Author Topic: Political Current Events  (Read 45920 times)

Davnasty

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2017, 02:42:03 PM »
I have zero problem with Obama making paid speeches for Wall Street firms (or anyone else) but one has to be pretty partisan or have head stuck in the sand to not see how it comes across as hypocritical to be critical of Wall Street and then "work" for them.  Frankly, I don't begrudge his right to make a buck, but on the heels of his (their) $65M book advance, not sure why he needs to go sell speeches for $400k/pop.
Agreed. I can't help but think a bit of generosity on his part would have done him more good in the long run than some extra cash.

I wonder this a lot with public figures. It seems like their image is worth more than the money once they have enough. Then again, my concept of 'enough' is probably skewed from the general population considering where I'm writing this. And it's always possible I just don't understand the relationships and symbolism of payments for these engagements.

RangerOne

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2017, 03:40:46 PM »
You have to keep in mind also a lot of these political juggernauts like being in the game even if they aren't in office.

They are life long activists promoting political change and charitable work. Part of the equation to succeed in those areas is money and influence. For a normal good politician that all comes about with some balance of personal greed and desire to use their money to influence the world around by leveraging their credentials. This is pretty standard stuff that I don't generally frown. Past presidents like Clinton and Obama are brilliant speakers and intellectuals who have interesting thoughts to share.

That being said this is not the kind of work that a warrior against the system, like Bernie, would probably go in for.

RangerOne

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2017, 04:05:13 PM »
That's not how the net flows of federal dollars between states work.  You have probably heard people present that argument as a reason for why state taxes should be deductible, but that's always been an argument that relies almost completely on the unstated premise that more state spending automatically results in a better state with residents who don't need federal aid.  Federal programs are not, to my knowledge, set up to penalize recipients for state spending.  For example, a state's medicaid match is determined basically by the average per capita income of a state compared to the national average.  For medicare, I don't think anything relative to the state is even considered.  Lots of federal tax dollars are transferred based on the existence of federal facilities in a state, such as military bases or federal agencies. 

Maybe the distribution of CDBG funds could be affected because states with lower spending might have more "urgent needs"?  But I'm guessing that's still largely driven by who has the political clout to claim CDBG funds outside of events like Sandy or Katrina etc.

Unless I'm just missing something really obvious (always a possibility), a state reducing it's spending is not generally going to meaningfully improve it's net position as to the flow of federal tax dollars.

I would guess that the only people claiming state income or sales tax as a deduction are those that are itemizing due to owning a home. I would not venture to say that states with high income tax for instance have fewer people in need of aid either. The best comparison for a high income state with a different model is Texas. As opposed to income tax the reap a lot of their state dollars from property tax. In any event every state with large populations gets there tax dollars from somewhere. I am curious of this exclusion would include disallowing the deduction of property tax. Because that I think does throw things off if they include one and not the other.

I have to imagine that part of the interest in doubling the standard deduction is to cut down on the number of people itemizing as this does lead to simplified taxes in a way.

One point of clarity I have seen nothing on, do they still plan to keep personal exemptions now? This was a huge issue I had with the Trumps platform tax proposal.

If they keep personal exemptions, I could really care less if my deductions from the standard or itemizing. But it will certainly destroy the argument that buying an average home is a tax benefit. I guess thats gonna piss off realtors.

Personally this doesn't strike me as tax reform. Nothing is really getting simpler or changing drastically. Removing tax brackets isn't making anything simpler. The vast majority of Americans are in the bottom 3 brackets. These are barely changing.

The only thing that may be considered a simplification is a possible disincentive to itemize. Basically everyone on the bottom that still pays income tax gets a nice little boost with the standard deduction. And people making way over half a million in standard income or ordinary dividends get a big fat fucking tax break.

This is not simplified taxes, this is a huge tax cut.

Malloy

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2017, 01:37:09 PM »
So, what's the over/under on House Republicans facing any electoral penalty on voting to a) bring back pre-existing condition denials b) de-fund Medicaid nursing home support c) eliminate the insurance EHBs so that pregnant women will have to buy maternity riders d) eliminate lifetime spending caps? 

