Author Topic: Major Upset in USA politics  (Read 80003 times)

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Major Upset in USA politics
« on: June 11, 2014, 07:44:32 AM »
In an upset for the ages, Majority Leader Eric Cantor of Virginia, the second-most powerful man in the House, was dethroned Tuesday by a little-known, tea party-backed Republican primary challenger carried to victory on a wave of public anger over calls for looser immigration laws.

"This is a miracle from God that just happened," exulted David Brat, an economics professor, as his victory became clear in the congressional district around Virginia's capital city.

Speaking to downcast supporters, Cantor conceded, "Obviously we came up short" in a bid for renomination to an eighth term.

The victory was by far the biggest of the 2014 campaign season for tea party forces, although last week they forced veteran Mississippi Sen. Thad Cochran into a June 24 runoff, and hope state Sen. Chris McDaniel can prevail then.

Cantor's defeat was the first primary setback for a senior leader in Congress in recent years. Former House Speaker Thomas Foley of Washington and Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota both lost their seats at the polls in the past two decades, but they fell to Republicans, not to challengers from within their own parties.

The outcome may well mark the end of Cantor's political career, and aides did not respond Tuesday night when asked if the majority leader, 51, would run a write-in campaign in the fall.

But its impact on the fate of immigration legislation in the current Congress seemed clearer still. Conservatives will now be emboldened in their opposition to legislation to create a path to citizenship for immigrants living in the country illegally, and party leaders who are more sympathetic to such legislation will likely be less willing to try.

The majority leader had been tugged by two warring forces in his party and in recent weeks sought to emphasize his opposition to far-reaching immigration legislation as Brat's challenge gained force. Last month, a feisty crowd of Brat supporters booed Cantor in front of his family at a local party convention.

Still, neither he nor other House leaders betrayed any serious concern that his tenure was in danger, and his allies leaked a private poll in recent days that claimed he had a comfortable lead over Brat.

In the end, despite help from establishment groups, Cantor's repudiation was complete in an area that first sent him to Congress in 2000.

With votes counted in 99 percent of the precincts, 64,418 votes were cast, roughly a 37 percent increase over two years ago.

Despite that, Cantor polled fewer votes than he did in 2012 — 28,631 this time, compared with 37,369 then.

House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, issued a statement hailing Cantor as "a good friend and a great leader, and someone I've come to rely upon on a daily basis as we make the tough choices that come with governing."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/house-majority-leader-cantor-defeated-primary-24081606

Congratulations to the people of Virginia

For throwing out of office a guy who no longer represented you

A win for the little guy....and a shot across the bow to those who think their position is so entrenched, that they cant lose

You are elected to represent YOUR district.....not to cater to party politics, or to kiss the ass of every large contributor you can find

Are you listening Washington......you better be......


GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23224
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 08:08:13 AM »
It's certainly interesting.  I'm not sure that voting in a person who is a member of a party devoted to making government as ineffectual as possible is a positive change for the people of Virginia though.

smalllife

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 978
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 08:13:11 AM »
It means that even a gerrymandered Republican district has a chance to vote in a non-Republican, especially with everything that's been going on in the capital this past year.  Bratt is crazy even for that district, although Cantor wasn't much better - good riddance.

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 08:27:45 AM »
I'm not sure that voting in a person who is a member of a party devoted to making government as ineffectual as possible is a positive change for the people of Virginia though.

i have been to a bunch of the grass roots meetings of the tea party....

have you?

at the meetings i attended it was about what is wrong with government politics, and what they could do to affect change

most of the people there are more libertarian, than republican or democratic

smaller government....less intervention

people being responsible for themselves

stopping the influx of illegal aliens

there are outliers at some of the events....just like i have seen at some of the other political events i have been to

majority though are hard working, pro small business, pro individual rights

just like the black panthers dont speak for the majority of democrats, the outliers dont speak for the tea party

hybrid

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Richmond, Virginia
  • A hybrid of MMM and thoughtful consumer.
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 09:14:20 AM »
I've been to a Tea Party rally, and frankly I find it to be little more than older, whiter, and often bitter hard right-wing conservatives and libertarians that are great at identifying everything wrong in Washington and yet offer precious little of a practical nature to solve these problems. The immigration issue isn't going away and neither are the Latinos who have been in the US working under the radar for years and years. Some sort of workable solution needs to be figured out, and building the Great Wall of Mexico is not that solution (not to mention a giant money pit). Self-deportation (to use Romney's phrase) just ain't gonna happen either.

