Author Topic: Mustachians and Psychedelics  (Read 897 times)

J_Oden

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Mustachians and Psychedelics
« on: February 05, 2019, 11:19:54 AM »
Obviously, a lot of people read How To Change Your Mind, by Michael Pollan. It certainly gave me the jump to get back into things.

I kind of wanted to do an informal poll, to figure out how people felt. So I guess I have a few questions for each of you. Of course, every comment here is merely hypothetical, and for education and entertainment purposes. ;)

What is your general idea of psychedelics? How would you describe them? What do you think the law should be surrounding them (specify country please)? Are they a net positive, or a net negative when it comes to society? Have you done them yourself? What do you base your views on?

rocketpj

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 06:42:25 PM »
In my opinion all drugs, including psychedelics, should be legal and available to adults.  The cost of enforcement far outstrips any social costs they may create, and addiction and other issues are much better resolved as health issues.

Personally, I have no interest in psychedelics at this point, but I have certainly enjoyed some of them in the distant past - life changing experiences in a couple of cases.  Now I have an occasional beer, but that's about it.

I'm Canadian, so marijuana is now legal here, which is a good thing though not particularly relevant to me as I am disinterested. 

CindyBS

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2019, 06:50:06 PM »
At a bare minimum psychedelics should be legal to be used in a mental health setting with a mental health professional leading a guided session as well as research into treating various conditions.   Ibogane has been shown to cure addiction to heroine.  Given how many people die of opiate overdoses, it is absolutely insane that this cannot even be legally researched in the US.

maizeman

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2019, 06:51:57 PM »
I've also read How to Change Your Mind, but my first exposure to the fact that psychedelics were reentering popular culture was the "Shine on You Crazy Goldman" episode of Reply All in 2015. Until then, I honestly didn't have any idea what this class of drugs did. (Why would you want to take a drug that just made you hallucinate?)

My understanding from reading since listening to the podcast is that psychedelics show excellent outcomes for treating depression and end of life care. In addition, they just don't seem to be associated with the negative outcomes of "hard" drugs like cocaine/heroine/meth/and now designer opiates.

I've also met a surprising number of people who will ultimately mention having taken LSD or eaten mushrooms at some point years and years ago. This is very different from even pot or booze, where most people I meet who admit to having used one or the other continue to partake today.

I'd like to try someday, particularly as I'm a relatively depressed person myself, but I'm a wimp about the legal issue.

Telecaster

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2019, 07:55:13 PM »
I've had a number of very positive experiences on psychedelics, starting in college and continuing on up to the present day.   Maybe once a year or once every other year sort of thing.  I imagine I'll continue to use them at about that same frequency indefinitely.


katscratch

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2019, 07:58:27 PM »
I think their use in a therapeutic setting is vastly underutilized. I'm in the US.

I have used varying doses and different types of psilocybin containing mushrooms years ago, mostly recreationally, always on their own (not in combination with alcohol etc). The group of friends I had at the time were pretty amazing to be around. We didn't know dosing at all, but I will say that when we attempted therapeutic use of our own accord -- it's a whole different animal than recreational use; very profound to be in that space while someone is looking after you -- and our attempts were certainly clumsy.

I have no idea if there is any research into this, and actually haven't ever read anything about the scientific/therapeutic uses outside of personal accounts, but we as a group of crazy young adults also found that psychedelics were an incredible tool for building empathy. We spent many many hours at doses of various substances just enough to "tingle" and discuss the ways of the world. I could see a lot of potential uses, and agree that they aren't a class of substance that fosters addiction easily.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2019, 09:53:14 PM »
Nice overview article,

https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/7bx7bd/addicts-are-tripping-on-shrooms-to-find-god-and-get-sober


I've read most of Timothy Leary's books and others.  I wish Humphry Osmond had completed a full set of experiments/studies.
Like most of psychiatry, it is hard to control the variables in the data to extent  it from the anecdotal.
l
Disclaimer: never taken psychedelics enough to get close to major effects (too small of a dose)

Mostly PTF.

steveo

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2019, 11:53:09 PM »
I believe all drugs should be legalised. I've had a average amounts of LSD a number of times. I think it's okay but personally I prefer the milder high of getting stoned.

Hirondelle

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 01:00:23 AM »
My question would be, what are people afraid of upon legalization?

