legislature.

This is a once in a generation opportunity.  Neither party likes the president.  With veto-override margins, congress despises Trump.  The majority of the country voted for someone else.  Both caucuses could work together to get some populist shit passed in a hurry and beef up the public opinion of congress, make the executive largely irrelevant (just in time) and move us towards a pre-9/11 level of government.

Or dismiss the legitimate grievances of the other side as just hand-wringing anxieties of a bunch of racist white folk.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!