Author Topic: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs  (Read 5028 times)

nereo

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Recently this topic has come up IRL among my small group of friends and i"m curious what other people's take is on it.

Background:  There's a local diner I like owner and operated by the same family for decades. I recently suggested to a coworker that we stop there and he told me he no longer eats there after he discovered the owner supports _____ and gives money every year to _____.  This was news to me, and I've never seen or heard anything at all that would suggest the owners political-social views one way or another. It's an independently owned place that hires local teenagers to work and buys much of their stuff from nearby farms.

This is opened up a lively debate.  My coworker argues that every time I eat there a small percentage of my bill goes towards candidates and views I don't necessarily support.  But while the owners may be big donors to these causes, I know the margins on diners is razor thin, and >90% of my small bill goes towards the ingredients, staff and overhead, nad only a small percentage goes to the owner (of which an even smaller slice gets donated by the owner).  There's also the idea of acceptance and tolerance.
Coworkers argues this is quintessential "voting with your wallet" and envisions a management change if enough people boycotted this establishment.

What do you think?  Would you patronize a business who held opposing viewpoints, provided they kept these views to themselves?

ETA: The beliefs and causes supported fall along normal ideology divisions; a particular party, a particular stance on abortion, etc.  We aren't talking about neo-nazis or eco-terrorists, nor are the owners (AFAIK) anything but upstanding, law-abiding citizens.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 07:21:24 AM by nereo »
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Dabnasty

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2018, 06:55:23 AM »
I think I would, potentially. It depends on how much I like their product/service vs. how much I dislike their views. Avoiding a diner wouldn't mean much from me with how little I eat out anyway. Avoiding a grocery store with the lowest prices in town on the other hand would be a bigger decision.

In terms of how much I dislike their views, I wouldn't avoid a business because I disagreed with the owner on tax policy. But if they supported certain politicians or held hateful views I would, and it may go beyond the fact that they donate to their politicians. I can see doing it as more of a general FU if they are outright hateful. Even though you can say that a very small portion of your bill is going to support the politics, I would argue that your money that goes to support the business is also going towards their cause. Customers are what make the business successful and a successful business is required to make those donations.

Barbaebigode

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2018, 06:56:09 AM »
What do you think?  Would you patronize a business who held opposing viewpoints, provided they kept these views to themselves?

It depends on how extreme are those viewpoints. I wouldn't be comfortable giving money to an actual neo nazi. So no?

obs: It's not the exact same case but people are put off buying products that are associated with an opposing view, even if it's a rational buy. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2013/04/130430-light-bulb-labeling/

Psychstache

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2018, 07:02:25 AM »

What do you think?  Would you patronize a business who held opposing viewpoints, provided they kept these views to themselves?

Had something like this come up a while back. We used this guy for silk screening on shirts for a program. Have used him for a couple of years need on his price. Last time I was in with him, I guess he felt comfortable enough with me to share his incredible disgust for all "Mexicans" (his term for basically all Brown people). After that exchange, we decided to cough up a few more bucks to use someone else.

I agree with what was said above: minor policy disagreements I don't think I would bother, but this was a little more than that.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 09:10:03 AM by Psychstache »

nereo

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2018, 07:23:17 AM »
What do you think?  Would you patronize a business who held opposing viewpoints, provided they kept these views to themselves?

It depends on how extreme are those viewpoints. I wouldn't be comfortable giving money to an actual neo nazi. So no?

Edited the OP - no the viewpoints aren't 'extreme' as viewed by our modern politics. They are just at the other end of the spectrum for what my coworker believes, and that alone is enough for him to not go back there, and for him to encourage others to essentially boycott this business.
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merula

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2018, 07:40:38 AM »
I think your coworker is technically correct: these business owners are only able to donate to _____ because they operate a business successfully. So every time you spend money at their business, some amount goes to ______. But, to your point, some amount also goes to supporting your community by employing local teenagers and nearby farms.

So, if you spend $10 at this diner, and $0.10 goes to ______ while $2.00 goes to supporting your community, and that's acceptable to you, then great, continue to patronize that diner. Your friend may have a stronger aversion to ______, or not see the community piece as quite as beneficial, or whatever, and come to a different conclusion. Reasonable people can disagree.

For me personally, I've been known to stop patronizing businesses based on their views on transit policy and parking. I don't think "well, as long as it's not a REALLY BAD view, you should just ignore it" is a compelling argument. I can't possibly patronize all businesses in my city, so I might as well choose among them using all the information I have. If one used book store papers their windows with screeds against trains, and one doesn't, I might as well buy from the one that doesn't.

On the flip side, some things are trade-offs. My megacorp employer lobbied for recent legislation that I am strongly opposed to. The work I do goes to making my employer money which goes to paying for that lobbying which (IMO) is truly detrimental to society. Do I quit? My employer is a company I believe in, and I think that overall they do much more good than bad, so I've opted to stay. (But I will be tucking that away for FIRE, because I think I'm going to be susceptible to OMY syndrome.)

I'm a red panda

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2018, 07:58:19 AM »
I live in Iowa. I hold very progressive political views.  It would be impossible for me to not patronize businesses where people have different viewpoints.

But if they are public enough that I know about their viewpoints- well then my money does not go to them.  This goes for both small businesses and national/global ones.  I guess the national/global ones I hold some stock in through index funds...


The one that I am torn on is Chic-fil-A.  The national brand I really don't want to support. Our local owner sponsors free food at Pride every year. 


Edit: The example below mine is a great one. I will NOT go to the relgious affiliated hospital in our city anymore. I strongly believe the religious affiliation affected my care in the past, to a hugely negative degree. My current provider agrees that there is a strong possibility information was omitted (I was lied to) to prevent a certain action on my part due to that affiliation.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 08:50:05 AM by I'm a red panda »

wenchsenior

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2018, 08:04:40 AM »
If I knew that type of specific info about a business that the OP states, I would make the call on a case by case basis, depending on how strongly I felt about it.

I deal with a less political version of this every day in our city.  About every third business has religious iconography (SOOOOOOO many crosses, sometimes multiple ones per business lobby), inspirational religious posters, overtly religious employees. For example, it's incredibly  common to have people here end a professional interaction with "Have a blessed day!", which I find creepy.  I have twice encountered doctors at the University Medical Hospital (NOT the local religiously affiliated hospital) who asked if we could pray together at the end of my appointment!  The doctor who was about to do my mother's cataract surgery (she was literally gowned and prepped) asked if he could pray with her before doing it!  My mother looked at him like she thought he'd gone insane...it was pretty funny.

Extreme religiosity is so prevalent here, that If I didn't do business with them, in some cases I couldn't get the business done. 

nereo

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2018, 08:11:33 AM »
I think your coworker is technically correct: these business owners are only able to donate to _____ because they operate a business successfully. So every time you spend money at their business, some amount goes to ______. But, to your point, some amount also goes to supporting your community by employing local teenagers and nearby farms.

