Author Topic: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?  (Read 12040 times)

Big Boots Buddha

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2017, 11:00:32 PM »
Seems this is Trump related as NN has already been gone for a couple years now. Internet providers have been free to do whatever they wanted and haven't done anything because, presumably, people would be pissed off and find another company, ask for another company to come into that market or stop using that service.

This is one of things where the market seems to be working, at least for now.

2Cent

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2017, 03:01:46 AM »
Seems this is Trump related as NN has already been gone for a couple years now. Internet providers have been free to do whatever they wanted and haven't done anything because, presumably, people would be pissed off and find another company, ask for another company to come into that market or stop using that service.

This is one of things where the market seems to be working, at least for now.
Until a much cheaper service which offers only the top 50 websites at full speed and the rest with limited speed. Good enough for 90% of users, but this makes it very hard for any other service to join that top 50.

MrMoogle

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2017, 07:28:39 AM »
Seems this is Trump related as NN has already been gone for a couple years now. Internet providers have been free to do whatever they wanted and haven't done anything because, presumably, people would be pissed off and find another company, ask for another company to come into that market or stop using that service.

This is one of things where the market seems to be working, at least for now.
Until a much cheaper service which offers only the top 50 websites at full speed and the rest with limited speed. Good enough for 90% of users, but this makes it very hard for any other service to join that top 50.
What if the FCC adds so much regulation that ISPs can no longer be profitable and we all lose internet.  You can come up with scary scenarios on either side, whether or not it's likely is another thing. 

I don't see how your scenario would make the service "much cheaper," since probably 95% of usage is already through the top 50 websites.

Just Joe

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2017, 07:52:36 AM »
I don't live or die by the internet. Like cable TV I can cut the cord until some other service appears that promises not to nickel and dime its customers.

Or - we collectively get our money's worth. My three closest neighbors could pay the jacked up price - but only one price - and share our connection.

The ISP looses two customers out of three.

I'd be happy to host the router and ensure its uptime.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2017, 07:57:03 AM »
What if the FCC adds so much regulation that ISPs can no longer be profitable and we all lose internet.  You can come up with scary scenarios on either side, whether or not it's likely is another thing. 

Except one side isn't completely divorced from facts. ISPs are profitable. Given the lack of competition, they need to be regulated like other utilities, which are also profitable.

Wexler

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2017, 08:47:07 AM »
Seems this is Trump related as NN has already been gone for a couple years now. Internet providers have been free to do whatever they wanted and haven't done anything because, presumably, people would be pissed off and find another company, ask for another company to come into that market or stop using that service.

This is one of things where the market seems to be working, at least for now.

NN is gone for a couple of years?  The current NN rules were adopted in 2015.  So, the opposite of what you said.  NN has been IN EFFECT for a couple of years.  I'm curious as to where you got the impression that NN has been gone for the last two years.  Can you provide a source for that statement?

The below timeline gives some great examples of the market "self-regulating" before and after NN.  Now that NN is going away, Ajit Pai has already indicated that he's not going to step in and enforce those prior 2015-2017 decisions against ISPs. 


https://lifehacker.com/what-happens-when-broadband-companies-self-regulate-1794710098

It's amazing to me that people are all "oh-the ISPs will respond to market pressure"  Have you ever dealt with a cable company? Hell, I'd rather argue with a health insurance company.  ISPs aren't going to respond to shit.

If your impression is that the market has been working for the last couple of years, it's more likely that NN has forced ISPs to change their practices.  I don't know if that's true, and that lifehacker article tells me that some ISPs were willing to see how far they could push the FCC.  But, the decisions seemed favorable to NN, and I think that it's a tragedy that these rules are going to be unwound.  There's a lot I won't forgive my fellow countrymen for after they voted for Trump, and this is in the top 5. 

I'm going to keep saying this: vote for Democrats, whenever you can.  Republicans have shown you that they won't protect the internet.  Ajit Pai wouldn't bother to wipe his ass with protests and internet comments.  Why should he?  He's not bound to do what the public wants.  The only way to change FCC leadership is to elect a Democrat to the White House.  All this anger right now?  Fine-but the right time to express that anger was in November, 2016.  And the next right time is November, 2018.  And if you didn't bother to vote in the last election, have a good, long talk with yourself and do better next time.  If you've never voted, register to vote today.


NoStacheOhio

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2017, 08:51:00 AM »
NN is gone for a couple of years?  The current NN rules were adopted in 2015.  So, the opposite of what you said.  NN has been IN EFFECT for a couple of years.  I'm curious as to where you got the impression that NN has been gone for the last two years.  Can you provide a source for that statement?

