Oh, Florida!!! Covid19 Response

[HPstache]

2) Obese people and elderly people are still Americans. And just like you don't have the right to yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater, others have the right not to be killed by your stupidity.

Others (obese and elderly) have the option to protect fully themselves with properly fitting P95/N95 or even 100% efficiency masks/respirators regardless of what the "stupidity" around them decides to do.

Of course masking is happening. It's still not 100% - so no, they cannot "protect themselves fully".

Yes they can.  For the same reason a doctor or nurse can care for a covid patient in a closed room and be confident they will not contract the disease.  Properly fitted N95 and P95/100 masks and respirators are sufficient to protect anyone from the disease with an incredibly high degree of confidence.  They are available to everyone, but people seem to have forgotten.
  Instead, they want everyone around them to pretend like they might be sick and wear a joke of a piece of cloth in front of their nose and mouth like were told to do while proper PPE was a protected commodity and it made sense for everyone to cloth mask.

[Dollar Slice]

Yes they can.  For the same reason a doctor or nurse can care for a covid patient in a closed room and be confident they will not contract the disease.  Properly fitted N95 and P95/100 masks and respirators are sufficient to protect anyone from the disease with an incredibly high degree of confidence.  They are available to everyone, but people seem to have forgotten.

SO MANY medical professionals have gotten COVID in spite of wearing all their PPE. SO MANY. Where have you been??

Not to mention that small children can't wear those kind of masks, and they will take the virus home to their vulnerable family members. Unless you suggest that the medically vulnerable eat, sleep, and shower in N95s 24-7-365 if they live with small children? Or, what, we just all have keep small children indoors until they're 7 to avoid people like you?

I don't know if you think this is making you look smart or debonair or something, but repeatedly proclaiming that you're willing to let people die so you can be approximately seven percent more comfortable is... not accomplishing that.

[HPstache]

Yes they can.  For the same reason a doctor or nurse can care for a covid patient in a closed room and be confident they will not contract the disease.  Properly fitted N95 and P95/100 masks and respirators are sufficient to protect anyone from the disease with an incredibly high degree of confidence.  They are available to everyone, but people seem to have forgotten.

SO MANY medical professionals have gotten COVID in spite of wearing all their PPE. SO MANY. Where have you been??

Not to mention that small children can't wear those kind of masks, and they will take the virus home to their vulnerable family members. Unless you suggest that the medically vulnerable eat, sleep, and shower in N95s 24-7-365 if they live with small children? Or, what, we just all have keep small children indoors until they're 7 to avoid people like you?

I don't know if you think this is making you look smart or debonair or something, but repeatedly proclaiming that you're willing to let people die so you can be approximately seven percent more comfortable is... not accomplishing that.

That does not mean that they contracted Covid while wearing proper N/P 95/100 respirators and masks.  They could have gotten it at lunch, from their hands, etc.  They may not have been wearing respirators at all.  There were lots of people working at medical facilities just wearing cloth masks because they weren't working in the actual Covid areas & rooms and the supply was protected at the time.  Plenty of non full-PPE opportunities to result in a contraction in a facility where Covid was constantly "around" without assuming that a respirator has failed you.  There is science behind the efficiency of respirators that I believe in.  If you have proof otherwise,  please provide it.

If there is someone who cannot risk being infected by a child at their home, then they should absolutely take the necessary precautions... sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you send your kids to school with a cloth mask on, even if everyone around them is wearing them.  Universal cloth masking does not solve this problem like the vulnerable person wearing proper PPE does.

I am trying to make a very clear point... not trying to look smart.  The point is that if people want to protect themselves they can do it all by themselves now, and it has nothing to do what those around them are doing.  I want people to hear this because I am convinced people have forgotten and are fixated on wanting to see everyone wearing cloth masks, which at best only improves the chances for the vulnerable...  unlike proper PPE that actually protects them. I do not hope anyone dies, in fact I am offering a forgotten solution.

Editing to add a mental experiment to think about:  if you were vulnerable and unable to be vaccinated and you had to take an 8 hour closed window car ride with someone who has covid, would you rather be wearing a P100 respirator and the person with covid nothing, or both of you wearing a piece of cloth in front of your face?  The painfully obvious answer proves that people who are actually vulnerable should take protection into their own hands rather than relying on an antiquated universal cloth masking solution.

[Dollar Slice]

If there is someone who cannot risk being infected by a child at their home, then they should absolutely take the necessary precautions... sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you send your kids to school with a cloth mask on, even if everyone around them is wearing them.

I'm not talking about sending kids to school. I live in an apartment building with upwards of 150+ people. I am medically vulnerable (lacking the gene to make a certain type of antibodies). I literally can't step outside my apartment door without risking running into maskless, potentially contagious people who could infect me. I run into people in the stairs, elevator, lobby, etc. constantly who refuse to mask even though it's building policy to mask in all public indoor spaces. The building staff refuses to mask on the job. The same thing happens when I go to the grocery store, the pharmacy, or if I get on public transit to go to the doctor. This isn't a "high risk" situation, this is just... existing. Doing very basic, necessary things to survive like acquiring food and medicine.

What is the answer to that? "Sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you ever want basic medical care"? "Sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you ever want to avoid the grocery and pharmacy and get your food and medicine delivered downstairs, because you still have to leave your apartment and see everyone unmasked in the hallway, elevator, and lobby"? "Sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you want to ever leave your two-room apartment"?

Cloth masks and surgical masks aren't perfect, but they do make a substantial difference when everyone is wearing them. Even if it's only 50% effective, reducing R0 by half is huge and we need every weapon we can get. Unless, again, you just don't give a shit about people dying endlessly and this pandemic dragging on eternally.

[PDXTabs]

I'm not talking about sending kids to school. I live in an apartment building with upwards of 150+ people. I am medically vulnerable (lacking the gene to make a certain type of antibodies). I literally can't step outside my apartment door without risking running into maskless, potentially contagious people who could infect me. I run into people in the stairs, elevator, lobby, etc. constantly who refuse to mask even though it's building policy to mask in all public indoor spaces. The building staff refuses to mask on the job. The same thing happens when I go to the grocery store, the pharmacy, or if I get on public transit to go to the doctor. This isn't a "high risk" situation, this is just... existing. Doing very basic, necessary things to survive like acquiring food and medicine.