So, if you spend $10 at this diner, and $0.10 goes to ______ while $2.00 goes to supporting your community, and that's acceptable to you, then great, continue to patronize that diner. Your friend may have a stronger aversion to ______, or not see the community piece as quite as beneficial, or whatever, and come to a different conclusion. Reasonable people can disagree.

For me personally, I've been known to stop patronizing businesses based on their views on transit policy and parking. I don't think "well, as long as it's not a REALLY BAD view, you should just ignore it" is a compelling argument. I can't possibly patronize all businesses in my city, so I might as well choose among them using all the information I have. If one used book store papers their windows with screeds against trains, and one doesn't, I might as well buy from the one that doesn't.

On the flip side, some things are trade-offs. My megacorp employer lobbied for recent legislation that I am strongly opposed to. The work I do goes to making my employer money which goes to paying for that lobbying which (IMO) is truly detrimental to society. Do I quit? My employer is a company I believe in, and I think that overall they do much more good than bad, so I've opted to stay. (But I will be tucking that away for FIRE, because I think I'm going to be susceptible to OMY syndrome.)

Good food for thought. Certainly one needs to weigh the good and the bad to make a decision (e.g. 10˘ might go to a cause I don't like vs. $2 that goes towards the community at large). The choice also does not exist in a vacuum; in this area there aren't many businesses and our other choices are large mega-corp fast-dining establishments. This is a fairly rural area.\ Personally, the internal conflict is surrounding the concepts of tolerance and supporting your beliefs. If we took money out of hte equation entirely - let's say it was a question of my kid playing on a soccer team coached by this man.  I'd have no problem that so long as he kept politics out of his practices.  And in effect that is what he has done with his business.  Sure, his business generates the money he then donates, but if someone works to make everyone feel welcome regardless of their beliefs (as he does with his establishment) am I being a worse person for saying "you're willing to serve me despite my beliefs, but I won't extend you the same courtesy"?  Would I then be the intolerant one?
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Dabnasty

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2018, 08:31:52 AM »
I think your coworker is technically correct: these business owners are only able to donate to _____ because they operate a business successfully. So every time you spend money at their business, some amount goes to ______. But, to your point, some amount also goes to supporting your community by employing local teenagers and nearby farms.

So, if you spend $10 at this diner, and $0.10 goes to ______ while $2.00 goes to supporting your community, and that's acceptable to you, then great, continue to patronize that diner. Your friend may have a stronger aversion to ______, or not see the community piece as quite as beneficial, or whatever, and come to a different conclusion. Reasonable people can disagree.

For me personally, I've been known to stop patronizing businesses based on their views on transit policy and parking. I don't think "well, as long as it's not a REALLY BAD view, you should just ignore it" is a compelling argument. I can't possibly patronize all businesses in my city, so I might as well choose among them using all the information I have. If one used book store papers their windows with screeds against trains, and one doesn't, I might as well buy from the one that doesn't.

On the flip side, some things are trade-offs. My megacorp employer lobbied for recent legislation that I am strongly opposed to. The work I do goes to making my employer money which goes to paying for that lobbying which (IMO) is truly detrimental to society. Do I quit? My employer is a company I believe in, and I think that overall they do much more good than bad, so I've opted to stay. (But I will be tucking that away for FIRE, because I think I'm going to be susceptible to OMY syndrome.)

Good food for thought. Certainly one needs to weigh the good and the bad to make a decision (e.g. 10˘ might go to a cause I don't like vs. $2 that goes towards the community at large). The choice also does not exist in a vacuum; in this area there aren't many businesses and our other choices are large mega-corp fast-dining establishments. This is a fairly rural area.\ Personally, the internal conflict is surrounding the concepts of tolerance and supporting your beliefs. If we took money out of hte equation entirely - let's say it was a question of my kid playing on a soccer team coached by this man.  I'd have no problem that so long as he kept politics out of his practices.  And in effect that is what he has done with his business.  Sure, his business generates the money he then donates, but if someone works to make everyone feel welcome regardless of their beliefs (as he does with his establishment) am I being a worse person for saying "you're willing to serve me despite my beliefs, but I won't extend you the same courtesy"?  Would I then be the intolerant one?

Agreed, I wouldn't disassociate with anyone unless their views were extreme and I thought they would be pushing them on my kid. In fact in some ways I would want to encourage interaction with differing viewpoints.

This may be getting down to the point of unanswerable questions, but what if he's only willing to accommodate everyone because it's good for business? All else being equal, maybe he wouldn't want to serve you. Also, I would argue that accepting money is different than paying it, especially in terms of a luxury purchase like restaurant food. The owner becomes more wealthy/successful. You enjoy a meal but become less wealthy.

J Boogie

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2018, 08:43:33 AM »
I live in Iowa. I hold very progressive political views.  It would be impossible for me to not patronize businesses where people have different viewpoints.

But if they are public enough that I know about their viewpoints- well then my money does not go to them.  This goes for both small businesses and national/global ones.  I guess the national/global ones I hold some stock in through index funds...


The one that I am torn on is Chic-fil-A.  The national brand I really don't want to support. Our local owner sponsors free food at Pride every year.

I wouldn't be torn. Either they allow/encourage their freedom to do so, which makes them worth patronizing, or this franchise owner is totally sticking it to the man and I'd want to support him/her.

J Boogie

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2018, 08:45:37 AM »
I would only boycott if I morally objected to their donations.


merula

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2018, 10:19:36 AM »
Good food for thought. Certainly one needs to weigh the good and the bad to make a decision (e.g. 10˘ might go to a cause I don't like vs. $2 that goes towards the community at large). The choice also does not exist in a vacuum; in this area there aren't many businesses and our other choices are large mega-corp fast-dining establishments. This is a fairly rural area.\ Personally, the internal conflict is surrounding the concepts of tolerance and supporting your beliefs. If we took money out of hte equation entirely - let's say it was a question of my kid playing on a soccer team coached by this man.  I'd have no problem that so long as he kept politics out of his practices.  And in effect that is what he has done with his business.  Sure, his business generates the money he then donates, but if someone works to make everyone feel welcome regardless of their beliefs (as he does with his establishment) am I being a worse person for saying "you're willing to serve me despite my beliefs, but I won't extend you the same courtesy"?  Would I then be the intolerant one?

Dabnasty's point about spending money being different than accepting it is a good one. This diner can choose to support _____ with donations, they can choose to put pro-_____ posters up, they can choose to hire suppliers and contractors that similarly support _____. But they probably could not refuse to serve your friend if they found out that he was against _____. We all have the choice of our patronage but not our patrons.

Also, if this diner doesn't put anything to indicate their view on ____ in their restaurant, it's probably because they don't want people to know because others would take the same position your friend does. There's an information disparity that they're using to their advantage.

cats

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2018, 10:54:05 AM »
Yes, I would, but as others have said, it definitely depends on the issue or how strongly the business/owner vocalizes their viewpoint.  i.e. I'm not going to ask a business owner to fill out a questionnaire before I decide whether or not to patronize, but if something about their views comes out and it makes me uncomfortable to patronize them...well I'm going to go elsewhere.

