Author Topic: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.  (Read 6028 times)

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2017, 10:54:59 AM »
My brother is very intelligent, but he's kind of a dummy about some things.  When his daughter was a baby (like, maybe 3 or 4 teeth), whenever we'd get into the car to go somewhere, she'd get a baggie of cookies.  I asked "hey, why not give her some apple slices?" and his response was that children's brains need sugar and fat to develop and that they can't tell the difference between different types of sugar/fat.   

<sigh>

Glad to see those HFCS commercials worked. *eyeroll*. "Your body can't tell the difference!"
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SweetLife

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2017, 12:49:26 PM »
I'm not buying the "they don't know better argument". Unless they live in a cabin in the woods of Canada there is no way to avoid knowing that fried chicken as donuts are bad for you, especially a baby! They know, and they don't give a shit. Welcome to humanity.. I used to live in the liberal illusion/fantasy of "if only people knew us much as I do they would make all the right choices!" *read in most demeaning voice possible. Newsflash; no they wouldn't. Sucks for the kids, but parent's make dumb choices for their kids all the time. The sooner you learn to accept it the happier you'll be. The kids will just have to exercise it off when they get older I guess.
Hey hey hey ... living in a cabin in the woods in Canada AND still don't feed my baby crap!
lol...
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RetiredAt63

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2017, 01:10:20 PM »
I'm not buying the "they don't know better argument". Unless they live in a cabin in the woods of Canada there is no way to avoid knowing that fried chicken as donuts are bad for you, especially a baby! They know, and they don't give a shit. Welcome to humanity.. I used to live in the liberal illusion/fantasy of "if only people knew us much as I do they would make all the right choices!" *read in most demeaning voice possible. Newsflash; no they wouldn't. Sucks for the kids, but parent's make dumb choices for their kids all the time. The sooner you learn to accept it the happier you'll be. The kids will just have to exercise it off when they get older I guess.
Hey hey hey ... living in a cabin in the woods in Canada AND still don't feed my baby crap!
lol...

Come to think of it, I used to live in a log cabin in the woods in Canada too, and I didn't feed my baby crap either.
The measure of civilization is how people treat one another.

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Scandium

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2017, 04:26:27 AM »
My brother is very intelligent, but he's kind of a dummy about some things.  When his daughter was a baby (like, maybe 3 or 4 teeth), whenever we'd get into the car to go somewhere, she'd get a baggie of cookies.  I asked "hey, why not give her some apple slices?" and his response was that children's brains need sugar and fat to develop and that they can't tell the difference between different types of sugar/fat.   

&lt;sigh&gt;

Glad to see those HFCS commercials worked. *eyeroll*. "Your body can't tell the difference!"
To be fair they do happen to be true. HFCS is no worse than cane sugar. Or rather; cane sugar is as bad as HFCS. Just silly that somehow people decided "sugar" is "natural" and somehow not as bad. It's chemically identical!

RetiredAt63

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2017, 06:11:43 AM »
My brother is very intelligent, but he's kind of a dummy about some things.  When his daughter was a baby (like, maybe 3 or 4 teeth), whenever we'd get into the car to go somewhere, she'd get a baggie of cookies.  I asked "hey, why not give her some apple slices?" and his response was that children's brains need sugar and fat to develop and that they can't tell the difference between different types of sugar/fat.   

&lt;sigh&gt;

Glad to see those HFCS commercials worked. *eyeroll*. "Your body can't tell the difference!"
To be fair they do happen to be true. HFCS is no worse than cane sugar. Or rather; cane sugar is as bad as HFCS. Just silly that somehow people decided "sugar" is "natural" and somehow not as bad. It's chemically identical!

The three white crystals: sugar, caffeine, cocaine.
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Bracken_Joy

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2017, 08:13:02 AM »
My brother is very intelligent, but he's kind of a dummy about some things.  When his daughter was a baby (like, maybe 3 or 4 teeth), whenever we'd get into the car to go somewhere, she'd get a baggie of cookies.  I asked "hey, why not give her some apple slices?" and his response was that children's brains need sugar and fat to develop and that they can't tell the difference between different types of sugar/fat.   

&lt;sigh&gt;

Glad to see those HFCS commercials worked. *eyeroll*. "Your body can't tell the difference!"
To be fair they do happen to be true. HFCS is no worse than cane sugar. Or rather; cane sugar is as bad as HFCS. Just silly that somehow people decided "sugar" is "natural" and somehow not as bad. It's chemically identical!

Well, I'm really not feeling a biochem debate, but no, anything with a higher ratio of fructose will not behave exactly the same since fructose is processed in the liver and can be rate-limited, whereas glucose is processed widely throughout the body so long as you have enough insulin/glut-1/4 activity to transport it into cells. Glucose and fructose also cause different insulin responses within the body. Since things like movement can stimulate glut-4 recruitment to cell surfaces, but fructose gets glut-5 transporters, that also plays a role, because you can't "walk off" fructose in the same way for example a type 1 diabetic can "walk off" glucose to lower circulating glucose.
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Scandium

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2017, 08:25:21 AM »
My brother is very intelligent, but he's kind of a dummy about some things.  When his daughter was a baby (like, maybe 3 or 4 teeth), whenever we'd get into the car to go somewhere, she'd get a baggie of cookies.  I asked "hey, why not give her some apple slices?" and his response was that children's brains need sugar and fat to develop and that they can't tell the difference between different types of sugar/fat.   

&lt;sigh&gt;

Glad to see those HFCS commercials worked. *eyeroll*. "Your body can't tell the difference!"
To be fair they do happen to be true. HFCS is no worse than cane sugar. Or rather; cane sugar is as bad as HFCS. Just silly that somehow people decided "sugar" is "natural" and somehow not as bad. It's chemically identical!

