Questions for the childfree

[Katnina]

Hello!  I'm 32 and newly married to a lovely 34 year old guy, and we do not plan on having kids.  Many, many reasons behind our decision to remain childfree, including but not limited to: neither of us has a burning desire to parent, we both have mental health issues in our families, environmental concerns/overpopulation, hubs' half brother was born when he was 16 and he had to deal with a baby/toddler til he escaped to college, so he gets how hard it is to have a baby around, I am an introvert and need sleep and quiet time, etc.

Here are my questions for fellow CF MMM'ers out there:
1) how do you find real world childfree friends? All of our college and high school friends are in baby mode and we are getting a little lonely for conversations about something other than pregnancy/strollers/diapers/nannies/etc.
2) insurance:  right now we are on my husband's work provided health insurance plan, but he is planning to retire in a few years so we will need to buy an individual health insurance plan. I know things are changing with the Affordable Care Act, but I did a search for individual health plans last night and EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. included maternity care.  Is it possible to find plans without maternity care?  What is the difference in price currently? (Cheapest plan I could find for the two of us in NY state was $430/month, allowed for HSA, but of course included maternity care).
3) where do you draw the line on gifts for friends' babies/kids?  I was very generous with wedding gifts when I was still working; but we eloped and specifically asked for no gifts.  I feel like people expect gifts for baby showers, births, etc but given that 10 babies have arrived in the past year, it really starts to add up.
4) for estate planning, etc, how do you find someone that you trust to give power of attorney to and medical proxies, etc, when you are older?  I don't think long term care insurance makes sense for us, as we have enough to self-insure (have seen other discussion of this on the forum), but I want to make sure that we don't end up destitute because we chose the wrong person to help with our finances if/when we are no longer able to do our own bookkeeping (and no, this is not enough of a reason for us to have a kid! No guarantee a kid would even do the right thing, as evidenced by some of the fights my mom & uncle have gotten into over my grandmother's money).

Thank you!

[ace1224]

i am not childfree but i just wanted to say don't totally write off people with kids to hang out with.  we do several adult only things with other couples and have adult only bbq's and stuff like that.  and if the college friends just had the kids, give them a little time eventually they will get over telling you about every single poop. i'm currently going through that now with a coworker.  my kid is 8 so i am unimpressed with rolling over stories, i'm hoping she calms down soon and i get my karaoke friend back soon!!

and for the drawing the line on gifts, all showers i send a gift whether i attend or not if i was invited.  for kids bday parties you only get a gift if i go, and really i only go to very good friends kids parties. 

i only have 1 child, i will only have 1 child, and most of my friends are on their 3rd and 4th so i understand about the gifting. 

[smalllife]

Yay for childfreedom!

1. Sports groups, book clubs, free artsy offerings, local festivals, interest groups etc.  In NYC there are bound to be a few child free advocacy groups, or at least some forum meet ups (ChildFreeLife is a good place to start)
2. Part of ACA was requiring insurance plans to cover maternity care.  It sucks, but at least it also covers sterilization at no cost to you.  I don't know if you could get a discount with proof of sterilization, but it's worth asking.
3. I don't do gifts in general, but I'll bring home made treats or a bottle of wine to the party.  If it's a baby shower bring a food dish so she doesn't have to worry about cooking after cleaning up the wrapping paper and other party messes.  Easy on the environment, doesn't overtly contribute to the glorification of parenting, and still shows concern for your friend in a personal way.
4. Do you have any siblings who could be power of attorney?  Be each other's first, and then have a secondary.   I plan on having no extreme measures to keep me alive at that point, so I just need to find someone rational enough to prevent the plug from being put in when the time comes.  No good answer for you here, but close friends or younger generations of family are probably the best ones.

[impaire]

i am not childfree but i just wanted to say don't totally write off people with kids to hang out with.   

