Author Topic: Poor Folks are Victims  (Read 97672 times)

MoneyCat

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #200 on: January 02, 2015, 10:58:12 AM »
So before the firestorm of Corporate Advertising caused poverty, we still had poverty.

You've picked an interesting windmill to tilt at there Don.
And less opportunity to get out of it with no social welfare programs to help. Anyone remember the Great Depression (OK so I'm not THAT old :-)!) and the bread lines and massive homelessness? Until things like welfare programs and SS were enacted you pretty much had no other options but to do something, anything, to survive or die. In comparison, today's poor, if they don't suffer from physical or mental illness or drug addiction, have more opportunity then ever to advance in life - maybe not become rich or even middle class, but to have a working class life. Even those people who make very bad choices in their lives, like the person above who had a friend who had 4 kids before 25 by for different men, has opportunity. She can be on welfare and go to school to learn a trade until the kids are old enough to be on their own and then she can find employment. That's not something people had the option for back in ye olde olden tymes before social welfare programs.

Sometimes I have to wonder about the complete lack of forgiveness the general public has for those who make mistakes in their lives.  Everyone thinks that if one is not 100% perfect in every way, then one is completely useless and should be left to the wolves.  I know that Christianity -- which promotes forgiveness as one of its central values -- isn't as popular as it used to be, but when did we all become so arrogant and callous?  Let him who is without sin cast the first stone (John 8:7).
Except that isn't anywhere near true.  Folks are fatigued that despite the incredible number of safety nets available today there are always more excuses: "It's greedy corporations spending money advertising", "It's the Rich not paying their fair share" etc.

Your argument, then, is that we need to reduce/eliminate safety nets?

The typical conservative knee-jerk response to anyone having difficulty seems to be "kick them while they are down."

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #201 on: January 02, 2015, 11:01:44 AM »
So before the firestorm of Corporate Advertising caused poverty, we still had poverty.

You've picked an interesting windmill to tilt at there Don.
And less opportunity to get out of it with no social welfare programs to help. Anyone remember the Great Depression (OK so I'm not THAT old :-)!) and the bread lines and massive homelessness? Until things like welfare programs and SS were enacted you pretty much had no other options but to do something, anything, to survive or die. In comparison, today's poor, if they don't suffer from physical or mental illness or drug addiction, have more opportunity then ever to advance in life - maybe not become rich or even middle class, but to have a working class life. Even those people who make very bad choices in their lives, like the person above who had a friend who had 4 kids before 25 by for different men, has opportunity. She can be on welfare and go to school to learn a trade until the kids are old enough to be on their own and then she can find employment. That's not something people had the option for back in ye olde olden tymes before social welfare programs.

Sometimes I have to wonder about the complete lack of forgiveness the general public has for those who make mistakes in their lives.  Everyone thinks that if one is not 100% perfect in every way, then one is completely useless and should be left to the wolves.  I know that Christianity -- which promotes forgiveness as one of its central values -- isn't as popular as it used to be, but when did we all become so arrogant and callous?  Let him who is without sin cast the first stone (John 8:7).
Except that isn't anywhere near true.  Folks are fatigued that despite the incredible number of safety nets available today there are always more excuses: "It's greedy corporations spending money advertising", "It's the Rich not paying their fair share" etc.

Your argument, then, is that we need to reduce/eliminate safety nets?

The typical conservative knee-jerk response to anyone having difficulty seems to be "kick them while they are down."

Unless it is a corporation, lol, then welfare is "stimulating the economy"--> (http://thinkbynumbers.org/government-spending/corporate-welfare/corporate-welfare-statistics-vs-social-welfare-statistics/)

davisgang90

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #202 on: January 02, 2015, 11:04:35 AM »
So before the firestorm of Corporate Advertising caused poverty, we still had poverty.

You've picked an interesting windmill to tilt at there Don.
And less opportunity to get out of it with no social welfare programs to help. Anyone remember the Great Depression (OK so I'm not THAT old :-)!) and the bread lines and massive homelessness? Until things like welfare programs and SS were enacted you pretty much had no other options but to do something, anything, to survive or die. In comparison, today's poor, if they don't suffer from physical or mental illness or drug addiction, have more opportunity then ever to advance in life - maybe not become rich or even middle class, but to have a working class life. Even those people who make very bad choices in their lives, like the person above who had a friend who had 4 kids before 25 by for different men, has opportunity. She can be on welfare and go to school to learn a trade until the kids are old enough to be on their own and then she can find employment. That's not something people had the option for back in ye olde olden tymes before social welfare programs.

Sometimes I have to wonder about the complete lack of forgiveness the general public has for those who make mistakes in their lives.  Everything thinks that if one is not 100% perfect in every way, then one is completely useless and should be left to the wolves.  I know that Christianity -- which promotes forgiveness as one of its central values -- isn't as popular as it used to be, but when did we all become so arrogant and callous?  Let him who is without sin cast the first stone (John 8:7).
Except that isn't anywhere near true.  Folks are fatigued that despite the incredible number of safety nets available today there are always more excuses: "It's greedy corporations spending money advertising", "It's the Rich not paying their fair share" etc.

Your argument, then, is that we need to reduce/eliminate safety nets?
Nope.  I think we need to outlaw corporations and all advertising to save the poor. 

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #203 on: January 02, 2015, 11:21:42 AM »
Poignant.  Glad we could convince you.  :D

LennStar

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #204 on: January 02, 2015, 11:36:01 AM »
There is one thing that didt crop up here (or I forget it) - for whatever reason.

Under the premise that poor means no (or not much) income and wealth, the only possibility to get away from beeing poor is to make money.
You can do that in 3 ways:
1) passive - not possible for poor
2) working self-employed - especially hard for poor people, because for most self-employed work you first need money to start and survive the first month
3) working for seomone else

But 3) simply cannot be the solution for ALL poor - there are more people who want to earn money then can be employed (and, for that goal, its the some for 2)
Even if poor A gets a job that just means that poor B, C and D cannot get this job. Or even that E lost its job.

Also, from mustachian perspective, we aim at making a lot less jobs by reducing consumption.

There is enough wealth to distribute.
The distribution through jobs is just impossible to succeed.

