Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd

[fa]

Since you started your thread with an insult, why do you expect to get reasoned debate?

I denounce violence associated with anti-Trump protests. I denounce violence in general, and definitely include the old man beat up in Chicago. So, wholeheartedly yes to #2.

As to #1, I'm less OK with.

C'mon, that was a pretty good zinger opener.
Thanks for your feedback.

If that's your idea of "coming together" it's not going to happen. Not really how that works. I don't see anything resembling outreach from the Trump supporter side of things.

I remember a certain president saying "elections have consequences".  That apparently meant "my way or the highway".  Not exactly anybody's definition of reaching out.  I don't like Trump, but I just wanted to point out how people tend to be blind to the actions of their own side.

[golden1]

HRC isn't a criminal, never has been.  FBI director Comey cleared her himself.  My conscience is crystal clear. 

Trump admitted himself that he loves grabbing pussy.  Twelve women have stepped forward claiming assault.  Are ALL of them lying? 

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do. 

[Fishingmn]

President Trump's supporters don't attack the police.

Not true - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3902902/Iowa-cop-killer-Scott-Michael-Greene-proud-Donald-Trump-supporter.html

In addition, there have been recent high profile interactions between Trump supporters and the Bureau of Land Management in Nevada and Oregon.

[golden1]

They definitely attack the police.  Haven't you ever seen "Cops"? 

[Crushtheturtle]

HRC isn't a criminal, never has been.  FBI director Comey cleared her himself.  My conscience is crystal clear. 

Trump admitted himself that he loves grabbing pussy.  Twelve women have stepped forward claiming assault.  Are ALL of them lying? 

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do.

1. Hillary's "charity" took in 3 billion dollars. Will this level of income continue now that she has no hope of holding power? Oh gosh, I wonder.

2. Grabbing pussy has nothing to do with being President. Just ask Bill Clinton.

3. Why should families be split up? The kids can join mom and dad in the back of the line, seeking entry legally with all the other applicants across the globe.

4. Convenience and economics are good justification for abortion? How about unwanted toddlers, they sure do make life hard for single mothers. Okay to bash their little heads in with a hammer? Anything else would be cowardice, Assuming I don't want to raise them.

[Metric Mouse]

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do.

To be fair about adoption, for every person that adopts an infant, there are several on a wait list. There is no shortage of people willing to adopt infants.

[Kris]

OP, let me tell you about it from my perspective.  I am a black female (I rarely bring up race and gender but I feel it's relevant to the discussion of politics for me this year).  I have considered myself to be a moderate Republican my entire adult life. I do not condone violence of any kind. 

I was born and raised in the Midwest but the majority of my family lives in rural areas and the exurbs of Mississippi and Tennessee.  To put it in perspective, I can remember my great-great grandmother.  She died when I was four.  Her mother was born a slave.  My father was in the first class of black students to integrate his high school. My family in the South has experienced racism that I cannot even imagine.  I'm not talking about microagressions and trigger words.  I'm talking about cross burnings and knowing that the local police officers, judges and politicians were members of the KKK. 

Fliers from the KKK were publicly distributed in my dad's hometown for the first time since the 60's due to the recent resurgence of  white nationalistic groups caused by Donald Trump.  David Duke is back in the national spotlight.  Yes, a lot of black people live in big cities...but most black people do not.  I think people forget how vulnerable groups of people can be outside of large metropolitan areas. 

I went to the local Trump rally.  He was my party's nominee and I wanted to give him a chance.  Trump railed against Syrian and Somali refugees by calling them terrorists.  He said it was crazy that we weren't spying on mosques and tracking "those people."  Please understand that Trump's campaign rhetoric has actual consequences.  There have been increased hate crimes committed against minorities in the last 18 months.  Think about what protections will or won't be offered to these groups by a DOJ under a Trump administration.

Trump stated at the rally that the Democrats were why blacks are poor and uneducated. It was surreal to see people nodding and cheering in agreement (not to mention that we are not all poor or uneducated or living in inner cities).  I don't think that Democrats are the cause of the problems in the inner-city any more than I think Republicans are the cause of the problems in Appalachia or white rural America.  What I wanted was intelligent political discourse that was not based in identity politics or fear-mongering.  What I got was vitriol and blanket statements that he could simply fix everything.  The crowd just ate it up.  I have never been more afraid for the state of political discourse.   Trump asked the African American community at the rally (population: me) what the hell we had to lose if he won. I can say that a sense of security and the hope that your fellow Americans would not elect someone who intentionally plays footsie with the KKK are the first two things that come to mind.  It creates a general sense of unease. 

It makes me queasy to think that any major political party (let alone my chosen political party) is excited about controlling all three branches of govt. after riding the coattails of a blatantly (white) nationalistic campaign.  Most Americans who voted for Trump could tell themselves that he said some racist, sexist and inappropriate things, BUT they could still vote for him.  For me, Trump said some racist, sexist and inappropriate things, SO I could not vote for him. That and I don't think he's qualified for the job.  Tax cuts aren't worth it for me.

