The Money Mustache Community
Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: Monocle Money Mouth on May 30, 2017, 03:27:38 AM
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As I was walking around the neighborhoods around my house, I've come to the conclusion that home ownership is not for most people. It seems that unless they are compelled to do so, they will not maintain their property. There are some well maintained homes in my neighborhood, but it seems like most people don't realize what they have gotten themselves into. They barely mow their lawns and when they do, they leave grass clippings everywhere. The sidewalks in front of their homes are a foot narrower than they should be because the grass is starting to grow on top of if. They don't bother putting any weed and feed on the grass in the spring so even when they do mow, 2 days later, their yard is full of 8" tall dandelion stems. I noticed a lot of people don't bother putting new mulch down in their mulch beds which eventually become weed beds. They don't trim their shrubs. They have English ivy starting to creep up their homes from their mulch beds. That's just the landscaping.
Some people have paint falling off the siding. I saw a few houses with gutters falling off the soffets. There were many where the gutters were filled with freshly sprouted maple seedlings and probably last falls leaves. There are a lot of big old trees in the neighborhoods and they often destroy the sidewalks. Sometimes after the tree is removed, they don't bother replacing the concrete.
I think when most people buy a house, they just look at the monthly mortgage payment and never really pay any attention to what the upkeep will cost or the amount of effort it will take on their part to maintain the house. I also think a lot of people don't consider what will happen as they age. They won't be physically capable of doing the work themselves, but they also may not be able to afford to have someone do the work for them. I'm witnessing this with my next door neighbor right now.
I used to think home owners associations and renting forever were stupid, but I kind of get it now. The way your neighbors maintain their property can have a serious impact on how much value your home retains. It doesn't matter if you keep your home pristine if your neighbors think it is fine to let their house fall in on itself from neglect. At least the home owners association means your neighborhood will have like minded people. The people that don't have the money or desire to maintain their property should just rent.
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Have you considered that some of those properties are bad landlords? That's certainly the case on my street. They only mow the lawn after someone calls the city on them, they don't get the eaves cleaned so that a 3 foot tree starts growing there and then the weight of the material pulls the eaves away from the roof, and the roof itself is starting to curl.
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It's possible. I honestly don't know how much rental property is in my neighborhood. Most of the houses have been like this for awhile and have had the same people living there. At least I have been seeing the same cars parked their for awhile. They could be long term renters, but I suspect they are the owners.
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Many landlirds believe that the tenants should be doing all the upkeep. I've even seen threads here on the subject. But why would a tenant invest in lawnmowers, lawn care, ladders etc only to have the rent jacked up to an unaffordable price a year later?
OP go live in a stuffy hoa neighbourhood with nosey neighbours. You can lead the association and wander around the neighbourhood leaving notices in everyone's mail boxes about their yards, driveways, laundry hanging etc. You'll feel real big and real good about yourself I'm sure.
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OP go live in a stuffy hoa neighbourhood with nosey neighbours. You can lead the association and wander around the neighbourhood leaving notices in everyone's mail boxes about their yards, driveways, laundry hanging etc. You'll feel real big and real good about yourself I'm sure.
Thanks for the advice.
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OP - Aaah the dandelions.
True story. One of my professors had visitors from Europe in the spring. The first morning they said to him, your yard is so beautiful, how did you manage to have it grow like that? He asked what they meant. They said The dandelions, your lawn is full of beautiful blooming dandelions, how did you manage to make them so happy? Point is, we see them as weeds (they came from Europe), the visitors thought they were wonderful.
Dandelions have deep roots and bring up minerals from the subsoil, which means their leaves add nutrients to the soil. The leaves are edible. The flowers make great wine (I've drunk it, yum). Having more than just grass adds species diversity and disease and drought resistance to the lawn. Clippings rot and add organic material to the soil.
You would not like my lawn.
The other stuff - older occupants who can't clean eaves-troughs any more? Who are on fixed incomes and can't afford painters? This is typical in older neighbourhoods. Long term renters? I know people who have been renting the same house for years.
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OP go live in a stuffy hoa neighbourhood with nosey neighbours. You can lead the association and wander around the neighbourhood leaving notices in everyone's mail boxes about their yards, driveways, laundry hanging etc. You'll feel real big and real good about yourself I'm sure.
Thanks for the advice.
I strongly recommend reading the book or seeing the film "A Man Called "Ove". It's free on Netflix now and will give you a little laugh about these types of things.
Because that's really all you can do. Personally, I like when people follow established rules, but it sounds as if you may not live in an area where there are any rules regarding home maintenance. I also don't like when people force unestablished rules down my throat. So, as you've probably guessed, I'm just a gem of a neighbor (ha).
For the lawn, what you envision is not sustainable. Why fight nature? Get rid of lawns and design a sustainable landscape that is appropriate for your area.
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OP - Aaah the dandelions.
True story. One of my professors had visitors from Europe in the spring. The first morning they said to him, your yard is so beautiful, how did you manage to have it grow like that? He asked what they meant. They said The dandelions, your lawn is full of beautiful blooming dandelions, how did you manage to make them so happy? Point is, we see them as weeds (they came from Europe), the visitors thought they were wonderful.
Dandelions have deep roots and bring up minerals from the subsoil, which means their leaves add nutrients to the soil. The leaves are edible. The flowers make great wine (I've drunk it, yum). Having more than just grass adds species diversity and disease and drought resistance to the lawn. Clippings rot and add organic material to the soil.
You would not like my lawn.
Dandelions are pretty, as long as they are yellow. At my house I try to fight them in the parking place where they grow in the gravel.
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Dandelions are also one of the most important flowers for bees which are endangered across much of the US. Think of the bees and let the dandelions grow.
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They barely mow their lawns and when they do, they leave grass clippings everywhere. The sidewalks in front of their homes are a foot narrower than they should be because the grass is starting to grow on top of if. They don't bother putting any weed and feed on the grass in the spring so even when they do mow, 2 days later, their yard is full of 8" tall dandelion stems.
General yard tidyness could be cause for concern, but grass and yards are one of the biggest waste of resources. I fully endorse not using weed and feed and letting the dandelions go hog wild.
A better option would be to plant native grasses and plants that require minimal upkeep and provide habitat for bee, butterflies, and other pollinators. I am in the process of eliminating most of my yard and replacing it in this fashion
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Many landlirds believe [that tenants are responsible for lawn care]...
Believe = written into the lease, in bold, with initials required next to it. But alas, many tenants are willing to be in violation of their lease terms on this issue. That's why lawn care is always included in the rent for my properties.
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If your lawn is overgrown with dandelions, it looks like ass. Period, full stop.
Spend the $18 on some dandelion killer and have some respect for your property.
That being said, OP, I walk around my block (double block, ~40 houses per street, ~100 houses total) almost every day with my dog, and of ~100 houses there are probably 5 who don't maintain their property. Seems like maybe you just live in a shitty area?
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I'm in the let's keep our bees happy camp. While the dandelions are in flower I don't cut. Once they are done and start going to seed, I cut. The clover is welcome. The bird's-foot trefoil and creeping Charlie not so much. The wild parsnip that has become invasive in our area, I will actually try to kill. However, my lawn is not a golf course.
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It's amazing how ingrained having a "nice" yard is in our culture. They're dandelions, ffs. It's not broken glass and syringes.
- Grass clippings left on the yard help fertilize it.
- Sidewalk concrete maintenance is often the city's responsibility because it's in the easement. Besides, most homeowners would fuck it up and make it lawsuit-worthy worse.
- Weed and feed? Fuck that shit. It flushes down the storm sewers and contaminates the river.
- English Ivy growing up the side of houses? That's a great look (though dangerous on most siding, especially wood).
Today, I am thankful that I live in a laid back neighborhood that doesn't care about my out-of-control xeriscaped yard. Or maybe my neighbors do care but I don't have any fucks to give.
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It's amazing how ingrained having a "nice" yard is in our culture. They're dandelions, ffs. It's not broken glass and syringes.
- Grass clippings left on the yard help fertilize it.
- Sidewalk concrete maintenance is often the city's responsibility because it's in the easement. Besides, most homeowners would fuck it up and make it lawsuit-worthy worse.
- Weed and feed? Fuck that shit. It flushes down the storm sewers and contaminates the river.
- English Ivy growing up the side of houses? That's a great look (though dangerous on most siding, especially wood).
Today, I am thankful that I live in a laid back neighborhood that doesn't care about my out-of-control xeriscaped yard. Or maybe my neighbors do care but I don't have any fucks to give.
Yup. Life is too short to give any fucks about maintaining wasteful artificial mono-cultures.
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My solution was to buy a house in the woods on 8 acres from which no other person's property is visible. Now I have no need to give any fucks about their home/lawn maintenance or lack thereof. Of course, they all do a fantastic job of keeping things up, so I really wouldn't have anything to complain about in the first place, but it's better this way.
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I used to think home owners associations and renting forever were stupid, but I kind of get it now. The way your neighbors maintain their property can have a serious impact on how much value your home retains. It doesn't matter if you keep your home pristine if your neighbors think it is fine to let their house fall in on itself from neglect. At least the home owners association means your neighborhood will have like minded people. The people that don't have the money or desire to maintain their property should just rent.
Wow. "Everyone else should maintain their house to my standards, and if they don't, they shouldn't own houses!"
You should run for your HOA board. You would be perfect for that type of little fiefdom that irritates everyone else for your own standards!
General yard tidyness could be cause for concern, but grass and yards are one of the biggest waste of resources. I fully endorse not using weed and feed and letting the dandelions go hog wild.
