Author Topic: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary  (Read 16401 times)

Carini

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Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« on: January 04, 2016, 09:10:34 AM »
Wow. Very well produced documentary. Tore through it so quickly, just like everyone else I know that watched it. Truly disturbing. Stop reading now if you haven't watched it because I'm sure people that post here will spoil some of the story.  What were your thoughts about the case?

I was pretty outraged by the whole thing. I tried to give the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department the benefit of the doubt EVEN THOUGH they totally blew it the first time around and seemed completely inept.  By the end of the series, the main players involved truly seemed crooked and were lying through their teeth. The things that jumped out most to me and were shocking:

-The sheriff actually saying on camera that it would have been easier to kill Steven Avery than to frame him. WHAT????  A person in charge of law enforcement said this, on camera???  Pretty mind blowing.

-The evidence kit that was tampered with and syringe hole in the blood vial- crazy

-Key isn't found the first 5 times searching the room, but then mysteriously turns up on the floor after Lenk and Manitowoc cops are on the scene and it doesn't contain a single trace of her DNA, but it has his on it???  As they explained, pretty much impossible considering she would have been handling the key every single day.

- Colburn calling in the plate number on RAV4 3 days before it's found!!!???  HOW DID THEY NOT PUSH THAT ISSUE MORE?  Ok, I'm getting fired up again. I have to stop for now.

I thought Avery's attorneys were pretty incredible. I felt bad for them because I think they did a brilliant job, but no matter what they did, they were never winning that case with the shadiness involved with the whole system. 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 09:12:52 AM by Carini »

JimLahey

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2016, 11:58:39 PM »
I think one of the biggest glaring issues that was overlooked was that NONE of the victim's blood was found in Steven's trailer. The prosecutors claimed that he cleaned up every speck of blood but left the key to her vehicle, in the open, on his bedroom floor. There was also a car crusher and an incinerator on the property from what I understand. He could have easily made her car and body disappear. How those detectives treated Brendan was disgusting. Brendan's bus driver's testimony was key IMO. It directly conflicted with the one detective's timeline. It was sad seeing that Brendan clearly could not comprehend the seriousness of what he was admitting to. I signed both of these petitions in hopes that their cases will be reinvestigated.

https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-free-steven-avery

https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-free-brendan-dassey-fde1ac9b-f6b0-4967-bc99-f834588ed26d

TheBuddha

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2016, 02:21:06 AM »
It boggles the mind. Every time you think it can't get worse, it does. I'm following it on a daily basis over at Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/

It's a great documentary, though. Right up there with the Thin Blue Line.

Carini

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2016, 07:38:37 AM »
I think one of the biggest glaring issues that was overlooked was that NONE of the victim's blood was found in Steven's trailer. The prosecutors claimed that he cleaned up every speck of blood but left the key to her vehicle, in the open, on his bedroom floor. There was also a car crusher and an incinerator on the property from what I understand. He could have easily made her car and body disappear. How those detectives treated Brendan was disgusting. Brendan's bus driver's testimony was key IMO. It directly conflicted with the one detective's timeline. It was sad seeing that Brendan clearly could not comprehend the seriousness of what he was admitting to. I signed both of these petitions in hopes that their cases will be reinvestigated.

https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-free-steven-avery

https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-free-brendan-dassey-fde1ac9b-f6b0-4967-bc99-f834588ed26d

All great points. I feel like you could fill 10 pages with the glaring issues in this case.

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2016, 12:46:16 PM »
I'm surprised they didn't even bother looking into the ex-boyfriend.

What's his alibi? If they said, I forget.



Carini

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2016, 02:08:01 PM »
I'm surprised they didn't even bother looking into the ex-boyfriend.

What's his alibi? If they said, I forget.

I agree. Especially after he mysteriously guessed her voicemail password and there were deleted messages. Why didn't they follow that angle more?  And what disappearance case besides this one have you EVER heard of the boyfriend/husband not even being questioned as part of the investigation. Seems crazy.

Carini

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 01:36:26 PM »
It boggles the mind. Every time you think it can't get worse, it does. I'm following it on a daily basis over at Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/

It's a great documentary, though. Right up there with the Thin Blue Line.

Thanks for posting that reddit site.  Some good information and funny stuff over there.

NearlyThere

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2016, 03:01:13 PM »
Just finished watching the series. I've never gotten so riled up over a programme in my life. Not sure the Avery's are innocent, but reasonable doubt was definitely proven.

The way Brendan Dasseys case was handled.....absolutely shocking.



Think this sums up the mood in our house right now.

Greenroller

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2016, 09:31:18 PM »
Another I question I have is when the blood was tested ever so quickly for ETA ( I think that's what it was called, anyhow the preservative found in the blood vial) was that same blood tested for DNA and proven to even be Steven's? For all we know they could have sent a swabof the victims blood. So many more questions than answers.... And why did they not reiterate the fact that he was on the phone with his girlfriend at 3:30 on a recorded live from jail, not out of breath. Poor Brandon and his false confession, the fact that there wasn't even blood on the mattress let alone any blood splatter which would have been impossible to totally clean up should have cleared him.

Carini

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2016, 06:10:33 AM »
Just finished watching the series. I've never gotten so riled up over a programme in my life. Not sure the Avery's are innocent, but reasonable doubt was definitely proven.