Having said all that, I am happy to see Eric Cantor go bye-bye. Congratulations Mr. Brat, you've done the Commonwealth a service yesterday. Do you have a brother that can run against Randy Forbes in my part of Richmond? 

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 09:32:04 AM »
i resemble that remark....about older, white, libertarian guys

but i disagree on the no practical solutions

this is from a meeting a few months back

to help solve the illegals, and what to do with them, and border security

we need to have border security first....how do we get it.....we close down the majority of bases worldwide that house our military.....we leave a few open in critical areas, or as staging bases
maybe we need 5 total.....close all the rest
with the money saved, we can use those troops to secure the border, or hire agents to seal the border
i want it lethal to try and cross....a few may make it, but we wont have 800k crossing per year
we put teeth into the hiring of illegals.....first offense 500k.....second offence 1million......third offence loss of the business and all related assets
we make e-verify national and the law
for those businesses that try to continue to use illegals paying cash under the table, i dont have a solution yet....

for those here, we put together a plan to help them gain citizenship
we make it hard, but doable
and learning the language is one of the requirements
maybe it takes 7-10 years, but at the end, they become full fledge citizens

there are solutions to the problems.....no they arent easy......nor will they be palatable to all

hybrid

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Richmond, Virginia
  • A hybrid of MMM and thoughtful consumer.
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 09:57:04 AM »
i resemble that remark....about older, white, libertarian guys

but i disagree on the no practical solutions

i want it lethal to try and cross....

I have nothing further to add about the Tea Party. They do the job nicely all by themselves.

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 10:18:42 AM »
i resemble that remark....about older, white, libertarian guys

but i disagree on the no practical solutions

this is from a meeting a few months back

to help solve the illegals, and what to do with them, and border security


I resemble "older/white/libertarian" too... and you know what?  The libertarian stance on immigration is a more open border and a simpler system to allow legal immigration.     "Lethal to cross"?  Not libertarian.  Not even close.

http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration

trailrated

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Bay Area Ca
  • a smooth sea never made a skilled sailor
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 11:01:34 AM »
I have to say it is quite astounding what took place in Va. There are so many factions within the Republican party or any party for that matter where people are involved for so many different reasons. I managed the field operations for a few counties in a swing state for the Romney campaign and it was wild what I saw.

Just to name a few of the negative
-Yes there were insane crazy old(and young) white racist people comparing Obama to Hitler non stop
-Yes there were extremely devout religious folks who were there because they were anti abortion
-Yes I got death threats...from crazy super far right and from the crazy super far left

Just to name a few of the positive
-Of the two paid staff members I had (both were amazing, hard working, and I have kept in touch) one was a black woman in her mid 30's and the other was a white male in his 20's that was gay...and yes we worked for the Republican party
-Even though everyone was working for something completely different I have never been around so much kindness and compassion (the good people far outnumbered the bad/delusional)

The shift in direction I saw between the staff of the campaign 30 and below was for
-Smaller Government
-Supported marriage equality
-Supported immigration reform in some form (mostly some sort of amnesty for who was here already while tightening up border security)

Just my 2 cents.

randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 11:04:50 AM »
for those businesses that try to continue to use illegals paying cash under the table, i dont have a solution yet....

and learning the language is one of the requirements
maybe it takes 7-10 years, but at the end, they become full fledge citizens

Does the solution involve a gun? I bet it involves a gun. Most tea party "solutions" do.

Naturalization already requires a working knowledge of English for most applicants.

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9930
  • Registered member
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 11:12:21 AM »
If you want more sympathy for your political views, I highly recommend gyroscopicinvesting.com, which regularly has threads debating whether Obama is the antichrist.

Lans Holman

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 276
  • Location: North by Northwest
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 11:48:43 AM »
Without getting into the merits of the different candidates at all, I would just observe that this is an excellent example for people of any political persuasion in the power of showing up.  Turnout was pretty low for this primary (presumably a lot of Cantor's supporters assumed it was in the bag) and that gave a relatively small group of people the opportunity to make a pretty substantial impact on national politics. 

