Author Topic: Old Bernie is Running  (Read 9361 times)

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #150 on: May 02, 2019, 04:08:43 PM »
Bernie is such a crotchety old geezer, he makes me feel young.  And I'm not young.

Though with a doddering Joe Biden also running (he was getting confused during his announcement speech-that's not a good sign, though not unexpected given his age), Bernie is a "youth movement." :)

Other than their characteristics of being older than you, is there message bad?  Both these people have long experience.  Much of it has been in touting policies to help the common good.

sherr

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #151 on: May 02, 2019, 04:26:56 PM »
Bernie is such a crotchety old geezer, he makes me feel young.  And I'm not young.

Though with a doddering Joe Biden also running (he was getting confused during his announcement speech-that's not a good sign, though not unexpected given his age), Bernie is a "youth movement." :)

Other than their characteristics of being older than you, is there message bad?  Both these people have long experience.  Much of it has been in touting policies to help the common good.

Come on. If elected, either Sanders or Biden would be the Oldest President Ever Elected. Not to mention Oldest President Ever Elected To A First Term.

Age-related mental decline is a real thing. Just look at our current president. It has nothing to do with "being older than you".

Edit: Okay, in libertarian4321's case it's probably mostly Trolling. But it's still a real concern.

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #152 on: May 02, 2019, 04:31:18 PM »
Age related discrimination is also a very real thing.  I've watched both of these potential presidential candidates and both of them  seem to demonstrate a large degree of mental accuity.

sherr

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #153 on: May 02, 2019, 04:34:51 PM »
Age related discrimination is also a very real thing.  I've watched both of these potential presidential candidates and both of them  seem to demonstrate a large degree of mental accuity.

Age discrimination is also illegal, and also specifically does not include being forced to retire. Usually at around 65 or so.

I like both Sanders and Biden. But there's no getting around the fact that they are old. So is Trump for that matter, so if they are his eventual opponents it may not make much of a difference. But still old.

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #154 on: May 02, 2019, 04:48:30 PM »
The United States is old.  The Earth is old.  The moon is old.  They are all still good and I expect will be good for the next 4 years. 

Let's hope these guys are good for 4 more too and at least give them a chance.  They may do well in their last rodeo.

Dabnasty

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #155 on: May 02, 2019, 09:30:29 PM »
The United States is old.  The Earth is old.  The moon is old.  They are all still good and I expect will be good for the next 4 years. 

Let's hope these guys are good for 4 more too and at least give them a chance.  They may do well in their last rodeo.

Those things don't suffer mental decline due to old age. They're not people :)

Mental decline can happen rapidly and unexpectedly in old age. We should also take into consideration that the older someone is the greater their chance of suddenly becoming ill and/or dying. These things aren't a fault of the individual, they're just reality. For a position as important as the presidency I don't care about fairness or age discrimination, I want the best available person for the position.

LennStar

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #156 on: May 03, 2019, 12:59:27 AM »
Age related discrimination is also a very real thing.  I've watched both of these potential presidential candidates and both of them  seem to demonstrate a large degree of mental accuity.

Age discrimination is also illegal, and also specifically does not include being forced to retire. Usually at around 65 or so.

I like both Sanders and Biden. But there's no getting around the fact that they are old. So is Trump for that matter, so if they are his eventual opponents it may not make much of a difference. But still old.

Nobody forces you to retire. You have a chance there getting help, but that is all.

The same goes for old age: There are people who get senile. Most of them are old. But neither all nor everyone.

If age was really a problem, every constitution around the world would have a maximum voting age, like minimum voting age, right? (Yes, I know the true reason is because they are mostly written by old men ;) )

Nick_Miller

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #157 on: May 03, 2019, 06:43:10 AM »
If he won, Bernie Sanders would be 79 come inauguration day, 2021. He would then have a life expectancy of 8 years. (With Biden, it's 78 and 9, so really the same)

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html

Do we really want to cut it that close, statistically speaking? And that's just death! It doesn't count for mental decline. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of stories of old people being on the top of their game one day and then dropping dead the next, but generally speaking you're going to see some decline in those last years.

