Author Topic: Mustachians and Psychedelics  (Read 11773 times)

J'Oden

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Mustachians and Psychedelics
« on: February 05, 2019, 11:19:54 AM »
Obviously, a lot of people read How To Change Your Mind, by Michael Pollan. It certainly gave me the jump to get back into things.

I kind of wanted to do an informal poll, to figure out how people felt. So I guess I have a few questions for each of you. Of course, every comment here is merely hypothetical, and for education and entertainment purposes. ;)

What is your general idea of psychedelics? How would you describe them? What do you think the law should be surrounding them (specify country please)? Are they a net positive, or a net negative when it comes to society? Have you done them yourself? What do you base your views on?

rocketpj

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 06:42:25 PM »
In my opinion all drugs, including psychedelics, should be legal and available to adults.  The cost of enforcement far outstrips any social costs they may create, and addiction and other issues are much better resolved as health issues.

Personally, I have no interest in psychedelics at this point, but I have certainly enjoyed some of them in the distant past - life changing experiences in a couple of cases.  Now I have an occasional beer, but that's about it.

I'm Canadian, so marijuana is now legal here, which is a good thing though not particularly relevant to me as I am disinterested. 

CindyBS

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2019, 06:50:06 PM »
At a bare minimum psychedelics should be legal to be used in a mental health setting with a mental health professional leading a guided session as well as research into treating various conditions.   Ibogane has been shown to cure addiction to heroine.  Given how many people die of opiate overdoses, it is absolutely insane that this cannot even be legally researched in the US.

maizefolk

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2019, 06:51:57 PM »
I've also read How to Change Your Mind, but my first exposure to the fact that psychedelics were reentering popular culture was the "Shine on You Crazy Goldman" episode of Reply All in 2015. Until then, I honestly didn't have any idea what this class of drugs did. (Why would you want to take a drug that just made you hallucinate?)

My understanding from reading since listening to the podcast is that psychedelics show excellent outcomes for treating depression and end of life care. In addition, they just don't seem to be associated with the negative outcomes of "hard" drugs like cocaine/heroine/meth/and now designer opiates.

I've also met a surprising number of people who will ultimately mention having taken LSD or eaten mushrooms at some point years and years ago. This is very different from even pot or booze, where most people I meet who admit to having used one or the other continue to partake today.

I'd like to try someday, particularly as I'm a relatively depressed person myself, but I'm a wimp about the legal issue.

Telecaster

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2019, 07:55:13 PM »
I've had a number of very positive experiences on psychedelics, starting in college and continuing on up to the present day.   Maybe once a year or once every other year sort of thing.  I imagine I'll continue to use them at about that same frequency indefinitely.


katscratch

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2019, 07:58:27 PM »
I think their use in a therapeutic setting is vastly underutilized. I'm in the US.

I have used varying doses and different types of psilocybin containing mushrooms years ago, mostly recreationally, always on their own (not in combination with alcohol etc). The group of friends I had at the time were pretty amazing to be around. We didn't know dosing at all, but I will say that when we attempted therapeutic use of our own accord -- it's a whole different animal than recreational use; very profound to be in that space while someone is looking after you -- and our attempts were certainly clumsy.

I have no idea if there is any research into this, and actually haven't ever read anything about the scientific/therapeutic uses outside of personal accounts, but we as a group of crazy young adults also found that psychedelics were an incredible tool for building empathy. We spent many many hours at doses of various substances just enough to "tingle" and discuss the ways of the world. I could see a lot of potential uses, and agree that they aren't a class of substance that fosters addiction easily.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2019, 09:53:14 PM »
Nice overview article,

https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/7bx7bd/addicts-are-tripping-on-shrooms-to-find-god-and-get-sober


I've read most of Timothy Leary's books and others.  I wish Humphry Osmond had completed a full set of experiments/studies.
Like most of psychiatry, it is hard to control the variables in the data to extent  it from the anecdotal.
l
Disclaimer: never taken psychedelics enough to get close to major effects (too small of a dose)

Mostly PTF.

steveo

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2019, 11:53:09 PM »
I believe all drugs should be legalised. I've had a average amounts of LSD a number of times. I think it's okay but personally I prefer the milder high of getting stoned.

SnipTheDog

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 08:09:57 AM »
Never done mushrooms or LSD.  But what do you think about micro-dosing?

Raenia

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 08:34:47 AM »
I haven't read the book you mentioned, but my DH did and I've seen a few articles and studies on the topic.  I absolutely support psychedelics being legal, both for therapeutic and recreational use (I'm in the US).  I've never used any of these kinds of drugs, and I don't know that I'd try them even if they were legal, but there just doesn't seem to be any rational argument for them being banned.  Certainly they should be available for research purposes, and I know they have shown promising results for treating depression, anxiety, addiction, and more.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 09:00:00 AM »
I've never known anyone who used psychedelics to use them for a prolonged period of time. I strongly believe that the social costs of their law enforcement far exceeds any social costs of their use. One of my best friends speaks very highly of his experiences with psilocybin mushrooms in college. He's also used marijuana on many occasions, but he found that it made him very paranoid. He's now a lawyer (prosecutor, actually) so he no longer partakes, but he made me very curious to give shrooms at try if they ever become legal. I've personally never used any illegal drugs, but I try pot just for the sake of curiosity when I visit a state where it's legal. I've had opportunities in the past, but until recently, I always worked for employers where random drug testing was technically a possibility. That's no longer a concern for me.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 10:24:35 AM by Mississippi Mudstache »

Davnasty

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 09:10:48 AM »
Haven't read the book yet but I'm definitely interested. Looks like it's pretty popular at the local library, may have to wait for a while.

