Author Topic: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.  (Read 11177 times)

madgeylou

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #150 on: November 03, 2017, 11:12:23 AM »
"I Will Always Love You" is about breaking up. Do not have it as the first dance at your wedding.

hahahaha YES! One of my friends had Al Green's "Let's Stay Together" as their first song and I felt similarly. I mean, great song, but it's not exactly the beginning of our lives together message, is it?

Ha -- that was our first song, too. But I thought it made perfect sense. (We are/were older and on our second marriage, also...)

:D That's hilarious! Our song was "Rock With You" by Michael Jackson, which is objectively (lol) the best song ever.

Kris

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #151 on: November 03, 2017, 11:12:59 AM »
"I Will Always Love You" is about breaking up. Do not have it as the first dance at your wedding.

hahahaha YES! One of my friends had Al Green's "Let's Stay Together" as their first song and I felt similarly. I mean, great song, but it's not exactly the beginning of our lives together message, is it?

Ha -- that was our first song, too. But I thought it made perfect sense. (We are/were older and on our second marriage, also...)

:D That's hilarious! Our song was "Rock With You" by Michael Jackson, which is objectively (lol) the best song ever.

Nice!
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RidetheRain

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #152 on: November 03, 2017, 11:18:32 AM »
I work in IT.  When I ask if you've tried turning it off and on again, that's a real question.  Please give a real answer.
A. Is it plugged in?
B. At both ends?

Were you at my house?

I legitimately did this. I spent the weekend without internet, and when I finally caved and rang support they asked me to unplug the cable. I got under my desk and ... it already was.

I didn't tell him, waited until he gave me the rest of the instructions and pulled the "hey, look at that, it works now!" line.

So embarrassed. I must have kicked it out with my foot.

I'm going to come down on the other side of this one. I'm also in IT (tier 3 tech support and everything). If I tell you I turned off the machine and waited and turned it back on again. BELIEVE ME. Sweet Jesus, why would I lie about that? Most of the time when I break down and call support the first thing they ask is if I turned it off and on - I say yes - and then proceed to ask me to do it again.

Side note for other people: Don't lie, I guess? It's kind of a weird thing to decide to lie about, yeah? It really is the solution to most of the problems you are going to encounter.

I think people lie because they're embarrassed. For the non-tech-savvy, there's a certain amount of anxiety that goes into these events. When something doesn't work, and you don't have a clue why and are afraid of potential consequences, you freak out and maybe aren't thinking the most clearly. Then you have to face talking to an IT person and you are already feeling a little defensive about looking like an idiot. (I'm not entirely tech-non-savvy, but I definitely see this effect on people, as well as on myself, occasionally.) And then of course, when they ask you the "did you turn it off and then back on again" question, and you realize how dumb that sounds -- especially if you DIDN'T -- some people cringe with embarrassment and lie reflexively.

God, this reminds me of one of the worst cases of computer-induced anxiety dumbness I've witnessed.

Back in the day (and by "in the day", I mean the mid-1990s), I was in grad school. In our department, there was a room with four computers where people could go and write their masters theses and dissertations without having to deal with an undergrad computer lab. One of the people in my program was a woman who was probably ten years older than I was, and not from the US. She clearly was not from a culture that was very used to computers, and she had very little idea how they worked and a lot of anxiety around them. She was writing her dissertation around the time I was writing my master's thesis.

This woman somehow decided that I was the person who knew all about computers, so she'd come to me with any problems she had. Well, a lot of the time, she'd have done something kind of boneheaded, like hit "cut" instead of "copy" and then freak out when an entire paragraph or page would "disappear." Unfortunately, when anything like that would occur, she would immediately determine that the computer had "a virus" and shut it off. And then come find me.

I cannot tell you how many times I told her not to do that. I couldn't possibly tell you how many times she lost paragraphs, pages, or probably entire chapters because this was before computers kind of automatically saved everything for you. And all because of her anxiety.

I totally get the anxiety. It's a machine that works basically by magic. Trust me, I know a lot about how computers work and it is absolutely black magic. Everyone does stupid/ignorant/whatever things. I once (like two days ago) didn't look at my ports properly and tried to put a USB in the ethernet port. Then went and got pliers to fix it when it didn't fit. Luckily, I noticed before I did real damage, but it was really, really close. I place no blame on people that have trouble and the computer ends up broken.

What I don't get is calling someone for help and then lying to them. They are just trying to get an idea of what the problem is and lying makes their job harder and your phone call last longer. If the person is being accusatory then they're a dick and you can lie as required, but generally, they are asking because it's on a list of stuff they have to ask you and they follow the script to help pick the most likely solutions. The checklist usually looks like:

1. Is the problem solved with a feature we have? If yes then walk through the feature.
2. Is the problem user error? Ask what they were doing
3. Is the problem black magic? Find out when they last turned off the computer to find out
4. Send to manager

If you say you already turned off the computer and you didn't then the person might rule out black magic!

My real point is if a support person is going to ignore your answer to a question then they shouldn't ask the question in the first place.
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Kris

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #153 on: November 03, 2017, 11:49:14 AM »
I work in IT.  When I ask if you've tried turning it off and on again, that's a real question.  Please give a real answer.
A. Is it plugged in?
B. At both ends?

Were you at my house?

I legitimately did this. I spent the weekend without internet, and when I finally caved and rang support they asked me to unplug the cable. I got under my desk and ... it already was.

I didn't tell him, waited until he gave me the rest of the instructions and pulled the "hey, look at that, it works now!" line.

So embarrassed. I must have kicked it out with my foot.

I'm going to come down on the other side of this one. I'm also in IT (tier 3 tech support and everything). If I tell you I turned off the machine and waited and turned it back on again. BELIEVE ME. Sweet Jesus, why would I lie about that? Most of the time when I break down and call support the first thing they ask is if I turned it off and on - I say yes - and then proceed to ask me to do it again.

Side note for other people: Don't lie, I guess? It's kind of a weird thing to decide to lie about, yeah? It really is the solution to most of the problems you are going to encounter.

