Question about US foreign military bases

[Sibley]

I saw this article https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/us/politics/international-criminal-court-troops-trump.html?action=click&module=Latest&pgtype=Homepage

About the US sanction ICC investigators who are investigating US troops.

And for whatever reason, my mind jumped to a different topic and I have a question. The US has military bases all over the world. The existence of these bases is I'm sure is part of US military power. Not much of a threat if all your ships are on the other side of the world/out of fuel, etc. The US is also in the process of annoying/alienating/pissing off most other countries. At some point, it might become desirable for other countries to hamper or reduce US military ability, and the US not having those military bases would probably do that. So, what's to stop these other countries from basically kicking out the US military?

[Travis]

They make a lot of money off of our presence.  And on occasion our presence has deterrent effects on their less hospitable neighbors.

[John Galt incarnate!]

They make a lot of money off of our presence. And on occasion our presence has deterrent effects on their less hospitable neighbors.

The "Fat Leonard" scandal is a notorious case in point.

[Sibley]

Ok, makes sense. But there's still a threshold where the cons outweigh the pros, whatever that threshold is.

And Iraq did vote to kick out the US military, though it apparently hasn't actually done so and it's complicated in their case.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/06/middleeast/iraq-us-troops-explainer-intl/index.html

What does it take to actually do it?

[Travis]

They make a lot of money off of our presence. And on occasion our presence has deterrent effects on their less hospitable neighbors.

The "Fat Leonard" scandal is a notorious case in point.

Bribery scandals notwithstanding, if you want a consistent inflow of US Dollars, host a naval base.

[Paul der Krake]

Ok, makes sense. But there's still a threshold where the cons outweigh the pros, whatever that threshold is.

And Iraq did vote to kick out the US military, though it apparently hasn't actually done so and it's complicated in their case.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/06/middleeast/iraq-us-troops-explainer-intl/index.html

What does it take to actually do it?

If there's political will, very little. The local government says "sorry but you're not welcome no more". The US may push back and point out how beneficial it is for both parties to have a base on their soil, but at the end of the day sovereign nations get to choose who comes and goes on their soil.

De Gaulle, famously skeptical of Britain and the US, gave all US and NATO military personnel one year to get of France in 1966. They haven't been back since. That doesn't prevent the two countries from being close allies and routinely doing military exercises together.

[sailinlight]

They make a lot of money off of our presence. And on occasion our presence has deterrent effects on their less hospitable neighbors.

The "Fat Leonard" scandal is a notorious case in point.

Bribery scandals notwithstanding, if you want a consistent inflow of US Dollars, host a naval base.

Not only that but you save a lot of money not having to stand up your own Navy

[sailinlight]

Ok, makes sense. But there's still a threshold where the cons outweigh the pros, whatever that threshold is.

And Iraq did vote to kick out the US military, though it apparently hasn't actually done so and it's complicated in their case.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/06/middleeast/iraq-us-troops-explainer-intl/index.html

What does it take to actually do it?

If there's political will, very little. The local government says "sorry but you're not welcome no more". The US may push back and point out how beneficial it is for both parties to have a base on their soil, but at the end of the day sovereign nations get to choose who comes and goes on their soil.

De Gaulle, famously skeptical of Britain and the US, gave all US and NATO military personnel one year to get of France in 1966. They haven't been back since. That doesn't prevent the two countries from being close allies and routinely doing military exercises together.

There's not that much of an advantage to the US being in France when we have a strong presence in Italy and Germany

[Travis]

Ok, makes sense. But there's still a threshold where the cons outweigh the pros, whatever that threshold is.

And Iraq did vote to kick out the US military, though it apparently hasn't actually done so and it's complicated in their case.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/06/middleeast/iraq-us-troops-explainer-intl/index.html

What does it take to actually do it?

For all the things we did to screw up Iraq, they're split on having us there. They're still a fragile government and need our help, but they also want to assert their sovereignty.  We left in 2011 on a phased withdrawal plan that was written in 2007, but just a couple years later the Syrian civil war kicked off, ISIL grew, and eventually they came close to overrunning Iraq.  Their army couldn't hold it together and they asked for us to come back. Since then we've kept a small presence. A sizable portion of their government didn't want us to leave in 2011, but we couldn't decide on a Status of Forces Agreement. (a treaty we keep with every host nation outlining our purpose, commitments, the cost sharing of our presence, and legal limitations)

It would take me a while to dig up the articles, but we drastically shrank our presence in Germany in the last 20 years. On the one hand you have the German government saying "the Cold War is over, we don't need you" and on the other you have local German communities afraid for their economies for the same reasons folks in the US complain when their local military base gets closed.  Then you go to a Middle East country where it's the opposite dynamic. The government wants us there because of Iran, but the locals don't because we're those damn troublemaker Americans.