That really sucks. Have you talked to a lawyer? At least the building staff might respond to a demand letter.

Unless, again, you just don't give a shit about people dying endlessly and this pandemic dragging on eternally.

I don't think that this pandemic is going to end because people wear masks. I don't know of any epidemiologist that has said that in recent memory.

[HPstache]

If there is someone who cannot risk being infected by a child at their home, then they should absolutely take the necessary precautions... sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you send your kids to school with a cloth mask on, even if everyone around them is wearing them.

I'm not talking about sending kids to school. I live in an apartment building with upwards of 150+ people. I am medically vulnerable (lacking the gene to make a certain type of antibodies). I literally can't step outside my apartment door without risking running into maskless, potentially contagious people who could infect me. I run into people in the stairs, elevator, lobby, etc. constantly who refuse to mask even though it's building policy to mask in all public indoor spaces. The building staff refuses to mask on the job. The same thing happens when I go to the grocery store, the pharmacy, or if I get on public transit to go to the doctor. This isn't a "high risk" situation, this is just... existing. Doing very basic, necessary things to survive like acquiring food and medicine.

What is the answer to that? "Sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you ever want basic medical care"? "Sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you ever want to avoid the grocery and pharmacy and get your food and medicine delivered downstairs, because you still have to leave your apartment and see everyone unmasked in the hallway, elevator, and lobby"? "Sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you want to ever leave your two-room apartment"?

Cloth masks and surgical masks aren't perfect, but they do make a substantial difference when everyone is wearing them. Even if it's only 50% effective, reducing R0 by half is huge and we need every weapon we can get. Unless, again, you just don't give a shit about people dying endlessly and this pandemic dragging on eternally.

Am I being unclear?  You are asking what my answer is, and I've said it multiple times.  Take your health and well being in your own hands and wear a properly fitted P95/ P100 respirator outside of your apartment if you're truly at risk and cannot be vaccinated or vaccine will not work (sounds like this is the case for you).   They exist, they are not protected commodities any more, they do not rely on others, they are backed by science, they could save your life.  Expecting everyone around you to wear a cloth mask to work in addition to yours at what is a low efficiency is a bad plan and was only the best solution only for a short amount of time in the early stages of Covid when we didnt have a vaccine and PPE needed to be allocated to those that were on the front lines and could not isolate.  Again, think of the car example... you WILL have exposures in your life, Covid and its variants are here to stay, which is the better solution for you?

[former player]

If there is someone who cannot risk being infected by a child at their home, then they should absolutely take the necessary precautions... sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you send your kids to school with a cloth mask on, even if everyone around them is wearing them.

I'm not talking about sending kids to school. I live in an apartment building with upwards of 150+ people. I am medically vulnerable (lacking the gene to make a certain type of antibodies). I literally can't step outside my apartment door without risking running into maskless, potentially contagious people who could infect me. I run into people in the stairs, elevator, lobby, etc. constantly who refuse to mask even though it's building policy to mask in all public indoor spaces. The building staff refuses to mask on the job. The same thing happens when I go to the grocery store, the pharmacy, or if I get on public transit to go to the doctor. This isn't a "high risk" situation, this is just... existing. Doing very basic, necessary things to survive like acquiring food and medicine.

What is the answer to that? "Sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you ever want basic medical care"? "Sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you ever want to avoid the grocery and pharmacy and get your food and medicine delivered downstairs, because you still have to leave your apartment and see everyone unmasked in the hallway, elevator, and lobby"? "Sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you want to ever leave your two-room apartment"?

Cloth masks and surgical masks aren't perfect, but they do make a substantial difference when everyone is wearing them. Even if it's only 50% effective, reducing R0 by half is huge and we need every weapon we can get. Unless, again, you just don't give a shit about people dying endlessly and this pandemic dragging on eternally.

Am I being unclear?  You are asking what my answer is, and I've said it multiple times.  Take your health and well being in your own hands and wear a properly fitted P95/ P100 respirator outside of your apartment if you're truly at risk and cannot be vaccinated or vaccine will not work (sounds like this is the case for you).   They exist, they are not protected commodities any more, they do not rely on others, they are backed by science, they could save your life.  Expecting everyone around you to wear a cloth mask to work in addition to yours at what is a low efficiency is a bad plan and was only the best solution only for a short amount of time in the early stages of Covid when we didnt have a vaccine and PPE needed to be allocated to those that were on the front lines and could not isolate.  Again, think of the car example... you WILL have exposures in your life, Covid and its variants are here to stay, which is the better solution for you?

Dollar Slice didn't say anything about cloth masks.  You keep implying that it is unreasonable to expect people to wear a low efficiency cloth mask.  Better masks are now easily available, not very expensive, re-useable and up to 100% effective.  Do you have any good reason why people should not be expected to wear an effective mask in shared and enclosed parts of a building, such as an elevator, during a pandemic? (In case you were not aware, the pandemic is still on-going, we are not yet in the endemic phase of this illness, although it is clear that that is what we will end up with.)

[Dollar Slice]

Am I being unclear?  You are asking what my answer is, and I've said it multiple times.

I asked what your solution was for people in my situation with family members too young to wear N95s. I guess I missed your answer to that other than some strawman thing about how it's high risk to go to school.

I also pointed out that N95s aren't perfect, but you decided you don't believe me, which: *shrug*. They're really not. And most people don't know how to wear them. Medical professionals have to be trained and fit tested to wear them correctly. (Remember those pictures going around social media of doctors and nurses with their faces all marked up and bruised? That's from N95s being properly worn all day.) Plus they're not recommended for some people with heart and lung problems, which, hello, people vulnerable to COVID! It's just not a 100% universally acceptable recommendation that lets you write off 10+ million Americans as "they can take care of it themselves, so it's no longer on me to worry about it".