Well, I'm really not feeling a biochem debate, but no, anything with a higher ratio of fructose will not behave exactly the same since fructose is processed in the liver and can be rate-limited, whereas glucose is processed widely throughout the body so long as you have enough insulin/glut-1/4 activity to transport it into cells. Glucose and fructose also cause different insulin responses within the body. Since things like movement can stimulate glut-4 recruitment to cell surfaces, but fructose gets glut-5 transporters, that also plays a role, because you can't "walk off" fructose in the same way for example a type 1 diabetic can "walk off" glucose to lower circulating glucose.

Eh, ok? I'm not seeing you dispute anything I said. I think you're agreeing with me? Table sugar has fructose:glucose in 1:1 ratio. HFCS can be made in the same ratio, and often is. So then you agree it's the same? I eat 1 fructose and 1 glucose molecule from table sugar, and the same from HFCS. The molecules are the same, my body would respond the same.

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4157

Actually, per that HFCS 42 had less fructose than table sugar (42% vs 50%), so wouldn't that be better?

surfhb

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2017, 08:35:47 AM »
Mind your own business, people!!

I smoked for 20 years and occasionally enjoy a Coke now and again.   I'm 15lbs overweight and my Total Cholesterol is 203. 

Best part is I enjoy life, don't sweat the small stuff and surf most days......I'll probably outlive all you mother fuckers!! :P


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Bracken_Joy

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2017, 08:42:16 AM »
My brother is very intelligent, but he's kind of a dummy about some things.  When his daughter was a baby (like, maybe 3 or 4 teeth), whenever we'd get into the car to go somewhere, she'd get a baggie of cookies.  I asked "hey, why not give her some apple slices?" and his response was that children's brains need sugar and fat to develop and that they can't tell the difference between different types of sugar/fat.   

&lt;sigh&gt;

Glad to see those HFCS commercials worked. *eyeroll*. "Your body can't tell the difference!"
To be fair they do happen to be true. HFCS is no worse than cane sugar. Or rather; cane sugar is as bad as HFCS. Just silly that somehow people decided "sugar" is "natural" and somehow not as bad. It's chemically identical!

Well, I'm really not feeling a biochem debate, but no, anything with a higher ratio of fructose will not behave exactly the same since fructose is processed in the liver and can be rate-limited, whereas glucose is processed widely throughout the body so long as you have enough insulin/glut-1/4 activity to transport it into cells. Glucose and fructose also cause different insulin responses within the body. Since things like movement can stimulate glut-4 recruitment to cell surfaces, but fructose gets glut-5 transporters, that also plays a role, because you can't "walk off" fructose in the same way for example a type 1 diabetic can "walk off" glucose to lower circulating glucose.

Eh, ok? I'm not seeing you dispute anything I said. I think you're agreeing with me? Table sugar has fructose:glucose in 1:1 ratio. HFCS can be made in the same ratio, and often is. So then you agree it's the same? I eat 1 fructose and 1 glucose molecule from table sugar, and the same from HFCS. The molecules are the same, my body would respond the same.

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4157

Actually, per that HFCS 42 had less fructose than table sugar (42% vs 50%), so wouldn't that be better?

Hmm, if you're talking about 42% then yes, I agree. But I was particularly thinking about HFCS55, which is what is in soft drinks, which is where people consume vast quantities of it. Whereas table sugar is 50%. So a 5% sway. Potentially small, but not when people consume huge quantities and kids are developing NAFLD and T2D.
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prognastat

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2017, 08:58:11 AM »
My brother is very intelligent, but he's kind of a dummy about some things.  When his daughter was a baby (like, maybe 3 or 4 teeth), whenever we'd get into the car to go somewhere, she'd get a baggie of cookies.  I asked "hey, why not give her some apple slices?" and his response was that children's brains need sugar and fat to develop and that they can't tell the difference between different types of sugar/fat.   

&lt;sigh&gt;

Glad to see those HFCS commercials worked. *eyeroll*. "Your body can't tell the difference!"
To be fair they do happen to be true. HFCS is no worse than cane sugar. Or rather; cane sugar is as bad as HFCS. Just silly that somehow people decided "sugar" is "natural" and somehow not as bad. It's chemically identical!

Well, I'm really not feeling a biochem debate, but no, anything with a higher ratio of fructose will not behave exactly the same since fructose is processed in the liver and can be rate-limited, whereas glucose is processed widely throughout the body so long as you have enough insulin/glut-1/4 activity to transport it into cells. Glucose and fructose also cause different insulin responses within the body. Since things like movement can stimulate glut-4 recruitment to cell surfaces, but fructose gets glut-5 transporters, that also plays a role, because you can't "walk off" fructose in the same way for example a type 1 diabetic can "walk off" glucose to lower circulating glucose.

Eh, ok? I'm not seeing you dispute anything I said. I think you're agreeing with me? Table sugar has fructose:glucose in 1:1 ratio. HFCS can be made in the same ratio, and often is. So then you agree it's the same? I eat 1 fructose and 1 glucose molecule from table sugar, and the same from HFCS. The molecules are the same, my body would respond the same.

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4157

Actually, per that HFCS 42 had less fructose than table sugar (42% vs 50%), so wouldn't that be better?

Hmm, if you're talking about 42% then yes, I agree. But I was particularly thinking about HFCS55, which is what is in soft drinks, which is where people consume vast quantities of it. Whereas table sugar is 50%. So a 5% sway. Potentially small, but not when people consume huge quantities and kids are developing NAFLD and T2D.

I think the 5% difference itself isn't the major impact, the largest impact is how HFCS has made it cheap to add in effect a type of sugar to everything. These days you'll find HFCS in things that in the past wouldn't have contained much or any sugar at all just to make the food more palatable or addictive.