BBub

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #205 on: January 02, 2015, 11:56:38 AM »
I'm out.  This thread is full of whining, complaining wannabe revolutionaries grasping for a cause.  I'm going to go back to building my stash & associating with people who share my values.

Good luck with your war on poverty (but not too good because I'll be investing mostly in evil
Corporations).

MoneyCat

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #206 on: January 02, 2015, 12:15:59 PM »
I know I've mentioned this elsewhere, but if we're going to practice Social Darwinism then we shouldn't be half-assed about it and just practice full-on Darwinism.  Then, when poor people don't have the economic skills to survive, they can resort to using their other "gifts" like physical strength or marksmanship to overpower "less fit" pencil-necks and take their money.  As far as I can tell, that's how the French Revolution happened and I could see it happening again with the way things are going in America right now.

Social safety nets aren't perfect solutions, but they are a hell of a lot better than the alternatives.  We have plenty of historical events that demonstrate this to us (Russian October Revolution, French Revolution, Chinese Maoist Revolution, constant turmoil in African and South American nations, etc.)  Either you provide people with the opportunity to escape poverty or they will kill you.  It's unpleasant, but that's how the real world works.

infogoon

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #207 on: January 02, 2015, 12:41:42 PM »
Either you provide people with the opportunity to escape poverty or they will kill you.  It's unpleasant, but that's how the real world works.

That seems to be the cycle. The reason that we invented things like inheritance taxes, food stamps, and socialism was to lengthen the amount of time between "a society is founded" and "the poor people in that society launch a revolution and kill everyone".

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #208 on: January 02, 2015, 12:42:48 PM »
I'm out.  This thread is full of whining, complaining wannabe revolutionaries grasping for a cause.  I'm going to go back to building my stash & associating with people who share my values.

Good luck with your war on poverty (but not too good because I'll be investing mostly in evil
Corporations).

Bye!  Glad our bullying revolutionism has shown effective!

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #209 on: January 02, 2015, 01:23:08 PM »
I really shouldn't be so flippant, but it is so easy to reflect the flippancy of others!

ARGUMENT HIGHLIGHTS:
- don't use "victim," try "survivor" to increase agency
- lazy and stupid will always exist
- those in poverty are choosing to remain in poverty even though plenty of opportunities exist
- projection bias can prevent perception of the real struggles of poverty
- people willingly eat McD's, against their own financial interests
- LENTILS!!! http://www.zazzle.com/keep+calm+lentils+mugs
- accountability for actions is a major problem in the US, not just for poor people
- we should be able to bash on bad choices that those in poverty make just like we bash on bad choices that rich folks make!
- food desserts exist (or not) that make it difficult for good food choices to be made
- inherited poverty passes traits from generation to generation (in this context, bad choices)
- junk food is a pleasure not a necessity
- your own social class can prevent you from trying to improve yourself
- funding schools with property taxes creates a vicious downward cycle
- capitalism is what gives us everything we have
- local accountability and a minimum of waste on administrative empires through reduction of federal agency authority will decrease education problems
- if you don't graduate high school, you should not be considered a full citizen
- information is available, so it is your fault if you don't seek it out
- poor + vehicle = complainypants
- we need to eat poor peoples' babies
- we are all stupid and lazy, but those in poverty have less allowances
- focusing on children is the most efficient solution
- A school lunch program, properly run, would ensure that students from poor households get at least one good meal a day
- taking kids out of negative family homes is a complex solution, potentially helpful & potentially dangerous
- community is important to development
- Nature vs Nurture is the essential argument of poverty
- Battlers in Australia CHOOSE to live life the toughest they can!
- it is difficult to escape poverty, but possible if you are stubborn and have a strong will
- society should better manage the mentally unstable
- the key is determining the optimal point of equilibrium between expended resources and actual results
- Canada is awesome/horrible
- saying NO to ads is easy and effective
- the education to say NO to ads is a family responsibility
- pygmalion effect supposes that improvement is impeded when expectations are low
- social nets are a drain on society and are ineffective

PHEW!  I'm sweating.  Cheers to all.

DarinC

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #210 on: January 02, 2015, 01:54:17 PM »
What--there are no white people in poverty?!  Would you like to ban mcdonalds and force everyone to eat lentils?  The poor are poor for a reason--unintelligent and lazy.  They CHOOSE to eat at mcdonalds b/c they like the way it tastes and is "easier" than cooking.  They arent smart enough to realize "hey gee, eating this is making me both fatter and poorer at the same time...maybe I should eat some fucking vegetables!"  There is no "cure" for poverty.  Quit making excuses for people and labeling them a "victim."  It is up to people to be more intelligent and own up to their poor decisions.
That's flat out wrong in so many ways. Most people in poverty are there because of their situations, not because they're lazy or unintelligent.

Those situations can be due to physical or mental health problems, financial problems, factors in the environment, etc.. Sure, there will be bad apples, but in general poor people are not unintelligent or lazy.

Many people eat fast food because it's high calorie, tastes OK, and they don't have the time for anything else. In most places a 1.5 wage family at whatever the local minimum is will have trouble allocating time for anything, as well as stress, etc.. Fast food is just that, fast. This is compounded in some areas by having few grocery stores nearby. If you don't have a car, and the McBurgers is .5 miles away, while the supermarket is 3.5 miles away, and you have to watch the kids for the day then go to your 20 hour/week night shift, guess which place you'll likely choose.

http://frac.org/initiatives/hunger-and-obesity/why-are-low-income-and-food-insecure-people-vulnerable-to-obesity/

There are substantial barriers to people in poverty getting out of poverty. It's not impossible, but it is difficult for normal healthy poor people, and for people who are poor in part because they have problems with mental and/or physical health, it can be incredibly difficult if not impossible.

lithy

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #211 on: January 04, 2015, 06:03:43 AM »
In regard to the client earlier in the thread, she needed a new job.  Not even a new job with higher pay.  Because of the transportation required, she is effectively choosing to work for $8/hour.  If she could walk or bike to work, its more like $7/hour. 

