Author Topic: OT: Judging Others  (Read 65112 times)

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #150 on: April 11, 2014, 11:18:31 PM »
Yikes, I still don't like it when racist is thrown around haphazardly, but frankly fixer-upper you've done precious little to dispel the notion. And by that I mean when discussing blacks you have almost unfailingly described the worst elements of black culture and applying that to all blacks.

I haven't touched on the worst aspects of black culture.  Google "polar bear game" for some examples of real racism.

You didn't address the racist part: your applying these things to all black people.

Also the first page of Google doesn't seem to have it.

It did have a fun dice game.

EDIT: I seem to have found it, maybe?  There are very few references to it.  How often do you think it happens?  Do you think attacking people is limited to that race?  Or are there thugs in every skin color?
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fixer-upper

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #151 on: April 12, 2014, 12:00:52 AM »
Yikes, I still don't like it when racist is thrown around haphazardly, but frankly fixer-upper you've done precious little to dispel the notion. And by that I mean when discussing blacks you have almost unfailingly described the worst elements of black culture and applying that to all blacks.

I haven't touched on the worst aspects of black culture.  Google "polar bear game" for some examples of real racism.

You didn't address the racist part: your applying these things to all black people.

Also the first page of Google doesn't seem to have it.

It did have a fun dice game.

EDIT: I seem to have found it, maybe?  There are very few references to it.  How often do you think it happens?  Do you think attacking people is limited to that race?  Or are there thugs in every skin color?

My mistake, I should have said "polar bear hunting", which is the act of trying to knock out an unsuspecting white person (especially Jews) with one blow.

The rest of your race-baiting isn't worth a reply.

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #152 on: April 12, 2014, 12:06:56 AM »
I had to google "race baiting."  Not sure how it applies.  My questions are from genuine curiosity.  I find your viewpoint odd.  I'm quite sheltered lucky, and never had a conversation with someone who openly disparages certain races (other than general grumblings from older folks about "mexicans taking our jobs").

I haven't spent much time in the deep south though, I understand it's pretty common, but growing up on the West Coast (Seattle, California, Vegas) the concept is so foreign to me for someone to hold these views in the modern day, so I'm curious about the questions I wrote.  Do you view their race as doing that more than other races?  Do you think it's a frequent occurrence?

/shrug

Weird.
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fixer-upper

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #153 on: April 12, 2014, 12:33:39 AM »
I had to google "race baiting."  Not sure how it applies.  My questions are from genuine curiosity.

You're amusingly full of shit.  Nice try, though.


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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #154 on: April 12, 2014, 12:41:31 AM »
I had to google "race baiting."  Not sure how it applies.  My questions are from genuine curiosity.

You're amusingly full of shit.  Nice try, though.

fixer-upper, at first it seemed you had some narrowly constructed objections to reverse discrimination.  I kinda gave you credit for holding to a non-politically-correct opinion in those areas, and not sinking to the ad hominem level.  Some of your latest posts, however, seem much more broadly disparaging and less on point.  Just an observation - do with it what you will.


arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #155 on: April 12, 2014, 12:42:22 AM »
I had to google "race baiting."  Not sure how it applies.  My questions are from genuine curiosity.

You're amusingly full of shit.  Nice try, though.

Alright, well, I guess it's not worth engaging with you.  A pity.  Take care.
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arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #156 on: April 12, 2014, 12:47:21 AM »
at first it seemed you had some narrowly constructed objections to reverse discrimination.

Indeed.  I've heard some good arguments against affirmative action.  At times in the past I have been for it, and at times I have been against it.  My feelings on affirmative action are mixed.

One problem though is that it's just a band aid solution to problems that start at a much younger age.  Social issues need fixing, rather than just using affirmative action when one gets college-aged, or when applying for certain jobs.
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fixer-upper

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #157 on: April 12, 2014, 03:36:24 AM »
fixer-upper, at first it seemed you had some narrowly constructed objections to reverse discrimination.  I kinda gave you credit for holding to a non-politically-correct opinion in those areas, and not sinking to the ad hominem level.  Some of your latest posts, however, seem much more broadly disparaging and less on point.  Just an observation - do with it what you will.

At first, I held myself above comments such as this one:
haha what?

EDIT: Everyone else, don't misconstrue my laugh and short reply to think that I don't realize this is one of the stupidest things ever written.
When the OP ignored my answers to how women and black people have an economic advantage over men and white people, and instead focused on what I considered to be race baiting, I sank to his level.  Consider me selfish, but it felt good. 

If posters here are too busy looking for racism to see that I'm promoting true equality, why should I bother playing nice with them?  If they want to spend an hour nitpicking the verbiage of black people versus black culture, I'd recommend a technical writing forum, or perhaps the same medication they take to cut down on the 47x a day hand-washing.

To settle your debate, I'm an insensitive jerk, but not a racist.  Racists think one group is superior to another, but I think all groups suck equally.  They do it in different ways, but they all suck.  A person may be rational or irrational, while groups of people almost always behave irrationally.  A person I can either like or dislike, but people annoy the hell out of me.  Simple enough?