The below timeline gives some great examples of the market "self-regulating" before and after NN.  Now that NN is going away, Ajit Pai has already indicated that he's not going to step in and enforce those prior 2015-2017 decisions against ISPs. 


https://lifehacker.com/what-happens-when-broadband-companies-self-regulate-1794710098

I think another part of the lesson here is that we need to legislate some of these regulations, rather than letting agencies make rules that have sweeping effects over important stuff like the Internet. Hell, at a certain point maybe we need an International Treaty.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2017, 08:57:54 AM »
NN is gone for a couple of years?  The current NN rules were adopted in 2015.  So, the opposite of what you said.  NN has been IN EFFECT for a couple of years.  I'm curious as to where you got the impression that NN has been gone for the last two years.  Can you provide a source for that statement?

The below timeline gives some great examples of the market "self-regulating" before and after NN.  Now that NN is going away, Ajit Pai has already indicated that he's not going to step in and enforce those prior 2015-2017 decisions against ISPs. 


https://lifehacker.com/what-happens-when-broadband-companies-self-regulate-1794710098

I think another part of the lesson here is that we need to legislate some of these regulations, rather than letting agencies make rules that have sweeping effects over important stuff like the Internet. Hell, at a certain point maybe we need an International Treaty.
Agreed.  If it's important enough to regulate, it's important enough to have accountable, elected officials making that decision rather than unaccountable political appointees.  If you ask me, *no* agency should have rule-making authority, only enforcement authority. 

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2017, 09:08:45 AM »
Agreed.  If it's important enough to regulate, it's important enough to have accountable, elected officials making that decision rather than unaccountable political appointees.  If you ask me, *no* agency should have rule-making authority, only enforcement authority.

I understand some rule-making authority at the agency level. Mostly because you can't shouldn't legislate every detail of every little thing. It's also a good argument for having people who know what the hell they're doing working in/running the various important agencies (looking at you, Rick Perry).

2Cent

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2017, 09:16:13 AM »
Seems this is Trump related as NN has already been gone for a couple years now. Internet providers have been free to do whatever they wanted and haven't done anything because, presumably, people would be pissed off and find another company, ask for another company to come into that market or stop using that service.

This is one of things where the market seems to be working, at least for now.
Until a much cheaper service which offers only the top 50 websites at full speed and the rest with limited speed. Good enough for 90% of users, but this makes it very hard for any other service to join that top 50.
What if the FCC adds so much regulation that ISPs can no longer be profitable and we all lose internet.  You can come up with scary scenarios on either side, whether or not it's likely is another thing. 

I don't see how your scenario would make the service "much cheaper," since probably 95% of usage is already through the top 50 websites.
It would be much cheaper because facebook, google, and Netflix are sponsoring it. Facebook already wanted to give a facebook only free internet somewhere in Africa but was blocked because of net neutrality. So what you end up with is an internet where fewer people who pay a premium are fully connected and the rest will only use the big sites. So it will be very hard for any new service to come up as they would either have to pay a lot to get into the cheap/free bit of internet or have their customer base restricted to the people willing to pay more. That will hurt competition and innovation and will likely raise the price of full internet access.

ketchup

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2017, 09:24:11 AM »
Seems this is Trump related as NN has already been gone for a couple years now. Internet providers have been free to do whatever they wanted and haven't done anything because, presumably, people would be pissed off and find another company, ask for another company to come into that market or stop using that service.

This is one of things where the market seems to be working, at least for now.
Until a much cheaper service which offers only the top 50 websites at full speed and the rest with limited speed. Good enough for 90% of users, but this makes it very hard for any other service to join that top 50.
What if the FCC adds so much regulation that ISPs can no longer be profitable and we all lose internet.  You can come up with scary scenarios on either side, whether or not it's likely is another thing. 

I don't see how your scenario would make the service "much cheaper," since probably 95% of usage is already through the top 50 websites.
It would be much cheaper because facebook, google, and Netflix are sponsoring it. Facebook already wanted to give a facebook only free internet somewhere in Africa but was blocked because of net neutrality. So what you end up with is an internet where fewer people who pay a premium are fully connected and the rest will only use the big sites. So it will be very hard for any new service to come up as they would either have to pay a lot to get into the cheap/free bit of internet or have their customer base restricted to the people willing to pay more. That will hurt competition and innovation and will likely raise the price of full internet access.
This is the real danger.  Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc. already basically run the show even with net neutrality in effect; this would allow it to be far more direct and insidious.  Would it be OK if Maytag paid ComEd (my electricity utility) so that my rate was lower, but my refrigerator had to be a Maytag (or else pay a premium)?  I'd say no.  Maytag and ComEd might disagree, but they'd be the only ones.  Internet access is becoming as important a utility as electricity.  I can't conduct business without an internet connection.