The way Brendan Dasseys case was handled.....absolutely shocking.



Think this sums up the mood in our house right now.

Exactly. Even the VERY few people that think he could be guilty can't argue that there wasn't reasonable doubt. The questions I still find myself almost screaming are:

WHY WAS COLBURN CALLING IN HER PLATES DAYS BEFORE THEY FOUND THE VEHICLE??  It never got answered and is a huge question.

WHY DIDN'T THEY PRESS MORE ON THE BOYFRIEND HAVING ACCESS TO HER PASSWORD AND DELETING VOICEMAILS? 

HOW IN THE WORLD WOULD THOSE TWO GUYS GET RID OF ALL TRACES OF BLOOD IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.  Forensically impossible. 

You got me fired up again. Hahaha.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2016, 09:06:32 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

I tell people not to watch the documentary unless they're willing to live with the conviction that all they can do to help is move to Wisconsin and become governor.

It's that low information diet thing.  That this is going on today in this country is soul crushing.

frugalnacho

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2016, 11:49:13 PM »
I've watched the first 9 episodes over the last few days.  I am in shock and haven't fully processed everything.  There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions, and a whole lot of stuff that doesn't make any sense.  I need to think about this for a few more days. Just posting to follow along at this point.

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2016, 08:11:54 AM »
I've watched the first 9 episodes over the last few days.  I am in shock and haven't fully processed everything.  There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions, and a whole lot of stuff that doesn't make any sense.  I need to think about this for a few more days. Just posting to follow along at this point.

haha - yeah

It's a story being presented to us, so I do genuinely wonder how many details are left out (intentionally or not).

While watching the show, I kept thinking there must be an episode where these shitty cops and investigators get a chance to speak. But the fact they declined to be interviewed makes me feel like they had more to hide.

Also, while I'm rambling --- I did initially think it was surprising that Steven Avery did not testify. But then I think maybe the lawyers suggested he not go on stand since he's not the smartest guy and they could probably easily confuse him up there.

golden1

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2016, 08:53:55 AM »
Quote
It's a story being presented to us, so I do genuinely wonder how many details are left out (intentionally or not).

A lot.

http://time.com/4167699/netflix-making-a-murderer-evidence-left-out/

I watched this in horror like most people but had a lot of questions afterwards.  After digging a bit, my respect for the makers of this documentary faded somewhat.  They left out critical information that cast doubts on their portrayal of Steven Avery as somewhat benign.  Now, I DO think that what happened to the kid was awful, and the documentary did a great job of showing the real problems in our justice system. 

frugalnacho

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2016, 09:21:30 AM »
I've watched the first 9 episodes over the last few days.  I am in shock and haven't fully processed everything.  There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions, and a whole lot of stuff that doesn't make any sense.  I need to think about this for a few more days. Just posting to follow along at this point.

haha - yeah

It's a story being presented to us, so I do genuinely wonder how many details are left out (intentionally or not).

While watching the show, I kept thinking there must be an episode where these shitty cops and investigators get a chance to speak. But the fact they declined to be interviewed makes me feel like they had more to hide.

Also, while I'm rambling --- I did initially think it was surprising that Steven Avery did not testify. But then I think maybe the lawyers suggested he not go on stand since he's not the smartest guy and they could probably easily confuse him up there.

It was a several week murder trial.  Tons of stuff was necessarily left out.  To include every possible detail that was presented to the jury would have turned it into a several hundred hour documentary.  I just watched an interview with Ken Kratz and he raised some objections of evidence left out:

1. Steven Avery's DNA found on the hood latch of her car
2. The bullet that was found in his garage was in fact fired from his personal gun
3. Brendan's confession went into detail about how they cleaned up the garage with bleach, and police did confiscate a pair of Brendan's pants with bleach stains

1.  I don't know how convincing this is.  DNA could have been transferred from the blood in the vehicle (or some other source) and incidentally placed there when an officer attempted to open the latch of the car.  That was the rebuttal offered by Dean Strang at least.

2. This isn't surprising and honestly seems like an irrelevant detail if you buy the story that it was planted evidence in the first place.  Seems entirely plausible that if you were going to plant DNA on a bullet, it just makes sense to use one of the thousands of bullets you would surely find on his property.  I mean they had 40 acres, plenty of guns, and used the guns all the time.  They never hid that fact. I never had any doubt that the bullet originated from a gun that was on the property.

3. I also have bleach stained clothing in my house.  It was not from cleaning up a murder scene though.  I find it hard to believe that those two were able to stab, slit her throat, cut off her hair, and shoot her 11 times in the garage, and then meticulously sanitize every last trace of DNA from the garage.  While at the same time leaving bone fragments in multiple locations, his own blood all over the inside of the car, which was parked on his own property and not crushed like the thousands of other cars he crushed (they own a 40 acre salvage lot and had tons of crushed vehicles), and left the key just chilling on his bedroom floor.  It seems totally inconsistent to me that were able to sanitize the garage so thoroughly that no DNA was ever recovered (although I was led to believe there was a plethora of deer and human DNA in the garage, just none of Teresa's (except on the bullet)) like some kind of forensic experts, but they totally neglected all of the other evidence that pointed to them.  They are simultaneously criminal mastermind forensic experts, and totally inept mentally handicapped yokels.