Many have pointed out that black women don't always get the same opportunities as white men, and I agree that isn't right.  Giving them preferential treatment isn't right either.  Forcing white boys to pay more tuition as a way to subsidize black girl scholarships is not only a case of punishing the child for sins of the father, but also justifying the concept of two wrongs making a right.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 03:41:17 AM by fixer-upper »

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #158 on: April 12, 2014, 09:37:20 AM »
The problem is your conclusions are wrong.

You say AA offers an advantage.  We agree on that.

You then draw the conclusion that this makes them economically advantaged overall. We disagree on that.

If I take a baby and cut off its legs, then later in life when its training for the olympics spend one extra minute per day coaching it, I could claim that one extra minute a day over its counterparts is an advantage.  That's true.  Does it make them advantaged over the one not handicapped from birth?  Hell no.

You say a black woman is "economically advantaged" over a white male.  This is simply not true.  Affirmative action is not as widespread as you seem to think, and it clearly doesn't make them advantaged overall, as the data bears out.

I'm repeating myself though, as you seem not interested in addressing actual arguments, and just ignored this whole previous post where I already said as much:
As for the "advantage of black women over white men", its codified into law.  As admirable as the intentions of the laws may be, I haven't seen proof of it correcting the economic disparity (rather, the opposite). 

If it's not correcting the economic disparity (indeed, if it's making it worse, like you claim), then they don't have an economic advantage.

A (potentially failed) attempt to correct disparity via legislation does not make an advantage codified into law.  It makes a difference codified into law.  That difference may or may not lead to an advantage (or merely narrow the gap).

You claim that a black woman is economically advantaged over a white man.  That's simply not true, regardless of what affirmative action laws exist.  They are still at an economic disadvantage, which you implicitly admit by mentioning the economic disparity in the quote above.

I still consider your comment* one of the stupidest things I've ever read, and you'd done literally nothing so far to defend it or make me reconsider, as you haven't adequately addressed any of the comments about it.

*Note that your comment is different from you as a person.
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arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #159 on: April 12, 2014, 09:39:39 AM »
Many have pointed out that black women don't always get the same opportunities as white men, and I agree that isn't right.  Giving them preferential treatment isn't right either.  Forcing white boys to pay more tuition as a way to subsidize black girl scholarships is not only a case of punishing the child for sins of the father, but also justifying the concept of two wrongs making a right.

I agree with all of this.  I still don't see how you can stand by your comment of them being economically advantaged.

They have an economic advantage, but so do white people (a much bigger one and many more of them), they are not economically advantaged.

Affirmative action is an attempt to address the inequality.  How would you address it?
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Luck better Skill

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #160 on: April 13, 2014, 07:41:28 AM »
I had to google "race baiting."  Not sure how it applies.  My questions are from genuine curiosity.  I find your viewpoint odd.  I'm quite sheltered lucky, and never had a conversation with someone who openly disparages certain races (other than general grumblings from older folks about "mexicans taking our jobs").

I haven't spent much time in the deep south though, I understand it's pretty common, but growing up on the West Coast (Seattle, California, Vegas) the concept is so foreign to me for someone to hold these views in the modern day, so I'm curious about the questions I wrote.  Do you view their race as doing that more than other races?  Do you think it's a frequent occurrence?

/shrug

Weird.

Underline part is what I am replying too. 

  Having grow up in Virginia and had grandparents in Illinois I can say racism is not anymore common in one state over the other.  Fifty plus years ago racism was in the south.  Sure there are some racist out there who make big headlines, but it is not mainstream nor socially acceptable.  Current example is when the Redskins moved the training camp to Richmond, scores of people lined up to meet RG3.
 

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #161 on: April 13, 2014, 07:46:49 AM »
at first it seemed you had some narrowly constructed objections to reverse discrimination.

Indeed.  I've heard some good arguments against affirmative action.  At times in the past I have been for it, and at times I have been against it.  My feelings on affirmative action are mixed.

One problem though is that it's just a band aid solution to problems that start at a much younger age.  Social issues need fixing, rather than just using affirmative action when one gets college-aged, or when applying for certain jobs.

  My opinion on affirmative action turned when working at a hospital I overheard a doctor complain it pissed him off people thought he earned his degree on a curve.  People have gone to mixed schools, business want a diversified workforce, etc.  I feel it is time to phase out AA.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #162 on: April 13, 2014, 10:34:29 AM »
at first it seemed you had some narrowly constructed objections to reverse discrimination.

Indeed.  I've heard some good arguments against affirmative action.  At times in the past I have been for it, and at times I have been against it.  My feelings on affirmative action are mixed.

One problem though is that it's just a band aid solution to problems that start at a much younger age.  Social issues need fixing, rather than just using affirmative action when one gets college-aged, or when applying for certain jobs.

  My opinion on affirmative action turned when working at a hospital I overheard a doctor complain it pissed him off people thought he earned his degree on a curve.  People have gone to mixed schools, business want a diversified workforce, etc.  I feel it is time to phase out AA.