I'm glad Facebook didn't get away with Facebook-only internet access anywhere.  That's terrifying.  "This internet connection brought to you by Facebook" would have been fine (Facebook still benefits with more people connected and better connected; that's the Google strategy), but Facebook-only would be incredibly antithetical to everything the internet stands for.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 09:27:56 AM by ketchup »

jinga nation

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2017, 09:40:17 AM »
I have a feeling that either 2 things will happen:

1. The BigTechGiants will start their own ISPs and implement paid priority lanes.
2. The BigTechGiants will buy the existing ISPs and implement paid priority lanes.

Invoking one of the Murphy's Laws:

3. Only an act of Congress will break up the monopolies in media and internet.

I don't see any other end state. Corporations are people and they have feelings and wants and needs. And they have all the money to lobby and buy the politicians that we elect. Meanwhile, over 300 Millions of us can't afford 1 lobbyist.

We've been divided by the wolves; slaughter time is coming.

MrMoogle

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #62 on: November 29, 2017, 10:12:22 AM »
Seems this is Trump related as NN has already been gone for a couple years now. Internet providers have been free to do whatever they wanted and haven't done anything because, presumably, people would be pissed off and find another company, ask for another company to come into that market or stop using that service.

This is one of things where the market seems to be working, at least for now.
Until a much cheaper service which offers only the top 50 websites at full speed and the rest with limited speed. Good enough for 90% of users, but this makes it very hard for any other service to join that top 50.
What if the FCC adds so much regulation that ISPs can no longer be profitable and we all lose internet.  You can come up with scary scenarios on either side, whether or not it's likely is another thing. 

I don't see how your scenario would make the service "much cheaper," since probably 95% of usage is already through the top 50 websites.
It would be much cheaper because facebook, google, and Netflix are sponsoring it. Facebook already wanted to give a facebook only free internet somewhere in Africa but was blocked because of net neutrality. So what you end up with is an internet where fewer people who pay a premium are fully connected and the rest will only use the big sites. So it will be very hard for any new service to come up as they would either have to pay a lot to get into the cheap/free bit of internet or have their customer base restricted to the people willing to pay more. That will hurt competition and innovation and will likely raise the price of full internet access.
Fair enough, it's possible, I still don't think it's very likely.  I just think there's a bunch of irrational fear on both sides.

MrMoogle

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #63 on: November 29, 2017, 10:16:08 AM »
On the other hand, Google is putting in fiber, so that may be the first step.  Personally, I can't wait for it.  I'm currently paying $50/month for 10Mb downloads with Comcast.  I would love some competition here.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #64 on: November 29, 2017, 10:19:56 AM »
On the other hand, Google is putting in fiber, so that may be the first step.  Personally, I can't wait for it.  I'm currently paying $50/month for 10Mb downloads with Comcast.  I would love some competition here.

I think this is the crux of it. In a healthy, competitive sector of the economy, regulators can use a light touch (i.e. focus on health and safety, legal accounting practices) and stuff generally works out pretty well for the public. Telecom isn't a healthy, competitive sector of the economy.

ketchup

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #65 on: November 29, 2017, 10:29:09 AM »
On the other hand, Google is putting in fiber, so that may be the first step.  Personally, I can't wait for it.  I'm currently paying $50/month for 10Mb downloads with Comcast.  I would love some competition here.
Fiber has been deployed in my area this year by a regional ISP.  They were only able to get around Comcast/AT&T "exclusivity agreements" (monopolies) by the fact that they are 100% fiber and not technically deploying either "phone" or "cable."  I dropped Comcast and signed up literally the first week it was available in my neighborhood.  I now pay $70/mo (free installation) for 1000mbps down and 250mbps up (they do have cheaper, slower plans).  Competition is good.  Hopefully Comcast gets the memo and notices people leaving and will actually do something about that.  I don't want one better ISP (though they are great; I had an actual script-free pleasant phone conversation with their lead marketing guy in our area), I want actual competition between ISPs driving service to be better and cheaper.  With "exclusivity agreements" being so commonplace in our country, it's unfortunately very uncommon, so regulation is key to not getting boned by the big ISPs.  Usually it's between zero and one cable ISP and between zero and one DSL ISP in a given area and that's it.  For me in particular, AT&T DSL in my area is a joke, expensive as hell for slow speeds, so Comcast was the only real option before, and as any current or former customer of Comcast can tell you, dealing with them is pretty similar to getting a root canal, except less fun.

jinga nation

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #66 on: November 29, 2017, 10:32:37 AM »
On the other hand, Google is putting in fiber, so that may be the first step.  Personally, I can't wait for it.  I'm currently paying $50/month for 10Mb downloads with Comcast.  I would love some competition here.