I realize that you've bought into your own idea so hard that you're never going to let it go no matter how illogical it is. You don't have to keep arguing if you don't want to, you seem to just repeat the same single thing over and over.

That really sucks. Have you talked to a lawyer? At least the building staff might respond to a demand letter.

Believe it or not, I've had an extremely stressful year with a lot of health problems, and this is about the last thing I need on my plate :-) I've written to the building admin about it. The only thing they ever do is send out e-mails reminding people to wear masks. And there are signs up. But there's no actual enforcement because there's no staff in place to do that sort of thing.

I don't think that this pandemic is going to end because people wear masks. I don't know of any epidemiologist that has said that in recent memory.

It won't end because of one thing. Masking will reduce spread, vaccination will reduce spread, social distancing will reduce spread, natural immunity will reduce spread, and all the things together will (hopefully) reduce the spread until it stops being a runaway train for long enough that we get it under control somehow (maybe with a really effective treatment, a better/updated vaccine, or more widespread vaccinations with the ones we have now).

[HPstache]

If there is someone who cannot risk being infected by a child at their home, then they should absolutely take the necessary precautions... sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you send your kids to school with a cloth mask on, even if everyone around them is wearing them.

I'm not talking about sending kids to school. I live in an apartment building with upwards of 150+ people. I am medically vulnerable (lacking the gene to make a certain type of antibodies). I literally can't step outside my apartment door without risking running into maskless, potentially contagious people who could infect me. I run into people in the stairs, elevator, lobby, etc. constantly who refuse to mask even though it's building policy to mask in all public indoor spaces. The building staff refuses to mask on the job. The same thing happens when I go to the grocery store, the pharmacy, or if I get on public transit to go to the doctor. This isn't a "high risk" situation, this is just... existing. Doing very basic, necessary things to survive like acquiring food and medicine.

What is the answer to that? "Sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you ever want basic medical care"? "Sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you ever want to avoid the grocery and pharmacy and get your food and medicine delivered downstairs, because you still have to leave your apartment and see everyone unmasked in the hallway, elevator, and lobby"? "Sorry, but it is going to be high risk if you want to ever leave your two-room apartment"?

Cloth masks and surgical masks aren't perfect, but they do make a substantial difference when everyone is wearing them. Even if it's only 50% effective, reducing R0 by half is huge and we need every weapon we can get. Unless, again, you just don't give a shit about people dying endlessly and this pandemic dragging on eternally.

Am I being unclear?  You are asking what my answer is, and I've said it multiple times.  Take your health and well being in your own hands and wear a properly fitted P95/ P100 respirator outside of your apartment if you're truly at risk and cannot be vaccinated or vaccine will not work (sounds like this is the case for you).   They exist, they are not protected commodities any more, they do not rely on others, they are backed by science, they could save your life.  Expecting everyone around you to wear a cloth mask to work in addition to yours at what is a low efficiency is a bad plan and was only the best solution only for a short amount of time in the early stages of Covid when we didnt have a vaccine and PPE needed to be allocated to those that were on the front lines and could not isolate.  Again, think of the car example... you WILL have exposures in your life, Covid and its variants are here to stay, which is the better solution for you?

Dollar Slice didn't say anything about cloth masks.  You keep implying that it is unreasonable to expect people to wear a low efficiency cloth mask.  Better masks are now easily available, not very expensive, re-useable and up to 100% effective.  Do you have any good reason why people should not be expected to wear an effective mask in shared and enclosed parts of a building, such as an elevator, during a pandemic? (In case you were not aware, the pandemic is still on-going, we are not yet in the endemic phase of this illness, although it is clear that that is what we will end up with.)

It was reasonable to expect everyone to wear cloth masks when high efficiency masks were in short supply and we did not have a vaccine...   100% reasonable and saved a ton of lives since it was better than nothing.  Now we have a vaccine that prevents severe illness and death by incredible amounts for the majority of the population 12+ including the most commonly highest vulnerability (old) persons.  I think it is reasonable where we are in the pandemic to expect adults to be either vaccinated,  accepting that they are taking a personal risk being unvaccinated (I think every adult should be vaccinated, but I concede that it should continue to be a personal choice/risk assessment until it is fully approved by the CDC),  or wearing a high efficiency respirator if they cannot be vaccinated and do not want to risk running into maskless people in the stairway scenario.  It really just makes sense that if you're a person who has a seriously high risk to take matters in your own hands... you can do that now, please dont tell me its inconvenient, because I've heard that story before.

But the children!!  Yeah, I've got 3 of them... I'm not sure I have a solution for the children other than to consider that Covid would have never required a solution if it only affected children the way the current data shows that it does.  Let's be real, the way that nearly this entire forum downplayed Covid in early 2020 would have completely played out if all we saw was flu like hospitalization rates of childrren like we have seen so far for Covid.   Im personally comfortable sending my kids mask free to school just as I was OK with doing that when equally dangerous influenza was around.  That being said, I'm in a 100% mask at schools state so they will be... but I would not be least bit shocked if they got it because honestly cloth masking is kind of... ineffective.

[PDXTabs]

Believe it or not, I've had an extremely stressful year with a lot of health problems, and this is about the last thing I need on my plate :-)

I almost know how you feel. I'm in the middle of a complex court case involving a contract which isn't my fault and I don't deserve. Meanwhile, the courts in my county are completely messed up from the pandemic and every month that the case drags on costs me four figures. But if I want to change the outcome, well I have to affect it somehow.

[HPstache]

Am I being unclear?  You are asking what my answer is, and I've said it multiple times.

I asked what your solution was for people in my situation with family members too young to wear N95s. I guess I missed your answer to that other than some strawman thing about how it's high risk to go to school.

I also pointed out that N95s aren't perfect, but you decided you don't believe me, which: *shrug*. They're really not. And most people don't know how to wear them. Medical professionals have to be trained and fit tested to wear them correctly. (Remember those pictures going around social media of doctors and nurses with their faces all marked up and bruised? That's from N95s being properly worn all day.) Plus they're not recommended for some people with heart and lung problems, which, hello, people vulnerable to COVID! It's just not a 100% universally acceptable recommendation that lets you write off 10+ million Americans as "they can take care of it themselves, so it's no longer on me to worry about it".