I predict they will face no penalty, because Republican voters seem to be getting what they want out of their elected representatives.  Namely: "lulz-liberal tears."  And when a Trump voter has a premature baby who hits a lifetime spending cap in the first six months of life?  I'm sure they'll find a way to blame it on Obama or Hillary's emails.

dividendman

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2017, 02:07:01 PM »
So, what's the over/under on House Republicans facing any electoral penalty on voting to a) bring back pre-existing condition denials b) de-fund Medicaid nursing home support c) eliminate the insurance EHBs so that pregnant women will have to buy maternity riders d) eliminate lifetime spending caps? 

I predict they will face no penalty, because Republican voters seem to be getting what they want out of their elected representatives.  Namely: "lulz-liberal tears."  And when a Trump voter has a premature baby who hits a lifetime spending cap in the first six months of life?  I'm sure they'll find a way to blame it on Obama or Hillary's emails.

The ideal situation for Republicans is what has just occurred. i.e. the House passed a bill that will die in the Senate.

This means:
1) The GOP can say they did their part in the repeal of Obamacare
2) The GOP can say the dems filibustered the repeal of Obamacare in the Senate so elect more republican senators next time to break the filibuster (which they have a shot at doing given the electoral map)
3) Healthcare sucks still because it's still Obamacare thanks to the Democrats in the Senate, see 2)

A worse case for the Republicans is that this bill actually passes the Senate then they own the state of health care for the nation (they actually own it regardless since they control all government, but they can claim they don't) and then it turns out to suck and they get owned in the elections.

That's why they don't want it to pass the Senate so it won't. The Dems should let it pass IMO, with no amendments.

Gin1984

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2017, 02:44:43 PM »
Just because a group pays someone to give a speech doesn't mean the speaker is aligned with that group. Hillary was maligned for giving paid speeches to various special interest groups even though her viewpoints were often at odds with those special interests.

Does anyone see Obama's speeches as selling influence like Hillary was frequently said to be by her worst critics?

Obama is not currently in office and there isn't any indication that his wife wants to hold office.  If anything, paying Obama $400k for a speech is to buy influence with sitting presidents, sort of a "look how well ex-presidents get treated as long as they don't make us mad while they're in office."  But I think the public speaking circuit is just ridiculous.  People (organizations) want to signal that they're important, so they "overpay" to get to tell people that so and so is speaking at their event.  Hillary's was just so distasteful because she (or her husband) was doing it while she was secretary of state or running for office and also her pay seemed disproportionate to being a first lady/senator/secretary of state.  Hard to say since she did have a pretty unique combination there, but it certainly looked like her speaking fee was elevated because of the certainty/likelihood that she would run for/win the presidential election, which is unseemly if not definitely corrupt.   
Actually if you look at the amount paid to former secretaries of state, she was underpaid.

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hoping2retire35

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2017, 02:47:31 PM »
So, what's the over/under on House Republicans facing any electoral penalty on voting to a) bring back pre-existing condition denials b) de-fund Medicaid nursing home support c) eliminate the insurance EHBs so that pregnant women will have to buy maternity riders d) eliminate lifetime spending caps? 

I predict they will face no penalty, because Republican voters seem to be getting what they want out of their elected representatives.  Namely: "lulz-liberal tears."  And when a Trump voter has a premature baby who hits a lifetime spending cap in the first six months of life?  I'm sure they'll find a way to blame it on Obama or Hillary's emails.

The ideal situation for Republicans is what has just occurred. i.e. the House passed a bill that will die in the Senate.

This means:
1) The GOP can say they did their part in the repeal of Obamacare
2) The GOP can say the dems filibustered the repeal of Obamacare in the Senate so elect more republican senators next time to break the filibuster (which they have a shot at doing given the electoral map)
3) Healthcare sucks still because it's still Obamacare thanks to the Democrats in the Senate, see 2)

A worse case for the Republicans is that this bill actually passes the Senate then they own the state of health care for the nation (they actually own it regardless since they control all government, but they can claim they don't) and then it turns out to suck and they get owned in the elections.