Scandium

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2017, 09:12:17 AM »
My brother is very intelligent, but he's kind of a dummy about some things.  When his daughter was a baby (like, maybe 3 or 4 teeth), whenever we'd get into the car to go somewhere, she'd get a baggie of cookies.  I asked "hey, why not give her some apple slices?" and his response was that children's brains need sugar and fat to develop and that they can't tell the difference between different types of sugar/fat.   

&lt;sigh&gt;

Glad to see those HFCS commercials worked. *eyeroll*. "Your body can't tell the difference!"
To be fair they do happen to be true. HFCS is no worse than cane sugar. Or rather; cane sugar is as bad as HFCS. Just silly that somehow people decided "sugar" is "natural" and somehow not as bad. It's chemically identical!

Well, I'm really not feeling a biochem debate, but no, anything with a higher ratio of fructose will not behave exactly the same since fructose is processed in the liver and can be rate-limited, whereas glucose is processed widely throughout the body so long as you have enough insulin/glut-1/4 activity to transport it into cells. Glucose and fructose also cause different insulin responses within the body. Since things like movement can stimulate glut-4 recruitment to cell surfaces, but fructose gets glut-5 transporters, that also plays a role, because you can't "walk off" fructose in the same way for example a type 1 diabetic can "walk off" glucose to lower circulating glucose.

Eh, ok? I'm not seeing you dispute anything I said. I think you're agreeing with me? Table sugar has fructose:glucose in 1:1 ratio. HFCS can be made in the same ratio, and often is. So then you agree it's the same? I eat 1 fructose and 1 glucose molecule from table sugar, and the same from HFCS. The molecules are the same, my body would respond the same.

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4157

Actually, per that HFCS 42 had less fructose than table sugar (42% vs 50%), so wouldn't that be better?

Hmm, if you're talking about 42% then yes, I agree. But I was particularly thinking about HFCS55, which is what is in soft drinks, which is where people consume vast quantities of it. Whereas table sugar is 50%. So a 5% sway. Potentially small, but not when people consume huge quantities and kids are developing NAFLD and T2D.
I somehow don't think that 5 percentage point difference is what the banHFCS crowd is so upset about..

And if anyone go to such efforts to reduce their fructose intake from soda by a few percent, rather than just not drinking it and reducing it by 100%, they have their priorities a bit messed up.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2017, 09:40:56 AM »
And if anyone go to such efforts to reduce their fructose intake from soda by a few percent, rather than just not drinking it and reducing it by 100%, they have their priorities a bit messed up.

Not going to disagree with you there in the slightest. However, individual choice =/= public health policy.
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BlueHouse

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2017, 11:33:23 AM »
My brother is very intelligent, but he's kind of a dummy about some things.  When his daughter was a baby (like, maybe 3 or 4 teeth), whenever we'd get into the car to go somewhere, she'd get a baggie of cookies.  I asked "hey, why not give her some apple slices?" and his response was that children's brains need sugar and fat to develop and that they can't tell the difference between different types of sugar/fat.   

&lt;sigh&gt;

Glad to see those HFCS commercials worked. *eyeroll*. "Your body can't tell the difference!"
To be fair they do happen to be true. HFCS is no worse than cane sugar. Or rather; cane sugar is as bad as HFCS. Just silly that somehow people decided "sugar" is "natural" and somehow not as bad. It's chemically identical!

Well, I'm really not feeling a biochem debate, but no, anything with a higher ratio of fructose will not behave exactly the same since fructose is processed in the liver and can be rate-limited, whereas glucose is processed widely throughout the body so long as you have enough insulin/glut-1/4 activity to transport it into cells. Glucose and fructose also cause different insulin responses within the body. Since things like movement can stimulate glut-4 recruitment to cell surfaces, but fructose gets glut-5 transporters, that also plays a role, because you can't "walk off" fructose in the same way for example a type 1 diabetic can "walk off" glucose to lower circulating glucose.

Eh, ok? I'm not seeing you dispute anything I said. I think you're agreeing with me? Table sugar has fructose:glucose in 1:1 ratio. HFCS can be made in the same ratio, and often is. So then you agree it's the same? I eat 1 fructose and 1 glucose molecule from table sugar, and the same from HFCS. The molecules are the same, my body would respond the same.

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4157

Actually, per that HFCS 42 had less fructose than table sugar (42% vs 50%), so wouldn't that be better?

Hmm, if you're talking about 42% then yes, I agree. But I was particularly thinking about HFCS55, which is what is in soft drinks, which is where people consume vast quantities of it. Whereas table sugar is 50%. So a 5% sway. Potentially small, but not when people consume huge quantities and kids are developing NAFLD and T2D.
I somehow don't think that 5 percentage point difference is what the banHFCS crowd is so upset about..

And if anyone go to such efforts to reduce their fructose intake from soda by a few percent, rather than just not drinking it and reducing it by 100%, they have their priorities a bit messed up.
um, sorry to interrupt this debate, but I was talking about apple slices vs. cookies.   
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kayvent

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2017, 05:03:13 PM »
Mind your own business, people!!

I smoked for 20 years and occasionally enjoy a Coke now and again.   I'm 15lbs overweight and my Total Cholesterol is 203. 

Best part is I enjoy life, don't sweat the small stuff and surf most days......I'll probably outlive all you mother fuckers!! :P


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I hope you are trolling mate. Those are bad numbers. The cholesterol in particular.

craiglepaige

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2017, 05:13:04 PM »
Mind your own business, people!!

I smoked for 20 years and occasionally enjoy a Coke now and again.   I'm 15lbs overweight and my Total Cholesterol is 203. 

Best part is I enjoy life, don't sweat the small stuff and surf most days......I'll probably outlive all you mother fuckers!! :P


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I hope you are trolling mate. Those are bad numbers. The cholesterol in particular.

Yeah, I'm not sure if he/she is just messing with us...
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surfhb

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2017, 08:08:01 PM »
Mind your own business, people!!

I smoked for 20 years and occasionally enjoy a Coke now and again.   I'm 15lbs overweight and my Total Cholesterol is 203. 

