Author Topic: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests  (Read 1635 times)

rob in cal

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covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« on: June 04, 2020, 10:44:04 AM »
  It does seem in some photos that while in many cases masks are being worn by protestors, in a lot of cases there is very little social distancing going on, plus probably a lot of talking and perhaps shouting with people very close to each other. Especially with many of these protests occurring in dense urban areas that have been hard hit by the virus, one wonders if this could lead to a new upsurge of cases, and if it doesn't what does that tell us about the need for social distancing in general right now?

Kris

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2020, 11:07:02 AM »
I was listening to a health commissioner yesterday, who also said that tear gas heightens the risk of Covid, because it irritates/damages the nasal and throat passages and lungs, and also because of increased coughing and mucus/saliva production.

dandarc

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2020, 11:16:22 AM »
one wonders if this could lead to a new upsurge of cases, and if it doesn't what does that tell us about the need for social distancing in general right now?
I'd bet on the former. The latter would actually be much better news, so I'm hoping that turns out to be right.

Important to keep in mind that Covid-19 is only one of many risks impacting protesters. Protesters are certainly aware of that risk along with the many others. The issue is that important that the benefits far outweighs all the risks for many, many people.

Linea_Norway

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2020, 11:05:23 PM »
one wonders if this could lead to a new upsurge of cases, and if it doesn't what does that tell us about the need for social distancing in general right now?
I'd bet on the former. The latter would actually be much better news, so I'm hoping that turns out to be right.

Important to keep in mind that Covid-19 is only one of many risks impacting protesters. Protesters are certainly aware of that risk along with the many others. The issue is that important that the benefits far outweighs all the risks for many, many people.

Yes, it is a big risk factor for the virus. Here in Norway the health advisor of the governement complained about our local demonstration against racism. But the people protesting must mean the cause is worth it. Unfortunately, they will be harder hit by the virus, as well as their families, schools and work places. Ideally they should go into voluntary quaranteen afterwards.

I wonder if the protests could have been done by marching in a pack where all people kept minimum 2 meters (6-7 feet) distance in all directions. The row of protesters would have been impressively long. But they wouldn't have been able to make the same sound. And it wouldn't have been the same to listen to the speaker, if there is any.

Imma

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2020, 01:54:48 AM »
We had a mass protest on June 1st in Amsterdam that many people were concerned about. It was very peaceful but it was also very crowded, people did not keep their distance at all.

11 days on there is no spike in new cases at all, the numbers are still going down. According to government estimates about 1700 people in the country are contagious right now (0,0001% of the population) and none of them went to the protest. Of course this could have ended differently if only one contagious person had attended, but thankfully they didn't.

Schaefer Light

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2020, 06:00:59 AM »
I think it's hilarious that people were outraged about the stay-at-home order protests that were happening a couple of months ago, but they seem to have no problem the protests that are happening now.

Imma

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2020, 07:20:26 AM »
I think it's hilarious that people were outraged about the stay-at-home order protests that were happening a couple of months ago, but they seem to have no problem the protests that are happening now.

I wasn't enraged about that either, but in my area only a handful of conspiracy theorists showed up to these. 25 or 10000 people means a totally different risk. In areas where Covid-19 is not as contained, the protests will probably cause infection rates to go up (which doesn't mean that the protests aren't there for a good reason, just saying that it's likely that in some cases it will likely spread the virus). 

GuitarStv

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2020, 07:27:47 AM »
I think it's hilarious that people were outraged about the stay-at-home order protests that were happening a couple of months ago, but they seem to have no problem the protests that are happening now.

I have a problem with the protests happening now, and think they're a bad idea as far as controlling spread of this disease.

Surely you see a difference between protesting decades of ingrained violence and oppression by a largely white police force against people of colour (where the majority of protesters are wearing masks to attempt to limit spread of the virus), and protesting the medically advised action taken by state leaders in response to a global pandemic (where most people were not wearing masks, but many were carrying guns - I guess to shoot the virus if it showed up?) though, right?  They are being executed in a very different manner, and are taking place for very different reasons.

So, while both sets of protests are bad, I view the former as more valid a cause and generally executed in a slightly safer manner.

Schaefer Light

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2020, 08:42:24 AM »
I think it's hilarious that people were outraged about the stay-at-home order protests that were happening a couple of months ago, but they seem to have no problem the protests that are happening now.

I have a problem with the protests happening now, and think they're a bad idea as far as controlling spread of this disease.

Surely you see a difference between protesting decades of ingrained violence and oppression by a largely white police force against people of colour (where the majority of protesters are wearing masks to attempt to limit spread of the virus), and protesting the medically advised action taken by state leaders in response to a global pandemic (where most people were not wearing masks, but many were carrying guns - I guess to shoot the virus if it showed up?) though, right?  They are being executed in a very different manner, and are taking place for very different reasons.