Current Job
$12/hour
30 hours per week
$360/week income
~$140/week in vehicle expenses alone
$220/week net remaining income after simply going between work and home

Theoretical Job
$8/hour
30 hours per week
$240/week
~$25/week in transportation expenses (bus pass of a little over $100/month)
$215/week net remaining income after simply going between work and home

Preferable Job
$10/hour (this should be easily attainable in a lot of different administrative support jobs)
30 hours per week
$300 hours per week
Choose housing within walking/biking distance or if nearby housing is too expensive choose to live on a public transit line that services the job
She now just about ~15k annually and while not luxurious living, with the additional food stamp and other benefits can be a workable situation until her education is finished.

lithy

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #212 on: January 04, 2015, 06:41:52 AM »
A couple contentions reading through a lot of the posts about advertising. 

The first is advertising in public.  Advertising outdoors or in a place where you can see it when you leave your house is not "public" space.  That is, land owned by the people.  And while in principal I disagree with any public ownership of land it exists so there is a need to distinguish it from private land.  Public lands are held by the government in trust for the people (in theory).  Most land like this comprises our national park system.  Unless I just haven't been to the right national parks, I never see billboards in them, I might see small 'corporate sponsorship' type signage but that's about all I can think of.  Private property in the public space should not be* considered public in the sense of public property. 

*Of course with anti-smoking laws creating a hazy distinction between what people consider public, I feel as if this distinction is lost on most people.  A restaurant is not public space, it is private property that you are allowed on to receive a service if you choose.  If you don't like the smoke you can choose to not patronize the restaurant, the restaurateur would have no right to pass a law stating that you had to eat at his restaurant.  So, the idea that the client would have the right to tell the property owner how to manage his property seems preposterous to me.

The second thing to address is that mythical corporations seem to shoulder all of the blame when it comes to government policy.  Much like our poor helpless poor folks, it seems as if government politicians are hopeless and helpless in the face of advertising.  They only do what the corporations tell them to, or so I hear.  Mindless drones that jump when told how high.  Certainly none of the blame for how our bastardized capitalism works can be laid at their feet because how can you say no to a golf weekend?  Instead of asking your congressperson to pass a law banning whatever form of corporate advertising you don't like, how about instead following their votes and electing a principled representative that would vote in your favor?  Maybe we could ask them how voting for corn subsidies which mostly help to keep cheap foods cheap is helping the poorest people who are buying nutrient deficient foods with benefits.  I suppose because then you can't be a complainypants that will talk simultaneously about how all of the money in politics has corrupted it but that voting for a third party is throwing a vote away.

This conversation seems to get frustrating when posters want 'corporations' to shoulder the blame for how people live.  Not even poor people, all people.  We are all just robots programmed by mythical corporations to run on Big Macs and recharge in front of a glowing screen for a few hours each night.  Corporations have managed to infiltrate every portion of our lives that they'll offer you a free night at the Holiday Inn with 5 nights stayed with your mistress when they notice your pattern of being 'out of town' every Wednesday night.  Thus we need myriad social programs to combat the evil burden that corporations place on us.   

Tell me how these programs will be effective, tell me how long a person can receive these benefits, and tell me how people will be expected to use these programs as a step up rather than a bench to sit on.  I once told my family when the Swiss guaranteed minimum income proposition came up that I would gladly stop work tomorrow if the government told me I would get ~10k/year no questions asked.  They seemed upset that as an able bodied person I wouldn't work, I simply asked if that wasn't allowed under the proposed law. 

Long, mostly ranty post over.

GetItRight

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #213 on: January 04, 2015, 07:24:14 AM »
Poor folks make their choices. Yes advertising such as McDonalds can be tempting. The flipside is eatng at McDonalds can be relatively cheap too... Three $1 doubles is enough to sustain a person all day. Sure, lentils and rice are cheaper but my point is fast food does not have to be expensive, that's another choice. McDonalds spends $1 billion on advertising, but it is an entirely voluntary transcation that can be relatively cheap if you want it to, or you can opt to to partake.

The biggest evil that keeps the poor down is the government. The government subsidizes poverty to the tune of Trillions of dollars annually, so of course you get more of it. Poor people are used to living a poor lifestyle... So if they get a bunch of stolen money for doing nothing, it may not be worth actually working. Welfare, unemployment, social security/disability, food stamps/EBT, etc... Fit certain criteria and it can really pay well. Have a kid or two and get a raise, get to spend all your time with your kids. Heck that sounds like Mustachian values right there. This payout for fatherless families has destroyed the family structure of poor families, particularly hardest hit are black folks. Young black men cannot compete with what the government pays when they are just starting out with $10/hr or less jobs, so families are broken, crime promoted, children suffer, and the cycle continues for generations.

The government has a vested interest in keeping these people poor and dependent. The poor have a vested interest in the government stealing money from others at gunpoint and giving it to them. See how that works?

Reading material:
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2013/08/19/work-or-welfare-what-pays-more/
http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/the_work_versus_welfare_trade-off_2013_wp.pdf
http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2014/03/05/black-people-duped-n1803339/page/full
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/09/thomas-sowell/the-minimum-wage-is-anti-black-youth/
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/10/thomas-sowell/the-dissolution-of-the-black-family/
http://www.garynorth.com/public/11601.cfm

LennStar

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #214 on: January 04, 2015, 08:08:50 AM »
Poor folks make their choices. Yes advertising such as McDonalds can be tempting. The flipside is eatng at McDonalds can be relatively cheap too... Three $1 doubles is enough to sustain a person all day. Sure, lentils and rice are cheaper but my point is fast food does not have to be expensive, that's another choice. McDonalds spends $1 billion on advertising, but it is an entirely voluntary transcation that can be relatively cheap if you want it to, or you can opt to to partake.

The biggest evil that keeps the poor down is the government. The government subsidizes poverty to the tune of Trillions of dollars annually, so of course you get more of it. Poor people are used to living a poor lifestyle... So if they get a bunch of stolen money for doing nothing, it may not be worth actually working. Welfare, unemployment, social security/disability, food stamps/EBT, etc... Fit certain criteria and it can really pay well. Have a kid or two and get a raise, get to spend all your time with your kids. Heck that sounds like Mustachian values right there. This payout for fatherless families has destroyed the family structure of poor families, particularly hardest hit are black folks. Young black men cannot compete with what the government pays when they are just starting out with $10/hr or less jobs, so families are broken, crime promoted, children suffer, and the cycle continues for generations.