I realize that you've bought into your own idea so hard that you're never going to let it go no matter how illogical it is. You don't have to keep arguing if you don't want to, you seem to just repeat the same single thing over and over

I did answer your question.   I said to protect yourself from young members of your family because they will be exposed to covid at places like school and universal cloth masking is not something to bank on for them.  Or at least that is what I am trying to say.

I'm sorry, but you were the one who decided to, *shrug*, ignore the fact that high efficiency masks DO work tonthe degree of 100% and just because doctors and nurses who work in medical facilities got covid does not, *shrug*, mean the science of high efficiency respirators is faulty... or at least you haven't provided me that data that I asked you to provide me to show me otherwise.

Protect yourself .  You can.  There, I'm done saying it.

[PDXTabs]

That being said, I'm in a 100% mask at schools state so they will be... but I would not be least bit shocked if they got it because honestly cloth masking is kind of... ineffective.

Also, if you have ever watched the 5-11 crowd handle a mask they are super not careful with the outside (potentially virus laden) part. If I had any unvaccinated kids (mine are all 12+), and I thought that the virus posed a real threat to them, I wouldn't send them to school with or without a mask.

[HPstache]

That being said, I'm in a 100% mask at schools state so they will be... but I would not be least bit shocked if they got it because honestly cloth masking is kind of... ineffective.

Also, if you have ever watched the 5-11 crowd handle a mask they are super not careful with the outside (potentially virus laden) part. If I had any unvaccinated kids (mine are all 12+), and I thought that the virus posed a real threat to them, I wouldn't send them to school with or without a mask.

I'll have to Google it in the morning because I have never heard of the 5-11 crowd,  but I would 100% believe that my 4 and 6 year olds will be doing some pretty cringe-worthy things regarding handling and usage of masks come this fall...

[GodlessCommie]

I guess it's a case of irreconcilably divergent worldviews. It is baffling to me that someone refuses to reduce the chance that their neighbor dies, at a cost of minor inconvenience. Like, I don't even know where and how to begin explaining.

Assume *properly fitting* N95 mask gives you 100% protection. Let's set aside that few things are ever truly 100%. Say, my neighbor properly fitted his N95 mask 100 times, and made a mistake on 101st. Is it "their fault"? Technically - yes. Do I want this mistake to lead to their illness or death? Absolutely, emphatically fucking no. Am I ready to wear a mask to make sure that his or her mistake is not a death sentence? Absolutely, emphatically yes.

[DarkandStormy]

I guess it's a case of irreconcilably divergent worldviews. It is baffling to me that someone refuses to reduce the chance that their neighbor dies, at a cost of minor inconvenience. Like, I don't even know where and how to begin explaining.

People are assholes.

America breeds a special kind of asshole.

[HPstache]

I guess it's a case of irreconcilably divergent worldviews. It is baffling to me that someone refuses to reduce the chance that their neighbor dies, at a cost of minor inconvenience. Like, I don't even know where and how to begin explaining.

Assume *properly fitting* N95 mask gives you 100% protection. Let's set aside that few things are ever truly 100%. Say, my neighbor properly fitted his N95 mask 100 times, and made a mistake on 101st. Is it "their fault"? Technically - yes. Do I want this mistake to lead to their illness or death? Absolutely, emphatically fucking no. Am I ready to wear a mask to make sure that his or her mistake is not a death sentence? Absolutely, emphatically yes.

I'm not refusing to... I played by the rules, I wore the cloth mask indoors until I was vaccinated.  Being fully vaccinated is the best way I can reduce the chance my neighbor dies, why are you saying I am refusing to reduce the chances of infecting the vulnerable when I've done all the things?  Is there a chance that a vulnerable person will come in contact with an unvaccinated person in a room?  Absolutely.  My point is that we are at a time where universal cloth masking is the wrong plan to actually protect people, there's a much much better plan for this very low percentage of vulnerable persons who can't get the vaccine.

No one wants to kill anyone by mistake... but if you're making up scenarios, I'll say even if you're wearing a cloth mask you could still accidently kill someone there is no "making sure" when wearing cloth in front of your face, that's a joke.  Think about the car scenario, you are a vulnerable person traveling in a car with someone with Covid for 8 hours with the window closed.  You're wearing a P100 respirator which fails and they are wearing a cloth mask... does it make a difference?  Properly protecting the vulnerable is the best thing we can do at this point, and no one is talking about it.  I'm not an asshole, I just think I have a solution that keeps everyone happy and would prevent a lot of unnecessary death.

[PeteD01]

I guess it's a case of irreconcilably divergent worldviews. It is baffling to me that someone refuses to reduce the chance that their neighbor dies, at a cost of minor inconvenience. Like, I don't even know where and how to begin explaining.

Assume *properly fitting* N95 mask gives you 100% protection. Let's set aside that few things are ever truly 100%. Say, my neighbor properly fitted his N95 mask 100 times, and made a mistake on 101st. Is it "their fault"? Technically - yes. Do I want this mistake to lead to their illness or death? Absolutely, emphatically fucking no. Am I ready to wear a mask to make sure that his or her mistake is not a death sentence? Absolutely, emphatically yes.

I'm not refusing to... I played by the rules, I wore the cloth mask indoors until I was vaccinated.  Being fully vaccinated is the best way I can reduce the chance my neighbor dies, why are you saying I am refusing to reduce the chances of infecting the vulnerable when I've done all the things?  Is there a chance that a vulnerable person will come in contact with an unvaccinated person in a room?  Absolutely.  My point is that we are at a time where universal cloth masking is the wrong plan to actually protect people, there's a much much better plan for this very low percentage of vulnerable persons who can't get the vaccine.