That's why they don't want it to pass the Senate so it won't. The Dems should let it pass IMO, with no amendments.

UM. can't they just pass it through reconcilliation? like the first time.

RangerOne

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2017, 05:48:39 PM »
Healthcare is just one of those things that any change to the overall system at the Federal level is guaranteed to screw over a non-trivial portion of the electorate. The only thing the Repubs can hope to do in the short term to avoid losing too many voters is delay and look like they are trying to fix it.

Like so many other major policies issues every answer has downsides which is generally why the longer a party is in control the worse it fairs with voters. I was watching the NPR live count and there were already anecdotally at least a few people on their commenting they want to change their party registration.

In general I would say this is a rush job to look like they are trying repeal the ACA, when they haven't made any true effort to put forward something that could actually be better. Their only tactic and goal it seems has been to remove some of the mandates their ideologues found repugnant while trying not to lose too many voters while doing it.

But in general Trump is still popular with his voters it seems and thus the Republicans down ticket aren't at risk yet.

rosaz

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2017, 11:16:32 AM »
For those who favor getting rid of the deduction for state and local taxes, do you think we should get rid of it for charitable donations too?

If not, I could deduct money I give to support a (possibly quite exclusive) private school, but not money I give (through my taxes) to support a public school. Or to a church-run medical facility, but not a city-run clinic. That just feels wrong to me.

RangerOne

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2017, 11:37:19 AM »
Whatever the initial intent of state and local taxes were getting ride of them can mostly be seen as an attempt to discourage the majority from itemizing. Avoiding itemizing is also certainly a simplification though one that will work out good for some and meh for others.

I have to imagine for homeowners this option is advantageous almost everywhere. States that happen to have no income tax tend to make up for it in property and sales tax. Sales tax can be deducted currently though clearly that can be more complicated to calculate well.

But in general I think true simplification would involve doing away with all means tested tax breaks and consolidating any remaining means tested breaks into one tax break designed to help the impoverished.

As long as we are in the business of trying to artificially encourage home ownership through tax breaks, charity through tax breaks, or other medical spending then we will have a complicated tax system where a person must carefully try to maximize their tax breaks.

I will just repeat there is absolutely nothing complicated have 2, 3 or 12 tax brackets. Deductions, credits and AGI, MAGI and itimizing are all very complicated.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #60 on: May 08, 2017, 07:39:46 AM »
For those who favor getting rid of the deduction for state and local taxes, do you think we should get rid of it for charitable donations too?

If not, I could deduct money I give to support a (possibly quite exclusive) private school, but not money I give (through my taxes) to support a public school. Or to a church-run medical facility, but not a city-run clinic. That just feels wrong to me.
Set up a non profit to donate to those organizations. I am sure they will not refuse the money.

Kris

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2017, 08:38:57 PM »
The President of the United States just fired the FBI director who was investigating him for treason.

There's really no need to elaborate on that.

Gin1984

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2017, 06:19:27 AM »
For those who favor getting rid of the deduction for state and local taxes, do you think we should get rid of it for charitable donations too?

If not, I could deduct money I give to support a (possibly quite exclusive) private school, but not money I give (through my taxes) to support a public school. Or to a church-run medical facility, but not a city-run clinic. That just feels wrong to me.
Set up a non profit to donate to those organizations. I am sure they will not refuse the money.
You don't even need to set up a non-profit.  Additional charity to public schools or country/city run clinics are deductible.

sequoia

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2017, 06:24:18 AM »
The President of the United States just fired the FBI director who was investigating him for treason.

There's really no need to elaborate on that.

Am I the only one that are not surprised here? If you are not in agreement with the current president, you either fired, or if you can not be fired, you are part of fake news.