An issue I have had more in the past is business owners who are not necessarily openly opposed to me on political or social issues (e.g. abortion, immigration, gay rights, etc.), but who live a MUCH more consumption oriented lifestyle than I consider reasonable.  I'm really uncomfortable with my money going to buy someone else a bunch of disposable stuff that I would never in a million years buy for myself.

nereo

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2018, 11:00:03 AM »

Dabnasty's point about spending money being different than accepting it is a good one. This diner can choose to support _____ with donations, they can choose to put pro-_____ posters up, they can choose to hire suppliers and contractors that similarly support _____. But they probably could not refuse to serve your friend if they found out that he was against _____. We all have the choice of our patronage but not our patrons.

Also, if this diner doesn't put anything to indicate their view on ____ in their restaurant, it's probably because they don't want people to know because others would take the same position your friend does. There's an information disparity that they're using to their advantage.

It's possible that they not advertising their position because they fear more backlash - but nit's also possible they are keeping this on the DL because they want to keep their business dealings and personal positions seperate.  FWIW I use the latter approach.  Regardless, how much does it matter to me why they are doing it?  This is akin to Sternberg's decision tree and whether it matters to anyone but the decision-maker the motivation behind a particular decision.  I want a reasonably priced meal without the pressure of someone's ideology pushed on me, and that has been my experience - does it matter if the seperation is because the owner thinks it morally wrong to force their views on paying patrons, or because he just doesn't want to lose business?

THe point about it being whether you are on the giving or receiving end of the money transaction is a good one.  But this begs the question - do business owners have to avoid any political affiliations in their private lives now to avoid these sorts of boycotts?  Regardless of how private and segregated they try to keep it from their businesses?  I feel like in today's day and age its far easier for internet vigilantees to peg down your afilitation and notify everyone of your position.
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Jrr85

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2018, 11:20:23 AM »
Recently this topic has come up IRL among my small group of friends and i"m curious what other people's take is on it.

Background:  There's a local diner I like owner and operated by the same family for decades. I recently suggested to a coworker that we stop there and he told me he no longer eats there after he discovered the owner supports _____ and gives money every year to _____.  This was news to me, and I've never seen or heard anything at all that would suggest the owners political-social views one way or another. It's an independently owned place that hires local teenagers to work and buys much of their stuff from nearby farms.

This is opened up a lively debate.  My coworker argues that every time I eat there a small percentage of my bill goes towards candidates and views I don't necessarily support.  But while the owners may be big donors to these causes, I know the margins on diners is razor thin, and >90% of my small bill goes towards the ingredients, staff and overhead, nad only a small percentage goes to the owner (of which an even smaller slice gets donated by the owner).  There's also the idea of acceptance and tolerance.
Coworkers argues this is quintessential "voting with your wallet" and envisions a management change if enough people boycotted this establishment.

What do you think?  Would you patronize a business who held opposing viewpoints, provided they kept these views to themselves?

ETA: The beliefs and causes supported fall along normal ideology divisions; a particular party, a particular stance on abortion, etc.  We aren't talking about neo-nazis or eco-terrorists, nor are the owners (AFAIK) anything but upstanding, law-abiding citizens.

I think your friend (along with many people across the country), has lost all sense of perspective when it comes to what kind of conformity they expect from other people.  I don't think it's normal or healthy to want agreement on political issues before being willing to interact or do business with somebody, although I'd guess it's becoming much more common.   

 

 

merula

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2018, 11:41:40 AM »
But this begs the question - do business owners have to avoid any political affiliations in their private lives now to avoid these sorts of boycotts?  Regardless of how private and segregated they try to keep it from their businesses?  I feel like in today's day and age its far easier for internet vigilantees to peg down your afilitation and notify everyone of your position.

It has never been possible for a business to be all things to all potential customers. In the specific case of this diner, there are probably people who are patronizing this diner over whatever one your friend preferred because this one shares their views on _____ and the other ones doesn't.

This is probably where the level of odiousness of the belief comes into play. Based on the responses to this thread, it would seem that I'm one of the few that would boycott over a transit dispute. And there are people who are visiting the anti-trains used book store over the pro-trains one precisely because of the transit position, so there's probably minimal impact to the business either way from minor differences of opinion.

But it seems like many of us agree that we would boycott a business that espoused harmful fringe beliefs like neo-nazism. Neo-Nazis have the right to freedom of speech and freedom of belief, the same as anyone else, but no one has a right to freedom from consequences of their speech or beliefs. If a business owner's beliefs are so odious that merely connecting those beliefs with the business is enough to have a significant negative impact on the business, that seems like a natural and fair consequence of that belief.

The alternative would be, people with harmful fringe beliefs get to do as they please because they're fine with being intolerant, while those with mainstream beliefs must treat everyone equally in the name of tolerance. Fair treatment isn't always equal treatment, and equal treatment isn't always fair.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2018, 11:48:56 AM »
My policy is that ignorance is bliss.  Don't push your beliefs on to me, and I won't ask.  We can happily go about our business together.  Push your agenda aggressively at me or others and (if I don't agree with it) I'll find somewhere else to do business.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2018, 12:01:51 PM »
It would take a lot for me to stop patronizing a place based on the owner's beliefs.  There's not a lot of causes I feel all that strongly about.  I'm pretty apolitical, so if we're talking Democrat vs. Republican, I couldn't care less.  And if someone's very religious and it's not my religion or I'm not religious, I couldn't care less about that either.  I don't care what they do or how they do it, as long as they're not hurting someone else or proselytizing to me on a level that annoys me.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2018, 12:02:44 PM »
I live in Iowa. I hold very progressive political views.  It would be impossible for me to not patronize businesses where people have different viewpoints.

But if they are public enough that I know about their viewpoints- well then my money does not go to them.  This goes for both small businesses and national/global ones.  I guess the national/global ones I hold some stock in through index funds...


The one that I am torn on is Chic-fil-A.  The national brand I really don't want to support. Our local owner sponsors free food at Pride every year.

I wouldn't be torn. Either they allow/encourage their freedom to do so, which makes them worth patronizing, or this franchise owner is totally sticking it to the man and I'd want to support him/her.

But the money still goes to the corporation who push a political agenda I want my money in NO way supporting. Because the agendas they push DO hurt people.

bacchi

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2018, 12:10:56 PM »

I think your friend (along with many people across the country), has lost all sense of perspective when it comes to what kind of conformity they expect from other people.  I don't think it's normal or healthy to want agreement on political issues before being willing to interact or do business with somebody, although I'd guess it's becoming much more common.   


It's the beauty of the Free Market. We can choose with whom we do business.