I think people lie because they're embarrassed. For the non-tech-savvy, there's a certain amount of anxiety that goes into these events. When something doesn't work, and you don't have a clue why and are afraid of potential consequences, you freak out and maybe aren't thinking the most clearly. Then you have to face talking to an IT person and you are already feeling a little defensive about looking like an idiot. (I'm not entirely tech-non-savvy, but I definitely see this effect on people, as well as on myself, occasionally.) And then of course, when they ask you the "did you turn it off and then back on again" question, and you realize how dumb that sounds -- especially if you DIDN'T -- some people cringe with embarrassment and lie reflexively.

God, this reminds me of one of the worst cases of computer-induced anxiety dumbness I've witnessed.

Back in the day (and by "in the day", I mean the mid-1990s), I was in grad school. In our department, there was a room with four computers where people could go and write their masters theses and dissertations without having to deal with an undergrad computer lab. One of the people in my program was a woman who was probably ten years older than I was, and not from the US. She clearly was not from a culture that was very used to computers, and she had very little idea how they worked and a lot of anxiety around them. She was writing her dissertation around the time I was writing my master's thesis.

This woman somehow decided that I was the person who knew all about computers, so she'd come to me with any problems she had. Well, a lot of the time, she'd have done something kind of boneheaded, like hit "cut" instead of "copy" and then freak out when an entire paragraph or page would "disappear." Unfortunately, when anything like that would occur, she would immediately determine that the computer had "a virus" and shut it off. And then come find me.

I cannot tell you how many times I told her not to do that. I couldn't possibly tell you how many times she lost paragraphs, pages, or probably entire chapters because this was before computers kind of automatically saved everything for you. And all because of her anxiety.

I totally get the anxiety. It's a machine that works basically by magic. Trust me, I know a lot about how computers work and it is absolutely black magic. Everyone does stupid/ignorant/whatever things. I once (like two days ago) didn't look at my ports properly and tried to put a USB in the ethernet port. Then went and got pliers to fix it when it didn't fit. Luckily, I noticed before I did real damage, but it was really, really close. I place no blame on people that have trouble and the computer ends up broken.

What I don't get is calling someone for help and then lying to them. They are just trying to get an idea of what the problem is and lying makes their job harder and your phone call last longer. If the person is being accusatory then they're a dick and you can lie as required, but generally, they are asking because it's on a list of stuff they have to ask you and they follow the script to help pick the most likely solutions. The checklist usually looks like:

1. Is the problem solved with a feature we have? If yes then walk through the feature.
2. Is the problem user error? Ask what they were doing
3. Is the problem black magic? Find out when they last turned off the computer to find out
4. Send to manager

If you say you already turned off the computer and you didn't then the person might rule out black magic!

My real point is if a support person is going to ignore your answer to a question then they shouldn't ask the question in the first place.

LOL -- I can't believe that I read your comment completely wrongly and wrote out that big response.

What I *thought* you had written (I think I thought you were Ketchup) was that you were perplexed that someone would lie to an IT person about whether they've turned it off and on again, to avoid looking stupid. Which is totally a thing. I have seen it more than once -- and actually been tempted to do it myself.

It took me a ridiculously long time to really interiorize that rebooting is the first thing you should try if something isn't working. My life has been so much easier since I have. (Duh.)

So yeah -- that's why I shared the story about my grad school friend. And also because I hadn't thought of it in years, and it illustrated so well the anxiety laypersons can feel about computers.

Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

RidetheRain

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #154 on: November 03, 2017, 12:02:50 PM »
I work in IT.  When I ask if you've tried turning it off and on again, that's a real question.  Please give a real answer.
A. Is it plugged in?
B. At both ends?

Were you at my house?

I legitimately did this. I spent the weekend without internet, and when I finally caved and rang support they asked me to unplug the cable. I got under my desk and ... it already was.

I didn't tell him, waited until he gave me the rest of the instructions and pulled the "hey, look at that, it works now!" line.

So embarrassed. I must have kicked it out with my foot.

I'm going to come down on the other side of this one. I'm also in IT (tier 3 tech support and everything). If I tell you I turned off the machine and waited and turned it back on again. BELIEVE ME. Sweet Jesus, why would I lie about that? Most of the time when I break down and call support the first thing they ask is if I turned it off and on - I say yes - and then proceed to ask me to do it again.

Side note for other people: Don't lie, I guess? It's kind of a weird thing to decide to lie about, yeah? It really is the solution to most of the problems you are going to encounter.

I think people lie because they're embarrassed. For the non-tech-savvy, there's a certain amount of anxiety that goes into these events. When something doesn't work, and you don't have a clue why and are afraid of potential consequences, you freak out and maybe aren't thinking the most clearly. Then you have to face talking to an IT person and you are already feeling a little defensive about looking like an idiot. (I'm not entirely tech-non-savvy, but I definitely see this effect on people, as well as on myself, occasionally.) And then of course, when they ask you the "did you turn it off and then back on again" question, and you realize how dumb that sounds -- especially if you DIDN'T -- some people cringe with embarrassment and lie reflexively.

God, this reminds me of one of the worst cases of computer-induced anxiety dumbness I've witnessed.

Back in the day (and by "in the day", I mean the mid-1990s), I was in grad school. In our department, there was a room with four computers where people could go and write their masters theses and dissertations without having to deal with an undergrad computer lab. One of the people in my program was a woman who was probably ten years older than I was, and not from the US. She clearly was not from a culture that was very used to computers, and she had very little idea how they worked and a lot of anxiety around them. She was writing her dissertation around the time I was writing my master's thesis.

This woman somehow decided that I was the person who knew all about computers, so she'd come to me with any problems she had. Well, a lot of the time, she'd have done something kind of boneheaded, like hit "cut" instead of "copy" and then freak out when an entire paragraph or page would "disappear." Unfortunately, when anything like that would occur, she would immediately determine that the computer had "a virus" and shut it off. And then come find me.

I cannot tell you how many times I told her not to do that. I couldn't possibly tell you how many times she lost paragraphs, pages, or probably entire chapters because this was before computers kind of automatically saved everything for you. And all because of her anxiety.

I totally get the anxiety. It's a machine that works basically by magic. Trust me, I know a lot about how computers work and it is absolutely black magic. Everyone does stupid/ignorant/whatever things. I once (like two days ago) didn't look at my ports properly and tried to put a USB in the ethernet port. Then went and got pliers to fix it when it didn't fit. Luckily, I noticed before I did real damage, but it was really, really close. I place no blame on people that have trouble and the computer ends up broken.