But is it better to have a job and a degree that some idiots think you got on a curve, or no job / degree at all?

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #163 on: April 13, 2014, 10:46:24 AM »
Fixer Upper you are a seriously misguided individual and your views reflect a very narrow perspective mostly likely developed out of ignorance and a substandard education.  My guess is that you have very little contacts with minority if any at all and you are incapable of understanding what it's like to be affected by generations of poverty and disadvantages.  I posted above the insidious ways in which historical discrimination continues in the mind of those whose fore-parents have suffered from this which we continue to see all around the world. Until you understand the psychological and real effects of discrimination, you will continue to be uninformed. I pity you and quite frankly you said you're a jerk but you're not only one you are a racist; own it. With that said, I am done with this thread because conversing with you is like conversing with a brick wall.

BlueHouse

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #164 on: April 14, 2014, 07:22:09 AM »
... your views reflect a very narrow perspective mostly likely developed out of ignorance and a substandard education.  My guess is that you have very little contacts with minority if any at all and you are incapable of understanding what it's like to be affected by generations of poverty and disadvantages. 
I'd say the above [modified] quote is accurate of many who have been raised in upper-middle class areas.  No matter the teachings and the attitudes, until we actually have that contact in an equitable relationship we really don't get it.  I was raised in a pretty liberal household in an "enlightened" area where racism, bigotry, and prejudice were never acceptable nor tolerated (at the all-white schools and the mostly-white town).  However, until we really live integration, I'd have to say most of us just don't "get it".  I live in a mixed-income community where many people truly are trying to "mix" socially and culturally.  I'm fascinated by the things I just didn't know about the way other people live. Sometimes I'm comfortable with it accepting those differences, and sometimes I'm not. 
Using unnatural means (AA) to accomplish the goal is not a terrible thing.  Perhaps instead of only seeing the benefit that one class of people receives, FU could look in the mirror and figure out what benefits he has received from the same arrangement, because they are there.   

golden1

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #165 on: April 14, 2014, 07:39:04 AM »
I used to have similar views to fixer-upper being raised by conservative parents in a very sheltered community.  Then I left home, grew up, learned about the world a bit, and got a clue.  I get that affirmative action seems unfair to those that don't have the context to understand why it exists.  I also think it missed addressing the real cause of the problem.  AA makes sense as a temporary equalizer while addressing the societal issues that are causing the basic inequality - unfortunately, those issues still exist and AA is still around.

As far as the whole issue of judgement goes, I see making a judgement as a serious responsibility.  I think you need to make them sometimes, but you need to gather as much information as possible and realize there are real live humans involved.  It is all too easy on the interwebs to make emotional snap judgements based on a sentence or a paragraph out of someones entire life.   I think there is an emotional reward to judging people - it feels good and it makes you feel superior. 

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #166 on: April 14, 2014, 08:32:37 AM »
As far as the whole issue of judgement goes, I see making a judgement as a serious responsibility.  I think you need to make them sometimes, but you need to gather as much information as possible and realize there are real live humans involved.  It is all too easy on the interwebs to make emotional snap judgements based on a sentence or a paragraph out of someones entire life.   I think there is an emotional reward to judging people - it feels good and it makes you feel superior.

Well said, thanks.
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arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #167 on: April 14, 2014, 11:15:45 AM »
Here's a great post by David over at Raptitude tangentially related to judging: http://www.raptitude.com/2014/04/internet-activism/

Quote
most internet activists let contempt seep into the message. It becomes about making others wrong instead of trying to help them be right. Just visit virtually any issue-related message board. Itís adversarial. Itís normal to blame people for their ignorance.

Ignorance, if thatís what it really is, isnít something people can fairly be blamed for. We donít choose what not to grasp, what not to have been taught, what not to have understood the significance of.

Ignorance is blind to itself. When youíre trying to rectify ignorance in someone else, itís easy to forget that youíre ignorant too, in ways you canít know.

Whoever you are, you have to admit thereís a hell of a lot you donít know, and you donít know that you donít know it. None of us are free of ignorance. So in our attempts to reduce ignorance we ought to approach others as fellow learners, rather than people worthy of blame.

The worst thing a person can do for their stance is to deliver it packaged with a moral judgment. This effectively eliminates the other personís freedom to agree, and may even create a committed opponent to their cause. Doing this to a lot of people reduces the publicís receptivity to the cause altogether. Even if it is the truth, when you hurl it at someone it will bounce rather than stick.

(Emphasis added.)

It's a good point - judgment is often counter-productive to your message (and yes, we all have a message to convey/that we project).
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avonlea

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #168 on: April 14, 2014, 11:45:44 AM »
I really enjoyed reading that post.  Thank you, arebelspy.

MDM

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #169 on: April 15, 2014, 12:54:36 AM »
Here's a great post by David over at Raptitude tangentially related to judging: http://www.raptitude.com/2014/04/internet-activism/

Sure is - thanks for sharing it.