Cassie

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2018, 12:13:11 PM »
If I don’t agree with a large corporation like Hobby Lobby I do stop shopping there. For a small business owner I would only stop patronizing if there position was hateful like the bakery that wouldn’t make cakes for gay couples.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2018, 01:02:45 PM »
I think your friend (along with many people across the country), has lost all sense of perspective when it comes to what kind of conformity they expect from other people.  I don't think it's normal or healthy to want agreement on political issues before being willing to interact or do business with somebody, although I'd guess it's becoming much more common.   

I agree, with the exception of a few outlier positions already stated in this thread there are few political positions that would stop me from patronizing a local business. I am all for boycotting as a form of political expression but it seems that the threshold for a boycott is getting increasingly lower. It's all symptomatic of the idea that people are "monsters" or "hateful" for having a different political viewpoint. It only further contributes to the toxic polarization in our country. Go to the guy's diner who supports ______ and get to know him and just talk to him and recognize that he's a human being and that his political viewpoints make up only a small fraction of his overall character.

That being said, there are certain business whose actions have actual negative consequences (i.e. environmental degradation, poor employment conditions, abusive environment, etc.) that I do try to avoid, but that is more of an ethical boycott rather than a political one.

saguaro

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2018, 01:11:25 PM »
My policy is that ignorance is bliss.  Don't push your beliefs on to me, and I won't ask.  We can happily go about our business together.  Push your agenda aggressively at me or others and (if I don't agree with it) I'll find somewhere else to do business.

This is pretty much how I work.  I don't expect everyone to be on the same page as me in terms of beliefs, I think it's pretty much irrelevant to me in most business situations anyway.  For example, if I want to hire a window contractor to replace my windows, I will be concerned about the ability to do the job and quality of work, not the beliefs.  However, start pushing those beliefs on me and I might just get annoyed enough to go elsewhere.

nereo

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2018, 01:13:13 PM »

It's the beauty of the Free Market. We can choose with whom we do business.
Sure - but when the policies of hte business are segregated from the policies of the owners...?
Also, the free market works great in large markets where there is a lot of choice.  In more sparsely populated areas its less efficient, and consequences can be amplified.
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Jrr85

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2018, 01:24:11 PM »

I think your friend (along with many people across the country), has lost all sense of perspective when it comes to what kind of conformity they expect from other people.  I don't think it's normal or healthy to want agreement on political issues before being willing to interact or do business with somebody, although I'd guess it's becoming much more common.   


It's the beauty of the Free Market. We can choose with whom we do business.

Freedom to choose whom we do business with is certainly a beauty of the free market, but using that freedom to make conformity with most (all?) of a person's political beliefs or support of the same political party a prerequisite to doing business with somebody is not a great application of that freedom.   

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2018, 01:52:14 PM »

I think your friend (along with many people across the country), has lost all sense of perspective when it comes to what kind of conformity they expect from other people.  I don't think it's normal or healthy to want agreement on political issues before being willing to interact or do business with somebody, although I'd guess it's becoming much more common.   


It's the beauty of the Free Market. We can choose with whom we do business.

Freedom to choose whom we do business with is certainly a beauty of the free market, but using that freedom to make conformity with most (all?) of a person's political beliefs or support of the same political party a prerequisite to doing business with somebody is not a great application of that freedom.   

Can you tell us the acceptable times and instances people should be allowed to to freely exercise choice in a free market?

merula

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2018, 02:38:14 PM »
Can you tell us the acceptable times and instances people should be allowed to to freely exercise choice in a free market?


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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2018, 03:08:20 PM »

I think your friend (along with many people across the country), has lost all sense of perspective when it comes to what kind of conformity they expect from other people.  I don't think it's normal or healthy to want agreement on political issues before being willing to interact or do business with somebody, although I'd guess it's becoming much more common.   


It's the beauty of the Free Market. We can choose with whom we do business.

Freedom to choose whom we do business with is certainly a beauty of the free market, but using that freedom to make conformity with most (all?) of a person's political beliefs or support of the same political party a prerequisite to doing business with somebody is not a great application of that freedom.   

True. There's a bell curve of "acceptable"* beliefs out there. The owner thinks the inheritance tax exclusion should go up to $22 million? Stupid but not a deal breaker. She's all for school vouchers? Short-sighted but not a deal breaker.

The owner makes comments about "Planet of the Apes" children? Yeah, not gonna shop there any more.




* which has sadly been widened recently for some segments of society

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2018, 03:13:24 PM »

I think your friend (along with many people across the country), has lost all sense of perspective when it comes to what kind of conformity they expect from other people.  I don't think it's normal or healthy to want agreement on political issues before being willing to interact or do business with somebody, although I'd guess it's becoming much more common.   


It's the beauty of the Free Market. We can choose with whom we do business.

Freedom to choose whom we do business with is certainly a beauty of the free market, but using that freedom to make conformity with most (all?) of a person's political beliefs or support of the same political party a prerequisite to doing business with somebody is not a great application of that freedom.   

Can you tell us the acceptable times and instances people should be allowed to to freely exercise choice in a free market?

I don't believe Jrr85 said what you think he said. You should always be allowed to exercise free choice but some applications are not very wise applications.

Diversity is good. So you if only do business with people who conform to your politics you are eschewing diversity and you would be worse off for it in the long run. We are all free to make that mistake though.

That is how I understood his comment.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2018, 04:22:04 PM »
There are big corporates I avoid because I believe that they cause harm through their policies. For small businesses, if they are causing harm then I'm going to avoid shopping there.

I don't have to agree with someone else. As long as they're not causing harm to others (they're welcome to harm themselves, that's their own problem), I try to live and let live.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2018, 04:34:39 PM »
True. There's a bell curve of "acceptable"* beliefs out there. The owner thinks the inheritance tax exclusion should go up to $22 million? Stupid but not a deal breaker. She's all for school vouchers? Short-sighted but not a deal breaker.

The owner makes comments about "Planet of the Apes" children? Yeah, not gonna shop there any more.

* which has sadly been widened recently for some segments of society
I would probably not know what an owner says unless it's plastered on the wall of their store or they are literally in their store while I am a patron and they tell me.

To be fair, I'm on a pretty low information diet.  I don't know exactly what Hobby Lobby did (remember hearing something about it but didn't care to investigate), but if it was terrible enough then I assume people wouldn't work there or whatever policy they enacted would be deemed illegal.  As long as I can go in that store and shop for something that meets at a reasonable intersection of quality and price and I don't know anything about the owner's/corporate stance, it is usually okay.  If some "evil" store owner is donating all of this profit money to a bad cause, then couldn't someone else deliver the goods or services cheaper or with better quality for same price minus anything political?