The government has a vested interest in keeping these people poor and dependent. The poor have a vested interest in the government stealing money from others at gunpoint and giving it to them. See how that works?

Reading material:
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2013/08/19/work-or-welfare-what-pays-more/
http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/the_work_versus_welfare_trade-off_2013_wp.pdf
http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2014/03/05/black-people-duped-n1803339/page/full
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/09/thomas-sowell/the-minimum-wage-is-anti-black-youth/
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/10/thomas-sowell/the-dissolution-of-the-black-family/
http://www.garynorth.com/public/11601.cfm

Beeing a slave is even better! Here you dont have to worry about money or how to get food, thats the responsibility of the slave holder! No worries at all as a slave!

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #215 on: January 04, 2015, 08:41:51 AM »
A couple contentions reading through a lot of the posts about advertising. 

The first is advertising in public.  Advertising outdoors or in a place where you can see it when you leave your house is not "public" space.  That is, land owned by the people.  And while in principal I disagree with any public ownership of land it exists so there is a need to distinguish it from private land.  Public lands are held by the government in trust for the people (in theory).  Most land like this comprises our national park system.  Unless I just haven't been to the right national parks, I never see billboards in them, I might see small 'corporate sponsorship' type signage but that's about all I can think of.  Private property in the public space should not be* considered public in the sense of public property

*Of course with anti-smoking laws creating a hazy distinction between what people consider public, I feel as if this distinction is lost on most people.  A restaurant is not public space, it is private property that you are allowed on to receive a service if you choose.  If you don't like the smoke you can choose to not patronize the restaurant, the restaurateur would have no right to pass a law stating that you had to eat at his restaurant.  So, the idea that the client would have the right to tell the property owner how to manage his property seems preposterous to me.

The second thing to address is that mythical corporations seem to shoulder all of the blame when it comes to government policy.  Much like our poor helpless poor folks, it seems as if government politicians are hopeless and helpless in the face of advertising.  They only do what the corporations tell them to, or so I hear.  Mindless drones that jump when told how high.  Certainly none of the blame for how our bastardized capitalism works can be laid at their feet because how can you say no to a golf weekend?  Instead of asking your congressperson to pass a law banning whatever form of corporate advertising you don't like, how about instead following their votes and electing a principled representative that would vote in your favor?  Maybe we could ask them how voting for corn subsidies which mostly help to keep cheap foods cheap is helping the poorest people who are buying nutrient deficient foods with benefits.  I suppose because then you can't be a complainypants that will talk simultaneously about how all of the money in politics has corrupted it but that voting for a third party is throwing a vote away.

This conversation seems to get frustrating when posters want 'corporations' to shoulder the blame for how people live.  Not even poor people, all people.  We are all just robots programmed by mythical corporations to run on Big Macs and recharge in front of a glowing screen for a few hours each night.  Corporations have managed to infiltrate every portion of our lives that they'll offer you a free night at the Holiday Inn with 5 nights stayed with your mistress when they notice your pattern of being 'out of town' every Wednesday night.  Thus we need myriad social programs to combat the evil burden that corporations place on us.   

Tell me how these programs will be effective, tell me how long a person can receive these benefits, and tell me how people will be expected to use these programs as a step up rather than a bench to sit on.  I once told my family when the Swiss guaranteed minimum income proposition came up that I would gladly stop work tomorrow if the government told me I would get ~10k/year no questions asked.  They seemed upset that as an able bodied person I wouldn't work, I simply asked if that wasn't allowed under the proposed law. 

Long, mostly ranty post over.

Great thoughts!

1) Public/Private:  what constitutes public space?  You mention national parks, but that seems depressingly narrow.  That would mean that I have no right to share space unless I am in a home that I pay for/rent or in a national park.  That's depressing.  I'm sure I'm missing something, so please explain further!

2) Governments/Corporations:  in 2014, lobbying expenses were $2,410,000,000 and there were 11,509 registered lobbyists.  It is not imagination to say that corporations are dominating our legislative process. (https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/)  You would be hard pressed to find a "successful" politician that has not received funding from corporate sponsors, no matter how you vote.  Our information system is set-up to obfuscate connections between politicians and donors.  Our media is supposed to bridge this gap but often is owned by the same corporate interests.

Poor folks make their choices. Yes advertising such as McDonalds can be tempting. The flipside is eatng at McDonalds can be relatively cheap too... Three $1 doubles is enough to sustain a person all day. Sure, lentils and rice are cheaper but my point is fast food does not have to be expensive, that's another choice. McDonalds spends $1 billion on advertising, but it is an entirely voluntary transcation that can be relatively cheap if you want it to, or you can opt to to partake.

The biggest evil that keeps the poor down is the government. The government subsidizes poverty to the tune of Trillions of dollars annually, so of course you get more of it. Poor people are used to living a poor lifestyle... So if they get a bunch of stolen money for doing nothing, it may not be worth actually working. Welfare, unemployment, social security/disability, food stamps/EBT, etc... Fit certain criteria and it can really pay well. Have a kid or two and get a raise, get to spend all your time with your kids. Heck that sounds like Mustachian values right there. This payout for fatherless families has destroyed the family structure of poor families, particularly hardest hit are black folks. Young black men cannot compete with what the government pays when they are just starting out with $10/hr or less jobs, so families are broken, crime promoted, children suffer, and the cycle continues for generations.

The government has a vested interest in keeping these people poor and dependent. The poor have a vested interest in the government stealing money from others at gunpoint and giving it to them. See how that works?

Reading material:
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2013/08/19/work-or-welfare-what-pays-more/
http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/the_work_versus_welfare_trade-off_2013_wp.pdf
http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2014/03/05/black-people-duped-n1803339/page/full
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/09/thomas-sowell/the-minimum-wage-is-anti-black-youth/
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/10/thomas-sowell/the-dissolution-of-the-black-family/
http://www.garynorth.com/public/11601.cfm

Interesting.  Is your opinion that Corporations are more altruistic?  Do they have less of an interest in oppression?  Perpetuation of an image-based consumption strategy that drives debt, despair, helplessness, and division of the populace is far more destructive than a reactionary assistance strategy.

I think revealing political/corporate affiliation is one of the strongest steps to take towards offering choice.  Until then, corporations are government are oppression.