A better option would be to plant native grasses and plants that require minimal upkeep and provide habitat for bee, butterflies, and other pollinators. I am in the process of eliminating most of my yard and replacing it in this fashion
I think it depends on the area. I'm working on growing lawn over my septic field, but there's not a lot you can do over the leech field that doesn't compress the soil, and I'd rather not have things with deep roots that invade my drain pipes. That grass then goes into the compost pits (or stays to help build the mulch layer - I bag about every second mow).
The rest of the property is cheatgrass, though, which is also a work in progress to eliminate...
If your lawn is overgrown with dandelions, it looks like ass. Period, full stop.
I thought people liked looking at some sorts of asses.
My solution was to buy a house in the woods on 8 acres from which no other person's property is visible. Now I have no need to give any fucks about their home/lawn maintenance or lack thereof. Of course, they all do a fantastic job of keeping things up, so I really wouldn't have anything to complain about in the first place, but it's better this way.
I'm not on 8 acres, but I've got 2, surrounded by other unimproved family property, and that works nicely for us as well.
Of course, I've been told, by multiple people, that I'm the type of person HOAs exist to inhibit.
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Spend the $18 on some dandelion killer and have some respect for your property.
Or spend $0 and have some respect for the Earth.
Seems like maybe you just live in a shitty area?
Rudy McRudeFace
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Spend the $18 on some dandelion killer and have some respect for your property.
Or spend $0 and have some respect for the Earth.
Seems like maybe you just live in a shitty area?
Rudy McRudeFace
LOL.
Thanks BlueHouse. You beat me to the "Blowhard Beatdown".
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I think our yard is the worst maintained of all our neighbors. I just don't care enough for it to look ready for golfing. Our neighbors seem to be outside working on their lawns multiple times per week. So much time to spend on appearances.
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You think it’s selfish that people have dandelions on their yards because it isn’t as pretty to look at. I think it's selfish my neighbors’ lawns need to come with warning signs because of the toxic crap they are constantly spraying all over the freaking neighborhood every damn summer just to keep their lawns extra pretty. My lawn may not be as nice, but at least it isn’t at risk of poisoning anyone’s kid or dog. Priorities. There are far worse things people can do to their property that affects their neighbors than letting weeds grow.
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I think our yard is the worst maintained of all our neighbors. I just don't care enough for it to look ready for golfing. Our neighbors seem to be outside working on their lawns multiple times per week. So much time to spend on appearances.
Same here. My neighbors are out fussing with their yards, having companies coming every week to spray who-knows-what, etc. Mine is sort of green, and that's good enough for me.
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Our reel mower doesn't do a lot with the dandelions. I don't really like the long stalks with the seeds all over, but as others have said, the bees like them. I like bees. I probably like bees more than people. Certainly more than some people.
Only issue is we're now selling our house. Oh well. It'll have to be the right person to buy this place anyway. We've got asparagus, rhubarb, raspberries, a couple of apple trees, lots of bits and bobs of veg coming up. Lots of worms in the soil. Lots of flowers everywhere.
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On the flip side, when I see an immaculately cared for lawn, I see a huge waste of time, water and resources. You would be happier in a neighborhood with an HOA.
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Our reel mower doesn't do a lot with the dandelions. I don't really like the long stalks with the seeds all over, but as others have said, the bees like them. I like bees. I probably like bees more than people. Certainly more than some people.
Only issue is we're now selling our house. Oh well. It'll have to be the right person to buy this place anyway. We've got asparagus, rhubarb, raspberries, a couple of apple trees, lots of bits and bobs of veg coming up. Lots of worms in the soil. Lots of flowers everywhere.
Agreed.
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My solution was to buy a house in the woods on 8 acres from which no other person's property is visible. Now I have no need to give any fucks about their home/lawn maintenance or lack thereof. Of course, they all do a fantastic job of keeping things up, so I really wouldn't have anything to complain about in the first place, but it's better this way.
My house is in the middle of 13 acres and far enough off the road that any busy body looking to tell me how to maintain my property can't see it without trespassing. We let the grass grow much longer than the "Mr. and Mrs. Perfect" down the street who are constantly watering or maintaining their lawn. When late July/August comes and their lawn is a dead, brown eyesore, mine is well protected. I just let it sit till September, cut it once more and it's perfect (well, it's green) and the only watering I do is when I drive my car up on the lawn to wash it (double use of the water).
As is obvious, we have no chocolate covered Nazi infested HOA that we have to comply with.
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I am in the "don't spray anything" camp. I love the color of the dandelions, creeping Charlie, and violets mixed in with the grass. Plus the creeping Charlie smells great when you mow, and the bees love it. I hate the smell of pesticide, weed killer, etc., especially around my work which is supposed to be a place of healing. I live in the country so I can do what I want, but when I lived in town nobody cared how the yard looked.
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Our reel mower doesn't do a lot with the dandelions. I don't really like the long stalks with the seeds all over, but as others have said, the bees like them. I like bees. I probably like bees more than people. Certainly more than some people.
Only issue is we're now selling our house. Oh well. It'll have to be the right person to buy this place anyway. We've got asparagus, rhubarb, raspberries, a couple of apple trees, lots of bits and bobs of veg coming up. Lots of worms in the soil. Lots of flowers everywhere.
Agreed.
Also agreed. I check on the efforts of the bees, beeflies, spiders, and birds every morning in my garden. Which is practically a jungle. It's awesome.
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Man, if the biggest problem in your life is dandelions and mulch on OTHER people's property, you have a fucking amazing life.
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So you're THAT neighbor....
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Counterpoint: lawns are bad and no one should have them. Also see:
http://lifehacker.com/stop-mowing-your-lawn-1795653861
Manicured lawns seem like a byproduct of 1950's culture. Vegetable gardens, chickens, wildflowers, just about anything would be more productive. What's so great about grass anyway? Just my two cents.
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I feel lucky to be in a " middle of the road " neighborhood. No one neglects their place and only one or two go overboard with the hyper immaculate lawn appearance. We also all have lots of around an acre so as long as it is green you don't really notice a few weeds in the back.
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OP - Aaah the dandelions.
True story. One of my professors had visitors from Europe in the spring. The first morning they said to him, your yard is so beautiful, how did you manage to have it grow like that? He asked what they meant. They said The dandelions, your lawn is full of beautiful blooming dandelions, how did you manage to make them so happy? Point is, we see them as weeds (they came from Europe), the visitors thought they were wonderful.
Dandelions have deep roots and bring up minerals from the subsoil, which means their leaves add nutrients to the soil. The leaves are edible. The flowers make great wine (I've drunk it, yum). Having more than just grass adds species diversity and disease and drought resistance to the lawn. Clippings rot and add organic material to the soil.
You would not like my lawn.
The other stuff - older occupants who can't clean eaves-troughs any more? Who are on fixed incomes and can't afford painters? This is typical in older neighbourhoods. Long term renters? I know people who have been renting the same house for years.
Thank you! I've always wondered why people hate dandelions so much. I think they are pretty. And even if I did hate them I'm not going to dump poisons around my dwelling place just to make them go away.
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Our tax code encourages home ownership by many people that could live just as well in an apartment. I choose to live in an area with an HOA to help with people that do not care about pride of home/car ownership.
Move to a rigorous HOA.
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I'm firmly in the no-spray and dandelions are pretty camp. I get out there once or twice a week and knock down anything getting out of control with the reel mower and rotary edger.
My next door neighbors are some of the over the top immaculate lawn types who have a service stop by three times a week to maintain their lawn. They give me the stink eye whenever they see me. I do not live up to their standards. For my part I make dandelion headbands and blow well wishes their way.
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Counterpoint: lawns are bad and no one should have them. Also see:
Many rural lawns are the ground cover for the leach field. You can't grow anything with deep roots on a leach field - or let me rephrase that, you shouldn't grow anything with deep roots on a leach field, it messes it up.
Lawns are also great for playgrounds - if you have kids they can run around on the lawn. Those of us with dogs like to play with the dog on the lawn. It is nice to sit on the lawn on a summer day. Lawns, like any plant, will take up CO2 and make O2, and help manage runoff. I think they get a bad rap when they are grown in the wrong climate, when people water them all summer instead of letting them go dormant, or expect to have nothing but grasses in their lawn. These expectations mean that way too many fertilizers and herbicides are used and too much water is used.
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My solution was to buy a house in the woods on 8 acres from which no other person's property is visible. Now I have no need to give any fucks about their home/lawn maintenance or lack thereof. Of course, they all do a fantastic job of keeping things up, so I really wouldn't have anything to complain about in the first place, but it's better this way.
My solution was to buy a house between two rental properties. My lawn always looks great, relatively speaking.
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Many rural lawns are the ground cover for the leach field. You can't grow anything with deep roots on a leach field - or let me rephrase that, you shouldn't grow anything with deep roots on a leach field, it messes it up.
Yup. That's exactly why I'm currently fighting with getting my lawn in - I'd rather not have deep rooted stuff over my leach field. Half of it went in last summer. This summer's project is... weedy. Very, very weedy. And crabgrassy. I might just hit it with some chemicals once or twice to let the grass catch up - once it's going, it doesn't take much maintenance. Last year's bit is thick and other than some bare patches where seed got washed away, self maintaining. I water it once a week or so, but it's biomass for my compost pits.
I do agree that lawns in places like Phoenix are particularly silly, though.
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Counterpoint: lawns are bad and no one should have them. Also see:
Many rural lawns are the ground cover for the leach field. You can't grow anything with deep roots on a leach field - or let me rephrase that, you shouldn't grow anything with deep roots on a leach field, it messes it up.