I don't dislike Bernie or Biden (hell I supported Bernie in 2016), but four years makes a big difference at these ages, and this year, unlike in 2016, we have a ton of more youthful candidates to select from.


pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #158 on: May 03, 2019, 06:45:38 PM »
It's hard to argue against facts.  Either one of these guys could be the victim of senility.  Right now, I thought they both looked pretty good.

I tried to think of another president who was old.  The only one i could think of was Ronald Reagan.  There have been many claims that he suffered from senility while in the White House.

There are a lot of better candidates running this time.  (Well, maybe not Donald.)  One of the remarkable things to note is that they are promulgating Bernie's "radical" ideas from 2016.  So, in a way even if he isn't the anointed one, he'll still win.

I listened to Joe Biden's speech and picked on the "Health Care is a Right."  Sounded quite familiar.

If he isn't selected, he's still a Senator and will still do a lot of good.

maizeman

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #159 on: May 03, 2019, 07:06:36 PM »
I mean dementia onset rates start climbing even in people's 60s. If you assume the potential two term presidency and you want to be really safe about who you give the nuclear codes to you could easily make an argument for focusing on candidates at or below 50 when the race for the nomination for president starts a couple of years before anyone is finally going to take office. That'd leave us with just Booker,* OíRourke, Castro, Yang, Buttigieg, and Gabbard.

Note, I'm not making this argument. Just pointing out that if you are going to worry about the age of the nominee vis-a-vis ability to remain mentally competent for 4 or 8 years, there are many more folks to worry about than just Biden and Sanders.

*Who'd be 51 at his inauguration but isn't yet. He's also probably be the first bachelor president in a rather long time. "I hate it that people assume I'd be a bachelor president. It's literally 700 days from now. You never know."

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #160 on: May 03, 2019, 07:13:09 PM »
I guess I have to like what they stand for too.

I've liked what Tulsi Gabbard says, but her website does not seem chock'o'block full of what she stands for.

https://www.tulsi2020.com/

Getting out of these crazy wars sounds pretty good to me.

maizeman

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #161 on: May 03, 2019, 07:24:54 PM »
Yeah of those six I'd be varying degrees of happy with five as the eventual nominee and I think the same five would do a fine job as president.

Gabbard is too cozy with Bashar al-Assad for my taste.

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #162 on: May 04, 2019, 05:07:03 PM »
She talked to him.  Is that cozy?

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/10/tulsi-gabbard-assad-syria-1214882

She was a soldier.  She is a Senator.  Maybe she is right that there is an entrenched group in our government that is saber happy.  It does seem as though there are some public officials who want to shoot first and ask the questions later or maybe never.

Seems like they set Colin Powell up with some bad info in front of the UN a few years back.

All that money spent on overseas wars could have fixed a lot of potholes.

maizeman

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #163 on: May 04, 2019, 05:21:19 PM »
She was a soldier.  She is a Senator.  Maybe she is right that there is an entrenched group in our government that is saber happy.  It does seem as though there are some public officials who want to shoot first and ask the questions later or maybe never.

While a great deal of your post is hard to falsify so we may each have to accept that we perceive the world differently, I can say when a great deal of confidence that Tulsi Gabbard is not a senator nor has she been on in the past.

Edit, with regard to the Syria issue, obviously different people are going to have different judgements on how good or bad her actions are, but I think it is misleading to summarize those actions as simply meeting with al-Assad.

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By way of background, Rep. Gabbardís trip has proven controversial for a number of reasons: She reportedly declined to inform House leadership in advance, met with Bashar al-Assad, toured with officials from a Lebanese political party that actively supports Assad, and received funding from an American organization that counts one of those same officials as its executive director. Moreover, both before and after traveling to Syria, the congresswoman channeled some of Assadís positions on the war in statements to the public.