Do I condone or encourage violence? Of course not.  Do I understand why people who believe in protecting the environment, access to health care, marriage equality, safety of minorities, women's rights, separation of church and state, and general decency would protest the election of Donald Trump as president?  Yes.

This.

This is so useful to read. To the point that any Trump supporter who doesn't read and digest this probably doesn't have a lot of ground to stand on.

[RosieTR]

OP, let me tell you about it from my perspective.  I am a black female (I rarely bring up race and gender but I feel it's relevant to the discussion of politics for me this year).  I have considered myself to be a moderate Republican my entire adult life. I do not condone violence of any kind. 

I was born and raised in the Midwest but the majority of my family lives in rural areas and the exurbs of Mississippi and Tennessee.  To put it in perspective, I can remember my great-great grandmother.  She died when I was four.  Her mother was born a slave.  My father was in the first class of black students to integrate his high school. My family in the South has experienced racism that I cannot even imagine.  I'm not talking about microagressions and trigger words.  I'm talking about cross burnings and knowing that the local police officers, judges and politicians were members of the KKK. 

Fliers from the KKK were publicly distributed in my dad's hometown for the first time since the 60's due to the recent resurgence of  white nationalistic groups caused by Donald Trump.  David Duke is back in the national spotlight.  Yes, a lot of black people live in big cities...but most black people do not.  I think people forget how vulnerable groups of people can be outside of large metropolitan areas. 

I went to the local Trump rally.  He was my party's nominee and I wanted to give him a chance.  Trump railed against Syrian and Somali refugees by calling them terrorists.  He said it was crazy that we weren't spying on mosques and tracking "those people."  Please understand that Trump's campaign rhetoric has actual consequences.  There have been increased hate crimes committed against minorities in the last 18 months.  Think about what protections will or won't be offered to these groups by a DOJ under a Trump administration.

Trump stated at the rally that the Democrats were why blacks are poor and uneducated. It was surreal to see people nodding and cheering in agreement (not to mention that we are not all poor or uneducated or living in inner cities).  I don't think that Democrats are the cause of the problems in the inner-city any more than I think Republicans are the cause of the problems in Appalachia or white rural America.  What I wanted was intelligent political discourse that was not based in identity politics or fear-mongering.  What I got was vitriol and blanket statements that he could simply fix everything.  The crowd just ate it up.  I have never been more afraid for the state of political discourse.   Trump asked the African American community at the rally (population: me) what the hell we had to lose if he won. I can say that a sense of security and the hope that your fellow Americans would not elect someone who intentionally plays footsie with the KKK are the first two things that come to mind.  It creates a general sense of unease. 

It makes me queasy to think that any major political party (let alone my chosen political party) is excited about controlling all three branches of govt. after riding the coattails of a blatantly (white) nationalistic campaign.  Most Americans who voted for Trump could tell themselves that he said some racist, sexist and inappropriate things, BUT they could still vote for him.  For me, Trump said some racist, sexist and inappropriate things, SO I could not vote for him. That and I don't think he's qualified for the job.  Tax cuts aren't worth it for me.

Do I condone or encourage violence? Of course not.  Do I understand why people who believe in protecting the environment, access to health care, marriage equality, safety of minorities, women's rights, separation of church and state, and general decency would protest the election of Donald Trump as president?  Yes.

This.

This is so useful to read. To the point that any Trump supporter who doesn't read and digest this probably doesn't have a lot of ground to stand on.

^^^^^ THIS.

[golden1]

Quote from: golden1 on November 12, 2016, 01:10:15 PM
HRC isn't a criminal, never has been.  FBI director Comey cleared her himself.  My conscience is crystal clear. 

Trump admitted himself that he loves grabbing pussy.  Twelve women have stepped forward claiming assault.  Are ALL of them lying? 

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do.

1. Hillary's "charity" took in 3 billion dollars. Will this level of income continue now that she has no hope of holding power? Oh gosh, I wonder.

2. Grabbing pussy has nothing to do with being President. Just ask Bill Clinton.

3. Why should families be split up? The kids can join mom and dad in the back of the line, seeking entry legally with all the other applicants across the globe.

4. Convenience and economics are good justification for abortion? How about unwanted toddlers, they sure do make life hard for single mothers. Okay to bash their little heads in with a hammer? Anything else would be cowardice, Assuming I don't want to raise them.

1.  Hillary's charity saved countless lives.  What have you done to save anyone's life lately?

2.  I am a sexual assault survivor, and I assure you that the fact that he assaults women has a lot to do with someone who is supposed to be a role model for our country.   Also a) I didn't vote for Bill Clinton, and b) even if I did, he was not revealed to be a sexual assaulter before being elected, just a cheater, which as far as I remember is consensual. 

3. So now you are talking about revoking birthright citizenship for legitimate American citizens.  Okay that's fine, but then you have to leave too.  The only people who get to stay are native Americans since they were at the front of the line.