Best part is I enjoy life, don't sweat the small stuff and surf most days......I'll probably outlive all you mother fuckers!! :P


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I hope you are trolling mate. Those are bad numbers. The cholesterol in particular.

Yeah, I'm not sure if he/she is just messing with us...

Nope.  Not at all :)


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gooki

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2017, 01:24:54 AM »
We don't care what you do to yourself. But if your one year old baby is 15lb overweight and smoking, then yeah I'll bitch about you being a crappy parent online as well.
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craiglepaige

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2017, 06:05:34 AM »
Mind your own business, people!!

I smoked for 20 years and occasionally enjoy a Coke now and again.   I'm 15lbs overweight and my Total Cholesterol is 203. 

Best part is I enjoy life, don't sweat the small stuff and surf most days......I'll probably outlive all you mother fuckers!! :P


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I hope you are trolling mate. Those are bad numbers. The cholesterol in particular.

Yeah, I'm not sure if he/she is just messing with us...

Nope.  Not at all :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm all for enjoying life and not sweating the small stuff, and I believe everyone in this forum thinks the same. But smoking for 20 years isn't "small stuff."

Are you healthy? I mean, I guess. Is that the discussion which we were having? Not at all, so kind of weird you responded to it in such a way.

Your opinion regarding your health, when compared to others is just that, an opinion. So maybe instead of making this personal, why not offer an advice regarding the ways we can help babies/kids when they are being hurt(physically and mentally) by their ignorant parents?
-The conqueror will always become a slave to his conquest.
-Don't ever mistake wealth for worth.

surfhb

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2017, 06:58:09 AM »
Mind your own business, people!!

I smoked for 20 years and occasionally enjoy a Coke now and again.   I'm 15lbs overweight and my Total Cholesterol is 203. 

Best part is I enjoy life, don't sweat the small stuff and surf most days......I'll probably outlive all you mother fuckers!! :P


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I hope you are trolling mate. Those are bad numbers. The cholesterol in particular.

Yeah, I'm not sure if he/she is just messing with us...

Nope.  Not at all :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm all for enjoying life and not sweating the small stuff, and I believe everyone in this forum thinks the same. But smoking for 20 years isn't "small stuff."

Are you healthy? I mean, I guess. Is that the discussion which we were having? Not at all, so kind of weird you responded to it in such a way.

Your opinion regarding your health, when compared to others is just that, an opinion. So maybe instead of making this personal, why not offer an advice regarding the ways we can help babies/kids when they are being hurt(physically and mentally) by their ignorant parents?

I quit several years ago.   It's an awful habit and I regret ever starting. 

Thought I made my point, opinion and advice clear:  mind your own business.    Not everyone looks at life through the same lens.   What you see as abuse may or may not be the case.   


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jezebel

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2017, 07:32:27 AM »
Mind your own business, people!!

I smoked for 20 years and occasionally enjoy a Coke now and again.   I'm 15lbs overweight and my Total Cholesterol is 203. 

Best part is I enjoy life, don't sweat the small stuff and surf most days......I'll probably outlive all you mother fuckers!! :P


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I hope you are trolling mate. Those are bad numbers. The cholesterol in particular.

Yeah, I'm not sure if he/she is just messing with us...

Nope.  Not at all :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm all for enjoying life and not sweating the small stuff, and I believe everyone in this forum thinks the same. But smoking for 20 years isn't "small stuff."

Are you healthy? I mean, I guess. Is that the discussion which we were having? Not at all, so kind of weird you responded to it in such a way.

Your opinion regarding your health, when compared to others is just that, an opinion. So maybe instead of making this personal, why not offer an advice regarding the ways we can help babies/kids when they are being hurt(physically and mentally) by their ignorant parents?

I quit several years ago.   It's an awful habit and I regret ever starting. 

Thought I made my point, opinion and advice clear:  mind your own business.    Not everyone looks at life through the same lens.   What you see as abuse may or may not be the case.   


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I have to agreed with this.  Bad parenting and a bad diet is unfortunate, for sure, but suggesting that it is akin to child abuse is not only laughable but truly offensive.

craiglepaige

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2017, 10:27:32 AM »

I have to agreed with this.  Bad parenting and a bad diet is unfortunate, for sure, but suggesting that it is akin to child abuse is not only laughable but truly offensive.

I'm sorry but I wouldn't call I laughable, I would call it a distant cousin to actual abuse. Is giving a one year old fried chicken the same as a kid getting beat by a horrible parents? Well no, of course not. But a one year old kid being given horrible un-nutritional foods, soda and candy will grow into more health hazards than one who is not, so how is that not abuse?
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craiglepaige

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2017, 10:34:23 AM »
Mind your own business, people!!

I smoked for 20 years and occasionally enjoy a Coke now and again.   I'm 15lbs overweight and my Total Cholesterol is 203. 

Best part is I enjoy life, don't sweat the small stuff and surf most days......I'll probably outlive all you mother fuckers!! :P


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I hope you are trolling mate. Those are bad numbers. The cholesterol in particular.

Yeah, I'm not sure if he/she is just messing with us...

Nope.  Not at all :)


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I'm all for enjoying life and not sweating the small stuff, and I believe everyone in this forum thinks the same. But smoking for 20 years isn't "small stuff."

Are you healthy? I mean, I guess. Is that the discussion which we were having? Not at all, so kind of weird you responded to it in such a way.

Your opinion regarding your health, when compared to others is just that, an opinion. So maybe instead of making this personal, why not offer an advice regarding the ways we can help babies/kids when they are being hurt(physically and mentally) by their ignorant parents?

I quit several years ago.   It's an awful habit and I regret ever starting. 

Thought I made my point, opinion and advice clear:  mind your own business.    Not everyone looks at life through the same lens.   What you see as abuse may or may not be the case.   