Lawns are also great for playgrounds - if you have kids they can run around on the lawn. Those of us with dogs like to play with the dog on the lawn. It is nice to sit on the lawn on a summer day. Lawns, like any plant, will take up CO2 and make O2, and help manage runoff. I think they get a bad rap when they are grown in the wrong climate, when people water them all summer instead of letting them go dormant, or expect to have nothing but grasses in their lawn. These expectations mean that way too many fertilizers and herbicides are used and too much water is used.
Big difference between a bowling green or croquet lawn and.. what I have.
Most of my 'problems' are because of the reel mower. Most of the time it's fine, but if a dandelion has got a flower up, chances are the reel will just bend the stalk over and ignore the flower.
I have patches of greenery, some of which is grass. Some of which is bloody oregano because that stuff is literally growing like a weed - it's crazy. Then there's bits of raspberry cane poking up.. that just gets mown, ha.
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Ha! You'd probably hate my front yard!
Well, most of it is OK (where I live most yards are gravel covered) except for the little strip between the road and the sidewalk. The previous owners put down a weed barrier and then the most hideous red rock I've ever seen. In any event, over time, the dust and dirt has accumulated in the rock so now the weeds grow like crazy and are nearly impossible to remove. We may just dig the whole damn thing up this summer and start anew.
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Well, most of it is OK (where I live most yards are gravel covered) except for the little strip between the road and the sidewalk. The previous owners put down a weed barrier and then the most hideous red rock I've ever seen. In any event, over time, the dust and dirt has accumulated in the rock so now the weeds grow like crazy and are nearly impossible to remove. We may just dig the whole damn thing up this summer and start anew.
If the goal is that nothing grows there for a long while, there are various "salt the earth" herbicides that handle things for a few years.
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Counterpoint: lawns are bad and no one should have them. Also see:
Many rural lawns are the ground cover for the leach field. You can't grow anything with deep roots on a leach field - or let me rephrase that, you shouldn't grow anything with deep roots on a leach field, it messes it up.
Lawns are also great for playgrounds - if you have kids they can run around on the lawn. Those of us with dogs like to play with the dog on the lawn. It is nice to sit on the lawn on a summer day. Lawns, like any plant, will take up CO2 and make O2, and help manage runoff. I think they get a bad rap when they are grown in the wrong climate, when people water them all summer instead of letting them go dormant, or expect to have nothing but grasses in their lawn. These expectations mean that way too many fertilizers and herbicides are used and too much water is used.
Yup, the whole "laws are a giant waste of resources" thing is facepalming to me.
To have a nice (but far from award-winning) lawn I:
-Weed stop treatment 1x in the spring (~$18)
-Fertilize 1x in the fall (~$30)
-Mow weekly with a regular mulching mower (~20-30 minutes including weed eating and blowing off of patio/driveway)
-Spot treat with grass seed as needed for occasional bare patches
I don't water (except the spot treatments), I lay down pretty few chemicals, and I spend less than an hour a week maintaining it. In return, I get an aesthetically pleasing lot and a great spot to play with my kids and dog.
Also, it's far easier to maintain than to let it all go to shit and try to bring it back.
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I let wildflower "volunteers" grow and bloom when I find them in my yard. I've been slowly letting violets take over too. I kinda do have the yearning for a greener than green grass lawn, but I don't like putting any poison or extra fertilizer into the environment- all storm drains lead to the Mississippi. Plus a real waste of clean treated water for green green grass.
I'll be going for an all natural yard in the next couple years that I don't have to mow at all with native species and vegetables.
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Dandelions have pretty flowers, make a wonderfully healthy, good for you spring greens salad and fine dandelion wine. What's not to love?
If you can't appreciate the beauty of dandelion flowers...:) or revel in showing your kids to make a wish when you blow on the seedheads...
There is no way that I would pay money for someone to come and spray or spread poison chemicals on my property. We already have water restrictions in force, but even if we didn't, I find lawn watering a complete waste of water and a serious, offensive misuse of a valuable resource.
I garden organically, because I think that is the right thing to do - we have a ton of bees and butterflies, birds, bumblebees and a garden snake (black racer - harmless, feeds on rats and mice). Imagine - we consider oak leaves, shucks:) - mulch!, and therefore good for the garden.
There is a reason some people will spend good money on a fine house in a well established, well manicured neighborhood. It is how they prefer to live.
HOA - would be my worst nightmare. I hate those busybodies, trying to tell me what color my house "must" be or when and how low to cut my bushes.
OP - All actions have consequences. I can understand why MMM is house proud, or why my rich nephew bought well below what he could afford, but still in a pricey area.
Sounds to me like you bought a bargain? home in the wrong neighborhood.
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There is no way that I would pay money for someone to come and spray or spread poison chemicals on my property. We already have water restrictions in force, but even if we didn't, I find lawn watering a complete waste of water and a serious, offensive misuse of a valuable resource.
So, out of curiosity, what's your preferred shallow root cover for septic leach fields?
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There is no way that I would pay money for someone to come and spray or spread poison chemicals on my property. We already have water restrictions in force, but even if we didn't, I find lawn watering a complete waste of water and a serious, offensive misuse of a valuable resource.
So, out of curiosity, what's your preferred shallow root cover for septic leach fields?
Side question...what are these septic leach fields. I've never heard of this. Is it standard in a city?
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So, out of curiosity, what's your preferred shallow root cover for septic leach fields?
How about buffalo grass?
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There is no way that I would pay money for someone to come and spray or spread poison chemicals on my property. We already have water restrictions in force, but even if we didn't, I find lawn watering a complete waste of water and a serious, offensive misuse of a valuable resource.
So, out of curiosity, what's your preferred shallow root cover for septic leach fields?
Side question...what are these septic leach fields. I've never heard of this. Is it standard in a city?
@Syonyk - sorry, I don't know what septic leach fields are either. Surely there are some "wild weed type:)" grasses that would do the trick, would need little water and could be mowed if desired.
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Side question...what are these septic leach fields. I've never heard of this. Is it standard in a city?
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No, they're not a thing in a city where you have sewer. They're where a septic tank, which is the standard sewage system for a rural house, drains the liquid out after the good stuff gets eaten in the septic tank.
How about buffalo grass?
Certainly a reasonable option, though I'm not sure "lawns are evil" people would really distinguish mown buffalo grass from a normal lawn.
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Side question...what are these septic leach fields. I've never heard of this. Is it standard in a city?
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No, they're not a thing in a city where you have sewer. They're where a septic tank, which is the standard sewage system for a rural house, drains the liquid out after the good stuff gets eaten in the septic tank.
How about buffalo grass?
Certainly a reasonable option, though I'm not sure "lawns are evil" people would really distinguish mown buffalo grass from a normal lawn.
Yes we would, assuming you use native buffalo grass that isn't hybridized the hell out of.
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Why is that so much different from any other local grass, planted and mown?
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There is no way that I would pay money for someone to come and spray or spread poison chemicals on my property. We already have water restrictions in force, but even if we didn't, I find lawn watering a complete waste of water and a serious, offensive misuse of a valuable resource.
So, out of curiosity, what's your preferred shallow root cover for septic leach fields?
Side question...what are these septic leach fields. I've never heard of this. Is it standard in a city?
@Syonyk - sorry, I don't know what septic leach fields are either. Surely there are some "wild weed type:)" grasses that would do the trick, would need little water and could be mowed if desired.
Why is that so much different from any other local grass, planted and mown?
It isn't the grass I object to, it is the fact that in order for say St. Augustine grass, a popular choice here in Florida, it is necessary to water regularly and use weed killer to achieve that lush green look. (No poison - no wasting water on lawns)
We do have lawn out front, but it is never watered or fed. A couple of months out of the year it looks rather yellowish, but we do keep it cut regularly. Depending on the weather and the time of year, it does look pretty green, with only a fair amount of weeds in it.
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Unless you're going to play cricket on it daily or something, grass is *ucking stupid. It wastes water, pollutes everything, and makes people spend their lives maintaining it when they could do something fun or useful instead.
Cutting grass isn't "maintenance", it's pure unadulterated stupidity.
-W
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I'm spending plenty of time and gas cutting fire breaks anyway... I'd rather have a lawn out of the deal.
Also, those of you with nothing lawn like, where do your kids kick balls around and tumble?
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Also, this thread is a case study in why I don't live near other people who have any sort of say about my property.
Half of you think a lawn is an unforgivable sin, and half of you think anything that's not a golf course grade lawn is an unforgivable sin.
Meanwhile, I'm left alone to do what seems useful for my property and my needs. :)
Seriously, though. HOAs are the true idiocy.
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What's all this talk about having to water your lawn with some precious resource to keep it nice?
Where I live, we have so much water it literally falls from the sky.
I'll agree that some people are terrible at exterior maintenance and it makes a neighborhood look like an abandoned military zone. It's not hard to keep your place looking decent, even your lawn and landscaping. Keep your dandelions if you want, but it's not hard to keep your lawn mowed on the regular.
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Kids play in tall grass just fine. They love it, in fact. If they want to kick a ball around they can go do that at the park with other kids.
Best of all? They can have a future where streams have fish in them and the planet still works, because we didn't poison it all trying to get rid of dandelions and dumping nitrate fertilizers everywhere.
-W
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Kids play in tall grass just fine. They love it, in fact. If they want to kick a ball around they can go do that at the park with other kids.
My kid does not like running around in cheatgrass up to her chest - even if I mow it, the spines are still there and still get stuck in everything, skin included. There's plenty of other spikey stuff out there as well. And the park is a bit of a drive (or a decent bike ride, but it's a 55mph rural road we live on).
