Author Topic: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."  (Read 3931 times)

John Galt incarnate!

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Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« on: November 12, 2018, 02:13:54 PM »
Last night I was turning  the dial on my radio and I just happened to tune in a  talk-show host I had never heard before.

I didn't pay much attention to what he was saying.

Then he started talking to a guest he referred to as "a rich guy from New Jersey" who had been an  employee of Bloomberg News.

I think the guest's first name was Josh.

My ears pricked up when he spoke of FIRE.

Josh said that Mu$tachian$ are "cultists" who are opposed to consuming and that people should continue working to  earn as much money as possible.

He said Mu$tachians' frugality is deprivational.

He did not think highly of a $40,000 annual  retirement income generated by a 4% withdrawal rate from a $1,000,000 portfolio.

He declared  that $40,000 per year is insufficient.

Did any  of you hear him last night?





« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 02:17:00 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Johnez

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2018, 02:17:20 PM »
It's right on the front page, "Join the cult!"

So yeah.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2018, 02:22:40 PM »
No

Zikoris

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2018, 02:23:37 PM »
We're pretty culty for sure. I think that's what makes it fun. We have secret handshakes and lingo, a world headquarters, local chapters, and lots of money. Just wait until someone finally gets a Mustachian village going.

C-note

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2018, 07:19:21 PM »
We're pretty culty for sure. I think that's what makes it fun. We have secret handshakes and lingo, a world headquarters, local chapters, and lots of money. Just wait until someone finally gets a Mustachian village going.

I'm hoping for more of a commune than village.  :)

Abe

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2018, 08:44:40 PM »
Don't cults usually require people who join to give up something they value to "prove their loyalty" and such? Also there's some kind of emotional abuse?


brooklynmoney

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2018, 08:54:17 PM »
I’m gonna guess it was josh brown reformed broker but I might be wrong. I don’t know why it would matter anyway ha.

Zikoris

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2018, 11:18:06 PM »
Don't cults usually require people who join to give up something they value to "prove their loyalty" and such?

Consumerism? Their cars? Restaurant food? Lol.

nereo

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2018, 05:59:53 AM »
Remember who's saying this - a highly paid talking head on a radio show. It's clear he neither understands nor wants to understand the FIRE community.

Now that the FIRE lifestyle makes occasional appearences in the national media, it's become vogue to tear it apart as unrealistic and unnecessary lifetime deprivation. Suze Orman went on a FIRE podcast to give an off-the-walls tirade (FIRE... I hate it , i hate it, i hate it!).  Others have written click-baity articles where they misrepresent the whole premise.  The common thread among these people is they want to garner attention by shitting on mostly younger-people's dreams while not bothering to properly understand the underlying premises.  They are basically saying: FIRE's dumb; listen to me, because I have tons and tons of money, all because i work work work.

Look - there are decades of analysis on the relative safety of using a 4% WR, and points made about when and how it might fail and (more importantly) there are easy strategies to mitigate against these potential failures.  As for this proclaimation that $40k 'isn't enough' - it's more than what the majority of curent retirees have to live on, it's more than the majority of families in the US spend each year after taxes, and it's way more than most spend when you subtract out saving for retirement and work-related costs (e.g. commuting).   It's way more than 90% of families across the globe will ever have in a given year.
$40k is also no hard-and-fast rule to those wanting to FIRE; for most, if you aren't comfortable retiring on $40k/year you could retire on $60k/year just by working another 3-6 years.  It's up to the individual. More than a few around here have retired early and have six-figures to spend annually.
 
As for 'cultish' - it's a commonly used insult to label anything with a strong following a 'cult'. But mustachians really don't fit the true definition - it's about as accurate to say this is a cult as it is to say college basketball is a cult.  Whatever.  I'm here because it makes my life better, not because of some charismatic leader (Pete) or because I can't safely leave, and i haven't segregated myself away from spendy-pants individuals.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 06:51:32 AM by nereo »

GuitarStv

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2018, 06:49:40 AM »
It's always interesting when I hear someone use the word 'Cult'.  Cult simply means a religion or belief system that you don't agree with.