4.  Your comments reveal that you are obviously pro-birth, but you aren't pro-life.  You only care about the fetus when it is inside the woman, but after that, you don't care at all.  It is actually rather short sighted of you, and against your own best interest, but hate tends to do that to people. 

[gggggg]

HRC isn't a criminal, never has been.  FBI director Comey cleared her himself.  My conscience is crystal clear. 

Trump admitted himself that he loves grabbing pussy.  Twelve women have stepped forward claiming assault.  Are ALL of them lying? 

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do.

Hateful coward checking in. Obviously the majority of Americans disagree with you.

[Gin1984]

HRC isn't a criminal, never has been.  FBI director Comey cleared her himself.  My conscience is crystal clear. 

Trump admitted himself that he loves grabbing pussy.  Twelve women have stepped forward claiming assault.  Are ALL of them lying? 

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do.

Hateful coward checking in. Obviously the majority of Americans disagree with you.

Except not, because the majority voted for Clinton.

[gggggg]

HRC isn't a criminal, never has been.  FBI director Comey cleared her himself.  My conscience is crystal clear. 

Trump admitted himself that he loves grabbing pussy.  Twelve women have stepped forward claiming assault.  Are ALL of them lying? 

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do.

Hateful coward checking in. Obviously the majority of Americans disagree with you.

Except not, because the majority voted for Clinton.

Who won again?

[MoseyingAlong]

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do.

Sincere question.

Do you think this logic also applies to child abuse?  i.e. You can' t be appalled and try to prevent child abuse unless you're offering all those children another place to live?

[the_gastropod]

HRC isn't a criminal, never has been.  FBI director Comey cleared her himself.  My conscience is crystal clear. 

Trump admitted himself that he loves grabbing pussy.  Twelve women have stepped forward claiming assault.  Are ALL of them lying? 

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do.

Hateful coward checking in. Obviously the majority of Americans disagree with you.

Except not, because the majority voted for Clinton.

Who won again?

Cute. Someone is unfamiliar with the electoral college.

[gggggg]

HRC isn't a criminal, never has been.  FBI director Comey cleared her himself.  My conscience is crystal clear. 

Trump admitted himself that he loves grabbing pussy.  Twelve women have stepped forward claiming assault.  Are ALL of them lying? 

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do.

Hateful coward checking in. Obviously the majority of Americans disagree with you.

Except not, because the majority voted for Clinton.

Who won again?

Cute. Someone is unfamiliar with the electoral college.

Thanks. Someone is very familiar with the electoral college, as they work in politics every day. Try again.

[GuitarStv]

I think you missed that no one called anyone on this forum a crybaby.

You appear to have missed that calling someone on the forum a crybaby is exactly what acroy was warned about by the moderators.

One noted crybaby recently defined a ‘successful Trump presidency’ as ‘his helicopter crashing into Trump Tower’.

Referencing this post in the "What does a successful Trump presidency look like?" thread:

His helicopter crashes into Trump tower on day 10

[acroy]

Great discussion, thanks for all inputs, particularly redbirdfan.

'crybaby' was indeed directed at Northwestie, whose frequent use of the term has been a source of amusement. Apologies for the violation of the forum rules.

[Lagom]

Thanks. Someone is very familiar with the electoral college, as they work in politics every day. Try again.

So you're just being willfully obtuse. Got it.

Edit - Here's an extra dose of cognitive dissonance for you:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/us-election-hillary-clinton-more-votes-popular-vote-any-candidate-barack-obama-donald-trump-a7413596.html

[Metric Mouse]

Great discussion, thanks for all inputs, particularly redbirdfan.

'crybaby' was indeed directed at Northwestie, whose frequent use of the term has been a source of amusement. Apologies for the violation of the forum rules.

Ahh. My bad, everybody.

[jrhampt]

Some of you stated you’d ‘do anything’ to prevent a Trump presidency. One noted crybaby recently defined a ‘successful Trump presidency’ as ‘his helicopter crashing into Trump Tower’. Social media is full of protest, hate, calls for assassination & violence.  The major media spent the last year painting Trump supporters as violent racists and worse… And now largely avoid condemning the real & current violence from the anti-Trump crowd.

Violence such as the riot in Portland, the beating of an old guy in Chicago.... and so forth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoCyiQeHfZg

Obama’s request:
“I believe that it is important for all of us, regardless of party and regardless of political preferences, to now come together, work together, to deal with the many challenges that we face”

1)   Do you honour Obama’s request?
2)   Do you condemn the anti-Trump violence & destruction? 

(Oddly, Obama has not commented on the violence at all, while LOE's in Portland deal with the riot.)

Curious to see some reasoned responses from the strongly anti-Trump members here.

For the first time in my life, I donated money to the ACLU and Sierra Club. I'm deeply concerned about the future of our rights and liberties, and the future of our planet.

My wife and I started researching volunteer opportunities in our community today.

Should I witness violence or hate speech against another human person, I'll do my best to stop it. At the very least, I'll do my best to support the victim.