What I don't get is calling someone for help and then lying to them. They are just trying to get an idea of what the problem is and lying makes their job harder and your phone call last longer. If the person is being accusatory then they're a dick and you can lie as required, but generally, they are asking because it's on a list of stuff they have to ask you and they follow the script to help pick the most likely solutions. The checklist usually looks like:

1. Is the problem solved with a feature we have? If yes then walk through the feature.
2. Is the problem user error? Ask what they were doing
3. Is the problem black magic? Find out when they last turned off the computer to find out
4. Send to manager

If you say you already turned off the computer and you didn't then the person might rule out black magic!

My real point is if a support person is going to ignore your answer to a question then they shouldn't ask the question in the first place.

LOL -- I can't believe that I read your comment completely wrongly and wrote out that big response.

What I *thought* you had written (I think I thought you were Ketchup) was that you were perplexed that someone would lie to an IT person about whether they've turned it off and on again, to avoid looking stupid. Which is totally a thing. I have seen it more than once -- and actually been tempted to do it myself.

It took me a ridiculously long time to really interiorize that rebooting is the first thing you should try if something isn't working. My life has been so much easier since I have. (Duh.)

So yeah -- that's why I shared the story about my grad school friend. And also because I hadn't thought of it in years, and it illustrated so well the anxiety laypersons can feel about computers.

I get it :) To this day I'm surprised when turning it off and on fixes things. I have no idea why I'm surprised as it usually works.
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Uturn

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #155 on: November 03, 2017, 12:40:14 PM »
Rebooting fixes things mostly because it flushes the memory and clears hung processes that didn't shut down correctly.  Pretty much any modern electronic item will be happier if rebooted regularly. 
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iowajes

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #156 on: November 03, 2017, 01:01:19 PM »
Non computer misconception:

Having a baby fixes the pain associated with pregnancy loss. 

Travis

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #157 on: November 03, 2017, 01:36:32 PM »
Rebooting fixes things mostly because it flushes the memory and clears hung processes that didn't shut down correctly.  Pretty much any modern electronic item will be happier if rebooted regularly.

I still find it amazing how self-healing modern electronics are in this regard.  I had a smartphone which completely bricked a few months ago no matter what I did to it. I put in on the shelf for six months.  I recharged it last month and power cycled it a couple times and now it works just fine.

I used to tease my boss that I conducted an "O-N, O-F-F procedure on the network when it stopped working.
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AlanStache

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #158 on: November 03, 2017, 01:54:50 PM »
I still find it amazing how self-healing modern electronics are in this regard.  I had a smartphone which completely bricked a few months ago no matter what I did to it. I put in on the shelf for six months.  I recharged it last month and power cycled it a couple times and now it works just fine.
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marielle

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #159 on: November 03, 2017, 02:01:11 PM »
Rebooting fixes things mostly because it flushes the memory and clears hung processes that didn't shut down correctly.  Pretty much any modern electronic item will be happier if rebooted regularly.

I still find it amazing how self-healing modern electronics are in this regard.  I had a smartphone which completely bricked a few months ago no matter what I did to it. I put in on the shelf for six months.  I recharged it last month and power cycled it a couple times and now it works just fine.

I used to tease my boss that I conducted an "O-N, O-F-F procedure on the network when it stopped working.

Can confirm, had this happen on my car. My passenger window wouldn't roll down, figured it's not that important so ignored it...a while later it works again and has ever since. Also I'm like 95% sure my cruise control didn't work when I first got the car, but it started working again.

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #160 on: November 03, 2017, 03:26:39 PM »
Not exactly a mis-conception but rather a lack of conception that came up with a friend today.

We need to conserve Helium because it's a legitimately limited and also important resource (unless we eventually learn to harvest it from space, I guess, then go to town! But that probably won't happen in our lifetimes.) https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/mar/18/helium-party-balloons-squandered

Right now the US has a huge stockpile of it and sells it super cheap, so capturing it is very low priority for most places. Many natural gas wells contain helium, but right now it's not even worth them capturing/isolating it, so they don't. The same goes for capturing it after use. Some labs do re-capture it, but right now it's not really worth doing for the most part.

The reality is, we're wasting so much of it because it is so cheap and available. Some estimates put world reserves at over 100 years, so I'm not too worried about it. There are machines out there that do need helium, but whether it costs them $2 or $20 to fill it up probably isn't a huge deal, as they are usually pretty high end machines doing expensive things.

Cold fusion would solve any helium shortage issues. 

ketchup

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #161 on: November 03, 2017, 09:05:45 PM »
Rebooting fixes things mostly because it flushes the memory and clears hung processes that didn't shut down correctly.  Pretty much any modern electronic item will be happier if rebooted regularly.

I still find it amazing how self-healing modern electronics are in this regard.  I had a smartphone which completely bricked a few months ago no matter what I did to it. I put in on the shelf for six months.  I recharged it last month and power cycled it a couple times and now it works just fine.

I used to tease my boss that I conducted an "O-N, O-F-F procedure on the network when it stopped working.
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shelivesthedream

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #162 on: November 04, 2017, 05:29:57 AM »
I can't believe I did not put this on my initial post.

D-Day was not the turning point of World War 2. Please stop teaching that in Schools.

How come? I think that's a reasonable thing to teach to schoolchildren. Not to older ones, perhaps, or to university students who ought to be able to discuss the various major events during the war and their consequences, but we did WW2 when I was ten and then again when I was 13. I think "and that's when the Allies landed in Normandy and started pushing the Nazis out of France" could reasonably be described as a turning point for "us".

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #163 on: November 04, 2017, 06:12:19 AM »
Bin Laden did not mastermind 9/11
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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #164 on: November 04, 2017, 10:05:04 AM »
I can't believe I did not put this on my initial post.

D-Day was not the turning point of World War 2. Please stop teaching that in Schools.

How come? I think that's a reasonable thing to teach to schoolchildren. Not to older ones, perhaps, or to university students who ought to be able to discuss the various major events during the war and their consequences, but we did WW2 when I was ten and then again when I was 13. I think "and that's when the Allies landed in Normandy and started pushing the Nazis out of France" could reasonably be described as a turning point for "us".