I'd say I'm slightly more tolerant than that as I don't care that Chick Fil A is closed on Sundays (other than the time or two I've thought about getting it on a Sunday and then was annoyed subsequently).  I'm not religious and I think it's silly to miss out on revenue from a business perspective - but if the owner wants it that way for whatever reason(s) that I assume has/have something to do with religion and I don't get preached to when I go in the store, I'm okay with it.  I don't think of it as supporting the owner's religion.  I think of it as I wanted an adequately priced and solid-tasting chicken sandwich with usually above average customer service and nothing more.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2018, 04:41:19 PM »

I think your friend (along with many people across the country), has lost all sense of perspective when it comes to what kind of conformity they expect from other people.  I don't think it's normal or healthy to want agreement on political issues before being willing to interact or do business with somebody, although I'd guess it's becoming much more common.   


It's the beauty of the Free Market. We can choose with whom we do business.

Freedom to choose whom we do business with is certainly a beauty of the free market, but using that freedom to make conformity with most (all?) of a person's political beliefs or support of the same political party a prerequisite to doing business with somebody is not a great application of that freedom.   

Can you tell us the acceptable times and instances people should be allowed to to freely exercise choice in a free market?

In a free market?  More or less at all times and instances although there are probably some exceptions that somebody could come up with if they spent some time thinking on it.   

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2018, 04:49:43 PM »

I think your friend (along with many people across the country), has lost all sense of perspective when it comes to what kind of conformity they expect from other people.  I don't think it's normal or healthy to want agreement on political issues before being willing to interact or do business with somebody, although I'd guess it's becoming much more common.   


It's the beauty of the Free Market. We can choose with whom we do business.

Freedom to choose whom we do business with is certainly a beauty of the free market, but using that freedom to make conformity with most (all?) of a person's political beliefs or support of the same political party a prerequisite to doing business with somebody is not a great application of that freedom.   

Can you tell us the acceptable times and instances people should be allowed to to freely exercise choice in a free market?

I don't believe Jrr85 said what you think he said. You should always be allowed to exercise free choice but some applications are not very wise applications.

Diversity is good. So you if only do business with people who conform to your politics you are eschewing diversity and you would be worse off for it in the long run. We are all free to make that mistake though.

That is how I understood his comment.

When diversity is donating millions of dollars to campaigns and lobbies to pass legislation to infringe upon my and others rights, how could I be expected to view that as good? And why would I want my money supporting it?

I don't care if a business is closed on Saturday or Sunday or any other day. I care what owners do with their profits and make public they are doing that.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2018, 04:52:41 PM »
True. There's a bell curve of "acceptable"* beliefs out there. The owner thinks the inheritance tax exclusion should go up to $22 million? Stupid but not a deal breaker. She's all for school vouchers? Short-sighted but not a deal breaker.

The owner makes comments about "Planet of the Apes" children? Yeah, not gonna shop there any more.

* which has sadly been widened recently for some segments of society
I would probably not know what an owner says unless it's plastered on the wall of their store or they are literally in their store while I am a patron and they tell me.

In small towns, you'd know the owner and what the owner thinks.

Quote
To be fair, I'm on a pretty low information diet.  I don't know exactly what Hobby Lobby did (remember hearing something about it but didn't care to investigate), but if it was terrible enough then I assume people wouldn't work there or whatever policy they enacted would be deemed illegal.  As long as I can go in that store and shop for something that meets at a reasonable intersection of quality and price and I don't know anything about the owner's/corporate stance, it is usually okay.  If some "evil" store owner is donating all of this profit money to a bad cause, then couldn't someone else deliver the goods or services cheaper or with better quality for same price minus anything political?

1) Some of what Hobby Lobby did that was connected to their religious fervor was declared illegal (stealing religious artifacts).
2) There are indeed competitors to Hobby Lobby.

Quote
I'd say I'm slightly more tolerant than that as I don't care that Chick Fil A is closed on Sundays (other than the time or two I've thought about getting it on a Sunday and then was annoyed subsequently).  I'm not religious and I think it's silly to miss out on revenue from a business perspective - but if the owner wants it that way for whatever reason(s) that I assume has/have something to do with religion and I don't get preached to when I go in the store, I'm okay with it.  I don't think of it as supporting the owner's religion.  I think of it as I wanted an adequately priced and solid-tasting chicken sandwich with usually above average customer service and nothing more.

It was never about Sunday. It was about comments made by the COO and tens of millions going to anti-homosexual causes, including conversion therapy groups.

The company stopped donating to such causes shortly after the controversy.*



* Negative attention and boycotting worked.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2018, 05:33:14 PM »
I would be more inclined to avoid patronizing a business that contributed to views I disagreed with than a business owned by someone who contributed to views I disagreed with. There is a subtle distinction here; but I think it is important. Of course I'd also be considering the level and type of support and how strongly I felt about the issue. I'd have a lot of difficulty finding the diner described as less desirable than corporate chain stores; but I might change my mind if I knew the owner wrote off contributions that I disagreed with as a business expense.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2018, 08:42:49 PM »
I would generally separate my dinners out from my political beliefs.  I figure that I'm going to disagree with about everyone on some issue, and I want to enjoy a meal out without the spoils of politics.  It would have to be pretty extreme for me to stop patronizing the business, and I can't see some political contributions reaching that threshold.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2018, 07:19:02 AM »
In general, if I boycott a business, it's because of their business practices. Walmart doesn't pay or treat its employees well; Winco does. Ergo, I do my grocery shopping at Winco. I have no illusions that Walmart will go out of business because they're missing out on my my measly $40-60/week, but the food goes down better.

So far, places like Hobby Lobby and Chick-Fil-A that might have provoked my ire in the form of a boycott have been places I didn't shop anyway.
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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2018, 07:41:51 AM »

I think your friend (along with many people across the country), has lost all sense of perspective when it comes to what kind of conformity they expect from other people.  I don't think it's normal or healthy to want agreement on political issues before being willing to interact or do business with somebody, although I'd guess it's becoming much more common.   


It's the beauty of the Free Market. We can choose with whom we do business.

Freedom to choose whom we do business with is certainly a beauty of the free market, but using that freedom to make conformity with most (all?) of a person's political beliefs or support of the same political party a prerequisite to doing business with somebody is not a great application of that freedom.   

Can you tell us the acceptable times and instances people should be allowed to to freely exercise choice in a free market?

In a free market?  More or less at all times and instances although there are probably some exceptions that somebody could come up with if they spent some time thinking on it.

:P

Just busting your balls.  Upon first reading it seemed like you were arguing that people shouldn't exercise their freedom of choice whenever they want to, for whatever reason they want to.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2018, 08:50:08 AM »
I do consider the apparent beliefs of a business, but never political, and never religion.  However if that religion, in their minds, gives them the right to do something I feel is worthy of me not giving them my money, I don't. Small difference, but a difference.

There have been 2 instances that a Denny's restaurant shows obvious racism, one 25 years ago, one 10 years ago, in different states. No Denny's again.

There are states that I avoid dealing with the businesses n that state, and have a list of them on this computer. One is Michigan because I have been following the Flint water crisis, and one is Wisconsin and their anti-union policies. However I did buy a washer and dryer from Speed Queen, made in Wisconsin, by a union company.
There are more states on the list, those are the ones I remember right now.