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Glad you quit smoking and realize how horrid it is ;)

That's the thing though - I did mind my business and the side effect of that was being mad at myself for knowing that a baby, who can't defend/resist/speak up for himself, is being given foods which are horrible for him.

I'm glad I spoke with my wife and she clarified that her brother had spoken up about it, therefore I didn't have to. Still sucks because they clearly didn't listen.  I understand the mind your business action, which I totally followed, but it doesn't make it right.

Maybe for you it does, not sure if you have kids. But I would not want to feed my son those types of food. They are NOT good for you/me. So why is it okay to feed a one year old those types?
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Pigeon

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2017, 07:56:07 PM »
I don't think anyone is saying it is a good idea to feed the poor child soda and other crap.  However , you giving unsolicited  parenting advice is highly unlikely to result in the kid getting fed differently but will probably result in more family tension and animosity.

Not all suboptimal parenting choices are genuinely abusive.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #73 on: March 30, 2017, 06:45:53 AM »
And maybe surfhb will be like Winston Churchill - he was overweight, smoked, and had a lot of life stress (being British PM during WWII must have been a bit stressful), but lived to a ripe old age (90).
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jezebel

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #74 on: March 30, 2017, 07:10:06 AM »
Not all suboptimal parenting choices are genuinely abusive.

Yeah, it's not really ok, it's not good.  I probably also eat more chicken nuggets and soda than I should.  But it's an affront to put poor diet/parenting in the same category of victims who have experienced the trauma of actual abuse.  Maybe we have to agree to disagree, but this thread really rubs me the wrong way.

Letj

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #75 on: April 02, 2017, 04:28:25 PM »
Not all suboptimal parenting choices are genuinely abusive.

Yeah, it's not really ok, it's not good.  I probably also eat more chicken nuggets and soda than I should.  But it's an affront to put poor diet/parenting in the same category of victims who have experienced the trauma of actual abuse.  Maybe we have to agree to disagree, but this thread really rubs me the wrong way.

I must agree that it is abuse albeit unwittingly. Children fed like this often grow up fat and unhealthy which they in turn pass on to the next generation. It then becomes ingrained generationally, particularly if the family remain demographically isolated and poor.  Poor eating habits can become psychologically damaging when the children have to deal with the trauma of obesity and poor health. Unfortunately, there's not much help for people like this because lack of education and poverty perpetuate the problem. It also doesn't help that we Americans do not have cultural patterns of eating that encourage natural eating rich in fruits and vegetables like Japanes and Mediterranean cultures. It's been replaced by commercialized fast food which is often so unhealthy. The rest of the world might be catching up though.

little_brown_dog

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2017, 01:19:59 PM »
Not all suboptimal parenting choices are genuinely abusive.

Yeah, it's not really ok, it's not good.  I probably also eat more chicken nuggets and soda than I should.  But it's an affront to put poor diet/parenting in the same category of victims who have experienced the trauma of actual abuse.  Maybe we have to agree to disagree, but this thread really rubs me the wrong way.

It’s not so much traditional “abuse” as a milder form of neglect. There is a spectrum of damaging behaviors to children, with physical/sexual abuse and death being the pinnacle, and a cascade of lower level offenses under them (emotional abuse, withholding education, etc). Neglect itself is a spectrum, ranging from literally not feeding your child or letting them live in feces (criminal) to more gray areas like purposefully feeding your child foods you know are not good, while simultaneously refusing to offer foods you know ARE good, as a matter of routine habit. This is different than parents occasionally offering junk food, or parents who frequently feed junk food because of circumstances like low income, lack of kitchen resources, lack of nutritional knowledge, etc. What makes it neglectful is that the parent knows it is a problem, knows it should be different, has the resources to make it so, but refuses to change the behavior. I wouldn’t call these parents in particular abusive, but are their nutritional behaviors bordering on neglectful? Probably. Saying this in no way takes away anything from those children who have experienced more severe forms of harm from their parents…we can and should see abuse and neglect on a spectrum. Otherwise, all behaviors become equal to health/quality of life, which of course isn’t true.

For example, there has been much debate about neglect of obese children, where some parents continue to feed them sticky buns, pizza, and soda routinely despite repeat calls from doctors to stop the behaviors. At some point, some providers believe the line crosses from poor parenting behaviors that require ongoing education to address, into purposeful medical neglect of the child. This is because the parent’s behaviors are directly undermining the child’s obesity treatment regimen (kind of on par with withholding medications from a child who needs them).  This child here does not meet this definition of medical neglect because they are not obese and on a medical program to fix it. However, if they were, and the parents were engaging in the same behaviors, then it could be.

LadyStache in Baja

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2017, 07:56:27 AM »
This sucks for the child, that's for sure. I worked as a teacher and was so disgusted by well-meaning parents who sent sweet yogurt drinks with cookies as lunch. For the science fair we made a display of various "healthy-seeming" snacks/drinks with a ziploc bag of the equivalent amount of sugar under each item to really drive the point home. I hope I made a difference.

It's one thing to give your child this stuff as an occasional treat, or dessert, or indulgence. But to do it thinking it's healthy is just sad for everyone.

I have to think that your relatives just don't know how bad soda really is. I know it's hard to believe in this day and age, but like Retiredat63 pointed out, first eggs were bad, now they're good. I think people get overwhelmed with all the information and just kinda block it out and look for information that supports their bias.

So as to the question whether or not it's child abuse, it's a really tough question. Is pushing your child to be a great piano player abuse because of the stress you're adding to their life? We all know stress takes decades off of people's lives. What about pushing them to achieve high grades? I think we have to look at it from the perspective that everyone's doing their best and find ways to educate and lend a helping hand.

Who knows why people beat their children, which we've all agreed is child abuse. I have to think they are all victims, really. I mean, no one does that and feels good about it. Maybe like .01% do. How to solve THAT scary problem? I don't know.