I'm in the Netherlands and mushrooms are legal here. LSD isn't. I'm not in a druggie-enthusiast environment among my Dutch friends, but overall I barely know any people who use it at all. I have never heard of any addiction problems (not in real life, not on the major news channels). The only times there's been problems was when a specific type of mushroom led someone to jump of a flat years and years ago as he thought he could fly. Upon this, this type of mushroom got banned. Pretty stupid IMO if you compare it to the number of people dying from stupid actions post-alcohol consumption each year.

SnipTheDog

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 08:09:57 AM »
Never done mushrooms or LSD.  But what do you think about micro-dosing?

Raenia

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 08:34:47 AM »
I haven't read the book you mentioned, but my DH did and I've seen a few articles and studies on the topic.  I absolutely support psychedelics being legal, both for therapeutic and recreational use (I'm in the US).  I've never used any of these kinds of drugs, and I don't know that I'd try them even if they were legal, but there just doesn't seem to be any rational argument for them being banned.  Certainly they should be available for research purposes, and I know they have shown promising results for treating depression, anxiety, addiction, and more.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 09:00:00 AM »
I've never known anyone who used psychedelics to use them for a prolonged period of time. I strongly believe that the social costs of their law enforcement far exceeds any social costs of their use. One of my best friends speaks very highly of his experiences with psilocybin mushrooms in college. He's also used marijuana on many occasions, but he found that it made him very paranoid. He's now a lawyer (prosecutor, actually) so he no longer partakes, but he made me very curious to give shrooms at try if they ever become legal. I've personally never used any illegal drugs, but I try pot just for the sake of curiosity when I visit a state where it's legal. I've had opportunities in the past, but until recently, I always worked for employers where random drug testing was technically a possibility. That's no longer a concern for me.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 10:24:35 AM by Mississippi Mudstache »

Dabnasty

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 09:10:48 AM »
Haven't read the book yet but I'm definitely interested. Looks like it's pretty popular at the local library, may have to wait for a while.

What do you think the law should be surrounding them (specify country please)? US. I think it's ridiculous that psychedelic drugs are illegal but to put that position into perspective I also believe in the legalization or at least decriminalization of almost every drug. I say almost because I'm not familiar with every drug that exists and there may be a legitimate reason to control certain substances. My stance on legalization is not based on the notion that we have full bodily autonomy, rather that society would be better off with legalization.

Are they a net positive, or a net negative when it comes to society? Probably a net positive but there's very little data to go on, it's all anecdotes and personal feelings. If we don't legalize in the near future, I hope we at least see limitations on research removed. In a general sense I think they can have a humbling effect on a users personality and there's little evidence that anyone gets addicted to psychedelics. I think this world could use a bit more humility. Strong arguments for increased creativity and open mindedness as well.

Have you done them yourself? Little experience but I would be open to more. It's something I want, but not badly enough to source them. I've seen very little evidence of negative health consequences other than injuries sustained during use, so that's not a concern of mine. As long as you use responsibly in the right setting, you should be fine.

What do you base your views on? I've done a bit of reading on the topic but it's been years ago now, conversations with users, and limited personal experience. DMT: The Spirit Molecule by Rick Strassman was a very interesting read. It covers a rare case where legitimate research was done in a controlled way with intravenous DMT. That the first few chapters cover the years long process just to have a chance at performing the studies is rather disheartening but that was many years ago. I don't know if things have gotten better or worse since then. I've also read brief articles on the research being done with psilocybin (mushrooms) but nothing that goes into the details.


Poundwise

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2019, 08:58:16 PM »
I haven't ever taken psychedelics, and I have a horror of taking any psychoactive compound. My brain works well and I don't want to mess with that or change it.  I would say that psychedelic drugs should be legal for research or medicine, but I would not want young people taking them until their effects are well studied and known to be harmless. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2019, 07:28:34 AM »
While I think that people should be free to use most drugs (with certain safety regulations in place . . . driving while tripping is a sensible thing to make illegal for example), I've never really wanted to use psychedelic drugs myself.

I've known some people who were really into LSD and mushrooms.  My understanding is that they can really mess with your perception of reality, and that some people seem to feel more spiritual while taking them.  Net positive/negative to society - I'm not sure to be honest.

PoutineLover

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2019, 09:14:25 AM »
I've had some experience with lsd and mushrooms, and find them to be interesting and fun to do sometimes, but not too often or too much. Having experienced a bad trip, it's really not fun and anyone who tries them should definitely do their research and only partake in safe situations with safe people.
I am probably an outlier on this topic in that I believe that all drugs should be legalized or decriminalized. If it were up to me, it would be possible to purchase any drug in a known dose and purity from a legitimate producer who is inspected and taxed, with revenues going to treatment, research and information campaigns to make the inevitable use of mind-altering substances safer.
Whether they are a net positive or not is a difficult question. For me, it was, because my experiences allowed me to explore thoughts that I otherwise may not have had, and shifted my perspective in a positive way. I don't think that every person needs to try them, or that young and inexperienced people should do them without considering the risks. There is definitely potential for therapeutic use in controlled settings, and that could be a huge net positive, if it is carried out safely and research shows that it helps.