So, while both sets of protests are bad, I view the former as more valid a cause and generally executed in a slightly safer manner.
From a medical standpoint, I don't see much difference between the two.  And I don't remember any property damage, looting, or violence taking place during the stay at home protests.

Shane

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2020, 09:27:42 AM »
I think it's hilarious that people were outraged about the stay-at-home order protests that were happening a couple of months ago, but they seem to have no problem the protests that are happening now.

I have a problem with the protests happening now, and think they're a bad idea as far as controlling spread of this disease.

Surely you see a difference between protesting decades of ingrained violence and oppression by a largely white police force against people of colour (where the majority of protesters are wearing masks to attempt to limit spread of the virus), and protesting the medically advised action taken by state leaders in response to a global pandemic (where most people were not wearing masks, but many were carrying guns - I guess to shoot the virus if it showed up?) though, right?  They are being executed in a very different manner, and are taking place for very different reasons.

So, while both sets of protests are bad, I view the former as more valid a cause and generally executed in a slightly safer manner.
From a medical standpoint, I don't see much difference between the two.  And I don't remember any property damage, looting, or violence taking place during the stay at home protests.
Agreed, the virus doesn't care for what reasons people are congregating. If it's a bad idea to get a haircut or get your nails done, it's probably also not very smart, from a medical standpoint, for thousands of people to gather in the streets, shoulder to shoulder, screaming their lungs out. Obviously, BLM is a good cause, and I support it, but watching the gymnastics my mostly left-leaning neighbors seem to be attempting in order to justify BLM protests one day, and then condemn ReOpen protesters the next, is pretty amusing. As far as the narrative that left-wing BLM protesters are more likely to be wearing masks than right-wing ReOpen protesters goes, I haven't see that play out in real life experiences here in our (state capital) city. The ReOpen protesters have come twice in the past month, but only for one day, each time. BLM protests have been happening almost every day for the past 3 weeks. Two days ago, I rode my bike past the steps of our capitol, and there was a small crowd of about 50-60 people standing around listening to a series of speakers. Some were wearing masks. Some not. I noticed nobody was bothering to wipe down the microphone between speakers, who were YELLING into it.

As far as "property damage, looting, and violence during the protests" goes, right-wing, almost all white, ReOpen protesters were met by a small group of sympathetic, almost all white police officers, none of whom were dressed in riot gear. There were no police helicopters hovering overhead during the ReOpen protests. There were no police snipers posted on the roof of the capitol. During the ReOpen protests, most of the protesters who came to the capital were from more rural parts of the state. It's true that many of them came carrying big, showy, assault rifles. It's also true that there was no violence during the ReOpen protests.

During the initial BLM protest over George Floyd's killing, HUNDREDS of police officers (state troopers, city police, and capitol police) were dressed in full-on riot gear, with full length body shields, helmets, batons, and pepper spray. Friends who attended the first rally told me that the police made no attempt to communicate with them. When protesters decided, at one point, to march around the area of the capitol, suddenly, out of nowhere, a line of capitol police officers in full riot gear appeared and started pepper-spraying the crowd of, until then, completely peaceful, non-violent protesters. It was only after the police instigated violence against non-violent citizens exercising their constitutional rights to express themselves that some young people (antifa?) threw some bricks and ended up burning a couple of police cars. Had the police done a better job at communicating with protesters, beforehand, about where it was okay and not okay to march, there wouldn't have been any problems. A few days later, our police chief, mayor and governor all marched with BLM protesters and, of course, then the police left them alone and there was zero violence.

So, it's true that there has been violence associated with BLM protests, and also that the gun-toting protesters at the ReOpen rallies in our city have been completely peaceful. The REASON for that difference, though, is BECAUSE of police officers' reaction to the protests. The police CAUSED the violence at the initial BLM rally in our city. OTOH, my white neighbor, who attended the first ReOpen protest (carrying his pistol with a CCP) told me, "The police were REALLY nice to us. One officer even took off his mask, shook my hand, and told me he totally agreed with the ReOpen movement. Then the policeman even posed for photos with me and some of the other guys with their big "machine guns."" Let's just say, there were no white cops posing for selfies with the BLM protesters. They were all hiding behind their riot shields, with stone faced, cold, scared(?) expressions on their faces.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 09:33:06 AM by Shane »

MDM

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2020, 04:26:57 PM »
...oppression by a largely white police force....
Nice sound bite, and correct in some places, but notably incorrect in many.  See police racial demographics for some details.

dandarc

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2020, 06:04:16 PM »
...oppression by a largely white police force....
Nice sound bite, and correct in some places, but notably incorrect in many.  See police racial demographics for some details.
I don't have time to click on every one of those - just randomly clicking on 10 or so, every single one showed "minority police share" < "population share". So "largely white" would seem a fair characterization. Is there an example, or did you just make that up about it being "incorrect in many places".

