Author Topic: Old Bernie is Running  (Read 9184 times)

ncornilsen

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #100 on: February 28, 2019, 08:50:06 AM »
Quote
I'd say Trump is probably more likely than any president we've had to refuse a peaceful transfer of power, but I'd peg the odds at wayyyy less than 1%.

Wayyy less than 1%, huh?  So like 0.2%?  If the is indeed how you feel about the probability here, does that mean you would give me 500 to 1 odds on a bet? 

So, hypothetically, if we bet $1,000 on 500:1 odds.... then if Trump doesn't peacefully transfer power, then I would get $500,000 and if he does peacefully transfer power, you would get $1,000...

$1,000... I mean, that's easy money, right?

Is there a single Trump supporter who would take that bet?  I doubt it.



Define peacefully?
If you mean that he's going to gracefully shake the hand of the next president, make some noises about how despite the campaign rhetoric he wishes him the best, etc, etc... no, I wouldn't take the bet.

If peaceful means "twitter shit storm, conspiracy theories, fake news accusations, and a bunch of noise and crazy as we know the man to be capable of from November to January... BUT ultimately leaving the office on the correct time without wrecking the place up too badly, I might take that bet.

Since I plan to vote for anyone but trump in the primaries, and will probably vote for a democrat in the general provided they aren't too far left, am I eligible to take the bet?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 09:32:10 AM by ncornilsen »

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #101 on: February 28, 2019, 09:05:23 AM »
Quote
I'd say Trump is probably more likely than any president we've had to refuse a peaceful transfer of power, but I'd peg the odds at wayyyy less than 1%.

Wayyy less than 1%, huh?  So like 0.2%?  If the is indeed how you feel about the probability here, does that mean you would give me 500 to 1 odds on a bet? 

So, hypothetically, if we bet $1,000 on 500:1 odds.... then if Trump doesn't peacefully transfer power, then I would get $500,000 and if he does peacefully transfer power, you would get $1,000...

$1,000... I mean, that's easy money, right?

Is there a single Trump supporter who would take that bet?  I doubt it.

I think you're confusing a literary device with actual quantifiable analysis.

But hell, since you asked the question, the answer is no, of course I wouldn't bet $1000 on it, because I don't have half a million dollars to pay up if I lose. I have insurance on my house for the same reason - I think the odds that it gets wiped out by a fire or a tornado are less than 1 in 1000 during my lifetime, but I still pay $1000/year for insurance, because I don't want to assume the tail-end risk.

A better question to ask would be: What would the odds have to be for me to place a bet on Trump refusing a peaceful transfer of power? I would consider a wager if you gave me 1:500 odds, but I'd keep my money if you only gave me 1:100 odds.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #102 on: February 28, 2019, 09:44:58 AM »
Define peacefully?
If you mean that he's going to gracefully shake the hand of the next president, make some noises about how despite the campaign rhetoric he wishes him the best, etc, etc... no, I wouldn't take the bet.

If peaceful means "twitter shit storm, conspiracy theories, fake news accusations, and a bunch of noise and crazy as we know the man to be capable of from November to January... BUT ultimately leaving the office on the correct time without wrecking the place up too badly, I might take that bet.

If we define "peaceful transition" as anything short of Trump staging a military coup to stay in power, I'd take that bet.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #103 on: February 28, 2019, 10:00:53 AM »
I am pretty sure all of this Trump stuff is detracting from our group adoration of Bernie.

Back to Bernie...

I watched a video of Bernie talking to rural West Virginians (Trump country) in a town hall style gathering from back in 2017. He was literally sitting in a chair with citizens sitting right beside him, just inches away, all sort of huddled together, and his major arguments (healthcare for all, free college tuition, infrastructure spending, making rich pay their fair share) all got significant applause and support from the folks there. He kept drawing comparisons between Vermont and WV, and it really seemed to earn him a lot of traction.

I'm not saying that he would win any red states (or that any Dem would), but I think he makes a better showing than most would.

Kris

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2019, 10:06:02 AM »
I hope he does a much better job of trying to connect with voters of color this time around, if he's going to actually be the nominee (which I don't actually think I want).

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2019, 10:09:02 AM »
I am pretty sure all of this Trump stuff is detracting from our group adoration of Bernie.

Back to Bernie...

I watched a video of Bernie talking to rural West Virginians (Trump country) in a town hall style gathering from back in 2017. He was literally sitting in a chair with citizens sitting right beside him, just inches away, all sort of huddled together, and his major arguments (healthcare for all, free college tuition, infrastructure spending, making rich pay their fair share) all got significant applause and support from the folks there. He kept drawing comparisons between Vermont and WV, and it really seemed to earn him a lot of traction.

I'm not saying that he would win any red states (or that any Dem would), but I think he makes a better showing than most would.

I don't think Bernie would do well at all in the South. He did horribly against Hillary in the 2016 primaries in that region, costing himself any chance at the nomination. I think if he's the nominee, he loses every southern state but VA. I do think he could make up the ground lost in the South by outperforming in the Midwest.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #106 on: February 28, 2019, 10:16:27 AM »
Which Dem candidates do you think actually have a chance of winning a southern state in a general election showdown against Trump?

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #107 on: February 28, 2019, 11:11:32 AM »
Which Dem candidates do you think actually have a chance of winning a southern state in a general election showdown against Trump?

Well, NC and FL went to Obama in 2008, and Obama won FL again in 2012, narrowly losing NC. A Democratic candidate won't win NC, or any southern state besides FL, unless they win in a landslide, so they really don't matter, but FL can be an absolutely critical piece of a winning electoral college map (just ask Al Gore).