We don't worship anything, but I guess you could stretch the definition and say that belief in the 4% rule makes us a cult.  Except that many of us don't believe in the 4% rule.  Hmm.  Maybe you could make the argument that the belief that happiness doesn't require much money or many things to achieve is cultish.  I'd counter argue that belief that happiness does require things and lots of money is cultish though.

DS

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2018, 11:16:35 AM »
It's always interesting when I hear someone use the word 'Cult'.  Cult simply means a religion or belief system that you don't agree with.

We don't worship anything, but I guess you could stretch the definition and say that belief in the 4% rule makes us a cult.  Except that many of us don't believe in the 4% rule.  Hmm.  Maybe you could make the argument that the belief that happiness doesn't require much money or many things to achieve is cultish.  I'd counter argue that belief that happiness does require things and lots of money is cultish though.

So you are saying people should have a logical reason for saying things?!?!?!

dougules

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2018, 11:30:57 AM »
Don't cultists have to all believe the same thing?  I think for every MMM tenet, there are at least a few people in this forum that completely disagree.  I don't think you can make a cult from a bunch of contrary cats.

simonsez

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2018, 02:00:37 PM »
Cult became such a dirty word in the 60s and 70s, it's unfortunate.  It just means (or used to) people who follow a set of beliefs or practices.  Clearly the person using the term in this context is using it as a pejorative term intended to shame.

What's he selling?  I imagine he has some financial product he claims will eventually give you a lot more than 40k/year but you have to line his pockets handsomely along the way.

Cromacster

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2018, 02:29:38 PM »
I'm just here for the party.


marty998

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2018, 07:27:05 PM »

We don't worship anything, but I guess you could stretch the definition and say that belief in the 4% rule makes us a cult.  Except that many of us don't believe in the 4% rule.  Hmm.  Maybe you could make the argument that the belief that happiness doesn't require much money or many things to achieve is cultish.  I'd counter argue that belief that happiness does require things and lots of money is cultish though.

4 is too high. The rule I believe in is the 3.14159.....

Oh wait, wrong forum.


nereo

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2018, 07:18:19 AM »

We don't worship anything, but I guess you could stretch the definition and say that belief in the 4% rule makes us a cult.  Except that many of us don't believe in the 4% rule.  Hmm.  Maybe you could make the argument that the belief that happiness doesn't require much money or many things to achieve is cultish.  I'd counter argue that belief that happiness does require things and lots of money is cultish though.

4 is too high. The rule I believe in is the 3.14159.....

Oh wait, wrong forum.

Plugged 3.1415926 into cFireSim and, sure enough, 100% success rate after 30 and 40 year time frames... sure enough, 100% success

sol

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2018, 09:51:32 AM »
I prefer to think of it as the "cult of reason" and it's just a new incarnation of the driving force behind all of humanity's progress for the past five hundred years.  The secret is figuring out how to tap into your brain's higher mental processing power and using that power to make logical and defensible decisions about the best way to accomplish goals, instead of reacting blindly on emotion and instinct like an animal.

From that perspective, I am absolutely an acolyte.  I will preach the gospel of reason from the rooftops, because I honestly believe that it is our destiny as a species to leave behind our barbaric past and embrace this new modality.  It is our path to salvation.

Mustachianism is just the application of reason to your personal finances, but as a tool for human progress critical thinking is much more useful than that. 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 03:17:06 PM by sol »

ThatGuy

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2018, 02:20:10 PM »
We're pretty culty for sure. I think that's what makes it fun. We have secret handshakes and lingo, a world headquarters, local chapters, and lots of money. Just wait until someone finally gets a Mustachian village going.

Wait, there's a secret handshake!?  No one showed me the secret handshake!  I always get left out.

nereo

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2018, 02:46:59 PM »
We're pretty culty for sure. I think that's what makes it fun. We have secret handshakes and lingo, a world headquarters, local chapters, and lots of money. Just wait until someone finally gets a Mustachian village going.

