Author Topic: Poor Folks are Victims  (Read 97580 times)

iris lily

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #150 on: December 31, 2014, 09:06:07 AM »
I applaud the use of the word No in society, that's what I use to keep myself from buying stuff I don't need.  Not sure why we need to protect society from advertisers.

What other portions of free speech and free enterprise do you propose restricting?  Why not educate people instead?

For me, shopping can be a game. I'll decide that I am interested in a product, I'll go to a store, look it over, and if not sufficiently grabbed by it, I'll leave thinking "yay! I won/they lost." My real goal, deeply seated in my brain, is to get out of the store before buying anything.

There are many instances over the years where DH and I can easily afford several things but leave the store because I quickly become board with all of the choices and I decide to keep what we've got.

"education" about ads is good, but to me it's part of imparting family values at the dinner table. I remember my parents making sarcastic remarks about advertisements and other influential societal messages in my youth, and that trained me up to be skeptical about consumer messages.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 09:10:09 AM by iris lily »

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #151 on: December 31, 2014, 09:17:09 AM »
What other portions of free speech and free enterprise do you propose restricting?  Why not educate people instead?

1) Restrict the ability for corporations to target children
2) Eliminate corporate sponsorship of governing bodies
3) Eliminate corporate/public adspace
4) Eliminate corporate/public partnerships

Free speech should belong to people, not corporations.  When you work for a corporation, your interests are subverted to the interests of profit.

Free enterprise is a joke.  It has historically been a song of the wealthy and has been used to support slavery, child labor, and the rape of natural resources.

Right, you're the one who dislikes capitalism, the system of the world-wide economy.  Cause all the other systems work so much better. 

Who made the computer you use to access the internet?  Government? Non-profit? or a For-Profit Corporation?  Why?

I have discussed benefits that Capitalism can provide, but that does not mean that unchecked Capitalism - which we have been moving closer and closer towards since deregulation of commerce and communication in the 1980s - is a healthy solution.  Corporate driven Capitalism has imposed itself on Democracy.  It has claimed to be the victim of unions, regulators/regulations, academia, and do-gooders, all the while gaining power, destroying the environment, demoralizing workers, stratifying citizens, misinforming, manipulating, creating consumer zombies, buying politicians, and blaming the individual.

Why do you believe that Capitalism is the best solution?  Is ubiquity really a strong argument for suitability?  Do you have any thoughts on the 4 recommendations posted above, or the other recommendations posed throughout this thread?

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #152 on: December 31, 2014, 09:19:02 AM »
Quote
I could say that I "clawed" my way higher up the middle-class ladder through hard work and determination, but I would not be where I am if I were not male, white, supported by my family, with a strong body (military) and natural curiosity (data analysis).  I'm lucky!  I hope we can all seriously appreciate luck when we experience it.

If there are any bootstrappers left in here that havent been turned off by all the mushy social oppression speak, I'd love to hear some discussion from (polite) opposing viewpoints

Bootstrapper here again! I did crappy menial jobs for years, eventually working my way up to entry-level office work (think photocopying and making coffee). Could I have "clawed" by way up the corporate ladder from humble beginnings? Who knows, because I couldn't be bothered to try! Why not? Because it's completely unnecessary. I can live a great life, travel frequently, and retire young while working as an office clerk in a low stress, relaxed office.

You could say I had some luck, but it was limited mostly to the kinds most people we're talking about also have, like living in a civilized country, public schooling, public libraries, internet access (well, we didn't have this until  I was a teenager), and having food, clothing, and shelter. Honestly, if your goal is just to live a healthy and comfortable life, you DON'T NEED special advantages, family connections, or any of that. You just need to seek out free, readily available information.
Another bootstrapper here. Dad walked away from the family and left my SAHP of 15 years Mom and us 3 kids homeless. Moved in with Grandma into her 500 sf apt. Mom, a stubborn German immigrant who didn't even drive and would never go on welfare or ask my Dad for anything, worked 2 full time minimum wage factory jobs until she got on her feet (and learned to drive, got her license and a car) and gt us a place to live. Went to school to re-train in her old data entry pre-marriage job and eventually got a decent paying job. Bought a modest house. Us kids worked since we were 14 doing whatever. I joined the Coast Guard after high school, stayed many years, learned a trade, did cool interesting stuff, paid for college, got a government job when I got out, got a pension (combo military time and gov. job time), bought a house, paid it off fast, saved some money, retired at 42 debt free and with a stash to live on until I would be old enough to get my pension (at age 50).  I was lucky but I was also very hard working and determined to do whatever was needed to be self-sufficient and independent.

You and yours sound like badasses!!  Definitely not the norm.

davisgang90

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #153 on: December 31, 2014, 09:31:07 AM »
What other portions of free speech and free enterprise do you propose restricting?  Why not educate people instead?

1) Restrict the ability for corporations to target children
2) Eliminate corporate sponsorship of governing bodies
3) Eliminate corporate/public adspace
4) Eliminate corporate/public partnerships

Free speech should belong to people, not corporations.  When you work for a corporation, your interests are subverted to the interests of profit.

Free enterprise is a joke.  It has historically been a song of the wealthy and has been used to support slavery, child labor, and the rape of natural resources.

Right, you're the one who dislikes capitalism, the system of the world-wide economy.  Cause all the other systems work so much better. 

Who made the computer you use to access the internet?  Government? Non-profit? or a For-Profit Corporation?  Why?

I have discussed benefits that Capitalism can provide, but that does not mean that unchecked Capitalism - which we have been moving closer and closer towards since deregulation of commerce and communication in the 1980s - is a healthy solution.  Corporate driven Capitalism has imposed itself on Democracy.  It has claimed to be the victim of unions, regulators/regulations, academia, and do-gooders, all the while gaining power, destroying the environment, demoralizing workers, stratifying citizens, misinforming, manipulating, creating consumer zombies, buying politicians, and blaming the individual.

Why do you believe that Capitalism is the best solution?  Is ubiquity really a strong argument for suitability?  Do you have any thoughts on the 4 recommendations posted above, or the other recommendations posed throughout this thread?
On your 4 recommendations, 1 and 2 have some merit, 3 and 4 are ridiculous.  Corporations not allowed to advertise in the public space and all corporate/public partnerships are bad?  Those are fairly sweeping changes not seen even in the socialist "utopias" of Europe.  Perhaps you can site some countries where these rules have been enacted resulting in great benefits.