So really, the question should be: What Democratic candidate can win Florida? I think Biden, Booker, Harris, and O'Rourke would do well there (in no particular order). I think Warren and Sanders would lose bigly. Klobuchar? I dunno. She might stand a chance, but I'd say she's no better than a toss-up at this point.

I'm not saying the candidates that would play well in FL are the only ones worthy of consideration, but I do believe that choosing Sanders is tantamount to conceding the whole South and basically going all in on the Midwest.

Kris

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #108 on: February 28, 2019, 11:37:48 AM »
Which Dem candidates do you think actually have a chance of winning a southern state in a general election showdown against Trump?

Well, NC and FL went to Obama in 2008, and Obama won FL again in 2012, narrowly losing NC. A Democratic candidate won't win NC, or any southern state besides FL, unless they win in a landslide, so they really don't matter, but FL can be an absolutely critical piece of a winning electoral college map (just ask Al Gore).

So really, the question should be: What Democratic candidate can win Florida? I think Biden, Booker, Harris, and O'Rourke would do well there (in no particular order). I think Warren and Sanders would lose bigly. Klobuchar? I dunno. She might stand a chance, but I'd say she's no better than a toss-up at this point.

I'm not saying the candidates that would play well in FL are the only ones worthy of consideration, but I do believe that choosing Sanders is tantamount to conceding the whole South and basically going all in on the Midwest.

I think I agree with you.

Johnez

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #109 on: February 28, 2019, 11:50:34 AM »
Which Dem candidates do you think actually have a chance of winning a southern state in a general election showdown against Trump?

Sherrod Brown.

Where Trump on pretends and postures, this man is an actual defender of the working class.

Was against NAFTA and voted against DOMA. Democratic credentials, and can win Ohio and possibly the core of Trump's victory in 2016-the Midwest.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #110 on: February 28, 2019, 12:30:46 PM »
I've watched Sherrod Brown on some video clips. He makes a great first impression with me, and seems authentic and a little unpolished, sort of like Bernie, which I think people look for. I will read up more about him.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #111 on: February 28, 2019, 12:42:02 PM »
Which Dem candidates do you think actually have a chance of winning a southern state in a general election showdown against Trump?

Sherrod Brown.

Where Trump on pretends and postures, this man is an actual defender of the working class.

Was against NAFTA and voted against DOMA. Democratic credentials, and can win Ohio and possibly the core of Trump's victory in 2016-the Midwest.

I keep hearing his name, but like Nick I honestly don't know enough about him to have an opinion.

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #112 on: February 28, 2019, 01:09:04 PM »
-SNIP-
I keep hearing his name, but like Nick I honestly don't know enough about him to have an opinion.

Who knew about Bernie in 2015?

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #113 on: February 28, 2019, 01:22:32 PM »
-SNIP-
I keep hearing his name, but like Nick I honestly don't know enough about him to have an opinion.

Who knew about Bernie in 2015?

Totally - I'm not dismissing him, I'm just being honest. There's a lot of time between now and the primaries. Has he even announced, though?

skp

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #114 on: February 28, 2019, 01:44:58 PM »
Registered Republican from Ohio
My impression of Sherrod Brown is he is very liberal.  Voted 8th most liberal senator. Wouldn't be a good choice if you wanted a more centrist candidate.
I think he is honest.  He isn't abrasive.  He doesn't talk like the electorate are morons.

He might have problems with the "me too" movement.  His first wife filed a restraining order against him- physical abuse.  She has since retracted that it ever occurred.  Be interesting how that plays out if he runs.

libertarian4321

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #115 on: April 09, 2019, 06:32:23 PM »
Pick AOC for VP Bern. I dare ya!

She's not old enough.  You need to be 35 to be President or Vice President, she's 29 currently.  On the other hand, his age means that his VP pick is a bit more important than usual.


D'oh, shoulda looked up her age.  And fricken A what the heck am I doing with my life? 

Don't be too hard on yourself.

A year ago, she was tending bar, going nowhere.

Now she's the leader of the Dem Party and about to lead us to a Green Socialist Utopia!

Anyone can make it to the top!

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #116 on: April 09, 2019, 07:19:27 PM »
Pick AOC for VP Bern. I dare ya!

She's not old enough.  You need to be 35 to be President or Vice President, she's 29 currently.  On the other hand, his age means that his VP pick is a bit more important than usual.


D'oh, shoulda looked up her age.  And fricken A what the heck am I doing with my life? 

Don't be too hard on yourself.

A year ago, she was tending bar, going nowhere.

Now she's the leader of the Dem Party and about to lead us to a Green Socialist Utopia!

Anyone can make it to the top!

I, for one, am glad we finally have someone in Congress who is willing to deal with the tough issues our nation is facing in the 21st century. Like cow farts.

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #117 on: April 10, 2019, 05:01:34 AM »



- SNIP -

I, for one, am glad we finally have someone in Congress who is willing to deal with the tough issues our nation is facing in the 21st century. Like cow farts.

Yeh yeh cow farts so they tell us.

https://timeforchange.org/are-cows-cause-of-global-warming-meat-methane-CO2

I just kinda think that the people riled against global warming are the same type that don't want us eating beef.  I'm thinking that a lot of PETA people are into the anti global warming thing too.  I am definitely not questioning global warming, but I do wonder whether a naturally occurring animal like a cow is a primary cause.

There used to be millions of buffalo roaming the great plains.  Didn't they fart as much or more than cows?