Speaking of being inept mentally handicapped yokels, the entire family seemed mentally handicapped.  Just about every member of the family, as well as spouses and girlfriends associated with the family all seemed to be severely mentally handicapped.


Paul der Krake

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2016, 09:39:51 AM »
Soooo many red flags:

- the key with not a trace of the owner's DNA magically appearing after many searches
- complete absence of indications of struggle or blood in the bedroom
- the guy calling in the plates before the car is found !@?!?!?!?!
- the search party who seemed to know where the car was to be found
- many timelines were inconsistent
- anything that Brendan says happened
- anything that came up through Manitowac's investigation when they were told to back off
 
Do these two barely functioning idiots look like they have the mental discipline to wipe out all the evidence in the trailer YET forgetting to remove visible bloodstains from the car when they have a crusher they can use right on the property?

I don't know how the prosecution team can sleep at night.

Carini

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2016, 10:35:56 AM »
Soooo many red flags:

- the key with not a trace of the owner's DNA magically appearing after many searches
- complete absence of indications of struggle or blood in the bedroom
- the guy calling in the plates before the car is found !@?!?!?!?!
- the search party who seemed to know where the car was to be found
- many timelines were inconsistent
- anything that Brendan says happened
- anything that came up through Manitowac's investigation when they were told to back off
 
Do these two barely functioning idiots look like they have the mental discipline to wipe out all the evidence in the trailer YET forgetting to remove visible bloodstains from the car when they have a crusher they can use right on the property?

I don't know how the prosecution team can sleep at night.

yes, yes, yes, and yes.   All of those things drive me nuts.  The key appearing on the 6th time the room was searched and no trace of her DNA on it is the kicker for me though.  A team full of cops missed a key sitting on the floor 5 TIMES??????  And it doesn't contain a single trace of DNA from a person that handled the key every single day, but his DNA is on it??   100% impossible. 

frugalnacho

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2016, 11:25:15 AM »
This looked poorly done and not funny...but I ended up having a real good giggle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmQsXaXBfTk

jambongris

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2016, 11:58:07 AM »
FYI for any podcast fans out there.

There's a legal podcast called The Docket hosted by Michael Spratt, a criminal defense attorney from Ottawa, that's doing a 10 episode special on Making a Murderer. Each of the 10 podcast episodes will discuss a corresponding episode of Making a Murderer.

Michael Spratt's wife, Emilie Taman, is also joining him for these 10 episodes. Emilie was a former prosecutor in Canada before running as an NDP candidate in the last federal election.

He's only released the first episode so far and they were joined by Emilie's mom, Louise Arbour, a former Supreme Court Justice.


soccerluvof4

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2016, 09:59:58 AM »
I found the Documentary very well done and as you guys mentioned disturbing in many ways as to how so much stuff was so screwed up and or not brought up in trial. Truly a-lot of mis-justice here whether you feel he is guilty or not. Definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer though...........

arebelspy

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2016, 03:02:14 PM »
just finished the series.

and rabbit holed down articles and reddit for awhile.

ugh.

our system   :(

jurors who don't understand what beyond reasonable doubt means?  :(

coerced false confessions of mentally challenged kids?  :(

sigh.  hope they both get a new trial.
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FLA

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2016, 03:42:39 PM »
I think one of the biggest glaring issues that was overlooked was that NONE of the victim's blood was found in Steven's trailer. The prosecutors claimed that he cleaned up every speck of blood but left the key to her vehicle, in the open, on his bedroom floor. There was also a car crusher and an incinerator on the property from what I understand. He could have easily made her car and body disappear. How those detectives treated Brendan was disgusting. Brendan's bus driver's testimony was key IMO. It directly conflicted with the one detective's timeline. It was sad seeing that Brendan clearly could not comprehend the seriousness of what he was admitting to. I signed both of these petitions in hopes that their cases will be reinvestigated.

https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-free-steven-avery

https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-free-brendan-dassey-fde1ac9b-f6b0-4967-bc99-f834588ed26d

agree with all of this and all of the above.  Brendan broke my heart, IQ of 70, his mother not present, no lawyer, they coerced him.  I cried when he thought he was going back to school and wanted to be back in time to take an exam. That's how poorly he understood the circumstances and what would happen when he finally just "confessed".  I think the original timeline he gave rings so much more true for a 16 yo teen than the one he "confessed" to.  Ie: got off bus, played video games, had snacks, etc., etc. The mother saying she was never told he was being interrogated and she could be in there but the prosecution claims she was offered the opportunity. What mother would say no to that?  No one. 

And 8 days of combing the property and that corrupt cop is allowed on the scene, not monitored like they said the town's police would be to protect chain of evidence, they were not to be alone roaming around and he just happens to find that key alone on day 5? BS. 

there is no way Steven Avery, despite being of lower IQ, was this stupid, especially to do this just days before his financial settlement for the rape case.  And I don't think he is savvy enough to totally clean his trailer so not one speck of her DNA is found, nor stupid enough to leave a key (that also lacks her DNA). 

there are some good online articles that posit who the actual murderer could've been, there are at least 4 good contenders who were not checked out

I hate Dr Phil but he is showing part 2 of his thoughts and that awful shrew, Nancy Grace, tomorrow.