I think this is the crux of it. In a healthy, competitive sector of the economy, regulators can use a light touch (i.e. focus on health and safety, legal accounting practices) and stuff generally works out pretty well for the public. Telecom isn't a healthy, competitive sector of the economy.
It's amazing what a competitor can do. I am currently with Spectrum on an Internet-only 25 Mbps plan for $40/month. They're increasing it to $65/month after the 1 year promo to entice me to sign up for a double/triple play account. Frontier FiOS had a Cyber Monday offer for 100 Mbps internet for $30/month, 1 year contract, $75 installation fee. Told Spectrum to either match the competition or extended the existing plan for another 12 months. They said they're not allowed to go lower than $55/month. "Manager" said they're seeing customers move to the competition. Every 12 months I bounce back and forth between the two ISPs. There's always a deal going on.
I just wish Google Fiber or municipal broadband or a 3rd alternative existed. I've seen the power of that in London, where internet, TV, electricity, water, gas competition means price wars and efficiency gains.

MrMoogle

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #67 on: November 29, 2017, 10:43:11 AM »
On the other hand, Google is putting in fiber, so that may be the first step.  Personally, I can't wait for it.  I'm currently paying $50/month for 10Mb downloads with Comcast.  I would love some competition here.
Fiber has been deployed in my area this year by a regional ISP.  They were only able to get around Comcast/AT&T "exclusivity agreements" (monopolies) by the fact that they are 100% fiber and not technically deploying either "phone" or "cable."  I dropped Comcast and signed up literally the first week it was available in my neighborhood.  I now pay $70/mo (free installation) for 1000mbps down and 250mbps up (they do have cheaper, slower plans).  Competition is good.  Hopefully Comcast gets the memo and notices people leaving and will actually do something about that.  I don't want one better ISP (though they are great; I had an actual script-free pleasant phone conversation with their lead marketing guy in our area), I want actual competition between ISPs driving service to be better and cheaper.  With "exclusivity agreements" being so commonplace in our country, it's unfortunately very uncommon, so regulation is key to not getting boned by the big ISPs.  Usually it's between zero and one cable ISP and between zero and one DSL ISP in a given area and that's it.  For me in particular, AT&T DSL in my area is a joke, expensive as hell for slow speeds, so Comcast was the only real option before, and as any current or former customer of Comcast can tell you, dealing with them is pretty similar to getting a root canal, except less fun.
Yeah Google has started in my area, I don't know when they will get to me yet.  I will definitely switch when it happens, even if I lose some of my mustachian cred.  Across the street, there is another option, where $50 will get 60Mb download (ball park), I'm not sure why my neighborhood doesn't have that provider as well.  These are all local issues though and aren't going to be fixed (or hurt) by NN.

ketchup

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2017, 10:52:36 AM »
On the other hand, Google is putting in fiber, so that may be the first step.  Personally, I can't wait for it.  I'm currently paying $50/month for 10Mb downloads with Comcast.  I would love some competition here.
Fiber has been deployed in my area this year by a regional ISP.  They were only able to get around Comcast/AT&T "exclusivity agreements" (monopolies) by the fact that they are 100% fiber and not technically deploying either "phone" or "cable."  I dropped Comcast and signed up literally the first week it was available in my neighborhood.  I now pay $70/mo (free installation) for 1000mbps down and 250mbps up (they do have cheaper, slower plans).  Competition is good.  Hopefully Comcast gets the memo and notices people leaving and will actually do something about that.  I don't want one better ISP (though they are great; I had an actual script-free pleasant phone conversation with their lead marketing guy in our area), I want actual competition between ISPs driving service to be better and cheaper.  With "exclusivity agreements" being so commonplace in our country, it's unfortunately very uncommon, so regulation is key to not getting boned by the big ISPs.  Usually it's between zero and one cable ISP and between zero and one DSL ISP in a given area and that's it.  For me in particular, AT&T DSL in my area is a joke, expensive as hell for slow speeds, so Comcast was the only real option before, and as any current or former customer of Comcast can tell you, dealing with them is pretty similar to getting a root canal, except less fun.
Yeah Google has started in my area, I don't know when they will get to me yet.  I will definitely switch when it happens, even if I lose some of my mustachian cred.  Across the street, there is another option, where $50 will get 60Mb download (ball park), I'm not sure why my neighborhood doesn't have that provider as well.  These are all local issues though and aren't going to be fixed (or hurt) by NN.
They are local issues, but those local issues are everywhere, and are part of the reason regulation for net neutrality is needed.  If there isn't a competitor to switch to, the monopoly holder can do whatever they want without recourse.

If my grocery store starts only selling bruised tomatoes because they get them for cheaper, I'll go to the other grocery store.  If it was the only grocery store in town, I'd have to either go without tomatoes or eat crappy tomatoes unless I wanted to move.  Luckily, grocery stores in my area have plenty of competition, and tomatoes aren't as necessary to modern society as internet access (sorry tomato enthusiasts) so anti-tomato-bruising regulation is not necessary.

jambongris

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Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2017, 09:53:13 AM »
Interesting take on the issue:

Stratechery

The author is pro net-neutrality but agrees with returning the ISPs to Title I classification (he agrees with Ajit Pai - at least in this specific instance).