I am childless, 36, and I +1 this message. Your friends are your friends for a reason--yes, some (most?) will seem baby-brain-washed for a while, but they will come back to humanity after a while, and they will be desperate for friends with adult conversation. Patience!

Plus honestly, while I don't want kids myself, I think they're pretty awesome to hang out with when you know that you can walk away from them whenever you feel like it.

Finally - hang out with academic types. Soooo many childless-by-choice people!

--

I'm not sure about your other questions... I don't gift anything for showers I don't attend, and I will not attend baby showers, expect for my very dearest friends, few of which are Americans (and no one except Americans throws baby showers)... So it's not a huge issue for me :)

[hoodedfalcon]

Double yay for childfreedom! I am also an introvert and totally identify with you on the childfree rationale.

1. I am really lucky that a large majority of my close friends are also childfree. I don't know what your hobbies are, but I have found that various outdoorsy type Meetups are good for finding other child free people. I agree that the academic types might also be the way to go.

2. Personally, I have never looked into this bc it's not something that concerns me or bothers me.

3. I am not a huge gift giver to begin with, and tend to be friends with other folks who wouldn't get offended by not receiving a gift. If they are a really good friend, I will get something small and a little odd/goofy just for fun, or make something homemade.

4. My best friend is also childfree by choice and he is set up as my go-to pull the plug person. I have another good friend who is my second in line. I trust both of them without question to do the right thing. Is there anyone in your life you would trust to be that person? Having a family member do it is not always the best idea, but do you have any siblings? Will they be having kids? Perhaps as time goes by, you could develop a relationship with a niece or nephew that could handle these things?

[footenote]

Yay for childfreedom!
2. Part of ACA was requiring insurance plans to cover maternity care.  It sucks, but at least it also covers sterilization at no cost to you.  I don't know if you could get a discount with proof of sterilization, but it's worth asking.

4. Do you have any siblings who could be power of attorney?  Be each other's first, and then have a secondary.   I plan on having no extreme measures to keep me alive at that point, so I just need to find someone rational enough to prevent the plug from being put in when the time comes.  No good answer for you here, but close friends or younger generations of family are probably the best ones.

+1 Childfree was the right decision for us, too.

2. smalllife is correct, maternity coverage it's required in all ACA exchange policies. One upside of ACA: if you are living in retirement on a low income (or perhaps no "income" because you are spending post-tax savings) you will qualify for subsidies. Be sure to check that out.

4. My spouse is my primary POA and a younger sib (by 6 yrs, so hopefully she'll outlive me) is secondary. Agree there are no easy answers on this one (and also agree it's not a good reason to have kids!).

(Reminder to those of you who, like smalllife and me, do not want extreme end-of-life measures: be sure you have documented Advanced Directives. You can find a form by googling "Advanced Directive" and your state.

All medical providers, from the EMTs in the ambulance to the docs and nurses in ER and ICU, are programmed to give you "the works" unless your Advanced Directives are documented and immediately accessible. DH and I each carry a copy of our ADs in our wallets and copies are on file in our medical records. We have also had conversations with family members to ensure they understand we do not want CPR, intubation or other life support.)

[Eric]

You have PLENTY of time to figure out how to assign your power of attorney.  Do you have any nieces or nephews?  Will you become "grandma" to some neighborhood kids?  Will you make great friends with new neighbors in 30 years?  Maybe you'll take a liking to some of those kids that your friends are having right now and can ask them.  I can't imagine worrying about this now.  As you said, it's something everyone will deal with and having kids is no guarantee either.

[Sweet Betsy]

It makes me laugh that you can't find an individual plan without maternity coverage...when we were looking several years ago there were virtually no individual plans with maternity coverage and you definitely paid through the nose for it.  Right now ACA is changing things...hopefully by the time your dh retires and you are ready to insure yourselves all the details will be worked out. 