Our public school education of WWII is very US/Anglo-centric.  Rimu said "D-Day not a turning point of WW2." The US did almost nothing critical in Europe as far as fighting goes until we landed in Italy.  What is very important to mention and never is on the other hand is that the Red Army would have had to walk to Berlin if it wasn't for our industrial might.  If we just stuck to sending them trucks, fuel, radios, and food they could have won the war all on their own which is why D-Day wasn't a turning point in the grand scheme of things.  It certainly shortened the war, but the outcome was not in doubt by that point.
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BlueHouse

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #165 on: November 04, 2017, 05:56:53 PM »
Rebooting fixes things mostly because it flushes the memory and clears hung processes that didn't shut down correctly.  Pretty much any modern electronic item will be happier if rebooted regularly.

I still find it amazing how self-healing modern electronics are in this regard.  I had a smartphone which completely bricked a few months ago no matter what I did to it. I put in on the shelf for six months.  I recharged it last month and power cycled it a couple times and now it works just fine.

I used to tease my boss that I conducted an "O-N, O-F-F procedure on the network when it stopped working.

Can confirm, had this happen on my car. My passenger window wouldn't roll down, figured it's not that important so ignored it...a while later it works again and has ever since. Also I'm like 95% sure my cruise control didn't work when I first got the car, but it started working again.
I worked for a software company supporting a very temperamental and misunderstood software system.  When all else failed and the clock turned late, I usually had to say to my customers:  Let's go home, come back in the morning, and I bet it will work then.  This would be after rebooting multiple times, and working out any database issues that had been messed up.  Customers always thought I was just tired and giving up.  But it never failed to just "magically work" the next morning.  I had been told that sometimes network connections take longer to reset, and I guess that's plausible, but I never knew for sure
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DoubleDown

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #166 on: November 05, 2017, 10:24:27 AM »
Bin Laden did not mastermind 9/11

Huh, what??? Are you talking about being the head of the organization vs. doing the actual logistical planning?

But if the answer is some ridiculous conspiracy theory, then please forget I ever asked.
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Jane Dough

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #167 on: November 05, 2017, 07:16:09 PM »
We live in a tropical zone,haven't turned the heater on in about 4 years. When people leave a door open around here, a typical reaction is to say "shut the door, you're letting all the cold air out!"
Actually, you are really letting the hot air in. I would like to thank the inventor of the air conditioner.

GuitarStv

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #168 on: November 06, 2017, 06:48:08 AM »
We live in a tropical zone,haven't turned the heater on in about 4 years. When people leave a door open around here, a typical reaction is to say "shut the door, you're letting all the cold air out!"
Actually, you are really letting the hot air in. I would like to thank the inventor of the air conditioner.

Opening the door facilitates an exchange of interior and exterior air.  You are both letting the cold air out, and letting the warm air in.  (Unless maybe your home operates at some sort of negative pressure.)  You can sometimes even see this effect when opening a door to very cold air - a freezer will visibly leak cool cloudy air down to your feet.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 10:05:42 AM by GuitarStv »

BDWW

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #169 on: November 06, 2017, 09:56:53 AM »
We live in a tropical zone,haven't turned the heater on in about 4 years. When people leave a door open around here, a typical reaction is to say "shut the door, you're letting all the cold air out!"
Actually, you are really letting the hot air in. I would like to thank the inventor of the air conditioner.

Cold air is denser then warm air, you are letting the cold out.  Imagine your house is filled with water, and you open a door. The water(cold air) leaks out and warm air comes in to replace it. The effect of gravity on the denser air is the instigation.

They are "letting all the cold air out."

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #170 on: November 08, 2017, 08:22:29 AM »
I can't believe I did not put this on my initial post.

D-Day was not the turning point of World War 2. Please stop teaching that in Schools.

How come? I think that's a reasonable thing to teach to schoolchildren. Not to older ones, perhaps, or to university students who ought to be able to discuss the various major events during the war and their consequences, but we did WW2 when I was ten and then again when I was 13. I think "and that's when the Allies landed in Normandy and started pushing the Nazis out of France" could reasonably be described as a turning point for "us".

Our public school education of WWII is very US/Anglo-centric.  Rimu said "D-Day not a turning point of WW2." The US did almost nothing critical in Europe as far as fighting goes until we landed in Italy.  What is very important to mention and never is on the other hand is that the Red Army would have had to walk to Berlin if it wasn't for our industrial might.  If we just stuck to sending them trucks, fuel, radios, and food they could have won the war all on their own which is why D-Day wasn't a turning point in the grand scheme of things.  It certainly shortened the war, but the outcome was not in doubt by that point.

North Africa and Italy get entirely no mention in typical teachings to little kids, from what I remember. It's just lots of carpet bombing and then D-Day, and then nuke Japan.

Re: USSR and lend-lease. I see this argued a lot. But from what I understand from the experts, Operations Uranus and Saturn (Battle of Stalingrad) were launched without any major LL aid from the Allies. The battle of Moscow was basically all USSR. The Soviet Union likely would've pushed the Germans out of their territory even with zero LL aid.

Now they probably could not have conquered Germany like they did with LL aid. Kursk was critical in that it basically destroyed all German offensive armor and put them on the defensive for the rest of the war. Kursk would've been different without LL and Allies cracking German codes. But even a different outcome wouldn't have allowed Germany to conquer the USSR.

Some other things re: WWII that kinda irk me:
-The Germans could've just won if they had done "X." No, the Germans were basically screwed.
-Japan could've won if they had done "X." Japan was even more screwed than Germany. It's a miracle they did as well as they did.
-The Germans were really good at fighting. Like, soldier for soldier, yeah, but their operational and strategic doctrines were shit.
-Germans could've won the Battle of the Atlantic. Nahhh. They were screwed there, too. We could build ships faster than they could sink them, except in a few months of the battle.
-The French and British never stood a chance against awesome German blitzkrieg. No, the French and British just really screwed the pooch and the Germans got a bit of luck.
-Polish cavalry charged tanks. This did not happen.

GuitarStv

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #171 on: November 08, 2017, 09:00:05 AM »
-The Germans could've just won if they had done "X." No, the Germans were basically screwed.

It's impossible to know alternate future outcomes.  I think that would have seen a very different WWII if Germany hadn't invaded Russia and Japan hadn't bombed Pearl Harbour.  Without the Germans fighting on the Russian front (and the hordes of Russian troops) and without significant US involvement, the allies would have been in quite a different position.