He also explains how changes to other facets of the American internet landscape  could be more beneficial to consumers. Stuff like actual competition between ISPs.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 09:57:50 AM by jambongris »

shenlong55

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2017, 11:20:24 AM »
Interesting take on the issue:

Stratechery

The author is pro net-neutrality but agrees with returning the ISPs to Title I classification (he agrees with Ajit Pai - at least in this specific instance).

He also explains how changes to other facets of the American internet landscape  could be more beneficial to consumers. Stuff like actual competition between ISPs.

I know your not the author of the article, but could you explain the logic behind this line because I don't seem to get it?

"Again, zero-rating is not explicitly a net-neutrality issue: T-Mobile treats all data the same, some data just doesn’t cost money."

To me that kind of sounds like...  T-Mobile treats all data the same, except in this one way in which they treat some data differently...  which seems...  disingenuous?

jambongris

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2017, 12:55:57 PM »
Interesting take on the issue:

Stratechery

The author is pro net-neutrality but agrees with returning the ISPs to Title I classification (he agrees with Ajit Pai - at least in this specific instance).

He also explains how changes to other facets of the American internet landscape  could be more beneficial to consumers. Stuff like actual competition between ISPs.

I know your not the author of the article, but could you explain the logic behind this line because I don't seem to get it?

"Again, zero-rating is not explicitly a net-neutrality issue: T-Mobile treats all data the same, some data just doesn’t cost money."

To me that kind of sounds like...  T-Mobile treats all data the same, except in this one way in which they treat some data differently...  which seems...  disingenuous?

Correct, I’m not the author.

If I had to hazard a guess I would say that the nuance they’re trying to highlight is that zero-rating certain content doesn’t give that data priority on the network during times of congestion, it simply doesn’t count towards your monthly data allotment.

For it to be a net-neutrality concern in the authors eyes, at least according to my interpretation, the zero-rating services would need to be paying T-Mobile for priority access such that their service wouldn’t be impacted during times of congestion.

Take YouTube for example, as I think they’re one of the zero-rated services. If the T-Mobile network is congested then YouTube videos will suffer just as much as the video your uncle Dave hosted on his own website. Whereas if YouTube were paying for priority access then T-Mobile would prioritize the YouTube video over uncle Dave’s.

Again, this is just my interpretation of the articles based on my limited understanding of the topics at hand (i.e. I’m talking out of my ass.)

shenlong55

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2017, 02:29:35 PM »
Correct, I’m not the author.

If I had to hazard a guess I would say that the nuance they’re trying to highlight is that zero-rating certain content doesn’t give that data priority on the network during times of congestion, it simply doesn’t count towards your monthly data allotment.

For it to be a net-neutrality concern in the authors eyes, at least according to my interpretation, the zero-rating services would need to be paying T-Mobile for priority access such that their service wouldn’t be impacted during times of congestion.

Take YouTube for example, as I think they’re one of the zero-rated services. If the T-Mobile network is congested then YouTube videos will suffer just as much as the video your uncle Dave hosted on his own website. Whereas if YouTube were paying for priority access then T-Mobile would prioritize the YouTube video over uncle Dave’s.

Again, this is just my interpretation of the articles based on my limited understanding of the topics at hand (i.e. I’m talking out of my ass.)

Okay, I think I understand the argument a bit better now.  I was kind of with him up until that point, but I have to say I disagree with his interpretation of net-neutrality if you're correct about it.  I don't think the term net-neutrality is understood by most people to apply only to the specific situation of prioritizing certain traffic during congested times.  Instead, I'm pretty sure that most people understand it as a principle that all data be treated the same in all ways (except the obvious exceptions for illegal content and such).  Which I think is why I feel that the statement was disingenuous.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2017, 07:34:58 AM »
Okay, I think I understand the argument a bit better now.  I was kind of with him up until that point, but I have to say I disagree with his interpretation of net-neutrality if you're correct about it.  I don't think the term net-neutrality is understood by most people to apply only to the specific situation of prioritizing certain traffic during congested times.  Instead, I'm pretty sure that most people understand it as a principle that all data be treated the same in all ways (except the obvious exceptions for illegal content and such).  Which I think is why I feel that the statement was disingenuous.

It's helpful if you remember the Internet is not a big truck, it's a series of tubes. Each packet of data is a water molecule flowing through the tube. Where it came from and where it's going are largely irrelevant to how it moves through the inter-tubes.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2017, 07:54:49 AM »
Correct, I’m not the author.

If I had to hazard a guess I would say that the nuance they’re trying to highlight is that zero-rating certain content doesn’t give that data priority on the network during times of congestion, it simply doesn’t count towards your monthly data allotment.