OurTown

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2017, 09:51:40 AM »
The President of the United States just fired the FBI director who was investigating him for treason.

There's really no need to elaborate on that.

Well, that's not suspicious at all!

Proud Foot

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2017, 10:50:31 AM »
The President of the United States just fired the FBI director who was investigating him for treason.

There's really no need to elaborate on that.

And I bet they will try to frame it as Comey "not doing enough about the Hillary Clinton emails".

Jrr85

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2017, 10:58:33 AM »
The President of the United States just fired the FBI director who was investigating him for treason.

There's really no need to elaborate on that.

Maybe elaborate to make it an accurate statement? 

Johnez

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2017, 11:27:38 AM »
Trump letter firing Comey:

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-read-president-trump-s-letter-to-fbi-1494367417-htmlstory.html

Quote
Dear Dear Director Comey:

I have received the attached letters from the Attorney General and Deputy Attorney General of the United States recommending your dismissal as the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I have accepted their recommendation and you are hereby terminated and removed from office, effective immediately.

While I greatly appreciate you informing me, on three separate occasions, that I am not under investigation, I nevertheless concur with the judgment of the Department of Justice that you are not able to effectively lead the Bureau.

It is essential that we find new leadership for the FBI that restores public trust and confidence in its vital law enforcement mission.

I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

Donald J. Trump

Clearly the Russia investigation had nothing at all to do with his sacking.

Lol.

Is there any worse of a blunder that Trump could have made at this time? "Um it was about his terrible investigation on Hilary guys..." I don't think even his red hat wearing supporters can keep a straight face at that...

« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 11:34:45 AM by Johnez »

bacchi

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2017, 12:37:34 PM »
Is there any worse of a blunder that Trump could have made at this time? "Um it was about his terrible investigation on Hilary guys..." I don't think even his red hat wearing supporters can keep a straight face at that...

Yeah, that's some weak sauce. It can only get worse for Trump from here.

sequoia

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2017, 12:53:24 PM »
Is there any worse of a blunder that Trump could have made at this time? "Um it was about his terrible investigation on Hilary guys..." I don't think even his red hat wearing supporters can keep a straight face at that...

Based on the past few months, he will make worse blunder in the future for sure. I will bet money on this. Still have ~4 years to go, so plenty of opportunity to screw up even more.

bacchi

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2017, 12:57:13 PM »
Based on the past few months, he will make worse blunder in the future for sure. I will bet money on this. Still have ~4 years to go, so plenty of opportunity to screw up even more.

This may be one of those key moments at wikipedia.org/Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2017, 08:28:48 AM »
So, Comey is fired and everyone believes it was because he was about to open an investigation against trump. However, if he was not fired it would, of course, been because he handed the election to trump...


Kris

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2017, 09:03:07 AM »
So, Comey is fired and everyone believes it was because he was about to open an investigation against trump. However, if he was not fired it would, of course, been because he handed the election to trump...

Trump's cronyism is well-known. As is his demand for complete and absolute loyalty. I'm sure that Trump himself probably saw Comey's "Hillary's email" statement right before the election as a sign of Trump loyalty. Looks like he has concluded that Comey investigating ties to Russia -- doing his job -- was a lack of loyalty.

Edit: Looks like Kellyanne Conway is confirming this.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/11/trump-loyalty-james-comey-firing-238262?cmpid=sf
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 09:06:06 AM by Kris »

Davnasty

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2017, 09:17:42 AM »
So, Comey is fired and everyone believes it was because he was about to open an investigation against trump. However, if he was not fired it would, of course, been because he handed the election to trump...

No. You don't need justification to not fire someone.

Even if there was good justification to fire him, doing so during this investigation is suspicious. Even if this had happened with a great president with high approval ratings, I would expect a special investigation. Why not? if he is innocent and he hires the person that comes to that conclusion, I still won't believe it and neither will many Americans. That's setting us up to further divide our country.