What do you think the law should be surrounding them (specify country please)? US. I think it's ridiculous that psychedelic drugs are illegal but to put that position into perspective I also believe in the legalization or at least decriminalization of almost every drug. I say almost because I'm not familiar with every drug that exists and there may be a legitimate reason to control certain substances. My stance on legalization is not based on the notion that we have full bodily autonomy, rather that society would be better off with legalization.

Are they a net positive, or a net negative when it comes to society? Probably a net positive but there's very little data to go on, it's all anecdotes and personal feelings. If we don't legalize in the near future, I hope we at least see limitations on research removed. In a general sense I think they can have a humbling effect on a users personality and there's little evidence that anyone gets addicted to psychedelics. I think this world could use a bit more humility. Strong arguments for increased creativity and open mindedness as well.

Have you done them yourself? Little experience but I would be open to more. It's something I want, but not badly enough to source them. I've seen very little evidence of negative health consequences other than injuries sustained during use, so that's not a concern of mine. As long as you use responsibly in the right setting, you should be fine.

What do you base your views on? I've done a bit of reading on the topic but it's been years ago now, conversations with users, and limited personal experience. DMT: The Spirit Molecule by Rick Strassman was a very interesting read. It covers a rare case where legitimate research was done in a controlled way with intravenous DMT. That the first few chapters cover the years long process just to have a chance at performing the studies is rather disheartening but that was many years ago. I don't know if things have gotten better or worse since then. I've also read brief articles on the research being done with psilocybin (mushrooms) but nothing that goes into the details.


Poundwise

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 08:58:16 PM »
I haven't ever taken psychedelics, and I have a horror of taking any psychoactive compound. My brain works well and I don't want to mess with that or change it.  I would say that psychedelic drugs should be legal for research or medicine, but I would not want young people taking them until their effects are well studied and known to be harmless. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2019, 07:28:34 AM »
While I think that people should be free to use most drugs (with certain safety regulations in place . . . driving while tripping is a sensible thing to make illegal for example), I've never really wanted to use psychedelic drugs myself.

I've known some people who were really into LSD and mushrooms.  My understanding is that they can really mess with your perception of reality, and that some people seem to feel more spiritual while taking them.  Net positive/negative to society - I'm not sure to be honest.

PoutineLover

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2019, 09:14:25 AM »
I've had some experience with lsd and mushrooms, and find them to be interesting and fun to do sometimes, but not too often or too much. Having experienced a bad trip, it's really not fun and anyone who tries them should definitely do their research and only partake in safe situations with safe people.
I am probably an outlier on this topic in that I believe that all drugs should be legalized or decriminalized. If it were up to me, it would be possible to purchase any drug in a known dose and purity from a legitimate producer who is inspected and taxed, with revenues going to treatment, research and information campaigns to make the inevitable use of mind-altering substances safer.
Whether they are a net positive or not is a difficult question. For me, it was, because my experiences allowed me to explore thoughts that I otherwise may not have had, and shifted my perspective in a positive way. I don't think that every person needs to try them, or that young and inexperienced people should do them without considering the risks. There is definitely potential for therapeutic use in controlled settings, and that could be a huge net positive, if it is carried out safely and research shows that it helps.

Davnasty

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2019, 09:56:32 AM »
I've had some experience with lsd and mushrooms, and find them to be interesting and fun to do sometimes, but not too often or too much. Having experienced a bad trip, it's really not fun and anyone who tries them should definitely do their research and only partake in safe situations with safe people.
I am probably an outlier on this topic in that I believe that all drugs should be legalized or decriminalized. If it were up to me, it would be possible to purchase any drug in a known dose and purity from a legitimate producer who is inspected and taxed, with revenues going to treatment, research and information campaigns to make the inevitable use of mind-altering substances safer.
Whether they are a net positive or not is a difficult question. For me, it was, because my experiences allowed me to explore thoughts that I otherwise may not have had, and shifted my perspective in a positive way. I don't think that every person needs to try them, or that young and inexperienced people should do them without considering the risks. There is definitely potential for therapeutic use in controlled settings, and that could be a huge net positive, if it is carried out safely and research shows that it helps.

I don't know, I've been surprised that through a number of conversations directly and indirectly related to drug laws, members of this forum have been pretty consistently in favor of legalization or at least relaxing punishments. I don't know if that's representative of the general population and/or if the apparent positions of members are skewed by who speaks up on these topics, but it's been a surprise to me in any case. It's also an issue that we seem to agree on regardless of political affiliations.

Has anyone ever made a poll for mustachian opinions on drug law?

CindyBS

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2019, 11:22:57 AM »
I think their use in a therapeutic setting is vastly underutilized. I'm in the US.

I have used varying doses and different types of psilocybin containing mushrooms years ago, mostly recreationally, always on their own (not in combination with alcohol etc). The group of friends I had at the time were pretty amazing to be around. We didn't know dosing at all, but I will say that when we attempted therapeutic use of our own accord -- it's a whole different animal than recreational use; very profound to be in that space while someone is looking after you -- and our attempts were certainly clumsy.

I have no idea if there is any research into this, and actually haven't ever read anything about the scientific/therapeutic uses outside of personal accounts, but we as a group of crazy young adults also found that psychedelics were an incredible tool for building empathy. We spent many many hours at doses of various substances just enough to "tingle" and discuss the ways of the world. I could see a lot of potential uses, and agree that they aren't a class of substance that fosters addiction easily.