Also, on the topic of the environment, the air and water in the US is cleaner now than in 1970 so not sure how your comment is true except that over regulation and lack of new infrastructure construction has caused us to outsource our pollution to other countries along with many of the jobs. 

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #154 on: December 31, 2014, 09:53:19 AM »
Davisgang90:  thank you for engaging in this discussion even though you obviously disagree with my arguments!

Can you provide defense for any elements of #1/#2 that you find offensive?  It would be easy to say "imposing on the free market" but taking the free market to it's logical conclusion is very rarely agreeable even to a staunch capitalist.

In defense of my opinion on corporate/public partnerships, consider CHANNEL ONE NEWS.  This is 1) how we teach kids to respect the media, 2) how we inform kids about the world, 3) mandatory.
- http://www.commercialalert.org/issues/education/channel-one
- http://www.obligation.org/2014-03-01-channel-one-news-the-company-that-brought-junk-food-advertising-into-american-classrooms

In defense of my opinion on corporate/public ad space:
Perhaps you can site some countries where these rules have been enacted resulting in great benefits.

A work in progress and "results" won't be known for some time, but I think 70% satisfaction with anything is pretty remarkable...
https://www.adbusters.org/magazine/73/Sao_Paulo_A_City_Without_Ads.html

I especially like the comment by Zadie Smith at the end of this article!
http://qz.com/303234/hate-billboards-move-to-frances-advertising-free-town/

davisgang90

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #155 on: December 31, 2014, 10:26:11 AM »
So ALL corporate/public partnerships should be outlawed because you don't like the impact of one? 

PBS has corporate sponsors so I guess it has to go too.  Ditto NPR.

Corporate partnerships with the NIH would be out too.  I guess improving public health through biomedical research isn't worth it.  http://ppp.od.nih.gov/

I'm no fan of billboards, but I'm not sure banning all outdoor advertisement makes a lot of sense.

As to #1 and #2 I said I saw some merit to those two, not sure what you are asking me to do.

MoneyCat

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #156 on: December 31, 2014, 10:42:19 AM »
So ALL corporate/public partnerships should be outlawed because you don't like the impact of one? 

PBS has corporate sponsors so I guess it has to go too.  Ditto NPR.

Corporate partnerships with the NIH would be out too.  I guess improving public health through biomedical research isn't worth it.  http://ppp.od.nih.gov/

I'm no fan of billboards, but I'm not sure banning all outdoor advertisement makes a lot of sense.

As to #1 and #2 I said I saw some merit to those two, not sure what you are asking me to do.

I actually cut way back on watching/supporting PBS and NPR once the corporate money came rolling in.  Now they are basically owned and operated by the Walton Foundation (Walmart), the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation (Microsoft), the George Lucas Foundation, and the Koch Brothers.  Officially, they fund programming through their non-profit foundations, but actually they are using their funding to alter the message of PBS and NPR to support their own ideologies, such as the push for public school privatization for profit.  Advertising really sucks.  I do everything in my power to avoid advertising -- such as by cancelling all magazine subscriptions, listening only to satellite radio, watching video online with ad-blocking plug-ins or time-shifting over-the-air broadcasts with my new DVR, etc.  Advertising brainwashes people and tricks them into spending money they shouldn't/needn't spend.

davisgang90

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #157 on: December 31, 2014, 10:48:44 AM »
You should quit patronizing MMM, he has ads on his site.  Filthy capitalist!

MoneyCat

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #158 on: December 31, 2014, 10:59:09 AM »
You should quit patronizing MMM, he has ads on his site.  Filthy capitalist!

What ads?  I've never seen any ads on this site (other than the blog posts suggesting services/products, some of which I have used by his recommendation.)

davisgang90

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #159 on: December 31, 2014, 11:11:42 AM »
I'm at work trying desperately not to run out and buy a Ford because I saw a Ford ad on MMM.  I think I will be victorious!

BBub

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #160 on: December 31, 2014, 11:24:54 AM »
Oh the horrors of living in a country so rich that an entire industry exists to try and capture a portion of the overflowing surplus of money sloshing around.

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #161 on: December 31, 2014, 12:37:42 PM »
I'm at work trying desperately not to run out and buy a Ford because I saw a Ford ad on MMM.  I think I will be victorious!

That's funny, but insanely ignorant.  I bet you know at least 3 Ford slogans.  I bet you know at least 5 Ford models.  I bet you know the price of at least 2 Fords.  I bet you can list features, awards, MPG, and dealerships in your local area.  Can you name one local organization aiming to conserve natural resources?

You need to learn about Partial Attention Realities.  Advertising is most effective when you DON'T pay attention.  This has been the aim of the most successful ad campaigns since the late 80's.  Things like interactive games filled with Hamburglers, Ronald McDonald's, and that fucking purple oaf, that are flanked by colorful, bright, blinking ads, invade the unconscious space in developing brains.  Have you heard of "stickiness?"  It is the idea that making something addictive is the best form of advertising.  That is why advertisers target base emotions that humans experience routinely, generate those emotions at a cyclical rate through "entertainment" and "news," and then tie consumer solutions to the experience.  Love: kay's jewelers.  Fear: glock.  Anxiety: McD's.

Just b/c you think you have figured out the code to staying conscious doesn't mean that your kids, neighbors, and coworkers are not being actively manipulated.

Oh the horrors of living in a country so rich that an entire industry exists to try and capture a portion of the overflowing surplus of money sloshing around.

Funny.  I like the image of sloshing money.  It reminds me of the Scrooge McDuck cartoons I used to watch on Disney between commercials.

You are missing the point, though.  Surplus money DOES exist - thank *dog* for capitalism - so why are we not providing opportunity for everyone?  Corporations were originally thought to be interested in social improvement (http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate-accountability-history-corporations-us/) and were actually "terminated if they exceeded their authority or caused public harm," but have since proven to be far more interested in generating/retaining profit for the wealthy than in the betterment of their own employees or society at large, and they're getting damn good at it.  Ad agencies are excited when they can deceive you into becoming unhealthy, b/c then they will have another contract to advertise health technology!  Dig a hole then fill it in.  Yay for synergy!!!

Our health/wellness is being sacrificed to our economic system instead of our economic system supporting our health/wellness.