Also, his justification is laughably bad. Doubly so as he praised Comey for the same things he is now firing him over.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 09:19:23 AM by Dabnasty »

Jrr85

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2017, 09:36:31 AM »
So, Comey is fired and everyone believes it was because he was about to open an investigation against trump. However, if he was not fired it would, of course, been because he handed the election to trump...
^^^THIS^^^^

Out of the opinion writers who I respect and believe are relatively informed, the range of opinion seems to go from "yes, Comey deserved to be fired and Trump should have done it before rather than waiting on the recommendation from the deputy AG" to "yes, Comey needed to be fired and Trump selected the best option by waiting for the detailed recommendation from a well-respected deputy AG" to "yes, Comey deserved and needed to be fired but the optics are just too bad to be worth it and it was a mistake by Trump to do it" 

I have no clue if Trump's motivations were legitimate or not, but I don't have any more reason to suspect his motivations than if he had kept Comey on. 

Davnasty

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #75 on: May 11, 2017, 09:52:56 AM »

Out of the opinion writers who I respect and believe are relatively informed

Could you give us names/sources for this? I make it a point to read from both sides and I've found that even Fox News has taken a stance of Wellllll......

Kris

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #76 on: May 11, 2017, 10:11:44 AM »
Interesting interview about the firing of Comey and the Russia investigation from an ex-FBI agent.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/an-ex-fbi-agent-explains-whats-next-for-the-russia-investigation?utm_source=vicefbus


Jrr85

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #77 on: May 11, 2017, 10:20:03 AM »

Out of the opinion writers who I respect and believe are relatively informed

Could you give us names/sources for this? I make it a point to read from both sides and I've found that even Fox News has taken a stance of Wellllll......

David French, Andrew McCarthy, les familiar with his work, but it makes sense:
 Byron York http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/byron-york-to-fire-comey-trump-team-waited-for-rosenstein/article/2622655

Considering that people ont he left wanted Comey fired until he was actually fired, it seems pretty clear to me that there was going to be speculation either way, which is a good sign that the FBI wasn't going to regain credibility under his leadership.  Doesn't mean that this was the right decision or that this wasn't a decision based on improper motives, just that you can't really tell because there were going to be rumors taht his motives were improper whether he kept him (a thank you for the Clinton press conferences) or fired him (a warning against a Russia investigation). 

hoping2retire35

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crazyworld

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2017, 06:24:33 PM »
I am finding the whole "but democrats wanted him fired, so now why the hypocrisy" argument all over the place to be kind of naive - there is no hypocrisy: both things are true - the infamous letter right before the election was damaging (not to mention, he never breathed a word that Trump's associates were also being looked at).  And now, Trump keeps firing people who are asking questions (does not pass the sniff test).  I can hold both thoughts in my head, without it exploding.

TBH, Trump may have won regardless of the Comey helpline, and sure, there may be nothing to the Russia thing after all - I accept it if a good faith investigation is conducted. But the ongoing obfuscating about literally everything is just suspicious.

Lagom

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #80 on: May 11, 2017, 08:43:37 PM »
This isn't hard guys. It doesn't matter if the liberals are being hypocrites. Regardless of the truth (i.e. is the crime worse than the cover-up?), it is undeniable that the timing is incredibly suspicious. Jeff Session's actions (participating in a process he had promised to recuse himself from) should very arguably have him disbarred and impeached. The reasoning given about Comey re: his treatment of HRC is directly contradicted by Trump and his surrogate's previous statements during the campaign... And so forth. Also, Trump himself just made his whole staff look stupid by changing the story they were spinning in his subsequent interview.

But I know upsetting liberals is all that really matters to some people. Trump is certainly an A+ president from that perspective.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 11:58:57 PM by Lagom »

Davnasty

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2017, 08:09:21 AM »
TBH, Trump may have won regardless of the Comey helpline, and sure, there may be nothing to the Russia thing after all - I accept it if a good faith investigation is conducted. But the ongoing obfuscating about literally everything is just suspicious.