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4038
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2014, 11:53:14 AM »
I'm not sure that voting in a person who is a member of a party devoted to making government as ineffectual as possible is a positive change for the people of Virginia though.

I didn't see anything in the article about Democrats :-)

Seriously, though, if the government is doing something you think should not be done, and you can't manage to stop it, shouldn't you at least be somewhat happy that they're doing it ineffectually?

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2014, 11:54:20 AM »
i resemble that remark....about older, white, libertarian guys

but i disagree on the no practical solutions

i want it lethal to try and cross....

I have nothing further to add about the Tea Party. They do the job nicely all by themselves.

so you want an open border.....

tell me....does germany have an open border?
spain?
england?
india?

can you tell me any nation that has such a thing?

i have zero issue dealing with the 12-14 million illegals here now.....in some way or another

but i think it is way past time, we made anyone else that wants to come in, sign the freaking register

millions of people have done it the right way.....including my relatives

our visa and immigration policies are antiquated....and need to be reviewed

but enough of the border jumpers already

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2014, 12:06:51 PM »

You didn't quote me ... but I think you're referring to me.

Had you quoted, you would have seen I said "more open border", not "open border".   

Going through the current procedures -- depending on your resources and your profession -- it is extremely expensive and can take from just a few years to 20+.  It's a dumb procedure, especially for a country that was built on immigration.

i resemble that remark....about older, white, libertarian guys

but i disagree on the no practical solutions

i want it lethal to try and cross....

I have nothing further to add about the Tea Party. They do the job nicely all by themselves.

so you want an open border.....

tell me....does germany have an open border?
spain?
england?
india?

can you tell me any nation that has such a thing?

i have zero issue dealing with the 12-14 million illegals here now.....in some way or another

but i think it is way past time, we made anyone else that wants to come in, sign the freaking register

millions of people have done it the right way.....including my relatives

our visa and immigration policies are antiquated....and need to be reviewed

but enough of the border jumpers already

fallstoclimb

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1090
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2014, 12:13:17 PM »
Can I ask a question?  This is risking a thread derail but I really don't feel like wading through google on this one.  Why are Tea Partiers so focused on illegal immigration? 

I don't actually know much about the Tea Party, other than they definitely want me out of a job (fed employee).


hybrid

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Richmond, Virginia
  • A hybrid of MMM and thoughtful consumer.
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2014, 12:13:48 PM »
i resemble that remark....about older, white, libertarian guys

but i disagree on the no practical solutions

i want it lethal to try and cross....

I have nothing further to add about the Tea Party. They do the job nicely all by themselves.

so you want an open border.....

I thinking the notion of using lethal force at the border as you suggest is tinfoil-hat nutty, plain and simple. If this is more representative of your Tea Party meetings I think you have done us all a great service today, so I thank you for sharing your opinion.

mulescent

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2014, 12:17:08 PM »
Seriously, though, if the government is doing something you think should not be done, and you can't manage to stop it, shouldn't you at least be somewhat happy that they're doing it ineffectually?

This is so exasperating!  We live in a democracy.  If we, as a people, have charted a course of action then it is your duty as a citizen to carry it out (unless it's something crazy immoral).  Throwing wrenches into the machine just because you happen to disagree is not how the social contract works.  Don't like welfare?  Great, convince enough of your fellow citizens that it should be eliminated and it will be.  Think global warming is a hoax?  Fine, convince the majority of your opinion and we'll act accordingly.  However, deciding as an individual (or a political party or whatever) that you are going to wreck the system just because you can't have your way is offensive, hateful, stupid and treasonous. 

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2014, 12:22:09 PM »
i resemble that remark....about older, white, libertarian guys

but i disagree on the no practical solutions

i want it lethal to try and cross....

I have nothing further to add about the Tea Party. They do the job nicely all by themselves.

so you want an open border.....