Jack

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #162 on: December 31, 2014, 12:44:31 PM »
Oh the horrors of living in a country so rich that an entire industry exists to try and capture a portion of the overflowing surplus of money sloshing around brainwash and indoctrinate the public to serve corporate interests.

FTFY. And yes, it is horrific.

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #163 on: December 31, 2014, 01:14:07 PM »
That's funny, but insanely ignorant.  I bet you know at least 3 Ford slogans.  I bet you know at least 5 Ford models.  I bet you know the price of at least 2 Fords.  I bet you can list features, awards, MPG, and dealerships in your local area.

How much money would you put on that bet? $1,000? $10,000? $1,000,000? Because it sounds like a poor investment to me.

You might be right about davisgang90, but it's definitely not a sure thing. If you had posed the bet to me, you would have lost. I don't know a single Ford slogan. I can't name or identify any Ford. I do not know the price of a Ford. If I see a car on the street or in a parking lot, I have no idea how to tell whether it is made by Ford. I have never been to a dealership nor do I know where any are.

Despite your lofty statements, it really is easy to avoid learning about what products exist to buy. I have managed pretty well. I am blissfully ignorant about what I could even spend my money on if I wanted to. It's actually an excellent frugality technique as it will help you avoid spending money if you don't know what you could spend it on! MMM has even recommended the same thing on his blog.

Sure.

I was definitely swinging for the fence there, but if you broaden it beyond vehicles, do your answers still stand?  How bout this one: I bet you could sing some jingles for products that you hate... 

I agree that avoidance is the best strategy.  The point stands that corporations try to put us in corners and advertise to us.  Ask one of the 7 Million kids in the US that are forced to watch CHANNEL ONE NEWS.

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #164 on: December 31, 2014, 01:49:29 PM »
Who is forced to watch a news program? I have never watched TV news in my life.

7.7 million students in the US. -->http://www.commercialalert.org/issues/education/channel-one

Until around a year ago, I did used to read text news online, but I've stopped reading that now too.

Isn't that sad to you?  Wouldn't you like to know what is going on in the world without having to dodge corporate infiltration?

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #165 on: December 31, 2014, 02:04:58 PM »
Just grabbed the mail: Ads...
- Venus.com
- Mazda
- Consumer Reports
- xfinity
- bank of america
- ANOTHER visa card

Only two of these have I ever had any interaction with before and NONE of them did I request...

davisgang90

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #166 on: December 31, 2014, 03:49:42 PM »
Just grabbed the mail: Ads...
- Venus.com
- Mazda
- Consumer Reports
- xfinity
- bank of america
- ANOTHER visa card

Only two of these have I ever had any interaction with before and NONE of them did I request...
WHAT A NIGHTMARE!!!

BBub

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #167 on: December 31, 2014, 04:08:59 PM »
Ok, here's my problem w/ the poor people are victims camp.  You seem to completely ignore the personal responsibility side of the equation.  When presented with the idea, you refer back to the billions being spent on advertising & ask how the little man is supposed to stand a chance.  Other than acknowledging that "personal responsibility" is a counter argument to your own beliefs, you seem to give the concept no merit. 

I can tell you, having spent time in poor communities and mentoring poor children, that overwhelmingly the problem is all about personal choices.  The parents usually don't work, don't seek out paid employment because they fare better collecting government benefits and lounging around.  This is the norm.  Yes, this is just an anecdotal observation, and maybe all the other poor communities are different, but this has been my experience.  So they are victims of their own poor work ethic, their own weak will, lack of ability to think long term.  Go visit a third world country, watch a 2yr old drink from a mud puddle, see parents who can't feed or even clothe their dying children.  Then come back & tell me America's poor are victims of the ills of capitalism.

I've never net someone in America who, with true drive and determination, wasn't able to rise above poverty.  It's definitely not easy, but it's easier to do here than any place in the world - and any place throughout history.  Your biggest issue is that the poor get bombarded with ads while watching tv in a warm home with full bellies.  Any one of those people can decide at any time to cancel cable, get to work, educate themselves at the library, and generally improve their situation.  Sure, it'll take years of good decision making, self discipline and long term thinking.  But, guess what, that is the price one has to pay to achieve success.  And it's not for everyone.  We all have the choice.

fields

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #168 on: December 31, 2014, 04:52:15 PM »
Kind of disappointed that not many took on the challenge of how my client could improve her circumstances, but not surprised, because I've been working with her for years and haven't been able to help her improve her situation.  Here's what's happened recently:  She was evicted because she got far behind in paying her portion of the rent.  She wasn't able to find a less expensive apartment because she didn't have first, last, and security to put down on a new place.  She had to go into a shelter placement, which meant she couldn't continue school or her job, and she lost her Section 8 voucher.  She's now in a much worse position than she was.

Although people here are complaining about how much poor people like my client receive in benefits, I'd like to point out that even with all the assistance she was getting, she still could not get ahead.  She tried really hard, and it didn't work.  And no one here was able to offer a way forward for her, either (although there was a suggestion about reducing her insurance costs, and someone noted that she would get tax credits--but those only come once a year, not as needed.)

MDM

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #169 on: December 31, 2014, 05:04:54 PM »
Kind of disappointed that not many took on the challenge of how my client could improve her circumstances, but not surprised, because I've been working with her for years and haven't been able to help her improve her situation.  Here's what's happened recently:  She was evicted because she got far behind in paying her portion of the rent.  She wasn't able to find a less expensive apartment because she didn't have first, last, and security to put down on a new place.  She had to go into a shelter placement, which meant she couldn't continue school or her job, and she lost her Section 8 voucher.  She's now in a much worse position than she was.

Although people here are complaining about how much poor people like my client receive in benefits, I'd like to point out that even with all the assistance she was getting, she still could not get ahead.  She tried really hard, and it didn't work.  And no one here was able to offer a way forward for her, either (although there was a suggestion about reducing her insurance costs, and someone noted that she would get tax credits--but those only come once a year, not as needed.)
Sorry to hear things are worse.

Was she having taxes withheld from her pay?  If so that's unfortunate because, knowing her tax situation, she could have submitted a W-4 to stop withholding and keep all her earnings.

As someone noted she likely had expenses beyond what you listed.  It seemed, however, that she had enough buffer not to fall behind in rent...?

