People who yell, and other expressions of feelings

[anon370417]

I was reading this thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/really-struggling-with-my-adolescent-daughter-any-advice-would-be-appreciated/ and noticed several mentions of people, especially men, yelling causing marital problems, childrearing problems, etc. One that particularly bothered me: those who shared that they took on a greater share of the childcare burden to protect their children from the emotional hurt caused by yelling spouses. I was wondering if anyone would be willing to share more about the topic of yelling. Note: for simplicity, I'm going to use "yell" to refer in an all-encompassing way to aggressive forms of verbal expression, such as snapping, barking, and so forth.

• If you aren't someone who usually yells, what are your experiences interacting with those who do? How do you express or handle the same emotions? What do you think enables you to not yell while others do? Have you ever encountered extenuating circumstances that drove you to yelling? Do you think it's an abusive behavior?
• If you do yell, when and why do you do it? Do you think it's an abusive behavior? Even if you don't, do you see it as a problem, and if so what are you doing to change? And if not, why not?
• Finally, if you used to yell but now don't, what triggered the change and what was your journey?

[wordnerd]

My dad was a yeller. I'm not sure it was abusive, but it scared me. I'm sure it played a part in my marrying a quiet, unusually even-keeled man.

I'm not a yeller. I tend to direct the same frustrations inward, resulting in either negative self-talk or sadness. Neither of these reactions are particularly healthy either. The only person who can drive me to yell is my eldest brother, who is a lot like my dad (yelling-wise), only meaner. When we lived together in college and grad school. I would periodically get so angry at him I would yell/ throw things (not at him). I hated how I felt in that state, so out-of-control, almost Hulk-like, in that my actions no longer seemed my own.

Those moments gave me some empathy toward my brother and my dad because it must suck to feel that way on a regular basis, but I'm glad it's not something I have to deal with in my life anymore. In seven years of being together (5 married), my husband and I have never yelled at each other, which I know contributes to me feeling safe in our relationship. 

[milliemchi]

It's true that there are people who are simply loud. When I was in graduate school, I was in a meeting with my PhD adviser and two other students. All three of us came from different Mediterranean countries, and as we were discussing how to spend some money, the volume of the conversation was steadily going up. The adviser, who is a born and raised mild-mannered American, first looked confused, then alarmed, then jumped in with a panicked "Please don't argue, I'm giving you money, not taking it away!", and none of us hot-blooded Mediterraneans saw that coming. We didn't even notice that the volume was up and we were definitely not arguing - we were just having an excited/animated friendly discussion. (I have mellowed over the years.)

Exhibit B are my brother and his wife. They constantly vary between snapping, yelling, and arguing with each other. To me that's no way to live. But for them this is not incompatible with harmony. They just talk like that, but they love each other, and there are no bad feelings afterward. I've talked to my brother, and there is no resentment, and I never feel tension in their home. It's kind of like a fast firecracker going off and then it's done, emotionally speaking, as opposed to a fire that burns and simmers for a long time after the exchange. I have to add that they both dish and receive in the same amount, there is no power dynamic there, which is probably why it works for them. They also live in a Mediterranean country.

I'll write about a different POV in another post.

[milliemchi]

In short:

My mom was abusive in many different ways, including verbal (and physical) aggression. This resulted in me not seeing that behavior as unacceptable, and marrying a men who yells. At the time, I thought it was all a normal part of life, if I got yelled at, I figured that the other person probably has a valid reason to be upset. Now I know that it absolutely was abusive behavior. Of course, given the personality, there were big problems in the marriage, but for many reasons, we stayed together until we had our first kid, 10 years after we married. Two things happened: first, we were both physically and emotionally frazzled by sleep deprivation, I couldn't function properly, and he was getting angry and aggressive partly because of that, which stressed me out and made me even less functional. Second, all the therapy and self-help reading I did over the years suddenly zoomed in in my head, now that I had a daughter, and in a moment of clarity I said "do not yell at me". I don't know why it never occurred to me before that was not a way to treat people. At the moment, I gained a spine and stood up for myself and didn't let someone mistreat me any more. Unfortunately, this was like pouring gasoline on a fire and made things much worse.

Lesson one, standing up for myself, which I still think is the right behavior, didn't work. My advice after that would be to exit the relationship, yesterday, but I couldn't do that for a variety of reasons, so this dragged on.

The yelling continued on. From April until about October, it went on all day, every day. I did get angry, but I was afraid of my wn anger and always suppressed it. I simply ignored my husband's yelling, which, again, I think, made it worse. I had a very deeply ingrained belief that this is not how I behave in a relationship, and that's it. So I let it in one ear, out the other, for about six months. After that, it wore me down and I started yelling back. This was not abusive, it was self-defense. At that point, I remember being completely crushed by the fact that I was dragged down to that level, and that this is how we live. I thought "I am now white trash." It was crushing and identity shattering. It was also humiliating, because I'm sure our neighbors could hear it all. I am now used to the fact that I am not as good of a person as I thought I should be, and as I worked very hard to be. I adjusted to the new reality.

Lessons 2 and 3: Given enough time, you will be dragged down to the level of the people you are dealing with. So choose people wisely.  Also, ignoring an abuser doesn't work. It doesn't just blow over.

Over the years, I regained control over my anger, and was able to keep it in check.  Then I read "Anger Management for Dummies" and some other anger management books, hoping to help the situation. My husband wanted nothing to do with it, but I found out that suppressing your anger effectively does not mean that you don't have an anger issue. Being a quick study of the CBT method, the next week I was free of anger, and it's continued since. I don't get angry because it is not an effective way to deal with a situation. (I'm 5'4" and my husband is 6'4", so for him it has been effective though.) When I feel anger coming over me, I mentally redirect to more helpful thoughts. The small stuff (getting cut off while driving, etc.) don't even register any more. The big stuff I can deal with by reframing ('maybe I don't understand the situation', 'maybe I'm assuming too much', 'this isn't really important anyway', and, of course, 'anger would not be helpful here'). The really stressful stuff that would elicit a big response from an average person, such as being yelled at for many minutes for no good reason, insulted, occasionally cursed, I deal with by just shutting out of the situation. I turn mentally inward to something unrelated and focus on that, or I simply empty my mind and go la-la-la... inside my had.  This now works because now it does blow over. It leaves a bad taste and a desire to call a divorce lawyer, but it doesn't affect the way I think about myself. I've made a pact with myself that every time it happens I will take a step. So far, I've reached the point of getting some divorce lawyer recommendations. The next time it happens, I will make an appointment to discuss the situation. It won't get far, for these episodes are really rare now, but it gives me a sense of control.

Lessons 4, 5, and 6: You can be free of anger. Get some anger management therapy, your life will open for you. Some people do not want to become better people, and there's no help there. Ignoring yelling does help now and it doesn't make it worse. Reacting such as standing up for yourself would still make it worse.

Switching gears...

Back when I was incredibly stressed, I yelled at my toddler more than once, out of anger and without control. This was horrible and abusive, but I am still unable to feel truly guilty for it, because I understand just how stressed I was. Guilt will come in time. But it was bad and it should have never happened. These days, I reach down for my love for my kids, remember that anger is the wrong thing to do, that compassion and teaching the right behavior is the right thing to do, and mentally redirect. These are all anger management techniques. I would never be able to do it without learning those.. I give feedback rather than punish and don't actually have a behavior problem with the kids. I do raise my voice at appropriate times, and occasionally yell a little, but it's with control, short, and truly without anger. That is not abuse, and I don't see it as a problem. It may not be the best parenting, but it's not the worst either.

Only a couple of times after anger management, I've yelled at my son without control. Both times I was working under a deadline, and he would come to me, and wouldn't leave the room when asked, and nudge my hand ever so gently, and just so much that I couldn't use the mouse or the keyboard properly. Then he would repeat that a hundred more times. That is Chinese water torture, and I blew it those two times. This I do see as a problem, as aggressive, and as marginally abusive (it's not truly abusive because there is not an ongoing pattern). I don't work on fixing that on my end because it's so rare that it's not worth the trouble. I do work on fixing it on his end, by teaching obaying requests, delaying gratification, and generally not being a spoiled brat.

Lessons 7 and 8: Being nice to your kids gives the best results. Anger is toxic.

[marble_faun]

I grew up in a Yelling Household.  If you were mad, you yelled and slammed doors. If you were sad, you cried and screamed at the top of your lungs.  All emotions were on the surface at all times. This didn't seem abusive. It was just the we acted, which I thought was normal.