I have s longer list of companies I Do patronize because of their policies that I agree with. Many times it's places that can state that their item is all US made. The last one being Cambria quartz for our kitchen.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2018, 08:55:11 AM »
In general, if I boycott a business, it's because of their business practices. Walmart doesn't pay or treat its employees well; Winco does. Ergo, I do my grocery shopping at Winco. I have no illusions that Walmart will go out of business because they're missing out on my my measly $40-60/week, but the food goes down better.

So I totally hear you on this and I have reservations about Walmart myself, but are you familiar with the "sweatshop paradox" that economists  talk about? Basically, the problem with sweatshops is that there's not enough of them. We Westerners are (rightly) appalled at the conditions of sweatshops and we think we're doing the right thing by avoiding companies that use sweatshop labor -- except that sweatshops in places like South America and Southeast Asia are often some of the best jobs available in those communities and pay far more than the average annual salary. It's a tragic irony, but we actually do more harm than good when we avoid using sweatshop labor.

Anyway I only bring this up because while Walmart is certainly not a sweatshop, I think you can make a similar argument. Many of the people Walmart employs would not be able to find a job elsewhere. Could Walmart improve its wages and pay its employees more? Absolutely. But they would also understandably raise their hiring standards, which would hurt many of the poor, unskilled employees they currently employ.

Just food for thought. I have no intention of telling you where you should shop and of course negative pressure and boycotting can be an effective tool. I just find it an interesting topic to think about.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2018, 09:21:12 AM »
In general, if I boycott a business, it's because of their business practices. Walmart doesn't pay or treat its employees well; Winco does. Ergo, I do my grocery shopping at Winco. I have no illusions that Walmart will go out of business because they're missing out on my my measly $40-60/week, but the food goes down better.

So I totally hear you on this and I have reservations about Walmart myself, but are you familiar with the "sweatshop paradox" that economists  talk about? Basically, the problem with sweatshops is that there's not enough of them. We Westerners are (rightly) appalled at the conditions of sweatshops and we think we're doing the right thing by avoiding companies that use sweatshop labor -- except that sweatshops in places like South America and Southeast Asia are often some of the best jobs available in those communities and pay far more than the average annual salary. It's a tragic irony, but we actually do more harm than good when we avoid using sweatshop labor.

Anyway I only bring this up because while Walmart is certainly not a sweatshop, I think you can make a similar argument. Many of the people Walmart employs would not be able to find a job elsewhere. Could Walmart improve its wages and pay its employees more? Absolutely. But they would also understandably raise their hiring standards, which would hurt many of the poor, unskilled employees they currently employ.

Just food for thought. I have no intention of telling you where you should shop and of course negative pressure and boycotting can be an effective tool. I just find it an interesting topic to think about.

That's the point of moving your money. If the target audience is shopping elsewhere because Wal-Mart is deemed to be unenvironmental and anti-employee, Wal-Mart may see the light and pay a living wage, if only to keep their good employees. This is why Wal-Mart makes such a big to-do about their solar power usage: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/10/21/walmart_green_energy_it_can_produce_more_solar_power_than_35_states.html. It's not about doing the Right Thing (though there may be some eco employees with clout at Wal-Mart); it's about appealing to a certain demographic.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/walmarts-appeal-is-gaining-among-democrats/

Quote
Walmart has also increased its workers' pay and spoken out against anti-gay laws, leading the LGBT magazine The Advocate to remark on Walmart's "transformation into an LGBT ally."


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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2018, 10:47:27 AM »
To be fair, I'm on a pretty low information diet.  I don't know exactly what Hobby Lobby did (remember hearing something about it but didn't care to investigate), but if it was terrible enough then I assume people wouldn't work there or whatever policy they enacted would be deemed illegal.  As long as I can go in that store and shop for something that meets at a reasonable intersection of quality and price and I don't know anything about the owner's/corporate stance, it is usually okay.  If some "evil" store owner is donating all of this profit money to a bad cause, then couldn't someone else deliver the goods or services cheaper or with better quality for same price minus anything political?

1) Some of what Hobby Lobby did that was connected to their religious fervor was declared illegal (stealing religious artifacts).
2) There are indeed competitors to Hobby Lobby.

Quote
I'd say I'm slightly more tolerant than that as I don't care that Chick Fil A is closed on Sundays (other than the time or two I've thought about getting it on a Sunday and then was annoyed subsequently).  I'm not religious and I think it's silly to miss out on revenue from a business perspective - but if the owner wants it that way for whatever reason(s) that I assume has/have something to do with religion and I don't get preached to when I go in the store, I'm okay with it.  I don't think of it as supporting the owner's religion.  I think of it as I wanted an adequately priced and solid-tasting chicken sandwich with usually above average customer service and nothing more.

It was never about Sunday. It was about comments made by the COO and tens of millions going to anti-homosexual causes, including conversion therapy groups.

The company stopped donating to such causes shortly after the controversy.*

* Negative attention and boycotting worked.
Okay, so the system seems to sort itself out in many cases be it by the law or by enough people with an opinion/action.  The illegal stuff Hobby Lobby was doing stopped and the opinions/actions of enough changed what Chick Fil A did.  With regard to the former situation, I am glad the US has a strong rule of law.  With regard to the latter situation, this is great for those that care.  I usually do not aside from thinking lobbying power is too strong with regard to lawmakers.  However, I think it's a totally valid opinion if you do care about a particular business-related issue and have respect for those that make differences and are proactive.

Last weekend I needed to purchase some cheap plain blue bandanas to be screen printed later this summer for a float trip (yay summer!).  I searched online and Hobby Lobby came up as the best option after a cursory search.  Without any political qualms, I went to the store and bought them.  It took about 5 minutes inside the store and I wasn't hassled with any propaganda or anything that would lead me to believe the store has a political mission.  Good enough for me, successful transaction!  I'm not pro-Hobby Lobby or anti-, they had the best price.  If some other store did or was available cheaper online, I would've gone that route instead.

As for CFA, I wasn't talking about what you are referring to (but wow! tens of millions?  What a colossal waste but that's their issue or was at least).  I know people who boycott CFA simply because they are closed on Sundays.  They don't want to patronize a place that (they feel) makes a religious gesture by observing the Sabbath.  They don't have to read where profits go or what executives say, to them it's much more direct that there is a store policy.  I.e. you wouldn't hear anything about conversion therapy from an employee or see advertisements when visiting a store (meaning you would have to research or pay attention to news) whereas the family/church/"good people" atmosphere is fairly omnipresent in every store.

For those of you who do not patronize businesses for certain reasons, and you WOULD if those reasons did not exist, does this play into the way you invest in your retirement?  Do you carefully pick and choose which companies to own?  It would seem like a lot of work if the ethical/political positions of a business will influence your opinion to own it.  Again, I respect that if you do, it's just interesting.  I know Norway's sovereign "Oil Fund" excludes some very big players (Altria, Boeing, Wal-Mart, etc.) in its holdings for ethical reasons and they seem to be doing just fine.