Sometimes this is what worries me the most. What if there is nothing linking Trump to Russia? What if his intention is to look as suspicious as possible to distract from other issues, like healthcare, all the while knowing that he actually has nothing to hide.

Not only would this serve as a great distraction, in the end he'll be able to say "look, I told you I was innocent but the fake news wouldn't let it go." He would be creating his own evidence to further his case against the 'lying media'.

Hopefully that's not the case, but something to consider before demanding his head on a platter without solid evidence.

Davnasty

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2017, 08:16:05 AM »
This is only loosely related to the current discussion, but I need to share it.

https://www.popsugar.com/news/Old-Clip-Paul-Manafort-Unable-Answer-Russia-Question-43340296

There's nothing truly incriminating here... But holy shit.

bacchi

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2017, 08:20:58 AM »
TBH, Trump may have won regardless of the Comey helpline, and sure, there may be nothing to the Russia thing after all - I accept it if a good faith investigation is conducted. But the ongoing obfuscating about literally everything is just suspicious.

Sometimes this is what worries me the most. What if there is nothing linking Trump to Russia? What if his intention is to look as suspicious as possible to distract from other issues, like healthcare, all the while knowing that he actually has nothing to hide.

Not only would this serve as a great distraction, in the end he'll be able to say "look, I told you I was innocent but the fake news wouldn't let it go." He would be creating his own evidence to further his case against the 'lying media'.

Hopefully that's not the case, but something to consider before demanding his head on a platter without solid evidence.

Unless Congress is in on it, that wouldn't work. Besides the usuals (McCain and Graham), his antics are swaying more Republicans against him. Burr, Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, stated that the firing "made no sense." Amash, in the Freedom Caucus, is grumbling too. Flake is another. If the Senate is distracted, bills will slow to a crawl.

Kris

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2017, 08:22:52 AM »
This is an actual screen shot of an actual tweet by our actual president.


bacchi

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #85 on: May 12, 2017, 08:31:42 AM »
This is an actual screen shot of an actual tweet by our actual president.

It doesn't make sense. If there are tapes, Trump will have Comey jailed? But if there are relevant tapes, Trump will look bad.

Trump is starting to panic.

OurTown

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2017, 09:11:40 AM »
TBH, Trump may have won regardless of the Comey helpline, and sure, there may be nothing to the Russia thing after all - I accept it if a good faith investigation is conducted. But the ongoing obfuscating about literally everything is just suspicious.

Sometimes this is what worries me the most. What if there is nothing linking Trump to Russia? What if his intention is to look as suspicious as possible to distract from other issues, like healthcare, all the while knowing that he actually has nothing to hide.

Not only would this serve as a great distraction, in the end he'll be able to say "look, I told you I was innocent but the fake news wouldn't let it go." He would be creating his own evidence to further his case against the 'lying media'.

Hopefully that's not the case, but something to consider before demanding his head on a platter without solid evidence.

Unless Congress is in on it, that wouldn't work. Besides the usuals (McCain and Graham), his antics are swaying more Republicans against him. Burr, Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, stated that the firing "made no sense." Amash, in the Freedom Caucus, is grumbling too. Flake is another. If the Senate is distracted, bills will slow to a crawl.

If I were advising them (which I am not), I would tell the Rs to appoint a special prosecutor.  It would go so much better for them that way.  Amash has the right idea. 

Lis

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2017, 09:40:58 AM »
Following along, because this has been very informative so far, and I really appreciate that lack of name calling. Every article I've seen posted on Facebook tends to swing from one extreme to the other, so it's refreshing to mostly read perspectives of "this is what's happening, this is how it will affect X, this is how I think it will affect Y."

Kris

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2017, 09:43:32 AM »
This is an actual screen shot of an actual tweet by our actual president.

It doesn't make sense. If there are tapes, Trump will have Comey jailed? But if there are relevant tapes, Trump will look bad.

Trump is starting to panic.

Yeah. Honestly, my mind is kind of boggled by how... insane-seeming this tweet was and is. I can't believe Trump didn't have the sense not to press the button on this one. Wow.