Fast forward to my early adulthood. I was dating a man (now my husband) who grew up in a Calm Discussion Household.  Some time into our relationship, we started arguing about something, and I became a raging banshee. It freaked him out to the point where he had to abruptly exit the apartment rather than continue the conversation.

Of course, I was taken aback and apologized, and I came to understand that he had a different way of arguing.  I spent a lot of time with his family and realized... they are are just very even-keeled, calm people. For years I thought their calmness was a facade, put on for guests. I had never experienced any kind of family life that didn't involve constantly screaming and yelling.  But no.  Even when horrible things happen, my in-laws take it all in stride.

I STRONGLY prefer the no-yelling way of life and gradually adapted to it. When my husband and I disagree, we just talk.  Things are very peaceful with us.

That said, I don't think yelling and screaming within families is somehow pathological.  Growing up, we were just very forthright about what we were feeling. There was no sense of emotional repression, which could have its own problems.

I didn't respond to the above-linked thread, because the girl's behavior seemed to me to be well within the bounds of normal for a 12-year-old who is probably chafing against household rules and a lack of autonomy. I was surprised that so many people thought counseling, etc. would be needed.

[englyn]

What an amazing story, Millie, you've really been put through the blender. You are so strong! So well done on your learning and your resilience and your compassion for yourself and your family. I also admire your ability to tune out in your head and recognise that you can avoid letting it have an effect on you, and your pact with yourself.
Also - you don't have to wait for guilt to arrive about yelling at your kid a few times. You have the right of it now, with your compassion for your earlier stressed self; and the sincerest form of apology is never doing it again, which you have accomplished since you learned better.

 

One that particularly bothered me: those who shared that they took on a greater share of the childcare burden to protect their children from the emotional hurt caused by yelling spouses.

holeee shit, yes I am very glad I did not have any children with my angry, nitpicky ex-husband. This would've happened.

I do not yell. I get angry rarely and mildly. Partly that's just my personality that I don't have those emotions strongly, partly it is that I avoid dwelling on what other people "should" do or not do, and accept that it's rarely personal. I ignore others' yelling, I think it has about the significance of a toddler's tantrum; but I will also avoid having people who yell in my life any more.

I agree that there are times when yelling is not abusive, such as when it does not contribute to a power imbalance. There are also times when it is undoubtedly a major part of a pattern of abuse. Whether or not it can be called abusive in a situation is usually less important than - is it OK with you? Is it worth putting up with? My answer will always be no in future, but it is a choice.

[ptobest]

I was screamed at by my father on a regular basis while growing up, often having no idea why I was being yelled at. For the longest time (and this is something I'm still getting over) whenever someone would be angry/upset about something, I would try to figure out what I did wrong to cause it. I have a really hard time being around people that yell now - I get anxious/panicky and try to leave the area if possible. And, I tend to look negatively on people who scream at others without good cause to do so (i.e. there better be a fire or similar danger). Personally, I have a very hard time expressing anger, which has caused me issues in past relationships when I couldn't sufficiently express the fact that I was upset about something.

I have known a few people with anger management issues, who will scream without the ability to properly control it. I'm sympathetic to that, as it has to be incredibly frustrating, but can't be around that type of person for very long because of it.

[yakamashii]

I yell often. I yell when I'm frustrated, and when I feel that I am being dismissed or disrespected, and when I feel like I am not making myself heard (both of which are frustrating). I yell three or four days out of the week, usually while I'm working. I work at home, but my wife is usually just a few feet away, so she hears it. I yell at her sometimes, too.

I think yelling at the computer or someone who's not there (usually the person who wrote what I am translating at that moment) is quite useful. I'm very intense, and annoyances add up. I've tried sitting on frustration and not yelling, but I inevitably get frustrated at something else and it all comes out anyway. Often, that last straw is something that, in isolation, isn't that frustrating. I see it as better to let it all out at something that can't feel anything, than to let things pile up and have the person holding the hot potato suffer the entirety of my wrath. And once I've cleared the decks of frustration, I'm ready to work/play/talk again pretty quickly.

Yelling can be abusive behavior, but not in all or even a majority of cases. I think it's effective toward expressing _how_ aggravating or hurtful something is. When I'm yelling at someone, I'm often not even angry at them. I'm just angry (about the topic of conversation, or something else), and I'm expressing my anger. If the issue can be resolved, or I can tell that the person understands what is eating me, everything's gravy in a matter of seconds. I've found this is fine with people who are tightly wound like me. It doesn't work well with people who are not.

When I'm yelling at someone because I'm angry at them, I do it because I'm not being respected or taken seriously at a normal volume. I have a short fuse with pushy people, or people who continue to try to get their way when I've clearly said I'm not interested in their way.

I admire people who don't feel the need to yell. I do wish things didn't bother me as much as they do. With my wife especially, when I cool down and we're able to discuss things calmly, and it turns out I've been angry in error, I try not to resort to yelling when the same situation pops up again. Seems like there's a new wrinkle with every new situation, though, so progress is not quick. I don't think frustration is absolute; I think I feel frustration more acutely than the average bear. But I'm loath to dial down the intensity because it serves me well in other ways.

ETA: I'm interested to see how others who are intense or high-strung have managed to cut down on the yelling. Anyone else read the book mentioned by milliemchi?

[Mezzie]

Growing up with yelling definitely scarred me. Everything in my body -- posture, adrenaline -- gets defensive around (angry) yelling. Since I sometimes deal with angry teenagers or parents who blow off steam that way before we can really get down to the issues, this can be difficult for me, and I have to actively keep my posture natural and calm myself while I let them get it all out (I see no point in engaging; I take notes, and when they're done, I summarize the concerns I heard and address each calmly).

I yelled once my first year teaching a very long time ago. I scared myself! It also added to the disorder I yelled about.

Unless someone is shouting about an imminent danger, I find yelling to have little to no purpose. In a classroom setting, I figure I can't be the only one with negative reactions to yelling, so I don't expose my students to that.

I don't yell at people in my family, either, but when I was younger, I think I did yell at my much younger siblings when they were in my care. I didn't know any different.

[gooki]

I've yelled at my son to stop him getting run over by a car.

I've yelled a couple of times at my kids when they've been disrespectful and refused to make it right even when they know it was wrong.

[Mississippi Mudstache]

My wife and I both have a slight propensity to tell. I think we both got yelled at occasionally as children. The lucky thing is that it's exceedingly rare that one of us will snap off at a child when the other doesn't have a level head about things. My wife occasionally intervenes when I'm becoming too emotional with my children, and I do the same to her at times. I wish we were both more even-keeled, but I'm still thankful that it's not always one who's calm and the other who's yelling. And I'm especially glad that we don't both yell at the same time. I really don't think that's ever happened unless one of the children had put themselves in harm's way. I imagine that could be pretty stressful.

We have yelled at each other on a few occasions too. The one thing I've noticed about my wife's yelling is that she seems to remain emotional during a fight for far longer than I do. When she raises her voice at me, I raise mine right back. When we get control of ourselves, though, I'm immediately apologetic and remorseful, whereas she may need to calm down for a couple of hours before she can even talk to in a normal voice again. She is better about catching herself and calming down when it comes to the kids.

Looking at it from a 3rd party vantage point, it's pretty clear that we're raising our children in a very similar way to how we were raised. My parents did a pretty damn good job in spite of the occasional raising of voices, so I think my kids will be OK. I should still try to do better, though.

[marty998]

Wow. Powerful thread guys, thankyou to all who are sharing.

I'm not someone who yells... sure I get pissy and cranky every now and again but I don't raise my voice.

I think if you are resorting to yelling you've probably lost the argument.

[gaja]

We use the entire desibel scale in our house. Loud voices doesn't mean we are out of control angry, rather it can be a useful tool to get feelings out in the open rather than sitting on them. In fact, the youngest child has a tendency to keep everything bottled up, and we can see it isn't good for her. So every once and again when I can see she is steaming, I will ask her to yell a bit and tell me what I'm doing wrong. The oldest child, on the other hand, wears every feeling on the outside. We are working hard to get her to adapt her behaviour to fit with the society's expectations. This unfortunately involves covering up some feelings, so we also have to find good ways to let all the emotions out.

Getting in a yelling match with the oldest is very funny, and something she really appriciates. Doing the same thing with my youngest, could scar her for life. The problem comes when the youngest gets upset because we yell at the oldest. With two so different children, we have also worked very hard to teach the children to explain what their needs are. Life is so much easier now that the youngest can tell me that she needs some quiet time alone, but that she would like to have a chat in an hour or two. Or the oldest can tell me that she is feeling very angry for no reason, and will therefore go to her room and yell into a pillow. For her, keeping a calm voice 100 % of the time would be hell.

