Author Topic: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?  (Read 16166 times)

LMBB

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2017, 03:36:55 AM »
I think this thread is fantastic!

Honestly, I'm pretty fed up with politicians of almost every stripe at this point! I think both sides are guilty of ratcheting up the political rhetoric for some time now. They've all been crying "FIRE" in the crowded theater and can't understand why people are starting to get trampled.

But I digress. When I was younger I was fairly conservative because I believed in things like:

1) personal responsibility
2) fiscal responsibility
3) The right to own a gun. Maybe not if a criminal or mentally ill, or just passing thru a gun show. But in most cases, yes.

I still believe in those things, but now I also care about:
4) common resources (air, water, food, climate, transportation)
5) health care - our system is so messed up and the only way to really fix it is to go single payer
6) a woman's right to decide what to do with her own body, limit abortions thru family planning and education
7) marriage equality
8) Minding our own business internationally as much as possible
9) caring for our Vets (here I probably agree with right except method - I oppose privatization of VA)
10) COMPLETE separation of church and state.
11) decriminalization of marijuana
12) SCIENCE!
13) campaign finance, lobbying, and conflict of interest reform, term limits

So I answered the question backwards. I'm now a left-leaning independent, but have some areas of agreement with the right. I feel that there is a major disconnect between the two parties and the actual views of their constituents. Both sides seem more concerned with keeping themselves in power than in actually serving the people they purport to represent. It's so encouraging though to look through the previous posts and not feel like my head will explode. There IS common ground. There COULD be discussions about how to approach problems if the people working for them genuinely want to work together to resolve issues.

nereo

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2017, 07:50:01 AM »
Some have mentioned mandatory service.  I'm not a fan of mandatory military service.  We end up with plenty of folks who decide joining the military was a mistake, they take up much of our time.
80% of my leadership & management time was spent on the 20% who neither wanted to be led nor managed...

Interesting.  I'd say the same is true in higher education - 80% of my time is spent dealing with students who don't have a clear reason for being there, nor a firm direction about where they are headed. 

Travis

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2017, 08:08:23 AM »
I go back and forth on such a range of issues I'm not sure if I can say I "lean" either direction.  A large part of this is because I don't consider the terms "conservative" and "Republican" interchangeable anymore.

Where I agree with the Democrats:

1. Folks can marry whomever they want. It doesn't cost me anything and doesn't affect me.  In Chris Rock's words "Gay people deserve to be miserable like the rest of us!"
2. Legalize marijuana, tax it, and subject it to FDA regs.
3. Figure out how to make college affordable even if it requires government money, but means test its use.  As a citizen I want everyone as smart as possible, but as a taxpayer I don't want to subsidize someone whose heart isn't in it.  I also don't want a system that encourages reckless loan issuing because the government will cover the bank and the university knows the tuition will keep coming.
4. Energy production should emphasize renewable sources.  I'm not convinced that it should be federally funded, but through regulations and policies it needs to be strongly supported.
5. National infrastructure must be maintained, and raise taxes to do it (fuel taxes at least)
6. A health care system where everyone can be treated. I don't have the right answer to build/fund it, but the ACA had glaring flaws that made it unsustainable.
7. Free trade. It benefits consumers with competition, forces inefficient businesses and industries to be environmentally friendly, and gives developing nations a chance to be economically viable.
8. Free speech is critical to our way of life; however, I don't tolerate violence or repressing the speech of someone else because you don't like their position and claiming you're just using your own free speech.
9. Keep the environment clean.  I have no problem paying a little more for my water if I know it isn't full of industrial runoff.

Where I agree with Republicans:
1. Simplify regulations for owning/operating a business.  The smaller the business, the heavier the burden of regulatory compliance.
2. Fair trade. If we're going to have free trade, ensure it's a level playing field and participating nations obey the same labor/environmental laws.  There should be exceptions for a few industries that feed national security matters like rare raw materials.
3. Free speech. A big chunk of the media leans left and isn't shy about; however, that doesn't excuse making shit up just to have something to argue about. Agree that blocking an entire interstate and calling it a lawful protest is not free speech.
4. Energy independence is a national security matter; however, that doesn't mean just pumping oil regardless of the damage done in the process.
5. Personal responsibility and having a thick skin are critical parts of life. Don't complain that the government should fix all of your problems, especially if it's because someone said something that made you unhappy.
6. You shouldn't be treated like a criminal for being financially successful.  I'm not saying we couldn't afford higher income taxes at certain brackets, but acting like my net worth is a resource to be pilfered on a whim for something questionable isn't cool.


Things where I think both parties get it wrong and I can't pick a side:
1. You can't cherry pick science. Democrats believe GMOs are the devil while Republicans won't accept evolution or climate change despite significant evidence.
2. Federal budget. They both like to spend, just on different things. When they talk about balancing the budget, they mean cutting whatever the other party likes.
3. Federal subsidies.  This includes protectionism to keep inefficient businesses afloat.
4. Gun ownership. I'm allowed to own a gun. Owning a belt-fed machine gun is dangerous to everyone around me. "Assault weapon" is a term used by legislatures with varying definitions to the point of it being meaningless because it rarely describes the function of the weapon and only the look.  This definition gets changed by left-leaning legislatures annually to chip away at ownership rights and those who do often show themselves to be woefully underqualified to make those distinctions.  On the other hand, people who sling AR-15s across their chest to go to Starbucks for the purpose of rubbing it in my face are idiots and are the reason liberals are scared of some lawful gun owners.
5. Governance.  Both can't help but spend most of their time in office doing victory laps and passing laws just to piss off the party.  Harry Reid shot down countless Republican budget proposals out of hand while Mitch McConnell flat out said on the day he became majority leader his job was to make Obama's second term as painful as possible.  As soon as the majority changes hands the only thing on their minds is revenge and making the extremes of their party's platforms into law.

davisgang90

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2017, 10:11:36 AM »
I just want to comment that this is the best "political" thread I've ever read on this site.  Well done to all for well thought out responses that highlight what we have in common rather than our differences.