MAPS - Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies does a lot of work in this area.  https://maps.org/

jim555

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2019, 02:38:02 PM »
Is this a trap set by the fuzz?  I have never done any scheduled substances except by prescription.

J'Oden

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2019, 02:55:28 PM »
Is this a trap set by the fuzz?  I have never done any scheduled substances except by prescription.

Of course, every comment here is merely hypothetical, and for education and entertainment purposes.

Davnasty

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2019, 03:00:30 PM »
Is this a trap set by the fuzz?  I have never done any scheduled substances except by prescription.

SWIM uses lots of drugs :)

Shane

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2019, 05:54:22 PM »
@J_Oden, thanks for the book recommendation. Just placed a hold at the local library on Michael Pollan's new book How to Change Your Mind. Will be looking forward to reading it. Have you read anything by Sam Harris, who often mentions experiences with psychedelics and how they have been helpful to him? Haven't listened to it yet, but just found this Sam Harris podcast, which sounds interesting: Drugs and the Meaning of Life.

As a US resident, I agree with others, above, that psychedelics, marijuana and, really, all drugs should be legal. Most of the societal harms from drugs stem from the fact that they are illegal. People who have trouble with drugs, like addiction, should be offered treatment, which would be far cheaper than incarceration. Most people who use drugs are fine, don't need any help, and definitely don't benefit from being treated as criminals.

From the age of ~14 to ~25, I tried various types of psychedelics, probably a total of a dozen times. It was always a positive experience for me. I have good memories of tripping with friends. LSD and mushrooms seemed to open my mind to thinking about some things in different ways. Years later, looking back, I still can remember some of the experiences I had under the influence of psychedelics and how they changed my life - for the better. Definitely think psychedelics are a net positive for society.

Tyson

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2019, 07:58:41 PM »
As a fiscal conservative (and social liberal), it makes no sense to spend all this money trying to stop people from buying drugs.  We should make drugs legal and controlled, and tax them heavily like we do cigarettes and alcohol.  I agree with the previous poster that a good chunk of that tax revenue should be earmarked to fund much more significant addiction prevention and recovery programs. 

As a side benefit, I bet if we properly funded programs like this that promote mental health, we'd see fewer people taking drugs and also fewer suicides. 

Linea_Norway

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2019, 01:55:00 AM »
On Saturday I heard a talk from someone who studies psychedelic mushrooms. She said that the effect can vary. Some people feel good when using them and will take them more often to experience the journey inside themselves and go deeper and deeper the more often they use it. But others will have a traumatic experience and this will really impact them. So you don't know for sure what will await you.

She also said that these mushrooms are not addictive, don't cause a hangover and are not doing damage to society in the way that for example alcohol is (drunk driving, violence etc). People tend to use these mushrooms at home and use them only occasionally. They all use them for the experience, for their inner journey.

Where I live, these particular mushrooms are explicitly illegal to have in possession. I have never found them yet, and haven't looked particularly for them. But DH and I both got a bit curious after the talk to try them once.
But I am sceptic about my own mind. I do get easily depressed when I think deeply about things like pollution, global warming, etc. Might I be vulnerable to get the traumatic experience? I that case I rather wouldn't do it.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2019, 11:27:10 AM »
Where I live, these particular mushrooms are explicitly illegal to have in possession. I have never found them yet, and haven't looked particularly for them. But DH and I both got a bit curious after the talk to try them once.
But I am sceptic about my own mind. I do get easily depressed when I think deeply about things like pollution, global warming, etc. Might I be vulnerable to get the traumatic experience? I that case I rather wouldn't do it.

My best friend has depressive tendencies and has used psilocybin mushrooms on several occasions. He reported an overwhelmingly positive, life-altering experience with them. That said, I have absolutely zero reason beyond one single anecdote to believe that people who are prone to depression are not more likely to have negative experiences with them. I'm personally interested in them based on my friend's experience, but not so curious to grow them in my closet (as he did), and certainly not curious enough to buy them. If I found them growing wild and could positively ID them, I'd give them a try.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2019, 01:34:47 AM »
If I found them growing wild and could positively ID them, I'd give them a try.

I am very much into identifying all other types of mushroom, it's my hobby. So trying to find this particular one should not be a problem if I would just look for it (in grass fields, close to water, I think).

jim555

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2019, 01:38:22 PM »
If I found them growing wild and could positively ID them, I'd give them a try.

I am very much into identifying all other types of mushroom, it's my hobby. So trying to find this particular one should not be a problem if I would just look for it (in grass fields, close to water, I think).
Be careful!  You don't want to accidentally kill yourself. 

Linea_Norway

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2019, 12:26:36 AM »
If I found them growing wild and could positively ID them, I'd give them a try.

I am very much into identifying all other types of mushroom, it's my hobby. So trying to find this particular one should not be a problem if I would just look for it (in grass fields, close to water, I think).
Be careful!  You don't want to accidentally kill yourself.

I recently read that you need to eat 1,7 kg of dried sroom of this psychedelic type to be killed. This is supposed to be one of the safest drugs, as the difference of working dosage is so much smaller than a lethal dosage.

For all other mushrooms, I have passed an exam to know which ones are edible and poisonous. I am approved to check other people's baskets.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2019, 09:12:44 AM »
If I found them growing wild and could positively ID them, I'd give them a try.

I am very much into identifying all other types of mushroom, it's my hobby. So trying to find this particular one should not be a problem if I would just look for it (in grass fields, close to water, I think).
Be careful!  You don't want to accidentally kill yourself.