[C-note]

I grew up in a no-yell, discussion-based, problem-solving household and I married someone with the same background. 

One of my children is - was - a yeller but didn't "hear" it as yelling.  He is passionate, creative, opinionated, and a middle child so I think he feels like he has (had) to yell/be loud/be forceful to get his point across.  We kept letting him know he was yelling and he would disagree and say he was not yelling.  So we recorded him in a few different conversations.

Once he heard his voice compared to others, he understood how his passionate voice was viewed by others as yelling. 

Since then, he's made a very conscientious effort to lower his voice and tone but still express his passion or strong opinion on a topic.

I think there's yelling in anger and yelling with passion.  I think it's also different to yell at someone versus yell on a topic.   

[milliemchi]

Yeah, I'm pretty adaptable, and I could have lived with being yelled at, if the understanding was that I can yell back at the same intensity and frequency. That was not the case, so it was abusive behavior and NOT OK. Now I'm kind of over yelling, I don't think I would enjoy such interaction in any case, and I know that others don't enjoy it.

[Laura33]

Yeah, ok, so I am one of the folks who talked about staying to intervene and taking more of the childcare burden, so I'll chime in.

First, there are different communication styles.  I grew up sort of midwestern-Methodist-nice, which meant no one raised voices, but also led to a fair bit of passive-aggressive behavior and fear/hatred of confrontation/conflict; I am more likely to approach frustration with sarcasm (teen) or irony (adult).  DH grew up in a stereotypical Brooklyn Jewish household, where normal conversation is louder than my family's version of yelling, and whoever talked loudest got to speak.  There is no fear of confrontation there (MIL's pet name for FIL is "stupid fucking bastard" -- and they are totally in love).  So to start with, we had some basic communication differences to work through.  Honestly, that was really good for me -- to learn that I could be angry with him, say something that he might toally disagree with, and he'd still be there and still love me?  Wow. 

Second, there are different parenting styles.  This is where DH and I had problems.  I am more authoritative:  I see my job as raising future adults, and so my kids always have a voice and I consider their desires, even though I am the ultimate authority; I also tend to intellectualize things and so am always looking for ways to do it better.  DH is definitely authoritarian:  he knows what's best, and it's the kids' job to comply, without complaint.  And since he knows what's best, he is flatly uninterested in books or experts that might give alternate ideas for how to manage something. 

This is where the communication styles from the families we grew up in mesh with parenting styles and caused our problems.  His parents were yellers and authoritarian; he got yelled at, he either did what he was told or found ways to subvert them, but since for him yelling was just sort of normal, he wasn't bothered by it, and so that's how he learned to parent, was by using his force of will and raised bear-like voice to compel his way.  Meanwhile, I was naturally intimidated by yelling and conflict, and so I would find a way to be a peacekeeper; it was very hard for me to know where the line was or how to change his approach without just yelling back, and since I don't like a yelling household, that wasn't something I wanted to do.

Of course, for many kids, DH's parenting style is just fine (worked for him).  But our DD was not one of those kids.  She is, umm, a challenge, unique, always has been -- always moving, always "on," always talking, always challenging, always wanting to control.  So when the parenting skills I knew didn't work, I spent her first 3-4 years reading and looking for alternate ways ("Your Spirited Child" nailed her, btw); he spent those same years chronically frustrated that she wouldn't comply and not doing anything to change his behavior, because of course it was her job as the child to change to meet his expectations. 

In the end, "1-2-3 Magic" was the parenting strategy that worked for me and for her.  The problem is that it requires the parent to remain calm and in control at all times -- it 100% will not work if she can see that she is getting to you.  So, again, huge disconnect with DH -- anything that he sees as sass or backtalk just sets him off.  He can be very Eric Cartman "respect my authori-tay."  And that set her off, and we really got in a horrible cycle of yelling and meltdowns and tantrums (on both sides).  And I was stuck in the middle as peacemaker, wondering how the fuck I ended up with a family like this.  And I was hugely, hugely angry too, but I kept it inside to avoid having more blowups; I mean, it's my job to manage myself and my own anger and generally be a grownup so I can do what is best for my kids.  I was just doubly pissed that DH couldn't figure that out as well.

The ultimate trigger was when DH got mad at toddler DS for something stupid like not cooperating in putting on his coat and yanked his arm to force him to do it.  That was it -- I told DH to back the fuck off and physically took DS away.  I spent the whole day thinking what to say, and that night told DH that he was damn lucky we didn't end up in the hospital, because then we'd have child protective services here, and that he was going to counseling and getting his anger under control, period, no options, no excuses.  I think he was embarrassed by his own overreaction, and he knew by my reaction that I was very, very serious, because I almost never directly confronted him about anything. 

So we went to family counseling, which took the edge off a little but didn't really solve anything (though it did reinforce what I had been saying about how to manage her).  I also just started inserting myself between him and the kids -- I decided the "unified front" is bullshit when one of the parents is acting like a toddler or a bully, and if he started yelling I'd raise my voice and tell him to back off and take the kid off and do something.  It is important my kids know that it is not acceptable to be yelled at or intimidated, especially for little normal-kid stuff, and that I had their back.  And I talk to my kids openly about Daddy's anger, and especially when they hit teens/pre-teens and started modeling that explosiveness, I would ask them to remember how it feels when Dad acted that way to them, and ask them if that is the kind of person they want to grow up to be, or if they want to learn a different way to manage themselves.  I did consider divorce, but decided that leaving little kids alone with him half the time wasn't an improvement, and that it was better to make sure I could be there to protect them and intervene.  It was SO frustrating that such a brilliant man could have so little emotional intelligence that he couldn't see how his actions were affecting his kids or be open to change.  Although maybe I am being unfair; over time, the frequency of the yelling has diminished, either because he has mellowed or the kids got older, or whatever. 

Anyway, this is too long already, but I also have to say that none of this came out until the kids arrived.  He never once yelled at me or belittled me or anything like that while we were dating or in the years we have been married -- and I have never seen him be nasty with anyone else, either (I have no tolerance for people who are mean to people they believe to be lower than them on the totem pole, but DH was always especially polite and considerate to people who were less powerful in the social structure than him).  So I have to chalk this up to learned parenting behavior from his own parents, and an authoritarian respect-authority bent that made him resistant to the idea that what worked fine for him might be a problem for some other kid. 

[omachi]

Not a parent, but I don't yell (at kids or adults) except in the very rare case where something dangerous is happening and thus requires instant attention. I grew up with the same. I can raise my voice a bit in spirited discussion, but it never enters the yelling range. Nor does it ever leave discussion, I'm not about to browbeat somebody I'm talking with, even if I disagree. Actually, I usually speak softly, so my raised voice is probably just closer to average American volume. Ha.

I have encountered people that do yell in anger, though not frequently, and my method of dealing with them tends towards smiling and responding calmly. The majority of the time it seems like the other person will calm down and be a little embarrassed after such a response. There have been a couple times where this just lead to the other party becoming angrier, though. As long as there's no threat of physical violence, it can be entertaining watching somebody get worked up that way. Not that it would be at all fun to a child where the power dynamic is completely different.

I think it comes down to whether people are ruled by their emotions. Some people just don't seem to realize that just because they are angry it doesn't mean they have to express it, or express it loudly. I can calmly state that I'm angry and why without feeling I'm bottling anything up. Lots of people also seem to lack perspective that most things just aren't worth the bother to get angry about. Annoyed maybe, angry no.

[golden1]

I am not a yeller.  My dad and mom did not yell, but my step father did, and I hated it.  He would scream and swear and sometimes throw things (not at people).   I won’t tolerate it in my house because it would drive my stress level through the roof.  My husband doesn’t yell, but he does get “snippy” when things aren’t going his way.  He will clench his jaw and start speaking in short staccato sentences. 

When I am angry I tend to just shut down, which isn’t tremendously healthy, but I honestly have trouble finding a way to communicate when anger overwhelms me.  It is like my mind just goes blank and I want to just flee the situation.  When me and DH have arguements, we often resort to email.  It just defuses everything because there is no physical presence.  I struggle sometimes to model good behavior to my kids as far as anger since I am so uncomfortable with it, and I definitely think DD is similar to me.  She tends to just go to her room when angry. 