I'm not trying to be overly insensitive if I come off that way.  I want to live in a country/world where everyone has access to the basics and prejudice/discrimination do not hold sway.  I just separate business and politics for the most part.  I vote with my dollars, sure but I also vote on ballots for candidates that align with how I view things.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2018, 11:13:05 AM »


As for CFA, I wasn't talking about what you are referring to (but wow! tens of millions?  What a colossal waste but that's their issue or was at least). I know people who boycott CFA simply because they are closed on Sundays.  They don't want to patronize a place that (they feel) makes a religious gesture by observing the Sabbath. They don't have to read where profits go or what executives say, to them it's much more direct that there is a store policy.  I.e. you wouldn't hear anything about conversion therapy from an employee or see advertisements when visiting a store (meaning you would have to research or pay attention to news) whereas the family/church/"good people" atmosphere is fairly omnipresent in every store.

For those of you who do not patronize businesses for certain reasons, and you WOULD if those reasons did not exist, does this play into the way you invest in your retirement?  Do you carefully pick and choose which companies to own?  It would seem like a lot of work if the ethical/political positions of a business will influence your opinion to own it.  Again, I respect that if you do, it's just interesting.  I know Norway's sovereign "Oil Fund" excludes some very big players (Altria, Boeing, Wal-Mart, etc.) in its holdings for ethical reasons and they seem to be doing just fine.


Personally, I'm more likely to patronize a business that closes on Sunday. Not because I'm religious, but I personally just think the 24/7 business model is unhealthy for people and society. Plan ahead and take a break! I don't do a great job of it, but I also try not patronize stores that force their employees to work on Thanksgiving/Christmas, etc.

Also just saw this on another thread, pertaining to the Norwegian sovereign fund.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-04/how-not-to-run-a-sovereign-wealth-fund


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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2018, 11:42:42 AM »
I'm not going to wade through the comments already made, and I'm sure a lot of interesting points have been made across the spectrum.

I'm going to approach things a bit differently through example by addressing the communications guide, and part of the reason why I stopped.

None of us live in a vacuum, yet personal responsibility has to stop and end somewhere. Also, values practiced should mean far more than the words used. Virtue signaling is worthless unless you walk the walk that you talk, otherwise it's just hypocritical, arrogant, self-righteous judgment. I slipped into that mess myself, even if I started with the purest of intentions. Never again, HaShem willing. We also need to be more forgiving of people who have different perspectives from our own.

So long as they themselves are not actively participating in seriously harmful practices that deliberately hurt others (deeds of the flesh sort of thing, assuming they claim an ethos)? Forgive them for they may not know what they do. If you feel moved to address it, avoid doing so founded on gossip and hearsay. Only bring it up, privately, gently and in love, if they tell you themselves first... and only when you are no longer guilty of some variant of the same behavior yourself. If you can't do it respectfully in love, it's just factious back-biting. We have enough of that in the world already.

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't be an informed patron, nor does it mean you should neglect your own values in your money spent... just as much as your words spoken, and most importantly your actions. Look first at the values practiced and evident in the community, though... not who they supposedly give their money to according to some guy who knows some guy who sees the guy writing the checks.

Going back, though... we don't live in a vacuum. Start by looking at who's names and pictures are on our money, and acknowledge that it's not our own in the first place. If we boycotted everyone who spent the money we spend on stuff we disagreed with in secret, we'd have to live in a cave off of dust and ashes. Heck, most people's investment funds would vanish overnight. Eye for an eye only leaves the world blind, especially when we're just as guilty. Doesn't mean we shouldn't aim and live a higher standard, but do so mindfully and in kind gentleness. Yeshua said it Himself - it's the meek who inherit the earth, not the self-righteous materialist gossips.

Once again, Biblical wisdom has its uses in practical ways.

A pretty low bar has been set for standards in social justice, Nereo, and it's mostly hot air. Let me encourage you (and others) in love to do better, just as much as I want you to encourage me to do likewise.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2018, 11:50:27 AM »
I think your coworker is technically correct: these business owners are only able to donate to _____ because they operate a business successfully. So every time you spend money at their business, some amount goes to ______. But, to your point, some amount also goes to supporting your community by employing local teenagers and nearby farms.



 I wonder how people would feel if taken to the extreme.  We might say, we dont want to give them our money because they donate to X or Y.  But if enough people do that, eventually we'll get to the point where by not supporting them, they may not earn enough to keep the business running and lose their livelihood.  We can't tell people how to spend their money, but at some point we either give them money (in exchange for the good or service we are purchasing) or we don't.  Do you feel comfortable saying, I don't like your politics so I don't think you should be able to make a living in a public facing business?

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2018, 12:26:19 PM »
As for CFA, I wasn't talking about what you are referring to (but wow! tens of millions?  What a colossal waste but that's their issue or was at least).  I know people who boycott CFA simply because they are closed on Sundays.  They don't want to patronize a place that (they feel) makes a religious gesture by observing the Sabbath.  They don't have to read where profits go or what executives say, to them it's much more direct that there is a store policy.  I.e. you wouldn't hear anything about conversion therapy from an employee or see advertisements when visiting a store (meaning you would have to research or pay attention to news) whereas the family/church/"good people" atmosphere is fairly omnipresent in every store.

Ah, ok, I've never experienced that kind of attitude. I knew co-workers who stated, "Well, they're anti-gay, which is wrong, but wow! what a yummy sandwich! Let's go!" I suppose the more ardent atheists would boycott such a store but I don't know any anymore.

merula

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2018, 03:03:12 PM »
I think your coworker is technically correct: these business owners are only able to donate to _____ because they operate a business successfully. So every time you spend money at their business, some amount goes to ______. But, to your point, some amount also goes to supporting your community by employing local teenagers and nearby farms.



 I wonder how people would feel if taken to the extreme.  We might say, we dont want to give them our money because they donate to X or Y.  But if enough people do that, eventually we'll get to the point where by not supporting them, they may not earn enough to keep the business running and lose their livelihood.  We can't tell people how to spend their money, but at some point we either give them money (in exchange for the good or service we are purchasing) or we don't.  Do you feel comfortable saying, I don't like your politics so I don't think you should be able to make a living in a public facing business?

I'm comfortable with saying "I don't agree with your views and I don't want to monetarily support them, even indirectly." I am also comfortable saying "I agree with your views and I want to support them, so I will do more business with you."

And I am comfortable saying both of those things with the understanding that t there will never be anyone with whom I am in complete agreement on every issue. I am making a judgment call at some level that the views in question are important enough to me to act on them.

Me saying either of those things doesn't deprive anyone of a living, nor ensure anyone a living. I don't spend nearly enough anywhere to make that possible.