I recently read that you need to eat 1,7 kg of dried sroom of this psychedelic type to be killed. This is supposed to be one of the safest drugs, as the difference of working dosage is so much smaller than a lethal dosage.

For all other mushrooms, I have passed an exam to know which ones are edible and poisonous. I am approved to check other people's baskets.

I need to find someone like you to help ID my mushrooms. I'm 99% positive that I found oyster mushrooms on my property last summer, but I couldn't find anyone who could provide confirmation, so I never ate them.

Budgie

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2019, 10:09:17 PM »
I know many people who have used psychedelics lots of times at music festivals or with friends to no ill effect, and when I think about that I consider that they should be like alcohol--legal but used by adults with attention to whether one will need to drive, supervise young children or otherwise have senses unimpaired.

That said,  I work in a setting where we do encounter people who are having significant ill effects from using hallucinogens (natural or man-made), E.g. people who were left unsupervised or escaped from their trip partners and moved into a stage of feeling like they needed to test reality by running their car into something, jumping from a roof, etc.  I have no way of knowing how common these kinds of reactions are--are the patients I am seeing 5%, 1% or .001% of trippers? No clue. But it certainly has made me think twice about the "let adults work it out for themselves" policy my college experiences would have suggested.


Rasputin

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2019, 08:38:30 AM »
In my opinion all drugs, including psychedelics, should be legal and available to adults.  The cost of enforcement far outstrips any social costs they may create, and addiction and other issues are much better resolved as health issues.

Personally, I have no interest in psychedelics at this point, but I have certainly enjoyed some of them in the distant past - life changing experiences in a couple of cases.  Now I have an occasional beer, but that's about it.

I'm Canadian, so marijuana is now legal here, which is a good thing though not particularly relevant to me as I am disinterested.

Look at states in US where weed has been legalized then say it’s a good thing for your fine, beautiful country.
Increased homelessness
Increased traffic fatalities
Declining school performance among young people
Decreased worker productivity

Davnasty

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2019, 10:08:08 AM »
In my opinion all drugs, including psychedelics, should be legal and available to adults.  The cost of enforcement far outstrips any social costs they may create, and addiction and other issues are much better resolved as health issues.

Personally, I have no interest in psychedelics at this point, but I have certainly enjoyed some of them in the distant past - life changing experiences in a couple of cases.  Now I have an occasional beer, but that's about it.

I'm Canadian, so marijuana is now legal here, which is a good thing though not particularly relevant to me as I am disinterested.

Look at states in US where weed has been legalized then say it’s a good thing for your fine, beautiful country.
Increased homelessness
Increased traffic fatalities
Declining school performance among young people
Decreased worker productivity

1) We need citations if you're interested in discussing these issues.
2) Are the numbers within normal variation or has there been a significant change?
3) If the numbers show these trends, can we separate that trend from other variables and reasonably show a relation to drug law?
4) Even if there are statistics to back up these claims, there are other concerns with banning any substance. If people want something and they can't get it legally, it moves to the black market and subsequently funds organized crime. There is a cost to policing and punishing users. There is an opportunity cost of not being able to tax the sale of drugs. We need to weigh the pros as well as the cons of legalization. I acknowledge that there will likely be some cons.


Rasputin

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2019, 10:24:13 AM »
In my opinion all drugs, including psychedelics, should be legal and available to adults.  The cost of enforcement far outstrips any social costs they may create, and addiction and other issues are much better resolved as health issues.

Personally, I have no interest in psychedelics at this point, but I have certainly enjoyed some of them in the distant past - life changing experiences in a couple of cases.  Now I have an occasional beer, but that's about it.

I'm Canadian, so marijuana is now legal here, which is a good thing though not particularly relevant to me as I am disinterested.

Look at states in US where weed has been legalized then say it’s a good thing for your fine, beautiful country.
Increased homelessness
Increased traffic fatalities
Declining school performance among young people
Decreased worker productivity

1) We need citations if you're interested in discussing these issues.
2) Are the numbers within normal variation or has there been a significant change?
3) If the numbers show these trends, can we separate that trend from other variables and reasonably show a relation to drug law?
4) Even if there are statistics to back up these claims, there are other concerns with banning any substance. If people want something and they can't get it legally, it moves to the black market and subsequently funds organized crime. There is a cost to policing and punishing users. There is an opportunity cost of not being able to tax the sale of drugs. We need to weigh the pros as well as the cons of legalization. I acknowledge that there will likely be some cons.

Not exactly my job to do research for you, however, here’s an article. https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/536010001

It also touches on your comment about people wanting stuff when it’s illegal. Marijuana is legal in Colorado, yet arrests for trafficking went up.

Shane

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2019, 10:25:27 AM »
I know many people who have used psychedelics lots of times at music festivals or with friends to no ill effect, and when I think about that I consider that they should be like alcohol--legal but used by adults with attention to whether one will need to drive, supervise young children or otherwise have senses unimpaired.

That said,  I work in a setting where we do encounter people who are having significant ill effects from using hallucinogens (natural or man-made), E.g. people who were left unsupervised or escaped from their trip partners and moved into a stage of feeling like they needed to test reality by running their car into something, jumping from a roof, etc.  I have no way of knowing how common these kinds of reactions are--are the patients I am seeing 5%, 1% or .001% of trippers? No clue. But it certainly has made me think twice about the "let adults work it out for themselves" policy my college experiences would have suggested.