Further thinking down this rabbit hole - In the time of the dinosaurs, the Earth was warmer.  We are warming the Earth today with the fossil fuels left by the life of those ancient creatures.  In the time of the dinosaurs, was it dinosaur farts that made the Earth warmer than it is today?

I will look for a candidate who does not ignore global warming issues, but I am not for the removal of the beef and dairy industries.

GuitarStv

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #118 on: April 10, 2019, 08:11:57 AM »
There used to be millions of buffalo roaming the great plains.  Didn't they fart as much or more than cows?

Historically, there were 20 - 30 million buffalo roaming the great plains.  https://defenders.org/bison/basic-facts

Currently, there are 94.759 million cattle in the US, concentrated in a much smaller area of land.  https://beef2live.com/story-cattle-inventory-state-rankings-89-108182.  This of course, doesn't count the 2,500 farms raising bison.


Yes, both cows and buffalo fart.  We are raising an awful lot more cows and buffalo than exist naturally though.  It would be foolish to think that there are no repercussions to doing so.

LennStar

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #119 on: April 10, 2019, 09:57:35 AM »
There used to be millions of buffalo roaming the great plains.  Didn't they fart as much or more than cows?
No, they didn't, because they were not breeded for speed growing and unbelievable milk giving. They only fed on grass, not on power food, hormones and antibiotics.

And of course there were a lot less of them.

Not to mention that nature had a few million years to adjust to their farts and there was an equilibrium. One without all the CO2 we put in the atmosphere with burning oil, chopping down woods etc.

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #120 on: April 10, 2019, 11:00:43 AM »
OK OK - I happen to be one of those odd people that actually likes vegi-burgers.  Pig Farts must contribute a lot too.  They use everything but the squeal, but I'll bet there is no pig fart catcher.

So back to the subject at hand.  What does old Bernie say about cow farts?  Nothing specific, but he certainly does list a lot of specific items.  It's kind of impressive.  This is under the environment heading:


    Leave a planet to our kids that is healthy & habitable. (Apr 2018)
    Climate change will lead to international security crises. (Nov 2015)
    Advocate of animal welfare and humane treatment. (Sep 2015)
    Protect important watersheds and wildlife areas. (Sep 2015)
    GMOs are ok, but only with required labeling. (Sep 2015)
    Our kids will ask why we made planet less habitable. (Oct 2013)
    Sophisticated equipment transformed farms to overproduction. (Oct 2012)
    Very large farms raise questions about animal cruelty. (Oct 2012)
    Cut subsidies of wealthy farmers; increase grazing fees. (Jun 1997)
    City residents often frozen out of development decisions. (Jun 1997)
    Voted YES on protecting ocean, coastal, and Great Lakes ecosystems. (May 2013)
    Voted YES on $2 billion more for Cash for Clunkers program. (Aug 2009)
    Voted NO on prohibiting eminent domain for use as parks or grazing land. (Dec 2007)
    Voted YES on increasing AMTRAK funding by adding $214M to $900M. (Jun 2006)
    Voted YES on barring website promoting Yucca Mountain nuclear waste dump. (May 2006)
    Voted NO on deauthorizing "critical habitat" for endangered species. (Sep 2005)
    Voted NO on speeding up approval of forest thinning projects. (Nov 2003)
    Prohibits commercial logging on Federal public lands. (Apr 2001)
    Rated 90% by the LCV, indicating pro-environment votes. (Dec 2003)
    Promote conservation of rare felids & canids. (Mar 2007)
    Make tax deduction permanent for conservation easements. (Mar 2009)
    Regulate all dog breeders down to kennels of 50 dogs. (Feb 2011)
    Prohibit invasive research on great apes. (Apr 2011)
    Prohibits breeding or possessing Big Cat species. (Sep 2012)
    Rated 100% by HSLF, indicating a pro-animal welfare voting record. (Jan 2012)
    Require labeling genetically engineered food. (Apr 2013)
    Strengthen prohibitions against animal fighting. (Jan 2007)

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #121 on: April 17, 2019, 04:33:42 PM »
They say Bernie Sanders is currently the front runner.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/439206-the-memo-sanders-becomes-dem-frontrunner

It's a long time from now until November of 2020.  People may be very tired of him by then.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #122 on: April 18, 2019, 03:58:45 AM »
In my neck of the woods which now is going to play a big role in the elections I think it would be a mistake for Sanders. Yes I am a republican but I am right at the center and have a ton of friends that are Democrats and they all say the same thing that Bernie is to far a leap to the extreme left at this time. If Socialism is what the people eventually want I think its an election or two away yet. There are alot of republicans like myself that are willing to vote Democrat but its going to take someone that is closer to the center. End of the day there is good and bad on both sides and the last election and this one is shaping up to be a big Circus act so hopefully a good leader comes out of all these numbers of runners that really represents a large mass of the people so we can reduce the division in this nation of ours

GuitarStv

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #123 on: April 18, 2019, 07:10:33 AM »
In my neck of the woods which now is going to play a big role in the elections I think it would be a mistake for Sanders. Yes I am a republican but I am right at the center and have a ton of friends that are Democrats and they all say the same thing that Bernie is to far a leap to the extreme left at this time. If Socialism is what the people eventually want I think its an election or two away yet. There are alot of republicans like myself that are willing to vote Democrat but its going to take someone that is closer to the center. End of the day there is good and bad on both sides and the last election and this one is shaping up to be a big Circus act so hopefully a good leader comes out of all these numbers of runners that really represents a large mass of the people so we can reduce the division in this nation of ours

Important to note that the mid point between Republican and Democrat is not the center . . . it's actually pretty far to the right of the middle.