Best of all? They can have a future where streams have fish in them and the planet still works, because we didn't poison it all trying to get rid of dandelions and dumping nitrate fertilizers everywhere.
I'm not one for dumping chemicals on lawns, but the "lawns are entirely stupid" thing, especially when you're dealing with a septic system, is a bit far to one side of the range of reasonable.
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If you made the choice to live far from recreational facilities (bummer), by all means create your own. Yours is not the typical "mow the law on Sunday" situation, though. The entire American West should feature basically no grass. Full stop. Don't like it? Move to the South or New England where there's lots of moisture and lots of green stuff.
You're going to leave this world to your kids. Act like it.
-W
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You're going to leave this world to your kids. Act like it.
Our property is our recreational facility. I don't like cities, my wife doesn't like cities, we can't stand suburbia, and we're living close to family out here (as in, about a 3 minute walk, though a toddler can easily turn that into 15 minutes worth of checking out rocks, weeds, ants, and the occasional bird's egg).
My office is solar powered (I work from home so I have no commute beyond a 30 second walk), I make a good chunk of my money repairing old ebikes that the manufacturer has abandoned (and would prefer be thrown away) so people don't have to replace more than needs replacement, I do low energy and lower tech electronics research and development focused on internet-free useful things for property automation (also useful in developing nations), and I'm working towards a self sustaining homestead on my property (the house will be off-grid solar capable in another year or two - short on funds at the moment) because I think that's a very useful skill to have and to be able to share for local and community resiliency. I'm also planning on about 10k-15k gallons of rainwater storage on the property for irrigation and firefighting use (probably about 2k gallon lower limit, at which point I'll pump from the well), with suitable pumps for it. And some aquaponics greenhouses.
And I'm putting in a lawn over my septic field. I'm entirely OK with that. The kid loves it, the wife loves it, and it's shallow rooted enough that I'm not concerned about it interfering with my drain pipes. If it's not lawn, it's either cheatgrass (flammable pain in my ass) or tumbleweed (see previous, except it travels extensively). Or, apparently, Canada Thistle (evil plant of evil evilness).
I'm fine with how I'm raising my kid, and I'm fine with my environmental impact.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/BUuXxV6gjeG/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BUuXxV6gjeG/)
The horrors!
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https://www.instagram.com/p/BUuXxV6gjeG/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BUuXxV6gjeG/)
The horrors!
Wait... That doesn't look like ass!?
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Counterpoint: lawns are bad and no one should have them. Also see:
Many rural lawns are the ground cover for the leach field. You can't grow anything with deep roots on a leach field - or let me rephrase that, you shouldn't grow anything with deep roots on a leach field, it messes it up.
Lawns are also great for playgrounds - if you have kids they can run around on the lawn. Those of us with dogs like to play with the dog on the lawn. It is nice to sit on the lawn on a summer day. Lawns, like any plant, will take up CO2 and make O2, and help manage runoff. I think they get a bad rap when they are grown in the wrong climate, when people water them all summer instead of letting them go dormant, or expect to have nothing but grasses in their lawn. These expectations mean that way too many fertilizers and herbicides are used and too much water is used.
+1 Yes to this! Lawns are good for some things. Great middle of the road comment!
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I lived in suburbia growing up... we had just over 1/4 acre of land (small front yard, big back yard), and having that lawn to run around was the best. My parents weren't Mustachian by any means (they paid for a service to come mow every other week), but other than the flower beds that my mom would take care of (save for putting the fresh mulch down, she took care of everything else), we didn't care what the grass part looked like. It was green that had yellow and purple flowers and wild strawberries (alas, edible, but so small they just tasted like water). We had one (busy body) neighbor who was out literally almost every evening doing something to his lawn (we not so nicely joked that he would rather be outside working than inside listening to his wife scream at every little thing) and he always chided my mom for letting the dandelions grow ("They're pretty! Why would I want to kill them? Adds some nice color to the lawn.") and for having crab grass ("It's grass. It's green. What's the difference?")
I'm firmly in the camp of - only let it bother you if it affects you. Worried about chemical runoffs from neighbors using crap? Sure, be worried. Don't like looking at dandelions? Meh.
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Why is that so much different from any other local grass, planted and mown?
Because it's the foundational native species of shortgrass prairie, doesn't grow more than about 5 inches tall, and is highly drought tolerant. So can be planted and mostly never requires water, fertilizer, or mowing.
So if people feel they absolutely must have lawn in hot dry climates, that is the grass species they should use to have the least environmental impact.
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Interesting grass comments from people in massively different climates. Here (Ontario, so north of Northeast US) we have cold winters with snow, so grass is dormant and buried. Grass grows like mad spring and fall when there is lots of water. Some summers are wet and grass stays green all summer. Some summers are dry and grass goes dormant, unless you water. I am rural, on a well with a septic tank and leach field. I don't water because that would use well water, I don't want to stress my aquifer. Since I don't water and I don't weed except for nasties (burdock, thistles, wild parsnip), I have a greenish lawn in dry summers. I cut the grass at the highest setting so it is fairly long, and long grass means deeper roots that survive dry times better. I don't use fertilizer, I let the clippings decompose. I don't use herbicides unless there is no other way to get rid of a plant. I don't use insecticides, I value my pollinators. The lawn looks decent. If I don't cut my grass I am providing a haven for ticks. Lyme disease is closing in on us, I don't want ticks. If I really leave the lawn alone I will soon have a forest.
Where corn can be grown without irrigation there is plenty of water for grasses, since corn is a tall grass. In drier areas you get a mix of tall and short grasses. In even drier areas the native grasses are short grasses - so a native grass (a sod forming grass, not a bunch grass) will make lawn. Drier than that, xeriscape.
Lawns are made up of plants - they are good or bad like any other domesticated plant. People can use masses of fertilizers and pesticides and energy on other types of gardens or use very little. It depends on local conditions and the style of gardening.
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This is the most boring thread I've ever seen. Not once in this thread has anyone said anything approaching an interesting thought. May God have mercy on your soul.
I must say, your post has done nothing at all to contribute to the interest level. So...?
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I agree with OP, there are a ton of home owners out there that do not have the financial ability and / or are too darned lazy to keep their homes up and looking decent. They should rent.
I'm not a big lawn Natzi and could give a rip about dandelions, just wish they would cut the grass and weeds, get the junk out of their yards or out of sight, and keep the house and outbuildings in a general state of repair. Feel sorry for people who keep a nice place, then have these junky neighbors next door.
And whatever happened to painting? Everybody used to do house painting in the summer. As a kid, I remember that we had painting projects every summer at our house or my grand parents house re-painting the house exterior or trim. A little paint is cheap and goes a long way towards improving a homes appearance as well as weatherproofing things.
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I agree with OP, there are a ton of home owners out there that do not have the financial ability and / or are too darned lazy to keep their homes up and looking decent. They should rent.
I'm not a big lawn Natzi and could give a rip about dandelions, just wish they would cut the grass and weeds, get the junk out of their yards or out of sight, and keep the house and outbuildings in a general state of repair. Feel sorry for people who keep a nice place, then have these junky neighbors next door.
And whatever happened to painting? Everybody used to do house painting in the summer. As a kid, I remember that we had painting projects every summer at our house or my grand parents house re-painting the house exterior or trim. A little paint is cheap and goes a long way towards improving a homes appearance as well as weatherproofing things.
I bought a condo because I KNOW I don't want to spend my life doing prettifying stuff to the outside and grounds of a house. I think a lot of people buy into the mythos of being homeowners, but have no idea how much time or money actually goes into maintenance. Which probably contributes to a lot of the less-than-optimal state of many of the homes mentioned here.
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And I'm putting in a lawn over my septic field. I'm entirely OK with that. The kid loves it, the wife loves it, and it's shallow rooted enough that I'm not concerned about it interfering with my drain pipes. If it's not lawn, it's either cheatgrass (flammable pain in my ass) or tumbleweed (see previous, except it travels extensively). Or, apparently, Canada Thistle (evil plant of evil evilness).
I'm fine with how I'm raising my kid, and I'm fine with my environmental impact.
Just out of curiosity, what happens if you put no plants over your septic field, not even shallow rooted? We live in mexico and our lawn is bare dirt. We rake it regularly, to keep it looking tidy. Sounds ridiculous until you live here and try it. :)
Not in anyway judging your lawn, just genuinely curious.
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...get the junk out of their yards or out of sight...
One man's junk is another man's 1976 winch truck with a propane carb that gets used a few hours a year to haul a few tons around the property.
Just out of curiosity, what happens if you put no plants over your septic field, not even shallow rooted? We live in mexico and our lawn is bare dirt. We rake it regularly, to keep it looking tidy. Sounds ridiculous until you live here and try it. :)
Not in anyway judging your lawn, just genuinely curious.
The local stuff with really deep roots takes over and screws up the leach field in a few years.
Said stuff is generally highly flammable when it dries out in July and spikey.
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Some people must have been potty trained at gun point. I guess there is a good reason to have HOA neighborhoods so these people have some place to live.
We mow, We pull a few dandelions. We rake up the worst of the leaves. We don't pour poison all over the lawn. We leave the grass clippings.
We had a Type A move in next door and shortly thereafter he started screaming at my husband one evening for not getting ChemLawn and not having a perfect yard. My husband just laughed and told him our kids health is more important than crabgrass. Maybe the neighbor will stroke out at some point.