-Polish cavalry charged tanks. This did not happen.

They not only charged armored vehicles with mounted cavalry, but they forced the Germans into short retreat.  The Polish didn't charge with lances, they had rifles and the charge wasn't against tanks . . .  but it did absolutely happen and is well documented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_at_Krojanty
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 09:02:19 AM by GuitarStv »

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #172 on: November 08, 2017, 09:33:03 AM »
So when I said they stood no chance, I mean they stood no chance once the major belligerents had entered.
But even without that, Stalin and Hitler were guaranteed to go to war. The entire Nazi ideology involved depopulating Eastern Europe to create space for Germany. Stalin was an aggressive expansionist who had already swallowed up all of the Baltic states, Ukraine, Poland, and parts of Finland. The two were going to fight for sure. Though they probably would just fight to a stalemate without outside intervention.

Britain and the US against Germany is just a longer war. You can't fortify the entire continent's coast-line and the UK and the US have total naval superiority (and eventually will have total air superiority and nukes along with it).

Japan is never going to conquer China, and they are never going to leave China. And Stalin being Stalin, the USSR is going to attack Japan as soon as it is convenient, and Japan cannot win against the USSR.

So I think there's basically no scenario where the Axis powers rule the Earth.


Re: Poland. They charged an infantry battalion and retreated when armored cars came. They did not try to lance-a-lot a Panzer division, which is what most people think of, and what were told back in middle school.
Wiki says most Polish charges were successful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_(warfare)#Cavalry_charges
Quote
The Polish cavalry, in spite of being primarily trained to operate as rapid infantry and being better armed than regular Polish infantry (more anti—tank weapons and armored vehicles per capita) did execute up to 15 cavalry charges during the Invasion of Poland. Majority of the charges were successful and none was meant as a charge against armored vehicles.

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #173 on: November 08, 2017, 10:11:49 AM »

North Africa and Italy get entirely no mention in typical teachings to little kids, from what I remember. It's just lots of carpet bombing and then D-Day, and then nuke Japan.

Re: USSR and lend-lease. I see this argued a lot. But from what I understand from the experts, Operations Uranus and Saturn (Battle of Stalingrad) were launched without any major LL aid from the Allies. The battle of Moscow was basically all USSR. The Soviet Union likely would've pushed the Germans out of their territory even with zero LL aid.

The Red Army got to Stalingrad with American trucks, food, and fuel.  They basically got everywhere in the war thanks to General Motors.  Stalingrad was largely aided by the proximity of the major north-south rail line along the Volga, but every offensive after that was due to our supply help.  By the end of the war something like 60% of their vehicle fleet was American-made while they rebuilt their factories from scratch in the Urals.  With Ukraine and western Russia occupied, there was a massive food shortage. The Red Army would have starved to death in late 1942 if not for our help.  This requirement continued to the end of the war.

Quote
Now they probably could not have conquered Germany like they did with LL aid. Kursk was critical in that it basically destroyed all German offensive armor and put them on the defensive for the rest of the war. Kursk would've been different without LL and Allies cracking German codes. But even a different outcome wouldn't have allowed Germany to conquer the USSR.

Kursk was Germany's last ditch attempt at an offensive in the East.  If Hitler had held onto those tanks in a defensive role he could have dragged out the war another 6 months, but the were always going to be retreating until the end.

Quote
Some other things re: WWII that kinda irk me:
-The Germans could've just won if they had done "X." No, the Germans were basically screwed.
-Japan could've won if they had done "X." Japan was even more screwed than Germany. It's a miracle they did as well as they did.
-The Germans were really good at fighting. Like, soldier for soldier, yeah, but their operational and strategic doctrines were shit.

2 out of 3. German operational doctrine was in a class by itself which is why it did so well against numerically superior opponents for as long as it did.  Even in retreat they inflicted massive loses on the Soviets.  Nearly every Soviet offensive was met with counterattacks on their flanks which incurred huge losses, but they had the manpower to keep pushing forward.  The German military had no appreciation for logistics which is where they fell apart strategically.  The German General Staff education system took the best and brightest of their officer corps and made them all fighters. The second-rate officers became logisticians so not only were the infantry officers ignorant of logistics, their logisticians weren't very good.  This failing went all the way back to Von Schlieffen and the war plan that led to WWI.  That campaign was never going to work because Von Schlieffen had no clue how his men and horses would eat, sleep, or communicate.  Wash and repeat for WWII.  Patton and Rommel both had to learn the hard way what it took to provide their tanks with fuel and felt outrunning their own supplies was somebody else's problem.  Japan was in the same boat (pun intended).  They were an island nation entirely dependent on imports with a pitifully small merchant marine fleet.  Once they capture those island chains they couldn't support them.  Our subs sank over half of their shipping fleet and entire island garrisons were isolated and bypassed. Yamamoto supposedly said something like "I can guarantee six months of victory, but if you don't get a negotiated peace after that I can't help you."

In the late 1970s and 1980s when the imprisoned WWII-era German Generals were paroled or their sentences ended we hired many of them as consultants to rewrite our doctrine which led to "Air-Land Battle." In a nutshell we planned a mobile rather than static defense of western Europe.  It also led to an offensive maneuver doctrine when married with American logistics gave us the Desert Storm ground campaign.

Quote
-Germans could've won the Battle of the Atlantic. Nahhh. They were screwed there, too. We could build ships faster than they could sink them, except in a few months of the battle.
Very true.  Germany lacked good radar, air-sea coordination, and an industrial capacity to build enough subs and aircraft.  They wasted good steel and manpower building battleships which were promptly sunk. The British cracking all of their codes was also a decisive edge.

Quote
-The French and British never stood a chance against awesome German blitzkrieg. No, the French and British just really screwed the pooch and the Germans got a bit of luck.
They stood a chance, but French military and political doctrine seceded all initiative to Germany.  They weren't going to make the first move for several more months until their entire army was mobilized (75% of their strength was part-time Reserves).  Belgian neutrality slowed them down too because they couldn't occupy pre-planned defensive positions.  When it came time for the showdown, the Germans proved to be much better at exercising local initiative and making decisions much faster than the French.

Quote
-Polish cavalry charged tanks. This did not happen.