This is my response to the election. It is all I know how to do.

Yes, I think protests must be peaceful and that any talk of assassination attempts is wrong.  I think talk of trying to pressure electoral college representatives to vote otherwise is also probably not helpful.  That said, I still find the thought of a Trump presidency to be utterly abhorrent and will likely participate in at least one peaceful protest.  I think, as does the poster above, , that this election is a call for me to love other people more actively, and I am looking for volunteering opportunities and will increase my current levels of donation to causes I feel strongly about.  Specifically those causes which I feel are threatened by this election.  I think that is a constructive response to this outcome, although it has taken me a few days to get to this point.  As a woman who has experienced sexual harassment and groping at work, this was a very personal election for me.  I also consider Hillary to be a hero and so had the sadness of seeing her lose in addition to the revulsion of what Trump embodies to me.

Somewhat ironically, I also wanted to go back to the church for comfort, but I feel the church has failed me and many other Americans in this, as 81% of white evangelicals voted for Trump. 

[Metric Mouse]

Thanks. Someone is very familiar with the electoral college, as they work in politics every day. Try again.

So you're just being willfully obtuse. Got it.

Edit - Here's an extra dose of cognitive dissonance for you:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/us-election-hillary-clinton-more-votes-popular-vote-any-candidate-barack-obama-donald-trump-a7413596.html

Why would number of votes from completely different campaigns matter? Is Donald Trump a more popular candidate, or better candidate, than John F. Kennedy  because he recieved 30 million more votes? Let's  not throw out numbers without context.  The 2016 election had one of the lowest rates of voter turn out in the last 40 years. Absolute numbers are almost meaningless, except to directly compare the candidates within an election.

The electoral college was set up to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority, and give diverse electorates more equitable say in leadership than pure mob rule.  Whether protecting minorities is important to a person often seems to depend upon if they are in the majority.

[Lagom]

I was merely pointing out the voting public supported HRC by a significant margin. As you say, our system enables a tyranny of the minority instead, especially since the minority has an advantage in influencing literally every branch of government. Opinions appear to differ on whether this is a good thing.

[sol]

I'm happy President Trump Was elected. President Trump is not a corrupt, insider politician like Hillary. President Trump will take action on important issues, like congressional term limits and negotiating trade deals. President Trump has an established history of employing and promoting diverse citizens from across the country. President Trump was elected with over 300 electoral votes, and will run the Executive branch for 4 full years. President Trump's supporters don't attack the police. President Trump replaces President Obama.

President Donald Trump.

President Donald J Trump

Donald!  We're so glad you found time in your busy schedule to join the MMM forums.  As happy as I'm sure we all are to have you visit us, shouldn't you really get back to that whole government transition thing you're working on?

[Metric Mouse]

I'm happy President Trump Was elected. President Trump is not a corrupt, insider politician like Hillary. President Trump will take action on important issues, like congressional term limits and negotiating trade deals. President Trump has an established history of employing and promoting diverse citizens from across the country. President Trump was elected with over 300 electoral votes, and will run the Executive branch for 4 full years. President Trump's supporters don't attack the police. President Trump replaces President Obama.

President Donald Trump.

President Donald J Trump

Donald!  We're so glad you found time in your busy schedule to join the MMM forums.  As happy as I'm sure we all are to have you visit us, shouldn't you really get back to that whole government transition thing you're working on?

I suspect that is too coherent to be President Elect Trump. He does have passionate supporters though.

[GuitarStv]

I'm happy President Trump Was elected. President Trump is not a corrupt, insider politician like Hillary. President Trump will take action on important issues, like congressional term limits and negotiating trade deals. President Trump has an established history of employing and promoting diverse citizens from across the country. President Trump was elected with over 300 electoral votes, and will run the Executive branch for 4 full years. President Trump's supporters don't attack the police. President Trump replaces President Obama.

President Donald Trump.

President Donald J Trump

Donald!  We're so glad you found time in your busy schedule to join the MMM forums.  As happy as I'm sure we all are to have you visit us, shouldn't you really get back to that whole government transition thing you're working on?

I suspect that is too coherent to be President Elect Trump. He does have passionate supporters though.

Wattaya mean?  Trump knows words.  He has all the best words.

[Gin1984]

Some of you stated you’d ‘do anything’ to prevent a Trump presidency. One noted crybaby recently defined a ‘successful Trump presidency’ as ‘his helicopter crashing into Trump Tower’. Social media is full of protest, hate, calls for assassination & violence.  The major media spent the last year painting Trump supporters as violent racists and worse… And now largely avoid condemning the real & current violence from the anti-Trump crowd.

Violence such as the riot in Portland, the beating of an old guy in Chicago.... and so forth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoCyiQeHfZg

Obama’s request:
“I believe that it is important for all of us, regardless of party and regardless of political preferences, to now come together, work together, to deal with the many challenges that we face”

1)   Do you honour Obama’s request?
2)   Do you condemn the anti-Trump violence & destruction? 