BBub

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #170 on: December 31, 2014, 05:29:51 PM »
I'm not trying to be callous or unsympathetic to your client.  Nor did I ever complain about the benefits being offered.  Quite the contrary, I am thankful that our capitalistic democracy produces such abundance as to be able to accommodate the poorest members of society with basic needs and comforts.

Let's take for example a client I've worked with.  She's a 25 y/o mother of four, ages two to seven.  She grew up in foster care, so is without the support of family.  She is not currently in a relationship with any of the fathers of her children, and receives no financial or practical support from any of them.  She has a Section 8 voucher, however she must pay the part of her rent that the voucher doesn't cover, approximately $500/month.  She needs to pay for heat and electricity, about $100/month.  She receives about $600/month in food stamps, which covers the majority of her food costs.  She has state-funded day care.  In an effort to improve her situation, she has been attending a secondary education program and was able to get a job as a home health aide.  To do this job, she must have a car so that she can travel from client to client.  She pays $200/month for her car, $200/month for insurance, $200/month for gas.  She earns $12/hr and works 30 hours a week while continuing to attend school.  Her net pay is about $300/week, not enough to cover her monthly expenses.  What should she do?

30 hrs per week at $12 is clearly not cutting it.  Not a single self-made "rich" person I've ever heard of got there by working 30 hrs per week.  In fact, most of them had weeks when they only slept 30 & spent the rest of the time trying to get ahead.

Priority #1: find more work.  Preferably higher paid.  Spend every possible waking hour applying for more work, networking, trying to build relationships with people who can help.  Go door to door offering to perform household chores, offer to clean peoples houses, wash cars, rake leaves.  Find something that works then keep doubling down.  Let's say she becomes an excellent house cleaner.  She can network and gain more referrals, expanding her business.  Ultimately she could hire employees under her.  But none of that can ever happen if she keeps working 30 hrs per week at $12 / hr with $200 in fuel expenses.  Will she face rejection, difficulties, obstacles?  Hell yes.  If her will is strong enough she'll overcome and succeed.  If not, she won't.  If she needs help caring for the kids, ask a neighbor, try to work something out with the daycare, maybe the 7 yr old has to grow up a little early and help carry some of the load around the house.  Not ideal, but neither is her situation.

Ultimately, she has to have a desire to pull herself up and take action, work smart & make sacrifices.  And not just for a month or two.. Year in, year out for a very long time.

BBub

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #171 on: December 31, 2014, 05:54:43 PM »
Thanks Cathy - perfect link.

Really though, how can this case even be taken seriously.  "Able bodied 25yo works 30 hrs per week and can't afford to pay the bills.  What ever should she do???"

fields

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #172 on: December 31, 2014, 06:05:29 PM »
Cathy, the time I spend working with this client directly is limited, however she and her children have had numerous in-home services and so I think your point holds--however, I have another client who received over $15000 in a retro disability check and now, less than four months later, it's all gone and she has nothing to show for it.

Bbub, she was working 30 hours a week and going to school.  She was out of the house for more than twelve hours a day, and was having friends and neighbors watch her kids for those hours not covered by her subsidized day care.  I do agree that she chose the wrong type of employment, but it's very hard to dissuade people from getting trained in these types of jobs when local for-profit schools market them as avenues to success, and $12/hour seems like a lot to them. 

MDM, she was having taxes withheld (either because she didn't know how not to, or because she wanted the refund) and did not have enough of a buffer (she was bringing home $1200/month and basic expenses were $1200.) 

Really, I'm not as interested in how to help adults out of poverty as I am how to help children.  But how???

MDM

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #173 on: December 31, 2014, 06:12:32 PM »
Really though, how can this case even be taken seriously.  "Able bodied 25yo works 30 hrs per week and can't afford to pay the bills.  What ever should she do???"
There is the not so minor point that she is a single parent with four kids.  Pretty poor planning on that count for sure, but one has to consider the situation as it exists today.

Still don't understand why she fell behind on rent but "time with her kids" should be considered as a mitigating factor before one assumes she just didn't try hard enough.  Having four kids under 10 years took time and that was with two parents, one staying at home.  Ultimately well worth it but that's another story....

MDM

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #174 on: December 31, 2014, 06:33:41 PM »
Really, I'm not as interested in how to help adults out of poverty as I am how to help children.  But how???

Book could be (and have been) written trying to answer that.  Best I can do in a few words is "help the parent(s) get their own act together so they can (and do) spend more time with the children."  Yes, much easier said than done....

totoro

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #175 on: December 31, 2014, 08:07:20 PM »
I disagree with most of what has been said so far.

I grew up poor.  Really poor.  We never went to McDonalds - it wasn't in the budget.  I can't see how people on welfare can afford this today either.  Maybe it is different in the US - but in Canada we don't have food stamps.  People get a monthly amount and the have to buy lentils or cheap grocery food like ground burger, cheap bread, rice, lentils, KD, carrots and bananas.  Convenience foods are expensive.

I don't recall one occasion growing up where we ate in a restaurant or had take-out.  Not one. 

My take on welfare-poor living is that the people are often there because of addictions, single parent status, lack of education/ability or mental health issues.

In order to get people out of poverty you need to address these issues.  All of these situations need more social supports to create a better society without creating a situation of dependence.  I'm sad when I look at the US system, happier to be Canadian and look wistfully to Scandinavia.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #176 on: December 31, 2014, 08:20:07 PM »
She's a 25 y/o mother of four, ages two to seven.  [...]
She earns $12/hr and works 30 hours a week while continuing to attend school.
Good questions and good to have a real example.  Some thoughts:
And once again in this discussion, nobody asks, "Where is the father of these four children?" Or fathers.

To improve your finances, increase your income and/or decrease spending. Her household income should be able to increase from the father or fathers doing their part. In her case, she is a victim - of irresponsible men, and of a society that does not force men to be responsible.

It's easy to say, "be tough with your kids, say no." Looking after FOUR children on your own on a low income after your children were ABANDONED by their father or fathers... I'm a happily-married father of ONE kid, and I want to spoil him. In her position it'd be hard to turn the kids down. She might need to for everyone's long-term good, but it'd be hard to.

totoro

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #177 on: December 31, 2014, 08:59:56 PM »
In Canada a single parent of two on welfare gets net $1035.58 per month in my province plus a child tax credit of net $592.91 a month for a total of approx. $1625/month net plus any child support payments which are not treated as income.  Shelter costs in subsidized housing are no more than 30% of income - or $500.  This leaves $1125 plus child support payments for everything else.  I'm not sure what the US scenario is like. I imagine it varies from state to state and appears to be less than this amount based on a google search.