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Some people genuinely do not care if their lawn has weeds in it. I happen to be one of them. Don't get me wrong, if my yard was overcome by posion ivy or noxious weeds, I would do something about it but I am unconcerned about crabgrass, clover, etc. I have a big yard and I live in the country. I have no desire to work extremely hard at maintaining my lawn. I also probably don't mow my grass as often as many other people do. That said, I take other home maintenance very seriously and I meticulously maintain my vegetable gardens and flower gardens.
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Posting to follow the comments on this one.
I do not disagree with mies. Having moved many times in my adult life I can understand his comment. There are areas where you look at the houses and you can tell people don't care about the homes, and there are other area where you can tell people may not have money, but the houses are cared for.
I think the difference is some people view houses as just a commodity and for other people it is a home. I'm no lawn nazi, but I do prefer to be in a nicely cared for neighborhood.
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Just out of curiosity, what happens if you put no plants over your septic field, not even shallow rooted? We live in mexico and our lawn is bare dirt. We rake it regularly, to keep it looking tidy. Sounds ridiculous until you live here and try it. :)
Not in anyway judging your lawn, just genuinely curious.
Erosion. Rain, snow, snow melt, all run off and would take the soil along. The soil would end up in the ditch and on the driveway and eventually the pipes would be exposed. Even with plant cover, the municipality has to dredge ditches every so often.
Plus bare ground would not stay bare anyway. It would be weeds for a few years and then bushes and trees. Bare ground is a very temporary state here. The climate wants land to be covered in forest.
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Some people must have been potty trained at gun point. I guess there is a good reason to have HOA neighborhoods so these people have some place to live.
We mow, We pull a few dandelions. We rake up the worst of the leaves. We don't pour poison all over the lawn. We leave the grass clippings.
We had a Type A move in next door and shortly thereafter he started screaming at my husband one evening for not getting ChemLawn and not having a perfect yard. My husband just laughed and told him our kids health is more important than crabgrass. Maybe the neighbor will stroke out at some point.
No need to rake up the leaves. Just mulch mow them. Or compost them, or use them in your garden. Hell I steal many plastic bags full of leaves form neighbors every year, broadcast them on my lawn, and mow them in. I put several bags in my large compost bin.
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Some people must have been potty trained at gun point. I guess there is a good reason to have HOA neighborhoods so these people have some place to live.
We mow, We pull a few dandelions. We rake up the worst of the leaves. We don't pour poison all over the lawn. We leave the grass clippings.
We had a Type A move in next door and shortly thereafter he started screaming at my husband one evening for not getting ChemLawn and not having a perfect yard. My husband just laughed and told him our kids health is more important than crabgrass. Maybe the neighbor will stroke out at some point.
No need to rake up the leaves. Just mulch mow them. Or compost them, or use them in your garden. Hell I steal many plastic bags full of leaves form neighbors every year, broadcast them on my lawn, and mow them in. I put several bags in my large compost bin.
I ungarden and we have a push mower that unmulches. My red-faced neighbor would be apoplectic if we didn't rake.
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Some people must have been potty trained at gun point. I guess there is a good reason to have HOA neighborhoods so these people have some place to live.
We mow, We pull a few dandelions. We rake up the worst of the leaves. We don't pour poison all over the lawn. We leave the grass clippings.
We had a Type A move in next door and shortly thereafter he started screaming at my husband one evening for not getting ChemLawn and not having a perfect yard. My husband just laughed and told him our kids health is more important than crabgrass. Maybe the neighbor will stroke out at some point.
No need to rake up the leaves. Just mulch mow them. Or compost them, or use them in your garden. Hell I steal many plastic bags full of leaves form neighbors every year, broadcast them on my lawn, and mow them in. I put several bags in my large compost bin.
I ungarden and we have a push mower that unmulches. My red-faced neighbor would be apoplectic if we didn't rake.
Landscape, woods? Bueller, Bueller?
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Also, those of you with nothing lawn like, where do your kids kick balls around and tumble?
The living room and/or the park work well for us. :)
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HAHAHAHA whatever...
The property is NOT un-maintained just because they don't give a shit about their landscaping. A property is un-maintained when problems go unfixed that actually damage the property. If you want golf course lawns go move to a oppressive HOA community, pay your dues, and go judge your neighbors.
For the rest of us we will save boatloads of money and time and live out perfectly happy lives in our "naturally landscaped homes".
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I think some people are focusing a lot on the dandelions and ignoring the gutters hanging off the home, or maple trees going inside them. Those are definitely not "environmental choices." It's just lack of basic maintenance.
I can't really complain too much, though, I miss a bunch frequently. :(
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The newest Freakonomics podcast episode is about exactly this. I recommend everyone give it a listen. (Hint: Yards are a huge waste of resources)
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I rece eky listened to that podcast. I was excited and inspired by how much produce that one dude was able to get out of a few front yards' worth of space. It makes me very much look forward to my future front yard and the raised beds we are talking about.
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I rece eky listened to that podcast. I was excited and inspired by how much produce that one dude was able to get out of a few front yards' worth of space. It makes me very much look forward to my future front yard and the raised beds we are talking about.
We have been working to upscale our garden/orchard. Grass is takes so much maintenance and isn't very useful. I would much rather grow our own food. In our community, most people have rather large gardens at their houses and strive for local food/self sufficient lifestyles. It is very invigorating.
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Some people must have been potty trained at gun point. I guess there is a good reason to have HOA neighborhoods so these people have some place to live.
We mow, We pull a few dandelions. We rake up the worst of the leaves. We don't pour poison all over the lawn. We leave the grass clippings.
We had a Type A move in next door and shortly thereafter he started screaming at my husband one evening for not getting ChemLawn and not having a perfect yard. My husband just laughed and told him our kids health is more important than crabgrass. Maybe the neighbor will stroke out at some point.
No need to rake up the leaves. Just mulch mow them. Or compost them, or use them in your garden. Hell I steal many plastic bags full of leaves form neighbors every year, broadcast them on my lawn, and mow them in. I put several bags in my large compost bin.
You must not get many leaves. I have three large trees on my small lot, plus another couple small ones and several overhanging from neighbors' lots. Leaves are ankle deep in my yard in November/December unless raked. My mower would clog and shut off if I tried to mow throw it all.
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I've got a yard full of big Sycamore trees that dump a bunch of huge leaves. If I didn't clean them up and burn them, the place would be a mess.
They are also a fire hazard when drifted deep around the base of the house, as well as creating mice & rodent habitat, etc.
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I own my home in a drought-ridden area. I covered my lawn with mulch and I have a huge vegetable patch in my front yard. My kids' toys are all over the lawn because we hang outside every day in the beautiful weather.
My neighbors to the right have a small patch of lawn and impeccably pruned rose garden. My neighbor to the lefts lawn died and so they had it resodded and has sprinklers running. Her lawn service (mowing & leaf blower) comes Saturday and I have to scuttle my kids inside to prevent the intake of the toxins created & blown around. My neighbor to the back's lawn service comes at 7:30 on Tuesdays. Wakes me up. We are adjacent to a park and they mow the lawn on Wednesdays which I have a huge allergy to, so I have to stay inside and close the windows.
I think my yard is beautiful. I look at it and I see "environmentally conscious", "nutritious eater", "busy raising kids". I look at my neighbors' yards and think "has a lot of free time that needs to be filled with pointless duties like pruning", "doesn't care about water conservation", "doesn't car about noise & air pollution". I look at the park and think "thank you for having a lawn so I don't have to maintain one, but do I want my taxes going to mowing & watering something many people are allergic to?".
My point: judgment on a person's home is in the eye of the beholder. That doesn't really make sense, but you get my point. I love my yard and my neighbors probably hate it. I don't really like theirs, but I do like them.
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Unless you're going to play cricket on it daily or something, grass is *ucking stupid. It wastes water, pollutes everything, and makes people spend their lives maintaining it when they could do something fun or useful instead.
Cutting grass isn't "maintenance", it's pure unadulterated stupidity.
-W
We attened A national convention devoted to a particular plant. The convention was held in Iowa, and we rode around in buses for two days looking at this plant in Gardens.
The guy across the aisle was from California and he was a talker and he was opinionated, and he spent quite a bit of time bloviating about all of the green grass and the resources it takes to keep it that way and [implied] those in flyover country are stupid. What he doesn't realize is that in Iowa it just grows that way. It is lush. It is green. It is beautiful.
I realize that those who live in the Land of Brown do not get it about grass because in the Land of Brown yes, untold resources are necessary to keep the green grass green.
Granted, and flyover country we do have to move the stuff and that takes time and gas, but if you keep your grass high it is a little less maintenance and also it's healthier for the grass.
I have several gardens in the city and I don't love grass especially, I do like small strips of it because they sent off the flower gardens. But here in the city neighborhood with Victorian houses and tiny lots there is no need for grass at all.
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Unless you're going to play cricket on it daily or something, grass is *ucking stupid. It wastes water, pollutes everything, and makes people spend their lives maintaining it when they could do something fun or useful instead.
Cutting grass isn't "maintenance", it's pure unadulterated stupidity.
-W
We attened A national convention devoted to a particular plant. The convention was held in Iowa, and we rode around in buses for two days looking at this plant in Gardens.
The guy across the aisle was from California and he was a talker and he was opinionated, and he spent quite a bit of time bloviating about all of the green grass and the resources it takes to keep it that way and [implied] those in flyover country are stupid. What he doesn't realize is that in Iowa it just grows that way. It is lush. It is green. It is beautiful.
I realize that those who live in the Land of Brown do not get it about grass because in the Land of Brown yes, untold resources are necessary to keep the green grass green.
Granted, and flyover country we do have to move the stuff and that takes time and gas, but if you keep your grass high it is a little less maintenance and also it's healthier for the grass.