[milliemchi]

Oh, oh! I forgot to add! When I get angry now because people are dicks (husband, neighbor) I get a book and read and wait for it to wear off. I am lucky in the sense that I don't stay angry for long over transient things. An hour, maybe. I've had to leave notes to myself that I was angry at my daughter the previous night and that I need to enforce some consequence the next day, because I honestly would forget, and then she gets away with things which is not good. But reading is great, it's another way of pushing things out of my mind and not stew and not get too affected.

[dividendman]

Fast forward to my early adulthood. I was dating a man (now my husband) who grew up in a Calm Discussion Household.  Some time into our relationship, we started arguing about something, and I became a raging banshee. It freaked him out to the point where he had to abruptly exit the apartment rather than continue the conversation.

You remind me of my girlfriend when we first started dating. I wasn't from the calm household, but I'm very calm and don't yell/don't tolerate anyone yelling at me. I walked out on her more than once early on because she started yelling. She hasn't yelled at me in a long time now but I don't really know how she went about changing her behavior, but it happened or we wouldn't be together still.

I think it comes down to whether people are ruled by their emotions. Some people just don't seem to realize that just because they are angry it doesn't mean they have to express it, or express it loudly. I can calmly state that I'm angry and why without feeling I'm bottling anything up. Lots of people also seem to lack perspective that most things just aren't worth the bother to get angry about. Annoyed maybe, angry no.

I agree. Whenever you take an action, you need to ask your rational self: How is this action serving my interests in the short and long term?

If you need to get someones attention immediately because there is going to be death or bodily harm, sure, yell (I've yelled "FORE!" more than once on the golf course). If someone is far away and you need to yell to communicate, go for it. If you're in a crowded loud bar and yelling is the only way to talk, that's OK too.

If you're mad at someone, how does yelling help? How does it serve your interests? I've never come up with good answers for myself and that's why I don't yell.

If I'm getting yelled at by a stranger for some odd reason, I'll usually react calmly or just leave. If I'm getting yelled at by someone I want a relationship with, I generally say "If you keep yelling I'm leaving" and leave. Life is too short to be yelled at for any period of time.

Leaving is a good thing!


P.S. Early in my career I had this one VP who LOVED to yell at groups of people and I had heard the stories but never witnessed it. I got promoted and we were all in a staff meeting and he started going off on this or that. There were maybe 15 of us in the room. He started yelling for maybe 20 seconds, he was mid-yell, and I just gathered my stuff and walked out of the room as he was yelling! He looked so confused but kept on yelling at the group while watching me walk out of the room.

Later he asked me why I left his meeting (probably thinking I had some other meeting to go to or something) and I said "If you want to yell at people, you're going to have to find someone else." He never yelled at a meeting with me in it again.

[Vindicated]

Thanks to all of you for sharing your experiences with something so personal.

I had never witnessed yelling prior to my current job.  It's with a Japanese company, and there are several higher-up managers that yell when they want certain results or are frustrated.  Maybe it's a Japanese leadership/culture thing?  I don't know.

Growing up, if my parents started raising their voices, one of them would just stop the conversation, and that'd be it.  Maybe they'd bring the conversation back up in a few minutes after they had a minute to think about it.  This seemed very rational to me.

Now that I'm a Father, when my little guy (2.5 yrs old) does something he shouldn't, I'll redirect him in a normal tone.  If he continues, I say his name a bit louder.  If he continues, I gently take his hand, sit down with him (to get on his level), and explain in a calm voice what he was doing was unacceptable.  If he's having a tantrum, I ask him to "Take deep breathes".  If there is something I know he wants to do, I tell him he's not going to be able to do it if he continues with the unacceptable behavior.  "If you want to read a book before bed, we have to get our PJs on and brush teeth first."  He'll respond, "PJ brush teeth first?" and I say, "yep!"  It works really well.

My Wife is very calm too, and I can't picture her parents yelling.  They seem very non-confrontational.  When she's trying to redirect our Son, she does a count-to-three, and that works really well for her.  I tried the count-to-three myself, but I must not have the tone right, because it doesn't work as well for me.  I stopped doing it, because I didn't want to delude the effectiveness of when my wife does it.

[yakamashii]

Yeah, I'm pretty adaptable, and I could have lived with being yelled at, if the understanding was that I can yell back at the same intensity and frequency. That was not the case, so it was abusive behavior and NOT OK.

Thank you for putting this into words. I think this is the line between abuse/not abuse. When I'm yelling at/with a person, I expect them to yell, too, if they want to. I also expect to be yelled at if I make someone feel the way I feel before I start yelling (disrespected, dismissed, etc.).

[yakamashii]

I had never witnessed yelling prior to my current job.  It's with a Japanese company, and there are several higher-up managers that yell when they want certain results or are frustrated.  Maybe it's a Japanese leadership/culture thing?  I don't know.

Interesting. I've spent a lot of time in Japan and elsewhere in Asia, and my experience is that people hardly ever yell or show strong emotions in public in Japan (within a company with only internal people present may be different). They definitely feel things, but the rule seems to be to bottle it up and save it for home or karaoke or the weekend hobby. Lot of repressed people, but very pleasant veneer. I hardly ever yell in public in Japan because the people and atmosphere are usually so darn pleasant. It's a major reason why I prefer being here to the States, where I find the atmosphere to be charged. It does feel a bit staged in Japan, though.

I've noticed a lot more yelling in Korea, China and Vietnam. With the latter two, it seems harder to speak softly in a tonal language, but in general people seem far more animated than Japanese people. The passion and anger crackle there.

Bali was a trip, and a place I'd like to spend more time in to see what makes the people tick. No anger at all, and I got the feeling it was genuine, unlike Japan. I'd like to look more into how they learn to live and deal with emotions (or see what their release of emotions actually looks like).

[rdaneel0]

I don't think there's ever a reason to yell unless it's a life or death "FIRE!" or "WATCH OUT FOR THAT TRUCK!" kind of thing. I could never be married to someone who yells when upset anymore than I could be married to someone who punches holes in the wall, or throws things. I feel like saying yelling isn't abusive (in the yeller's opinion) is like saying throwing things is fine as long as you don't throw something that's large at another person. Like is smashing plates against a wall ok if it's clearly not meant to hit anyone? Nope. I feel the same way about yelling.

Grew up in a 50% yelling household. The yellers in the house (one parent and about half the siblings) all said it wasn't a big deal, wasn't angry, wasn't a way to get their own way, and was totally fine, etc. All the non-yellers felt very differently, were frequently afraid, and knew we basically couldn't disagree with or anger the yellers because they would throw fits. Shouting is a form of intimidation and makes rational discussion and compromise completely impossible. I don't see why something that's unacceptable for a child to do is ok for an adult to do. Tantrums are tantrums.

[jaykim0505]

Yelling could only bring short term effect. I had numerous experience of yelling from my parents, but I realized it all didn't work out well but encourages my anger

[RelaxedGal]

I don't think of myself as a yeller, but now that I am a parent... wow.

Sleep deprivation/stress brings my emotions more to the surface, I get angrier, I snap, I yell.  Each year has gotten better and now that my daughter is 6 1/2 years old I don't yell much (to me, she still says I'm yelling when I talk sternly).  She only wakes me up once or twice/week, and I'm only up for 15 minutes, vs 4-5x/week for 45 minutes a year ago.  Now I can give two or three warnings about unwanted behavior.  A year ago one maybe two warnings and then BAM! yelling at her for it.  I have much more tolerance and self awareness when I'm well rested.

[Kris]

I find it pretty interesting how often, it's the case that yellers think yelling is mostly fine, as long as it doesn't move "into abuse." I'm getting the impression that people who don't yell, do not like it, find it scary and unpleasant, and would rather the yeller not yell. Are there any non-yellers who defend yelling as fine?

Personally, one of my favorite things about my husband is that he is not a yeller. In eleven years, I have heard him raise his voice at another exactly once, to say one word: "No." I feel safe and secure with him, and trust that he won't hurt me, emotionally or otherwise.

I can't imagine being in a "mixed" marriage, i.e. with one yeller and one non-yeller. I've been in relationships that were that way, and it wasn't pleasant.

[Vindicated]

Are there any non-yellers who defend yelling as fine?

Maybe a poll would be appropriate.

However, I'm a non-yeller, and the only time I'd consider yelling to be reasonable is if it's to warn someone of danger.  Never to prove a point.  As someone mentioned above, if you have to yell to prove your point, you've lost the argument.

[Kris]

Are there any non-yellers who defend yelling as fine?

Maybe a poll would be appropriate.

However, I'm a non-yeller, and the only time I'd consider yelling to be reasonable is if it's to warn someone of danger.  Never to prove a point.  As someone mentioned above, if you have to yell to prove your point, you've lost the argument.