Cellista

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2017, 11:32:28 AM »
I'm a liberal Dem but I agree with the right that it really is better to have two parents to raise a child. They can be parents of same sex. 

davef

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2017, 05:09:54 AM »
Hmm.

1) I am for increased safety checks around guns.
2) I like infrastructure spending.
3) I hate political correctness.
4) I am for prison reform.
5) I would legalize many drugs.
6) If I want to end my own life, I should be able to do it. it's my life, dammit.
7) I think the best way to minimize abortion is mandatory sex education and free birth control.
8) I am clueless about how to fix health care, but I think anyone should be able to self-insure for the small stuff and buy major medical for the big stuff.
9) I am fine with higher taxes, including those on inheritance. Tax rates are historically low.
10) I have no problem with a VAT tax.
11) I think there should be more "industrial" high schools teaching technical skills and awarding associates degrees. These should be free.
12) I think we are testing our kids so much that they aren't learning how to think for themselves and solve problems, which is what success in life is all about.
13) I believe that providing homeless people with housing and support saves governments money.
14) I think we are too quick to throw money at many problems, though.
15) I think immigration and diversity made this country great, and if we do anything to suppress them, we do ourselves a disservice.
16) Anyone who denies the science behind evolution is an idiot.


I suppose I lean right but (my democrat friends say so, though I've never voted for a republican for president.
I agree with all your points and more.
1) Gay marriage
2) Any well written laws that promote social equality (the equal pay for equal work act was written by idiots)
3) The role of the EPA, in general, though I do not like their unchecked power.
4) Keeping state and religion separate

Morning Glory

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2017, 06:12:27 AM »
I am with the left/democrats on most things except for:

Balancing the budget should be a higher priority than either major party gives it

Quit subsidizing soda and junk food. i am for making sure people have enough food, and also healthcare. The healthcare will cost less if we give them healthier food.  Part of this is the result of farm subsidies that make staple crops incredibly cheap. 

I am usually against regressive taxes but I would be for a sugar tax if it funded dental care for poor kids.  I also think that gasoline should be more expensive in order to encourage people to drive less.

TPP: it contained wording that would give corporations more power than governments


nereo

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2017, 06:43:27 AM »
I keep seeing statements here like:
Quote
3) I hate political correctness.

I honestly aren't quite certain what they mean.  Are people saying political correctness sometimes goes too far (which I can sympathize with), or that we shouldn't have any standards for political correctness.
for example, should I be able to call my technician (who is gay) a fag? refer to my boss as "the big nig__r"? tell our lab assistant she's got a 'smokin' hot ass' and is 'much nicer to look at than our last assistant, who was a real porker?"

i'm serious here, because I hear this a lot.  When people talk about how political correctness is a big problem, what do they mean?

Fishindude

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2017, 06:45:53 AM »
I'm far right, hard core conservative but think the war on drugs is largely just a waste of time, effort and money.
Decriminalize most of this stuff or make it legal and get some tax revenue from it.

Chris22

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2017, 08:10:17 AM »
I keep seeing statements here like:
Quote
3) I hate political correctness.

I honestly aren't quite certain what they mean.  Are people saying political correctness sometimes goes too far (which I can sympathize with), or that we shouldn't have any standards for political correctness.
for example, should I be able to call my technician (who is gay) a fag? refer to my boss as "the big nig__r"? tell our lab assistant she's got a 'smokin' hot ass' and is 'much nicer to look at than our last assistant, who was a real porker?"

i'm serious here, because I hear this a lot.  When people talk about how political correctness is a big problem, what do they mean?

I'll only speak for myself, but it's the creeping standard that pisses me off.  Obviously the blatant racial slurs and sexual harassment are inexcusable, but now it's the "cultural appropriation" police.  And we have outcries over football players wearing sombreros and wearing Moana costumes.  Plus the whole transvestite thing.  It feels like the line is ever-moving, and always over more and more trivial "offenses."

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Cwadda

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2017, 08:55:58 AM »
I keep seeing statements here like:
Quote
3) I hate political correctness.

I honestly aren't quite certain what they mean.  Are people saying political correctness sometimes goes too far (which I can sympathize with), or that we shouldn't have any standards for political correctness.
for example, should I be able to call my technician (who is gay) a fag? refer to my boss as "the big nig__r"? tell our lab assistant she's got a 'smokin' hot ass' and is 'much nicer to look at than our last assistant, who was a real porker?"

i'm serious here, because I hear this a lot.  When people talk about how political correctness is a big problem, what do they mean?

I'll only speak for myself, but it's the creeping standard that pisses me off.  Obviously the blatant racial slurs and sexual harassment are inexcusable, but now it's the "cultural appropriation" police.  And we have outcries over football players wearing sombreros and wearing Moana costumes.  Plus the whole transvestite thing.  It feels like the line is ever-moving, and always over more and more trivial "offenses."