I thinking the notion of using lethal force at the border as you suggest is tinfoil-hat nutty, plain and simple. If this is more representative of your Tea Party meetings I think you have done us all a great service today, so I thank you for sharing your opinion.

and you for yours

yeah....it's nuts for a country to actually want to protect it's citizens, and stop the influx of millions of border jumpers

and if you think "asking" people not to cross is going to work, maybe you need to borrow my tinfoil hat

and btw....most of the ones that border jump have zero skills, and become somewhat of a burden on society as a whole

the immigrants who actually come in the front door, have skills, and are for the most part, self sufficient

they arent adding to the debt my grand daughter will one day have to payoff

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2014, 12:26:35 PM »
Seriously, though, if the government is doing something you think should not be done, and you can't manage to stop it, shouldn't you at least be somewhat happy that they're doing it ineffectually?

This is so exasperating!  We live in a democracy.  If we, as a people, have charted a course of action then it is your duty as a citizen to carry it out (unless it's something crazy immoral).  Throwing wrenches into the machine just because you happen to disagree is not how the social contract works.  Don't like welfare?  Great, convince enough of your fellow citizens that it should be eliminated and it will be.  Think global warming is a hoax?  Fine, convince the majority of your opinion and we'll act accordingly.  However, deciding as an individual (or a political party or whatever) that you are going to wreck the system just because you can't have your way is offensive, hateful, stupid and treasonous.

no we dont live in a democracy

we live in a republic

a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.

we elect representatives who are then supposed to represent their constituents in the way they vote

doesnt always happen like that....but that is the way it is supposed to work

mulescent

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2014, 12:34:06 PM »
Quote
no we dont live in a democracy

I apologize for the shorthand, but it doesn't change my point.

Franklin

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Location: Rochester, NY
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2014, 12:50:15 PM »
Quote
and btw....most of the ones that border jump have zero skills, and become somewhat of a burden on society as a whole

Not a requirement.

“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2014, 12:53:34 PM »
Quote
no we dont live in a democracy

I apologize for the shorthand, but it doesn't change my point.

so you are saying that it is the representatives role to do as the public in general wants?

or to do what their district has sent them to do?

please, enlighten us with your wisdom

smalllife

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 978
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2014, 01:03:40 PM »

or to do what their district has sent them to do?


What are your thoughts on this?

If 50.2% of their district votes for the representative, should they straddle the party line to accommodate the other 49.8% who did NOT vote for them?  I would think that would be the best way to represent the district, not just the extremists who are likely to bankroll their future election efforts or challenge their re-election.  That goes for both sides.  No district is 100% homogeneous, no matter how Richmond tries to gerrymander the lines.

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2014, 01:10:28 PM »
Quote
and btw....most of the ones that border jump have zero skills, and become somewhat of a burden on society as a whole

Not a requirement.

“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”

sure

just sign the guest register as you enter

immigration made this country great

we are a melting pot of nearly every race, ethnicity, religion on the planet

and we have laws regarding who can come in the front door

all i am asking is that we follow them....

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2014, 01:16:34 PM »

or to do what their district has sent them to do?


What are your thoughts on this?

If 50.2% of their district votes for the representative, should they straddle the party line to accommodate the other 49.8% who did NOT vote for them?  I would think that would be the best way to represent the district, not just the extremists who are likely to bankroll their future election efforts or challenge their re-election.  That goes for both sides.  No district is 100% homogeneous, no matter how Richmond tries to gerrymander the lines.

the discussion was about the tea party, and the posters detestment of their agenda (if we can call it that)

what i am saying, is that representatives are sent to washington (congressman/senators) by their district or state

they ran on a platform....at least most of them do

the people that voted them in knew what they stood for/didnt stand for

not raising the debt was a HUGE part of every tea partiers platform that i am aware of

you may not agree with what they did....or the way they did it

hell...i dont agree with everything they do and stand for

but using the word treasonous to describe their actions is a little over the top

which is why i asked the question

are they sent to represent their voters?
or are they sent to do what is right according to the public's outcry?

smalllife

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 978
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2014, 01:22:58 PM »

or to do what their district has sent them to do?


What are your thoughts on this?