Meh. Debatable.  They threw horses at a mechanized army even if the attack started against dismounted infantry.  It was the first large-scale cavalry charge in a century for good reason.
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A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #174 on: November 08, 2017, 03:35:54 PM »
IMO, The relevant expert on the Eastern Theater is Glantz, and he says Lend-Lease was not needed to end the war. He goes into pretty extensive detail about what happened, but the basic gist is that the vast majority of LL aid was loaded into 43 and 44. Operation Uranus was the end of 1942, when the USSR was getting a bunch of LL aid, but not the massive aid of 43. Even had the Germans won at Stalingrad, it wouldn't matter, because Germany just did not have the resources to achieve its Case Blue objectives.

His take is that the war was basically over in fall 1941, when the Soviets had massively damaged the German army and made the Germans unable to take Moscow. His contention is that even if the Germans had taken Moscow, the USSR still would have won, because the USSR still had all its resources East of Siberia. (I think that claim is too strong)

The USSR had already stopped the Germans in Dec 1941. By the time the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor, the Soviets had massively counter-attacked and Hitler was ordering a defense along the whole line (which the Germans would ignore about a week later).

The USSR had a good deal of strategic initiative over the next several months even without major LL aid. They didn't do too hot, but that's in part because Stalin didn't know what he was doing yet, and the Red Army was in sorry shape.

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #175 on: November 08, 2017, 03:45:24 PM »
The US is dependent on 'foreign oil'.  Hasn't been true for several years.  We are now a net exporter of hydrocarbons.
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spartana

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #176 on: November 08, 2017, 04:05:48 PM »
IMO, The relevant expert on the Eastern Theater is Glantz, and he says Lend-Lease was not needed to end the war. He goes into pretty extensive detail about what happened, but the basic gist is that the vast majority of LL aid was loaded into 43 and 44. Operation Uranus was the end of 1942, when the USSR was getting a bunch of LL aid, but not the massive aid of 43. Even had the Germans won at Stalingrad, it wouldn't matter, because Germany just did not have the resources to achieve its Case Blue objectives.

His take is that the war was basically over in fall 1941, when the Soviets had massively damaged the German army and made the Germans unable to take Moscow. His contention is that even if the Germans had taken Moscow, the USSR still would have won, because the USSR still had all its resources East of Siberia. (I think that claim is too strong)

The USSR had already stopped the Germans in Dec 1941. By the time the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor, the Soviets had massively counter-attacked and Hitler was ordering a defense along the whole line (which the Germans would ignore about a week later).

The USSR had a good deal of strategic initiative over the next several months even without major LL aid. They didn't do too hot, but that's in part because Stalin didn't know what he was doing yet, and the Red Army was in sorry shape.
Have to say I'm enjoying all the WW11 discussion. My Mom was living in Konigsberg Germany (now Kaliningrad Russia) at the end of WW11 in 1945 (she was 12 or 13) during first the British Allied bombing and then.the Red Army invasion (Battle of Konigsberg).  She always ranted about  WW11 history, as taught in.the USA, was completely wrong. I wont even repeay what her Nazi foster parents thought (her real parents killed). I guess perspective from the other side of the fence will color your view of events.
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Travis

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #177 on: November 08, 2017, 04:13:51 PM »
IMO, The relevant expert on the Eastern Theater is Glantz, and he says Lend-Lease was not needed to end the war. He goes into pretty extensive detail about what happened, but the basic gist is that the vast majority of LL aid was loaded into 43 and 44. Operation Uranus was the end of 1942, when the USSR was getting a bunch of LL aid, but not the massive aid of 43. Even had the Germans won at Stalingrad, it wouldn't matter, because Germany just did not have the resources to achieve its Case Blue objectives.

His take is that the war was basically over in fall 1941, when the Soviets had massively damaged the German army and made the Germans unable to take Moscow. His contention is that even if the Germans had taken Moscow, the USSR still would have won, because the USSR still had all its resources East of Siberia. (I think that claim is too strong)

The USSR had already stopped the Germans in Dec 1941. By the time the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor, the Soviets had massively counter-attacked and Hitler was ordering a defense along the whole line (which the Germans would ignore about a week later).

The USSR had a good deal of strategic initiative over the next several months even without major LL aid. They didn't do too hot, but that's in part because Stalin didn't know what he was doing yet, and the Red Army was in sorry shape.

Generally agree with all.  That's why I added to the discussion that our landing in France was not some game changer.  Even if the Red Army had to walk from Moscow to Berlin, they still had the manpower to do it (10 million dead, wounded, or captured by May '45 and still had 2 million men available just for the capture of Berlin).  Germany only planned on a six month war with the USSR and when it didn't pan out they didn't have winter clothing, fuel stockpiles, or manpower mobilized to replace dead troops or fill the factories (as I said earlier, their Achilles Heal was logistics). 

I'm always finding new reads on the World Wars. My library consists of Hastings, Beevoir, Keegan, and Van Creveld.  I have Glantz's "When Titans Clashed," but I haven't read any of his others. Looking at Amazon he's got quite a number of Eastern Theater books.  I'm almost finished with Hastings' latest book which has quite a bit of detail on how Lend Lease affected the Red Army in his opinion.  I'll see if I can pull the relevant quotes later.
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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #178 on: November 08, 2017, 04:19:08 PM »
IMO, The relevant expert on the Eastern Theater is Glantz, and he says Lend-Lease was not needed to end the war. He goes into pretty extensive detail about what happened, but the basic gist is that the vast majority of LL aid was loaded into 43 and 44. Operation Uranus was the end of 1942, when the USSR was getting a bunch of LL aid, but not the massive aid of 43. Even had the Germans won at Stalingrad, it wouldn't matter, because Germany just did not have the resources to achieve its Case Blue objectives.

His take is that the war was basically over in fall 1941, when the Soviets had massively damaged the German army and made the Germans unable to take Moscow. His contention is that even if the Germans had taken Moscow, the USSR still would have won, because the USSR still had all its resources East of Siberia. (I think that claim is too strong)

The USSR had already stopped the Germans in Dec 1941. By the time the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor, the Soviets had massively counter-attacked and Hitler was ordering a defense along the whole line (which the Germans would ignore about a week later).