I find yelling enormously disrespectful of the other person. I can understand losing control of one's emotions once in a while, but if and when that were to happen to me, I would feel compelled to apologize to the other person once I was calmer, and make an effort not to do it again. The only time I wouldn't feel particularly compelled to apologize would be in the case of a very serious hurt done to me (if, for example, I found out my husband had been cheating on me, I wouldn't feel very bad about yelling). Yelling at an adult as a way of getting them to do what you want seems sort of insane to me. I don't see how it's not just bullying, frankly.

[Lepetitange3]

My parents yelled and it was definitely emotionally abusive (in addition to what most of us would now call physical abuse but when I was younger was fairly standard parenting technique).  Our family life growing up was run on pure fear, fear of my parents.  You can pretty accurately guess how that leads to numerous messed up situations when the kids grow up.  Fortunately, me and the other siblings are all on the other side of the drama from the trauma as we call it.

My husband and I are both retired military, and we literally never yell at one another or our children unless there is an immediate dangerous situation that needs addressing.  As in - don't touch that, fire will hurt you! - an excellent result of this strategy is that if we do yell, our young children will instantly stop whatever they are doing because of it.

[Kris]

I find it pretty interesting how often, it's the case that yellers think yelling is mostly fine, as long as it doesn't move "into abuse." I'm getting the impression that people who don't yell, do not like it, find it scary and unpleasant, and would rather the yeller not yell. Are there any non-yellers who defend yelling as fine?

In this thread there have been non-yellers going "it doesn't work for my relationships but I see it work in others." Other than that, not really, which is really natural due to exactly what you said - if one ISN'T comfortable with yelling and someone keeps yelling at them anyway, it IS abusive. So any interaction between a non-yeller and a yeller who isn't aware of the line is going to be uncomfortable at best and toxic at worst.

If you're a yeller and you figure that out, you become a very selective yeller, and unless you hang out with mostly yellers you'll probably end up stopping the behavior entirely around some people who are important to you. If you don't figure it out, you're just an asshole.

Yeah. I can see two yellers working out okay if they both have similar styles and they both know that yelling is just a way they communicate. I mean, I sure as hell wouldn't want that kind of relationship, but I'm willing to believe two yellers in a relationship that both say they're fine with it.

I can't really imagine a non-yeller being fine with a yeller. I can imagine them putting up with it, or tolerating it, but I can't really imagine them embracing it. I'd guess almost to a person, the non-yeller would certainly prefer that the yeller stop yelling. The non-yellers in my life who are with yellers seem to have just closed part of themselves down, as a defense mechanism. Viewed from outside, it looks like it sort of sucks.

[milliemchi]

Yelling could only bring short term effect. I had numerous experience of yelling from my parents, but I realized it all didn't work out well but encourages my anger

My mother was, among other things, physically abusive. She would come from work cranky, try to find a problem with us (room is not picked up or such) and then whoop our assess and not gently. The beatings were very stressful for me and my brother, but we both agreed that they were preferable to her long tirades (often over half hour) of verbal abuse, put downs, insults, etc., that included yelling.

[anon370417]

Great discussion! I've read with a lot of interest (and sometimes heartbreak :'( ). Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences and opinions.

To be clear, I did mean emotional yelling (angry, frustrated, exasperated, upset, etc) as compared to alarm-yelling (FIRE! CHILD, GET AWAY FROM THE ALLIGATOR!) or communication-yelling (CAN YOU HEAR ME OVER THIS GARBAGE TRUCK!?").  Of course we both do those things for practical reasons.

Additional questions for the yellers I was hoping to dig into more (if you're all game!): I think it's clear that yellers are generally fine with being yelled back at; but how do you respond if the person you've raised your voice to does not reciprocate (indicating they are not a yeller)? Many non-yellers indicate that they feel fear that a yeller might be out of control; how does your conversation partner know you are in control (or are you)? Also, the yellers seem to indicate a perceived dichotomy between "yelling/releasing tension" and "bottling up emotions". Have you been in a situation where you felt emotional enough to yell but didn't for some reason (maybe you were in a library)? How did that feel vs when you do yell, or what happened?

Additional questions for non-yellers: Why not yell back? Some possibilities have been mentioned such as identity (I'm not a person who yells), previous trauma (abusive parents/caretakers), power dynamics (e.g. yeller = parent/caretaker), opinion that it's not productive (contradicted by cases where yeller expects equal confrontation and might be frustrated by cowed response? Discuss). Do you have times when you'd like to raise your voice? Is there something you do instead to express your feelings (different tone, words, actions)? Do you think you feel less intensely than yellers, or you have more learned self-control over feelings and/or actions?

Additional questions for everybody: How do you draw the line between near-universally unacceptable ways to express emotions (beating/killing people, property damage) vs expressions that are not physically harmful but may be intimidating, scary, emotionally damaging to a target/bystander (punching a pillow, slamming/throwing things without damage and not at people, yelling, cussing)? How do you draw the line between raised voice/yelling and other sympathetic nervous responses to stress (e.g. crying), which might be on the margins of our control or out of it entirely? Of course crying is not intimidating in the same way yelling is, but it could be used in a manipulative way (intentionally or otherwise).

You remind me of my girlfriend when we first started dating. I wasn't from the calm household, but I'm very calm and don't yell/don't tolerate anyone yelling at me. I walked out on her more than once early on because she started yelling. She hasn't yelled at me in a long time now but I don't really know how she went about changing her behavior, but it happened or we wouldn't be together still.

Do you think this might have come across as dismissive, passive-agressive, and/or controlling?

Yeah, I'm pretty adaptable, and I could have lived with being yelled at, if the understanding was that I can yell back at the same intensity and frequency. That was not the case, so it was abusive behavior and NOT OK.

Thank you for putting this into words. I think this is the line between abuse/not abuse. When I'm yelling at/with a person, I expect them to yell, too, if they want to. I also expect to be yelled at if I make someone feel the way I feel before I start yelling (disrespected, dismissed, etc.).

I find it pretty interesting how often, it's the case that yellers think yelling is mostly fine, as long as it doesn't move "into abuse." I'm getting the impression that people who don't yell, do not like it, find it scary and unpleasant, and would rather the yeller not yell. Are there any non-yellers who defend yelling as fine?

In this thread there have been non-yellers going "it doesn't work for my relationships but I see it work in others." Other than that, not really, which is really natural due to exactly what you said - if one ISN'T comfortable with yelling and someone keeps yelling at them anyway, it IS abusive. So any interaction between a non-yeller and a yeller who isn't aware of the line is going to be uncomfortable at best and toxic at worst.

If you're a yeller and you figure that out, you become a very selective yeller, and unless you hang out with mostly yellers you'll probably end up stopping the behavior entirely around some people who are important to you. If you don't figure it out, you're just an asshole.

I think you four could give me some good answers on the above (and you're within the last posts that show up on the post page as quotable ;) ).

Thanks again everybody!!

[Sibley]

Yeah, I'm pretty adaptable, and I could have lived with being yelled at, if the understanding was that I can yell back at the same intensity and frequency. That was not the case, so it was abusive behavior and NOT OK.

Thank you for putting this into words. I think this is the line between abuse/not abuse. When I'm yelling at/with a person, I expect them to yell, too, if they want to. I also expect to be yelled at if I make someone feel the way I feel before I start yelling (disrespected, dismissed, etc.).

I would add to that, if the individual couldn't be comfortable with being yelled at, even if they could respond in kind, that it is abusive. Regardless of intention of the yeller. That distinction is one that many of the examples posted in this thread did not make, if they were able to.

Edit: brain to typing did not work. Fixing.

[milliemchi]

Also, the yellers seem to indicate a perceived dichotomy between "yelling/releasing tension" and "bottling up emotions".

The whole point of anger management techniques is to erase this dichotomy. You learn to dissipate, rather than suppress your anger. It's beautiful.

Additional questions for non-yellers: Why not yell back?

Because yelling destroys my dignity more than it does that of the other person. If it's possible to control or exit out of the situation without yelling, I will do it so I can feel better about myself. I like being able to tell myself that I am an evolved, respectful human being that is not a chemical response automaton. Plus, it makes the world a better place.

Additional questions for everybody: How do you draw the line between near-universally unacceptable ways to express emotions (beating/killing people, property damage) vs expressions that are not physically harmful but may be intimidating, scary, emotionally damaging to a target/bystander (punching a pillow, slamming/throwing things without damage and not at people, yelling, cussing)?