McDonalds is not "around half the price" in the US.  McDonalds is 5.82% cheaper in the US than Canada.  Cheap restaurants are about 10% less.  However, groceries at the grocery store are often a lot less (see milk and produce which are 30%-50% cheaper in the US) which would, in my opinion, make it much less expensive to buy from the store rather than eat at McDonalds in the US than in Canada. http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States

Please do some research before you set out "facts" which are really your beliefs.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds this annoying.

totoro

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #178 on: December 31, 2014, 09:21:38 PM »
I see.   So the fact that grocery store produce is 30%-50% cheaper and McDonalds is, on average 5.8% cheaper but up to 50% cheaper depending on product/state makes it affordable for those on social assistance in the US to eat at McDonalds rather than grocery stores vs. Canada?

How exactly does that add up?  If Canadian grocery prices are 30-50% higher on average and McDonalds averages 5.8% but up to 50% higher it seems like the grocery would win when you calculate calories for dollar value in either country and it would work out the same. 

The only differential is the SA payment.  It appears that the poor in the US receive less than the poor in Canada unless I am missing something. You may wish to canvass the payments to a single parent with two children in your state plus the cost of subsidized housing  vs. the cost of McDonalds vs. the cost of groceries in your state so we can accurately compare. 

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #179 on: December 31, 2014, 09:59:14 PM »
Sorry to backtrack, but...

Furthermore, I fail to see how your prejudice views and overt generalizations toward the "lucky, wealthy, McMansion dwelling" class are helping anyone's case.

Edsmeds:
Am I not allowed to poke fun at a highly-advantaged group?  Especially one of which I consider myself to be a member (except for the McMansion part)?  If it hurts their (our) feelings, they (we) can just support a PAC that will pay a politician to change the laws and prevent me from being too mean.

You are certainly allowed but do so at the risk of compromising your credibility.  I get the humor, but undermining the very group you are trying to convince doesn't seem like the best way forward for your case.

In the context of this debate, calling the wealthy "lucky McMansion dwellers" is no less ignorant or divisive than calling the poor "lazy bigscreen watching, air Jordan wearers".

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #180 on: December 31, 2014, 10:17:03 PM »
I don't think that seriously poor families eat at McDonalds, that's crazy. McDonald's is ridiculously expensive for what you get.

Now, "working poor" families--maybe sometimes, too often eat at McDonald's. I don't know the statistics.

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #181 on: January 01, 2015, 04:16:02 AM »
If you are serious, it's because you use AdBlock Plus or a similar program... which is fine. As I said above, I avoid advertising as well (and I consider it rather easy to avoid). The great thing about a free society is that although somebody can put ads on their website, you're free to choose what you want your computer to display, including blocking ads.
You know that companies have urged to outlaw adblockers?
That technical implementations make it impossible to forward advertisements if you recorded a TV program?

Also you do not seem to know what corporate/public partnerships means - or it means something different in your country then mine und the poster you were answering.

Quote
WHAT A NIGHTMARE!!!
Yes! For me, having a to have more space for post just to contain the crap, having to use more space just for throwing it away (and such costing me more), and oh, then there is this nature thing.

Quote
own poor work ethic, their own weak will, lack of ability to think long term.
Yes. Now please read what was written on this before.

Quote
Instead of spending $33,280 on you, the state could have directly given that to the client, and -- if managed responsibly -- it would have been way more than enough to escape poverty. In fact, it would have been enough to fully support her for years
It was surely not one client.
But what you suggest is ot possible, because for people saying that the poor choose to stay poor this would be a first class waste of money. The poor should just try hard!

Quote
She can network
That is one thing the "poor should just try" cant understand: For some people it is impossible to "network". You could say "she just have to sing a lot and then she would be a millionaire singer" - it is the same.

regarding McDonalds: The statistics I know say that poor people eat more of the "expensive unhealthy" food then "rich". Thats part of the spiral they are in.
Mother feed their children McDonald, so the Children are used to and only want McDonald later in lafe. They possibly never have eat something healthy! And it takes 8 meals of something to get used to it and be able to eat it without having to force yourself to do it. (part of natures way to prevent we eat somehting thats bad for us)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 04:32:10 AM by LennStar »

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #182 on: January 01, 2015, 07:07:38 AM »

Quote
own poor work ethic, their own weak will, lack of ability to think long term.
Yes. Now please read what was written on this before. 

I did.  You cherry picked that half sentence out of an entire post. Please read the rest of the post and provide meaningful feedback.


Quote
She can network
That is one thing the "poor should just try" cant understand: For some people it is impossible to "network". You could say "she just have to sing a lot and then she would be a millionaire singer" - it is the same.
[quote/]

I'm glad you are not my advocate.  With that mindset I'd be poor too.

totoro

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #183 on: January 01, 2015, 10:21:55 AM »
I never claimed that the poor are prone to eating at McDonald's or anything like that. In fact, I explicitly said I did not believe that (see http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/poor-folks-are-victims/msg498588/#msg498588).

My post above that you criticised was just a generic "gosh, the USA is cheap" post with a tongue-in-cheek comment about McDonald's.

Sorry Cathy - did not realize that :)

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #184 on: January 01, 2015, 03:59:21 PM »
I'm glad you are not my advocate.  With that mindset I'd be poor too.
As I said "you people" just cannot understand it. Like "you people" with "normal" sight cant understand what a colorblind sees or not sees and the other way.

Please explain to me, what "networking" for you is - then I will write down what networking for e.g. me is (because I am one of the people who is not able to).

Of course it is always possible - its just incomprehensible hard to do it for some people.
That reminds me of Temple Grandin. Perhaps you have heard of her. There is even a film about her.
Thats a perfect example for one who did it dispite the problems she had - but you cant expect everyone to be so strong, especially when the parents are not helpful.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 04:02:02 PM by LennStar »

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #185 on: January 01, 2015, 07:31:07 PM »

Quote
She can network
That is one thing the "poor should just try" cant understand: For some people it is impossible to "network". You could say "she just have to sing a lot and then she would be a millionaire singer" - it is the same.
[quote/]

I'm glad you are not my advocate.  With that mindset I'd be poor too.