FLA

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2016, 03:44:30 PM »
It boggles the mind. Every time you think it can't get worse, it does. I'm following it on a daily basis over at Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/

It's a great documentary, though. Right up there with the Thin Blue Line.

if you haven't seen Thin Blue Line, do it, it's fantastic and done by Errol Morris.  He set the standard

also, the Staircase is supposed to be very well done, I think it's on Amazon
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 03:51:42 PM by FLA »

frugalnacho

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2016, 04:05:30 PM »
I have not been posting here much because I have been obsessing over this.  Seriously, I have lost a significant amount of sleep.  Partly due to diving down the rabbit hole like rebs, and partly due to being disturbed by the whole thing.

Just an update for everyone, Kathleen Zellner has taken over Steven's case pro bono and is working with Tricia Bushnell of the innocence project.  Zellner has an amazing track record.  She has had 17 murder convictions over turned (I believe the most of anyone), and is a highly respected lawyer.  From what I can see she does not fuck around, she does not take on cases she doesn't believe in 100%, and she doesn't lose.  She has been tweeting the last couple weeks dropping all kinds of insults at the prosecution. 

You can read her tweets here: https://twitter.com/ZellnerLaw

If that was anyone else I would think they were just blowing smoke up everyone's ass, but with her outstanding reputation I am inclined to believe she has some kind of smoking gun and is going to blow this case wide open.  At least I am hoping.  I am very excited to see how this all plays out.






FLA

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2016, 04:14:38 PM »

If that was anyone else I would think they were just blowing smoke up everyone's ass, but with her outstanding reputation I am inclined to believe she has some kind of smoking gun and is going to blow this case wide open.  At least I am hoping.  I am very excited to see how this all plays out.

What about Brandon?  Has anyone good taken him on?

frugalnacho

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2016, 04:17:32 PM »

If that was anyone else I would think they were just blowing smoke up everyone's ass, but with her outstanding reputation I am inclined to believe she has some kind of smoking gun and is going to blow this case wide open.  At least I am hoping.  I am very excited to see how this all plays out.

What about Brandon?  Has anyone good taken him on?

Brendan*

Not that I know of.  I believe he has a federal appeals coming up in February (i'm not positive though, I think it's something I read but I can't provide a source), and hopefully something comes from that.  I am assuming that anything that blows the lid off of the SA case will also be helpful to Brendan though. 

justajane

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2016, 04:19:05 PM »
I am convinced that an Avery did it; it just might not be Steven Avery.

Either way, the cops attempted to frame Steven Avery. Whether or not they framed an innocent man or a guilty man is the real question. To me, it is a slam dunk that the key is a plant. But who planted it? Let's say another Avery killed Theresa and attempted to frame Steven. I don't think he had the capability to plant that key with only Steven's DNA on it. Moving the bones to in front of Steven's house? Sure. Moving the car? Maybe (although that call in to dispatch was pretty telling and leads me to think the cops were involved in that too).

So, either Steven did it, and the cops planted random evidence to convict him (still entirely not okay).

Or another Avery (or Averys plural) did it, hated Steven, and decided to move the bones. Then the cops helped them along (unknowingly to the real killers) and planted even more evidence.

I think it's possible that Steven could have done this, but he likely shot her somewhere on the vast property and tried to burn her body. She never went in his trailer or in the garage. There was no rape with hand-cuffs, stabbing, etc. etc. He lost his temper and shot her.

Regardless, both Steven and Brendan should have a new trial. And some of those cops and the defense attorney should lose their jobs and maybe be in jail for what they did.

I'm really surprised that the Innocence Project is taking this on. From my perspective, there's not enough to conclude that he is 100% innocent. But, then again, I'm one of the only people in this entire country who still doesn't necessarily think the West Memphis 3 are innocent, so there's that.

Telecaster

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2016, 04:30:31 PM »


agree with all of this and all of the above.  Brendan broke my heart, IQ of 70, his mother not present, no lawyer, they coerced him.  I cried when he thought he was going back to school and wanted to be back in time to take an exam. That's how poorly he understood the circumstances and what would happen when he finally just "confessed".  I think the original timeline he gave rings so much more true for a 16 yo teen than the one he "confessed" to.  Ie: got off bus, played video games, had snacks, etc., etc. The mother saying she was never told he was being interrogated and she could be in there but the prosecution claims she was offered the opportunity. What mother would say no to that?  No one. 

That was terrible.  They kept saying "tell the truth and everything will be okay."  But whenever he said that they didn't like they said he was lying.   He eventually caves in after they spoon feed him the answers.   

"Everything okay" meant life in prison.   The kid clearly had no idea what was going on.   

arebelspy

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2016, 05:21:04 PM »
I am convinced that an Avery did it; it just might not be Steven Avery.

I don't understand how you can be convinced of anything based on a little reporting in the news and a biased documentary.

What about the presumption of innocence?

I don't know how Theresa died, and if I were sitting on a jury, I'd want it proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant sitting in front of me was the one that did it.

I don't think we have proof enough to be convince of anything, IMO.
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justajane

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2016, 05:32:31 PM »
I am convinced that an Avery did it; it just might not be Steven Avery.

I don't understand how you can be convinced of anything based on a little reporting in the news and a biased documentary.

What about the presumption of innocence?