This is all a matter of degree.  All the above reactions are aggressive behavior that either inflict or threaten damage. So you can make a distinction over what the result is, but these are all done by the same people with varying levels of self-control.  A slight decrease in self-control (alcohol, sleep deprivation...) can shift a person from throwing a plate at the wall to throwing it at a person. To me there is no qualitative difference. You either think aggression is form of communication, or you don't.

How do you draw the line between raised voice/yelling and other sympathetic nervous responses to stress (e.g. crying), which might be on the margins of our control or out of it entirely? Of course crying is not intimidating in the same way yelling is, but it could be used in a manipulative way (intentionally or otherwise).

Aggression vs no aggression. You can ignore a crying person if you think they are being unreasonable. You cannot always ignore an aggressive person, and even if you do, your stress response is activated, which can ruin your health in the long run. As a side note, it is possible to control your crying response if you work on that, just like the aggressive response, and most people have great success in both.

[Sibley]

Great discussion! I've read with a lot of interest (and sometimes heartbreak :'( ). Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences and opinions.

To be clear, I did mean emotional yelling (angry, frustrated, exasperated, upset, etc) as compared to alarm-yelling (FIRE! CHILD, GET AWAY FROM THE ALLIGATOR!) or communication-yelling (CAN YOU HEAR ME OVER THIS GARBAGE TRUCK!?").  Of course we both do those things for practical reasons.

Additional questions for the yellers I was hoping to dig into more (if you're all game!): I think it's clear that yellers are generally fine with being yelled back at; but how do you respond if the person you've raised your voice to does not reciprocate (indicating they are not a yeller)? Many non-yellers indicate that they feel fear that a yeller might be out of control; how does your conversation partner know you are in control (or are you)? Also, the yellers seem to indicate a perceived dichotomy between "yelling/releasing tension" and "bottling up emotions". Have you been in a situation where you felt emotional enough to yell but didn't for some reason (maybe you were in a library)? How did that feel vs when you do yell, or what happened?

Additional questions for non-yellers: Why not yell back? Some possibilities have been mentioned such as identity (I'm not a person who yells), previous trauma (abusive parents/caretakers), power dynamics (e.g. yeller = parent/caretaker), opinion that it's not productive (contradicted by cases where yeller expects equal confrontation and might be frustrated by cowed response? Discuss). Do you have times when you'd like to raise your voice? Is there something you do instead to express your feelings (different tone, words, actions)? Do you think you feel less intensely than yellers, or you have more learned self-control over feelings and/or actions?

Additional questions for everybody: How do you draw the line between near-universally unacceptable ways to express emotions (beating/killing people, property damage) vs expressions that are not physically harmful but may be intimidating, scary, emotionally damaging to a target/bystander (punching a pillow, slamming/throwing things without damage and not at people, yelling, cussing)? How do you draw the line between raised voice/yelling and other sympathetic nervous responses to stress (e.g. crying), which might be on the margins of our control or out of it entirely? Of course crying is not intimidating in the same way yelling is, but it could be used in a manipulative way (intentionally or otherwise).
...

I used to be a yeller, but have learned how to not be one most of the time. Some of it was figuring out how to cope with frustration in other ways. Really not sure how that happened. Also, observation of clearly unhealthy yelling/nonyelling interactions helped get it through my brain that it wasn't always ok. And I have cats, and have always had cats. Yelling scares the cats. Nothing like shame to correct your behavior, and I do not want my cats running from me because they're scared.

Now, when I yell, it's because I'm very frustrated and the "costs" of yelling are low. It's pretty rare.

I don't hit pillows, etc. I will sometimes tear up a piece of paper into very small pieces. Doing something helps, so if I'm cleaning and seem angry, maybe stay away... It's also a good idea to take away my internet when I'm annoyed/cranky. This forum has seen a bit of that.

[acroy]

Interesting thread! thanks for starting & sharing

I think it's clear people are different - some more A, others B... however you want to describe it.

DW and I both have an urge to yell when agitated. We both have to consciously fight it. It is a CHOICE. Self control! It takes effort.
Yelling is an indication of poor self control, poor manners, and especially (for parents) bad example.

[bwall]

Additional questions for non-yellers: Why not yell back?

OMFG! Are you kidding me? Why not just ask why you don't teleport yourself to your safe place? Or call the fairy god-mother to make it go away? Or just close your eyes and ignore everything and then it would go away? Even better; why not just ask yourself what you did wrong and then promise yourself not to do it again?

I grew up on a farm and when (not if) something broke, my step-dad would lose his temper and just fly off in a rage. I was not quite nine years old the first time I saw this on display. Then I was ten years old and I decidedly did *not* have the option of walking off the job, quitting, reporting this outburst to the boss, requesting a transfer, expressing my concern for the lack of anger management skills, exiting the relationship or anything really. I was ten and had to deal with it; no other option. Then I was eleven. Then twelve. Then thirteen. One day, when I was 17 and out of high school (then and only then) did I say 'fuck this and you. I'm outta here. You can do whatever you want to do now, but without me around.'

As a result of this experience, I tend to group yellers in the same category as con-artists, drug dealers and pimps; if it makes you happy; knock yourself out. But in my book your are a piece of shit.

[omachi]

Additional questions for non-yellers: Why not yell back? Some possibilities have been mentioned such as identity (I'm not a person who yells), previous trauma (abusive parents/caretakers), power dynamics (e.g. yeller = parent/caretaker), opinion that it's not productive (contradicted by cases where yeller expects equal confrontation and might be frustrated by cowed response? Discuss). Do you have times when you'd like to raise your voice? Is there something you do instead to express your feelings (different tone, words, actions)? Do you think you feel less intensely than yellers, or you have more learned self-control over feelings and/or actions?

Why would I want to? I'm not going to beat them at their own game, even if I wanted to. I want everybody to know who the person who can't control themselves is, and that it isn't me. I'm not keen on losing my voice. I also know that if your argument relies on volume, you've already lost any debate. If for some reason you're shouting references to research you're probably arguing with a troll who is only out to see you wound up. So I guess I don't see the point of yelling except as a means of warning.

If I'm being pushed too far and know I have some sort of leverage, my tone and the rate at which I speak will change. It takes a lot to get me there, though and I've been told I have the patience of a saint. Really though, I just don't find there's much worth getting that worked up about. It'll pass. But there is a good reason for the saying "beware the wrath of a patient man".

I've long suspected that I either feel less intensely than others or was just more even keeled from the factory. I have no way of knowing, of course, but it is incredibly rare for me to have emotions that would elicit any sort of outburst, good or bad. Most of the time I'm just smiling away, because the balance of things is good.

Additional questions for everybody: How do you draw the line between near-universally unacceptable ways to express emotions (beating/killing people, property damage) vs expressions that are not physically harmful but may be intimidating, scary, emotionally damaging to a target/bystander (punching a pillow, slamming/throwing things without damage and not at people, yelling, cussing)? How do you draw the line between raised voice/yelling and other sympathetic nervous responses to stress (e.g. crying), which might be on the margins of our control or out of it entirely? Of course crying is not intimidating in the same way yelling is, but it could be used in a manipulative way (intentionally or otherwise).

Are they remaining calm and doing this in private or are they making a display of it? If you throw a chair near me, I'm still going to take it as the attempt to intimidate that it is. Frankly, I don't want to hang around people who attempt to intimidate anybody. Life's too short for jerks. If you swallow it, go home, and toss a chair in the privacy of your own home without anybody around, way to delay gratification, I guess. If you then tell me you did so, I'll probably express concern for your mental health.

As for other responses like crying, it depends on the reason. If you're wounded then I'm going to administer first aid and possibly call for medical help if needed. If you're breaking up with somebody, that's generally pretty sad and tears seem expected. If your ice cream cone fell on the ground and you're not six or younger, why are you crying? There's a spectrum, and I expect that everybody has a different point on that where it's acceptable for somebody to cry. But like yelling, crying or any other outburst of emotion isn't a winning argument. And yes, I've been branded as mean for not letting the emotional "win".

All of this is of course to say that the party with the outburst wasn't legitimately about to be harmed in some way. If somebody were being threatened with a knife, I'd expect some yelling or crying or something. My hat would be off to anybody who managed to respond calmly in such situations, because there's a legitimate threat and that dumps a lot of fight or flight chemicals into the brain.