Wait, there's a secret handshake!?  No one showed me the secret handshake!  I always get left out.

We only reveal it once you've reached "Handlebar" status.  Us "walruses" also get a copy of the key to the executive washroom. 
It really pays to stick around.

Zikoris

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2018, 03:36:40 PM »
We're pretty culty for sure. I think that's what makes it fun. We have secret handshakes and lingo, a world headquarters, local chapters, and lots of money. Just wait until someone finally gets a Mustachian village going.

Wait, there's a secret handshake!?  No one showed me the secret handshake!  I always get left out.

Ok, FINE, I'll do a demonstration - here's how Mustachians are SUPPOSED to greet each other.


nereo

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2018, 03:49:24 PM »
We're pretty culty for sure. I think that's what makes it fun. We have secret handshakes and lingo, a world headquarters, local chapters, and lots of money. Just wait until someone finally gets a Mustachian village going.

Wait, there's a secret handshake!?  No one showed me the secret handshake!  I always get left out.

Ok, FINE, I'll do a demonstration - here's how Mustachians are SUPPOSED to greet each other.
Spoiler: show



well great, now EVERYONE knows the secret greeting...

RetiredAt63

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2018, 05:22:20 PM »
That's how they found me at my first meetup on Vancouver Island, DDD came running over to my car with her mustache.   Very useful, as long as you get the right person, otherwise it is a bit weird.

nereo

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2018, 05:35:41 PM »
That's how they found me at my first meetup on Vancouver Island, DDD came running over to my car with her mustache.   Very useful, as long as you get the right person, otherwise it is a bit weird.

I would love to see that scene play out when an MMMer mistakenly runs up to a stranger and flashes our 'secret greeting'.
"oh... nevermind, carry on..."
Who's DDD?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2018, 05:51:21 PM »
That's how they found me at my first meetup on Vancouver Island, DDD came running over to my car with her mustache.   Very useful, as long as you get the right person, otherwise it is a bit weird.

I would love to see that scene play out when an MMMer mistakenly runs up to a stranger and flashes our 'secret greeting'.
"oh... nevermind, carry on..."
Who's DDD?

It was funny.  She was very relieved I was me, I think she had done it with someone else first and it was definitely awkward.

DebbieDoesDuncan.

Zikoris

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2018, 06:26:46 PM »
Oh god, running around flashing the secret signal at possible Mustachians sounds hilarious. I think I need to do that at out next meetup.

nereo

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2018, 05:09:42 AM »

We don't worship anything, but I guess you could stretch the definition and say that belief in the 4% rule makes us a cult.  Except that many of us don't believe in the 4% rule.  Hmm.  Maybe you could make the argument that the belief that happiness doesn't require much money or many things to achieve is cultish.  I'd counter argue that belief that happiness does require things and lots of money is cultish though.

4 is too high. The rule I believe in is the 3.14159.....

Oh wait, wrong forum.

Plugged 3.1415926 into cFireSim and, sure enough, 100% success rate after 30 and 40 year time frames... sure enough, 100% success

Oh -- come on now!  EVERYBODY knows that the correct SWR for 100% fully FIREd success at any age is 3.14159265358979323846.

If you want to take short cuts I guess you can round up to 3.1415927, but you're cutting it close if you ask me....

...but that extra 1/100¢ each year on a $1MM portfolio makes all the difference between a 'comfortable' retirement and one where you have to skimp to get by

nereo

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2018, 07:58:53 AM »
I think we need to start a new cult.  We can call it PiRE.

that makes it sound like we're setting ourselves literally on fire.


DS

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2018, 08:15:13 AM »
I think we need to start a new cult.  We can call it PiRE.

that makes it sound like we're setting ourselves literally on fire.


Isn't that what we are doing here?

nereo

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Re: Mu$tachian$ Are "Cultists."
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2018, 08:24:50 AM »
my personal goal here has always been to be symbolically FIREd - not literally in flames.
... but to each their own...

 

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