@Budgie

While it's possible hallucinogens caused the "ill effects" you observe in patients, isn't it also possible that at least some of the people were already experiencing mental health issues before they used psychedelics and their "bad trips" were symptoms of underlying mental illness?

Rasputin

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2019, 10:36:38 AM »
I know many people who have used psychedelics lots of times at music festivals or with friends to no ill effect, and when I think about that I consider that they should be like alcohol--legal but used by adults with attention to whether one will need to drive, supervise young children or otherwise have senses unimpaired.

That said,  I work in a setting where we do encounter people who are having significant ill effects from using hallucinogens (natural or man-made), E.g. people who were left unsupervised or escaped from their trip partners and moved into a stage of feeling like they needed to test reality by running their car into something, jumping from a roof, etc.  I have no way of knowing how common these kinds of reactions are--are the patients I am seeing 5%, 1% or .001% of trippers? No clue. But it certainly has made me think twice about the "let adults work it out for themselves" policy my college experiences would have suggested.

@Budgie

While it's possible hallucinogens caused the "ill effects" you observe in patients, isn't it also possible that at least some of the people were already experiencing mental health issues before they used psychedelics and their "bad trips" were symptoms of underlying mental illness?

It’s known that hallucinogenic drugs affect serotonin receptors in the brain. It stands to reason anytime you mess with brain chemistry, you can expect undesirable results. To ignore that is irresponsible.

Davnasty

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2019, 11:22:31 AM »
In my opinion all drugs, including psychedelics, should be legal and available to adults.  The cost of enforcement far outstrips any social costs they may create, and addiction and other issues are much better resolved as health issues.

Personally, I have no interest in psychedelics at this point, but I have certainly enjoyed some of them in the distant past - life changing experiences in a couple of cases.  Now I have an occasional beer, but that's about it.

I'm Canadian, so marijuana is now legal here, which is a good thing though not particularly relevant to me as I am disinterested.

Look at states in US where weed has been legalized then say it’s a good thing for your fine, beautiful country.
Increased homelessness
Increased traffic fatalities
Declining school performance among young people
Decreased worker productivity


1) We need citations if you're interested in discussing these issues.
2) Are the numbers within normal variation or has there been a significant change?
3) If the numbers show these trends, can we separate that trend from other variables and reasonably show a relation to drug law?
4) Even if there are statistics to back up these claims, there are other concerns with banning any substance. If people want something and they can't get it legally, it moves to the black market and subsequently funds organized crime. There is a cost to policing and punishing users. There is an opportunity cost of not being able to tax the sale of drugs. We need to weigh the pros as well as the cons of legalization. I acknowledge that there will likely be some cons.

Not exactly my job to do research for you, however, here’s an article. https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/536010001

It also touches on your comment about people wanting stuff when it’s illegal. Marijuana is legal in Colorado, yet arrests for trafficking went up.

Well that's an odd stance to take in a forum discussion. It's pretty much standard that when you present claims based on statistics, you provide data to back it up. Most people won't take your claims seriously if you don't.

The article you linked is an opinion piece from Jeff Hunt, director of the Centennial Institute at Colorado Christion University. It provides zero source data citations and the few unsubstantiated statistics he does mention are not related to any of your 4 claims.

Here are two responses to Jeff's opinion piece:

https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/370519-lies-damned-lies-and-statistics-about-marijuana-legalization
https://www.westword.com/marijuana/usa-today-publishes-jeff-hunts-op-ed-even-though-marijuana-hasnt-devastated-colorado-9345343

Here's some actual data which refutes your claim of increased traffic fatalities:

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2017.303848

I would be interested in further discussion of available data as it relates to your initial claims, but before I take the time to do the research, is there one issue in particular that you would be interested in discussing?

Rasputin

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2019, 12:49:50 PM »
In my opinion all drugs, including psychedelics, should be legal and available to adults.  The cost of enforcement far outstrips any social costs they may create, and addiction and other issues are much better resolved as health issues.

Personally, I have no interest in psychedelics at this point, but I have certainly enjoyed some of them in the distant past - life changing experiences in a couple of cases.  Now I have an occasional beer, but that's about it.

I'm Canadian, so marijuana is now legal here, which is a good thing though not particularly relevant to me as I am disinterested.

Look at states in US where weed has been legalized then say it’s a good thing for your fine, beautiful country.
Increased homelessness
Increased traffic fatalities
Declining school performance among young people
Decreased worker productivity


1) We need citations if you're interested in discussing these issues.
2) Are the numbers within normal variation or has there been a significant change?
3) If the numbers show these trends, can we separate that trend from other variables and reasonably show a relation to drug law?
4) Even if there are statistics to back up these claims, there are other concerns with banning any substance. If people want something and they can't get it legally, it moves to the black market and subsequently funds organized crime. There is a cost to policing and punishing users. There is an opportunity cost of not being able to tax the sale of drugs. We need to weigh the pros as well as the cons of legalization. I acknowledge that there will likely be some cons.

Not exactly my job to do research for you, however, here’s an article. https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/536010001

It also touches on your comment about people wanting stuff when it’s illegal. Marijuana is legal in Colorado, yet arrests for trafficking went up.

Well that's an odd stance to take in a forum discussion. It's pretty much standard that when you present claims based on statistics, you provide data to back it up. Most people won't take your claims seriously if you don't.

The article you linked is an opinion piece from Jeff Hunt, director of the Centennial Institute at Colorado Christion University. It provides zero source data citations and the few unsubstantiated statistics he does mention are not related to any of your 4 claims.