In order for someone to be deprived of a living, a lot of people need to (1) think that it's appropriate to make consumer decisions based on political/moral issues (which we are seeing in this thread is a matter of significant debate), (2) disagree with the business owner's views, and (3) think those views are important enough act on.

That is a very high bar. In practice, it's only going to happen for things that are well outside mainstream and are viewed as harmful by the mainstream.

I think that there should be a law that Caesar dressing must contain anchovies and any dressing that purports to have the same character without anchovies must be labeled as "imitation Caesar dressing product"; this is well outside the mainstream but hardly considered harmful and I would be surprised if someone felt strongly enough about imitation Caesar dressing product to boycott me over it. On the other hand, people feel very strongly about abortion, but for every person who boycotts a business because they take a different view, there's a person who chooses to give that business more business because they agree with the view.

So, am I comfortable with the idea that those with harmful fringe beliefs who make those beliefs known may lose their ability to make a living in a public-facing business? Yes, absolutely. Everyone has the freedom of speech and belief, but no one has freedom from the consequences of their speech and belief.

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2018, 04:05:05 PM »
I think your coworker is technically correct: these business owners are only able to donate to _____ because they operate a business successfully. So every time you spend money at their business, some amount goes to ______. But, to your point, some amount also goes to supporting your community by employing local teenagers and nearby farms.



 I wonder how people would feel if taken to the extreme.  We might say, we dont want to give them our money because they donate to X or Y.  But if enough people do that, eventually we'll get to the point where by not supporting them, they may not earn enough to keep the business running and lose their livelihood.  We can't tell people how to spend their money, but at some point we either give them money (in exchange for the good or service we are purchasing) or we don't.  Do you feel comfortable saying, I don't like your politics so I don't think you should be able to make a living in a public facing business?

I'm comfortable with saying "I don't agree with your views and I don't want to monetarily support them, even indirectly." I am also comfortable saying "I agree with your views and I want to support them, so I will do more business with you."

And I am comfortable saying both of those things with the understanding that t there will never be anyone with whom I am in complete agreement on every issue. I am making a judgment call at some level that the views in question are important enough to me to act on them.

Me saying either of those things doesn't deprive anyone of a living, nor ensure anyone a living. I don't spend nearly enough anywhere to make that possible.

In order for someone to be deprived of a living, a lot of people need to (1) think that it's appropriate to make consumer decisions based on political/moral issues (which we are seeing in this thread is a matter of significant debate), (2) disagree with the business owner's views, and (3) think those views are important enough act on.

That is a very high bar. In practice, it's only going to happen for things that are well outside mainstream and are viewed as harmful by the mainstream.

I think that there should be a law that Caesar dressing must contain anchovies and any dressing that purports to have the same character without anchovies must be labeled as "imitation Caesar dressing product"; this is well outside the mainstream but hardly considered harmful and I would be surprised if someone felt strongly enough about imitation Caesar dressing product to boycott me over it. On the other hand, people feel very strongly about abortion, but for every person who boycotts a business because they take a different view, there's a person who chooses to give that business more business because they agree with the view.

So, am I comfortable with the idea that those with harmful fringe beliefs who make those beliefs known may lose their ability to make a living in a public-facing business? Yes, absolutely. Everyone has the freedom of speech and belief, but no one has freedom from the consequences of their speech and belief.


sure, I agree with you that it's unlikely to happen that way, just more of a thought experiment.  However, on the flip side, I live in a very liberal part of California and being a vocal Trump supporter would be considered an extreme view here that many people would not like to support.  I could imagine if a local coffee shop or small business put up a Trump sign (especially one that espoused some anti-progressive views and not just support of the president), they would probably go out of business due to people boycotting (since margins are small for these sorts of businesses and a drop of 20-30% would probably be fatal to most businesses).

GuitarStv

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Re: patronizing businesses who's owners hold different beliefs
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2018, 10:14:17 AM »
I think your coworker is technically correct: these business owners are only able to donate to _____ because they operate a business successfully. So every time you spend money at their business, some amount goes to ______. But, to your point, some amount also goes to supporting your community by employing local teenagers and nearby farms.



 I wonder how people would feel if taken to the extreme.  We might say, we dont want to give them our money because they donate to X or Y.  But if enough people do that, eventually we'll get to the point where by not supporting them, they may not earn enough to keep the business running and lose their livelihood.  We can't tell people how to spend their money, but at some point we either give them money (in exchange for the good or service we are purchasing) or we don't.  Do you feel comfortable saying, I don't like your politics so I don't think you should be able to make a living in a public facing business?

I'm comfortable with saying "I don't agree with your views and I don't want to monetarily support them, even indirectly." I am also comfortable saying "I agree with your views and I want to support them, so I will do more business with you."

And I am comfortable saying both of those things with the understanding that t there will never be anyone with whom I am in complete agreement on every issue. I am making a judgment call at some level that the views in question are important enough to me to act on them.

Me saying either of those things doesn't deprive anyone of a living, nor ensure anyone a living. I don't spend nearly enough anywhere to make that possible.

In order for someone to be deprived of a living, a lot of people need to (1) think that it's appropriate to make consumer decisions based on political/moral issues (which we are seeing in this thread is a matter of significant debate), (2) disagree with the business owner's views, and (3) think those views are important enough act on.

That is a very high bar. In practice, it's only going to happen for things that are well outside mainstream and are viewed as harmful by the mainstream.

I think that there should be a law that Caesar dressing must contain anchovies and any dressing that purports to have the same character without anchovies must be labeled as "imitation Caesar dressing product"; this is well outside the mainstream but hardly considered harmful and I would be surprised if someone felt strongly enough about imitation Caesar dressing product to boycott me over it. On the other hand, people feel very strongly about abortion, but for every person who boycotts a business because they take a different view, there's a person who chooses to give that business more business because they agree with the view.

So, am I comfortable with the idea that those with harmful fringe beliefs who make those beliefs known may lose their ability to make a living in a public-facing business? Yes, absolutely. Everyone has the freedom of speech and belief, but no one has freedom from the consequences of their speech and belief.


sure, I agree with you that it's unlikely to happen that way, just more of a thought experiment.  However, on the flip side, I live in a very liberal part of California and being a vocal Trump supporter would be considered an extreme view here that many people would not like to support.  I could imagine if a local coffee shop or small business put up a Trump sign (especially one that espoused some anti-progressive views and not just support of the president), they would probably go out of business due to people boycotting (since margins are small for these sorts of businesses and a drop of 20-30% would probably be fatal to most businesses).

I likewise wouldn't expect a gun shop owner in the deep south to do much business with a 'VOTE FOR HILARY - ABORTIONS FOR ALL - GAY BLACK ATHEISTS UNITE' sign on his door.

When you're selling something, you're attempting to entice a customer to buy from you.  If you have particularly unpopular views, it's probably best not to associate them with your shop.  You're free to hold any view you want of course, but people are free to take their business elsewhere if it bothers them.  That's generally a good thing.