I don't know how Theresa died, and if I were sitting on a jury, I'd want it proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant sitting in front of me was the one that did it.

I don't think we have proof enough to be convince of anything, IMO.

Fair enough. But regarding the presumption of innocence, it's a legal concept. I don't live in Wisconsin. I will never sit on any jury in that state. I can speculate however I wish. It really doesn't affect his presumption of innocence directly.

Someone killed that poor woman. We can be certain of that, right? The burned bones fragments were found on the Avery property. We can be certain of that, right?

Either it was an Avery or it wasn't. We can be certain about that, right?  In my mind, it strains some serious credibility that #1 someone not an Avery would have killed her and moved the bone fragments to the Avery property. How would they have known precisely where to put them so that Steven would be fingered? or #2 the cops would have found the bones elsewhere and moved them on the Avery property. I can accept that law enforcement would plant other evidence, but the whole premise here is that the cops think Avery is guilty. If they found the bones somewhere else not on the Avery compound, they would know that he isn't guilty. I don't think that anyone ever connected to the case, even his defense attorneys, think that the Manitowoc police department have knowingly framed an innocent man. They think he's guilty.

So, yeah, I am pretty darn convinced that an Avery did this. I guess there's some slight possibility a neighbor very close by did it, but not someone from the Halbach family or an ex-boyfriend. That was just smoke and mirrors on the part of the documentary.

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2016, 05:47:56 PM »
I have not been posting here much because I have been obsessing over this.  Seriously, I have lost a significant amount of sleep.  Partly due to diving down the rabbit hole like rebs, and partly due to being disturbed by the whole thing.

Just an update for everyone, Kathleen Zellner has taken over Steven's case pro bono and is working with Tricia Bushnell of the innocence project.  Zellner has an amazing track record.  She has had 17 murder convictions over turned (I believe the most of anyone), and is a highly respected lawyer.  From what I can see she does not fuck around, she does not take on cases she doesn't believe in 100%, and she doesn't lose.  She has been tweeting the last couple weeks dropping all kinds of insults at the prosecution. 

You can read her tweets here: https://twitter.com/ZellnerLaw

If that was anyone else I would think they were just blowing smoke up everyone's ass, but with her outstanding reputation I am inclined to believe she has some kind of smoking gun and is going to blow this case wide open.  At least I am hoping.  I am very excited to see how this all plays out.

Thanks for the update!  I won't remember to follow, and I don't twitter much, so if you see something major and happen to remember to post it, I'd appreciate it.  :)
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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2016, 05:49:50 PM »
I am convinced that an Avery did it; it just might not be Steven Avery.

I don't understand how you can be convinced of anything based on a little reporting in the news and a biased documentary.

What about the presumption of innocence?

I don't know how Theresa died, and if I were sitting on a jury, I'd want it proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant sitting in front of me was the one that did it.

I don't think we have proof enough to be convince of anything, IMO.

Fair enough. But regarding the presumption of innocence, it's a legal concept. I don't live in Wisconsin. I will never sit on any jury in that state. I can speculate however I wish. It really doesn't affect his presumption of innocence directly.

Someone killed that poor woman. We can be certain of that, right? The burned bones fragments were found on the Avery property. We can be certain of that, right?

Either it was an Avery or it wasn't. We can be certain about that, right?  In my mind, it strains some serious credibility that #1 someone not an Avery would have killed her and moved the bone fragments to the Avery property. How would they have known precisely where to put them so that Steven would be fingered? or #2 the cops would have found the bones elsewhere and moved them on the Avery property. I can accept that law enforcement would plant other evidence, but the whole premise here is that the cops think Avery is guilty. If they found the bones somewhere else not on the Avery compound, they would know that he isn't guilty. I don't think that anyone ever connected to the case, even his defense attorneys, think that the Manitowoc police department have knowingly framed an innocent man. They think he's guilty.

So, yeah, I am pretty darn convinced that an Avery did this. I guess there's some slight possibility a neighbor very close by did it, but not someone from the Halbach family or an ex-boyfriend. That was just smoke and mirrors on the part of the documentary.

I have no idea how the bones got there.  I think they were moved.  But I'm not sure of that.  I have nowhere near enough evidence to even think it's more likely than not the killer's last name was "Avery" versus "Dassey" versus whatever other last name.
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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2016, 06:10:51 PM »

If that was anyone else I would think they were just blowing smoke up everyone's ass, but with her outstanding reputation I am inclined to believe she has some kind of smoking gun and is going to blow this case wide open.  At least I am hoping.  I am very excited to see how this all plays out.

What about Brandon?  Has anyone good taken him on?

Brendan*

Not that I know of.  I believe he has a federal appeals coming up in February (i'm not positive though, I think it's something I read but I can't provide a source), and hopefully something comes from that.  I am assuming that anything that blows the lid off of the SA case will also be helpful to Brendan though.

Correction, it's not an appeal it's a federal hebeus corpus petition.  My understanding is that this is filed when a prisoner's constitutional rights have been violated.   Such as being interviewed at age 16 with no legal representation, and not receiving a fair trial.  It's going to be reviewed by a federal judge (thank god it's not wisconsin!) who has an appointed position (not elected) so hopefully he is unbiased and not swayed.  I think I read that it would be happening some time in February, but I can't find anything to back that up, and I don't know if where I originally read that was fact or just speculation.