I had a tour guide that corrected himself on saying "hey guys" because 'guys' is gender-specific.

calimom

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2017, 09:03:38 AM »
I think if people who are somehow morally offended by the term "political correctness" substituted it with the word "respect", it would have the desired effect. Is respect such a difficult construct? I'd much rather live in a world that occasionally tilted toward the absurd in choosing words carefully than one where people toss insults and slurs around.

Chris22

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2017, 09:07:13 AM »
I think if people who are somehow morally offended by the term "political correctness" substituted it with the word "respect", it would have the desired effect. Is respect such a difficult construct? I'd much rather live in a world that occasionally tilted toward the absurd in choosing words carefully than one where people toss insults and slurs around.

But look at the examples I pointed out; do any of those really suggest that the "offenders" were really setting out to disrespect people? 

golden1

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2017, 09:15:07 AM »
Quote
I'll only speak for myself, but it's the creeping standard that pisses me off.

This just means you are old.  Really.

I am thrilled that standards are changing.  That means society is evolving and including more people as "us" and worthy of respect.  I mean, if the majority of members of an ethnic group say something is offensive, why is it a problem that we say "Oh, my bad.  Sorry."  I don't understand why you would WANT to make jokes that you know make people feel uncomfortable. 

Now that being said, what upsets me from the left is that they view people making statements that are politically incorrect as a sign that they have some sort of irredeemable moral failing and should be shunned.  It goes too far when people aren't allowed to apologize and aren't given chances to improve.  That is just leftist bullying and never acceptable IMO. 

Cwadda

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2017, 09:17:02 AM »
Quote
I'll only speak for myself, but it's the creeping standard that pisses me off.

This just means you are old.  Really.

I am thrilled that standards are changing.  That means society is evolving and including more people as "us" and worthy of respect.  I mean, if the majority of members of an ethnic group say something is offensive, why is it a problem that we say "Oh, my bad.  Sorry."  I don't understand why you would WANT to make jokes that you know make people feel uncomfortable. 

Now that being said, what upsets me from the left is that they view people making statements that are politically incorrect as a sign that they have some sort of irredeemable moral failing and should be shunned.  It goes too far when people aren't allowed to apologize and aren't given chances to improve.  That is just leftist bullying and never acceptable IMO.

Well said.

nereo

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2017, 09:20:24 AM »
ok, and thanks for the responses.  I'd agree that we often go to absurd lengths to come up with neutral terms.
I'm also not certain how we could or even if we should regulate these things (which seems to be the basis of this thread).
As much as I hate hearing it, I think words like "nig__" shouldn't be banned (free speech and all), yet workplace discrimination laws definitely ARE needed. 
So where's the line here?

regarding the 'respect' issue; what comes to mind is that it's never whether the speaker meant to offend, but whether the audience was offended.  Sometimes that's because people are too sensitive, but I've heard plenty of people say "he's a fag - but I don't mean that in a bad way, so it's ok for me to say that." No it isn't (to me).

jeninco

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2017, 09:24:27 AM »
I'm a liberal Dem but I agree with the right that it really is better to have two parents to raise a child. They can be parents of same sex.

I've actually become partial to the idea of three or more adults. Because sometimes you've pissed off the first two so badly that you need to appeal to the good graces of the uncle next door, and everyone needs some breathing room.

Actual genders irrelevant here, for sure.

Chris22

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2017, 09:32:49 AM »
Quote
I'll only speak for myself, but it's the creeping standard that pisses me off.

This just means you are old.  Really.

I'm 34.  I doubt it.

Quote
I am thrilled that standards are changing.  That means society is evolving and including more people as "us" and worthy of respect.  I mean, if the majority of members of an ethnic group say something is offensive, why is it a problem that we say "Oh, my bad.  Sorry."  I don't understand why you would WANT to make jokes that you know make people feel uncomfortable. 

Do Mexicans, as a group, really get upset about people wearing sombreros?  Are Samoan people really upset about Moana?  That's the other thing that pisses me off, it seems as though there are groups of Perpetually Offended out there who just grasp as stuff to be offended by *on behalf of other groups*.  How many times has there been an outcry over sports teams with Native American names, only to have the actual tribe they're named for come back and say "Uh, yeah, it doesn't bother us?"  Look at this assclown; "I know the Seminoles gave them permission to use the likeness but I still think it's wrong."  Well, sorry, who the fuck is he to say that?  THAT is the kind of political correctness I object to.

nereo

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2017, 09:38:48 AM »
Quote
I'll only speak for myself, but it's the creeping standard that pisses me off.

This just means you are old.  Really.

I'm 34.  I doubt it.

In historical terms you'd be almost dead (so would I, now that I think about it)
:-P

golden1

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2017, 09:51:45 AM »
Quote
I'm 34.  I doubt it.

That's old enough to count for the purposes of this discussion.  You were an adult when most people still thought gay marriage should be illegal.  Your neural pathways are less flexible, and you are old enough to experience nostalgia. 

It isn't that I am ageist (and I think I see where you are going here....).  I just have noticed an impulse in myself to rebel when younger people tell me that something I say isn't politically correct.  But I guess I just think the burden should be on me to attempt to be more flexible whenever I can.  I mean, it doesn't hurt me to be more sensitive, so why are my feelings more important than someone else's?   