Disappointing to read some of the comments section in the link, where folks display exactly the behavior the article suggests is unproductive.  Here's to all of us doing better.

fixer-upper

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #170 on: April 15, 2014, 03:30:23 AM »
Many have pointed out that black women don't always get the same opportunities as white men, and I agree that isn't right.  Giving them preferential treatment isn't right either.  Forcing white boys to pay more tuition as a way to subsidize black girl scholarships is not only a case of punishing the child for sins of the father, but also justifying the concept of two wrongs making a right.

I agree with all of this.  I still don't see how you can stand by your comment of them being economically advantaged.

They have an economic advantage, but so do white people (a much bigger one and many more of them), they are not economically advantaged.

Affirmative action is an attempt to address the inequality.  How would you address it?

The economic advantage is evident when you compare apples with apples.  A white boy starting out in a ghetto will likely pay (borrow) more for college, and have fewer job opportunities than the black girl next door.  Men already have a higher unemployment rate than women, and with the racial benefits of AA, she has an even larger advantage. 

Your argument of assigning different economic classes to each race is comparing apples and oranges.

Without racial consideration, I'd address income inequality with equal treatment and tough love:

If people don't want to work, why can't we allow it to be uncomfortable?  Rather than section 8 SFHs, stack them up like college kids in a dorm.  Rather than food stamps for free sodas, give them access to healthy food in a cafeteria with set hours.

Short-term this would create more inequality, but in the long-term it would encourage the poor to lift themselves up enough to get a place of their own.

Expanding on the thought, I wouldn't kick them out if they passed an income/savings threshold, but would charge a fixed rent as an incentive not to live there forever.  Those who couldn't pay in cash would be expected to do chores/work which would help pay the bills and teach job skills. 

For those who need job training, this situation could be tied into the CCC model, but rather than having it all funded by the government, I'd prefer to see the private sector do the training and provide the jobs in a paid internship (similar to the way it's done in Germany).

fixer-upper

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #171 on: April 15, 2014, 03:54:12 AM »
Having grow up in Virginia and had grandparents in Illinois I can say racism is not anymore common in one state over the other.  Fifty plus years ago racism was in the south.  Sure there are some racist out there who make big headlines, but it is not mainstream nor socially acceptable.  Current example is when the Redskins moved the training camp to Richmond, scores of people lined up to meet RG3.
 

The amount of racism depends on the type you're talking about.  Racism by whites is pretty evenly spread, but racism against  whites tends to have hotspots in areas with high ethnic concentrations. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 04:03:57 AM by fixer-upper »

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #172 on: April 15, 2014, 06:55:04 AM »
I haven't spent much time in the deep south though, I understand it's pretty common, but growing up on the West Coast (Seattle, California, Vegas) the concept is so foreign to me for someone to hold these views in the modern day, so I'm curious about the questions I wrote.  Do you view their race as doing that more than other races?  Do you think it's a frequent occurrence?

/shrug

Weird.

Underline part is what I am replying too. 

  Having grow up in Virginia and had grandparents in Illinois I can say racism is not anymore common in one state over the other.  Fifty plus years ago racism was in the south.  Sure there are some racist out there who make big headlines, but it is not mainstream nor socially acceptable.  Current example is when the Redskins moved the training camp to Richmond, scores of people lined up to meet RG3.

this isn't the deep south, but I definitely noticed a difference between Minnesota (where I lived for the first 21 years of my life) and Oklahoma. maybe it's just that people are more willing to make comments out loud (i.e. maybe Minnesotans are secretly racist, but it's not acceptable/"Minnesota nice" to say it in public?) but it's definitely different. maybe it just depends where you're at...

The amount of racism depends on the type you're talking about.  Racism by whites is pretty evenly spread, but racism against  whites tends to have hotspots in areas with high ethnic concentrations. 

I think maybe why I'm having such a hard time with your position is that I can't think of a SINGLE time I've felt I was the target of racism (I'm white).

actually, I take that back, one time in college when I was working in an underserved middle school as part of my ed major, some pissed off (Native American) eighth grader who didn't want to do his math assignment said something along the lines of "well you don't know anything, you're just a white girl from the suburbs!" I guess that could be construed as racist, but he was pretty correct... I AM a white girl from the suburbs, I've benefited massively from it (great public high school, supportive parents who helped me apply to colleges, I'm rarely the only person of my race in the room, people don't assume my behavior/characteristics are representative of my whole race, etc.), and I have no idea what it's like to grow up as a poor racial minority in Minneapolis.

regardless, compared to all the benefits I've received, a moment of rudeness from an eighth grader seems pretty insignificant :)

Luck12

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #173 on: April 15, 2014, 09:11:09 AM »
LOL.  Fixer Upper's rantings are straight out of the angry white boy right wing nutjob playbook.    As Chris Rock would say "not a single white guy in here would trade places with me and I'm rich.  The one legged white busboy wouldn't trade places 'cos he's thinking "Nah, I wanna see where this white guy thing takes me". 