Here are two responses to Jeff's opinion piece:

https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/370519-lies-damned-lies-and-statistics-about-marijuana-legalization
https://www.westword.com/marijuana/usa-today-publishes-jeff-hunts-op-ed-even-though-marijuana-hasnt-devastated-colorado-9345343

Here's some actual data which refutes your claim of increased traffic fatalities:

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2017.303848

I would be interested in further discussion of available data as it relates to your initial claims, but before I take the time to do the research, is there one issue in particular that you would be interested in discussing?

https://faculty.washington.edu/ceweber/HMW_marijuana_traffic.pdf

Refuted. #winning #tigerblood

Davnasty

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2019, 01:56:41 PM »
In my opinion all drugs, including psychedelics, should be legal and available to adults.  The cost of enforcement far outstrips any social costs they may create, and addiction and other issues are much better resolved as health issues.

Personally, I have no interest in psychedelics at this point, but I have certainly enjoyed some of them in the distant past - life changing experiences in a couple of cases.  Now I have an occasional beer, but that's about it.

I'm Canadian, so marijuana is now legal here, which is a good thing though not particularly relevant to me as I am disinterested.

Look at states in US where weed has been legalized then say it’s a good thing for your fine, beautiful country.
Increased homelessness
Increased traffic fatalities
Declining school performance among young people
Decreased worker productivity


1) We need citations if you're interested in discussing these issues.
2) Are the numbers within normal variation or has there been a significant change?
3) If the numbers show these trends, can we separate that trend from other variables and reasonably show a relation to drug law?
4) Even if there are statistics to back up these claims, there are other concerns with banning any substance. If people want something and they can't get it legally, it moves to the black market and subsequently funds organized crime. There is a cost to policing and punishing users. There is an opportunity cost of not being able to tax the sale of drugs. We need to weigh the pros as well as the cons of legalization. I acknowledge that there will likely be some cons.

Not exactly my job to do research for you, however, here’s an article. https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/536010001

It also touches on your comment about people wanting stuff when it’s illegal. Marijuana is legal in Colorado, yet arrests for trafficking went up.

Well that's an odd stance to take in a forum discussion. It's pretty much standard that when you present claims based on statistics, you provide data to back it up. Most people won't take your claims seriously if you don't.

The article you linked is an opinion piece from Jeff Hunt, director of the Centennial Institute at Colorado Christion University. It provides zero source data citations and the few unsubstantiated statistics he does mention are not related to any of your 4 claims.

Here are two responses to Jeff's opinion piece:

https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/370519-lies-damned-lies-and-statistics-about-marijuana-legalization
https://www.westword.com/marijuana/usa-today-publishes-jeff-hunts-op-ed-even-though-marijuana-hasnt-devastated-colorado-9345343

Here's some actual data which refutes your claim of increased traffic fatalities:

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2017.303848

I would be interested in further discussion of available data as it relates to your initial claims, but before I take the time to do the research, is there one issue in particular that you would be interested in discussing?

https://faculty.washington.edu/ceweber/HMW_marijuana_traffic.pdf

Refuted. #winning #tigerblood
I’m confused, so we agree now?

From the report:

Quote
We find the synthetic control groups saw similar increases in marijuana-related fatality rates despite not legalizing recreational marijuana.

Quote
This suggests that the upward trend in marijuana-related fatalities in Colorado would have taken place whether or not recreational marijuana was legalized.

If you're curious about the increased rate of drivers testing positive for THC, it most likely explained by the increased rate of testing.

Rasputin

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2019, 01:58:34 PM »
In my opinion all drugs, including psychedelics, should be legal and available to adults.  The cost of enforcement far outstrips any social costs they may create, and addiction and other issues are much better resolved as health issues.

Personally, I have no interest in psychedelics at this point, but I have certainly enjoyed some of them in the distant past - life changing experiences in a couple of cases.  Now I have an occasional beer, but that's about it.

I'm Canadian, so marijuana is now legal here, which is a good thing though not particularly relevant to me as I am disinterested.

Look at states in US where weed has been legalized then say it’s a good thing for your fine, beautiful country.
Increased homelessness
Increased traffic fatalities
Declining school performance among young people
Decreased worker productivity


1) We need citations if you're interested in discussing these issues.
2) Are the numbers within normal variation or has there been a significant change?
3) If the numbers show these trends, can we separate that trend from other variables and reasonably show a relation to drug law?
4) Even if there are statistics to back up these claims, there are other concerns with banning any substance. If people want something and they can't get it legally, it moves to the black market and subsequently funds organized crime. There is a cost to policing and punishing users. There is an opportunity cost of not being able to tax the sale of drugs. We need to weigh the pros as well as the cons of legalization. I acknowledge that there will likely be some cons.

Not exactly my job to do research for you, however, here’s an article. https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/536010001

It also touches on your comment about people wanting stuff when it’s illegal. Marijuana is legal in Colorado, yet arrests for trafficking went up.

Well that's an odd stance to take in a forum discussion. It's pretty much standard that when you present claims based on statistics, you provide data to back it up. Most people won't take your claims seriously if you don't.

The article you linked is an opinion piece from Jeff Hunt, director of the Centennial Institute at Colorado Christion University. It provides zero source data citations and the few unsubstantiated statistics he does mention are not related to any of your 4 claims.