A story:  I remember being 10 years old and walking with my grandma down the street (she was about 70).  A black man came walking towards me, and I stepped out of the way to let him by.  My grandma was aghast because according to her, he should have stepped out of my way in deference because he was black.  It wasn't obscenely racist, but it reflected a worldview that was common when she grew up.  She was appalled when I said that wasn't fair to expect him to do that because of his race. 

Chris22

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2017, 10:00:48 AM »
Quote
I'm 34.  I doubt it.
But I guess I just think the burden should be on me to attempt to be more flexible whenever I can.  I mean, it doesn't hurt me to be more sensitive, so why are my feelings more important than someone else's?

Because at some point we stop being respectful and we start tripping over each other to not offend, and everything becomes so bland and meaningful dialogue ceases. 

Someone made the comment in one of the threads (maybe "what's happening in the country?") about how vast swaths of the country has been labeled racist for just asking about certain things, or for not understanding where the current political winds are blowing, and it has just gotten to the point where those people shut down now because they're so tired of being accused of being racist everytime they turn around, while most of them feel no ill will at all towards their fellow (wo)man.

Which leads me to the other point, calling out people as racist is supposed to something of a Big Deal, reserved for actual, you know, racism.  Nowadays we use it for something like when Biden called Obama "articulate."  You can only play that card so many times before it stops being worth anything.

Kris

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2017, 10:05:55 AM »
I'll agree that it's a good thing that we change and (hopefully) become more respectful of people as time goes on.

I'll tell a story about myself that I think of quite often these days. I've known my husband for a little over ten years. When I first met him, his daughter was 13 or so. I am an educated, left-of-center white woman who has been for gay rights and for legalizing gay marriage since the early eighties, when I was a teenager. So, pretty "progressive," I suppose, as far as it goes.

Well, I remember about eight years ago, somehow my husband or I stumbled across a website called "Tranny or Granny." It basically was an online quiz with a really goofy theme song, where it would put up two pictures side by side. One was of a "masculine"-looking older woman, the other was (ostensibly) of a trans woman who was not particularly attractive. You had to guess which was the "tranny" and which was the "granny."

I remember laughing a lot about that site. And even playing it with my stepdaughter, who would have been about fifteen or sixteen at the time.


I share this because I look back on this now in absolute horror that I would have been so willing to laugh at either of these "groups" that the site was making fun of. And at the time it felt... I don't know, off-color, but not that big a deal. The thought that eight years ago, I could laugh at the pain of individuals who have likely suffered publicly and privately for most of their lives because they aren't what people see as attractive and "normal" -- I am filled with shame every time I remember it. It reminds me that I still have enormous blind spots, and that respect is something that all people deserve. And if it were not for the increased visibility of activism for trans people, I probably would still be blind to my callousness.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 10:07:59 AM by Kris »

golden1

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2017, 11:24:38 AM »
Quote
Because at some point we stop being respectful and we start tripping over each other to not offend, and everything becomes so bland and meaningful dialogue ceases. 

Someone made the comment in one of the threads (maybe "what's happening in the country?") about how vast swaths of the country has been labeled racist for just asking about certain things, or for not understanding where the current political winds are blowing, and it has just gotten to the point where those people shut down now because they're so tired of being accused of being racist everytime they turn around, while most of them feel no ill will at all towards their fellow (wo)man.

If someone from the demographic in question says "Hey knock it off."  it is just plain rude to insist on your own way because you fear being "bland".  I have never felt limited in conversation or dialogue due to political correctness.  If anything, it forces me to think through my positions a little deeper. 

I will reiterate.  The problem isn't that we are being too respectful.  The problem is that we view being politically incorrect as a fate worse than death, not just an oops moment.  People need to take the whole thing less seriously - if someone says something you don't like, they aren't evil.  They just don't know. 

Lagom

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2017, 11:39:23 AM »
I agree with a lot of what golden1 and nereo are saying, but also fall on the side of being bothered by the very real political correctness creep that is trending towards looking for things to be offended by in some circles (although I think this trend is not as widespread as many conservatives think and is in the process of reversing in some ways). Some of you seem to be arguing that it is impossible to be too politically correct, similar to how it's impossible to be too compassionate, but those are not really comparable, imo.

That said, when I referenced the topic, I was referring to  the most annoying offenders:

That's the other thing that pisses me off, it seems as though there are groups of Perpetually Offended out there who just grasp as stuff to be offended by *on behalf of other groups*. 

And I think this is the crux of my own issue with the topic. Is it a slippery slope? Yes. And nereo's point about someone saying "they didn't mean it that way" is a good example of that slope. But manufactured outrage by white people on behalf of other cultures who by all appearances are not themselves offended? Somewhere in there the line gets more than a little fuzzy.

To rephrase, what I personally find annoying about the PC police is the same thing I find annoying about people who "mansplain" or "whitesplain." But if someone tells me they are offended by something I said, even if I think they are being too sensitive, agree 100% that the only correct response on my part is to apologize sincerely.

I will reiterate.  The problem isn't that we are being too respectful.  The problem is that we view being politically incorrect as a fate worse than death, not just an oops moment.  People need to take the whole thing less seriously - if someone says something you don't like, they aren't evil.  They just don't know.

This is right on.

Malloy

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2017, 11:54:50 AM »
I'm a liberal, but I am very against the follow types of local/state/federal overreach:

1. Eminent domain abuse
2.  Asset forfeiture abuse

 As usual, I'm so confused in Trump's America, because I thought that these were typically right-leaning concerns?