Bravo!   

I'll grant that people with Autism will have a really hard time networking.  Ditto with Asberger's, though I know some who get by well enough.

But those are mental issues, not simple poverty.

The fact of it is that damn near everyone who is not mentally ill or mentally retarded or severely ill/injured can learn to do most any skill at a passable level -- if they put in the work and time to do so and if their teachers expect it of them.

Sounds like this "helper" doesn't expect much of them and they therefore live down to those expectations.

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #186 on: January 01, 2015, 07:42:23 PM »
A lot of you appear to believe that poor people are just too stupid, retarded, or otherwise socially impaired to be taught the basic, simple steps that Dave Ramsey or MMM teach for financial well-being.

If you fall into that bunch of hooey, I would like to tell you about the Pygmalion Effect.  Here's a link to a synopsis:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect.

In short, when teachers expect great results from their students they generally get them and when they expect the opposite, that's what they get, too.

So, please, if you deal with the poor, for their sake and ours, learn about this and fully communicate that you expect them to do what needs doing.

BBub

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #187 on: January 01, 2015, 09:10:17 PM »
Networking - interact with other people to exchange information and develop contacts, especially to further one's career.

I'm not positive & you may want to fact check it, but I'm pretty sure our Homo Sapien ancestors figured this out.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 09:48:13 PM by BBub »

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #188 on: January 02, 2015, 06:48:39 AM »
Networking - interact with other people to exchange information and develop contacts, especially to further one's career.

I'm not positive & you may want to fact check it, but I'm pretty sure our Homo Sapien ancestors figured this out.
Well, for some Homo Sapiens this is:
Doing things you dont know about, with people you see no reason to meet, and talk with them about topics you are not interested in, using a social code that is a total mystery to you in situations you tremble from fear.

Even if you find a teacher who will hold your hand for the 2-3 years it would take you minimum to learn that and even if you would found the time and money to do it and even if you found the strength somewhere to bear it - there is no guaratee that is works.

It's no wonder that only a very few people manage that.

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #189 on: January 02, 2015, 08:17:49 AM »
Bootstrappers: what is the role of society?

Arguments for individualism often ignore humans' deeply ingrained reliance on society.  Isn't the whole point of Capitalism to specialize for the purpose of efficiency and productivity?  Don't all of you bootstrappers live in homes made by someone else, drink "clean" water pumped by someone else, eat food created by someone else?  Weren't you given education, security, guidance, and opportunity?  And if not, doesn't that piss you off?!  Why, then, should we require everyone in poverty to be expert at diet, fitness, personal finance, family planning, psychology (to combat the BILLIONS spent to deceive them), and raising kids in order to maintain a reasonably comfortable life?  Isn't that what society is for?  Rich folks can and do PAY for dietitians, fitness trainers, birth control or abortions, CFPs, and harvard-prep daycare.

A lot of you appear to believe that poor people are just too stupid, retarded, or otherwise socially impaired to be taught the basic, simple steps that Dave Ramsey or MMM teach for financial well-being.

If you fall into that bunch of hooey, I would like to tell you about the Pygmalion Effect.  Here's a link to a synopsis:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect.

In short, when teachers expect great results from their students they generally get them and when they expect the opposite, that's what they get, too.

So, please, if you deal with the poor, for their sake and ours, learn about this and fully communicate that you expect them to do what needs doing.

Interesting but dangerous, and certainly misapplied to this discussion.  Negative expectations are much more deterministic than positive expectations, b/c positive expectations still require structure, effort, talent/luck, and assistance.  Assisting someone is not the same as establishing negative expectations or calling them incapable: schools are structured social solutions and teachers still provide assistance to those that need it.  Setting up social structure to support basic predictable requirements, or identifying and eliminating impediments to managing requirements, is not the same as establishing negative expectations or calling individuals worthless. 

Granted, expectations are important and negative expectations will often come true; throwing someone in the deep end and yelling "I know you can learn to swim" while they drown, however, is irresponsible.  We fail to provide structured education about the most important elements of life - making food, handling waste, managing personal finances, communicating, relationships, dealing with emotions - and we leave this task to the economy!  Are blogs, hucksters, corporate "education" affiliates, and tv personalities really our best swim coaches?

BBub

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #190 on: January 02, 2015, 08:42:37 AM »
Networking - interact with other people to exchange information and develop contacts, especially to further one's career.

I'm not positive & you may want to fact check it, but I'm pretty sure our Homo Sapien ancestors figured this out.
Well, for some Homo Sapiens this is:
Doing things you dont know about, with people you see no reason to meet, and talk with them about topics you are not interested in, using a social code that is a total mystery to you in situations you tremble from fear.

Even if you find a teacher who will hold your hand for the 2-3 years it would take you minimum to learn that and even if you would found the time and money to do it and even if you found the strength somewhere to bear it - there is no guaratee that is works.

It's no wonder that only a very few people manage that.

And what's the alternative?  Take no action, do not seek to improve ones situation, accept failure? Honestly I'm having a hard time even responding to you because your outlook saddens me.

It's all about attitude & desire.  These deeply personal attributes can be developed if one is willing to put in the effort and seek out help.  That's what I choose to believe anyway.  You can choose to believe that too, and for your own sake, I hope you do.  Good luck.

BBub

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #191 on: January 02, 2015, 08:49:46 AM »
Bootstrappers: what is the role of society?

Arguments for individualism often ignore humans' deeply ingrained reliance on society.  Isn't the whole point of Capitalism to specialize for the purpose of efficiency and productivity?  Don't all of you bootstrappers live in homes made by someone else, drink "clean" water pumped by someone else, eat food created by someone else?  Weren't you given education, security, guidance, and opportunity?  And if not, doesn't that piss you off?!  Why, then, should we require everyone in poverty to be expert at diet, fitness, personal finance, family planning, psychology (to combat the BILLIONS spent to deceive them), and raising kids in order to maintain a reasonably comfortable life?  Isn't that what society is for?  Rich folks can and do PAY for dietitians, fitness trainers, birth control or abortions, CFPs, and harvard-prep daycare.

A lot of you appear to believe that poor people are just too stupid, retarded, or otherwise socially impaired to be taught the basic, simple steps that Dave Ramsey or MMM teach for financial well-being.