GetItRight

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #216 on: January 04, 2015, 09:12:47 AM »
Interesting.  Is your opinion that Corporations are more altruistic?  Do they have less of an interest in oppression?  Perpetuation of an image-based consumption strategy that drives debt, despair, helplessness, and division of the populace is far more destructive than a reactionary assistance strategy.

I think revealing political/corporate affiliation is one of the strongest steps to take towards offering choice.  Until then, corporations are government are oppression.

Altruism is irrelevant. Neither government or business is inherently altruistic. Part of my point was that government relies on the poor for political power (the tyranny of the majority), the poor (not transient poor that move up) are content at that level (bread and circus, foodstamps and subsidized sports).

A business may be considered somewhat altruistic in the sense that to survive a business must produce something of value to a customer, must hire and compensate people to produce that product or service, etc. All of this is voluntary interaction mutually beneficial to the business owner(s), stock holders, employees, and customers. If it is not beneficial to all parties, the business eventually fails. There is no coercion in business, only voluntary interactions.



Business has no interest in oppression. If you think they do, go to any board of directors and propose borrowing the billions or more in capital required to built an army and that it be used for oppression, either of whatever individuals or of other businesses. They will look at you like you grew a second head. It would never happen for so many reasons it's just flat out absurd for a business to have any interest in oppression.

Government by it's very nature is not altruistic and is oppressive. What is government? Government is the monopoly on the use of violence within a given geographic area. Government is powerless unless it is willing to cage or kill over every law it creates.

The political/corporate affiliation you elude to can only exist when the government has used its monopoly on violence to extort the funds necessary to raise an army. Then there is a standing army (police, military, etc.) paid for with money stolen with the threat of violence and can enforce whatever laws and actions can be bought. Such a system is ripe for corruption, which is why you have the massive welfare/warfare state. Part of that is welfare to individuals, required for support of politicians to maintain the status quo. The other part is corporate welfare, which includes "defense", medicaid/medicare/obamacare, bank bailouts, auto manufacturer bailouts, etc... Until government steps back toa Constitutional and ethical role of protecting individual liberty there will be no end to the use of force to steal money from the productive and give it to the unproductive, while the government take a nice fat slice off the top to line their own pockets.


EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #217 on: January 04, 2015, 09:45:09 AM »
GetItRight, that was awesome!  Government is not doing us favors.  They provide false rhetoric while growing richer.  They utilize disagreement to prevent real discussion.  They lie, cheat, and steal.

What I don't understand is how you think business is dealing more positively with the situation.  Can you explain?  From what I have researched, corporations take great pride in "externalizing" as much expense as possible while gaining profit.  How does that prevent oppression?  Consider the privatization of water.  Does it make sense to allow a corporation control over this natural resource, allow a government to determine the system of distribution, or require individuals to figure it out themselves?

For me it comes down to understanding the stated goal of either business or government.  Businesses exist for profit, which requires reduced expense (not OVERALL reduction, just reduction of responsibility for expense: thus, externalization).  Government exists to protect, support, and encourage life, liberty, and happiness.  Whether they are fully accomplishing the stated goal is another story.

davisgang90

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #218 on: January 04, 2015, 12:35:10 PM »
GetItRight, that was awesome!  Government is not doing us favors.  They provide false rhetoric while growing richer.  They utilize disagreement to prevent real discussion.  They lie, cheat, and steal.

What I don't understand is how you think business is dealing more positively with the situation.  Can you explain?  From what I have researched, corporations take great pride in "externalizing" as much expense as possible while gaining profit.  How does that prevent oppression?  Consider the privatization of water.  Does it make sense to allow a corporation control over this natural resource, allow a government to determine the system of distribution, or require individuals to figure it out themselves?

For me it comes down to understanding the stated goal of either business or government.  Businesses exist for profit, which requires reduced expense (not OVERALL reduction, just reduction of responsibility for expense: thus, externalization).  Government exists to protect, support, and encourage life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  Whether they are fully accomplishing the stated goal is another story.
Fixed it for you.

DollarBill

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #219 on: January 04, 2015, 07:10:51 PM »
If I was provided food, water, clothing, education, housing, healthcare, air conditioning, cell phones, internet, cash then I too would do nothing. Where is the incentive?

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #220 on: January 04, 2015, 07:19:30 PM »
If I was provided food, water, clothing, education, housing, healthcare, air conditioning, cell phones, internet, cash then I too would do nothing. Where is the incentive?

Would you truly do nothing? Not even as a hobby? Lots of innovations came about as someone's side project. Of course, a lot also came about due to people being slaves to their employer. Just sayin'.

DollarBill

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #221 on: January 04, 2015, 08:30:11 PM »
All of those innovations were to better their life in some way. If everything was given to me then yes I would not do anything. I would just complain how bad I had it incase I could get more...why would you do more if you already had everything you wanted??

LennStar

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #222 on: January 05, 2015, 02:25:21 AM »
If I was provided food, water, clothing, education, housing, healthcare, air conditioning, cell phones, internet, cash then I too would do nothing. Where is the incentive?
In the human nature.
And if you woudl do nothgin, where is the problem anyway? That would save a lot of pollution then.

davisgang90

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #223 on: January 05, 2015, 03:15:26 AM »
GetItRight, that was awesome!  Government is not doing us favors.  They provide false rhetoric while growing richer.  They utilize disagreement to prevent real discussion.  They lie, cheat, and steal.

What I don't understand is how you think business is dealing more positively with the situation.  Can you explain?  From what I have researched, corporations take great pride in "externalizing" as much expense as possible while gaining profit.  How does that prevent oppression?  Consider the privatization of water.  Does it make sense to allow a corporation control over this natural resource, allow a government to determine the system of distribution, or require individuals to figure it out themselves?

For me it comes down to understanding the stated goal of either business or government.  Businesses exist for profit, which requires reduced expense (not OVERALL reduction, just reduction of responsibility for expense: thus, externalization).  Government exists to protect, support, and encourage life, liberty, and happiness.  Whether they are fully accomplishing the stated goal is another story.
Businesses have to deal more positively than government or they cease to be a business.  Worst case for government is some elected officials are replaced with new bodies who end up in the same routine of being beholden to special interests.  If you want to have an impact on our society, I think you start with real campaign finance reform (like no one donates, each candidate is given a small amount of money to advertise and that is it).  The other thing that would help is term limits for Congress.  The position was never meant to be a career.