The USSR had a good deal of strategic initiative over the next several months even without major LL aid. They didn't do too hot, but that's in part because Stalin didn't know what he was doing yet, and the Red Army was in sorry shape.
Have to say I'm enjoying all the WW11 discussion. My Mom was living in Konigsberg Germany (now Kaliningrad Russia) at the end of WW11 in 1945 (she was 12 or 13) during first the British Allied bombing and then.the Red Army invasion (Battle of Konigsberg).  She always ranted about  WW11 history, as taught in.the USA, was completely wrong. I wont even repeay what her Nazi foster parents thought (her real parents killed). I guess perspective from the other side of the fence will color your view of events.

I have a great uncle (some random cousin's father) who I've only met once, but he had a war bride from Konigsberg.  I can't remember how they met, but somehow after surviving the Red Army rolling through her town (she remembered sheltering some German soldiers in her house) she made it west enough for my uncle to meet her.

I'm glad you're enjoying the discussion.  I was afraid we were starting to foam it up in here.
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Travis

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #179 on: November 08, 2017, 04:31:49 PM »
The US is dependent on 'foreign oil'.  Hasn't been true for several years.  We are now a net exporter of hydrocarbons.

I knew someone about a decade ago who said his job in the Texas and Great Plains oil fields was to drill for oil and put a cap on it for a rainy day.  His perspective was that we bought foreign oil just to use theirs up or move some money around, not because we weren't meeting domestic demand.  I have no idea how true that scenario is, but it's been interesting the last couple decades how OPEC could do whatever it wanted with the price, then out of nowhere we figured out a way to get it out of the ground cheaply and knock the bottom out of the market.
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spartana

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #180 on: November 08, 2017, 04:35:57 PM »
IMO, The relevant expert on the Eastern Theater is Glantz, and he says Lend-Lease was not needed to end the war. He goes into pretty extensive detail about what happened, but the basic gist is that the vast majority of LL aid was loaded into 43 and 44. Operation Uranus was the end of 1942, when the USSR was getting a bunch of LL aid, but not the massive aid of 43. Even had the Germans won at Stalingrad, it wouldn't matter, because Germany just did not have the resources to achieve its Case Blue objectives.

His take is that the war was basically over in fall 1941, when the Soviets had massively damaged the German army and made the Germans unable to take Moscow. His contention is that even if the Germans had taken Moscow, the USSR still would have won, because the USSR still had all its resources East of Siberia. (I think that claim is too strong)

The USSR had already stopped the Germans in Dec 1941. By the time the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor, the Soviets had massively counter-attacked and Hitler was ordering a defense along the whole line (which the Germans would ignore about a week later).

The USSR had a good deal of strategic initiative over the next several months even without major LL aid. They didn't do too hot, but that's in part because Stalin didn't know what he was doing yet, and the Red Army was in sorry shape.
Have to say I'm enjoying all the WW11 discussion. My Mom was living in Konigsberg Germany (now Kaliningrad Russia) at the end of WW11 in 1945 (she was 12 or 13) during first the British Allied bombing and then.the Red Army invasion (Battle of Konigsberg).  She always ranted about  WW11 history, as taught in.the USA, was completely wrong. I wont even repeay what her Nazi foster parents thought (her real parents killed). I guess perspective from the other side of the fence will color your view of events.

I have a great uncle (some random cousin's father) who I've only met once, but he had a war bride from Konigsberg.  I can't remember how they met, but somehow after surviving the Red Army rolling through her town (she remembered sheltering some German soldiers in her house) she made it west enough for my uncle to meet her.

I'm glad you're enjoying the discussion.  I was afraid we were starting to foam it up in here.
A little foamy ;-). My moms house was bombed out and her parents killed so she and a trend about her age walked to the West (yeah alone in winter) to Dachau where she lived in the former concentration camp converted to a refugee camp for a couple of years until she got foster parents. Eventually immigrated to Canada then US as an adult. She was able to go back to visit once the Berlin Wall fell and met many other former Konigsbergers and East Prussians.
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A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #181 on: November 09, 2017, 07:41:20 AM »
What does "foamy" mean in this context? Can't say I have ever used that word used to describe an internet thread...

Apologies for monopolizing thread with WWII talk. We can talk about the Civil War instead! :D

markbike528CBX

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #182 on: November 09, 2017, 08:47:45 AM »
foamy:  having vaporous content, typically way off-topic

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/overheard-at-work/msg1234097/#msg1234097

search for foamy and orange box and black box if you _really_ want to go down that rabbit hole (it's foamy down there).

solon

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #183 on: November 09, 2017, 11:10:59 AM »
See this post for the beginning of the discussion that eventually led to "foamy" being used in off-topic sense.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/overheard-at-work/msg411767/#msg411767

Page 89 of the Overheard at Work thread, from September 2014!

GuitarStv

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #184 on: November 09, 2017, 11:31:19 AM »
See this post for the beginning of the discussion that eventually led to "foamy" being used in off-topic sense.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/overheard-at-work/msg411767/#msg411767

Page 89 of the Overheard at Work thread, from September 2014!

It feels like only yesterday . . .

PizzaSteve

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #185 on: November 09, 2017, 12:16:16 PM »
That dividend paying is required for stocks to be 'good.'  Dividends are not generally necessary (nor even a good idea) for FIRE minded folks.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/larry-swedroe-argues-against-investing-for-dividends/

All posts are opinions of the author subject to independent verification by the reader.  No representations of fact are asserted regarding commercial products or services.

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NoraLenderbee

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #186 on: November 09, 2017, 05:14:46 PM »
See this post for the beginning of the discussion that eventually led to "foamy" being used in off-topic sense.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/overheard-at-work/msg411767/#msg411767

Page 89 of the Overheard at Work thread, from September 2014!

Right here, actually:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/overheard-at-work/msg412005/#msg412005

*bows*

AlanStache

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #187 on: November 09, 2017, 07:04:30 PM »
See this post for the beginning of the discussion that eventually led to "foamy" being used in off-topic sense.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/overheard-at-work/msg411767/#msg411767

Page 89 of the Overheard at Work thread, from September 2014!

Right here, actually:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/overheard-at-work/msg412005/#msg412005

*bows*

And three years on "foam" still feels forced... and rather dumb....