[Sibley]

Thanks all. Interesting mix of factors that go into it.

[maizefolk]

I think there isn't one single answer for you because in each country it is different.

In Japan or South Korea I think it would take an AWFUL lot because they are worried about more militarily powerful neighbors (China and North Korea respectively) with stated grudges against them.

A country like Niger benefits enough economically (and is otherwise one of the poorest countries in the world) it seems likely they could be alienated enough to do so.

Now in western european countries, it would probably take a smaller amount of alienation. They'd still have an economic hit, but their economies are more robust otherwise, and they're not as fearful of powerful neighbors. ... although I actually wonder how the average german (or average german politician) perceives Russia these days.

European countries east of Germany mostly seem to want larger US military presences, not smaller ones.

[calimom]

It always  seems ironic  when Republicans whine about the costs of things like free  school  lunches  for  low income families and meanwhile  not batting an  eye when we have  800 military bases around the globe. Each one basically a US taxpayer funded small city.  Our defense budget is so bloated.

[Travis]

It always  seems ironic  when Republicans whine about the costs of things like free  school  lunches  for  low income families and meanwhile  not batting an  eye when we have  800 military bases around the globe. Each one basically a US taxpayer funded small city.  Our defense budget is so bloated.

While I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, go back and look at the political landscape when the Pentagon talks about closing US bases. It gets bipartisan real fucking quick when a politician's nearby base gets on the chopping block.

[LennStar]

So, what's to stop these other countries from basically kicking out the US military?

The fact that there is a US military presence :D
I think you underestimate the (eco-)political significance of a foreign military base, both for the Empire and the country involved. WHAT is heavily dependend on the country, but the HOW BIG is always BIG.

They make a lot of money off of our presence.  And on occasion our presence has deterrent effects on their less hospitable neighbors.

Depends. Germany pays for example. (But US soldiers pay a lot in Germany, of course)

ISIL grew, and eventually they came close to overrunning Iraq.

Both was btw. because of military actions by the US in that area.

but we drastically shrank our presence in Germany in the last 20 years.

About 3/4 since the End of the Cold War, but that is also true (even more) for Germany itself. 

although I actually wonder how the average german (or average german politician) perceives Russia these days.

As far away. Certainly not as a military thread. Countries like Estland, now that is a different story.

[habanero]

We also have some US troops on our soil, albeit a pretty small contingent (think it's up to 700). This is part of us being a member of NATO and partly for NATO to have infrastructure / troops available in a country bordering Russia. We have a short border with Russia way up north and the US troops are stationed quite far away from that region. There is some domestic debate as to if this US presence makes us more or less safe (not seen the numbers, but would bet public opinion is very strong "more"), but it's not really a big topic in the public debate here but the issue does pop up every now and then.

They seem to behave well, can't remember ever seeing any news story about any fuss with them apart from said political/security debate as to if they should be here in the first place.

[Travis]

ISIL grew, and eventually they came close to overrunning Iraq.

Both was btw. because of military actions by the US in that area.

The Iraqi Prime Minister at the time of ISIL's rise was Nouri Al Maliki. From the moment he took office he did everything he could to marginalize the Sunnis. In Baghdad he used the police as hit squads to convince entire neighborhoods of Sunnis to leave the city.  The Sunnis in Anbar started helping us a year later because they were being squeezed by Al Qaeda on one side and Maliki's police on the other. We recruited a separate Sunni security force and worked with them without Maliki.  Together we managed to capture or run out most of the AQ presence.  The remnants fled to Syria.  After we left, Maliki fired them all and left Anbar left wide open. There was a token Iraqi military presence. ISIL used the Syrian civil war a couple years later (which we mostly stayed out of) to grow its ranks. They spent a year overtaking Ramadi and Fallujah, and finally launched an attack on Mosul. Barely 1000 fighters convinced 30,000 troops with a full mechanized arsenal to flee. Suddenly the Iraqi Parliament started asking us to come back and fired Maliki as PM.

[Travis]

They seem to behave well, can't remember ever seeing any news story about any fuss with them apart from said political/security debate as to if they should be here in the first place.

Probably all too busy trying to figure out why the sun stays out or disappears for so damn long to get in any trouble.

[habanero]

A bit OT in this OT thread but this is a cool story

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-troops-iceland-natos-war-games-drank-beer-iceland-reykjavk?r=US&IR=T

U.S. troops landed in Iceland last week ahead of the start the largest NATO military exercise since the Cold War, and apparently, they left their mark in the most appropriate way possible: by drinking every last beer in the nation’s capital.