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2016, 06:16:12 PM »
I am convinced that an Avery did it; it just might not be Steven Avery.

I don't understand how you can be convinced of anything based on a little reporting in the news and a biased documentary.

What about the presumption of innocence?

I don't know how Theresa died, and if I were sitting on a jury, I'd want it proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant sitting in front of me was the one that did it.

I don't think we have proof enough to be convince of anything, IMO.

Fair enough. But regarding the presumption of innocence, it's a legal concept. I don't live in Wisconsin. I will never sit on any jury in that state. I can speculate however I wish. It really doesn't affect his presumption of innocence directly.

Someone killed that poor woman. We can be certain of that, right? The burned bones fragments were found on the Avery property. We can be certain of that, right?

Either it was an Avery or it wasn't. We can be certain about that, right?  In my mind, it strains some serious credibility that #1 someone not an Avery would have killed her and moved the bone fragments to the Avery property. How would they have known precisely where to put them so that Steven would be fingered? or #2 the cops would have found the bones elsewhere and moved them on the Avery property. I can accept that law enforcement would plant other evidence, but the whole premise here is that the cops think Avery is guilty. If they found the bones somewhere else not on the Avery compound, they would know that he isn't guilty. I don't think that anyone ever connected to the case, even his defense attorneys, think that the Manitowoc police department have knowingly framed an innocent man. They think he's guilty.

So, yeah, I am pretty darn convinced that an Avery did this. I guess there's some slight possibility a neighbor very close by did it, but not someone from the Halbach family or an ex-boyfriend. That was just smoke and mirrors on the part of the documentary.

I have no idea how the bones got there.  I think they were moved.  But I'm not sure of that.  I have nowhere near enough evidence to even think it's more likely than not the killer's last name was "Avery" versus "Dassey" versus whatever other last name.

The bones were for sure moved.  I don't know the original burn location, but they were recovered in: his fire pit, a burn barrel, and the quarry.  A minimum of 2 of those locations had to have the bones moved to them after they were burned.

I don't know who did it, and there is a lot of damning evidence surrounding Steven.  But presumption of innocence is not a wisconsin thing, it's a USA thing.  I think Steven might fall some where in the middle of this chart:



which is not enough to convict someone of murder.  There is tons of reasonable doubt that he did it, even after considering all the evidence. 

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2016, 06:16:23 PM »
Googled it--looks like the judge has it, ruling could be at any time, or could be months or even a year.  "There is no deadline for this decision."

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Local-Lawyer-Hopeful-Judge-Will-Grant-Petition-for-New-Trial-in-Dassey-Case-364321141.html

https://www.change.org/p/president-of-the-united-states-free-steven-avery/u/14762830

More links on it if you google brendan dassey habeas corpus.
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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2016, 06:19:03 PM »
I am convinced that an Avery did it; it just might not be Steven Avery.

I don't understand how you can be convinced of anything based on a little reporting in the news and a biased documentary.

What about the presumption of innocence?

I don't know how Theresa died, and if I were sitting on a jury, I'd want it proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant sitting in front of me was the one that did it.

I don't think we have proof enough to be convince of anything, IMO.

Fair enough. But regarding the presumption of innocence, it's a legal concept. I don't live in Wisconsin. I will never sit on any jury in that state. I can speculate however I wish. It really doesn't affect his presumption of innocence directly.

Someone killed that poor woman. We can be certain of that, right? The burned bones fragments were found on the Avery property. We can be certain of that, right?

Either it was an Avery or it wasn't. We can be certain about that, right?  In my mind, it strains some serious credibility that #1 someone not an Avery would have killed her and moved the bone fragments to the Avery property. How would they have known precisely where to put them so that Steven would be fingered? or #2 the cops would have found the bones elsewhere and moved them on the Avery property. I can accept that law enforcement would plant other evidence, but the whole premise here is that the cops think Avery is guilty. If they found the bones somewhere else not on the Avery compound, they would know that he isn't guilty. I don't think that anyone ever connected to the case, even his defense attorneys, think that the Manitowoc police department have knowingly framed an innocent man. They think he's guilty.

So, yeah, I am pretty darn convinced that an Avery did this. I guess there's some slight possibility a neighbor very close by did it, but not someone from the Halbach family or an ex-boyfriend. That was just smoke and mirrors on the part of the documentary.

I have no idea how the bones got there.  I think they were moved.  But I'm not sure of that.  I have nowhere near enough evidence to even think it's more likely than not the killer's last name was "Avery" versus "Dassey" versus whatever other last name.

There's 100% certainty some of the bones were moved, as evidenced by multiple burn piles. I just think that, in the case of the bones, this is a pretty clear cut case of Occam's razor.

I might add that, even if Steven Avery is guilty (and there's a definite chance that he is), I think he should have a new trial. What is more, I still think, even if he is guilty, that this whole case was a miscarriage of justice, in large part b/c of Brendan and the obvious shenanigans of the police departments.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 06:23:15 PM by justajane »

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2016, 06:22:27 PM »
But presumption of innocence is not a wisconsin thing, it's a USA thing. .

Of course. My point was that it is something that takes place in the courtroom -- not in my living room. I have no obligation to withhold judgement when I am thinking of this case in the privacy of my own home. If I happen to be on a jury in the future? Of course I should, and I will.