If 50.2% of their district votes for the representative, should they straddle the party line to accommodate the other 49.8% who did NOT vote for them?  I would think that would be the best way to represent the district, not just the extremists who are likely to bankroll their future election efforts or challenge their re-election.  That goes for both sides.  No district is 100% homogeneous, no matter how Richmond tries to gerrymander the lines.

the discussion was about the tea party, and the posters detestment of their agenda (if we can call it that)

what i am saying, is that representatives are sent to washington (congressman/senators) by their district or state

they ran on a platform....at least most of them do

the people that voted them in knew what they stood for/didnt stand for

not raising the debt was a HUGE part of every tea partiers platform that i am aware of

you may not agree with what they did....or the way they did it

hell...i dont agree with everything they do and stand for

but using the word treasonous to describe their actions is a little over the top

which is why i asked the question

are they sent to represent their voters?
or are they sent to do what is right according to the public's outcry?

Please look at my quote, the treasonous comment was not mine.  I countered your question with another question since I believe they should represent their district - and in a very 50/50 state that does not mean catering to Tea Party demands when at most they can claim a tenable majority conservative district.

trailrated

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Bay Area Ca
  • a smooth sea never made a skilled sailor
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2014, 01:25:17 PM »
Seriously, though, if the government is doing something you think should not be done, and you can't manage to stop it, shouldn't you at least be somewhat happy that they're doing it ineffectually?

I actually find this point to be quite hilarious.

As a counter point I guess what is frustrating to tea party folk who want a smaller government is that they see how inefficient government is at times. Not to say that no government would be better, but I think if people saw their tax dollars spent wisely rather than wasted on bureaucratic agencies that are not well run and programs that are overlapping then they would not be opposed to the extent they are about proposed tax increases and further government reach.

Franklin

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Location: Rochester, NY
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2014, 01:25:34 PM »
Quote
and btw....most of the ones that border jump have zero skills, and become somewhat of a burden on society as a whole

Not a requirement.

“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”

sure

just sign the guest register as you enter

immigration made this country great

we are a melting pot of nearly every race, ethnicity, religion on the planet

and we have laws regarding who can come in the front door

all i am asking is that we follow them....

Then don't base your argument on their skills or language.  That's not how we all got here.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4931
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2014, 01:31:09 PM »
i resemble that remark....about older, white, libertarian guys

but i disagree on the no practical solutions

this is from a meeting a few months back

to help solve the illegals, and what to do with them, and border security

we need to have border security first....how do we get it.....we close down the majority of bases worldwide that house our military.....we leave a few open in critical areas, or as staging bases
maybe we need 5 total.....close all the rest
with the money saved, we can use those troops to secure the border, or hire agents to seal the border
i want it lethal to try and cross....a few may make it, but we wont have 800k crossing per year
we put teeth into the hiring of illegals.....first offense 500k.....second offence 1million......third offence loss of the business and all related assets
we make e-verify national and the law
for those businesses that try to continue to use illegals paying cash under the table, i dont have a solution yet....

for those here, we put together a plan to help them gain citizenship
we make it hard, but doable
and learning the language is one of the requirements
maybe it takes 7-10 years, but at the end, they become full fledge citizens

there are solutions to the problems.....no they arent easy......nor will they be palatable to all
LOL, and then you shut down the agriculture in California, skyrocking the price of produce here.  Great job.  We (those in California) need those immigrants.  A better solution would be to actually allow the NEEDED workers here with visa and come down HARD on the employers who employe outside that pool.

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2014, 01:43:42 PM »
i resemble that remark....about older, white, libertarian guys

but i disagree on the no practical solutions

this is from a meeting a few months back

to help solve the illegals, and what to do with them, and border security

we need to have border security first....how do we get it.....we close down the majority of bases worldwide that house our military.....we leave a few open in critical areas, or as staging bases
maybe we need 5 total.....close all the rest
with the money saved, we can use those troops to secure the border, or hire agents to seal the border
i want it lethal to try and cross....a few may make it, but we wont have 800k crossing per year
we put teeth into the hiring of illegals.....first offense 500k.....second offence 1million......third offence loss of the business and all related assets
we make e-verify national and the law
for those businesses that try to continue to use illegals paying cash under the table, i dont have a solution yet....