DollarBill

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #224 on: January 05, 2015, 05:55:13 AM »
If I was provided food, water, clothing, education, housing, healthcare, air conditioning, cell phones, internet, cash then I too would do nothing. Where is the incentive?
In the human nature.
And if you woudl do nothgin, where is the problem anyway? That would save a lot of pollution then.

What??

LennStar

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #225 on: January 05, 2015, 10:11:05 AM »
What what?
Have you never heard of the word motivation or pollution?
Please explain your confusion.

wepner

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #226 on: January 06, 2015, 05:01:25 PM »
Business has no interest in oppression. If you think they do, go to any board of directors and propose borrowing the billions or more in capital required to built an army and that it be used for oppression, either of whatever individuals or of other businesses. They will look at you like you grew a second head. It would never happen for so many reasons it's just flat out absurd for a business to have any interest in oppression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company#Military_expansion

Literally one of the first corporations seemed to take quite an interest in oppression. 

SwordGuy

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #227 on: January 06, 2015, 09:01:27 PM »
Business has no interest in oppression. If you think they do, go to any board of directors and propose borrowing the billions or more in capital required to built an army and that it be used for oppression, either of whatever individuals or of other businesses. They will look at you like you grew a second head. It would never happen for so many reasons it's just flat out absurd for a business to have any interest in oppression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company#Military_expansion

Literally one of the first corporations seemed to take quite an interest in oppression.

Plenty of examples in American history of corporations hiring armed men to oppress people working for them.

Corporations - like any human-based organization with wealth and power - has to be kept in check or it will run roughshod over people.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #228 on: January 07, 2015, 12:54:16 AM »

lithy

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #229 on: January 07, 2015, 02:52:50 AM »
Business has no interest in oppression. If you think they do, go to any board of directors and propose borrowing the billions or more in capital required to built an army and that it be used for oppression, either of whatever individuals or of other businesses. They will look at you like you grew a second head. It would never happen for so many reasons it's just flat out absurd for a business to have any interest in oppression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company#Military_expansion

Literally one of the first corporations seemed to take quite an interest in oppression.

Plenty of examples in American history of corporations hiring armed men to oppress people working for them.

Corporations - like any human-based organization with wealth and power - has to be kept in check or it will run roughshod over people.

By who though?  The government?  In both cases mentioned above, the corporation was given preferential treatment by the government. 

I won't say that business can do no wrong or that it is moralistic, but when held to the same standards as the people, it has very few choices but to be generally good (or at least not bad).  When the government acts in collusion with business you tend to create problems.

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #230 on: January 07, 2015, 07:24:16 AM »
1) Oppression does not require an army.

2) I'd like to flip the burden to the "business is beautiful" crowd: name one corporation that has not been shown to have horrible practices regarding either nature, society, or individuals.

wepner

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #231 on: January 07, 2015, 07:41:46 AM »
Business has no interest in oppression. If you think they do, go to any board of directors and propose borrowing the billions or more in capital required to built an army and that it be used for oppression, either of whatever individuals or of other businesses. They will look at you like you grew a second head. It would never happen for so many reasons it's just flat out absurd for a business to have any interest in oppression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company#Military_expansion

Literally one of the first corporations seemed to take quite an interest in oppression.

Plenty of examples in American history of corporations hiring armed men to oppress people working for them.

Corporations - like any human-based organization with wealth and power - has to be kept in check or it will run roughshod over people.

By who though?  The government?  In both cases mentioned above, the corporation was given preferential treatment by the government. 

I won't say that business can do no wrong or that it is moralistic, but when held to the same standards as the people, it has very few choices but to be generally good (or at least not bad).  When the government acts in collusion with business you tend to create problems.

By who though? The government?

Please explain what preferential treatment the East India company got, and how amassing an army of thousands of private soldiers naturally follows that preferential treatment.

Are you saying if the English government didn't exist that the same group of rich dudes wouldn't have pooled their money in the same exact way and tried to gain the resources using the same strong arm tactics they ended up using? What makes you think that?

lithy

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #232 on: January 07, 2015, 08:47:39 AM »
Business has no interest in oppression. If you think they do, go to any board of directors and propose borrowing the billions or more in capital required to built an army and that it be used for oppression, either of whatever individuals or of other businesses. They will look at you like you grew a second head. It would never happen for so many reasons it's just flat out absurd for a business to have any interest in oppression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company#Military_expansion

Literally one of the first corporations seemed to take quite an interest in oppression.

Plenty of examples in American history of corporations hiring armed men to oppress people working for them.

Corporations - like any human-based organization with wealth and power - has to be kept in check or it will run roughshod over people.

By who though?  The government?  In both cases mentioned above, the corporation was given preferential treatment by the government. 

I won't say that business can do no wrong or that it is moralistic, but when held to the same standards as the people, it has very few choices but to be generally good (or at least not bad).  When the government acts in collusion with business you tend to create problems.

By who though? The government?

Please explain what preferential treatment the East India company got, and how amassing an army of thousands of private soldiers naturally follows that preferential treatment.

Are you saying if the English government didn't exist that the same group of rich dudes wouldn't have pooled their money in the same exact way and tried to gain the resources using the same strong arm tactics they ended up using? What makes you think that?

EIC had a royal charter for a monopoly on Indian trade for nearly 100 years before the crown attempted to allow competition.  Of course, by that point they were locking the barn after the cow was out, so they renewed the charter for another 100+ years.  They had sole rights to trade, there was no one to subjugate except Indians.  Had there been competing companies, I doubt the crown would have let them slaughter each other for territorial control. 

In any case, it looks to me like they began using troops in 1750 and instead of being held accountable the crown simply signed on in 1773.  According to a regulatory act, "acquisition of sovereignty by the subjects of the Crown is on behalf of the Crown and not in its own right."

A government not being held accountable by its people can commit acts like the EIC in India.  So yes, you would have to rely on the government to treat people (and by extension, companies) equally.  If they don't, they should be held accountable by vote or revolution.

davisgang90

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #233 on: January 07, 2015, 10:08:10 AM »
1) Oppression does not require an army.