I agree with the above poster with where to draw the line. If they're on a medical protocol and directly going against that, let's call it abuse/neglect. Otherwise, I think we have to respect our individual freedoms. Otherwise what's the point? Let's just ship them all off to government-run boarding schools after they're born.

I mean, individuals who are close to the family should do something, but not the state. They should set an example. Talk about what they've learned about how damaging sugar really is.

I feel like these are a lot of words and I didn't say much. Tl;dr: it's a tough situation.
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golden1

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2017, 08:12:26 AM »
Calling feeding a baby soda and nuggets "abusive" is downright offensive to people that really were abused as children.  My mom and her sisters were repeatedly raped by her father as young children, and received many beatings with belts and other objects, but hey, at least they got good home cooked meals from the farm where they grew up.  I would go so far as to call this "neglect", but "abuse",at least to me, applies intent to cause harm or pain which this clearly is not. 

Letj

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2017, 09:06:54 PM »
Calling feeding a baby soda and nuggets "abusive" is downright offensive to people that really were abused as children.  My mom and her sisters were repeatedly raped by her father as young children, and received many beatings with belts and other objects, but hey, at least they got good home cooked meals from the farm where they grew up.  I would go so far as to call this "neglect", but "abuse",at least to me, applies intent to cause harm or pain which this clearly is not.

So if you beat or otherwise cause abuse without the intent to cause harm is it not abuse? I can tell you for sure that most parents who beat their children or otherwise cause them harm because of flawed parenting ideas have no intention to cause harm. In fact, they believe the opposite. That is, if they don't beat their children, the children will bring harm to themselves and shame to the family. They are simply using the method their parents and the generations before them use and often they are oblivious to proper parenting and clueless about child psychology. 

kayvent

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #80 on: April 05, 2017, 04:19:06 AM »
..
Who knows why people beat their children, which we've all agreed is child abuse. I have to think they are all victims, really. I mean, no one does that and feels good about it. Maybe like .01% do. How to solve THAT scary problem? I don't know.

Slight aside, what do you call child abuse? Does regular spanking or hitting count? I ask simply because, to the best of my knowledge, spanking/hitting children (especially under five) either occurs in a large minority or small majority of household.

LadyStache in Baja

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #81 on: April 05, 2017, 07:07:35 AM »
My made up statistic is not referring to the percentage of parents who abuse their children, but to the percentage of parents who abuse their children and enjoy it, in a sadistic way.

So the people who hit their kids need help and education (maybe! I am by no means an expert on this scary topic, which is why I'm raising the question), rather than just having their kids taken away. However for the .01% who enjoy it in a sadistic way, there's probably no saving them.

But to answer your specific question, I think there's a difference between "beat" and "spank". Not that that lets spanking off the hook. But there's an obvious difference.
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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #82 on: April 05, 2017, 08:03:15 AM »
Quote
So if you beat or otherwise cause abuse without the intent to cause harm is it not abuse?

Many, many parents believe that the only way kids learn anything is through the application of pain or suffering as a deterrent.  They aren't trying to cause permanent physical harm.  I personally think they are misguided, but I am not sure that someone who spanks their kids or washes their mouth out with soap is on the same level as someone who beats a kid hard enough to cause permanent physical harm.  In my opinion, no, this is not to the level of being abusive, and no court would ever prosecute someone for these punishments.  (I am personally very against corporal punishment of any form, but I am providing examples where people cause pain to their children without it being abusive.)

Honestly, I am not sure where the line is drawn legally, but I just can't get on board with the idea that providing substandard nutrition to a child crosses that line into abuse.  Abuse, IMO, implies that a child should be removed from a home environment in order to protect their welfare, and removing a child from an otherwise loving home in order to provide it better nutrition would potentially be much more harmful that leaving the child in that environment. 


prognastat

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #83 on: April 05, 2017, 11:02:16 AM »
Quote
So if you beat or otherwise cause abuse without the intent to cause harm is it not abuse?

Many, many parents believe that the only way kids learn anything is through the application of pain or suffering as a deterrent.  They aren't trying to cause permanent physical harm.  I personally think they are misguided, but I am not sure that someone who spanks their kids or washes their mouth out with soap is on the same level as someone who beats a kid hard enough to cause permanent physical harm.  In my opinion, no, this is not to the level of being abusive, and no court would ever prosecute someone for these punishments.  (I am personally very against corporal punishment of any form, but I am providing examples where people cause pain to their children without it being abusive.)

Honestly, I am not sure where the line is drawn legally, but I just can't get on board with the idea that providing substandard nutrition to a child crosses that line into abuse.  Abuse, IMO, implies that a child should be removed from a home environment in order to protect their welfare, and removing a child from an otherwise loving home in order to provide it better nutrition would potentially be much more harmful that leaving the child in that environment.

Sorry but this response has the potential to be very disturbing. First of permanent physical harm can be a range of things. Technically beating a kid until his arm breaks is only temporary physical harm as if the kid is treated at a hospital/doctor the arm can heal up without any permanent physical issues, but in my book this would be severe physical abuse.

There are many things that you can do as a parent that can cause permanent emotional and psychological harm with either no permanent or even temporary physical harm that I could easily consider abuse.

DoubleDown

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #84 on: April 05, 2017, 12:03:27 PM »
It's probably not worthwhile for this forum to get wrapped around the axle on what defines/constitutes "abuse." It's a semantic thing, and people who feel they were abused as children (particularly in the more traditional usage of the word, as in physical or sexual abuse) are going to be understandably offended when that term is casually thrown around to equate with feeding a kid chicken nuggets.