Source: https://www.lawfareblog.com/legal-analysis-rep-tulsi-gabbards-trip-syria
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 05:26:26 PM by maizeman »

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #164 on: May 04, 2019, 06:24:22 PM »
It could be misleading as I'm not one to follow the news as closely as others.  I read your link.  From the link:

"Will anything come of this? In theory, the House could impose disciplinary measures, but Rep. Gabbardís trip doesnít seem to be the type of conduct that warrants anything close to a severe response. Yes, she circumvented congressional leadership. And yes, she met with a notorious war criminal. But she appears to have been driven by genuine concern about U.S. policy and the conditions in Syria, rather than self-aggrandizement or other improper motives. The Committee on Standards of Official Conduct might conceivably issue a letter of reproval or informally communicate an objection, but itís hard to envision much more than that."

It doesn't bother me that she had a talk with a foreign leader.  It may be a good thing that she had an independent talk.  It may be a bad thing.  I don't know.

I don't think she is going to get very far in the Presidential primaries, but I like the anti war message.  I've talked to ex military people who have been to the middle east and they seem to be as confused about why we are there as I am.

How about Joe, the Democratic front-runner?

He doesn't have time to explain his health care plan.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/joe-biden-healthcare-2020-campaign-bernie-sanders-elizabeth-warren-a8898926.html

Maybe it will be the same "terrific" one our president spoke of.

The guy has been in the political arena a long time.  Where's the man with the plan?

pecunia

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LennStar

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #166 on: May 20, 2019, 01:55:37 AM »
Charter Schools?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/18/18630435/bernie-sanders-charter-schools-2020-presidential-candidates-policies

I really don't know about this.

It's easy: Charter school are those where the rich(er) people can bring their children so that they can withheld money from public schools without hurting themselves. The system also keeps away unfitting (aka non-white) friends from their children.

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #167 on: May 20, 2019, 07:29:04 PM »
Charter Schools?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/18/18630435/bernie-sanders-charter-schools-2020-presidential-candidates-policies

I really don't know about this.

It's easy: Charter school are those where the rich(er) people can bring their children so that they can withheld money from public schools without hurting themselves. The system also keeps away unfitting (aka non-white) friends from their children.

OK - So it continues the ongoing trend of dividing society.  I guess it helps kids to get the "right" kind of education.  So, it's a bit like the private schools rich folks send their kids to.  I get it.

MDM

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #168 on: May 20, 2019, 08:41:45 PM »
Charter Schools?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/18/18630435/bernie-sanders-charter-schools-2020-presidential-candidates-policies

I really don't know about this.

It's easy: Charter school are those where the rich(er) people can bring their children so that they can withheld money from public schools without hurting themselves. The system also keeps away unfitting (aka non-white) friends from their children.

Easy but not correct, at least in some states.  E.g., https://lacharterschools.org/about-charter-schools/:
Quote
Charter school students have similar demographic characteristics to students in all public schools in Louisiana, but charter schools serve a larger percentage of economically disadvantaged students and black students.

LennStar

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #169 on: May 21, 2019, 02:17:23 AM »
Charter Schools?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/18/18630435/bernie-sanders-charter-schools-2020-presidential-candidates-policies

I really don't know about this.

It's easy: Charter school are those where the rich(er) people can bring their children so that they can withheld money from public schools without hurting themselves. The system also keeps away unfitting (aka non-white) friends from their children.

Easy but not correct, at least in some states.  E.g., https://lacharterschools.org/about-charter-schools/:
Quote
Charter school students have similar demographic characteristics to students in all public schools in Louisiana, but charter schools serve a larger percentage of economically disadvantaged students and black students.

The source about charter schools is a charter school association? hm...
Also Loisiana is the worst example because of the after-Katrina specialities.

Anyway, Charter Schools are privately managed schools with less rules than normal schools (and which are at least partially exploited for profit).
They are often founded by parents who want to do something different to normal public schools. We can debate wether this is good or bad (not teaching evolution or sex ed), but the thing is that it does lead to fueling the circle of underpaid public schools -> privatization -> more underpayment (because there are charter schools, so we don't need to pay public schools, right?)
Also charter schools tend to be in certain areas, which alone creates a sort of bias.