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2016, 06:23:35 PM »
To clarify: I think the bones were moved to the burn pit.  Obviously some bones were moved.
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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2016, 06:25:55 PM »
But presumption of innocence is not a wisconsin thing, it's a USA thing. .

Of course. My point was that it is something that takes place in the courtroom -- not in my living room. I have no obligation to withhold judgement when I am thinking of this case in the privacy of my own home. If I happen to be on a jury in the future? Of course I should, and I will.

Sure, but you didn't use language like "I think he probably did it" or "I feel like it's more likely than not..." but "I am convinced."

I just find it hard to be convinced of anything from some news reporting and a biased documentary.

I'm somewhat convinced they both didn't get a fair trial, and that Brenden was manipulated into his "confession."  That's about all I'm convinced of.  They should have a new trial.

Beyond that?  I have some opinions, but I'm not convinced any of them are correct, and I'm mostly reserving judgement beyond "they deserve a fair trial."
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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2016, 06:36:06 PM »
Yes, arebelspy, I am convinced that an Avery did it. There are lots of them on that compound to choose from. Unless someone confesses, however, there will likely never be enough evidence to convict one of them beyond a reasonable doubt.

This confidence of mine isn't based on a "biased documentary" or media innuendo. This is based on the fact that the bones were found on the Avery property. I cannot find any reasonable scenario in which the bones were moved from an entirely different murder location and burn site onto the Avery property.

I guess a non-Avery could have killed Theresa on the Avery property and gotten some propane and burned her there. It just seems pretty far-fetched. Once again, Occam's razor.

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2016, 01:59:24 AM »
Occam's razor is a nice shortcut, but it's not enough to convince me of someone's guilt or innocence regarding murder.
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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2016, 06:00:20 AM »
Occam's razor is a nice shortcut, but it's not enough to convince me of someone's guilt or innocence regarding murder.

I guess I'm just more comfortable with arm chair certainty than you are :). Note, I did not say I was 100% convinced about any one person's guilt or innocence, just that I am convinced that the person who killed her is someone in that family. Those are two different things. I am not 100% convinced that Steve Avery did it, nor that any other particular individual did it. Fingering one murderer or murderers doesn't lend itself as easily to certainty.

I'm sure such a study has never been done, but I wonder percentage-wise how often burned human remains have been found on a property and the murder has been found not to be perpetrated by someone intimately connected with the property, i.e. someone who lives there. It's probably happened in the history of the world, but it's not a common thing to happen. I guess you could argue that this case defies categorization, though, in large part because of the police department and their interference.

I'm intrigued that many people are 100% convinced about his innocence by watching the documentary, so much so that they'll sign a change.org petition calling for none other than Obama to pardon a convicted murderer. Even the film makers said they didn't know if he was actually innocent or not.

This case has certainly led to the crazy conspiracy theories, though. I've read that the same serial killer who killed Jon Benet Ramsey, the three boys in West Memphis, and the Black Dahlia (head blown) probably killed Theresa Halbach. I've read that she committed suicide, the cops found her body before anyone else, and they burned her body to frame Steve Avery. I've even read that they sacrificed the life of this innocent girl and killed her in order to frame him. And on and on and on.

What I love about the title is its double meaning. The cops and prosecutors could be making a murderer through their unethical machinations. Or, maybe Avery's extended time in prison for a rape he didn't commit made him into a murderer. Which ever one it is, the true indictment is on the justice system itself.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 08:22:12 AM by justajane »

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2016, 08:33:16 AM »
But presumption of innocence is not a wisconsin thing, it's a USA thing. .

Of course. My point was that it is something that takes place in the courtroom -- not in my living room. I have no obligation to withhold judgement when I am thinking of this case in the privacy of my own home. If I happen to be on a jury in the future? Of course I should, and I will.

Yes, you should, and you state with absolute certainty that you would, but how confident can you really be in your own ability to suspend your previously-formed beliefs and impartially weigh the evidence presented to you at trial and arrive at a verdict based solely on that evidence using the burden-of-proof standard required by law should you actually be called to serve on a jury related to this case?  Because that's exactly what the legal system asked of the jurors who actually did serve in Avery's trial--they were all exposed in advance to a media blitz covering Avery's alleged murder of Theresa, and likely formed beliefs about his guilt or innocence in the privacy of their living rooms (and around the neighborhood watercoolers) before being chosen to serve as jurors in his trial.*  It's a lot to ask of a person to suspend their own potential preconceived, and potentially subliminal, biases.  In my view, a big part of what seems to have been a miscarriage of justice was the fact that both Avery's underwent "trials by media" that may have influenced the outcomes of their trials in a court of law.

*(Am I correct in remembering that jury pool for Steven's trial was drawn from his own county?  I'm trying to avoid testing my rabbit-hole-avoidance willpower by refraining from googling for the answer myself.)

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2016, 08:36:55 AM »

I'm intrigued that many people are 100% convinced about his innocence by watching the documentary, so much so that they'll sign a change.org petition calling for none other than Obama to pardon a convicted murderer. Even the film makers said they didn't know if he was actually innocent or not.