I have several gardens in the city and I don't love grass especially, I do like small strips of it because they sent off the flower gardens. But here in the city neighborhood with Victorian houses and tiny lots there is no need for grass at all.
This is true only to some extent. I didn't originally live in drought ridden areas...I lived in the Great Lakes region...lush and lenty of rain. Lawn still doesn't grow easily or well in all areas of those states without tons of soil amendments. My dad struggles to this day with his Wisconsin lawn of 40+ years...the soil is too acid and poor where he to make it lush without an amazing amount of effort.
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We replaced our small lawn (too small to be usable for anything really - fyi it had dandelions) with drought tolerant landscape and a small veggie garden. I'm lazy and drought tolerant plants aren't fussy and virtually maintenance free. We can easily manage a small veggie garden, and can grow crops year round in Coastal California.
Back to the original topic...
From what I've observed in my neighborhood, many people (homeowners and renters) don't properly maintain their home or anything else for that matter because they are too damn busy. There's some kind of collective insanity that every second of every day must be filled with some activity--either that or slouched in front of the TV/game console because they're exhausted. Work hard, play hard, or something like that. The kids have to be in traveling sports leagues that require spending every weekend away in some godforsaken town halfway across the state. Lots of "enrichment" activities for the kids after school. Add in a 50+ hour work week for both parents and a long commute and people simply don't have the time or energy to take care of things, including cars, bikes, health, appliances, pretty much anything.
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The state of my home and yard is nobody's business but mine. You don't like how it looks, don't buy a house next door. Our maintenance is not perfect, and I don't care. The house is safe, it is functional, who cares if there is some faded paint or debris on the patio or a toy left out in the yard? I will worry about whether my house makes me happy, not you. My house is not hurting you or anyone. Living our lives the way we like is called freedom, and we will exercise ours.
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HOAs don't prevent some of those things. My current house is part of an HOA. (I'd rather not live in an HOA neighborhood but most houses in my town are either built in the 50s or before with no HOA and are in bad fixer upper condition or were built 90s+ and are part of an HOA. I'm gonna build a new house on non-HOA land that I'm working on buying. But that's another topic.) The HOA rules say you have to keep the grass mowed, but they say nothing about keeping the grass edged so it doesn't take over the sidewalk, or about keeping out weeds/dandelions/crabgrass, or about cleaning up grass clippings, or anything like that. There are certainly neighbors in my neighborhood that don't take care of the yard very well and only mow when the grass gets so high that they're probably getting harassed by the HOA.
I try really hard to maintain the outside appearance of my yard/house, but I literally live next door to somebody who is obsessed with their garden *and* is on the HOA board. I do find it fun/relaxing to maintain my garden/yard to a certain extent, but I won't lie - that neighbor next door does make me feel a certain amount of peer pressure about it. And that's with my yard being kept fairly top-tier too.
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The state of my home and yard is nobody's business but mine. You don't like how it looks, don't buy a house next door. Our maintenance is not perfect, and I don't care. The house is safe, it is functional, who cares if there is some faded paint or debris on the patio or a toy left out in the yard? I will worry about whether my house makes me happy, not you. My house is not hurting you or anyone. Living our lives the way we like is called freedom, and we will exercise ours.
I'm willing to believe you believe this, but I wonder what your perspective would be if someone moved in next door to you and turned their place into a garbage house. Thus sending your property value down.
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Over the Hedge nailed people who obsess over HOA rules and Their Property Values. :)
This thread has a lot of that going on.
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The state of my home and yard is nobody's business but mine. You don't like how it looks, don't buy a house next door. Our maintenance is not perfect, and I don't care. The house is safe, it is functional, who cares if there is some faded paint or debris on the patio or a toy left out in the yard? I will worry about whether my house makes me happy, not you. My house is not hurting you or anyone. Living our lives the way we like is called freedom, and we will exercise ours.
It's your business until it affects the price of homes in the neighborhood. Then it's my business.
For example, there was a neighbor selling his home. They had multiple people turn in comments because of the condition of the house next door (not unsafe, just unkempt, especially the lawn). His house was not selling partially due to his neighbors lack of routine maintenance.
Needless to say, the seller went and mowed bad neighbor's lawn. Bad neighbor was upset. He called the cops. Yeah, the police came over a lawn. Ridiculous. But the house sold once regular maintenance returned. (Both neighbors are now gone)
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The state of my home and yard is nobody's business but mine. You don't like how it looks, don't buy a house next door. Our maintenance is not perfect, and I don't care. The house is safe, it is functional, who cares if there is some faded paint or debris on the patio or a toy left out in the yard? I will worry about whether my house makes me happy, not you. My house is not hurting you or anyone. Living our lives the way we like is called freedom, and we will exercise ours.
It's your business until it affects the price of homes in the neighborhood. Then it's my business.
For example, there was a neighbor selling his home. They had multiple people turn in comments because of the condition of the house next door (not unsafe, just unkempt, especially the lawn). His house was not selling partially due to his neighbors lack of routine maintenance.
Needless to say, the seller went and mowed bad neighbor's lawn. Bad neighbor was upset. He called the cops. Yeah, the police came over a lawn. Ridiculous. But the house sold once regular maintenance returned. (Both neighbors are now gone)
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It may be of interest to you, but it is not (directly) in your control.
Mowing someone else's lawn without their consent is trespassing. That is illegal.
You deal with it by cajoling, or by bribery, but not by breaking the law.
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The state of my home and yard is nobody's business but mine. You don't like how it looks, don't buy a house next door. Our maintenance is not perfect, and I don't care. The house is safe, it is functional, who cares if there is some faded paint or debris on the patio or a toy left out in the yard? I will worry about whether my house makes me happy, not you. My house is not hurting you or anyone. Living our lives the way we like is called freedom, and we will exercise ours.
It's your business until it affects the price of homes in the neighborhood. Then it's my business.
For example, there was a neighbor selling his home. They had multiple people turn in comments because of the condition of the house next door (not unsafe, just unkempt, especially the lawn). His house was not selling partially due to his neighbors lack of routine maintenance.
Needless to say, the seller went and mowed bad neighbor's lawn. Bad neighbor was upset. He called the cops. Yeah, the police came over a lawn. Ridiculous. But the house sold once regular maintenance returned. (Both neighbors are now gone)
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It may be of interest to you, but it is not (directly) in your control.
Mowing someone else's lawn without their consent is trespassing. That is illegal.
You deal with it by cajoling, or by bribery, but not by breaking the law.
Sorry if I was unclear. I did not or did I advocate for trespassing. Just that your lawn becomes someone else's business when it affects one of their outcomes. Then some people will take drastic measures. Point being the neighbor trespassing.
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Lots of things affect your property values. I can paint my house a color your potential buyer finds unattractive. I can have a big family of kids out playing in the yard, which your grumpy potential buyer might not like. I can plant flowers or trees some people don't like the appearance of. I can have an old crappy car in the driveway, I can rent a room out to a single mom, I can be a black guy, or gay, or whatever.
None of that means it's your business - nobody is required to kowtow to you to maintain your property values, unless they're doing something unsafe or illegal (obviously, in an HOA, there can be a lot more rules). If you want to live somewhere with perfectly manicured lawns and coordinated pastel colors, you can certainly find a covenant controlled neighborhood like that. Otherwise, you are shit out of luck if you don't like what my house looks like.
-W
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It's amazing how ingrained having a "nice" yard is in our culture. They're dandelions, ffs. It's not broken glass and syringes.
- Grass clippings left on the yard help fertilize it.
- Sidewalk concrete maintenance is often the city's responsibility because it's in the easement. Besides, most homeowners would fuck it up and make it lawsuit-worthy worse.
- Weed and feed? Fuck that shit. It flushes down the storm sewers and contaminates the river.
- English Ivy growing up the side of houses? That's a great look (though dangerous on most siding, especially wood).
Today, I am thankful that I live in a laid back neighborhood that doesn't care about my out-of-control xeriscaped yard. Or maybe my neighbors do care but I don't have any fucks to give.
Yup. Life is too short to give any fucks about maintaining wasteful artificial mono-cultures.
This! Maybe I'm affected by the drought, and laziness?
My neighbor up the street works from home. And she takes great care of her yard. She has a variety of low water plants in her front, and I was so happy to see the bees happily buzzing away up there. My other friend has tried to do the same, but her nextdoor neighbor uses RoundUp, and she cannot get the bees to come at all.
Our lawn (the back lawn) died a few years ago, about 3 years into the multi-year drought. We are still not out of the drought (one of the few areas in CA). I do not have a lawn to mow, I have a dirt patch. We did remove several dying trees when we moved in. We are "that neighbor" with dirt and lots of gopher holes in the front, but a very nice hedge.
Honestly - we both have full time jobs. And two kids. I just don't really give a rat's ass about the dirt patch. I keep my kids alive and happy. *some day* we may replace the dirt patch with Silver Carpet, or another low-water low-maintenance ground cover. But that day will not come until *after* replacing the sewer line.
And OMG, have you ever gone to an open house where the house was built in the 1920's, 1940's, or 1960's and was NEVER UPDATED??? What's up with that?
Um, the homeowners liked it that way?
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Also, this thread is a case study in why I don't live near other people who have any sort of say about my property.
Half of you think a lawn is an unforgivable sin, and half of you think anything that's not a golf course grade lawn is an unforgivable sin.
Meanwhile, I'm left alone to do what seems useful for my property and my needs. :)
Seriously, though. HOAs are the true idiocy.
We avoided HOAs, but a friend or two live in one.