Glenstache

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2017, 09:57:05 AM »
He said, He said, but this is troubling if true.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/us/politics/trump-comey-firing.html?_r=0&mtrref=www.nytimes.com

It is highly inappropriate to ask someone who is in an agency that demands independence to be credible to effectively declare fealty. Trump is well known for demanding loyalty from his employees in business. That's fine, but does not translate to government, which has a fundamentally different intent, strucutre,

Kris

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2017, 09:59:42 AM »
He said, He said, but this is troubling if true.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/us/politics/trump-comey-firing.html?_r=0&mtrref=www.nytimes.com

It is highly inappropriate to ask someone who is in an agency that demands independence to be credible to effectively declare fealty. Trump is well known for demanding loyalty from his employees in business. That's fine, but does not translate to government, which has a fundamentally different intent, strucutre,

Yup. And the thing with this is, it's so completely in line with something Trump would do. When I read this story, I actually sat back and tried to make myself believe it wasn't true. I couldn't.

dividendman

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2017, 10:12:05 AM »
What I don't understand is why the republicans aren't using this (or any) information to impeach Trump.

Pence would be much easier for them to work with and they would probably get a lot more of their agenda passed.

I think the democrats/liberals are lucky Trump is in office because he and his staff are so incompetent that they won't be able to do as much as they could.

Kris

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2017, 10:28:24 AM »
What I don't understand is why the republicans aren't using this (or any) information to impeach Trump.

Pence would be much easier for them to work with and they would probably get a lot more of their agenda passed.

I think the democrats/liberals are lucky Trump is in office because he and his staff are so incompetent that they won't be able to do as much as they could.

In some ways, I agree with you.

Maybe the Republicans are just hoping to do as much as they can under the table while the press focuses on how absolutely, catastrophically incompetent and pathological Trump is.



In terms of whether liberals should consider themselves lucky with Trump?

Well, I think many or most on the left recognize Pence doesn't present a great alternative. Many Democrats i know think he would be worse than Trump.


So, which is worse?

Trump is kind of destroying the integrity -- what little there is left -- in our political institutions.

Trump is an absolute disaster in terms of corruption, graft, nepotism, free press, and potentially treason.

Trump is also a disaster in terms of the rise of racist, antisemitic, and anti-Muslim violence that can be connected to his rhetoric and the people he pandered to during his campaign.

Trump is also a potential disaster in terms of international diplomacy and foreign policy.

With enough time in office, Trump could be a potential disaster in terms of starting or escalating armed conflicts around the world.

Trump could also be a disaster in terms of terrorism because he's so incompetent and so many offices are short-staffed.


Pence, or Ryan, with both houses of Congress under Republican control, would likely be worse in terms of voter suppression; repression of the rights of the poor, women, and minorities, and the LGBTQ community; erosion of the separation of church and state; and policies that deny the effects of climate change. To name a few things.

Pick your poison, I guess.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 10:32:43 AM by Kris »

hoping2retire35

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2017, 10:36:20 AM »
At first I didn't get it. Like "If you have dirt on me I will throw in jail for...something"-just seems dumb. Then I reread it.

But, honestly, if information is being leaked, about someone(the president) and that person has damaging information(on the leaker) why wouldn't they release it(the "tapes")? Sure if comey said something illegal, in a just and honorable society, that information should be made immediatly public and said person indicted. But if he just said something like "I cheated on my wife". There is no real reason to release that; until one needs too.

Seems shady and backhanded, but in grand scheme of presidential politics/diplomacy not surprising or even a big deal. Perhaps something like that was the reason he was fired.(better before someone else finds out and blackmails head of the FBI).

Mind not made up; but this could go either way.

crazyworld

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2017, 10:38:24 AM »
What I don't understand is why the republicans aren't using this (or any) information to impeach Trump.

Pence would be much easier for them to work with and they would probably get a lot more of their agenda passed.

I think the democrats/liberals are lucky Trump is in office because he and his staff are so incompetent that they won't be able to do as much as they could.