For it to be a net-neutrality concern in the authors eyes, at least according to my interpretation, the zero-rating services would need to be paying T-Mobile for priority access such that their service wouldn’t be impacted during times of congestion.

Take YouTube for example, as I think they’re one of the zero-rated services. If the T-Mobile network is congested then YouTube videos will suffer just as much as the video your uncle Dave hosted on his own website. Whereas if YouTube were paying for priority access then T-Mobile would prioritize the YouTube video over uncle Dave’s.

Again, this is just my interpretation of the articles based on my limited understanding of the topics at hand (i.e. I’m talking out of my ass.)

Okay, I think I understand the argument a bit better now.  I was kind of with him up until that point, but I have to say I disagree with his interpretation of net-neutrality if you're correct about it.  I don't think the term net-neutrality is understood by most people to apply only to the specific situation of prioritizing certain traffic during congested times.  Instead, I'm pretty sure that most people understand it as a principle that all data be treated the same in all ways (except the obvious exceptions for illegal content and such).  Which I think is why I feel that the statement was disingenuous.
Without NN, it's not just during high-congestion times that traffic can be (and has been) throttled.  The throttling is basically a way for the ISP to double-charge for the traffic they're delivering.

JayhawkRacer

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2017, 10:50:24 AM »

Sadly, an awful lot of our traffic gets routed through the US.  We're going to feel pain from this too, I suspect . . .

We invented the internet and we reserve the right to wreak havoc on it as our corporations wish.

Kroaler

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2017, 08:36:48 AM »
Good day to revive this thread!


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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2017, 12:04:58 PM »

GuitarStv

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2017, 12:46:03 PM »
Quote
“Your internet Thursday afternoon will not change in any significant and substantial way,” Michael Powell, president of NCTA-The Internet and Television Association, said in a call to reporters ahead of the vote.


Well, no kidding.  It isn't the state of the internet tonight and tomorrow that I'm worried about . . . it's what a long period of legal backroom dealings to prioritize and penalize companies will do to innovation and user's rights.  Telecom companies haven't really been very good at policing themselves in this regard historically:



MADISON RIVER:  In 2005, North Carolina ISP Madison River Communications blocked the voice-over-internet protocol (VOIP) service Vonage. Vonage filed a complaint with the FCC after receiving a slew of customer complaints. The FCC stepped in to sanction Madison River and prevent further blocking, but it lacks the authority to stop this kind of abuse today.

COMCAST: In 2005, the nation’s largest ISP, Comcast, began secretly blocking peer-to-peer technologies that its customers were using over its network. Users of services like BitTorrent and Gnutella were unable to connect to these services. 2007 investigations from the Associated Press, the Electronic Frontier Foundation and others confirmed that Comcast was indeed blocking or slowing file-sharing applications without disclosing this fact to its customers.

AT&T: From 2007–2009, AT&T forced Apple to block Skype and other competing VOIP phone services on the iPhone. The wireless provider wanted to prevent iPhone users from using any application that would allow them to make calls on such “over-the-top” voice services. The Google Voice app received similar treatment from carriers like AT&T when it came on the scene in 2009.

WINDSTREAM: In 2010, Windstream Communications, a DSL provider with more than 1 million customers at the time, copped to hijacking user-search queries made using the Google toolbar within Firefox. Users who believed they had set the browser to the search engine of their choice were redirected to Windstream’s own search portal and results.

MetroPCS: In 2011, MetroPCS, at the time one of the top-five U.S. wireless carriers, announced plans to block streaming video over its 4G network from all sources except YouTube. MetroPCS then threw its weight behind Verizon’s court challenge against the FCC’s 2010 open internet ruling, hoping that rejection of the agency’s authority would allow the company to continue its anti-consumer practices.

PAXFIRE: In 2011, the Electronic Frontier Foundation found that several small ISPs were redirecting search queries via the vendor Paxfire. The ISPs identified in the initial Electronic Frontier Foundation report included Cavalier, Cogent, Frontier, Fuse, DirecPC, RCN and Wide Open West. Paxfire would intercept a person’s search request at Bing and Yahoo and redirect it to another page. By skipping over the search service’s results, the participating ISPs would collect referral fees for delivering users to select websites.

AT&T, SPRINT and VERIZON: From 2011–2013, AT&T, Sprint and Verizon blocked Google Wallet, a mobile-payment system that competed with a similar service called Isis, which all three companies had a stake in developing.

VERIZON: In 2012, the FCC caught Verizon Wireless blocking people from using tethering applications on their phones. Verizon had asked Google to remove 11 free tethering applications from the Android marketplace. These applications allowed users to circumvent Verizon’s $20 tethering fee and turn their smartphones into Wi-Fi hot spots. By blocking those applications, Verizon violated a Net Neutrality pledge it made to the FCC as a condition of the 2008 airwaves auction.