If you fall into that bunch of hooey, I would like to tell you about the Pygmalion Effect.  Here's a link to a synopsis:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect.

In short, when teachers expect great results from their students they generally get them and when they expect the opposite, that's what they get, too.

So, please, if you deal with the poor, for their sake and ours, learn about this and fully communicate that you expect them to do what needs doing.

Interesting but dangerous, and certainly misapplied to this discussion.  Negative expectations are much more deterministic than positive expectations, b/c positive expectations still require structure, effort, talent/luck, and assistance.  Assisting someone is not the same as establishing negative expectations or calling them incapable: schools are structured social solutions and teachers still provide assistance to those that need it.  Setting up social structure to support basic predictable requirements, or identifying and eliminating impediments to managing requirements, is not the same as establishing negative expectations or calling individuals worthless. 

Granted, expectations are important and negative expectations will often come true; throwing someone in the deep end and yelling "I know you can learn to swim" while they drown, however, is irresponsible.  We fail to provide structured education about the most important elements of life - making food, handling waste, managing personal finances, communicating, relationships, dealing with emotions - and we leave this task to the economy!  Are blogs, hucksters, corporate "education" affiliates, and tv personalities really our best swim coaches?

In this country we have legions of social workers, community organizers, nonprofits, outreach organizations, churches, charities and advocates like you.  Is there ever a point where you would concede that enough is enough and accept that certain percentage of the population will be poor regardless?  Or would you continue to expend resources indefinitely to ensure that every person lives a structured, comfortable life regardless of their personal choices along the way?

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #192 on: January 02, 2015, 09:10:20 AM »
Bootstrappers: what is the role of society?

Arguments for individualism often ignore humans' deeply ingrained reliance on society.  Isn't the whole point of Capitalism to specialize for the purpose of efficiency and productivity?  Don't all of you bootstrappers live in homes made by someone else, drink "clean" water pumped by someone else, eat food created by someone else?  Weren't you given education, security, guidance, and opportunity?  And if not, doesn't that piss you off?!  Why, then, should we require everyone in poverty to be expert at diet, fitness, personal finance, family planning, psychology (to combat the BILLIONS spent to deceive them), and raising kids in order to maintain a reasonably comfortable life?  Isn't that what society is for?  Rich folks can and do PAY for dietitians, fitness trainers, birth control or abortions, CFPs, and harvard-prep daycare.

A lot of you appear to believe that poor people are just too stupid, retarded, or otherwise socially impaired to be taught the basic, simple steps that Dave Ramsey or MMM teach for financial well-being.

If you fall into that bunch of hooey, I would like to tell you about the Pygmalion Effect.  Here's a link to a synopsis:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect.

In short, when teachers expect great results from their students they generally get them and when they expect the opposite, that's what they get, too.

So, please, if you deal with the poor, for their sake and ours, learn about this and fully communicate that you expect them to do what needs doing.

Interesting but dangerous, and certainly misapplied to this discussion.  Negative expectations are much more deterministic than positive expectations, b/c positive expectations still require structure, effort, talent/luck, and assistance.  Assisting someone is not the same as establishing negative expectations or calling them incapable: schools are structured social solutions and teachers still provide assistance to those that need it.  Setting up social structure to support basic predictable requirements, or identifying and eliminating impediments to managing requirements, is not the same as establishing negative expectations or calling individuals worthless. 

Granted, expectations are important and negative expectations will often come true; throwing someone in the deep end and yelling "I know you can learn to swim" while they drown, however, is irresponsible.  We fail to provide structured education about the most important elements of life - making food, handling waste, managing personal finances, communicating, relationships, dealing with emotions - and we leave this task to the economy!  Are blogs, hucksters, corporate "education" affiliates, and tv personalities really our best swim coaches?

In this country we have legions of social workers, community organizers, nonprofits, outreach organizations, churches, charities and advocates like you.  Is there ever a point where you would concede that enough is enough and accept that certain percentage of the population will be poor regardless?  Or would you continue to expend resources indefinitely to ensure that every person lives a structured, comfortable life regardless of their personal choices along the way?

You can blow away the smoke but the fire will burn on.  Social workers, community organizers, nonprofits, outreach organizations, churches, charities, and advocates are burning in the fire of corporate consumption and greed.  Corporations are externalization machines, fanning the flames and wreaking havoc on everything but their bottom line: the environment, the society, the individual.

I understand that individualism can seem appealing b/c it provides some sense of agency in a complex world driven by obfuscation and profit.  But individual solutions will never allow us to address the flames, we will continue to blow smoke and burn.

Extinguishing the ember - corporate overreach - is the only solution to poverty.

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #193 on: January 02, 2015, 09:35:13 AM »
So before the firestorm of Corporate Advertising caused poverty, we still had poverty.

You've picked an interesting windmill to tilt at there Don.

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #194 on: January 02, 2015, 09:43:44 AM »
Networking - interact with other people to exchange information and develop contacts, especially to further one's career.

I'm not positive & you may want to fact check it, but I'm pretty sure our Homo Sapien ancestors figured this out.
Well, for some Homo Sapiens this is:
Doing things you dont know about, with people you see no reason to meet, and talk with them about topics you are not interested in, using a social code that is a total mystery to you in situations you tremble from fear.

Even if you find a teacher who will hold your hand for the 2-3 years it would take you minimum to learn that and even if you would found the time and money to do it and even if you found the strength somewhere to bear it - there is no guaratee that is works.

It's no wonder that only a very few people manage that.

And what's the alternative?  Take no action, do not seek to improve ones situation, accept failure? Honestly I'm having a hard time even responding to you because your outlook saddens me.

It's all about attitude & desire.  These deeply personal attributes can be developed if one is willing to put in the effort and seek out help.  That's what I choose to believe anyway.  You can choose to believe that too, and for your own sake, I hope you do.  Good luck.
Ah, okay, I thought the "why" intersted you. If that isn't the case, we could have saved the time.



Of course, if you are just willing to put the effort in and seek out help, you can do everything. End wars, stop the climate change, end hunger.

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #195 on: January 02, 2015, 09:47:33 AM »
So before the firestorm of Corporate Advertising caused poverty, we still had poverty.

You've picked an interesting windmill to tilt at there Don.

Bro, you have provided very little to this conversation besides snipey, blithe, callous sarcasm.  Please depart with my best wishes.