2) I'd like to flip the burden to the "business is beautiful" crowd: name one corporation that has not been shown to have horrible practices regarding either nature, society, or individuals.
Deborah Grooms Photography http://www.deborahgrooms.com/ couldn't find any complaints about horrible practices. 

Oh did you not mean an LLC?  How about Google?  Their goal is to be carbon neutral, I don't think they have had a huge negative impact on society and their employees are satisfied.  Of course their main business is the dreaded "advertising" you hate so much.

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #234 on: January 07, 2015, 10:22:10 AM »
1) Oppression does not require an army.

2) I'd like to flip the burden to the "business is beautiful" crowd: name one corporation that has not been shown to have horrible practices regarding either nature, society, or individuals.
Deborah Grooms Photography http://www.deborahgrooms.com/ couldn't find any complaints about horrible practices. 

Oh did you not mean an LLC?  How about Google?  Their goal is to be carbon neutral, I don't think they have had a huge negative impact on society and their employees are satisfied.  Of course their main business is the dreaded "advertising" you hate so much.

Google owns you, bro. 

- http://www.techvibes.com/blog/google-owns-you-2014-04-22
- http://www.salon.com/2014/02/05/4_ways_google_is_destroying_privacy_and_collecting_your_data_partner/

LennStar

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #235 on: January 07, 2015, 11:37:50 AM »
1) Oppression does not require an army.

2) I'd like to flip the burden to the "business is beautiful" crowd: name one corporation that has not been shown to have horrible practices regarding either nature, society, or individuals.
Deborah Grooms Photography http://www.deborahgrooms.com/ couldn't find any complaints about horrible practices. 

Oh did you not mean an LLC?  How about Google?  Their goal is to be carbon neutral, I don't think they have had a huge negative impact on society and their employees are satisfied.  Of course their main business is the dreaded "advertising" you hate so much.
Google is constantly syping on people, not respecting laws by democratic governments and so on.
Google is definitely NOT not evil.

davisgang90

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #236 on: January 07, 2015, 11:48:17 AM »
1) Oppression does not require an army.

2) I'd like to flip the burden to the "business is beautiful" crowd: name one corporation that has not been shown to have horrible practices regarding either nature, society, or individuals.
Deborah Grooms Photography http://www.deborahgrooms.com/ couldn't find any complaints about horrible practices. 

Oh did you not mean an LLC?  How about Google?  Their goal is to be carbon neutral, I don't think they have had a huge negative impact on society and their employees are satisfied.  Of course their main business is the dreaded "advertising" you hate so much.

Google owns you, bro. 

- http://www.techvibes.com/blog/google-owns-you-2014-04-22
- http://www.salon.com/2014/02/05/4_ways_google_is_destroying_privacy_and_collecting_your_data_partner/
Lol, just wanted to see if you were paying attention.  I picked them specifically based on your hatred of all things advertising.  Google takes that to infinity.

You didn't find any dirt on Debbie Grooms though did you?  Her business is a corporation.

As for Google, they own you, they only rent me.

libertarian4321

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #237 on: January 07, 2015, 01:26:29 PM »


Poor Folks are victims b/c we are all victims, but they experience the worst of it and are statistically less likely to escape it.

Damn it.  I was born poor, so there is no way I can get ahead.  I may as well just give up.

And I thought that after the first million or two, I was doing okay.  Guess I was wrong.

Now, I realize I'm just another victim of evil corporations and advertising (or whatever this guy was ranting about).

Boo Hoo

SwordGuy

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #238 on: January 07, 2015, 08:07:47 PM »
2) I'd like to flip the burden to the "business is beautiful" crowd: name one corporation that has not been shown to have horrible practices regarding either nature, society, or individuals.

Tactics, Inc.   It was a great company to work for or hire.  Treated its customers and employees well.   Didn't pollute, oppress, etc.
Software Research and Design.  My own company.   Haven't oppressed anyone yet.  Ditto on pollution. 
Just hired a plumber and an electrician.   They both own their own companies.   Great work, good price, good service.
I run into fine corporations all the time.

The world is full of them.

Every labor union is incorporated...  (Though some of them have been oppressive...)
Most non-profits are incorporated...

The poster's point above is inane.

iris lily

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #239 on: January 08, 2015, 10:03:58 PM »


Poor Folks are victims b/c we are all victims, but they experience the worst of it and are statistically less likely to escape it.

Damn it.  I was born poor, so there is no way I can get ahead.  I may as well just give up.

And I thought that after the first million or two, I was doing okay.  Guess I was wrong.

Now, I realize I'm just another victim of evil corporations and advertising (or whatever this guy was ranting about).

Boo Hoo

Just send me all of your money and fulfill your destiny. Stop fighting it!

  :)

Cressida

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #240 on: January 09, 2015, 02:13:34 AM »
Totally. It's the same problem I have with modern Western feminism - it treats women like incompetent children, incapable of making free decisions, needing all kinds of protection and support. I find that highly offensive to women.

This is an old comment that I just came across, but I'm curious about it. Is there an example of this "modern Western feminism" that's particularly illustrative that you're able to share? My feeling is that anyone who feels this way is not actually a feminist, so I'd be interested to read examples of what you're objecting to to see if my feeling is accurate.

Zikoris

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #241 on: January 09, 2015, 05:22:28 AM »
Totally. It's the same problem I have with modern Western feminism - it treats women like incompetent children, incapable of making free decisions, needing all kinds of protection and support. I find that highly offensive to women.

This is an old comment that I just came across, but I'm curious about it. Is there an example of this "modern Western feminism" that's particularly illustrative that you're able to share? My feeling is that anyone who feels this way is not actually a feminist, so I'd be interested to read examples of what you're objecting to to see if my feeling is accurate.

Modern feminism seems to deny women's agency as a standard procedure, so no problem!

Choose to not pursue a career and focus on family? Brainwashed by the patriarchy!

Choose to become a nurse rather than an engineer? Societal pressures decided that for you!

Choose to do more than half the housework or child care in your relationship? Societal expectations of women, oh, and this is a Really Serious Problem that Society Needs to Fix!

Then of course there's demands for affirmative action, quotas on boards, women-only scholarships, etc.