(Oddly, Obama has not commented on the violence at all, while LOE's in Portland deal with the riot.)

Curious to see some reasoned responses from the strongly anti-Trump members here.

For the first time in my life, I donated money to the ACLU and Sierra Club. I'm deeply concerned about the future of our rights and liberties, and the future of our planet.

My wife and I started researching volunteer opportunities in our community today.

Should I witness violence or hate speech against another human person, I'll do my best to stop it. At the very least, I'll do my best to support the victim.

This is my response to the election. It is all I know how to do.

Yes, I think protests must be peaceful and that any talk of assassination attempts is wrong.  I think talk of trying to pressure electoral college representatives to vote otherwise is also probably not helpful.  That said, I still find the thought of a Trump presidency to be utterly abhorrent and will likely participate in at least one peaceful protest.  I think, as does the poster above, , that this election is a call for me to love other people more actively, and I am looking for volunteering opportunities and will increase my current levels of donation to causes I feel strongly about.  Specifically those causes which I feel are threatened by this election.  I think that is a constructive response to this outcome, although it has taken me a few days to get to this point.  As a woman who has experienced sexual harassment and groping at work, this was a very personal election for me.  I also consider Hillary to be a hero and so had the sadness of seeing her lose in addition to the revulsion of what Trump embodies to me.

Somewhat ironically, I also wanted to go back to the church for comfort, but I feel the church has failed me and many other Americans in this, as 81% of white evangelicals voted for Trump.

Why?  They are elected officials (most of them except states like Penn which is just odd), part of being an elected official is you answer to your constituents and therefore your constituents get to voice their opinion to you.

[Metric Mouse]

Wattaya mean?  Trump knows words.  He has all the best words.

God, you're right. His vocabulary is Yuuuge. Everybody says so. He'll be the greatest tweeter in history.

Also, I still can't believe no one took his phone away during the campaign. Would it have been that hard to write a dummy program that let him tweet, and gave him hundreds of fake likes (or whatever Twitter has), while sending the tweet no where?

I mean, he still won, but that would have been one small thing that would have made it a little less painful for everybody.

[NoStacheOhio]

Wattaya mean?  Trump knows words.  He has all the best words.

God, you're right. His vocabulary is Yuuuge. Everybody says so. He'll be the greatest tweeter in history.

Also, I still can't believe no one took his phone away during the campaign. Would it have been that hard to write a dummy program that let him tweet, and gave him hundreds of fake likes (or whatever Twitter has), while sending the tweet no where?

I mean, he still won, but that would have been one small thing that would have made it a little less painful for everybody.

I thought they did take away his phone? Also, saw a pretty funny theory about him tweeting crazy shit on Saturdays because Ivanka converted to Orthodox Judaism, and she was observing the Sabbath, thus unable to stop him.

[TexasRunner]

I wouldn't expect much even handeness in this forum.  Perhaps consider it a way to experience viewpoints  counter to your own? I'm trying  to be positive here with all the negativity flying around...

True that.

I'll certainly admit that he's lewd and crass.  And definitely misogynistic to the extent that most (dare I saw all) men are. But insofar as labeling him a racist its your cognitive dissonance that painted that picture.  Trump won 8% of the black vote.  If he is nearly as racist as he has been painted, why did 1.4 million black voters pick him?...

Edit - And before you try to disagree with that, go back through the last couple pages of the thread and carefully note which posts asked questions or provided information that you completely ignored. Cognitive dissonance is certainly uncomfortable, but sometimes we have to face our demons.

And can you point out what, exactly, I'm ignoring?

My point is, the image of Trump that has been painted by the media and the destructive campaigning by both sides has resulted in a bitter election where we have riots and people polling for the electoral college to abandon our government's structure.  There is a window, right now, for the democratic party to step out of the echo chamber and find common ground that will advance the nation as a whole- but it only happens if people realize Trump isn't the Hilteresque monster that he is painted as. 

Just out of curiosity, did you watch his victory speech?  It might surprise you.


Edit: apparently I received a warning for the text in red above.  Sorry for offending anyone with my opinion and view of reality.  Please feel free to directly point it out next time.  Funny that my warning level was increased, but the mod didn't feel the need to modify or clarify this post in any manner.  Whatever.

[frugalnacho]

HRC isn't a criminal, never has been.  FBI director Comey cleared her himself.  My conscience is crystal clear. 

Trump admitted himself that he loves grabbing pussy.  Twelve women have stepped forward claiming assault.  Are ALL of them lying? 

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do.

Hateful coward checking in. Obviously the majority of Americans disagree with you.

Except not, because the majority voted for Clinton.

She got 47.5% which is not a majority.  There were also approximately 100M registered voters that did not vote. 

Clinton: 60,839,922
Trump: 60,265,858
Gary Johnson: 4,152,009
Jill Stein: 1,250,391

The cognitive dissonance on these forums is truly remarkable (this is not directed at gin's post, just a general observation of the entire forum in the last week).