No one wants to kill anyone by mistake... but if you're making up scenarios, I'll say even if you're wearing a cloth mask you could still accidently kill someone there is no "making sure" when wearing cloth in front of your face, that's a joke.  Think about the car scenario, you are a vulnerable person traveling in a car with someone with Covid for 8 hours with the window closed.  You're wearing a P100 respirator which fails and they are wearing a cloth mask... does it make a difference?  Properly protecting the vulnerable is the best thing we can do at this point, and no one is talking about it.  I'm not an asshole, I just think I have a solution that keeps everyone happy and would prevent a lot of unnecessary death.

1) Infection risk for an airborne disease (transmission by aerosol) is dependent on the number of infectious particles inhaled, with all else being equal.

2) Aerosol concentration decays in an exponential fashion towards baseline with distance from a nondirectional source. Hence distancing.

3) Baseline can be lowered by providing effective ventilation.

4) Masks (even cloth masks) decrease aerosol concentration at source and disrupt a possible directional component of the initial dispersion

Physical distancing, effective ventilation and mask wearing all are essential components of an overall effective exposure control - remove one component and aerosol exposure will increase and transmission will as well.
We will see very soon how this plays out by comparing outbreaks in schools with and without universal mask wearing.

N95 respirators are just masks on steroids (by the way, 95 refers to 95% filtration of the target particle size when fitted well, resulting in a 20 fold reduction in aerosol concentration) and permit, without increase in transmission rate, to dwell a couple of steps closer to the emitter, to enter a not well ventilated aera, and will mitigate the consequences of direct exposure to a (directional) exhalation plume.

It is all a game of probabilities and the different measures are not just additive.

[bacchi]

N95 respirators are just masks on steroids (by the way, 95 refers to 95% filtration of the target particle size when fitted well, resulting in a 20 fold reduction in aerosol concentration) and permit, without increase in transmission rate, to dwell a couple of steps closer to the emitter, to enter a not well ventilated aera, and will mitigate the consequences of direct exposure to a (directional) exhalation plume.

Exactly.

To clarify, the "95" rating is based on its "most penetrating particle size." An N95 might collect 95% of 0.3 micron particles (its MPSS) but that means it collects more than 95% of 0.1 microns and more than 95% of 5 microns.

Surgical masks don't look like they'll perform as well as a fitted N95, and they don't, but they had at most 12-25% leakage. I wouldn't attend a MAGA rally with only a surgical mask but it's better than going naked.

https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2009/10/14/n95/

[former player]

Best current standard is neither a cloth mask nor an N95 but an FFP3, which is the current recommendation for NHS staff treating covid patients and has been found to provide 100% protection.  FFP3 masks are available at a reasonable price from a well known internet supplier and can be reused after a suitable interval.  I don't like wearing one for long, but for necessary trips indoors (supermarket etc) it is not a problem.

[GodlessCommie]

I'm not refusing to... I played by the rules, I wore the cloth mask indoors until I was vaccinated.  Being fully vaccinated is the best way I can reduce the chance my neighbor dies, why are you saying I am refusing to reduce the chances of infecting the vulnerable when I've done all the things?

Given that Delta can effectively colonize the fully vaccinated, although for a shorter period of time, the best we can do is to get vaccinated *and* continue wearing masks indoors, and give people space.

And since you seem to accept the efficacy of both vaccines and masks, I'm at loss at what the point of contention is. It's not either/or: people with vulnerable immune system should wear the best mask they can, but also the rest of us should take reasonable measures to reduce the risk for them.

[PDXTabs]

Given that Delta can effectively colonize the fully vaccinated, although for a shorter period of time, the best we can do is to get vaccinated *and* continue wearing masks indoors, and give people space.

And since you seem to accept the efficacy of both vaccines and masks, I'm at loss at what the point of contention is. It's not either/or: people with vulnerable immune system should wear the best mask they can, but also the rest of us should take reasonable measures to reduce the risk for them.

For how long? Forever? Until the WHO says that SARS-COV-2 is endemic not pandemic? Until the CDC does? What's the trigger? I think that reasonable people can disagree on how long everyone should have to wear a mask and what the set of everyone is. Eg, England and Scotland currently have different mask mandates (or lack thereof). I don't, personally, believe that it is because one of them is evil or doesn't believe in science.

[Dollar Slice]

I would personally propose that now is not the time to give up on masking since we're in the middle of a huge surge of an extremely contagious new variant, but what do I know. Clearly since a few very privileged and healthy Mustachians are vaccinated and bored of the whole thing, COVID is fully over for everyone and it's TIME TO MOVE ON! Everyone else has to pull themselves up by their COVID bootstraps and start sleeping in a hazmat suit.

[PDXTabs]

I would personally propose that now is not the time to give up on masking since we're in the middle of a huge surge of an extremely contagious new variant, but what do I know.

For the record, I'm not saying that I'm opposed to mask mandates. Only that I'm not willing to condemn people for having reasonable positions that disagree with my own. Actually, I'm very reasonably happy with the current CDC guidelines. I consider them to be a reasonable compromise. They aren't exactly what I would do, but I'm not an epidemiologist and I'm happy to follow them.

[GodlessCommie]

For how long? Forever? Until the WHO says that SARS-COV-2 is endemic not pandemic? Until the CDC does? What's the trigger?

I'm not sure why these questions need to be answered now. Is the logic not solid, or not supported by best available data? If not, I'm happy to learn and not afraid to change my opinion. If, however, the logic is solid and supported by data, I don't see how length of time or lack of clarity on the future changes anything. We are in the middle of a once-a-century event. It's not like there is a rulebook sitting somewhere. Best we can do is to decide what's best here and now.

Same with England vs Scotland. It's not like they are immune to making bad decisions, even if they are not evil.

[PDXTabs]

For how long? Forever? Until the WHO says that SARS-COV-2 is endemic not pandemic? Until the CDC does? What's the trigger?

I'm not sure why these questions need to be answered now. Is the logic not solid, or not supported by best available data? If not, I'm happy to learn and not afraid to change my opinion. If, however, the logic is solid and supported by data, I don't see how length of time changes anything.

First of all, I think that we need to have that conversation now because over half of the country is very tired of wearing masks, and we live in a democracy. Getting this conversation wrong could easily lead to the democrats losing control of the house in the midterms, or the state legislature where I live, AFAIAC.