I admit it is tempting. The houses are newer, the lots are extremely small. The front "yards" are mostly sidewalk and a few low-water plants. Easy maintenance. The back "yards" are whatever you want. And two pools and a gym.
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And OMG, have you ever gone to an open house where the house was built in the 1920's, 1940's, or 1960's and was NEVER UPDATED??? What's up with that?
Um, the homeowners liked it that way?
That's how you get a good deal on a house.
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A house I have used to be the worst in the neighborhood. A neighbor told me a story that someone had left her a free lawn mower, tank full of gas with a sign that said "use me."
In my city, we have some pretty basic property laws to keep people in check. You have to mow your law, shovel the snow, keep it garbage free and any cars on the property have to be registered, to keep junk cars from happening.
There are more broken window ordinances on the books that they stopped enforcing aggressively 5-10 years ago, but they could still be used to keep a problem house in check, but I think they really only get used when things start to get really bad, or it's a problem property.
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It's amazing how ingrained having a "nice" yard is in our culture. They're dandelions, ffs. It's not broken glass and syringes.
- Grass clippings left on the yard help fertilize it.
- Sidewalk concrete maintenance is often the city's responsibility because it's in the easement. Besides, most homeowners would fuck it up and make it lawsuit-worthy worse.
- Weed and feed? Fuck that shit. It flushes down the storm sewers and contaminates the river.
- English Ivy growing up the side of houses? That's a great look (though dangerous on most siding, especially wood).
Today, I am thankful that I live in a laid back neighborhood that doesn't care about my out-of-control xeriscaped yard. Or maybe my neighbors do care but I don't have any fucks to give.
Yup. Life is too short to give any fucks about maintaining wasteful artificial mono-cultures.
This! Maybe I'm affected by the drought, and laziness?
My neighbor up the street works from home. And she takes great care of her yard. She has a variety of low water plants in her front, and I was so happy to see the bees happily buzzing away up there. My other friend has tried to do the same, but her nextdoor neighbor uses RoundUp, and she cannot get the bees to come at all.
Our lawn (the back lawn) died a few years ago, about 3 years into the multi-year drought. We are still not out of the drought (one of the few areas in CA). I do not have a lawn to mow, I have a dirt patch. We did remove several dying trees when we moved in. We are "that neighbor" with dirt and lots of gopher holes in the front, but a very nice hedge.
Honestly - we both have full time jobs. And two kids. I just don't really give a rat's ass about the dirt patch. I keep my kids alive and happy. *some day* we may replace the dirt patch with Silver Carpet, or another low-water low-maintenance ground cover. But that day will not come until *after* replacing the sewer line.
And OMG, have you ever gone to an open house where the house was built in the 1920's, 1940's, or 1960's and was NEVER UPDATED??? What's up with that?
Um, the homeowners liked it that way?
I think people might have a better appreciation for what's important if they actually had to do some more of their own maintenance. Which kind of goes right back into the topic of this thread, I guess!
A lot of people seem to think that houses just magically maintain themselves and the most important thing is what color granite is on your countertop.
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This has been an interesting thread to read. I tried to attach a picture of part of our yard (not sure if it worked) - the raised hill is our septic leaching field. We moved here a year ago and inherited the grass and gardens as they are.
We don't water or fertilize the grass, and there are definitely dandelions, other weeds, and mushrooms that spring up. We do keep it mowed, though, and we weed the various gardens. Yes, yard care takes time, but unlike others on this thread who would see that as a drag on other things they'd like to do, I enjoy yard work and always have. It forces me outside, mowing is a great 'instant gratification' task (plus alone time), and we all love hanging out outside in a nicely tended yard in the warm months. To wit, last night my book group ladies came over and we drank wine and ate sorbet outside.
Last year we had drought conditions and the yard went dormant mid-July. I have no idea what grass species we have - I know there are several - they were various shades of brown for much of the summer. It looked bad, but then, everybody's yard did. <shrug>
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Freedom,
I agree that yardwork is actually among the more rewarding, less intensive tasks. If you ask me to mow the lawn or wash the dishes, I'll mow the lawn 10 times out of 10.
Fertilizing, if you choose to do so, is relatively simple. Edging is a problematic, but not a huge issue.
I spent 4 hours filling in siding holes with wood filler and repairing a rotted window frame. That's irritating. It's even more irritating knowing that I still have to prime and paint the crap, and then I had to spend another 3 hours washing the storms, panes, and frames of only 5 other windows, and I still have another 15 to go. And that's not done, either, because I need to revarnish all of them, too.
Yeah, yardwork looks easy by comparison....
Can't wait for when that roof needs to be replaced....I hear that's a blast.
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i've definitely seen this with older family members. i think it's nice that the most recent grandparent was able to move into an apartment that specifically caters to older people. i don't know if this existed in time for my other relatives.
i also really feel your complaint about the gutter problem. it can eventually mess up the problem person's own house and cause flooding so it's a bit more serious than the lawn. some of it is about making the initial investment like ppl are saying about the yard, getting the right grass, knowing how septic works. i know my family got taken advantage of when constructing the house. we didn't get covered gutters and my grandfather didn't have the experience of a larger/nicer home/construction to know that they were cutting corners. for the next 30 yrs we struggled with the baby trees in the gutter! and it only took a few weeks in the spring to have that problem.
otoh, since my grandfather was from a rural area he was really good about planning for the septic tank between grass and trees for pH and root depth. maybe it's not just laziness or lack of funds. could it be they literally don't know how?
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How many of you know if you let your grass "go to seed" (literally) several times per year and don't bag the clippings, you are reseeding your lawn; for free?
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My other friend has tried to do the same, but her nextdoor neighbor uses RoundUp, and she cannot get the bees to come at all.
There is no correlation between those two statements, whatsoever. You are aware that RoundUp is an herbicide, not an insecticide, aren't you?
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Blame the folks that voted in zoning that promotes sprawl. In my city it's illegal to build anything other than houses with a big lot or "garden" apartments with big parking lots. Your options are a house with a huge lawn or a crappy apartment that still costs more over the long run than all the expenses with the house. Townhouses, small lot houses, or condos are uncommon, expensive, and only available in a few neighborhoods.
A lot of us don't want to have to maintain a big house and a huge lawn, but the law makes it a moral imperative. Don't blame us if we don't care to mow every 3 days.
So you're THAT neighbor....
+1
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When I was growing my house was the one with the big wild garden, kinda long grass and lots of dandelions. I don't believe in wasting water on watering lawns or using chemicals to control naturally growing plants. Weeds are a social construct. Our neighbor was down on his hands and knees trimming the grass around his carefully outlined garden plots with scissors every week, that was nuts. Basic maintenance like cleaning the gutters, replacing the roof and painting dilapidated shutters should be done of course, if only to prevent bigger issues down the line. My landlord is a piece of shit and won't do anything to fix my apartment, but I got sick of the shitty walls and painted them myself because I have to see them every day. The neglect is going to cause issues though, and eventually it will cost more money than if it had just been maintained in the first place. Not gonna be my problem.
OP might be better off in a neighborhood where rules are strictly enforced, but that would be my personal hell. If moving isn't on the table than that quote about accepting the things you cannot change is applicable here.
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My other friend has tried to do the same, but her nextdoor neighbor uses RoundUp, and she cannot get the bees to come at all.
There is no correlation between those two statements, whatsoever. You are aware that RoundUp is an herbicide, not an insecticide, aren't you?
Last year, after a decade-long battle, the EPA finally admitted that Roundup had a devastating effect on the bee population and may be a major contributor to Colony Collapse. But I'm sure all that data's gone now.
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My other friend has tried to do the same, but her nextdoor neighbor uses RoundUp, and she cannot get the bees to come at all.
There is no correlation between those two statements, whatsoever. You are aware that RoundUp is an herbicide, not an insecticide, aren't you?
Last year, after a decade-long battle, the EPA finally admitted that Roundup had a devastating effect on the bee population and may be a major contributor to Colony Collapse. But I'm sure all that data's gone now.
Uhhh...not to cast aspersions, but I am having trouble finding reference to this.
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So .. what books / websites / resources would you suggest for first time homeowners who may have lived in houses growing up, but then spent 15 - 20+ years in apartments (and really don't know much.)?
We live in a 1952 built home with one previous owner. It has 5/8th of an acre - mostly backyard. A fair amount of trees/bushes and a garden space (full of weeds at the moment - mowed over weeds.). The previous homeowners did a lot of DIY stuff in the house (built their own cabinets for the upstairs kitchen, the closets are definitely not standard closets, etc., etc.)
My DH wanted the big yard and the basement. I just wanted something with enough yard for a small garden and a decent kitchen. Neither of us were quite prepared for how much work it really would be. Our property before we bought it was meticulously maintained - the wife was out there the day before we moved in trimming the hedges. To put it mildly, we have not maintained their standards.
My husband was supposed to do all the yard/house maintenance, and I do the inside - but he has been overwhelmed. (So have I to a certain extent, going from 1 cat to many cats. The cat fur. The hairballs. The necessary litterboxes ...)
Where can we learn the minimal amount of maintenance to make sure our house / yard doesn't fall apart/cost us $$$ repairs later?
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So .. what books / websites / resources would you suggest for first time homeowners who may have lived in houses growing up, but then spent 15 - 20+ years in apartments (and really don't know much.)?
Where can we learn the minimal amount of maintenance to make sure our house / yard doesn't fall apart/cost us $$$ repairs later?
Pave over the yard? Seriously though, like all maintenance, once you establish a standard, it's a lot easier going forward to keep it the way you want.