I think because, unbelievably, his supporters are completely hypnotized by their pied piper and defend him bigly.  GOP politicians would like to keep their jobs (party > country at the moment); they would want an ironclad case to impeach, not just some little "obstruction of justice" scenario.  Have you heard Mitch McConnell speak?

Kris

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #95 on: May 12, 2017, 10:44:00 AM »
What I don't understand is why the republicans aren't using this (or any) information to impeach Trump.

Pence would be much easier for them to work with and they would probably get a lot more of their agenda passed.

I think the democrats/liberals are lucky Trump is in office because he and his staff are so incompetent that they won't be able to do as much as they could.

I think because, unbelievably, his supporters are completely hypnotized by their pied piper and defend him bigly.  GOP politicians would like to keep their jobs (party > country at the moment); they would want an ironclad case to impeach, not just some little "obstruction of justice" scenario.  Have you heard Mitch McConnell speak?

Yes, this. They do not want to alienate Trump's base -- who, as Trump himself has said, would follow him unquestioningly even if he shot someone dead in the street.

dividendman

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #96 on: May 12, 2017, 10:45:49 AM »
With enough time in office, Trump could be a potential disaster in terms of starting or escalating armed conflicts around the world.

I agree with your analysis except for the above. The good thing on armed conflicts is that Trump has essentially delegated all military control to Mattis, who doesn't seem to be a crazy fuck like Trump.

P.S. I can't believe I'm saying leaving the military to the generals is a good thing... but there you have it.

I think because, unbelievably, his supporters are completely hypnotized by their pied piper and defend him bigly.  GOP politicians would like to keep their jobs (party > country at the moment); they would want an ironclad case to impeach, not just some little "obstruction of justice" scenario.  Have you heard Mitch McConnell speak?

Yes... this could be the case, but many republicans won their districts by far more than Trump, indicating republicans held their nose and voted for another candidate for president or didn't vote at all.

Also, non-crazy republicans have won the white house before, with huge majorities in congress.... why can't that happen again?

And yes, I've heard McConnell.... unfortunately.

Kris

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #97 on: May 12, 2017, 10:55:44 AM »
Also, as kind of an aside, I had a bit of an epiphany this morning, in light of the current events.

So, you all know how Trump famously said he could stand out on Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and not lose his supporters?

When he first said that, I took it it as basically him boasting about his popularity, but also a little bit acknowledging the blindness of his supporters. I mean, it seemed pretty odd for him to be proud of this, right? Who in his right mind would be boasting that his supporters are so brainwashed that they would follow him even if he was proven to be a criminal right out in public? So I kind of thought he was tipping his hand that he knew they were pretty gullible.

But this morning, I realized this: Trump was praising the loyalty of his supporters as being the kind that would lead them to stick with someone who has just committed a felony in public. To him, this is a good thing. Not just strategically advantageous for him. To him, supporting a criminal out of loyalty is an actual virtue.

We all know that loyalty is how he has picked most of his advisers. And apparently, he asked Comey at that dinner to swear loyalty to him, and didn't get that pledge.
When he asked for Comey's loyalty, he was asking for unflinching support for him even when he commits crimes. Not if. When.


Barbaebigode

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #98 on: May 12, 2017, 11:06:49 AM »
This is an actual screen shot of an actual tweet by our actual president.

Unbelievable!

And a couple of months ago he was accusing Obama of wiretapping him.

bacchi

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Re: Political Current Events
« Reply #99 on: May 12, 2017, 03:10:29 PM »
Ah, now Trump's tweet makes sense. Trump is the one taping conversations; the warning to Comey is not to lie because Trump has tapes of what actually occurred.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/05/12/why-its-likely-that-trump-does-have-recordings-of-his-oval-office-conversations/

Eta: Comey doesn't seem to be worried. In fact, per one source, "He hopes there are tapes. That would be perfect."

This whole thing has some legs.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 03:12:37 PM by bacchi »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!