Here are two responses to Jeff's opinion piece:

https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/370519-lies-damned-lies-and-statistics-about-marijuana-legalization
https://www.westword.com/marijuana/usa-today-publishes-jeff-hunts-op-ed-even-though-marijuana-hasnt-devastated-colorado-9345343

Here's some actual data which refutes your claim of increased traffic fatalities:

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2017.303848

I would be interested in further discussion of available data as it relates to your initial claims, but before I take the time to do the research, is there one issue in particular that you would be interested in discussing?

https://faculty.washington.edu/ceweber/HMW_marijuana_traffic.pdf

Refuted. #winning #tigerblood
I’m confused, so we agree now?

From the report:

Quote
We find the synthetic control groups saw similar increases in marijuana-related fatality rates despite not legalizing recreational marijuana.

Quote
This suggests that the upward trend in marijuana-related fatalities in Colorado would have taken place whether or not recreational marijuana was legalized.

If you're curious about the increased rate of drivers testing positive for THC, it most likely explained by the increased rate of testing.
Fake news. More people in states like Colorado and Oregon are high as phuck while driving. You gonna act like research hasn’t proven people high on weed have far slower reaction times?
Enough with your fake news already.

Davnasty

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2019, 02:19:50 PM »
Fake news. More people in states like Colorado and Oregon are high as phuck while driving. You gonna act like research hasn’t proven people high on weed have far slower reaction times?
Enough with your fake news already.

The study you posted is fake?

Anyway, I'm not disputing the fact that marijuana reduces reaction times, that's almost certain. Although I haven't seen studies that show it, it seems pretty obvious from being around people who smoke.

But that's beside the point. The real question is whether or not more people are driving while high. To be honest, I wouldn't have been surprised if there was a slight increase in accidents due to high driving, but that doesn't seem to be the case.


Budgie

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2019, 02:25:15 PM »
I know many people who have used psychedelics lots of times at music festivals or with friends to no ill effect, and when I think about that I consider that they should be like alcohol--legal but used by adults with attention to whether one will need to drive, supervise young children or otherwise have senses unimpaired.

That said,  I work in a setting where we do encounter people who are having significant ill effects from using hallucinogens (natural or man-made), E.g. people who were left unsupervised or escaped from their trip partners and moved into a stage of feeling like they needed to test reality by running their car into something, jumping from a roof, etc.  I have no way of knowing how common these kinds of reactions are--are the patients I am seeing 5%, 1% or .001% of trippers? No clue. But it certainly has made me think twice about the "let adults work it out for themselves" policy my college experiences would have suggested.

@Budgie

While it's possible hallucinogens caused the "ill effects" you observe in patients, isn't it also possible that at least some of the people were already experiencing mental health issues before they used psychedelics and their "bad trips" were symptoms of underlying mental illness?

Eh. I am not talking about the "trigger" effect of psychedelics on schizophrenia or other psychotic illness, which is an old cautionary tale IDK the research validation for (may or may not exist, not my specialty so IDK). I am talking about people with no previous history of derealization or psychotic grandiosity who experienced these effects while under the effects of the psychedelics, and then once the substance is out of their system, (no antipsychotic drugs administered) return to being their regular selves with no such symptoms.

Not "Bill is schizophrenic, Bill used LSD for years, therefore LSD causes schizophrenia" but "Bill has no previous history of psychotic illness, took shrooms (or other psychedlics) yesterday, laughingly stripped down naked and drove his car into a pole last night "to see if it was real", stayed in the hospital for 48 hours and went home and never had a psychotic symptom again".

Does Bill have "underlying mental illness"? IDK. He may have depression, anxiety, OCD, ADHD, complex PTSD, or any number of personality disorders that he (and half your coworkers) is or is not getting treatment for--but none of those were involved in the sudden, one-time symptomology brought on by the shrooms.

Rasputin

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2019, 03:06:27 PM »
Fake news. More people in states like Colorado and Oregon are high as phuck while driving. You gonna act like research hasn’t proven people high on weed have far slower reaction times?
Enough with your fake news already.

The study you posted is fake?

Anyway, I'm not disputing the fact that marijuana reduces reaction times, that's almost certain. Although I haven't seen studies that show it, it seems pretty obvious from being around people who smoke.

But that's beside the point. The real question is whether or not more people are driving while high. To be honest, I wouldn't have been surprised if there was a slight increase in accidents due to high driving, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

No. You are fake news.
https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/does-marijuana-use-affect-driving

MOD EDIT: Use facts, not rudeness.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 07:42:02 PM by arebelspy »

Shane

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2019, 10:16:20 AM »
I know many people who have used psychedelics lots of times at music festivals or with friends to no ill effect, and when I think about that I consider that they should be like alcohol--legal but used by adults with attention to whether one will need to drive, supervise young children or otherwise have senses unimpaired.

That said,  I work in a setting where we do encounter people who are having significant ill effects from using hallucinogens (natural or man-made), E.g. people who were left unsupervised or escaped from their trip partners and moved into a stage of feeling like they needed to test reality by running their car into something, jumping from a roof, etc.  I have no way of knowing how common these kinds of reactions are--are the patients I am seeing 5%, 1% or .001% of trippers? No clue. But it certainly has made me think twice about the "let adults work it out for themselves" policy my college experiences would have suggested.

@Budgie

While it's possible hallucinogens caused the "ill effects" you observe in patients, isn't it also possible that at least some of the people were already experiencing mental health issues before they used psychedelics and their "bad trips" were symptoms of underlying mental illness?

Eh. I am not talking about the "trigger" effect of psychedelics on schizophrenia or other psychotic illness, which is an old cautionary tale IDK the research validation for (may or may not exist, not my specialty so IDK). I am talking about people with no previous history of derealization or psychotic grandiosity who experienced these effects while under the effects of the psychedelics, and then once the substance is out of their system, (no antipsychotic drugs administered) return to being their regular selves with no such symptoms.