LennStar

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #124 on: April 18, 2019, 07:25:36 AM »
In my neck of the woods which now is going to play a big role in the elections I think it would be a mistake for Sanders. Yes I am a republican but I am right at the center and have a ton of friends that are Democrats and they all say the same thing that Bernie is to far a leap to the extreme left at this time. If Socialism is what the people eventually want I think its an election or two away yet. There are alot of republicans like myself that are willing to vote Democrat but its going to take someone that is closer to the center. End of the day there is good and bad on both sides and the last election and this one is shaping up to be a big Circus act so hopefully a good leader comes out of all these numbers of runners that really represents a large mass of the people so we can reduce the division in this nation of ours

Important to note that the mid point between Republican and Democrat is not the center . . . it's actually pretty far to the right of the middle.

From a European view point, the Democrats are a right wing party.
And btw. Sanders is not a socialist, he is a social democrat (again, this may be EU POV, but I think he called himself this way). Once his views were (mostly) right in the center, even in the US.

btw. what do you guys think of that? (Mainly the article, less the video itself)

https://boingboing.net/2019/04/17/aoc-instant-messenger.html

Nick_Miller

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #125 on: April 18, 2019, 07:54:58 AM »
It's hilarious to me that when you break down Bernie's priorities...

A living wage
Healthcare for all
Investment in education

That the vaasssst majority of people want those things and agree with his policies, BUT...as soon as the GOP labels it "socialism," a lot of the support shrinks.

Labels are so powerful. And the GOP are masters at labeling things and framing issues, even when they are wrong on substance (which is most of the time).

soccerluvof4

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #126 on: April 18, 2019, 10:37:37 AM »
It's hilarious to me that when you break down Bernie's priorities...

A living wage
Healthcare for all
Investment in education

That the vaasssst majority of people want those things and agree with his policies, BUT...as soon as the GOP labels it "socialism," a lot of the support shrinks.

Labels are so powerful. And the GOP are masters at labeling things and framing issues, even when they are wrong on substance (which is most of the time).


This is the problem. Dems say GOP is the Master at Labeling things and GOP says Dems are so whats the point of even bringing it up.  I don't know a single Republican that doesn't want the same thing you claim to be Bernies 3 top priorities. The issue is how to get there so instead of acting like one side is more innocent than the other encourage people to work together.

Fireball

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #127 on: April 18, 2019, 11:30:26 AM »
It's hilarious to me that when you break down Bernie's priorities...

A living wage
Healthcare for all
Investment in education

That the vaasssst majority of people want those things and agree with his policies, BUT...as soon as the GOP labels it "socialism," a lot of the support shrinks.

Labels are so powerful. And the GOP are masters at labeling things and framing issues, even when they are wrong on substance (which is most of the time).


This is the problem. Dems say GOP is the Master at Labeling things and GOP says Dems are so whats the point of even bringing it up.  I don't know a single Republican that doesn't want the same thing you claim to be Bernies 3 top priorities. The issue is how to get there so instead of acting like one side is more innocent than the other encourage people to work together.

Weird. In my neck of the woods I don't know a single Republican who wants *any* of those three things. <shrug>

Nick_Miller

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #128 on: April 18, 2019, 11:58:11 AM »
It's hilarious to me that when you break down Bernie's priorities...

A living wage
Healthcare for all
Investment in education

That the vaasssst majority of people want those things and agree with his policies, BUT...as soon as the GOP labels it "socialism," a lot of the support shrinks.

Labels are so powerful. And the GOP are masters at labeling things and framing issues, even when they are wrong on substance (which is most of the time).


This is the problem. Dems say GOP is the Master at Labeling things and GOP says Dems are so whats the point of even bringing it up.  I don't know a single Republican that doesn't want the same thing you claim to be Bernies 3 top priorities. The issue is how to get there so instead of acting like one side is more innocent than the other encourage people to work together.

Weird. In my neck of the woods I don't know a single Republican who wants *any* of those three things. <shrug>

I don't know a single Republican politician who supports those things. They defund public schools, rail against living wages based on their trickle-down theories, and claim that the insurance companies, magnaminous as we all know they all are, are the saviors of healthcare! Let the insurance companies battle each other, and rates will fall, and yes your family will reap the benefits because it's not like insurance companies are profit-driven entities who deny claims and raise rates to ensure they make healthy profits!

Kris

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #129 on: April 18, 2019, 12:12:34 PM »
It's hilarious to me that when you break down Bernie's priorities...

A living wage
Healthcare for all
Investment in education

That the vaasssst majority of people want those things and agree with his policies, BUT...as soon as the GOP labels it "socialism," a lot of the support shrinks.

Labels are so powerful. And the GOP are masters at labeling things and framing issues, even when they are wrong on substance (which is most of the time).


This is the problem. Dems say GOP is the Master at Labeling things and GOP says Dems are so whats the point of even bringing it up.  I don't know a single Republican that doesn't want the same thing you claim to be Bernies 3 top priorities. The issue is how to get there so instead of acting like one side is more innocent than the other encourage people to work together.

Weird. In my neck of the woods I don't know a single Republican who wants *any* of those three things. <shrug>

I don't know a single Republican politician who supports those things. They defund public schools, rail against living wages based on their trickle-down theories, and claim that the insurance companies, magnaminous as we all know they all are, are the saviors of healthcare! Let the insurance companies battle each other, and rates will fall, and yes your family will reap the benefits because it's not like insurance companies are profit-driven entities who deny claims and raise rates to ensure they make healthy profits!