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-sheriff-asset-forfeiture-texas-234740



nereo

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2017, 12:14:09 PM »

 As usual, I'm so confused in Trump's America, because I thought that these were typically right-leaning concerns?

I share this sentiment.  I've considered myself somewhat of a centrist, and have believed for a long time that 'traditional' republican positions have a lot of merit.  Lately though I keep asking myself "what do Republican Trumpests believe in?"
Near as I can figure Trump and traditional GOPers are at odds over:
Free Trade
The size of the federal government
The power of the executive branch
Our military alliances (prime example: NATO)
Health Care "for everyone"
SSI and Medicare
Deficit spending
States rights
Russia

RangerOne

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #77 on: February 07, 2017, 12:25:01 PM »
I am generally center left so Ill just list a few areas off the top of my head where I think Republicans are on the right track. I often find that though I agree with a party platform, I rarely agree with the approach they take. Both the parties are just awful at separating good ideological goals and  being corporate shills.

- Cut regulations. There is likely a lot of dead weight regs that need to go, but I am pro environmental protection so I think Repubs sometimes abuse this sentiment to kill good regulations. But in general we are over regulated.

- Tax reform. 

- Immigration reform, I think it is smaller problem than the base makes it out to be, but they way we handle illegal immigration is long overdue for some improvement to be as fair as possible to tax payers and immigrants competing for entry to the US.

I am sure there are a few more. Policy wise I tend to agree with about half of what Republicans say and maybe 80-90% of what Democrats say. I think that number would shift dramatically if Republicans actually fought for smaller government and less spending across the board as opposed to just diverting social funds and regulatory funds to defense and tax cuts for the wealthy.

Also that 80-90% number doesn't really translate to what Democrats do in office since often there actions don't fully align with their rhetoric.



saijoe

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2017, 01:34:21 PM »
As I read through this thread, I'm reminded of something Gary Johnson said. To paraphrase, the majority of Americans are libertarian, they just don't know it. 

I lean pretty far right, but I say legalize pot and gay marriage. 

Also, I hate the idea of an abortion, but it's not my business. With that said, I do respect the idea that the dividing line for abortion is when you believe that thing growing inside of a woman's body is a life.  People who only posit that the woman's body is the only concern are not respecting that.  But I just think this needs to stay out of the political mainstream.  There's no changing people's mind, either way. 

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #79 on: February 07, 2017, 01:49:21 PM »
I agree with a lot of what golden1 and nereo are saying, but also fall on the side of being bothered by the very real political correctness creep that is trending towards looking for things to be offended by in some circles (although I think this trend is not as widespread as many conservatives think and is in the process of reversing in some ways). Some of you seem to be arguing that it is impossible to be too politically correct, similar to how it's impossible to be too compassionate, but those are not really comparable, imo.

That said, when I referenced the topic, I was referring to  the most annoying offenders:

That's the other thing that pisses me off, it seems as though there are groups of Perpetually Offended out there who just grasp as stuff to be offended by *on behalf of other groups*. 

And I think this is the crux of my own issue with the topic. Is it a slippery slope? Yes. And nereo's point about someone saying "they didn't mean it that way" is a good example of that slope. But manufactured outrage by white people on behalf of other cultures who by all appearances are not themselves offended? Somewhere in there the line gets more than a little fuzzy.

To rephrase, what I personally find annoying about the PC police is the same thing I find annoying about people who "mansplain" or "whitesplain." But if someone tells me they are offended by something I said, even if I think they are being too sensitive, agree 100% that the only correct response on my part is to apologize sincerely.

I will reiterate.  The problem isn't that we are being too respectful.  The problem is that we view being politically incorrect as a fate worse than death, not just an oops moment.  People need to take the whole thing less seriously - if someone says something you don't like, they aren't evil.  They just don't know.

This is right on.

Lagom, Chris22, and golden1, ya'll hit the nail on the head! Thank you for putting into words exactly what was thinking.

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2017, 02:27:27 PM »
As I read through this thread, I'm reminded of something Gary Johnson said. To paraphrase, the majority of Americans are libertarian, they just don't know it. 

I lean pretty far right, but I say legalize pot and gay marriage. 

Also, I hate the idea of an abortion, but it's not my business. With that said, I do respect the idea that the dividing line for abortion is when you believe that thing growing inside of a woman's body is a life.  People who only posit that the woman's body is the only concern are not respecting that.  But I just think this needs to stay out of the political mainstream.  There's no changing people's mind, either way.
So you are ok with your bodily autonomy being ignored to keep other people alive, or is just women who lose bodily autonomy to save another?  In this attitude you say, fetuses have more right to life than born humans and pregnant women have less rights than a corpse.  I do respect it is a life, I just realize I still (should) have bodily autonomy. 

Midwest

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2017, 02:31:24 PM »
As I read through this thread, I'm reminded of something Gary Johnson said. To paraphrase, the majority of Americans are libertarian, they just don't know it. 

I lean pretty far right, but I say legalize pot and gay marriage. 

Also, I hate the idea of an abortion, but it's not my business. With that said, I do respect the idea that the dividing line for abortion is when you believe that thing growing inside of a woman's body is a life.  People who only posit that the woman's body is the only concern are not respecting that.  But I just think this needs to stay out of the political mainstream.  There's no changing people's mind, either way.
So you are ok with your bodily autonomy being ignored to keep other people alive, or is just women who lose bodily autonomy to save another?  In this attitude you say, fetuses have more right to life than born humans and pregnant women have less rights than a corpse.  I do respect it is a life, I just realize I still (should) have bodily autonomy.