Dabnasty

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2019, 09:56:32 AM »
I've had some experience with lsd and mushrooms, and find them to be interesting and fun to do sometimes, but not too often or too much. Having experienced a bad trip, it's really not fun and anyone who tries them should definitely do their research and only partake in safe situations with safe people.
I am probably an outlier on this topic in that I believe that all drugs should be legalized or decriminalized. If it were up to me, it would be possible to purchase any drug in a known dose and purity from a legitimate producer who is inspected and taxed, with revenues going to treatment, research and information campaigns to make the inevitable use of mind-altering substances safer.
Whether they are a net positive or not is a difficult question. For me, it was, because my experiences allowed me to explore thoughts that I otherwise may not have had, and shifted my perspective in a positive way. I don't think that every person needs to try them, or that young and inexperienced people should do them without considering the risks. There is definitely potential for therapeutic use in controlled settings, and that could be a huge net positive, if it is carried out safely and research shows that it helps.

I don't know, I've been surprised that through a number of conversations directly and indirectly related to drug laws, members of this forum have been pretty consistently in favor of legalization or at least relaxing punishments. I don't know if that's representative of the general population and/or if the apparent positions of members are skewed by who speaks up on these topics, but it's been a surprise to me in any case. It's also an issue that we seem to agree on regardless of political affiliations.

Has anyone ever made a poll for mustachian opinions on drug law?

CindyBS

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2019, 11:22:57 AM »
I think their use in a therapeutic setting is vastly underutilized. I'm in the US.

I have used varying doses and different types of psilocybin containing mushrooms years ago, mostly recreationally, always on their own (not in combination with alcohol etc). The group of friends I had at the time were pretty amazing to be around. We didn't know dosing at all, but I will say that when we attempted therapeutic use of our own accord -- it's a whole different animal than recreational use; very profound to be in that space while someone is looking after you -- and our attempts were certainly clumsy.

I have no idea if there is any research into this, and actually haven't ever read anything about the scientific/therapeutic uses outside of personal accounts, but we as a group of crazy young adults also found that psychedelics were an incredible tool for building empathy. We spent many many hours at doses of various substances just enough to "tingle" and discuss the ways of the world. I could see a lot of potential uses, and agree that they aren't a class of substance that fosters addiction easily.

MAPS - Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies does a lot of work in this area.  https://maps.org/

jim555

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2019, 02:38:02 PM »
Is this a trap set by the fuzz?  I have never done any scheduled substances except by prescription.

J_Oden

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2019, 02:55:28 PM »
Is this a trap set by the fuzz?  I have never done any scheduled substances except by prescription.

Of course, every comment here is merely hypothetical, and for education and entertainment purposes.

Dabnasty

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2019, 03:00:30 PM »
Is this a trap set by the fuzz?  I have never done any scheduled substances except by prescription.

SWIM uses lots of drugs :)

Shane

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Re: Mustachians and Psychedelics
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2019, 05:54:22 PM »
@J_Oden, thanks for the book recommendation. Just placed a hold at the local library on Michael Pollan's new book How to Change Your Mind. Will be looking forward to reading it. Have you read anything by Sam Harris, who often mentions experiences with psychedelics and how they have been helpful to him? Haven't listened to it yet, but just found this Sam Harris podcast, which sounds interesting: Drugs and the Meaning of Life.

As a US resident, I agree with others, above, that psychedelics, marijuana and, really, all drugs should be legal. Most of the societal harms from drugs stem from the fact that they are illegal. People who have trouble with drugs, like addiction, should be offered treatment, which would be far cheaper than incarceration. Most people who use drugs are fine, don't need any help, and definitely don't benefit from being treated as criminals.

From the age of ~14 to ~25, I tried various types of psychedelics, probably a total of a dozen times. It was always a positive experience for me. I have good memories of tripping with friends. LSD and mushrooms seemed to open my mind to thinking about some things in different ways. Years later, looking back, I still can remember some of the experiences I had under the influence of psychedelics and how they changed my life - for the better. Definitely think psychedelics are a net positive for society.