In short, charter schools do not improve education (on average) while they introduce several (possible) problem points on an already burdened school system. 
The same effort put into normal public schools should yield better results.

MDM

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #170 on: May 21, 2019, 09:47:18 AM »
The source about charter schools is a charter school association? hm...
Actually, the source for the demographics in that article is "2015 student enrollment counts from the Louisiana Department of Education."

Dabnasty

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #171 on: May 21, 2019, 10:13:16 AM »
Charter Schools?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/18/18630435/bernie-sanders-charter-schools-2020-presidential-candidates-policies

I really don't know about this.

It's easy: Charter school are those where the rich(er) people can bring their children so that they can withheld money from public schools without hurting themselves. The system also keeps away unfitting (aka non-white) friends from their children.

Easy but not correct, at least in some states.  E.g., https://lacharterschools.org/about-charter-schools/:
Quote
Charter school students have similar demographic characteristics to students in all public schools in Louisiana, but charter schools serve a larger percentage of economically disadvantaged students and black students.

Just because the statewide demographics are similar between charter and other public schools doesn't mean that each individual school is diverse.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/04/15/white-parents-in-north-carolina-are-using-charter-schools-to-secede-from-the-education-system/?utm_term=.3dee7ca36565

Louisiana probably isn't the best example considering ~90% of public school students attend a charter school in New Orleans which in turn accounts for over half of the charter school students in the state.

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2014/05/30/317374739/new-orleans-district-moves-to-an-all-charter-system
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 10:20:00 AM by Dabnasty »

Dabnasty

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #172 on: May 21, 2019, 10:14:12 AM »
The source about charter schools is a charter school association? hm...
Actually, the source for the demographics in that article is "2015 student enrollment counts from the Louisiana Department of Education."

I don't think the suggestion was that the data was false, rather it has been selectively presented.

MDM

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #173 on: May 21, 2019, 10:43:24 AM »
The source about charter schools is a charter school association? hm...
Actually, the source for the demographics in that article is "2015 student enrollment counts from the Louisiana Department of Education."

I don't think the suggestion was that the data was false, rather it has been selectively presented.
What would you suggest as an unselective way to present it?

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #174 on: June 08, 2019, 03:03:46 PM »
So Bernie is going to make a speech defending "Democratic Socialism."

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/447574-sanders-to-give-speech-defending-democratic-socialism

I don't see it as a big deal.  I guess the big money interests don't like him.  He gave a talk at the annual Wal-Mart stockholders meeting asking them to pay their employees a living wage.  I think he was kind of ignored.  Why should they raise the pay?  He is asking them to respond to maybe a higher set of moral standards.  Business people today abide by the law and do not take money out of their pocket for expenses when they don't have to.

I doubt whether Bernie's effort will have any impact on their bottom line.  There will be no lawsuits filed.  The subsidies received by their employees from the Federal government allows them another opportunity to keep their prices low and maintain market share.

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #175 on: June 13, 2019, 06:03:32 PM »
He gave his speech.  He said he will give a detailed explanation of what he will do.  That is the opposite of sound bites.  How will that sell?

45 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1PaKR-PaXg

v8rx7guy

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #176 on: June 24, 2019, 08:41:38 AM »

Samuel

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #177 on: June 25, 2019, 09:08:49 AM »
Bernie is now joining the forgive all student loan bandwagon:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2019/06/24/student-loans-bernie-sanders/#7ab7cca63fc2

And the Trump reelection campaign rejoices, watching their opposing party pull ever more to the left.


pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #178 on: June 25, 2019, 04:39:54 PM »
Will amnesty for student loans be a way of buying him votes?  I presume that many of those who owe the bucks are now old enough to see the benefit in it for themselves.  What's Trump offering this go-around?  I wonder if he's got anything for me.