[Johnez]

Some of you stated you’d ‘do anything’ to prevent a Trump presidency. One noted crybaby  MOD NOTE: Great way to start fostering compassion, understanding and proactive conversation.recently defined a ‘successful Trump presidency’ as ‘his helicopter crashing into Trump Tower’. Social media
...

Mod....   So one member of this forum repeatedly calls someone off the forum a crybaby on literally dozens of incidences and nothing is said, but reverse the situation where acroy calls someone off the forum a crybaby and now its an issue?  Do you not see the double standard at play?

I suspect you're misinterpreting what the reprimand is for.

The issue is not with the word.  Calling someone you're debating with a 'crybaby' is a bigger sin than calling someone that you're debating about a 'crybaby'.  In the latter you're showing that you're incapable of making a reasoned argument against the person being discussed.  In the former you're actively attacking a member of the forum, rather than even attempting to address the matter supposedly being discussed.

In other words, call anyone you want a crybaby, just don't address anyone here in this forum as a crybaby. It's a simple rule, don't insult others.

[TexasRunner]

In other words, call anyone you want a crybaby, just don't address anyone here in this forum as a crybaby. It's a simple rule, don't insult others.

Ya.  I didn't see that the comment was directed towards someone on the forum.  Didn't see it in the other thread.

[Northwestie]

HRC isn't a criminal, never has been.  FBI director Comey cleared her himself.  My conscience is crystal clear. 

Trump admitted himself that he loves grabbing pussy.  Twelve women have stepped forward claiming assault.  Are ALL of them lying? 

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do.

Hateful coward checking in. Obviously the majority of Americans disagree with you.

Except not, because the majority voted for Clinton.

She got 47.5% which is not a majority.  There were also approximately 100M registered voters that did not vote. 

Clinton: 60,839,922
Trump: 60,265,858
Gary Johnson: 4,152,009
Jill Stein: 1,250,391

The cognitive dissonance on these forums is truly remarkable (this is not directed at gin's post, just a general observation of the entire forum in the last week).

Ummm, actually, she did get the majority of votes cast.  If your issue is the number of folks who did not vote - that's a separate, albeit, significant issue.  Majority simply means, in this case, the highest number of votes.  You seem to be trending towards "greater than 50%"  which is a different threshold.



ma·jor·i·ty.

[məˈjôrədē, məˈjärədē]

NOUN

1.the greater number

[acroy]

Some interesting, thoughtful and rational responses. Thanks for those. Some dodges, c'mon don't be embarrassed. Some hysteria - relax, we'll be fine. Some interesting mod interventions, learning from those.

I'm really interested in further feedback on the original 2 questions from people who identify as strong anti-Trump. There is a lot of anti-trump hysteria and rhetoric, but I am truly interested in rational and reasoned responses.

For those interested, I personally am a proponent of small government. Fiscally & socially conservative. Blind justice and rule of law. It is not the government's role to be involved in many of the current 'hot topics' such as restrooms, marriage, heritage/color/gender etc of it's citizens. The role of government in these social matters is to have no role. I voted against Hillary Goldman Clinton and the Establishment by voting for Trump.

[MOD NOTE:  We've had this "Goldman" thing already.  It's awkward because the company with whom we're associating her is called "Goldman Sachs", right?  So if you want to call her the "Goldman Sachs" Candidate, you're being slightly inflammatory, but accurate, and this is the Internet and we can live with "slightly".  But when you leave out the "Sachs" and just call her "Goldman", inserting into her name even, we're all wondering if you're baiting the anti-semites.  See?]

[frugalnacho]

HRC isn't a criminal, never has been.  FBI director Comey cleared her himself.  My conscience is crystal clear. 

Trump admitted himself that he loves grabbing pussy.  Twelve women have stepped forward claiming assault.  Are ALL of them lying? 

Every person who thinks we should deport a child of an illegal immigrant should be required to do the job himself.  You need to go to their home, tell the parents that they need to leave, and then you need to find a home for that child or take them in yourself.  If you are willing to do that, then maybe I will take you seriously, but you aren't.  I feel the same way about pro-lifers.  When they are willing to adopt a child that would otherwise be aborted and pay for the medical care of that woman, then they can have a discussion with me.  Otherwise, you are just a hateful coward who wants others to do the work you can't bring yourself to do.

Hateful coward checking in. Obviously the majority of Americans disagree with you.

Except not, because the majority voted for Clinton.

She got 47.5% which is not a majority.  There were also approximately 100M registered voters that did not vote. 

Clinton: 60,839,922
Trump: 60,265,858
Gary Johnson: 4,152,009
Jill Stein: 1,250,391

The cognitive dissonance on these forums is truly remarkable (this is not directed at gin's post, just a general observation of the entire forum in the last week).

Ummm, actually, she did get the majority of votes cast.  If your issue is the number of folks who did not vote - that's a separate, albeit, significant issue.  Majority simply means, in this case, the highest number of votes.  You seem to be trending towards "greater than 50%"  which is a different threshold.

ma·jor·i·ty.