AT&T: In 2012, AT&T announced that it would disable the FaceTime video-calling app on its customers’ iPhones unless they subscribed to a more expensive text-and-voice plan. AT&T had one goal in mind: separating customers from more of their money by blocking alternatives to AT&T’s own products.

VERIZON: During oral arguments in Verizon v. FCC in 2013, judges asked whether the phone giant would favor some preferred services, content or sites over others if the court overruled the agency’s existing open internet rules. Verizon counsel Helgi Walker had this to say: “I’m authorized to state from my client today that but for these rules we would be exploring those types of arrangements.” Walker’s admission might have gone unnoticed had she not repeated it on at least five separate occasions during arguments.

Kris

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2017, 12:53:15 PM »
Yesterday an acquaintance of mine on social media commented on a friend's post about loss of net neutrality by basically saying, "So, what is the deal with this exactly? I keep hearing people talk about it like it's a bad thing, but I don't really know what net neutrality is."

And this, my friends, is why the FCC feels completely able and entitled to screw us over. Because those of us who care about it -- especially those of us who care enough to bother learning what it means and actually act -- are still in a pretty small minority. And they know it.

Meanwhile, while that small minority is fretting about loss of net neutrality, the GOP-controlled Congress is busily finalizing the tax plan hoping people are busy looking in the other direction.

Sigh.

acroy

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2017, 01:14:41 PM »
I'll be the usual party crasher: Good riddance to another sneaky misnamed government-overreach power grab. The only good thing about 'net neutrality' was a good name & marketing campaign. The Net did just fine since the time Al Gore invented it till O admin 'neutered' it under a mis-applied law from 1934. Investment & innovation started tapering off immediately.

I do like this guy's analysis though obviously not his own belief on the topic
https://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/223495-the-shifting-world-of-net-neutrality/fulltext

"Regardless of one’s business, legal, or social opinions, it is clear the network neutrality debate is yet another example of technical and business change rapidly outstripping outmoded laws, while powerful social and economic forces are at play. The nexus of digital privacy, transnational data flows, and the scope of extraterritorial legal reach is yet another. We badly need updated legal frameworks that reflect current realities and that are sufficiently flexible to accommodate rapidly evolving technologies."

The move to FTC, requiring clear explanation of what you're buying (like any other consumer product), is awesome.

GuitarStv

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2017, 01:28:52 PM »
The Net did just fine since the time Al Gore invented it till O admin 'neutered' it under a mis-applied law from 1934.

 . . . except that it wasn't doing just fine, all of those instances I listed above happened.  Many of which were roadblocks to innovation.



Investment & innovation started tapering off immediately.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/title-ii-hasnt-hurt-network-investment-according-to-the-isps-themselves/

acroy

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2017, 01:43:33 PM »
1) . . . except that it wasn't doing just fine, all of those instances I listed above happened.  Many of which were roadblocks to innovation.

2) https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/title-ii-hasnt-hurt-network-investment-according-to-the-isps-themselves/

1) No, that is competition. ISP's will have to declare those under FTC rules.
2) OK, finances can be cooked to show whatever the chef wants.

GuitarStv

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #84 on: December 14, 2017, 02:08:17 PM »
1) . . . except that it wasn't doing just fine, all of those instances I listed above happened.  Many of which were roadblocks to innovation.

2) https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/title-ii-hasnt-hurt-network-investment-according-to-the-isps-themselves/

1) No, that is competition. ISP's will have to declare those under FTC rules.

Quote
The Federal Trade Commission will not be able to fill the gap created by the FCC’s abdication of
its authority and sector-specific mandate. After-the-fact antitrust and consumer protection
enforcement by the FTC cannot substitute for clear upfront rules, especially given that vertically
integrated broadband ISPs have both the incentive and ability to favor their own content or that
of paid “partners” over the content of rivals.
  - Terrell McSweeny (Current Commissioner of FTC)
 https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_statements/1293263/mcsweeny_statement_on_net_neutrality_vote_-_dec_14_2017.pdf




2) OK, finances can be cooked to show whatever the chef wants.

The people who we should trust with no oversight related to the internet services cannot be trusted to publicly state the truth?

AlanStache

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #85 on: December 14, 2017, 02:59:33 PM »
Its like each week is playing a game of "hold my beer" with previous week to see who can fuck shit up the most.

runbikerun

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #86 on: December 14, 2017, 03:03:38 PM »
I don't know why Ajit Pai is so eager to make sure future internet giants are more European, but he's certainly going about it the right way.