So, I suggest that we move past the definition of "abuse" and focus instead (if any more focus is needed at all) on the OP. I think lots of people have already made the point that calling another parent "abusive" for doing things they simply disagree with is probably counterproductive, and certainly not welcomed by any parent except the extremely rare bird who appreciates such criticism.
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PoutineLover

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #85 on: April 05, 2017, 12:21:56 PM »
I don't think I'd go as far as calling this child abuse, although it is sad and it will probably result in problems for the kid. People have different ideas of what constitutes a healthy diet and there is no consensus, so you can't just bust in and tell them how to raise their kids. They may not have the time, money or skills to eat a healthy diet, it's not that easy, especially if it's not how they were raised. I personally don't believe in entirely eliminating foods but I try to eat mostly healthy with a few treats. Bacon is fine, ice cream is fine, doughnuts are fine. Just not all of them every day. Sugar and fat and carbs are all fine, demonizing food isn't helpful. Organic is a bullshit marketing term and doesn't make food healthier. Eating lots of veggies and fruits and "whole foods" that I cook at home is how I choose to feed myself and I'd say my diet is healthier than most, but I can only control what goes in my own mouth. Luckily my parents taught me good habits as a child. However, I've also babysat kids who ate nothing but junk and I stayed out of it because
1-it's not my place to judge
2-maybe they do eat healthy stuff I don't see it
3-at least they are getting fed
4-my saying something wasn't likely to change anything
I'd recommend modeling healthy eating habits and offering healthy foods, but preaching or blaming the parents will only alienate them and it won't help. It sucks, but it's the truth.
P.S. whoever compared sugar to cocaine also has messed up ideas about food.

golden1

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #86 on: April 05, 2017, 12:42:54 PM »
Hey, I was not trying to justify hitting or hurting a kid as a sound parental practice.  I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of the fact that some systems still allow corporal punishment in schools but yet we want to call giving a baby soda and fried chicken abuse.  It just seems over the top to me. 

http://neatoday.org/2016/10/17/corporal-punishment-in-schools/

PizzaSteve

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #87 on: April 05, 2017, 12:46:43 PM »
We used tonteach something called Home Economics in the schools.

Sadly the 3-R emphasis has gutted practical matters, resulting in a lot of stupid, passive consumers, poor drivers, etc.  Wonder how that happened and who benefits?
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RetiredAt63

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2017, 10:32:46 AM »

P.S. whoever compared sugar to cocaine also has messed up ideas about food.

That may have been me - three white crystals, sugar, caffeine and cocaine.  All are naturally occurring plant chemicals, none occur naturally as white crystals.  And yes, I know sugar is not an alkaloid, and it is not there to protect the plant from herbivores.   But, each has major physiological effects.  Someone suffering from "adult onset" diabetes at 12 might think that the first one is not a great nutrient.  We basically think cocaine is worse than caffeine because we take the caffeine as a plant infusion (coffee, tea, etc.) but we don't take cocaine by chewing coca leaves (the traditional method), or drinking the original coca-cola (yes it had cocaine).  And let's not forget that drug laws change, it was perfectly legal for Sherlock Holmes to use cocaine to sharpen his thinking, jut like students now use high-caffeine drinks to prep for exams.
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PoutineLover

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2017, 02:50:20 PM »

P.S. whoever compared sugar to cocaine also has messed up ideas about food.

That may have been me - three white crystals, sugar, caffeine and cocaine.  All are naturally occurring plant chemicals, none occur naturally as white crystals.  And yes, I know sugar is not an alkaloid, and it is not there to protect the plant from herbivores.   But, each has major physiological effects.  Someone suffering from "adult onset" diabetes at 12 might think that the first one is not a great nutrient.  We basically think cocaine is worse than caffeine because we take the caffeine as a plant infusion (coffee, tea, etc.) but we don't take cocaine by chewing coca leaves (the traditional method), or drinking the original coca-cola (yes it had cocaine).  And let's not forget that drug laws change, it was perfectly legal for Sherlock Holmes to use cocaine to sharpen his thinking, jut like students now use high-caffeine drinks to prep for exams.

Also wanted to mention....sugar addiction is a real thing. The more sweet stuff you eat, the more tolerance you develop to it. People who routinely eat tons of sugar often find sickeningly sweet things delicious, whereas others who eat less sugar can't stand more than a few bites. They realize they eat alot of sugar, but the problem is, things don't taste sweet or palatable to them unless they have high doses of the stuff. 1 teaspoon of sugar in tea/coffee is plenty for someone who eats a low sugar diet and they find the beverage very good. A sugar addict will need quadruple the amount to achieve the same level of palatability. It's frightening how the concepts of tolerance that we apply to alcohol or drugs also apply to sugar.

I slowly weaned myself off a higher sugar diet to a low sugar lifestyle where I now try to keep my consumption within the WHO guidelines (6 or fewer tsps a day). At first, achieving this was near impossible because 1) Sugar is EVERYWHERE and in high doses, and 2) everything that isn't sweet doesn't taste very good to you. One small chai from starbucks is my whole allotment of sugar for the day. I was able to do it slowly over time, but it took a masters degree, lots of money and time for home cooking, reading nutrition labels constantly, and a willingness to suck it up and readjust my tastebuds to less palatable food, to do it.

Absolutely - sugar is on the same spectrum as cocaine in my opinion.
It wasn't your comment I was referring to, it was Moustaches. I know excessive sugar isn't good for you, but I don't think it is really comparable to cocaine. Sugar can be part of a healthy diet, but limiting added sugars is a good idea. Cocaine can be way more harmful and should really only be used with extreme caution and definitely not be regularly consumed. I think that fear around food contributes to many eating disorders and unhealthy habits, and people are so inundated with conflicting messaged that they get confused about what is good or bad. For example, some people think bananas are bad, because they have lots of sugar, but they are fruits, and can be eaten without worry. Nutrition information is sometimes so confusing to so many people that they can't figure out if something is a good choice or not so they default to "oh well gonna die from something anyway, may as well enjoy it while it lasts". While others restrict their diets so much that they end up orthorexic with phobias of food and super restrictive diets. It's not that hard to eat a balanced diet with some common sense and education, but nutrition has become such a huge business and source of stress.