Yeah, I sure don't hear Republican politicians supporting those things. And the Republican voters I know sometimes manage to come close to realizing that these are things that should be priorities, but have been brainwashed by the Republican line so they veer away in fear before they actually get to the point of support.

A living wage? Why should a person who works fast food be paid as much as a linesman? (the Republican talking point to short-circuit any discussion that might end up with the idea that we are all human and maybe deserve to make a living wage if we work a full-time job...)

Healthcare for all? Why the hell should I be paying for some deadbeat's health insurance? Why should I pay for some fatass who gets sick because they make bad choices? (Again, the talking point designed to short-circuit any discussion of the fact that our healthcare system is seriously broken and that the actual reason it's expensive isn't because some people who are unemployed get sick -- and also of why it is that there's such a problem with overweight in this country...)

Investment in education? Why should I be paying for someone else's kid's education? Plus, teachers unions are the problem! And also..., Throwing Money At The Problem Isn't A Solution... etc. (A long and successful Republican campaign to divorce people from the notion of the general welfare mentioned in the Constitution)

Oh: and you can toss "illegal immigration!!!!" into the mix of all three of these, too: I ain't payin' for illegal immigrants to have ____ (fill in the blank). These triggers are well-known to be effective when used with Republicans. Their degree of veracity doesn't really matter.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 12:17:30 PM by Kris »

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #130 on: April 18, 2019, 04:38:18 PM »
- SNIP -

Yeah, I sure don't hear Republican politicians supporting those things. And the Republican voters I know sometimes manage to come close to realizing that these are things that should be priorities, but have been brainwashed by the Republican line so they veer away in fear before they actually get to the point of support.

A living wage? Why should a person who works fast food be paid as much as a linesman? (the Republican talking point to short-circuit any discussion that might end up with the idea that we are all human and maybe deserve to make a living wage if we work a full-time job...)

Healthcare for all? Why the hell should I be paying for some deadbeat's health insurance? Why should I pay for some fatass who gets sick because they make bad choices? (Again, the talking point designed to short-circuit any discussion of the fact that our healthcare system is seriously broken and that the actual reason it's expensive isn't because some people who are unemployed get sick -- and also of why it is that there's such a problem with overweight in this country...)

Investment in education? Why should I be paying for someone else's kid's education? Plus, teachers unions are the problem! And also..., Throwing Money At The Problem Isn't A Solution... etc. (A long and successful Republican campaign to divorce people from the notion of the general welfare mentioned in the Constitution)

Oh: and you can toss "illegal immigration!!!!" into the mix of all three of these, too: I ain't payin' for illegal immigrants to have ____ (fill in the blank). These triggers are well-known to be effective when used with Republicans. Their degree of veracity doesn't really matter.

If written properly, selfishness can be a fine art.  Am I my brother's keeper?  Hell no.  I don't even like the SOB.  I'm out for number one and I ain't ashamed of it  I don't want to hear any more stories of the needs of other people.  Let them work for everything the same as me.  If they won't or can't work too bad.  That ain't my problem and I don't have to pay for their troubles.

The same philosophy can, of  course, be written in high brow language.  When written this way, it allows the reader to not only feel he is better than his or her fellow human being, but to feel smarter as well.

In my neck of the woods there were people that pulled together and helped one another.  It was a good thing.  They felt it was the right thing.  Something has gone terribly wrong.

LennStar

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #131 on: April 19, 2019, 01:22:23 AM »
A living wage? Why should a person who works fast food be paid as much as a linesman?
Why doesn't a linesman (whatever that is, from assembly line?) gets more than someone putting patties between bad bread?

Quote
Why the hell should I be paying for some deadbeat's health insurance?
Why should anybody else pay for your cancer treatment, as this exceeds all the money you ever paid?

Quote
Why should I be paying for someone else's kid's education?
Would you prefer to have your cancer treatment be done by someone who cannot read?

Quote
I ain't payin' for illegal immigrants to have ____
And why are you paying some billionaires to make money from all those three things above?

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #132 on: April 27, 2019, 08:07:40 AM »
Bernie got booed.

He dropped a few names and got booed.  Take a look.  It's not long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAXzS9I0zHc

I was surprised.  After watching it, I'm not sure why they booed.

She the People - https://www.shethepeople.org/about


Now - old Joe Biden is running.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/25/joe-biden-video-1290334

Do you think he wold have been booed by "She the People?"

Kris

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #133 on: April 27, 2019, 08:56:18 AM »
Bernie got booed.

He dropped a few names and got booed.  Take a look.  It's not long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAXzS9I0zHc

I was surprised.  After watching it, I'm not sure why they booed.

She the People - https://www.shethepeople.org/about


Now - old Joe Biden is running.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/25/joe-biden-video-1290334

Do you think he wold have been booed by "She the People?"

They were pissed because he gave canned answers, and because the only thing he seemed to be able to say was a couple things he did literally decades ago. As though that ought to be enough. And he didn’t understand why it wasn’t. And then... that condescending finger-wag thing...

Ugh. No.

maizeman

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #134 on: April 27, 2019, 08:58:16 AM »
Bernie got booed.

He dropped a few names and got booed.  Take a look.  It's not long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAXzS9I0zHc

I was surprised.  After watching it, I'm not sure why they booed.

I believe the audience wanted him to talk about how to fight against white nationalists. Bernie's platform focuses more on how prevent people from becoming white nationalists so he didn't have the answer the audience wanted, and so he got booed. In other words, he got booed for what he didn't say, not for what he did.