But I did look it up and spray foam was used in wwii airplanes so there is that.

cont.  WWII, I had heard that the Germans looked at the map of Russia and saw lots of squiggly lines running between cities and thought these were roads where they were more accurately muddy cow paths.  It is very hard to transport a tank 1000 miles along a cow path for repair. 
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spartana

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #188 on: November 09, 2017, 08:11:13 PM »
See this post for the beginning of the discussion that eventually led to "foamy" being used in off-topic sense.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/overheard-at-work/msg411767/#msg411767

Page 89 of the Overheard at Work thread, from September 2014!

Right here, actually:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/overheard-at-work/msg412005/#msg412005

*bows*

And three years on "foam" still feels forced... and rather dumb....

But I did look it up and spray foam was used in wwii airplanes so there is that.

cont.  WWII, I had heard that the Germans looked at the map of Russia and saw lots of squiggly lines running between cities and thought these were roads where they were more accurately muddy cow paths.  It is very hard to transport a tank 1000 miles along a cow path for repair.
good for the Zombie Apocalypse too
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J Boogie

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #189 on: November 10, 2017, 07:27:20 AM »
Bin Laden did not mastermind 9/11

Huh, what??? Are you talking about being the head of the organization vs. doing the actual logistical planning?

But if the answer is some ridiculous conspiracy theory, then please forget I ever asked.

I think he's referring to the former.  Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the mastermind so to speak.  But then again much of the info obtained about this came to due to waterboarding, so take it all with a grain of salt. 

Also, steel beams have a melting point of 2500 degrees and jet fuel burning maxes out at 1500 degrees so... ;)

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #190 on: November 10, 2017, 07:52:11 AM »
Slightly OT, but apparently "Loose Change" was on Bin Laden's computer. I...am confused.

spartana

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #191 on: November 10, 2017, 09:01:54 AM »
That people who have retired - especially early retirees - don't spend all their day sitting in a rocker on the front porch waiting  for the Metamucil to kick in and yelling at the young uns (many who are older than the retiree) to get off the damn lawn. No, we sometimes take a break from that to nap ;-).
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shelivesthedream

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #192 on: November 12, 2017, 02:45:02 AM »
Thanks for all the Second World War foam - very interesting! I know a lot about the civilian side of the war and the nitty gritty of soldiering, but very little about the strategic military aspects.

BlueHouse

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #193 on: November 12, 2017, 10:35:41 AM »
Thanks for all the Second World War foam - very interesting! I know a lot about the civilian side of the war and the nitty gritty of soldiering, but very little about the strategic military aspects.

Does anyone else follow
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missbee

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #194 on: November 12, 2017, 11:04:13 PM »
Quote
-Polish cavalry charged tanks. This did not happen.
Quote
Meh. Debatable.  They threw horses at a mechanized army even if the attack started against dismounted infantry.  It was the first large-scale cavalry charge in a century for good reason.

I'd like to correct your misconception - what about the charge of the 4th light horse  brigade at Beersheba in WW1?

https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/blog/the-charge-of-the-4th-light-horse-brigade-at-beersheba

Just Joe

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #195 on: November 13, 2017, 07:29:45 AM »
Bin Laden did not mastermind 9/11

Huh, what??? Are you talking about being the head of the organization vs. doing the actual logistical planning?

But if the answer is some ridiculous conspiracy theory, then please forget I ever asked.

I think he's referring to the former.  Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the mastermind so to speak.  But then again much of the info obtained about this came to due to waterboarding, so take it all with a grain of salt. 

Also, steel beams have a melting point of 2500 degrees and jet fuel burning maxes out at 1500 degrees so... ;)

How about things within the building that were lit on fire by the jet fuel? Don't forget to add wind to that equation. It was windy the last time I was on the roof of the Twin Towers.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 07:31:20 AM by Just Joe »

Travis

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #196 on: November 13, 2017, 10:25:57 AM »
Quote
-Polish cavalry charged tanks. This did not happen.
Quote
Meh. Debatable.  They threw horses at a mechanized army even if the attack started against dismounted infantry.  It was the first large-scale cavalry charge in a century for good reason.

I'd like to correct your misconception - what about the charge of the 4th light horse  brigade at Beersheba in WW1?

https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/blog/the-charge-of-the-4th-light-horse-brigade-at-beersheba

I stand corrected.  Worth noting that they had to be issued bayonets because cavalry was no longer equipped for a classic lance/saber charge.  They thought that was a bygone era and originally planned on riding up close and dismounting to fight on foot.
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MightyAl

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #197 on: November 13, 2017, 11:32:28 AM »
PCV Valve(what do you think the V means) ATM Machine...

PCV = Positive Crankcase Ventilation.  The valve is what is used to modulate in an attempt to keep oil out of the intake.  There is a PCV valve but like in LSx engines they have an orifice and no valve.

ketchup

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #198 on: November 13, 2017, 11:58:03 AM »
PCV Valve(what do you think the V means) ATM Machine...

PCV = Positive Crankcase Ventilation.  The valve is what is used to modulate in an attempt to keep oil out of the intake.  There is a PCV valve but like in LSx engines they have an orifice and no valve.
Or if you have a five-cylinder Volvo the PCV system is all kinds of complicated and stupid...

markbike528CBX

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Re: Misconceptions people have that you'd like to correct.
« Reply #199 on: November 13, 2017, 12:17:18 PM »
Bin Laden did not mastermind 9/11

Huh, what??? Are you talking about being the head of the organization vs. doing the actual logistical planning?

But if the answer is some ridiculous conspiracy theory, then please forget I ever asked.

I think he's referring to the former.  Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the mastermind so to speak.  But then again much of the info obtained about this came to due to waterboarding, so take it all with a grain of salt. 

Also, steel beams have a melting point of 2500 degrees and jet fuel burning maxes out at 1500 degrees so... ;)

How about things within the building that were lit on fire by the jet fuel? Don't forget to add wind to that equation. It was windy the last time I was on the roof of the Twin Towers.

Misconception:  Things have to melt in order to loose strength.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-temperature-strength-d_1353.html 

 TL;Dr steel is at ~20% strength at 1500°F

If this wasn't the case, then blacksmiths couldn't work metal at less than melting point (and would have a tough time working a liquid if it was at or greater than melting).

So unless structural steel is used with a factor of 5 safety margin, then 20% of original strength will fail.
"Buildings commonly use a factor of safety of 2.0 for each structural member. " per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_of_safety