One thing to keep in mind is whether or not you'll stay in NYC after both of you retire.  There are a couple of health insurance plans that cater to expats.  You have to stay out of the US for at least 6 months per year to qualify but if travel is in your future anyway they are a very affordable option.  You could also look at having a permanent residence in another lower cost state depending on what your future holds.  You have more options than you think you have so don't worry about it too much. 

As far as baby gifts...give whatever you'd like.  Don't feel pressured to overgive or give at all.  I certainly wouldn't be offended and wouldn't want someone to give me a gift because they felt they had to. 

[BlueMR2]

1) The hobbies we enjoy tend to accumulate larger percentages of child-free couples.  The couples in them that do have children, at least you have the hobby in common to talk about.  All our old school friends that have children are basically gone now and replaced with all new friends.  About a 50/50 split of with/without children, and based solely around our favorite hobbies.

2) On employer's plan now, but have seen individual ones in the past that would have worked.  Would have required us to both get individual plans rather than a single family plan though.

3) Hasn't been an issue.  After the first few, we really don't even get invited to those things anymore.  Our child bearing friends invite other families with children to those parties so that the kids can all play together.  Those of us without children only get invites to the "regular" parties.  No effort expended here, it just naturally turned that way.

4) Just doesn't make our list of things to worry about.  We've seen so many parents get taken advantage by their children that we feel that it doesn't matter.  Figure we'll end up in one of those homes that keeps you alive and acceptably happy as they suck every last dollar out of you.  Seen plenty of people with children choose that route anyways just to keep the children from fighting.

[Katnina]

Wow, thank you for all of the responses!  I'm not looking to abandon my friends who are having babies right now, but while they are all in the baby fog, we would like to occasionally hang out with some folks who don't talk about babies 24/7!  I like kids a lot (I volunteer for an education program in the city) but I don't want them to be the entire focus of all conversations (or of my life...hence our childfreedom!).
That is great advice about having our siblings as secondary POA's.  We both have older siblings, so probably wouldn't have them do it, but hubs' half brother just turned 18 and is turning into a great person, so perhaps this is something we can discuss with him in the future.  I know we are young to be considering this, but after seeing what has been going on with my grandmother's health care & finances (I now maintain control of half of her accounts because my mom & her brother can't be trusted to do what is in her best interest...), I want to make sure we focus on it before we get to a point where we are incapacitated and can't keep track of everything. 
My sister is preggo and I'm hoping to have a close relationship with her child, so that is another good option, but I don't want to be a burden to anyone.
Great advice in the advance directives, too.  I once read about a nurse who had "DO NOT RESUCITATE" tattooed on her chest because she did not want 'heroic effort' to save her if she had an accident or stroke or whatever.  That is an option I may consider when I am a lot older! 
As for staying in NYC, I'm hoping we will travel the u.s. for a while in a restored airstream (we can't leave the u.s. with our dogs because one of them has an immune disorder which means she can't get vaccinations) and sublet our apartment during that.  Then, we plan to split time between NYC, Detroit (hubs is from there and we have 6 rental properties there & lots of friends), and LA (my family is there).  Ideally we'd sublet our NYC apartment when we are away, spend the summers in Detroit, and spend November-March in our future airstream in SoCal.
As for baby gifts, I need to be less lazy and start knitting again.  I have a stash of yarn, time to knit, and I enjoy it, so why aren't I doing it!?

[Eric]

I once read about a nurse who had "DO NOT RESUCITATE" tattooed on her chest because she did not want 'heroic effort' to save her if she had an accident or stroke or whatever.

Ha!  That's a riot!

[Rural]

No kids here, and I just wanted to say "hang in there." In a few years, the problems of people to hang out with and of baby showers will pass. Most of our friends who had kids now are empty nesters or the parents of teenagers who don't want to hang out with Mom and Dad. The difference you're perceiving between you and most of the people around you is a temporary thing.

[ep114]

Thanks for your post. I feel like the whole world has been hyper-focused on parenthood lately. Babies are cool, but there are cool things too.   And, OMG, don't get me started on the idea that the only women's issues that are worthy of discussion are about childcare.