I think this thread is about unexpected agreement versus debate.

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2017, 02:41:15 PM »
As I read through this thread, I'm reminded of something Gary Johnson said. To paraphrase, the majority of Americans are libertarian, they just don't know it. 

I lean pretty far right, but I say legalize pot and gay marriage. 

Also, I hate the idea of an abortion, but it's not my business. With that said, I do respect the idea that the dividing line for abortion is when you believe that thing growing inside of a woman's body is a life.  People who only posit that the woman's body is the only concern are not respecting that.  But I just think this needs to stay out of the political mainstream.  There's no changing people's mind, either way.
So you are ok with your bodily autonomy being ignored to keep other people alive, or is just women who lose bodily autonomy to save another?  In this attitude you say, fetuses have more right to life than born humans and pregnant women have less rights than a corpse.  I do respect it is a life, I just realize I still (should) have bodily autonomy.

I think this thread is about unexpected agreement versus debate.
+1.

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2017, 03:08:32 PM »
As I read through this thread, I'm reminded of something Gary Johnson said. To paraphrase, the majority of Americans are libertarian, they just don't know it. 

I lean pretty far right, but I say legalize pot and gay marriage. 

Also, I hate the idea of an abortion, but it's not my business. With that said, I do respect the idea that the dividing line for abortion is when you believe that thing growing inside of a woman's body is a life.  People who only posit that the woman's body is the only concern are not respecting that.  But I just think this needs to stay out of the political mainstream.  There's no changing people's mind, either way.
So you are ok with your bodily autonomy being ignored to keep other people alive, or is just women who lose bodily autonomy to save another?  In this attitude you say, fetuses have more right to life than born humans and pregnant women have less rights than a corpse.  I do respect it is a life, I just realize I still (should) have bodily autonomy.

I think this thread is about unexpected agreement versus debate.
Well, it was nice while it lasted...

neo von retorch

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2017, 03:34:03 PM »
Quote
There's no changing people's mind, either way.

Therefore - don't debate it.

Norioch

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2017, 03:58:33 PM »
On most issues I'm pretty liberal, but I think raising the minimum wage is misguided and a bad idea. I think nowadays everything is moving towards automation, and raising the minimum wage would only accelerate that process and eliminate more jobs. However, I support UBI in place of minimum wage laws, and I think most conservatives would strongly oppose UBI.

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2017, 05:39:28 PM »
I'll bite, since I was interested enough (or bored enough) to read through all responses so far.

I'm pretty progressive socially, however I agree that identity politics is getting ridiculous. As much as people on the right claim it's purely a lefty issue, so many of them have also formed their identities around aspects of their identity that define them. I'm a gun owner. I'm a Christian. They're just as bad as people on the left who reduce their identities to one defining characteristic and fight on behalf of that group. It shuts down all discussion on such topics and allows people to glom onto it even harder, which is not a good thing. Fundamentalism in most things is not a good idea.
Being respectful and polite is not "political correctness", in my mind. It's being a decent human.

I agree that guns are not inherently evil. That would be silly, as we have two (for hunting). However, I think there do need to be some regulations surrounding them. People who abuse their families should not be able to go buy a gun, they're already unstable and violent. Same with other people who are unstable and have a history of violence. The risk is too high. Also, I'm not sure how to address this appropriately, but there needs to be some way to keep kids from getting guns. There are far too many instances of kids getting ahold of their parents' guns and shooting someone else or themselves. That shouldn't happen.
I disagree with the people on the right who get absolutely rabid about guns. Tone it down, dude.

I think there needs to be some sort of welfare system but think our current one is ridiculous. I'd much rather go with UBI.

Can agree that some regulations are total shit. But, the most onerous ones are put in place to benefit Congress's corporate overlords (both sides are guilty) and keep small businesses down. The ones that don't do that? The environmental regulations that are always on the chopping block. Oy. So short-sighted and, frankly, stupid to destroy the environment we depend on for everything.

Agree that most subsidies should be taken away, particularly those for factory farming and fossil fuels. There's no fucking way they need subsidies.

Yes, tax code should be simplified and progressive. Also, HUGE disincentives for offshoring/hiding money. Fuck that, it helps build dynasties, corruption, and dishonesty.

Yes to more technical trade schools and whatnot. Not everyone needs or wants a college degree, and I don't see plumbers having their jobs taken away by automation very soon.

Yes, the federal government should be smaller. We're such a huge and diverse nation that if  the feds try to control everything then everyone's going to be unhappy. However, human rights (marrying who you want, healthcare, etc.) belong everywhere and environment crosses state lines, so those are things that should be legislated in. In addition, I think some things like worker safety standards should also be kept nationally.

Where I will never agree with the right:

Abortion. No, that parasite's right to live ends at my right to bodily autonomy. If a woman can't or just doesn't want to carry it, so be it. It doesn't matter the reason. And despite what people hysterically claim, no one gets an abortion just for fun. Those much-maligned third trimester abortions are already solely for severe birth defects or when the mother's life is in danger. As a woman who's been pregnant, no one makes it that far and goes, "Nah, I'm done with this." And if she did, I really wouldn't want to force her into parenthood.