The local news site Vísir reports that the brewery Ölgerđ Egils Skallagrímssonar, which makes the popular Gull, had to send out emergency supplies to the bars. According to the sources of Vísir, the soldiers preferred local beers over imports and were very willing to sample different microbrews as well as the more popular standard lagers.

The local blogger Eiríkur Jónsson spoke to restaurateurs who said they had never experienced a similar situation. Bar owners who ran out of beer tried to solve the issue by borrowing from bars which were better stocked, while members of the delivery team from Ölgerđin were called out to help the bar owners cope, but “they were fighting an overwhelming force,” as Eiríkur puts it.

[maizefolk]

I had no idea the Coast Guard has overseas deployments. Learn something new all the time. Thanks, spartana.

[YttriumNitrate]

So, what's to stop these other countries from basically kicking out the US military?

For the answer to this question, see Cuba. They've been trying to kick the US out of Guantanamo Bay for more than sixty years.

[YttriumNitrate]

They make a lot of money off of our presence.  And on occasion our presence has deterrent effects on their less hospitable neighbors.

Indeed, the last time I checked, Poland had offered the US something like $2 billion to build a base there.

[Paul der Krake]

They make a lot of money off of our presence.  And on occasion our presence has deterrent effects on their less hospitable neighbors.

Indeed, the last time I checked, Poland had offered the US something like $2 billion to build a base there.

Wow, that's like, a a whole 24 hours of DoD spending!

[Sailor Sam]

I had no idea the Coast Guard has overseas deployments. Learn something new all the time. Thanks, spartana.

Yes no one seems to know that. Lots of us (and probably @Sailor Sam) have spent a lot of our time in other nations. At least at various port stops or joint training. In war time the Coast Guard ships and units who are serving in foreign areas comes under jurisdiction of the Navy and paint their ships and boats a funny grey color. They also use to have LORAN stations all around the world in very exotic places but all are shut down around 2010.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_Forces_Southwest_Asia

Strait of Hormuz, and USCG be like: “Damn! It feels good to shoot a pirate.” Mean while, the public be like:

[markbike528CBX]

Ok, makes sense. But there's still a threshold where the cons outweigh the pros, whatever that threshold is.

And Iraq did vote to kick out the US military, though it apparently hasn't actually done so and it's complicated in their case.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/06/middleeast/iraq-us-troops-explainer-intl/index.html

What does it take to actually do it?

If there's political will, very little. The local government says "sorry but you're not welcome no more". The US may push back and point out how beneficial it is for both parties to have a base on their soil, but at the end of the day sovereign nations get to choose who comes and goes on their soil.

De Gaulle, famously skeptical of Britain and the US, gave all US and NATO military personnel one year to get of France in 1966. They haven't been back since. That doesn't prevent the two countries from being close allies and routinely doing military exercises together.

There's not that much of an advantage to the US being in France when we have a strong presence in Italy and Germany

The strike on Qaddafi in 1986 was limited by the F-111's from Lakenheath UK going around France and Spain.
Even without bases, overflight might have been nice.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_United_States_bombing_of_Libya

Someone previously mentioned Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
https://www.cnic.navy.mil/regions/cnrse/installations/ns_guantanamo_bay.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_Naval_Base

[Nords]

So, what's to stop these other countries from basically kicking out the US military?

As long as they're happy to take our money (and our offers of defensive cooperation), we're happy to fight our wars on their territory.

In 1991 the Philippine government was in the process of not renewing the American lease on Clark Air Base.  Negotiations were tense and unproductive, and it looked like the U.S. Navy would also lose the Subic Bay base.

My submarine (USS NEW YORK CITY) was on a Western Pacific deployment, doing what submariners don't discuss.  Our next scheduled stop was a Singapore portcall.  However Philippine liberty has been legendary since at least the Battle of Leyte Gulf (perhaps even back to the Spanish-American War), and the crew didn't want to miss out on what might be our last chance to wallow in Olongapo City have more maintenance done in Subic Bay.  We talked it over with the chain of command, sent off a few messages, and ended up getting new routing to Subic.

I'd never been to Singapore and I'd already been to Subic Bay once, so I was equally happy with either location. 

We'd read reports of sporadic venting from a formerly inactive volcano over 20 miles north of Subic Bay, but it didn't seem relevant to our liberty plans.  When I checked in with my spouse, a Navy meteorologist, she was livid with anger and concern at our cavalier attitude about the volcanic activity.  I had plenty of time to regret reassuring her that we'd be careful.