And my personal favourite: Choose not to identify as a feminist? You clearly have no understanding of what feminism is, and would call yourself a feminist if only you were educated! In other words, the only correct conclusion a person can come to is to agree with feminism - anything else is a socially-pressured choice caused by the patriarchy and internalized misogyny.

davisgang90

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #242 on: January 09, 2015, 05:29:14 AM »
Bravo!  ^^^^

lakemom

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #243 on: January 09, 2015, 07:35:24 AM »
Totally. It's the same problem I have with modern Western feminism - it treats women like incompetent children, incapable of making free decisions, needing all kinds of protection and support. I find that highly offensive to women.

This is an old comment that I just came across, but I'm curious about it. Is there an example of this "modern Western feminism" that's particularly illustrative that you're able to share? My feeling is that anyone who feels this way is not actually a feminist, so I'd be interested to read examples of what you're objecting to to see if my feeling is accurate.

Modern feminism seems to deny women's agency as a standard procedure, so no problem!

Choose to not pursue a career and focus on family? Brainwashed by the patriarchy!

Choose to become a nurse rather than an engineer? Societal pressures decided that for you!

Choose to do more than half the housework or child care in your relationship? Societal expectations of women, oh, and this is a Really Serious Problem that Society Needs to Fix!

Then of course there's demands for affirmative action, quotas on boards, women-only scholarships, etc.

And my personal favourite: Choose not to identify as a feminist? You clearly have no understanding of what feminism is, and would call yourself a feminist if only you were educated! In other words, the only correct conclusion a person can come to is to agree with feminism - anything else is a socially-pressured choice caused by the patriarchy and internalized misogyny.

Very well stated!!  For at least 25 years I've made the statement the REAL feminine empowerment is to support a woman in whatever her life choices are...whether becoming a stay at home parent to 6 or becoming a single rocket scientist.  NOT condemning all women who make traditional choices while exalting those who follow a "traditionally male" life path.

Cassie

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #244 on: January 09, 2015, 11:23:46 AM »
totally agree Spartana!!!!!

Cressida

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #245 on: January 09, 2015, 12:28:41 PM »
Totally. It's the same problem I have with modern Western feminism - it treats women like incompetent children, incapable of making free decisions, needing all kinds of protection and support. I find that highly offensive to women.

This is an old comment that I just came across, but I'm curious about it. Is there an example of this "modern Western feminism" that's particularly illustrative that you're able to share? My feeling is that anyone who feels this way is not actually a feminist, so I'd be interested to read examples of what you're objecting to to see if my feeling is accurate.

Modern feminism seems to deny women's agency as a standard procedure, so no problem!

Choose to not pursue a career and focus on family? Brainwashed by the patriarchy!

Choose to become a nurse rather than an engineer? Societal pressures decided that for you!

Choose to do more than half the housework or child care in your relationship? Societal expectations of women, oh, and this is a Really Serious Problem that Society Needs to Fix!

Then of course there's demands for affirmative action, quotas on boards, women-only scholarships, etc.

And my personal favourite: Choose not to identify as a feminist? You clearly have no understanding of what feminism is, and would call yourself a feminist if only you were educated! In other words, the only correct conclusion a person can come to is to agree with feminism - anything else is a socially-pressured choice caused by the patriarchy and internalized misogyny.

You misunderstood me. When I said "is there an example," I meant an example of a self-described feminist actually saying these things, like in a book or article. Without actual quotes from actual feminists, your argument that "feminism treats women like incompetent children" remains unproven.

marblejane

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #246 on: January 09, 2015, 12:36:50 PM »
Bingo, Cressida.

MDM

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #247 on: January 09, 2015, 12:44:54 PM »
You misunderstood me. When I said "is there an example," I meant an example of a self-described feminist actually saying these things, like in a book or article. Without actual quotes from actual feminists, your argument that "feminism treats women like incompetent children" remains unproven.
Don't know whether Blonde Lawyer would describe herself as a feminist, but the comment in http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/looking-for-thoughts-or-advice-wife-taking-a-year-off-with-newborn/msg511483/#msg511483 seems an example of what Zikoris describes:

If she decides to quit work until the youngest goes back to school..or forever,  you should support that decision too.
Sorry, but I don't agree with the "or forever" part of your statement.  If they have enough money at that point to retire early and be financially independent than sure.  But I disagree that an able bodied adult that isn't taking care of the kids should just stay home all day and not contribute towards the family's end financial goal.

davisgang90

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #248 on: January 09, 2015, 01:46:25 PM »
Totally. It's the same problem I have with modern Western feminism - it treats women like incompetent children, incapable of making free decisions, needing all kinds of protection and support. I find that highly offensive to women.

This is an old comment that I just came across, but I'm curious about it. Is there an example of this "modern Western feminism" that's particularly illustrative that you're able to share? My feeling is that anyone who feels this way is not actually a feminist, so I'd be interested to read examples of what you're objecting to to see if my feeling is accurate.

Modern feminism seems to deny women's agency as a standard procedure, so no problem!

Choose to not pursue a career and focus on family? Brainwashed by the patriarchy!

Choose to become a nurse rather than an engineer? Societal pressures decided that for you!

Choose to do more than half the housework or child care in your relationship? Societal expectations of women, oh, and this is a Really Serious Problem that Society Needs to Fix!

Then of course there's demands for affirmative action, quotas on boards, women-only scholarships, etc.

And my personal favourite: Choose not to identify as a feminist? You clearly have no understanding of what feminism is, and would call yourself a feminist if only you were educated! In other words, the only correct conclusion a person can come to is to agree with feminism - anything else is a socially-pressured choice caused by the patriarchy and internalized misogyny.

You misunderstood me. When I said "is there an example," I meant an example of a self-described feminist actually saying these things, like in a book or article. Without actual quotes from actual feminists, your argument that "feminism treats women like incompetent children" remains unproven.
This article on the Jezebel site seems to tick many of the boxes mentioned above.  http://jezebel.com/5991343/the-feminist-housewife-is-such-bullshit

Here's another: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/06/1-wives-are-helping-kill-feminism-and-make-the-war-on-women-possible/258431/

Or this one: http://gawker.com/kaley-cuoco-im-not-a-feminist-and-i-love-feeling-like-1676352429
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 02:02:57 PM by davisgang90 »

Cressida

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #249 on: January 09, 2015, 03:40:25 PM »