Secondly, I just wrote that I'm reasonably happy with the current CDC guidelines with regard to counties with low/medium/high/substantial transmission rates. I believe that you are trying to change my mind and arguing that we should have stricter mask mandates that the CDC is currently recommending. You are trying to change my mind, so it only makes sense to have that conversation right now.

[GodlessCommie]

Only that I'm not willing to condemn people for having reasonable positions that disagree with my own.

Telling an immunocompromised person "I wore a mask long enough, now take your health into your own hands" in, say, a professional environment would likely have repercussions. In a friendly or family circle it would likely case serious deterioration in relationships. It only looks like a reasonable disagreement because of the anonymity of the internet.

[GodlessCommie]

Getting this conversation wrong could easily lead to the democrats losing control of the house in the midterms, or the state legislature where I live, AFAIAC.

Yes. Except no one knows what "getting it right" or "getting it wrong" is, and where.

[PeteD01]

Given that Delta can effectively colonize the fully vaccinated, although for a shorter period of time, the best we can do is to get vaccinated *and* continue wearing masks indoors, and give people space.

And since you seem to accept the efficacy of both vaccines and masks, I'm at loss at what the point of contention is. It's not either/or: people with vulnerable immune system should wear the best mask they can, but also the rest of us should take reasonable measures to reduce the risk for them.

For how long? Forever? Until the WHO says that SARS-COV-2 is endemic not pandemic? Until the CDC does? What's the trigger? I think that reasonable people can disagree on how long everyone should have to wear a mask and what the set of everyone is. Eg, England and Scotland currently have different mask mandates (or lack thereof). I don't, personally, believe that it is because one of them is evil or doesn't believe in science.

Until COVID-19 has become part of the endemic deadly infectious disease background noise. It will be a combination of vaccine and disease induced immunity, deaths among the particularly susceptible, availability of treatments, and improved public buildings ventilation.
You will know it when you see it and one of the best indicators will be that discussions like this one will have stopped. People will have moved on after COVID-19 has slowly ceased to be a present concern for anyone apart from the medical professionals and the unfortunate remaining victims.

[PDXTabs]

Only that I'm not willing to condemn people for having reasonable positions that disagree with my own.

Telling an immunocompromised person "I wore a mask long enough, now take your health into your own hands" in, say, a professional environment would likely have repercussions. In a friendly or family circle it would likely case serious deterioration in relationships. It only looks like a reasonable disagreement because of the anonymity of the internet.

You are welcome to your own opinion, but I disagree. In fact, I believe that this is an example of the breakdown of civil discourse that plagues this country. Almost no one on either side of the political aisle seems willing or able to tolerate a different opinion on almost any subject. AFAIC this country is going to burn to the ground because of this issue (the breakdown in civil discourse - not the masks). It is almost as if the GOP is saying "let 'r rip" and the Democrats are saying whatever the opposite of that is and you're willing to lambaste the one moderate in the room.

[GodlessCommie]

You are welcome to your own opinion, but I disagree. In fact, I believe that this is an example of the breakdown of civil discourse that plagues this country. Almost no one on either side of the political aisle seems willing or able to tolerate a different opinion on almost any subject. AFAIC this country is going to burn to the ground because of this issue (the breakdown in civil discourse - not the masks). It is almost as if the GOP is saying "let 'r rip" and the Democrats are saying whatever the opposite of that is and you're willing to lambaste the one moderate in the room.

Once again, where was I wrong? Would denying  an immunocompromised person protection be acceptable in a professional environment? Family? A circle of friends?

Your argument is that unacceptable must be accepted, because otherwise the country will burn. Well, I'm afraid that if that's the case, then the country will burn regardless.
 

[PDXTabs]

Would denying  an immunocompromised person protection be acceptable in a professional environment?

Tell it to the CDC and the English government, which you claim to be unprofessional. I'm done.

[HPstache]

Best current standard is neither a cloth mask nor an N95 but an FFP3, which is the current recommendation for NHS staff treating covid patients and has been found to provide 100% protection.  FFP3 masks are available at a reasonable price from a well known internet supplier and can be reused after a suitable interval.  I don't like wearing one for long, but for necessary trips indoors (supermarket etc) it is not a problem.

I was incorrectly saying P100 earlier when trying to describe the 100% efficiency respirators used by NHS staff treating Covid, this is a good correction that the current recommendation for full protection is actually called FFP3 mask/respirator .

[ericrugiero]

You are welcome to your own opinion, but I disagree. In fact, I believe that this is an example of the breakdown of civil discourse that plagues this country. Almost no one on either side of the political aisle seems willing or able to tolerate a different opinion on almost any subject. AFAIC this country is going to burn to the ground because of this issue (the breakdown in civil discourse - not the masks). It is almost as if the GOP is saying "let 'r rip" and the Democrats are saying whatever the opposite of that is and you're willing to lambaste the one moderate in the room.

Once again, where was I wrong? Would denying  an immunocompromised person protection be acceptable in a professional environment? Family? A circle of friends?

Your argument is that unacceptable must be accepted, because otherwise the country will burn. Well, I'm afraid that if that's the case, then the country will burn regardless.

Now that N95 masks are available, would it make sense for a severely immunocompromised person to wear their own N95 mask?  Those provide much more protection than the regular masks we have all been wearing.  I haven't seen any studies on this but I would think a single N95 mask would provide more protection than two poorly made masks.  If it works for medical professionals dealing with known positive COVID patients, wouldn't it work for someone with a legitimate health concern? 

I agree with PDXTabs that we have (mostly) lost the ability to disagree respectfully.  For example, I was researching Covid vaccines and wanted to hear both sides of the argument.  Currently, I can't see many of the arguments against vaccines.  They may lack good data and solid science but I can't tell.  I would be much more comfortable watching them and seeing for myself that "this guy a crazy nutjob who doesn't make sense" rather than trusting the youtube or facebook editors who deleted the video because it doesn't support their narrative. 