 

rocksinmyhead

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #174 on: April 15, 2014, 05:57:01 PM »
LOL.  Fixer Upper's rantings are straight out of the angry white boy right wing nutjob playbook.    As Chris Rock would say "not a single white guy in here would trade places with me and I'm rich.  The one legged white busboy wouldn't trade places 'cos he's thinking "Nah, I wanna see where this white guy thing takes me". 

LOL! I enjoy Chris Rock.

fixer-upper

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #175 on: April 15, 2014, 07:38:37 PM »
LOL.  Fixer Upper's rantings are straight out of the angry white boy right wing nutjob playbook.    As Chris Rock would say "not a single white guy in here would trade places with me and I'm rich.  The one legged white busboy wouldn't trade places 'cos he's thinking "Nah, I wanna see where this white guy thing takes me". 

Attacking the messenger rather than refuting the message is the lowest form of debate.  Perhaps you could do better?


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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #176 on: April 16, 2014, 07:18:43 AM »
I've become convinced that fixer-upper's arguments stem from the notion that white males are victims of a society run amock. Affirmative action unfairly benefits minorities, the courts unfairly benefit women. Ergo, white males are at a disadvantage (if we assume white men have no other inherent advantages, which we do and leverage All. The. Time.).

I'll ignore the bitterness in his writing and the fact that when talking about blacks he portrays them as all coming from the ghetto (affirmative action benefits suburban blacks too, does it not?). Whether fixer-upper is a racist or not is irrelevant to the argument. (Having said that, if he doesn't feel whites are inherently superior, he's made a helluva case that blacks and/or black society is inherently inferior)

Fixer-upper, you are just plain dead wrong. Consider. Not a soul has agreed with you so far. That should give you, or anyone, some pause. I'm right and everyone else is wrong is the path the loonies travel. We have pointed out the various ways white males are more advantaged, you have neither addressed or even acknowledged those points remotely adequately. From my chair it seems like your argument hinges on one thing. Since minorities have taken advantage of opportunities not available to you (affirmative action), they retain an advantage overall. What you have done is isolate one or two points on the side of the ledger that bolsters your claim and simply ignored the other side of the ledger. That position is so badly flawed that it is just plain idiotic. Time to reconsider.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #177 on: April 16, 2014, 07:46:53 AM »
Well said, hybrid.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #178 on: April 16, 2014, 09:25:35 AM »
Well said, hybrid.

+1.  Thank you for being eloquent hybrid where I have failed to make my point.
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #179 on: April 16, 2014, 09:42:26 AM »
I've become convinced that fixer-upper's arguments stem from the notion that white males are victims of a society run amock. Affirmative action unfairly benefits minorities, the courts unfairly benefit women. Ergo, white males are at a disadvantage (if we assume white men have no other inherent advantages, which we do and leverage All. The. Time.).

I'll ignore the bitterness in his writing and the fact that when talking about blacks he portrays them as all coming from the ghetto (affirmative action benefits suburban blacks too, does it not?). Whether fixer-upper is a racist or not is irrelevant to the argument. (Having said that, if he doesn't feel whites are inherently superior, he's made a helluva case that blacks and/or black society is inherently inferior)

Fixer-upper, you are just plain dead wrong. Consider. Not a soul has agreed with you so far. That should give you, or anyone, some pause. I'm right and everyone else is wrong is the path the loonies travel. We have pointed out the various ways white males are more advantaged, you have neither addressed or even acknowledged those points remotely adequately. From my chair it seems like your argument hinges on one thing. Since minorities have taken advantage of opportunities not available to you (affirmative action), they retain an advantage overall. What you have done is isolate one or two points on the side of the ledger that bolsters your claim and simply ignored the other side of the ledger. That position is so badly flawed that it is just plain idiotic. Time to reconsider.

Well...maybe.  First remember http://www.raptitude.com/2014/04/internet-activism/.  Then consider
Quote
Racism by whites is pretty evenly spread
and
Quote
Many have pointed out that black women don't always get the same opportunities as white men, and I agree that isn't right.  Giving them preferential treatment isn't right either.  Forcing white boys to pay more tuition as a way to subsidize black girl scholarships is not only a case of punishing the child for sins of the father, but also justifying the concept of two wrongs making a right.
One may choose to disagree with those comments, but (e.g.) calling the writer an "angry white boy right wing nutjob" isn't the most persuasive argument.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 09:47:17 AM by MDM »

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #180 on: April 16, 2014, 10:13:00 AM »
One may choose to disagree with those comments, but (e.g.) calling the writer an "angry white boy right wing nutjob" isn't the most persuasive argument.

And Hybrid did not do that, so I'm not sure how that's relevant.
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #181 on: April 16, 2014, 10:22:10 AM »
Correct, hybrid himself did not say those words.  But "That position is so badly flawed that it is just plain idiotic" isn't exactly a huge step toward dispassionate discourse.

Yes, at times fixer-upper has done his share of flaming.  At other times (e.g. the two quotes from him in my previous post) he has acknowledged others' views and made some objectively reasonable points.  Any thoughts on those points?