It was nearly a week of fun & games until Mount Pinatubo erupted during Tropical Storm Yunya and dumped several feet of ash on both Clark and Subic bases.  We had wind gusts up to 120 MPH.  Several buildings on the base were destroyed by earthquakes.  Both bases were damaged to the point of needing months of repairs & cleanup. 

Our crew and our submarine survived, with injuries & damages.  I was the duty officer during the eruption and the surface OOD for our eventual evacuation.  It was the worst 36 hours of my life.  It was the worst 36 hours of my spouse's life too, as she practically lived in the PACFLT command center, monitoring our SITREPs until we reported our underway.

A month later, after evacuating the rest of the U.S. military personnel, families, and air-worthy aircraft from Subic & Clark, the U.S. military walked away from the negotiations (and from both bases).  The RP government eventually dealt with the repairs and cleanup.  (Perhaps with some disaster-relief funding from the U.S.)  Today both areas are largely industrial & commercial with some bases for RP military units.  The U.S. routinely makes portcalls and short-term deployments to both locations, with diplomatic clearance from the Philippine government.

[Michael in ABQ]

It always  seems ironic  when Republicans whine about the costs of things like free  school  lunches  for  low income families and meanwhile  not batting an  eye when we have  800 military bases around the globe. Each one basically a US taxpayer funded small city.  Our defense budget is so bloated.

The number of 800 bases includes places like Fort Bliss, TX which stretches north into New Mexico for 50+ miles and contains about 1.2 million acres and over 30,000 Soldiers as well as a National Guard Readiness Center that might have one full-time Soldier and on a drill weekend houses 30-50 Soldiers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases



The US has a 20-year lease for about 500 acres for Camp Lemonnier, the only permanent US base in Djibouti. Those annual lease payments of $63 million constitute about 10% of the government's annual budget. The base is also the second largest employer in the country with well over a thousand local contractors working on the base each day doing janitorial work, washing laundry, maintaining air conditioners, cooking and serving food in the galley, etc.

It's very beneficial for the country economically and in return the US has a naval presence and large shared runway with the adjacent international airport right next to the strategic Bab-el-Mandeb Strait between the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden (Indian Ocean). This allows replenishment of Navy ships and transportation elsewhere in Africa.

[Sibley]

So, what's to stop these other countries from basically kicking out the US military?

As long as they're happy to take our money (and our offers of defensive cooperation), we're happy to fight our wars on their territory.

In 1991 the Philippine government was in the process of not renewing the American lease on Clark Air Base.  Negotiations were tense and unproductive, and it looked like the U.S. Navy would also lose the Subic Bay base.

My submarine (USS NEW YORK CITY) was on a Western Pacific deployment, doing what submariners don't discuss.  Our next scheduled stop was a Singapore portcall.  However Philippine liberty has been legendary since at least the Battle of Leyte Gulf (perhaps even back to the Spanish-American War), and the crew didn't want to miss out on what might be our last chance to wallow in Olongapo City have more maintenance done in Subic Bay.  We talked it over with the chain of command, sent off a few messages, and ended up getting new routing to Subic.

I'd never been to Singapore and I'd already been to Subic Bay once, so I was equally happy with either location. 

We'd read reports of sporadic venting from a formerly inactive volcano over 20 miles north of Subic Bay, but it didn't seem relevant to our liberty plans.  When I checked in with my spouse, a Navy meteorologist, she was livid with anger and concern at our cavalier attitude about the volcanic activity.  I had plenty of time to regret reassuring her that we'd be careful.

It was nearly a week of fun & games until Mount Pinatubo erupted during Tropical Storm Yunya and dumped several feet of ash on both Clark and Subic bases.  We had wind gusts up to 120 MPH.  Several buildings on the base were destroyed by earthquakes.  Both bases were damaged to the point of needing months of repairs & cleanup. 

Our crew and our submarine survived, with injuries & damages.  I was the duty officer during the eruption and the surface OOD for our eventual evacuation.  It was the worst 36 hours of my life.  It was the worst 36 hours of my spouse's life too, as she practically lived in the PACFLT command center, monitoring our SITREPs until we reported our underway.

A month later, after evacuating the rest of the U.S. military personnel, families, and air-worthy aircraft from Subic & Clark, the U.S. military walked away from the negotiations (and from both bases).  The RP government eventually dealt with the repairs and cleanup.  (Perhaps with some disaster-relief funding from the U.S.)  Today both areas are largely industrial & commercial with some bases for RP military units.  The U.S. routinely makes portcalls and short-term deployments to both locations, with diplomatic clearance from the Philippine government.

Fascinating, thanks Nords. Glad your crew survived. Better a few injuries than a few deaths.