You can see the Andrew Yang struggle a bit with very much the same question in his town hall here: https://youtu.be/5Q6sDKvwdO0?t=180

Essentially both Yang and Sanders's platforms are based on the assertion that the actual problem we face is rising tribalism in the US. If that is indeed the problem, the solution is to identify and fight the roots of that change in our society. Roots like growing economic insecurity, which we do know from countless studies makes people act more racist and hateful. If we identify and confront those roots, fewer people will become radicalized supporters of hateful ideologies. So Sanders focuses on questions of inequality rather than race, and Yang focuses on economic fixes to social instability (like the freedom dividend).

I think both of those approaches are more likely to work, but it's not nearly as emotionally satisfying as an answer which is a full throated condemnation of the bad racist people (and to be clear white nationalists really are evil and bad). This second answer externalizes the problem. There aren't underlying structural reasons we have more bad racist people today than in recent decades. They are just bad people, we need to band together, fight and defeat them, and then our lives will be better. (And to be clear, it really is important for society to come together and condemn white nationalism and other hateful and discriminatory ideologies wherever they rear their heads. I just don't think that doing only that will be enough to solve things.)

The best analogy I can think of is when you hear people on the right talk about islamic extremism or islamic terrorism. Everyone agrees terrorism and violence is bad, but left-wing responses to questions about that issue tend to focus more on "how to we prevent muslims from becoming radicalized in the first place" and right wing responses to questions about that issue tend focus more on "I'm going to protect you from those bad muslims, or even from muslims generally.*"

Switch "left" and "right" for two different wings of the democratic party, and "islamic terrorism" for "white nationalism" and you have the dilemma democratic presidential candidates confront today.

*"...But the approaches I will use will radicalize other muslims who previously weren't."

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #135 on: April 28, 2019, 01:35:17 PM »
Bernie got booed.

He dropped a few names and got booed.  Take a look.  It's not long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAXzS9I0zHc

I was surprised.  After watching it, I'm not sure why they booed.

I believe the audience wanted him to talk about how to fight against white nationalists. Bernie's platform focuses more on how prevent people from becoming white nationalists so he didn't have the answer the audience wanted, and so he got booed. In other words, he got booed for what he didn't say, not for what he did.

You can see the Andrew Yang struggle a bit with very much the same question in his town hall here: https://youtu.be/5Q6sDKvwdO0?t=180

Essentially both Yang and Sanders's platforms are based on the assertion that the actual problem we face is rising tribalism in the US. If that is indeed the problem, the solution is to identify and fight the roots of that change in our society. Roots like growing economic insecurity, which we do know from countless studies makes people act more racist and hateful. If we identify and confront those roots, fewer people will become radicalized supporters of hateful ideologies. So Sanders focuses on questions of inequality rather than race, and Yang focuses on economic fixes to social instability (like the freedom dividend).

I think both of those approaches are more likely to work, but it's not nearly as emotionally satisfying as an answer which is a full throated condemnation of the bad racist people (and to be clear white nationalists really are evil and bad). This second answer externalizes the problem. There aren't underlying structural reasons we have more bad racist people today than in recent decades. They are just bad people, we need to band together, fight and defeat them, and then our lives will be better. (And to be clear, it really is important for society to come together and condemn white nationalism and other hateful and discriminatory ideologies wherever they rear their heads. I just don't think that doing only that will be enough to solve things.)

The best analogy I can think of is when you hear people on the right talk about islamic extremism or islamic terrorism. Everyone agrees terrorism and violence is bad, but left-wing responses to questions about that issue tend to focus more on "how to we prevent muslims from becoming radicalized in the first place" and right wing responses to questions about that issue tend focus more on "I'm going to protect you from those bad muslims, or even from muslims generally.*"

Switch "left" and "right" for two different wings of the democratic party, and "islamic terrorism" for "white nationalism" and you have the dilemma democratic presidential candidates confront today.

*"...But the approaches I will use will radicalize other muslims who previously weren't."

I honestly truly believe that the whole "white nationalist" phobia is largely concocted by the media to frighten people into clicking on articles in a desperate attempt to get ad revenue in the age of Ad-Block Plus. Most of the supposedly white nationalist memes and posts are created by shit-stirring middle school children who aren't being monitored by their parents while they post on websites like 4chan. The reality is that almost the entire population of the United States is composed of normal people with moderate views who don't really get to have a voice, because being an even-keeled reasonable person isn't exciting enough to get clicks.

Even the whole Trump phenomenon from 2016 was largely the invention of the media who cynically exploited his histrionics and bombastic statements to get ad revenue. He only really started to get support because the media purposefully gave him millions and millions of eyeballs and lots and lots of exposure for no charge, while his opponents struggled to get their own message out.

The 2016 election didn't even need Russian interference because the mainstream media did a good enough job of it on their own.

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #136 on: April 28, 2019, 06:33:11 PM »


- KER SNIP -

I honestly truly believe that the whole "white nationalist" phobia is largely concocted by the media to frighten people into clicking on articles in a desperate attempt to get ad revenue in the age of Ad-Block Plus. Most of the supposedly white nationalist memes and posts are created by shit-stirring middle school children who aren't being monitored by their parents while they post on websites like 4chan. The reality is that almost the entire population of the United States is composed of normal people with moderate views who don't really get to have a voice, because being an even-keeled reasonable person isn't exciting enough to get clicks.

Even the whole Trump phenomenon from 2016 was largely the invention of the media who cynically exploited his histrionics and bombastic statements to get ad revenue. He only really started to get support because the media purposefully gave him millions and millions of eyeballs and lots and lots of exposure for no charge, while his opponents struggled to get their own message out.