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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #182 on: April 16, 2014, 10:30:57 AM »
... your views reflect a very narrow perspective mostly likely developed out of ignorance and a substandard education.  My guess is that you have very little contacts with minority if any at all and you are incapable of understanding what it's like to be affected by generations of poverty and disadvantages. 
I'd say the above [modified] quote is accurate of many who have been raised in upper-middle class areas.  No matter the teachings and the attitudes, until we actually have that contact in an equitable relationship we really don't get it.  I was raised in a pretty liberal household in an "enlightened" area where racism, bigotry, and prejudice were never acceptable nor tolerated (at the all-white schools and the mostly-white town).  However, until we really live integration, I'd have to say most of us just don't "get it".  I live in a mixed-income community where many people truly are trying to "mix" socially and culturally.  I'm fascinated by the things I just didn't know about the way other people live. Sometimes I'm comfortable with it accepting those differences, and sometimes I'm not. 
Using unnatural means (AA) to accomplish the goal is not a terrible thing.  Perhaps instead of only seeing the benefit that one class of people receives, FU could look in the mirror and figure out what benefits he has received from the same arrangement, because they are there.
Not all upper-middle class areas are white.  I grew up in northern California and though my mom had to look for it, the school I went to did not have any majority race.  I will fully admit to being a classist based partly on how I grew up but I was exposed to all races.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #183 on: April 16, 2014, 10:41:01 AM »
Not all upper-middle class areas are white.  I grew up in northern California

I was expecting "Asian" right after this.  Many upper-middle class communities in CA, and elsewhere, have a majority population of Asian descent.
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Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #184 on: April 16, 2014, 11:17:51 AM »
MOD EDIT: This post was split off from this thread: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/ask-a-mustachian/would-you-move-to-the-middle-east-to-help-your-finances/

To try and let that thread get back on track.

/END MOD EDIT.

Maybe we can add it to the off topic judgement thread so we can keep all the racism in one place.

Or how about we just drop it, and get back on topic?

On second thought, yes, please no one respond to greaper here.  If you'd like to, go cut and paste his comment(s) over there and feel free to respond.

Racism, seriously?   I was trying to respectfully bow out of the conversation but I have a hard time doing that when people lob terms that don't apply to the conversation at hand.    Words mean things.


rac∑ism
[rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


race
2 [reys] Show IPA
noun
1.
a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2.
a population so related.

Religion is not a characteristic of race.   Maybe, maybe in the case of Judaism where because of a nomadic separate existence throughout history there are significant differences in genetic markers and distinct subgroups within the genre.   For instance Sephardic Jews.  Though the late Christopher Hitchins laid out a great argument against such a claim in his book "God Is Not Great."

If you want to broad brush me with an -ism, at least use the appropriate terminology.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 11:28:54 AM by arebelspy »

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #185 on: April 16, 2014, 11:27:18 AM »
Except that, as I said, it didn't read to me to be attacking a religion, but a whole race of people.

Like I said, I don't use slurs when it comes to characteristics thrust upon someone by birth.   I also don't believe that gender, race or sexual orientation makes an entire group of people act a certain way and I find it offensive when people use blanket statements for African Americans, women or gays.

But people born in and living in the Middle East all act a certain way?  (That, to me, is something thrust upon them at birth.)

Your statement was about all the people living there (and, more specifically, their government).  Not just those who believe a certain religion.

You specifically noted:
Quote
I don't trust a lot of the laws in the middle east.    There have been some crazy judgements against foreigners even in Dubai for things like adultery.

While I agree with that, I don't see it as a reason to use a slur against everyone in the country.

It was a racist comment, and calling it as such absolutely did apply to the conversation at hand.
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #186 on: April 16, 2014, 11:42:51 AM »
Except that, as I said, it didn't read to me to be attacking a religion, but a whole race of people.

Like I said, I don't use slurs when it comes to characteristics thrust upon someone by birth.   I also don't believe that gender, race or sexual orientation makes an entire group of people act a certain way and I find it offensive when people use blanket statements for African Americans, women or gays.

But people born in and living in the Middle East all act a certain way?  (That, to me, is something thrust upon them at birth.)

Your statement was about all the people living there (and, more specifically, their government).  Not just those who believe a certain religion.

You specifically noted:
Quote
I don't trust a lot of the laws in the middle east.    There have been some crazy judgements against foreigners even in Dubai for things like adultery.

While I agree with that, I don't see it as a reason to use a slur against everyone in the country.

It was a racist comment, and calling it as such absolutely did apply to the conversation at hand.

Far from it.   I spent the evening enjoying craft brew at the home of a friend of Arabic descent a few weeks ago.  I left because I couldn't keep up with all the fallen muslims, I can't do more than 3 or 4 beers these days and those guys started breaking out the vodka.

See, Arabic is a race.   And to say Arabs or Persians are oppressive jerks is racist.   They're not by birth.   Though if they join the Islamic religion and support a theocracy that oppresses people, I won't respect them and might call them names.    I was born Catholic, I do like the new pope, but I have massive problems with the catholic church as a whole and haven't been a member for almost 20 years.    Any attacks against Catholicism wouldn't be an attack against me.