[məˈjôrədē, məˈjärədē]

NOUN

1.the greater number

Yes, greater than 50% is the definition I am using for majority.  So does the dictionary. 

I think you forgot the second half of the definition:

 noun, plural majorities.
1.
the greater part or number; the number larger than half the total

My issue with the comment was really two fold. 

1. She wasn't voted in by a majority of the populace, as a large portion didn't even vote.  60M out of 231M registered voters, which in no way can be construed as a majority of the populace.
2. Strictly counting the actual votes she still failed to achieve a majority.  She received a plurality. 

[Metric Mouse]

Ummm, actually, she did get the majority of votes cast. 

False.  The majority voted against her.

[Lagom]

Ummm, actually, she did get the majority of votes cast. 

False.  The majority voted against her.

And even more voted against Trump. Wheeee!

[Cwadda]

“Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media.  People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids - all while the very rich become much richer.

“To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.”

-Bernie Sanders

I like this statement Bernie put out.

[acroy]

haha!

[Northwestie]

Some interesting, thoughtful and rational responses. Thanks for those. Some dodges, c'mon don't be embarrassed. Some hysteria - relax, we'll be fine. Some interesting mod interventions, learning from those.

I'm really interested in further feedback on the original 2 questions from people who identify as strong anti-Trump. There is a lot of anti-trump hysteria and rhetoric, but I am truly interested in rational and reasoned responses.

For those interested, I personally am a proponent of small government. Fiscally & socially conservative. Blind justice and rule of law. It is not the government's role to be involved in many of the current 'hot topics' such as restrooms, marriage, heritage/color/gender etc of it's citizens. The role of government in these social matters is to have no role. I voted against Hillary Goldman Clinton and the Establishment by voting for Trump.

Thanks for a straight-forward response.

Been thinking and reading about this a bit.  The NYT over the past couple weeks has had some great coverage of the rust-belt and interviews with Trump voters in what was once solid blue counties.  Here's my summary - which, seems to parallel what I've heard in rural areas of WA and ID recently. 

Of most importance is jobs - don't give us your sympathy, figure out how to get better paying jobs out here.  Bernie talked to these folks - Hillary came off stiff or didn't even visit them.  The irony of course, is that Trump was born on third base and claims he hit a triple - but he hit the right tone.  And yes - he had spouts of misogyny, immigrant bashing, and general vulgarity - but folks were willing to chalk this up to "campaign rhetoric".   The other underlying theme seems to be tangled with the job losses and fear of larger forces - globalization, immigration, and changing demographics.  And Trump successfully tied these all together.

Will Trump change things in the rust-belt?  I seriously doubt it.  His senior advisor is an ex-Goldman Sacs executive and Brietbart flame-thrower, and he's lining up the typical cast of industry insiders that are less inclined towards working class/middle class than the dems. 

Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.  But I doubt it.  Trump is not so smart, he is not well-read and not up on the issues - thus when the inevitable domestic or foreign policy crisis erupts he'll have no grounding.  IMO.

[Northwestie]

Yes, greater than 50% is the definition I am using for majority.  So does the dictionary. 

Well - not the Oxford English Dictionary, which is typically the editor's standard.  Anyhoot - she garnered more votes than Trump - no disputing that.  So at the very least you could say he had a shakey victory and there is quite a division in the country.

[Lagom]

Some interesting, thoughtful and rational responses. Thanks for those. Some dodges, c'mon don't be embarrassed. Some hysteria - relax, we'll be fine. Some interesting mod interventions, learning from those.

I'm really interested in further feedback on the original 2 questions from people who identify as strong anti-Trump. There is a lot of anti-trump hysteria and rhetoric, but I am truly interested in rational and reasoned responses.

For those interested, I personally am a proponent of small government. Fiscally & socially conservative. Blind justice and rule of law. It is not the government's role to be involved in many of the current 'hot topics' such as restrooms, marriage, heritage/color/gender etc of it's citizens. The role of government in these social matters is to have no role. I voted against Hillary Goldman Clinton and the Establishment by voting for Trump.

Ah yes, you must be one of the ones who refuses to address Trump's advisors and known/suspected cabinet appointees. Don't be embarrassed, you have plenty of company among Trump supporters. Hint: there are quite a few  forces at play that would happily pass federal legislation forcing your socially conservative views onto the entire country (e.g. DOMA). But go ahead and keep telling yourself you support these decisions being left in the hands of the states.

And if you truly want to know my thoughts on your questions as well, rosaz nails it. You should read and reread the post and reflect on it sincerely, if you truly want to gain anything from this discussion. Ironically, you might note that she (and I, and others who lean left) also support a move away from a strong federal government in part because of these election results. Too bad Trump isn't going to take us anywhere in that direction.

[acroy]

“Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media.  People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids - all while the very rich become much richer.

“To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.”

-Bernie Sanders

I like this statement Bernie put out.