1. I think this one sorts itself out. Frankly, parents usually don't have time for interests, hobbies, etc so most of the people you meet going forward (outside of work)  will be without kids.   And hopefully you can keep up your friendships with your existing friends that have kids.

3. I get some really freaking cute baby clothes for showers- they can be pretty cheap. I usually find great sales at Macy's.
4. Holy shit, I don't know.  But I tend to think that the baby boomers moving through the life cycle will leave us with a lot more services/options in place.  I'm hoping to move into a really kick-ass assisted liing. And maybe you and your husband won't lose your marbles at the same time.  And it's so far off, no use in thinking about it now too much.

[bUU]

We're childfree, for some of the reasons you mentioned: lack of "burning" desire to parent, overpopulation concerns, spouse practically raised two children already (younger siblings).

1) We did become each other's best friend, and that makes a big difference. We've actually never had a "group" of friends (childfree or otherwise) until recently, and now the friendships we're developing are with mostly empty-nesters. I'll tell you what I believe we should do (not intending to presumptively include you in "we" [unless you'd like]): Our church begs older folks like us to volunteer to teach Sunday School. I think that would tend to expand our circle of friends to include parents. I doubt we'll do it though; at least not until we've retired.

2) The ACA includes the EHB requirement: The required categories for essential health benefits include: ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, prescription drugs, rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices, laboratory services, preventive and wellness services and chronic disease management and pediatric services. Including essential services in all policies within the pool helps support the affordability provisions of the law.

3) First, I never consider gifting a quid pro quo arrangement, so the fact that we had no bridal shower, our wedding was sixteen people jammed into my mother's living room ("no gifts please"), etc., and of course, no children, had no impact on what we give to others in those "gifting opportunities". Second, we give the lower of what's expected and what we can afford.

4) It wasn't easy. To be honest, right now I don't remember who we designated. It was between my older brother's wife and my spouse's cousin: The former is a very level-headed, responsible person with a strong medical background (relatively speaking - she was a insurance coder), but she lives 200 miles away. The latter lives just 40 miles away, and is a doggedly determined person, who will be a needle in the side of any hospital not giving us our due, if it comes to that. The key is that there was never any second thought about trusting either of these two people doing the right thing, vis a vis protecting us and our money, if need be.

[footenote]

Respectful disagreement with those who are saying "You have plenty of time" on PoA and medical proxies (and I would add Advanced Directives). You are always one serious accident (or house fire or whatever) away from needing these arrangements in place.

I was in the ER once and the 20-something nurse asked me about Advanced Directives. I pointed to my purse nearby and said "It's in my wallet if you need it, plus it's in my medical record." She beamed and said "So few people have done that - great job!" She keeps urging everyone in her family to complete one - now. She has even asked that they skip the next birthday or Christmas present for her and substitute completing their AD and getting it witnessed and in their medical records.

[ep114]

for #4, the OP specifically asked about "when you are older" 
yes, anyone can get into a horrible medical situation any day, but if happens now, this OP situation as a married person in her 30s is exactly the same as a married person in her 30s with kids. The kids are not old enough to make those decisions. I presume the husband would. If the husband was not, again it would be in the same situation as someone with kids.

[footenote]

for #4, the OP specifically asked about "when you are older" 
yes, anyone can get into a horrible medical situation any day, but if happens now, this OP situation as a married person in her 30s is exactly the same as a married person in her 30s with kids. The kids are not old enough to make those decisions. I presume the husband would. If the husband was not, again it would be in the same situation as someone with kids.

It's not far-fetched that OP could be in a serious accident with her spouse. If they were both hospitalized and incapacitated (or if one died and the other survived incapacitated) who would make the decisions for them?