MDM

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2020, 06:19:47 PM »
...oppression by a largely white police force....
Nice sound bite, and correct in some places, but notably incorrect in many.  See police racial demographics for some details.
I don't have time to click on every one of those - just randomly clicking on 10 or so, every single one showed "minority police share" < "population share". So "largely white" would seem a fair characterization. Is there an example, or did you just make that up about it being "incorrect in many places".
Sure: Los Angeles (seems to be the default when the site comes up).

If you want to talk specific statistics for specific cities (e.g., Atlanta, which is the site of a current incident) then have at it.

My objection is to the one-size-fits-all characterization.

Shane

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2020, 08:13:21 PM »
...oppression by a largely white police force....
Nice sound bite, and correct in some places, but notably incorrect in many.  See police racial demographics for some details.
I don't have time to click on every one of those - just randomly clicking on 10 or so, every single one showed "minority police share" < "population share". So "largely white" would seem a fair characterization. Is there an example, or did you just make that up about it being "incorrect in many places".
Sure: Los Angeles (seems to be the default when the site comes up).

If you want to talk specific statistics for specific cities (e.g., Atlanta, which is the site of a current incident) then have at it.

My objection is to the one-size-fits-all characterization.

Our city police force is 90% white, whereas, the population is 52% black. More important than just race, though, is where officers live. Just hiring more black officers isn't going to make much of a difference, IMHO, unless the officers live here in the city and identify as members of the community. The situation now is that almost all police officers who work in the city live in the surrounding suburbs. Some even drive in from 50+ miles out in the countryside. Police officers who grow up and live in suburban and rural areas seem to have a more difficult time connecting with the community, which creates a sense of "us against them." Community members, rightfully, don't believe the officers policing them have any real stake in the community. Officers mistrust and often mistreat community members in ways they would never even think of treating citizens who looked like them living in their suburban communities.

Davnasty

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2020, 09:23:33 PM »
Surely you see a difference between protesting decades of ingrained violence and ...oppression by a largely white police force... against people of colour
Nice sound bite, and correct in some places, but notably incorrect in many.  See police racial demographics for some details.

If you put that comment back into context, the stats you've presented don't dispute the statement.

In context he was referring to the US as a whole and a period covering the last few decades.

As of 2018 77.1% of officers were white.

https://datausa.io/profile/soc/police-officers

MDM

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2020, 09:37:35 PM »
Surely you see a difference between protesting decades of ingrained violence and ...oppression by a largely white police force... against people of colour
Nice sound bite, and correct in some places, but notably incorrect in many.  See police racial demographics for some details.

If you put that comment back into context, the stats you've presented don't dispute the statement.

In context he was referring to the US as a whole and a period covering the last few decades.

As of 2018 77.1% of officers were white.

https://datausa.io/profile/soc/police-officers
Yes, and The White, non-Hispanic or Latino population make up 61% of the nation's total, with the total White population (including White Hispanics and Latinos) being 77%.

Examples such as Shane's do show a problematic situation.  It's just not one that applies to all cities.

GuitarStv

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2020, 11:47:42 AM »
Surely you see a difference between protesting decades of ingrained violence and ...oppression by a largely white police force... against people of colour
Nice sound bite, and correct in some places, but notably incorrect in many.  See police racial demographics for some details.

If you put that comment back into context, the stats you've presented don't dispute the statement.

In context he was referring to the US as a whole and a period covering the last few decades.

As of 2018 77.1% of officers were white.

https://datausa.io/profile/soc/police-officers
Yes, and The White, non-Hispanic or Latino population make up 61% of the nation's total, with the total White population (including White Hispanics and Latinos) being 77%.

Examples such as Shane's do show a problematic situation.  It's just not one that applies to all cities.

So hang on.

You have about a 4 in 5 chance of any given police officer you run into being white . . . and you're arguing that this is not a predominantly white force?  You can maybe make the argument that there is an appropriate ratio of white/minority officers on the whole, but I don't see how you can reasonably say that the police force is not largely white.

MDM

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Re: covid 19 concerns amid all the protests
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2020, 01:02:51 PM »

So hang on.

You have about a 4 in 5 chance of any given police officer you run into being white . . . and you're arguing that this is not a predominantly white force?  You can maybe make the argument that there is an appropriate ratio of white/minority officers on the whole, but I don't see how you can reasonably say that the police force is not largely white.
Yes, appropriate on average.  Some cases "too white" as Shane noted, some cases (e.g., Atlanta, a topical example) "majority minority".