Me too.  I think a retrial is in order and I think discipline against the cops who interrogated Brendan Dassey is called for.  But there was so much left out of the documentary, for the purpose of good story-telling (as described by the film makers).  Avery doused his cat in gasoline and threw it into a bonfire.  That's pretty evil in my book.

Also, I will never sign a change.org petition again.  They sold my email address and I've been getting massive amounts of spam ever since I signed one petition. 

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2016, 08:45:35 AM »
*(Am I correct in remembering that jury pool for Steven's trial was drawn from his own county?  I'm trying to avoid testing my rabbit-hole-avoidance willpower by refraining from googling for the answer myself.)

Yes.  Brenden's were bussed in from the neighboring county, but Steven's were the same county.

Of course they all had heard of it and seen the news reports.

The worst part to me, though, was that two of the jurors who convicted Avery were related to Manitowoc County employees--but the defense was out of "strikes" by that point.  In fact, one of the jurors was a volunteer sheriff with the Manitowoc County Sheriff's department!

What a crazy case.

I really liked his two lawyers, but I don't understand why that juror didn't get striken for cause, and why they didn't get jurors from another county. Both were options available to them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/41ala0/the_issues_with_bias_in_steven_averys_jury_and/
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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2016, 08:53:27 AM »
There is a good article in the New Yorker about this series that brings in some interesting perspectives. (It's brief for a New Yorker article). http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/25/dead-certainty

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2016, 08:58:38 AM »
*(Am I correct in remembering that jury pool for Steven's trial was drawn from his own county?  I'm trying to avoid testing my rabbit-hole-avoidance willpower by refraining from googling for the answer myself.)

Yes it was.  In fact one of the jurors was the father of a Manitowoc sherrif (and a volunteer sherrif himself), and one was related to a county clerk.  The defense was aware of this, but had already used their 6 pre-emptive strikes to remove jurors that were even more biased than the ones they left in.  It's fucking mind blowing.

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2016, 09:06:42 AM »
I liked the series though it had a massive slant toward the accused.  The filmakers have since said it was "objective" but I beg to differ--there seemed to be lots of stuff they were leaving out.

I remember one part which struck me (during the trial) and I said out loud, "They found handcuffs?!   What the fuck?  I want to hear about these!!"  But they never touched on it even for a second. 

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2016, 09:13:31 AM »

I'm intrigued that many people are 100% convinced about his innocence by watching the documentary, so much so that they'll sign a change.org petition calling for none other than Obama to pardon a convicted murderer. Even the film makers said they didn't know if he was actually innocent or not.


Me too.  I think a retrial is in order and I think discipline against the cops who interrogated Brendan Dassey is called for.  But there was so much left out of the documentary, for the purpose of good story-telling (as described by the film makers).  Avery doused his cat in gasoline and threw it into a bonfire.  That's pretty evil in my book.

Also, I will never sign a change.org petition again.  They sold my email address and I've been getting massive amounts of spam ever since I signed one petition.

People are idiots and are easily swayed.  I'm not entirely convinced of their innocence and didn't sign the petition.  There is a petition to investigate the Manitowoc sherrifs department on change.org however:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/initiate-federal-investigation-sheriffs-department-manitowoc-county-and-calumet-county-wisconsin

And I did sign that, and would encourage others to sign as well.  I don't think it's going to reach it's goal though.  I think they really blew their wad with the bullshit pardon petitions they originally put up, and I think they should have put this petition up first and it would have gotten overwhelming support. I can't say whether they sell email addresses or what, I don't know about that.  I have signed a few other petitions in the past, but didn't notice a surge in spam.  I get hordes of spam at all my email addresses though, but I got it long before signing a petition.

There is a good article in the New Yorker about this series that brings in some interesting perspectives. (It's brief for a New Yorker article). http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/25/dead-certainty

This was a terrible op-ed IMO.  It's clearly biased pro-prosecution and presents some of the same fallacious arguments including "sweat DNA". 

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Re: Making a Murderer- Netflix Documentary
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2016, 09:25:46 AM »
I really liked his two lawyers, but I don't understand why that juror didn't get striken for cause, and why they didn't get jurors from another county. Both were options available to them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/41ala0/the_issues_with_bias_in_steven_averys_jury_and/

So much for my half-hearted attempt at rabbit-hole-avoidance.  According to someone in that reddit thread:

Quote from: Reddit thread participant, quoting another source
And Strang [one of Steven Avery's trial lawyers] has reportedly said:

Why wasn’t the trial moved to a different county?

“Good question. The answer to that, right or wrong, was that after the 2 March 2006 press conference that the lead prosecutor held at about 3pm, there wasn’t a county – of 72 in Wisconsin – that we could have gone to that wasn’t massively affected by that lurid press conference which only later proved unsupportable by the facts.

But it was there, almost a year before the trial. So we opted to stay with the jury in the county, that was at least familiar with this sheriff’s department and probably most familiar with the history of Mr Avery’s involvement with the sheriff’s department. Really, there’s nowhere we could have gone where we would have had a jury that was a blank slate.

“I’d probably do it over again but the next lawyer might make a different, strategic decision, and she may be just as reasonable as I.”
(emphasis mine)

So, we, the populace, with our lurid demand for sensationalism (which, in turn, gives rise to its creation in and by the media), are in large part ultimately responsible for robbing people like Steven and Brendan Avery of the opportunity for a fair trial.