[PeteD01]

Now, that N95 masks are available, would it make sense for a severely immunocompromised person to wear their own N95 mask?  Those provide much more protection than the regular masks we have all been wearing.  I haven't seen any studies on this but I would think a single N95 mask would provide more protection than two poorly made masks.  If it works for medical professionals dealing with known positive COVID patients, wouldn't it work for someone with a legitimate health concern? 

Yes wearing a N95 or equivalent is a class A recommendation for anyone at high risk or even not at risk in high prevalence areas - which is pretty much everywhere right now.
I´ve been wearing one for over a year, but to me it is nothing, having worn them almaost every day at work for more than 20 years.

[jrhampt]

I think we’ll keep having this go round on masks until we get serious about vaccine mandates for those eligible and until most of the kids can get vaccinated.  I don’t see the sense in mask mandates if we’re not also mandating the more effective measure - which is vaccinations.  I’m just tired of people not being vaccinated when there’s no good excuse and they’re CLEARLY hurting the economy and everyone around them.  My FIL’s facility is locked down AGAIN months after vaccines have been available because of an unvaccinated staffer who has covid.  At work we’re having to manage another spike in covid cases by turning off other types of case management.  For no good reason at this point.  It’s tedious. 

[bacchi]

I agree with PDXTabs that we have (mostly) lost the ability to disagree respectfully.  For example, I was researching Covid vaccines and wanted to hear both sides of the argument.  Currently, I can't see many of the arguments against vaccines.  They may lack good data and solid science but I can't tell.  I would be much more comfortable watching them and seeing for myself that "this guy a crazy nutjob who doesn't make sense" rather than trusting the youtube or facebook editors who deleted the video because it doesn't support their narrative.

Use duckduckgo.

[PeteD01]

I think we’ll keep having this go round on masks until we get serious about vaccine mandates for those eligible and until most of the kids can get vaccinated.  I don’t see the sense in mask mandates if we’re not also mandating the more effective measure - which is vaccinations.  I’m just tired of people not being vaccinated when there’s no good excuse and they’re CLEARLY hurting the economy and everyone around them.  My FIL’s facility is locked down AGAIN months after vaccines have been available because of an unvaccinated staffer who has covid.  At work we’re having to manage another spike in covid cases by turning off other types of case management.  For no good reason at this point.  It’s tedious.

I actually disagree with this. Carefully reasoned vaccine requirements in certain private and public sectors are certainly part of the overall strategy but one has to be extremely careful not to sacrifice the status of the vaccination to be a potential way out and to switch over to the safe side - never cut off the enemies escape lest you strengthen his resolve.
What we see today is no different than other large scale infectious disease disasters in the past. The psychology of the disease deniers is not that hard to decipher.
They are facing a sort of apocalyptic scenario in terms of having to give up cherished and soothing beliefs regarding the harmlessness of the virus and generally how the world works. They are really scared and their fear makes them double down as more and more restrictrictions are creeping up on them or are on the horizon while their numbers are shrinking with more and more of their crowd receiving the Mark of the Beast (vaccination, I am NOT making this up). They are losing the battle in their twisted world. All what needs to be done is to keep the hard core on the back foot and keep the path to the vaccine as easy and as attractive as possible. Remember, it seems from this side of the fence that there is this large number of violent people messing up the works when, in reality, they are not gaining ground and that loss of momentum is very stressful for them. They are scared, they are losing, they are getting sick, they have trouble keeping their jobs, they have to deal with defectors, whereas we only have to keep hammering away until attrition has done its job. It has always been like that with epidemics.

[Zamboni]

I couldn't get through most of this cringe-worthy page. Instead, I offer this scenario:

I am fully vaccinated teacher (got both doses in March.)
Somehow I managed to get a breakthrough infection this past week (timeline says probably helping an unmasked child).
Due to my other health conditions and the progression of my COVID symptoms, doc I saw today has recommended me for a mAb infusion . . . this has to be approved now at a secondary level since it is a limited resource, but I clearly meet the criteria.

So, what do you think?
Will I be approved to get the treatment?
Or will all the mAb infusions go to the unvaxxed assholes?
I should make a poll.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

@Zamboni - I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. I too worry about a breakthrough infection - I have an autoimmune disease & am at a very high risk. Here's hoping boosters for those at risk will be available imminently.

[jrhampt]

I think we’ll keep having this go round on masks until we get serious about vaccine mandates for those eligible and until most of the kids can get vaccinated.  I don’t see the sense in mask mandates if we’re not also mandating the more effective measure - which is vaccinations.  I’m just tired of people not being vaccinated when there’s no good excuse and they’re CLEARLY hurting the economy and everyone around them.  My FIL’s facility is locked down AGAIN months after vaccines have been available because of an unvaccinated staffer who has covid.  At work we’re having to manage another spike in covid cases by turning off other types of case management.  For no good reason at this point.  It’s tedious.

I actually disagree with this. Carefully reasoned vaccine requirements in certain private and public sectors are certainly part of the overall strategy but one has to be extremely careful not to sacrifice the status of the vaccination to be a potential way out and to switch over to the safe side - never cut off the enemies escape lest you strengthen his resolve.
What we see today is no different than other large scale infectious disease disasters in the past. The psychology of the disease deniers is not that hard to decipher.
They are facing a sort of apocalyptic scenario in terms of having to give up cherished and soothing beliefs regarding the harmlessness of the virus and generally how the world works. They are really scared and their fear makes them double down as more and more restrictrictions are creeping up on them or are on the horizon while their numbers are shrinking with more and more of their crowd receiving the Mark of the Beast (vaccination, I am NOT making this up). They are losing the battle in their twisted world. All what needs to be done is to keep the hard core on the back foot and keep the path to the vaccine as easy and as attractive as possible. Remember, it seems from this side of the fence that there is this large number of violent people messing up the works when, in reality, they are not gaining ground and that loss of momentum is very stressful for them. They are scared, they are losing, they are getting sick, they have trouble keeping their jobs, they have to deal with defectors, whereas we only have to keep hammering away until attrition has done its job. It has always been like that with epidemics.