Sounds great, and re-enforces many folks cognitive dissonance re: Trump.
Voter exit data show the election was handed to Trump by minorities. Look at the data. Black, Latin, Asian votes swung heavily Trump vs previous elections. Completely surprising and almost zero reporting on this topic.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html?_r=0

[NoStacheOhio]

Some interesting, thoughtful and rational responses. Thanks for those. Some dodges, c'mon don't be embarrassed. Some hysteria - relax, we'll be fine. Some interesting mod interventions, learning from those.

You must hold some beachfront property in Kentucky ...

[acroy]

Ah yes, you must be one of the ones who refuses to address Trump's advisors and known/suspected cabinet appointees. Don't be embarrassed, you have plenty of company among Trump supporters. Hint: there are quite a few  forces at play that would happily pass federal legislation forcing your socially conservative views onto the entire country (e.g. DOMA). But go ahead and keep telling yourself you support these decisions being left in the hands of the states.

You're fighting a straw man, assuming many things about me and others. I'm not educated on cabinet appointees etc. And the thread was/is not about that.

And if you truly want to know my thoughts on your questions as well, rosaz nails it. You should read and reread the post and reflect on it sincerely, if you truly want to gain anything from this discussion. Ironically, you might note that she (and I, and others who lean left) also support a move away from a strong federal government in part because of these election results. Too bad Trump isn't going to take us anywhere in that direction.

VERY interesting. Self-professed 'left-leaners' changing stance on government's role based on election results. Very interesting indeed.

[Northwestie]

“Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media.  People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids - all while the very rich become much richer.

“To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.”

-Bernie Sanders

I like this statement Bernie put out.

Sounds great, and re-enforces many folks cognitive dissonance re: Trump.
Voter exit data show the election was handed to Trump by minorities. Look at the data. Black, Latin, Asian votes swung heavily Trump vs previous elections. Completely surprising and almost zero reporting on this topic.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html?_r=0

88% of blacks voted for Hillary
65% of Latinos and Asians voted for Hillary

.......you could describe this as - the turnout of blacks was less this year than under Obama's elections.  But that they "swung heavily" towards Trump seems misinterpreted.

Trump won 58% of the white vote - which by pure numbers just drowns any minority noise.  No - the vote was white folks that won it for Trump - clearly.

From your link:  His most significant support came from counties in the industrial Midwest where whites without a college education are the majority.

[bacchi]

Sounds great, and re-enforces many folks cognitive dissonance re: Trump.
Voter exit data show the election was handed to Trump by minorities. Look at the data. Black, Latin, Asian votes swung heavily Trump vs previous elections. Completely surprising and almost zero reporting on this topic.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html?_r=0

It's not being reported widely because it's not as big of a deal as you suspect.

There isn't any minority gain when compared to more relevant comparisons; that is, compared to a non-incumbent race, Trump didn't do any better than McCain or Bush.

[Lagom]

Ah yes, you must be one of the ones who refuses to address Trump's advisors and known/suspected cabinet appointees. Don't be embarrassed, you have plenty of company among Trump supporters. Hint: there are quite a few  forces at play that would happily pass federal legislation forcing your socially conservative views onto the entire country (e.g. DOMA). But go ahead and keep telling yourself you support these decisions being left in the hands of the states.

You're fighting a straw man, assuming many things about me and others. I'm not educated on cabinet appointees etc. And the thread was/is not about that.

And if you truly want to know my thoughts on your questions as well, rosaz nails it. You should read and reread the post and reflect on it sincerely, if you truly want to gain anything from this discussion. Ironically, you might note that she (and I, and others who lean left) also support a move away from a strong federal government in part because of these election results. Too bad Trump isn't going to take us anywhere in that direction.

VERY interesting. Self-professed 'left-leaners' changing stance on government's role based on election results. Very interesting indeed.

Nice dodge, but expected. You set yourself up for my "straw man" when you claimed you oppose federal action on social issues. I'm, not surprised you prefer not to engage on that difficult to defend angle.

Personally, I have always supported a smaller government, but that doesn't fit with the right-wing narrative about how a "liberal" ought to be. If more Democrats join me in this view as a result of the election, I'll be thrilled. I think our future can be a socially liberal version of the old school Republican party. We'll win every election.

[Jack]

“Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media.  People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids - all while the very rich become much richer.

“To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.”

-Bernie Sanders

I like this statement Bernie put out.

Damn it, now my anger over the primary is flaring up again...

We were so close to having a president that would have satisfied all but the most-sexist liberals and the disaffected middle class, but snatched disaster from the jaws of victory because of Hillary Clinton and her corrupt cronies.

[Cwadda]

“Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media.  People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids - all while the very rich become much richer.

“To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.”

-Bernie Sanders

I like this statement Bernie put out.

Damn it, now my anger over the primary is flaring up again...

We were so close to having a president that would have satisfied all but the most-sexist liberals and the disaffected middle class, but snatched disaster from the jaws of victory because of Hillary Clinton and her corrupt cronies.

Yup. Don't read the DNC emails on Wikileaks either. Those will make you truly sick to your stomach.