There will always be someone that has less than someone else.  There was poverty before corporations.  Understood.
 If you can say that it is justice for one person to have $81,000,000,000 and for 47,000,000 people in the US to require government assistance for food, shelter, and clothing, then your opinion is noted and you will likely not provide much benefit to this discussion.

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #196 on: January 02, 2015, 09:56:59 AM »
So before the firestorm of Corporate Advertising caused poverty, we still had poverty.

You've picked an interesting windmill to tilt at there Don.
And less opportunity to get out of it with no social welfare programs to help. Anyone remember the Great Depression (OK so I'm not THAT old :-)!) and the bread lines and massive homelessness? Until things like welfare programs and SS were enacted you pretty much had no other options but to do something, anything, to survive or die. In comparison, today's poor, if they don't suffer from physical or mental illness or drug addiction, have more opportunity then ever to advance in life - maybe not become rich or even middle class, but to have a working class life. Even those people who make very bad choices in their lives, like the person above who had a friend who had 4 kids before 25 by for different men, has opportunity. She can be on welfare and go to school to learn a trade until the kids are old enough to be on their own and then she can find employment. That's not something people had the option for back in ye olde olden tymes before social welfare programs.

Sometimes I have to wonder about the complete lack of forgiveness the general public has for those who make mistakes in their lives.  Everyone thinks that if one is not 100% perfect in every way, then one is completely useless and should be left to the wolves.  I know that Christianity -- which promotes forgiveness as one of its central values -- isn't as popular as it used to be, but when did we all become so arrogant and callous?  Let him who is without sin cast the first stone (John 8:7).
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 10:57:21 AM by MoneyCat »

EDSMedS

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #197 on: January 02, 2015, 10:06:44 AM »
So before the firestorm of Corporate Advertising caused poverty, we still had poverty.

You've picked an interesting windmill to tilt at there Don.
And less opportunity to get out of it with no social welfare programs to help. Anyone remember the Great Depression (OK so I'm not THAT old :-)!) and the bread lines and massive homelessness? Until things like welfare programs and SS were enacted you pretty much had no other options but to do something, anything, to survive or die. In comparison, today's poor, if they don't suffer from physical or mental illness or drug addiction, have more opportunity then ever to advance in life - maybe not become rich or even middle class, but to have a working class life. Even those people who make very bad choices in their lives, like the person above who had a friend who had 4 kids before 25 by for different men, has opportunity. She can be on welfare and go to school to learn a trade until the kids are old enough to be on their own and then she can find employment. That's not something people had the option for back in ye olde olden tymes before social welfare programs.

TRUE!  There are better social services now to assist than in "ye olde olden tymes" (lol).  That change wasn't made available through individualism, though.

The reason I continue to argue is this: what is there to aspire to?  The middle class is unsatisfied, house poor, and fat.  Even the wealthy feel encroached on.  Corporate consumption, marketing, and the obfuscation of expense has driven us all batty!

MMM's message is powerful not b/c it makes us rich, but it demands that we step out of the normalized cycle of dissatisfaction, consumption, elation, and dissatisfaction that is supported by wage-slavery, billion dollar marketing campaigns created by psychologists, and horrible regulatory oversight.

Poor Folks are victims b/c we are all victims, but they experience the worst of it and are statistically less likely to escape it.

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #198 on: January 02, 2015, 10:33:31 AM »
So before the firestorm of Corporate Advertising caused poverty, we still had poverty.

You've picked an interesting windmill to tilt at there Don.
And less opportunity to get out of it with no social welfare programs to help. Anyone remember the Great Depression (OK so I'm not THAT old :-)!) and the bread lines and massive homelessness? Until things like welfare programs and SS were enacted you pretty much had no other options but to do something, anything, to survive or die. In comparison, today's poor, if they don't suffer from physical or mental illness or drug addiction, have more opportunity then ever to advance in life - maybe not become rich or even middle class, but to have a working class life. Even those people who make very bad choices in their lives, like the person above who had a friend who had 4 kids before 25 by for different men, has opportunity. She can be on welfare and go to school to learn a trade until the kids are old enough to be on their own and then she can find employment. That's not something people had the option for back in ye olde olden tymes before social welfare programs.

Sometimes I have to wonder about the complete lack of forgiveness the general public has for those who make mistakes in their lives.  Everything thinks that if one is not 100% perfect in every way, then one is completely useless and should be left to the wolves.  I know that Christianity -- which promotes forgiveness as one of its central values -- isn't as popular as it used to be, but when did we all become so arrogant and callous?  Let him who is without sin cast the first stone (John 8:7).
Except that isn't anywhere near true.  Folks are fatigued that despite the incredible number of safety nets available today there are always more excuses: "It's greedy corporations spending money advertising", "It's the Rich not paying their fair share" etc. 

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Re: Poor Folks are Victims
« Reply #199 on: January 02, 2015, 10:54:14 AM »
So before the firestorm of Corporate Advertising caused poverty, we still had poverty.

You've picked an interesting windmill to tilt at there Don.
And less opportunity to get out of it with no social welfare programs to help. Anyone remember the Great Depression (OK so I'm not THAT old :-)!) and the bread lines and massive homelessness? Until things like welfare programs and SS were enacted you pretty much had no other options but to do something, anything, to survive or die. In comparison, today's poor, if they don't suffer from physical or mental illness or drug addiction, have more opportunity then ever to advance in life - maybe not become rich or even middle class, but to have a working class life. Even those people who make very bad choices in their lives, like the person above who had a friend who had 4 kids before 25 by for different men, has opportunity. She can be on welfare and go to school to learn a trade until the kids are old enough to be on their own and then she can find employment. That's not something people had the option for back in ye olde olden tymes before social welfare programs.

Sometimes I have to wonder about the complete lack of forgiveness the general public has for those who make mistakes in their lives.  Everything thinks that if one is not 100% perfect in every way, then one is completely useless and should be left to the wolves.  I know that Christianity -- which promotes forgiveness as one of its central values -- isn't as popular as it used to be, but when did we all become so arrogant and callous?  Let him who is without sin cast the first stone (John 8:7).
Except that isn't anywhere near true.  Folks are fatigued that despite the incredible number of safety nets available today there are always more excuses: "It's greedy corporations spending money advertising", "It's the Rich not paying their fair share" etc.

Your argument, then, is that we need to reduce/eliminate safety nets?