My comments were meant for the ruling elite that exploit religion and lack of education of the religious masses.   When I say Mormon, I'm referring to the Mormon church, not necessarily the kid forced to go door to door on his bicycle.  When I say Muslim, I'm referring to those in the power structure at the governmental level.   Not some poor sod that wasn't allowed to have a proper education separate from religious indoctrination.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 11:48:15 AM by greaper007 »

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #187 on: April 16, 2014, 11:47:24 AM »
See, Arabic is a race.   And to say Arabs or Persians are oppressive jerks is racist.   They're not by birth.

Correct.  And your comment "Will the Muhammad's let you get your drink on, or do you have to spend the next few years sober." read to me as attacking all Arabs by calling them a racial slur.  You weren't just attacking a religion, but a country and government and people.

In other words, you may have meant it to only target Arabs of a certain religion, but that's not how it came across.

And yes, had you said "Will the Mohammedans let you get your drink on" it would have not been offensive at all.

As you said, words matter.
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #188 on: April 16, 2014, 11:50:04 AM »
Yes, I modified my comment above.   And I apologize for the earlier word.   As I said I typed it quickly on my iPhone and didn't really proofread very well.   Unfortunately, neither the first nor the last time I'll do that.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #189 on: April 16, 2014, 11:53:01 AM »
Yes, I modified my comment above.   And I apologize for the earlier word.   As I said I typed it quickly on my iPhone and didn't really proofread very well.   Unfortunately, neither the first nor the last time I'll do that.

Got it.  Thanks for the clarification.  :)
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #190 on: April 16, 2014, 11:55:22 AM »

I was expecting "Asian" right after this.  Many upper-middle class communities in CA, and elsewhere, have a majority population of Asian descent.

We're actually at the point that some California colleges have statistically nonconforming Asian populations because of the repeal of affirmative action for CA college admissions.    As a white male, I'd be picketing the state house for my affirmative action admission.

I remember when I was in college 10 years ago a professor told us that he had to let some men into a grad program on an AA basis because the majority of eligible applicants were women.   Affirmative Action can go both ways.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #191 on: April 16, 2014, 12:16:14 PM »
Correct, hybrid himself did not say those words.  But "That position is so badly flawed that it is just plain idiotic" isn't exactly a huge step toward dispassionate discourse.

Yes, at times fixer-upper has done his share of flaming.  At other times (e.g. the two quotes from him in my previous post) he has acknowledged others' views and made some objectively reasonable points.  Any thoughts on those points?

I've been very careful to attack the position and not the one making it in this argument. In fact, I was the one who called out folks playing the racist card prematurely (though, in hindsight, fixer-upper has done little and less to disprove their claims). But I refuse to back away from stating a position is idiotic when I can demonstrate that it rather clearly is. This argument has been akin to debating a flat-earther or a Holocaust denier. At some point it is fair game to disparage the argument itself.

MDM, respectfully, you are just muddying the waters.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #192 on: April 16, 2014, 01:10:16 PM »
Not all upper-middle class areas are white.  I grew up in northern California

I was expecting "Asian" right after this.  Many upper-middle class communities in CA, and elsewhere, have a majority population of Asian descent.
I think my old area now is approximately equal between Vietnamese and Mexican, lol.  I take it you are from Ca?

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #193 on: April 16, 2014, 01:13:34 PM »
Not all upper-middle class areas are white.  I grew up in northern California

I was expecting "Asian" right after this.  Many upper-middle class communities in CA, and elsewhere, have a majority population of Asian descent.
I think my old area now is approximately equal between Vietnamese and Mexican, lol.  I take it you are from Ca?

Went to college in CA, and my wife is from CA.  Much of the west coast is similar though (Seattle, for example).
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #194 on: April 16, 2014, 01:20:17 PM »
How can it be that no one has yet quoted the Ultimate Righteous Dude? I aspire to this ideal, but I rarely achieve it:

ďDo not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 ďWhy do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brotherís eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ĎLet me take the speck out of your eye,í when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brotherís eye."

Of course, this worldview says there is plenty of judging to be done, just not by us.
Not all of us are Christians so his opinion (as written by other men) is of no relevance to many.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #195 on: April 16, 2014, 01:23:20 PM »
Hybrid: I almost did note that your post was completely dispassionate but decided to pass due to the "idiotic" line.  You do indeed tend toward even-handedness.

All: The very low bandwidth available in this type of communication does lead to communication problems.  It is good when folks take the time to respond to all parts of a post.  Many people here do that - consequently the discussions are more interesting than on many other forums.  Still there are times when, intentionally or not, parts of a post are selectively addressed or ignored.  Then, rightly or wrongly, the OP believes the selectivity was intentional: e.g., ever see a post where someone says in so many words "you aren't responding to my points/questions"?

For those who do take the time to consider all parts of a post, thanks and keep it up.  And I believe I'm speaking to the majority here.  Human nature being what it is, unfortunately, the conscientious may tend to wonder if I'm "accusing" them, while others will have no idea this is directed at them.  So it goes....