Ok, but how many people have to die in the meantime?  And how many more days or weeks will I and others go without being able to see their fully vaccinated relatives in nursing homes where the willfully, deliberately unvaccinated staffers put them at risk?

[PeteD01]

Nursing home staff would fall in a category where a carefully reasoned vaccine mandate would be highly appropriate.

[Chris22]

For how long? Forever? Until the WHO says that SARS-COV-2 is endemic not pandemic? Until the CDC does? What's the trigger?

I'm not sure why these questions need to be answered now. Is the logic not solid, or not supported by best available data? If not, I'm happy to learn and not afraid to change my opinion. If, however, the logic is solid and supported by data, I don't see how length of time or lack of clarity on the future changes anything. We are in the middle of a once-a-century event. It's not like there is a rulebook sitting somewhere. Best we can do is to decide what's best here and now.

Same with England vs Scotland. It's not like they are immune to making bad decisions, even if they are not evil.

I would argue that it’s a huge huge problem. One of the main things that happened in March 2020 was the world shutdown without establishing clear metrics for what constituted an opening, leading to a ton of the strife we see now. I would be much more amenable to granting the government emergency powers if there was a clear definition of when they would expire. “You must do this until I say you can stop” is not how a representative democracy should run. 

[GodlessCommie]

I would argue that it’s a huge huge problem. One of the main things that happened in March 2020 was the world shutdown without establishing clear metrics for what constituted an opening, leading to a ton of the strife we see now. I would be much more amenable to granting the government emergency powers if there was a clear definition of when they would expire. “You must do this until I say you can stop” is not how a representative democracy should run.

Huge problem. Unless we recall that 4,300,000 people died globally; 600,000 of them in the US. And then it's a tiny problem. Our representative democracy has its challenges, but the response to Covid isn't it.

The world never shut down. Definitely did not shut down the US, where people kept applying terms "lockdown" and "shutdown" to rather mild measures that never approached either by a mile.

[Dollar Slice]

I am fully vaccinated teacher (got both doses in March.)
Somehow I managed to get a breakthrough infection this past week (timeline says probably helping an unmasked child).
Due to my other health conditions and the progression of my COVID symptoms, doc I saw today has recommended me for a mAb infusion . . . this has to be approved now at a secondary level since it is a limited resource, but I clearly meet the criteria.

Oof. So sorry to hear this, Zamboni :-( I hope you get the treatment you need and you feel better quickly with no lasting complications.

[Chris22]

I would argue that it’s a huge huge problem. One of the main things that happened in March 2020 was the world shutdown without establishing clear metrics for what constituted an opening, leading to a ton of the strife we see now. I would be much more amenable to granting the government emergency powers if there was a clear definition of when they would expire. “You must do this until I say you can stop” is not how a representative democracy should run.

Huge problem. Unless we recall that 4,300,000 people died globally; 600,000 of them in the US. And then it's a tiny problem. Our representative democracy has its challenges, but the response to Covid isn't it.

The world never shut down. Definitely did not shut down the US, where people kept applying terms "lockdown" and "shutdown" to rather mild measures that never approached either by a mile.

Call me careless, but we lost 29k people under 49, and another 97k between 49 and 64. The balance were, sorry…going to die soon anyways.

[geekette]

So once you hit 65, you’re just…worthless?

[Travis]

Getting back to Florida:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253437454.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/11/florida-ventilators-covid-hospitalizations/

Nearly every ICU bed has a COVID patient occupying it. The docs say it's unprecedented. The governor says it's seasonal.

[OtherJen]

So once you hit 65, you’re just…worthless?

I'll inform my mom, who turned 70 earlier this week, that she's going to die soon anyway. She should inform her employer and cancel the iPad that she ordered today as a birthday gift to herself. Ditto for my 72-year-old father, mother-in-law, and father-in-law. My aunt is about to turn 80. I'll let her know that her time is up. Ditto for a couple of dear friends, one of whom turned 90 this year.

I feel like I already had this discussion 18 months ago. I'm sadly unsurprised to learn that the lives of those past middle age are still deemed entirely expendable so that younger people don't have to inconvenience themselves in the slightest.

[Mr. Green]

I would argue that it’s a huge huge problem. One of the main things that happened in March 2020 was the world shutdown without establishing clear metrics for what constituted an opening, leading to a ton of the strife we see now. I would be much more amenable to granting the government emergency powers if there was a clear definition of when they would expire. “You must do this until I say you can stop” is not how a representative democracy should run.

Huge problem. Unless we recall that 4,300,000 people died globally; 600,000 of them in the US. And then it's a tiny problem. Our representative democracy has its challenges, but the response to Covid isn't it.

The world never shut down. Definitely did not shut down the US, where people kept applying terms "lockdown" and "shutdown" to rather mild measures that never approached either by a mile.

I mean, we could have just thrown people in jail like we did during the last pandemic a hundred years ago. The pass people are getting is about as lenient as it gets when you really think about it.

[GuitarStv]

I would argue that it’s a huge huge problem. One of the main things that happened in March 2020 was the world shutdown without establishing clear metrics for what constituted an opening, leading to a ton of the strife we see now. I would be much more amenable to granting the government emergency powers if there was a clear definition of when they would expire. “You must do this until I say you can stop” is not how a representative democracy should run.

Huge problem. Unless we recall that 4,300,000 people died globally; 600,000 of them in the US. And then it's a tiny problem. Our representative democracy has its challenges, but the response to Covid isn't it.

The world never shut down. Definitely did not shut down the US, where people kept applying terms "lockdown" and "shutdown" to rather mild measures that never approached either by a mile.

I mean, we could have just thrown people in jail like we did during the last pandemic a hundred years ago. The pass people are getting is about as lenient as it gets when you really think about it.

In a pandemic, jail seems like a dumb thing.  It's likely to just result in more cases, and in a group of people that the state is then going to be required to pay for as they're under state control.

This is a scenario where I think the free market approach would have worked better.  Implement fines for breaking rules.  No mask or mask worn improperly in a public place where mask mandates are in effect?  1000$ first offense and double the fine each consecutive time it's broken.  That sort of thing.