[Laura33]

Oh, I yell.  I have always felt things very intensely, and sometimes it boils over.  I just see yelling at someone as a personal failure, because I am a grown-ass woman, and yelling never actually solves the problem, it just adds fuel to the fire.  And if I am yelling at my kids, it's totally counterproductive-- I'm going to teach them self-control by losing mine?  As mom, it's my job to figure out how to parent effectively -- to do what's best for them, even if it isn't my "natural" response.

To me, there is a big difference between yelling to vent and yelling *at* someone.  Anger and frustration are legitimate emotions, and I don't think it is bad to let your kids see that you feel those things and how you have learned to deal with them.  I have had days where I have just let out a roar, followed by "I am very frustrated right now!!  But I am not mad at you!  I am just frustrated at [some non-personal event]!!"  And actually, usually the absurdity of being so literal at such a high volume helps break the tension and I end up laughing.

What I objected to with DH, OTOH, was that he would direct his anger *at* the kids.  Sometimes it was because they had pushed him past the limit.  But other times I could tell he'd had a bad day at work or something, and the kids would do or say one thing, and he'd jump on them for whatever it was.  So they were his frustration relief device -- he'd blow like a teakettle and vent all that frustration, and then he'd be fine, but the kids would be upset.  I can understand it when the kids push you over the edge, although that's still bad and ineffective parenting that you should have sufficient EQ and maturity to work on instead of viewing it as an acceptable parenting method.  But the "taking it out on the kids" option, well, that's just intolerable to me -- your job as parent is to protect your kids, not be the one they need protection from.

[milliemchi]

Reading the range of responses, I came to think it might be informative if people gave us their (general) age to go with the response. One would expect more maturity and self-control as one ages.

[milliemchi]

If you yell and scream at people you are being abusive and threatening to get your way.  You are placing your needs and wants above others.  Your expectations of winning by bullying are wrong.  You are being an asshole.  Period.

Yes

[yakamashii]

If you yell and scream at people you are being abusive and threatening to get your way.  You are placing your needs and wants above others.  Your expectations of winning by bullying are wrong.  You are being an asshole.  Period.

I disagree. I raise my voice when people try to talk over me when I have the floor and have waited my turn, or push their agenda/product when I have clearly and calmly stated my disinterest. Being dismissive or disrespectful is trying to win by bullying and being an asshole, and being an asshole calmly is still being an asshole. I don't think that loudly standing up for yourself is necessarily being an asshole.

[yakamashii]

Additional questions for the yellers I was hoping to dig into more (if you're all game!): I think it's clear that yellers are generally fine with being yelled back at; but how do you respond if the person you've raised your voice to does not reciprocate (indicating they are not a yeller)? Many non-yellers indicate that they feel fear that a yeller might be out of control; how does your conversation partner know you are in control (or are you)? Also, the yellers seem to indicate a perceived dichotomy between "yelling/releasing tension" and "bottling up emotions". Have you been in a situation where you felt emotional enough to yell but didn't for some reason (maybe you were in a library)? How did that feel vs when you do yell, or what happened?

Additional questions for everybody: How do you draw the line between near-universally unacceptable ways to express emotions (beating/killing people, property damage) vs expressions that are not physically harmful but may be intimidating, scary, emotionally damaging to a target/bystander (punching a pillow, slamming/throwing things without damage and not at people, yelling, cussing)? How do you draw the line between raised voice/yelling and other sympathetic nervous responses to stress (e.g. crying), which might be on the margins of our control or out of it entirely? Of course crying is not intimidating in the same way yelling is, but it could be used in a manipulative way (intentionally or otherwise).

I don't think it's as simple as yeller/non-yeller. My wife would probably say she is not a yeller, but I've seen her yell several times. Same thing as me (vastly higher threshold, though): She's exhausted her patience at a normal volume, and is still not being heard. When my wife yells, I shut up and listen because I know how seriously she needs to be heard right then. In a way, I wish I yelled as infrequently as she does, because it's more powerful that way (powerful for being heard, not for subjecting someone to your will; there's a difference).

For me, anger takes a long time to dissipate. Only a bunch of time alone or a complete change of subject/atmosphere have proven to work. When I'm frustrated at work, I don't have three hours to let it go; I need to keep working. Release by growling at the computer or the creator of the problem (never present), return to work.

If I don't release anger, something else is bound to trigger it, and as I said before, the eventual trigger is often far more trivial (and innocent) than the original source of the anger. I think non-yellers on this thread have also mentioned the dichotomy between releasing and repressing, and that dissipation could be the bridge between those two extremes, and that people who would deny that dichotomy clearly don't feel anger or frustration as intensely as others of us do.

Nobody yells because everything's right with the world. Someone who is yelling is saying that something is wrong, and often times, something is indeed wrong. I think that statements like "if you have to resort to yelling, you've lost the argument" are pretty damn smug. As if the validity of what a person says is determined by the delivery alone. Calmness doesn't automatically make someone right, or good, or more mature, or better.

[yakamashii]

If you yell and scream at people you are being abusive and threatening to get your way.  You are placing your needs and wants above others.  Your expectations of winning by bullying are wrong.  You are being an asshole.  Period.

I disagree. I raise my voice when people try to talk over me when I have the floor and have waited my turn, or push their agenda/product when I have clearly and calmly stated my disinterest. Being dismissive or disrespectful is trying to win by bullying and being an asshole, and being an asshole calmly is still being an asshole. I don't think that loudly standing up for yourself is necessarily being an asshole.

Why do you let people have such power over you, that they can push your buttons to provoke such an uncivilized response?

Their behavior is disrespectful, and they're not stopping it with reasonable requests at a normal volume. What do you do when people disrespect you?

[yakamashii]

Pizzabrewer, you're right that we're talking about different things. I agree with you that yelling to exert dominance over others is dickish behavior.

The sentiment that I got from your statement (yelling = being an asshole, full stop) was that it included yelling to be heard when other ways to be heard haven't worked. It's a conflation that I think a lot of people make, and it bothers me because to make that conflation is to dismiss how acutely some things hurt for some people.

I'm not arguing that yelling is an effective or particularly awesome thing to do. I'd love to ignore people who push buttons, or have a calm way of inappropriately asserting themselves that would look as inappropriate as it is if only they weren't so calm. I grew up in an environment where silence meant consent, so I tend to not want to let anyone even think I'm okay with things I'm not okay with. That's the main reason I'll yell at a person, to show that I am not okay with what's going down right now.

I have a shorter fuse than most, and I know yelling at people makes me look bad and look like the asshole, but in the moment it seems better than having the record show I didn't defend myself. It's a deep-seated issue with respect that I'm working through.

[joonifloofeefloo]

I think yelling is good, in specific, limited, occasional circumstances.

I also far prefer people who yell occassionally than do passive-aggression, passivity, silent treatment, stuffing their anger, denying their anger, faking niceness, etc.

The yelling I hate is "fun" yelling. i.e., While watching a televised hockey game; drunks walking through a peaceful neighbourhood; etc. So, anger cleanly expressed with a yell doesn't phase me, while the volume and abruptness of "fun" yelling really hits me at a sensory level and can throw me for many hours.

[anon370417]

Additional questions for non-yellers: Why not yell back?

Because yelling destroys my dignity more than it does that of the other person. If it's possible to control or exit out of the situation without yelling, I will do it so I can feel better about myself. I like being able to tell myself that I am an evolved, respectful human being that is not a chemical response automaton. Plus, it makes the world a better place.
[/quote]

On the whole I agree with you, but I'm trying to challenge my assumptions and in my mind it's almost like circular reasoning. Civilized people don't yell (etc), and I don't yell because I want to be a civilized person. Are we missing some positive in expressing ourselves more fully; or are we missing the harm it might do another to suppress the instinct to do so? I am an angry/frustrated crier; I do fight it as much as I can and I'd say in public I'm very successful (maybe had to hide 2x at work to pull myself together), but around family it's always been much more difficult to hold it in (perhaps I feel safe?). Since it's basically an involuntary reaction, I would hate for someone to call it manipulative or damaging to those around me, even though I know it does stress out the other party(ies), and gets me taken more seriously so could be unintentional manipulation? That would feel very repressive to me. Am I doing the same by saying if someone's voice goes up when they're stressed it's unacceptable?

Additional questions for non-yellers: Why not yell back?

OMFG! Are you kidding me? Why not just ask why you don't teleport yourself to your safe place? Or call the fairy god-mother to make it go away? Or just close your eyes and ignore everything and then it would go away? Even better; why not just ask yourself what you did wrong and then promise yourself not to do it again?