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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #196 on: April 16, 2014, 01:34:04 PM »
Hybrid: I almost did note that your post was completely dispassionate but decided to pass due to the "idiotic" line.  You do indeed tend toward even-handedness.

All: The very low bandwidth available in this type of communication does lead to communication problems.  It is good when folks take the time to respond to all parts of a post.  Many people here do that - consequently the discussions are more interesting than on many other forums.  Still there are times when, intentionally or not, parts of a post are selectively addressed or ignored.  Then, rightly or wrongly, the OP believes the selectivity was intentional: e.g., ever see a post where someone says in so many words "you aren't responding to my points/questions"?

For those who do take the time to consider all parts of a post, thanks and keep it up.  And I believe I'm speaking to the majority here.  Human nature being what it is, unfortunately, the conscientious may tend to wonder if I'm "accusing" them, while others will have no idea this is directed at them.  So it goes....

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #197 on: April 16, 2014, 02:01:54 PM »
LOL.  Fixer Upper's rantings are straight out of the angry white boy right wing nutjob playbook.    As Chris Rock would say "not a single white guy in here would trade places with me and I'm rich.  The one legged white busboy wouldn't trade places 'cos he's thinking "Nah, I wanna see where this white guy thing takes me". 

LOL! I enjoy Chris Rock.

LOL, but so true.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #198 on: April 17, 2014, 12:51:39 PM »
at first it seemed you had some narrowly constructed objections to reverse discrimination.

Indeed.  I've heard some good arguments against affirmative action.  At times in the past I have been for it, and at times I have been against it.  My feelings on affirmative action are mixed.

One problem though is that it's just a band aid solution to problems that start at a much younger age.  Social issues need fixing, rather than just using affirmative action when one gets college-aged, or when applying for certain jobs.

  My opinion on affirmative action turned when working at a hospital I overheard a doctor complain it pissed him off people thought he earned his degree on a curve.  People have gone to mixed schools, business want a diversified workforce, etc.  I feel it is time to phase out AA.

But is it better to have a job and a degree that some idiots think you got on a curve, or no job / degree at all?

  Good question.  In this case the doctor's complaint was having a hard time growing his practice because the public view of affirmative action.  He had learned second hand that his patients had been hesitant to see him but quickly became very happy with skills.  He would have been in med school anyway, information from another conversation.  But still a very good question.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #199 on: April 18, 2014, 04:43:34 AM »
I've become convinced that fixer-upper's arguments stem from the notion that white males are victims of a society run amock. Affirmative action unfairly benefits minorities, the courts unfairly benefit women. Ergo, white males are at a disadvantage (if we assume white men have no other inherent advantages, which we do and leverage All. The. Time.).

You're assuming ALL white males a) have inherent advantages, and b) leverage those advantages.  You may have an advantage, but others may not.  A white boy from a ghetto doesn't have your middle class connections.  An Appalachian...well they're an Appalachian.  A Creole isn't going to have much success against an urbanite, either.  Discrimination among white people happens as often as other forms of discrimination.

Quote
I'll ignore the bitterness in his writing and the fact that when talking about blacks he portrays them as all coming from the ghetto (affirmative action benefits suburban blacks too, does it not?). Whether fixer-upper is a racist or not is irrelevant to the argument. (Having said that, if he doesn't feel whites are inherently superior, he's made a helluva case that blacks and/or black society is inherently inferior)

Ghetto society is inherently inferior (high crime rates, poor educational standards, broken families, etc.)  What causes black people to remain behind during white flight is a good topic for discussion.

Quote
Fixer-upper, you are just plain dead wrong. Consider. Not a soul has agreed with you so far. That should give you, or anyone, some pause. I'm right and everyone else is wrong is the path the loonies travel.

Genius is often mistaken for (and usually borders on) lunacy.  Back in 2007, most people thought I was crazy for paying off my mortgage instead of getting an "almost" guaranteed 10% in stocks. 

Quote
We have pointed out the various ways white males are more advantaged, you have neither addressed or even acknowledged those points remotely adequately. From my chair it seems like your argument hinges on one thing. Since minorities have taken advantage of opportunities not available to you (affirmative action), they retain an advantage overall. What you have done is isolate one or two points on the side of the ledger that bolsters your claim and simply ignored the other side of the ledger. That position is so badly flawed that it is just plain idiotic. Time to reconsider.

I pointed out one way in which white males are less advantaged, and was flamed by a mob of group-thinkers who patted themselves on the back for being in favor of the status-quo.  There's not much use debating people who would rather cherry-pick posts to prove racism than actually discuss the merits of an idea.  Crying about racism has become somewhat of a national pastime, and it doesn't help us.  What would help is understanding why people of slum cultures don't seem to be trying to better themselves, and trying to fix it without artificially holding down the high achievers (or just accepting that some people don't want to succeed). 

Earlier I pointed out how discriminatory subsidies actually hurt the recipients, and rather than using that to argue that "the poor black people are at a disadvantage", perhaps it would help to consider that they share the fault for allowing affirmative action and welfare expansion to continue within their community.