Science. This ridiculous anti-science, anti-intellectual bullshit. When did it become okay to be proud of being kind of dumb and uneducated? When did your "belief" in a 6,000 year old Earth become more important than facts and reality? Yeah, believe whatever the hell you want. That's religion and has no place in our federal government per the Constitution you claim to love. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. Your right to your beliefs ends at yourself. You do not get to make or influence policy due to "belief". Have some actual facts and science to back it up or GTFO.

The idea that other people should be left entirely to their own devices and that everyone is responsible only to his/herself. That ignores that there are huge discrepancies in everything from intelligence to upbringing and resources. A kid who grew up eating McDonald's and Mac 'n Cheese when she got a meal, indifferent or absent parents, is going to grow up very differently from me with my three squares and supportive parents. I don't think those people should be looked down upon. But, this also goes back to my idea of UBI.

That being said...I'm so sick of people whining that "their" region is in decline. There are often historical and even ecological reasons why. Yep, the coal industry is dying. That's proving to be a good thing for human health. If your small town is dying, maybe it should? Maybe try moving to find a better job? Turning back the clock is not going to happen, so stop trying to force it. The world moves on. Industries change. Deal with it. Find something better to do than whining about "the good old days" and blaming others for your problems. I roll my eyes every time I see someone talking about "personal responsibility" who then turns around and blames others (immigrants, The Man, whatever) for keeping them down. Uh, no. You're doing a fine job of that yourself by looking backwards instead of forward.

There are others, but this is too long already and skews more toward "what don't you agree with the other side about". :)

GetSmart

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2017, 06:49:53 PM »
I agree with just about every word of this ^^

Paul der Krake

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2017, 07:58:45 PM »
Things I think "the left" takes too far:

- seeing systemic issues everywhere
- the inability to admit that some cultures promote shit habits
- some of the whiny rhetoric around inequality



oldtoyota

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2017, 08:21:49 PM »

Abortion - why is this still a debate?  it's legal.  I'm with Billy Clinton: safe, legal, rare



I guess you've missed a few things in the news...

waltworks

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2017, 09:33:03 PM »
I'm going to go out on a limb and point out something that I *disagree* with both sides on.

Evidence. And using it to make decisions.

Yes, vaccines are safe. No amount of organic food and meditation will prevent measles, you twits. No amount of hand waving or appeals to Jebus will make evolution or climate change go away. And you're not going solve climate change by driving a Prius or eating more vegetables - the math says it was too late for that about 50 years ago. Nuclear power would help but radiation is just so scary!

Everyone on the right and on the left wants to be an expert on stuff they know nothing about. I'm a statistician, but I'm not a biochemist or a medical doctor or an agronomist, so I generally take those people's recommendations seriously even if I don't agree for political or practical reasons with them. Experts are experts for a reason. It doesn't mean they're always right - but it means they're much more likely to be right than you, or your friends on Facebook, or some random person/bot on Twitter. But you found something on the internet that says otherwise? Guess what, you can find *anything* on the internet, no matter how nonsensical. If it's not from a long-established source (let's say, 50 years or more) with a history of credibility, it's garbage.

What's that? That article in Nature was wrong/retracted? Well whoop-de-doo. Yes, even the best make mistakes. That doesn't mean you abandon the folks that literally built the world you live in and go live in your internet alternate universe. It means you shrug and say, "shit happens, good thing those guys get it right most of the time and are doing their best" and you keep reading JAMA or the NYT or Science and you vow to punch Andrew Wakefield in the nuts if you ever see him on the street. Same for Al Gore.

Using evidence and science is why we're able to have this conversation on our computers. You're living at the best possible time to be alive as a human because of all those people who did their best and made mistakes but fixed them and kept looking at the evidence and letting it guide them.

Longevity is up. Poverty is down. Progress continues, and you can see it clearly if you look at the evidence. The world is a better place than it's ever been, as long as we don't screw it up by letting the noise drown out the signal. Want to keep that progress going? Fund the crap out of the folks that make it happen and let the chips fall where they may, because reality doesn't care about your hangups.

-W
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 09:38:33 PM by waltworks »

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2017, 09:46:06 PM »
^+1

The strange thing is I once found that exact statement in a fortune cookie!

Metric Mouse

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2017, 12:49:47 AM »
^+1

The strange thing is I once found that exact statement in a fortune cookie!
One thing I think everyone can agree with - shab tra is amazing, especially when served with fortune cookies.

Chris22

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2017, 07:27:18 AM »

Abortion - why is this still a debate?  it's legal.  I'm with Billy Clinton: safe, legal, rare



I guess you've missed a few things in the news...

Not sure what you mean by this?

SisterX

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2017, 10:45:38 AM »
I thought of one more that's neither right nor left but...some sort of test for voter eligibility. You should be able to understand the basic structure of our government to vote. There should be an even more stringent one for anyone running for office, tailored to that office. Education boards should understand a few basic principles of education, president should be able to understand the basic concepts of checks and balances.... You get the idea. I want a smart populace and I want the smart people to be the ones running things, even if I disagree with them on a fundamental level. People in this country, all people, should understand the basics of government. If you can't be bothered to learn it, don't bother voting. You're doing everyone a disservice.

Military and civil service could also be a good stand-in for taking such a test, although I've known plenty of stupid military people. (Hey, I used to live in a military town.) But if you're willing to fight and die and kill for your country, fine. Vote even if you're less intelligent than one would hope.

How many people did I just piss off with this post?