The 2016 election didn't even need Russian interference because the mainstream media did a good enough job of it on their own.

I think you are right.  So - What are they going to do to keep the ratings up and people entertained during this go-around?  Some of these candidates like old Bernie and Elizabeth Warren make use of facts and figures to make their points.  This takes time.  During this time some viewers will drop off.  They will need to come up with some sort of diversionary tactic to keep their core audience glued to the screen.  Will Trump be enough or will they work to get another candidate which they can report on?  Jesse Ventura may make an interesting candidate.  He is brash and opinionated.  His voice is the type that could be used for lots of sound bytes. 

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #137 on: April 28, 2019, 09:11:17 PM »


- KER SNIP -

I honestly truly believe that the whole "white nationalist" phobia is largely concocted by the media to frighten people into clicking on articles in a desperate attempt to get ad revenue in the age of Ad-Block Plus. Most of the supposedly white nationalist memes and posts are created by shit-stirring middle school children who aren't being monitored by their parents while they post on websites like 4chan. The reality is that almost the entire population of the United States is composed of normal people with moderate views who don't really get to have a voice, because being an even-keeled reasonable person isn't exciting enough to get clicks.

Even the whole Trump phenomenon from 2016 was largely the invention of the media who cynically exploited his histrionics and bombastic statements to get ad revenue. He only really started to get support because the media purposefully gave him millions and millions of eyeballs and lots and lots of exposure for no charge, while his opponents struggled to get their own message out.

The 2016 election didn't even need Russian interference because the mainstream media did a good enough job of it on their own.

I think you are right.  So - What are they going to do to keep the ratings up and people entertained during this go-around?  Some of these candidates like old Bernie and Elizabeth Warren make use of facts and figures to make their points.  This takes time.  During this time some viewers will drop off.  They will need to come up with some sort of diversionary tactic to keep their core audience glued to the screen.  Will Trump be enough or will they work to get another candidate which they can report on?  Jesse Ventura may make an interesting candidate.  He is brash and opinionated.  His voice is the type that could be used for lots of sound bytes.

Well, right now the media is pushing the narrative that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is some kind of important person, despite the fact that she's a freshman Representative who doesn't even chair any committees and doesn't receive much support from her party. It's because she says weird left-wing fringe stuff that produces outrage, which means clicks, which means ad revenue. Nobody from her party has any respect for her because she's kind of like a loud child shouting random silly stuff that has no connection to any kind of coherent policy. But when she posts things about cow farts causing climate change or about people in Alabama getting ringworm due to billionaires, it produces ad revenue for the dying mainstream media, so they keep pushing her.

LennStar

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #138 on: April 29, 2019, 01:30:43 AM »

Well, right now the media is pushing the narrative that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is some kind of important person, despite the fact that she's a freshman Representative who doesn't even chair any committees and doesn't receive much support from her party. It's because she says weird left-wing fringe stuff that produces outrage, which means clicks, which means ad revenue. Nobody from her party has any respect for her because she's kind of like a loud child shouting random silly stuff that has no connection to any kind of coherent policy. But when she posts things about cow farts causing climate change or about people in Alabama getting ringworm due to billionaires, it produces ad revenue for the dying mainstream media, so they keep pushing her.

May I correct you on a few things here ;)

AOC is important not despite, but because she is an unimportant freshman and still everyone established - especially the "white old man" gets pissed off about her so much.
Also many of her party have respect for her because she rejects the "you need to get into our lines, get like we, take 20 years" in the face of the big problems. The Democratic Establishment does not like her, of course, as they also hate everyone else that is a threat to them - see their order that nobody who challenges an incumbrent gets any official help from the party.
And, even if you don't like it, what she "shouts" is, as far as I have seen, a neither far-left (from a view that is not far-right) nor "no connection to any kind of coherent policy". Quite the opposite, I have seen her a lot more informed than the other people in the room - and that cow farts are one reason for climate change is just basic science established for decades.

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #139 on: April 29, 2019, 06:03:12 PM »
FOX picks on Bernie.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sander-nista-archives-show-bernies-past-praise-of-socialist-revolutionaries

They are raking up some pretty good muck about him.

I still like old Bernie.  I think if he is elected he will keep us out of some unnecessary foreign military entanglements.  He's made a few mistakes over the years and said some wrong things.  He is not a neocon.  I didn't like those guys.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #140 on: April 29, 2019, 07:16:05 PM »

Well, right now the media is pushing the narrative that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is some kind of important person, despite the fact that she's a freshman Representative who doesn't even chair any committees and doesn't receive much support from her party. It's because she says weird left-wing fringe stuff that produces outrage, which means clicks, which means ad revenue. Nobody from her party has any respect for her because she's kind of like a loud child shouting random silly stuff that has no connection to any kind of coherent policy. But when she posts things about cow farts causing climate change or about people in Alabama getting ringworm due to billionaires, it produces ad revenue for the dying mainstream media, so they keep pushing her.

May I correct you on a few things here ;)

AOC is important not despite, but because she is an unimportant freshman and still everyone established - especially the "white old man" gets pissed off about her so much.
Also many of her party have respect for her because she rejects the "you need to get into our lines, get like we, take 20 years" in the face of the big problems. The Democratic Establishment does not like her, of course, as they also hate everyone else that is a threat to them - see their order that nobody who challenges an incumbrent gets any official help from the party.
And, even if you don't like it, what she "shouts" is, as far as I have seen, a neither far-left (from a view that is not far-right) nor "no connection to any kind of coherent policy". Quite the opposite, I have seen her a lot more informed than the other people in the room - and that cow farts are one reason for climate change is just basic science established for decades.