[ep114]

yep, that could happen. That's why I wrote "if the husband was not, again it would be the same situation as someone with kids"  Kids would still be too young to make any decisions and there situation would not be different than a couple with children.
There is nothing wrong with advanced directives (I am a plan of all sorts of advanced planning) but for people with young children or no children, there is not much difference.  The couple is 32 and 34. if they changed their minds and decided to have kids next year, the child would not be an adult for 18 years. Still quite a few years.

And doesn't really get to the heart of the question. The original question was about "when you are older"    And the question was about financial, not just medical decisions. 
Making plans for the 'golden years" for people without kids (or kids who can't be trusted, are estranged, are ill themselves, etc) is different than for those who have grown children they trust and are close to. For example, my mother knows that her kids would be in charge of these things if it comes to that for her. My sister will presumably rely on her daughter. I have no children so I will have to decide.  When I think about who would be the right person to select now, and in 40-50 years, it is 2 different topics.   For the 40-50 years out scenario, I don't know who I will know then, who will be alive,if I will be married,  what our relationships will be, what shape they will be in themselves, what services are available, what applicable laws will have been passed, etc. For this reason I don't think it's worth losing sleep over this now.

[mc6]

1) how do you find real world childfree friends? At work?  Most of my friends in my current location are other professional ladies w/o kids. 

2) insurance:  N/A. 

3) where do you draw the line on gifts for friends' babies/kids?  I like to give books as a gifts.  Books on trucks, horses, trains--whatever the kiddo is into.  This can be a cheap purchase on Amazon. 

4) for estate planning, etc, how do you find someone that you trust to give power of attorney to and medical proxies, etc, when you are older?  I currently have a will etc. with my mom listed as my executor because I wanted to have a will before I went to the desert...  I'm from a small nuclear family with no siblings.  I have some longtime friends who I would consider POAs with in the future. 

[bUU]

for #4, the OP specifically asked about "when you are older" 
yes, anyone can get into a horrible medical situation any day, but if happens now, this OP situation as a married person in her 30s is exactly the same as a married person in her 30s with kids. The kids are not old enough to make those decisions. I presume the husband would. If the husband was not, again it would be in the same situation as someone with kids.

It's not far-fetched that OP could be in a serious accident with her spouse. If they were both hospitalized and incapacitated (or if one died and the other survived incapacitated) who would make the decisions for them?

Precisely. As soon as you have something to protect, you need protection, if only to specifically designate wishes for temporary custody of children in case of incapacity, if even to preclude sibling vs sibling conflicts. And such arrangements should be revisited every few years, replacing PoAs, advanced directives and wills, as necessary.

And I resent people reminding me I'm "older". :)

[oldtoyota]

Wow, thank you for all of the responses!  I'm not looking to abandon my friends who are having babies right now, but while they are all in the baby fog, we would like to occasionally hang out with some folks who don't talk about babies 24/7!  I like kids a lot (I volunteer for an education program in the city) but I don't want them to be the entire focus of all conversations (or of my life...hence our childfreedom!).

Are kids/babies really the entire focus of your current conversations with your friends? If you're not exaggerating, then yikes. If you they really do talk about kids constantly, then just think of the kids as people your friends are talking about. You probably talk about people too...and, if so, it would all equal out.

As for gifts, I attended some (not all) baby showers. I dislike the games, the pastel colors, and the endless spit-up towels given as gifts at these things. Most of my dearest friends live elsewhere, so I ended up not going to many showers. If you feel pressed to give a gift, bringing a meal to a new family is probably one of the kindest and most thoughtful things you could do. I used to volunteer in my neighborhood to bring meals to new parents. I would just cook more of whatever I was having and bring it over. =-)

Btw, I am not childfree but I felt like answering anyway!

[Micheal]

Don't worry to much about the baby fog, it'll lift pretty quick.  Most of my friends have kids but we still manage to do plenty of "Adult" activities.  About gifts, don't being one of you don't want to, and if you do, hit up the thrift stores, most things a baby will only use for a few weeks-months anyway so there are always plenty of things in the shops for babies.