Clean your gutters once a year. While you're up there look at the roof and no shingles are coming up. Look around the house every year and see if the paint or siding etc is in good shape. Turn off the water to your water hose, drain it and put it away before winter. If you have window wells, cover them and make sure they are intact. Keep the dirt/yard from encroaching on your sidewalks.
As for yard work, it all depends on what you want your yard to be. If you're not used to doing yard work, start by spending 20 min a day out in the yard doing something for a few weeks. Weed, clip some hedge, pile up the brush, whatever. Mow the lawn once a week. Over time, ramp up that time to what is reasonable to you. If you want it perfect, you'll have to spend more time. Or hire a lawn service to do it for you.
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So .. what books / websites / resources would you suggest for first time homeowners who may have lived in houses growing up, but then spent 15 - 20+ years in apartments (and really don't know much.)?
Where can we learn the minimal amount of maintenance to make sure our house / yard doesn't fall apart/cost us $$$ repairs later?
Pave over the yard? Seriously though, like all maintenance, once you establish a standard, it's a lot easier going forward to keep it the way you want.
Clean your gutters once a year. While you're up there look at the roof and no shingles are coming up. Look around the house every year and see if the paint or siding etc is in good shape. Turn off the water to your water hose, drain it and put it away before winter. If you have window wells, cover them and make sure they are intact. Keep the dirt/yard from encroaching on your sidewalks.
As for yard work, it all depends on what you want your yard to be. If you're not used to doing yard work, start by spending 20 min a day out in the yard doing something for a few weeks. Weed, clip some hedge, pile up the brush, whatever. Mow the lawn once a week. Over time, ramp up that time to what is reasonable to you. If you want it perfect, you'll have to spend more time. Or hire a lawn service to do it for you.
Thanks!
Speaking of window wells - we have a lot of those. All but two have either cracked or missing covers. We looked at the ones at ACE and Home Depot, etc., but they were the wrong dimensions. We've also tried finding them online. Where could we get custom ones? I think the wells were another DIY project from previous homeowner.
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My other friend has tried to do the same, but her nextdoor neighbor uses RoundUp, and she cannot get the bees to come at all.
There is no correlation between those two statements, whatsoever. You are aware that RoundUp is an herbicide, not an insecticide, aren't you?
Last year, after a decade-long battle, the EPA finally admitted that Roundup had a devastating effect on the bee population and may be a major contributor to Colony Collapse. But I'm sure all that data's gone now.
Uhhh...not to cast aspersions, but I am having trouble finding reference to this.
This took about two seconds to find with a google search for roundup bees: http://www.motherjones.com/food/2016/01/epa-finds-major-pesticide-toxic-bees/
It's Mother Jones, I know, but the relevant quotes are from linked EPA publications. Which have in fact been taken down, heh.
That's what I found when I googled, but that's not referring to roundup. It's referring to neonicotinoids, which are insecticides that attack the central nervous system. Wiki has an uncited comment saying you can spray it on plants to help them grow. Round-up is a herbicide that works by inhibiting plant enzymes.
So as far as I can tell, two different beasts. I am trying to find reference to Roundup and bees, but I saw a bunch of websites that had titles like "savethebees.com."
It looks like the EPA is still considering rules to address the neonicotinoids and is asking for public comment: https://www.epa.gov/pesticides/epa-releases-four-neonicotinoid-risk-assessments-public-comment
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OP go live in a stuffy hoa neighbourhood with nosey neighbours. You can lead the association and wander around the neighbourhood leaving notices in everyone's mail boxes about their yards, driveways, laundry hanging etc. You'll feel real big and real good about yourself I'm sure.
I have to second that; why pay weed and feed on a regular basis to fight dandelions to pay for artificially fixed nitrogen to feed a plant that is not eaten (grass) and kill a plant that can be eaten (dandelions greens).
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OP go live in a stuffy hoa neighbourhood with nosey neighbours. You can lead the association and wander around the neighbourhood leaving notices in everyone's mail boxes about their yards, driveways, laundry hanging etc. You'll feel real big and real good about yourself I'm sure.
I have to second that; why pay weed and feed on a regular basis to fight dandelions to pay for artificially fixed nitrogen to feed a plant that is not eaten (grass) and kill a plant that can be eaten (dandelions greens).
Does anybody that lives in a suburb actually harvest the dandelions in their front yard to eat?
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We used to feed them to our rabbits
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My other friend has tried to do the same, but her nextdoor neighbor uses RoundUp, and she cannot get the bees to come at all.
There is no correlation between those two statements, whatsoever. You are aware that RoundUp is an herbicide, not an insecticide, aren't you?
Last year, after a decade-long battle, the EPA finally admitted that Roundup had a devastating effect on the bee population and may be a major contributor to Colony Collapse. But I'm sure all that data's gone now.
Uhhh...not to cast aspersions, but I am having trouble finding reference to this.
This took about two seconds to find with a google search for roundup bees: http://www.motherjones.com/food/2016/01/epa-finds-major-pesticide-toxic-bees/
It's Mother Jones, I know, but the relevant quotes are from linked EPA publications. Which have in fact been taken down, heh.
That's what I found when I googled, but that's not referring to roundup. It's referring to neonicotinoids, which are insecticides that attack the central nervous system. Wiki has an uncited comment saying you can spray it on plants to help them grow. Round-up is a herbicide that works by inhibiting plant enzymes.
So as far as I can tell, two different beasts. I am trying to find reference to Roundup and bees, but I saw a bunch of websites that had titles like "savethebees.com."
It looks like the EPA is still considering rules to address the neonicotinoids and is asking for public comment: https://www.epa.gov/pesticides/epa-releases-four-neonicotinoid-risk-assessments-public-comment
^This. Thank you, Beta Guy. We're all clear here that the word "RoundUp" is not synonymous with "pesticide" aren't we? I do not use neonics in my garden or orchard precisely because of their connection to CCD, but I have no qualms about using RoundUp. It's about as harmless as a pesticide can be.
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^This. Thank you, Beta Guy. We're all clear here that the word "RoundUp" is not synonymous with "pesticide" aren't we? I do not use neonics in my garden or orchard precisely because of their connection to CCD, but I have no qualms about using RoundUp. It's about as harmless as a pesticide can be.
I'm not sure I would use the word harmless describing any chemicals I don't need to put into the environment. Additionally, besides having to shell out cash for said chemical IMHO Monsanto is a pretty fucking evil company.
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Glyphosate has had a lot more debate, but there have been a couple of studies linking it to bee cognitive decline as well. I think people are more worried about that one for the back-and-forth conversation we've seen about cancer risks lately. I agree that "harmless" is probably overstating it, though I can see why there's been much more waffling about regulating it.
I thought the cancer attributes to,Roundup had more to do with additives in the mix than the active ingrediant with is glyphosate. no?
I use Roundup when I need to, mainly on brick sidewalks. although I am planning to mve a section of iris to a clean bed and then Roundup the hell on a section of flower bed that has a nasty Johnsoj grass infestation.
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Vinegar makes a pretty good weed killer. I hear salted vinegar makes for a good "Kill the weeds and DO NOT GROW BACK" type spray material.
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Vinegar makes a pretty good weed killer. I hear salted vinegar makes for a good "Kill the weeds and DO NOT GROW BACK" type spray material.
There isnt any compound that may kill weeds forever that I would wish to use on any ground near me.
I figured someone would come on to talk about the vinegar, salt, hot water, etc fix. That is nice, but I have brick sidewalks at multiple properties and wont be using that stuff. Pouring salt into to the ground for years probably isn't a good idea, but I havent researched real consequences. OTOH, a community garden participant here uses the vinegar and salt combo on the patio there, and everyone thinks that is fine. So who knows.
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Vinegar kills leaves but not roots. When I used 20% acetic acid (yes, 20%, cooking vinegar is 5% or 6%) on my poison ivy it killed the leaves. I got lots of new plants from the roots.
Salt affects water and nutrient uptake by roots until it leaches out. Air-borne salt kills foliage. Salt-tolerant plants get planted along highways because of this.
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^This. Thank you, Beta Guy. We're all clear here that the word "RoundUp" is not synonymous with "pesticide" aren't we? I do not use neonics in my garden or orchard precisely because of their connection to CCD, but I have no qualms about using RoundUp. It's about as harmless as a pesticide can be.
I'm not sure I would use the word harmless describing any chemicals I don't need to put into the environment. Additionally, besides having to shell out cash for said chemical IMHO Monsanto is a pretty fucking evil company.
I disagree with you humble opinion. Monsanto has done far more good for humankind that say, Coca-Cola, yet somehow coke has a spotless reputation for peddling its diabetes-inducing swill, while Monsanto has an "evil" reputation for using litigation to protect patents that improve crop yields while reducing dependence on fossil fuel inputs, insecticides, and fungicides. That being said, Monsanto doesn't get any of my money when I buy RoundUp, because glyphosate has been off-patent for 20 years and I buy a cheap generic version that is probably manufactured in some sub-minimum-wage manufacturing wasteland in Mumbai. Frankly, it would do more good if I spent extra to buy it from Monsanto, because they'd use the profits to re-invest in agricultural technologies that actually have a chance at feeding the world's population when it hits 15 billion while the global average temperature climbs another 4*C.
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Does anybody that lives in a suburb actually harvest the dandelions in their front yard to eat?
*Raises hand*
Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "suburb". I live in the city, but in the 1910s when my house was built, my neighborhood was a "streetcar suburb": mostly single-family homes with moderately-sized yards. And I don't actually like dandelion greens, but my husband and children will eat them right from the ground, and I'm fine with them if there's enough other greens and salad dressing.