I take it that you consume a lot of mainstream media. Have you heard about africanized bees? They're coming to get us all!

pbkmaine

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #141 on: April 29, 2019, 07:58:01 PM »
I follow AOC, although my political preferences do not match with hers. I think she’s doing something interesting and important. Through social media, she is showing us what it is like to be a member of Congress. She filmed the office lottery. She opened up her budget book. She takes us through the halls and tunnels of the Capitol. She sits at night with her ramen noodles on Instagram Live and talks about her day. She wrote a children’s story about the Green New Deal. I don’t know if she can keep up the pace, but I’m 62 years old, and she’s the best pure communicator I have seen since Ronald Reagan.

LennStar

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #142 on: April 29, 2019, 11:37:26 PM »
FOX picks on Bernie.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sander-nista-archives-show-bernies-past-praise-of-socialist-revolutionaries

They are raking up some pretty good muck about him.

I still like old Bernie.  I think if he is elected he will keep us out of some unnecessary foreign military entanglements.  He's made a few mistakes over the years and said some wrong things.  He is not a neocon.  I didn't like those guys.

So what Fox does not like about Sanders is that he liked people who stood up against a corrupt dictator? And that he didn't liked Reagan who interfered in another country's business and used military force and subersive division tactics to destroy those people? And who (that is the US taxpayer) got sentenced to 2,4 billion dollar "restauration" by the International Court of Justice? (Still unpaid of course, even after the UN resolution.)
Yeah, I can see why Fox News hates that there is someone who reminds them on that ^^


Nick_Miller

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #143 on: April 30, 2019, 07:27:24 AM »
I follow AOC, although my political preferences do not match with hers. I think she’s doing something interesting and important. Through social media, she is showing us what it is like to be a member of Congress. She filmed the office lottery. She opened up her budget book. She takes us through the halls and tunnels of the Capitol. She sits at night with her ramen noodles on Instagram Live and talks about her day. She wrote a children’s story about the Green New Deal. I don’t know if she can keep up the pace, but I’m 62 years old, and she’s the best pure communicator I have seen since Ronald Reagan.

Absolutely.

I don't support all of her positions either, but really that's not the point. She is whip smart and her strides towards transparency are so refreshing. I read her tweets about how new Reps are "trained" and it was really eye opening. I also read her tweets about her budget, how she pays her interns, etc. The fact that some are trying to "shame her" for being a regular person are disgusting. And I think coal miners will like her. She is imperfect, but authentic. I would take another few dozen AOCs in the House in a heartbeat, even some conservative versions of her, who are focused communicating with their constituents in an honest and open way and who are open to working with the "other side."

AOC was recently interviewed and was asked about which Republicans she had befriended and she said she has befriended several, but is legit afraid that she would hurt their careers if she mentioned who they are. Great political environment we have going here.

Enigma

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #144 on: May 01, 2019, 12:53:34 PM »
Unlike the last election I doubt Bernie will back the democratic candidate.  Possibly taking some of the % of dem vote in the US 2 party system

maizeman

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #145 on: May 01, 2019, 01:14:34 PM »
Unlike the last election I doubt Bernie will back the democratic candidate.  Possibly taking some of the % of dem vote in the US 2 party system

You think so? Compared to 2016, it seems like almost all of the major candidates have platforms much more similar to the Sanders '16/'20 ones than H. Clinton did in '16.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #146 on: May 01, 2019, 02:13:35 PM »
I think it depends on how desperate Bernie is to be president. There's something about:

his messaging (the whole "Help us fight the 'Never Sanders' movement!"),

and the constant begging for money,

and him immediately gunning for Biden,

and his online supporters being so negative against the other candidates (I put the 'YangGang' up with the Bernie Bros too),

It all seems desperate to me at this very early stage. He knows this is his last chance because of his age, and I fear his rhetoric might heat up down the line to the point where more of his supporters don't go with the voteblue plan.


maizeman

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #147 on: May 01, 2019, 03:16:40 PM »
and his online supporters being so negative against the other candidates (I put the 'YangGang' up with the Bernie Bros too),

Huh, this does not match what I've seen personally, but the internet is such a large place we could be feeling different parts of the same elephant.

pecunia

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #148 on: May 01, 2019, 06:36:48 PM »
So - Joe Biden is in the race.  He is doing well and this is getting Bernie a bit riled.  Bernie is an idealistic person.  He has stood for the same things forever.  Maybe, Joe is just a bit more of a real politician.  What's he stand for?  It may not be quite as clear cut.  Time will provide a bit more focus on what he presently believes.

https://www.ontheissues.org/Joe_Biden.htm  Collection of past history.

Looks like he's jumped right over Bernie in the polls.  Almost 10 percent higher.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/28/18285455/2020-presidential-election-polls-joe-biden-democratic-primary-candidates

Perhaps, he is easier for the public to accept than Bernie.  Bernie wants full replacement of some of the parts of our social system and Joe looks to be more of an incrementalist.  I'm with Bernie on lots of this stuff.  It's better to cut the dog's tail off all at once rather than at a piece at a time.

I get the idea that the powers at be are more than a bit afraid of Old Bernie.  They are not sure how to handle him.

libertarian4321

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Re: Old Bernie is Running
« Reply #149 on: May 02, 2019, 12:30:23 AM »
Bernie is such a crotchety old geezer, he makes me feel young.  And I'm not young.

Though with a doddering Joe Biden also running (he was getting confused during his announcement speech-that's not a good sign, though not unexpected given his age), Bernie is a "youth movement." :)