I grew up on a farm and when (not if) something broke, my step-dad would lose his temper and just fly off in a rage. I was not quite nine years old the first time I saw this on display. Then I was ten years old and I decidedly did *not* have the option of walking off the job, quitting, reporting this outburst to the boss, requesting a transfer, expressing my concern for the lack of anger management skills, exiting the relationship or anything really. I was ten and had to deal with it; no other option. Then I was eleven. Then twelve. Then thirteen. One day, when I was 17 and out of high school (then and only then) did I say 'fuck this and you. I'm outta here. You can do whatever you want to do now, but without me around.'

As a result of this experience, I tend to group yellers in the same category as con-artists, drug dealers and pimps; if it makes you happy; knock yourself out. But in my book your are a piece of shit.

In the situation you describe, the reasons are obviously an imbalance of power as well as eventually previous trauma. I asked the question not in a victim-blaming sense but entirely in an informational sense: I wanted to know what reasons non-yellers had for making that choice. Personally, I always expect it to make the situation worse, more aggressive, more emotional. But listening to some of the yellers, it seems like that may not be the case, and it may actually rile them up more to have someone withdraw emotionally/verbally (but not physically).

Additional questions for everybody: How do you draw the line between near-universally unacceptable ways to express emotions (beating/killing people, property damage) vs expressions that are not physically harmful but may be intimidating, scary, emotionally damaging to a target/bystander (punching a pillow, slamming/throwing things without damage and not at people, yelling, cussing)? How do you draw the line between raised voice/yelling and other sympathetic nervous responses to stress (e.g. crying), which might be on the margins of our control or out of it entirely? Of course crying is not intimidating in the same way yelling is, but it could be used in a manipulative way (intentionally or otherwise).

Are they remaining calm and doing this in private or are they making a display of it? If you throw a chair near me, I'm still going to take it as the attempt to intimidate that it is. Frankly, I don't want to hang around people who attempt to intimidate anybody. Life's too short for jerks. If you swallow it, go home, and toss a chair in the privacy of your own home without anybody around, way to delay gratification, I guess. If you then tell me you did so, I'll probably express concern for your mental health.

As for other responses like crying, it depends on the reason. If you're wounded then I'm going to administer first aid and possibly call for medical help if needed. If you're breaking up with somebody, that's generally pretty sad and tears seem expected. If your ice cream cone fell on the ground and you're not six or younger, why are you crying? There's a spectrum, and I expect that everybody has a different point on that where it's acceptable for somebody to cry. But like yelling, crying or any other outburst of emotion isn't a winning argument. And yes, I've been branded as mean for not letting the emotional "win".

All of this is of course to say that the party with the outburst wasn't legitimately about to be harmed in some way. If somebody were being threatened with a knife, I'd expect some yelling or crying or something. My hat would be off to anybody who managed to respond calmly in such situations, because there's a legitimate threat and that dumps a lot of fight or flight chemicals into the brain.

I think you're being idealistic. Yes, ideally, we would be able to calmly/rationally take in stride anything that isn't actually life-or-death fear, pain, etc. But in reality...I'm pretty sure most couple's fights aren't about the big stuff (of course some are); but most are at an inconvenient moment over something ridiculous. You both come home tired, you're trying to make dinner, they keep getting in your way, your blood boils and you snap, they're pretty fed up because you've been getting in *their* way but *they* didn't say anything, and also they've made dinner *by themselves* every other night this week so they're irritated to have to help at all, so they're extra offended that you're being a hypocrite so then they snap back and you don't realize the background of it so you yell at them, and so forth...Or, feelings get pent up with the best of intentions (they're going through a deadline at work, bad news, etc are you really going to add your feelings to stuff they need to manage?) and then with some ridiculous thing the feelings boil over. I guess, in a nutshell what I'm trying to say is that our stupid animal brains don't just respond to life-or-death situations with life-or-death stress; we have similar reactions to much more minor occurrences.

Being dismissive or disrespectful is trying to win by bullying and being an asshole, and being an asshole calmly is still being an asshole. I don't think that loudly standing up for yourself is necessarily being an asshole.

I think it's a really good point that it's possible to be an asshole in non-aggressive ways. E.g. an earlier poster's tactic of walking out on any situation where yelling (/raised voices?) occurred. While there was a bit of catharsis imagining doing this, there was also a sense of being dismissive and an asshole. As another example, some posters on the "adolescent daughter" post pointed out the younger sibling could be eliciting a negative reaction by "poking the bear." Definitely a feature in sibling interactions; and the younger/smaller siblings gets to remain angelic-looking the whole time...

I think we're talking about 2 fundamentally different things.  People who yell to exert dominance over others is how I read this thread.

Yelling in response to being disrespected is a different story.  Yet you have to recognize the control this person has over you to provoke such a response in you.  It doesn't make you better or help you "win", it drags you down to their level.

I expect we're all somewhat familiar with the "everyone's a hero in their own story" phenomenon. It is distinctly possible that Party A feels disrespected or slighted in some way, but Party B feels like they're flying off the handle about nothing whatsoever, or worse that Party A is shutting Party B down with their demeanor, i.e. exerting dominance.

---

I was actively trying to stay neutral in my last 2 posts to encourage fairly evenhanded discussion, but I'm willing to admit now that I'm a late-20's anti-yeller but extremely interested in finding out more about the yeller psyche, self-image, etc. so as to better know how to handle any yellers I encounter in my life. One observation I've made in life (vs this conversation) so far: it seems like those with more tendency to yell/raise voice tend to "speed up" when stressed (they want responses more quickly, they might lose some impulse control, might tend to say things they'll regret) whereas I have a (definitely learned!) response to "slow down" instead. I will mull every statement over like a chess move, how can it be taken wrong, is it actually conveying what I want to say? I will analyze my feelings extensively to get to the root of what is bothering me (since it's rarely whatever the silly trigger was) and then want to talk about it. Does anyone else relate, agree, disagree?

[milliemchi]

Pizzabrewer, you're right that we're talking about different things. I agree with you that yelling to exert dominance over others is dickish behavior.

The sentiment that I got from your statement (yelling = being an asshole, full stop) was that it included yelling to be heard when other ways to be heard haven't worked. It's a conflation that I think a lot of people make, and it bothers me because to make that conflation is to dismiss how acutely some things hurt for some people.

I'm not arguing that yelling is an effective or particularly awesome thing to do. I'd love to ignore people who push buttons, or have a calm way of inappropriately asserting themselves that would look as inappropriate as it is if only they weren't so calm. I grew up in an environment where silence meant consent, so I tend to not want to let anyone even think I'm okay with things I'm not okay with. That's the main reason I'll yell at a person, to show that I am not okay with what's going down right now.

I have a shorter fuse than most, and I know yelling at people makes me look bad and look like the asshole, but in the moment it seems better than having the record show I didn't defend myself. It's a deep-seated issue with respect that I'm working through.

Just to let you know that looking from outside in, this sounds all wrong. There must be multiple people in your life who see it the same way.

If you are not being heard because someone is refusing to hear you, yelling doesn't help. You can intimidate someone into no open disagreement, but that's not the same thing.

Silence does not mean consent, at least not in the US. If you're not hearing "yes that's a good idea", there is no consent. Comments along the lines of "that's an interesting way of looking at things", "I don't know if I would agree with that", and similar calm and seemingly non-committal statements all mean "I think you are wrong". Silence means even less agreement, because you are not even engaging with the other person on their terms. Your family spoke a dialect different from most, so you need to learn the predominant dialect in order to communicate properly with the rest of the world.

[milliemchi]

I was actively trying to stay neutral in my last 2 posts to encourage fairly evenhanded discussion, but I'm willing to admit now that I'm a late-20's anti-yeller but extremely interested in finding out more about the yeller psyche, self-image, etc. so as to better know how to handle any yellers I encounter in my life. One observation I've made in life (vs this conversation) so far: it seems like those with more tendency to yell/raise voice tend to "speed up" when stressed (they want responses more quickly, they might lose some impulse control, might tend to say things they'll regret) whereas I have a (definitely learned!) response to "slow down" instead. I will mull every statement over like a chess move, how can it be taken wrong, is it actually conveying what I want to say? I will analyze my feelings extensively to get to the root of what is bothering me (since it's rarely whatever the silly trigger was) and then want to talk about it. Does anyone else relate, agree, disagree?

I have a similar response now (it wasn't always like that, but this works much better for all). Also, when I am in a rush and late for something, I drive slower than usual. That may be a very unusual response, but it prevents accidents. Mentally, it works the same way as preventing yelling by becoming more rational when upset. I also get very task focused when in danger, I don't panic. All the same thing.