Not "Bill is schizophrenic, Bill used LSD for years, therefore LSD causes schizophrenia" but "Bill has no previous history of psychotic illness, took shrooms (or other psychedlics) yesterday, laughingly stripped down naked and drove his car into a pole last night "to see if it was real", stayed in the hospital for 48 hours and went home and never had a psychotic symptom again".

Does Bill have "underlying mental illness"? IDK. He may have depression, anxiety, OCD, ADHD, complex PTSD, or any number of personality disorders that he (and half your coworkers) is or is not getting treatment for--but none of those were involved in the sudden, one-time symptomology brought on by the shrooms.

Sorry, @Budgie, didn't understand exactly what you were trying to say. Now, I think I do.

Seems like it's always good to be really careful where, when and with whom you trip, especially if you're going to take a LOT. I wouldn't want to take a lot of 'shrooms or LSD, unless somebody responsible was around, whom I knew I could trust to not let me try to do dumb things like drive a car or jump off of a building!

Linea_Norway

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2019, 04:31:12 AM »
I suppose you can try to put it through some translation program. But it is about Danish scientists who are experimenting on the effects of psilocybin. It might help against angst.

https://forskning.no/hjernen-psykiske-lidelser-psykose/liten-dansk-studiepsykedeliske-sopper-pavirker-depresjonomrader-i-hjernen/1297797?fbclid=IwAR0xw9EFHWpJGjE6_jcONHa7HXKzMRu1IK368k44zuPNZcieohzdXToV7cg

J'Oden

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2019, 03:44:05 PM »
Hey all. I know I've kind of let this thread go. I've been in a bit of research mode, and didn't really want to come back all half-assed. However, while I still am getting some of my findings down properly to share here, I just found out there is a book that is free this weekend that is specifically about microdosing. It's called Small Magic, and I think it's only free this weekend. FYI.

Tyson

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2019, 04:28:05 PM »
Hey all. I know I've kind of let this thread go. I've been in a bit of research mode, and didn't really want to come back all half-assed. However, while I still am getting some of my findings down properly to share here, I just found out there is a book that is free this weekend that is specifically about microdosing. It's called Small Magic, and I think it's only free this weekend. FYI.

Nice timing, as mushrooms just passed decriminalization here in Colorado.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2019, 01:27:21 AM »
Hey all. I know I've kind of let this thread go. I've been in a bit of research mode, and didn't really want to come back all half-assed. However, while I still am getting some of my findings down properly to share here, I just found out there is a book that is free this weekend that is specifically about microdosing. It's called Small Magic, and I think it's only free this weekend. FYI.

Thanks, downloaded it for free.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2019, 04:49:59 AM »
Psychadelics have always scared me as I have a close family member who has schizophrenia.  Seeing my family member suffer through hallucinations and delusions (they were usually scary and paranoid) as a child really scared me and I can't imagine voluntarily doing that to yourself.  But to each their own.

Johnez

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2019, 05:04:50 AM »
I believe drugs of all kind should be legal. Experimenting with your mind and body is fraught with risk, however, and I believe the supplements industry is mess and is due for a huge dollop of regulation. Before legalizing anything, a framework needs to be established to ensure accurate ingredients and dosing. Let the people figure out whether the crap is effective. I've been researching nootropics lately as a way to enhance productivity and am constantly bummed by the articles I come across highlighting adulterants or outright fake ingredients from shady companies. Even "safe" supplements like whey protein fall victim to this kind of thing. If I buy a bottle of Don Julio, there's little to zero risk I'll get anything but actual 100% fermented agave. That cheap Jose Cuervo that doesn't specify is a different story, but the label still makes that clear. Should be the same for everything.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 05:07:58 AM by Johnez »

J'Oden

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2019, 09:08:56 AM »
Psychadelics have always scared me as I have a close family member who has schizophrenia.  Seeing my family member suffer through hallucinations and delusions (they were usually scary and paranoid) as a child really scared me and I can't imagine voluntarily doing that to yourself.  But to each their own.

It's interesting that you bring this up. Initially, mescaline, LSD, Mushrooms, and other hallucinogenic substances were classified as psychotomimetic. Meaning to mimic the effects of psychosis. That is what it looked like. It was a substance that was thought to temporarily cause mental issues. However, as more was learned about this drug (it was actually a conversation about using it as treatment specifically for schizophrenia) and mental illness, it was realized that isn't what it was doing. Some of the initial value people thought this classification of substances would provide would be to give a therapist the opportunity to experience first hand what their patients were dealing with. As what the experience did became more clear (through more experimentation), the terminology got better.

I'm glad you brought up your feelings around it. The better half has similar ones (not about psychedelics specifically, more like being altered generally), and it's really hard for me personally to empathize. I have very little first hand experience with that kind of mental illness, so I need to keep in mind that viewpoint. So thanks for sharing that. It's a pervasive viewpoint, and one I need to keep in mind.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2019, 12:58:45 PM »
J'Oden - You're welcome.  Like your significant other, I'm at a loss to understand why someone would want to experience hallucinations as my experience with them was so distressing as a child.  But I know plenty of people who have used these types of drugs and enjoyed it so I guess it's just a personal hang up due to my childhood experiences.  I also wonder a bit if schizophrenia could be genetic and using various drugs would somehow 'unlock' that part of my brain.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 01:04:03 PM by Hula Hoop »