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2017, 10:51:03 AM »
I thought of one more that's neither right nor left but...some sort of test for voter eligibility. You should be able to understand the basic structure of our government to vote. There should be an even more stringent one for anyone running for office, tailored to that office. Education boards should understand a few basic principles of education, president should be able to understand the basic concepts of checks and balances.... You get the idea. I want a smart populace and I want the smart people to be the ones running things, even if I disagree with them on a fundamental level. People in this country, all people, should understand the basics of government. If you can't be bothered to learn it, don't bother voting. You're doing everyone a disservice.

Military and civil service could also be a good stand-in for taking such a test, although I've known plenty of stupid military people. (Hey, I used to live in a military town.) But if you're willing to fight and die and kill for your country, fine. Vote even if you're less intelligent than one would hope.

How many people did I just piss off with this post?

I agree with all the points you highlighted. I just have no earthly idea how to keep any sort of voter restriction from instantly becoming based on income. I'm not that smart.

Midwest

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2017, 10:53:56 AM »
I thought of one more that's neither right nor left but...some sort of test for voter eligibility. You should be able to understand the basic structure of our government to vote. There should be an even more stringent one for anyone running for office, tailored to that office. Education boards should understand a few basic principles of education, president should be able to understand the basic concepts of checks and balances.... You get the idea. I want a smart populace and I want the smart people to be the ones running things, even if I disagree with them on a fundamental level. People in this country, all people, should understand the basics of government. If you can't be bothered to learn it, don't bother voting. You're doing everyone a disservice.

Military and civil service could also be a good stand-in for taking such a test, although I've known plenty of stupid military people. (Hey, I used to live in a military town.) But if you're willing to fight and die and kill for your country, fine. Vote even if you're less intelligent than one would hope.

How many people did I just piss off with this post?

I agree with all the points you highlighted. I just have no earthly idea how to keep any sort of voter restriction from instantly becoming based on income. I'm not that smart.

Wouldn't those sort of voter restrictions require an ID?

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2017, 11:10:33 AM »
I thought of one more that's neither right nor left but...some sort of test for voter eligibility. You should be able to understand the basic structure of our government to vote. There should be an even more stringent one for anyone running for office, tailored to that office. Education boards should understand a few basic principles of education, president should be able to understand the basic concepts of checks and balances.... You get the idea. I want a smart populace and I want the smart people to be the ones running things, even if I disagree with them on a fundamental level. People in this country, all people, should understand the basics of government. If you can't be bothered to learn it, don't bother voting. You're doing everyone a disservice.

Military and civil service could also be a good stand-in for taking such a test, although I've known plenty of stupid military people. (Hey, I used to live in a military town.) But if you're willing to fight and die and kill for your country, fine. Vote even if you're less intelligent than one would hope.

How many people did I just piss off with this post?

On the voting thing, I understand where you're coming from. Reading about how many Trump voters hate Obamacare but like the ACA is enough to make me want a basic test of some sort to be able to vote.

Unfortunately, in practice, there's no way to do it fairly or have it not devolve into some way to disenfranchise voters. So, I'm just left shaking my head and wishing people actually cared enough about voting knowledgeably.

ooeei

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2017, 11:38:51 AM »
I suppose if I had to pick one I'd say I lean right, I tend left on the following (not so small) points:

  • Single payer healthcare is where we should be going
  • The environment needs to be protected
  • Gay marriage is fine
  • Legalize it already
  • I'll call you whatever pronoun you want to be called, but I get a few mulligans
  • A wall between here and Mexico is ridiculous
  • Separation of church and state is very important
  • I wouldn't say I'm "pro abortion" (not many people are I don't think), but I don't think it should be illegal or inaccessible, and birth control and sex education should be easily available.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 11:41:42 AM by ooeei »

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Re: On what issue(s) do you agree with the "other" political party?
« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2017, 12:15:37 PM »
I thought of one more that's neither right nor left but...some sort of test for voter eligibility. You should be able to understand the basic structure of our government to vote. There should be an even more stringent one for anyone running for office, tailored to that office. Education boards should understand a few basic principles of education, president should be able to understand the basic concepts of checks and balances.... You get the idea. I want a smart populace and I want the smart people to be the ones running things, even if I disagree with them on a fundamental level. People in this country, all people, should understand the basics of government. If you can't be bothered to learn it, don't bother voting. You're doing everyone a disservice.

Military and civil service could also be a good stand-in for taking such a test, although I've known plenty of stupid military people. (Hey, I used to live in a military town.) But if you're willing to fight and die and kill for your country, fine. Vote even if you're less intelligent than one would hope.

How many people did I just piss off with this post?

On the voting thing, I understand where you're coming from. Reading about how many Trump voters hate Obamacare but like the ACA is enough to make me want a basic test of some sort to be able to vote.

Unfortunately, in practice, there's no way to do it fairly or have it not devolve into some way to disenfranchise voters. So, I'm just left shaking my head and wishing people actually cared enough about voting knowledgeably.

Oh, I definitely agree. My suggestion is incredibly flawed and problematic. If there was a better way then I'd be working on actually getting support for it. As it is, it's got as many problems as voting based on wealth.

If we were going to do something like this, it would have to be publicly funded and things like time off for voting, taking the test, civic engagement, blah blah, would have to be supported as well. I don't see things like that happening any time soon, especially not since it wouldn't benefit those already in power. It's like term limits. You need to start that shit at the beginning of the revolution, not partway into your project.