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2017, 04:09:06 PM »
As a former CPS worker I can tell you that what they fed the baby is not child abuse. A crappy choice for sure but abuse no.  Now I had a case once where the Mom had a low IQ and so did not know that she was starving her kids slowly. All 3 never developed well physically or mentally and ended up with foster homes. It was not intentional but she just did not have the mental capacity to understand the amount they should be eating. They were so hungry that they would eat out of garbage cans if given the opportunity.

Christof

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2017, 04:56:27 PM »
people are so inundated with conflicting messaged that they get confused about what is good or bad. For example, some people think bananas are bad, because they have lots of sugar, but they are fruits, and can be eaten without worry.

To be honest, you are just proving the point that people get conflicting messages. Fruits are not healthy because they are fruits. You can't eat plenty of them without suffering from the same effects of drinking soda. Some fruits contain more fructose, others more glucose. Some have more fibers, others more water. Some are more acidy than others. Eating a few pounds of bananas will give you different results from a few pounds of water melon or a few pounds of tomatoes. All fruit. A few pounds is likely too much for any of them.

Nothing is healthy or un-healthy by itself. It depends on the quantities you consume, the time you do so, what else you consume, what you do and what your body expects (and probably many more factors).

Healthy or unhealthy food is a category that people invented to not having to think. It's great as an approximation. Eat mostly this and you eat healthy, eat mostly that and you eat unhealthy. But that doesn't make each item on this list either healthy or unhealthy.

Not to mention that healthy should not be your only reason as that totally neglects the environmental impact. Apples have more fructose than bananas. But in Germany, where I live, apples are local, bananas need to be shipped from far away.

kayvent

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #92 on: April 20, 2017, 05:07:11 PM »

P.S. whoever compared sugar to cocaine also has messed up ideas about food.

That may have been me - three white crystals, sugar, caffeine and cocaine.  All are naturally occurring plant chemicals, none occur naturally as white crystals.  And yes, I know sugar is not an alkaloid, and it is not there to protect the plant from herbivores.   But, each has major physiological effects.  Someone suffering from "adult onset" diabetes at 12 might think that the first one is not a great nutrient.  We basically think cocaine is worse than caffeine because we take the caffeine as a plant infusion (coffee, tea, etc.) but we don't take cocaine by chewing coca leaves (the traditional method), or drinking the original coca-cola (yes it had cocaine).  And let's not forget that drug laws change, it was perfectly legal for Sherlock Holmes to use cocaine to sharpen his thinking, jut like students now use high-caffeine drinks to prep for exams.

That is a novel and interesting way to look at this. Also, CAFFEINE IS WHITE!!!???

Christof

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #93 on: April 20, 2017, 05:13:11 PM »
Here's what caffeine looks like:

http://www.organic-creations.com/dry-powders/147-caffeine-crystals

Thinking about it, that's a lot cheaper than coffee. 1/48th of a tea spoon is one cup of coffee... Hmm...

kayvent

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #94 on: April 20, 2017, 07:08:47 PM »
Here's what caffeine looks like:

http://www.organic-creations.com/dry-powders/147-caffeine-crystals

Thinking about it, that's a lot cheaper than coffee. 1/48th of a tea spoon is one cup of coffee... Hmm...

I'm tempted.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #95 on: April 23, 2017, 05:18:15 PM »
Caffeine extraction was a standard organic chemistry lab back when - may still be. We used tea but yes, white crystals.  Caffeine and cocaine are both alkaloids that deter insects.  Who knows, if things had gone differently the cocaine might still be in Coca-Cola and caffeine might be the illegal alkaloid. 😊
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PoutineLover

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Re: Need to vent... Child malnourishment.
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2017, 09:00:35 AM »
people are so inundated with conflicting messaged that they get confused about what is good or bad. For example, some people think bananas are bad, because they have lots of sugar, but they are fruits, and can be eaten without worry.

To be honest, you are just proving the point that people get conflicting messages. Fruits are not healthy because they are fruits. You can't eat plenty of them without suffering from the same effects of drinking soda. Some fruits contain more fructose, others more glucose. Some have more fibers, others more water. Some are more acidy than others. Eating a few pounds of bananas will give you different results from a few pounds of water melon or a few pounds of tomatoes. All fruit. A few pounds is likely too much for any of them.

Nothing is healthy or un-healthy by itself. It depends on the quantities you consume, the time you do so, what else you consume, what you do and what your body expects (and probably many more factors).

Healthy or unhealthy food is a category that people invented to not having to think. It's great as an approximation. Eat mostly this and you eat healthy, eat mostly that and you eat unhealthy. But that doesn't make each item on this list either healthy or unhealthy.

Not to mention that healthy should not be your only reason as that totally neglects the environmental impact. Apples have more fructose than bananas. But in Germany, where I live, apples are local, bananas need to be shipped from far away.
I didn't mean eat unlimited amounts of anything. I mean you can eat anything in moderation, having a fear of certain foods to the point of excluding them from the diet is the problem. I wouldn't go eat 5 bananas at once, but 1 is fine. Eating a bit of whatever you want is ok, but making any single food too big a proportion of the diet is unhealthy. I'm not a fan of pop, but if I have it once in a while it's not a big deal. I go by the idea that you should eat a variety of foods, not too much or too little and mostly plants - Michael Pollen. (maybe slightly misquoted but you get the idea) I just don't like seeing stuff like "eat this every day it's a superfood" or "don't eat this, its bad for you".
There are no healthy or unhealthy foods just healthy or unhealthy diets, there I agree with you. Obviously people with health issues and allergies have to adapt to those conditions though. Eating local is good in theory, but here in Montreal it's often hard to find local stuff in the winter. I do my best to eat seasonally, but at a certain point you have to accept that a lot of food is going to be imported.