Kris

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #87 on: December 14, 2017, 03:04:38 PM »
This is probably everything you need to know about Ajit Pai, the FCC chairman who has been pushing to kill net neutrality.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/364884-fcc-chair-dances-with-pizzagate-proponent-in-video-promoting

"FCC Chair Ajit Pai appeared Wednesday in a video promoting his impending net neutrality repeal, dancing with Martina Markota, a video producer for The Daily Caller, who has a history of promoting the so-called "Pizzagate" conspiracy."

Just when I think I can't get any more fucking disgusted with this administration and everyone associated with it, they prove me wrong. Every single time.

GnomeErcy

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #88 on: December 14, 2017, 03:09:42 PM »
And now we wait for my ISP to block SlingTV because they don't like that I'm not using them for television.

On the bright side we'd eliminate another bill LOL

AlanStache

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #89 on: December 14, 2017, 05:03:48 PM »
...

Just when I think I can't get any more fucking disgusted with this administration and everyone associated with it, they prove me wrong. Every single time.

And next week is taking notes on how to top this week.

Just Joe

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #90 on: December 14, 2017, 08:00:32 PM »
I guess we'll have to break out the shortwave radios again for international news... ;)

jinga nation

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2017, 07:58:39 AM »
Yesterday an acquaintance of mine on social media commented on a friend's post about loss of net neutrality by basically saying, "So, what is the deal with this exactly? I keep hearing people talk about it like it's a bad thing, but I don't really know what net neutrality is."

And this, my friends, is why the FCC feels completely able and entitled to screw us over. Because those of us who care about it -- especially those of us who care enough to bother learning what it means and actually act -- are still in a pretty small minority. And they know it.

Meanwhile, while that small minority is fretting about loss of net neutrality, the GOP-controlled Congress is busily finalizing the tax plan hoping people are busy looking in the other direction.

Sigh.
The same handful of companies own the ISPs, TV, print, and online publications. There has been close to zero coverage of net neutrality on my local stations and newspaper. Talk about fair and balanced reporting.

This is basically herding the sheep single-file so that we can be counted and kept tabs on. Yu will receive the appropriate information at the relevant time.
Read ""Repent, Harlequin!" Said the Ticktockman" in Harlan Ellison's Paingod and Other Delusions. Read the other shorts stories too; I promise you they are fantastic.

Poundwise

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2017, 08:26:53 AM »

GuitarStv

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2017, 08:41:59 AM »
These people have some nerve. So much for caring about states' rights.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/11/fcc-will-also-order-states-to-scrap-plans-for-their-own-net-neutrality-laws/

We abdicate our responsibility for regulating these companies.  Also . . .  nobody else can ever regulate these companies since that's our responsibility.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2017, 03:52:18 PM »
I'm glad I subscribe to a small VPN service. It's provided me with a lot of privacy up to this point and now it'll be helpful in new ways.

bacchi

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2017, 08:17:41 PM »
I'm glad I subscribe to a small VPN service. It's provided me with a lot of privacy up to this point and now it'll be helpful in new ways.

Many VPN servers IPs are well known; Hulu, for example, won't let me watch shows when I'm on a VPN.

It'd be simple for an ISP to throttle VPN traffic too.

Syonyk

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #96 on: December 15, 2017, 08:30:35 PM »
I guess we'll have to break out the shortwave radios again for international news... ;)

I keep reminding people that about the only properly independent method of communications we have is HAM radio.  It relies on nothing but clear(ish) frequency ranges, and lets you literally talk around the planet on a few watts of electric power.

It seems useful. :)

BlueMR2

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #97 on: December 16, 2017, 05:39:08 AM »
I guess we'll have to break out the shortwave radios again for international news... ;)

I keep reminding people that about the only properly independent method of communications we have is HAM radio.  It relies on nothing but clear(ish) frequency ranges, and lets you literally talk around the planet on a few watts of electric power.

It seems useful. :)

I've been spending less time on the Internet and more on my ham rig...  With FLDIGI and MMSSTV free apps you can send pictures, do "chat" on PSK31, etc.  I've hit South America from Ohio with 10 watts of power and a dipole antenna made of speaker wire strung across my patio.  :-)

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #98 on: December 16, 2017, 07:30:29 AM »
I'm glad I subscribe to a small VPN service. It's provided me with a lot of privacy up to this point and now it'll be helpful in new ways.

They'll just throttle all VPNs unless you pay the VPN fee.

Just Joe

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Re: Net Neutrality is going to be dead shortly?
« Reply #99 on: December 17, 2017, 09:24:18 PM »
You won't be able to use YOUR VPN of choice, you'll only be allowed to use the VPN software that the ISP sells you for a monthly service fee. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Linux won't be an extra cost.

If you're a subscriber to ACME ISP you can only use the current version Apple and Microsoft or Android products. For security of course...  Maybe a bit hyperbolic but having Trump in the White House despite his behavior tells me we are living in a new age.