for those here, we put together a plan to help them gain citizenship
we make it hard, but doable
and learning the language is one of the requirements
maybe it takes 7-10 years, but at the end, they become full fledge citizens

there are solutions to the problems.....no they arent easy......nor will they be palatable to all
LOL, and then you shut down the agriculture in California, skyrocking the price of produce here.  Great job.  We (those in California) need those immigrants.  A better solution would be to actually allow the NEEDED workers here with visa and come down HARD on the employers who employe outside that pool.

the agriculture immigrants use a h-2a temporary visa

The H-2A program allows U.S. employers or U.S. agents who meet specific regulatory requirements to bring foreign nationals to the United States to fill temporary agricultural jobs. A U.S. employer,a U.S. agent as described in the regulations,or an association of U.S. agricultural producers named as a joint employer must file Form I-129, Petition for Nonimmigrant Worker, on a prospective worker’s behalf.

http://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-2a-agricultural-workers/h-2a-temporary-agricultural-workers

i have an acquaintance in Ca. that manages a huge farm....he brings in guys/gals twice a year for harvesting his crops

you might want to get better information if that is your argument

randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2014, 01:45:35 PM »
Can I ask a question?  This is risking a thread derail but I really don't feel like wading through google on this one.  Why are Tea Partiers so focused on illegal immigration? 

I don't actually know much about the Tea Party, other than they definitely want me out of a job (fed employee).

Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

One caveat is that the tea party can be hard to pin down. Some surveys have found them to be more educated than average and more female than male. But it seems overall the candidates they support are extremely far right Republicans. They claim to want the government to spend less money, but I've never heard one of their candidates support cutting the defense budget or social security/medicare, which combined account for about half our expenses.

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2014, 01:46:26 PM »

or to do what their district has sent them to do?


What are your thoughts on this?

If 50.2% of their district votes for the representative, should they straddle the party line to accommodate the other 49.8% who did NOT vote for them?  I would think that would be the best way to represent the district, not just the extremists who are likely to bankroll their future election efforts or challenge their re-election.  That goes for both sides.  No district is 100% homogeneous, no matter how Richmond tries to gerrymander the lines.

imo, if you are elected, it doesnt matter if the number was 50.0001 percent or 85%

you vote what you believe the majority in your district/state wants

to the winner goes the spoils

Numbers Man

  • Guest
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2014, 01:51:36 PM »
That's one way to accelerate term limits. I'm a believer of throwing the bums out because the career politician seems to only worry about number one instead of his constituents.

smalllife

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 978
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2014, 01:55:20 PM »

or to do what their district has sent them to do?


What are your thoughts on this?

If 50.2% of their district votes for the representative, should they straddle the party line to accommodate the other 49.8% who did NOT vote for them?  I would think that would be the best way to represent the district, not just the extremists who are likely to bankroll their future election efforts or challenge their re-election.  That goes for both sides.  No district is 100% homogeneous, no matter how Richmond tries to gerrymander the lines.

imo, if you are elected, it doesnt matter if the number was 50.0001 percent or 85%

you vote what you believe the majority in your district/state wants

to the winner goes the spoils

I see.

If the districts were not so obviously gerrymandered and fixed I might agree with you, since that would in turn have an electorate representative of the voters.  But as we both know that is not the case.  Many of the current districts, the 7th in particular practically disenfranchises those who are purposefully put in a district so that their vote doesn't count.  Would you be open to the redrawing of district lines by a third party?

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2014, 01:59:21 PM »
Can I ask a question?  This is risking a thread derail but I really don't feel like wading through google on this one.  Why are Tea Partiers so focused on illegal immigration? 

I don't actually know much about the Tea Party, other than they definitely want me out of a job (fed employee).

Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

One caveat is that the tea party can be hard to pin down. Some surveys have found them to be more educated than average and more female than male. But it seems overall the candidates they support are extremely far right Republicans. They claim to want the government to spend less money, but I've never heard one of their candidates support cutting the defense budget or social security/medicare, which combined account for about half our expenses.

And they're slitting their own throats with the staunch anti-immigrant stances.  Even through gdgyva claims that he would like to allow legal immigrants, the vast majority of Tea Party folks are anti-immigrant in any case.  That undercurrent runs through their tone and is felt by every non-white person in America.  With our changing demographics, well, it's going to be a rough ride for those that think they're going to "take their country back" by taking a tough stance on immigration.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4931
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2014, 01:59:56 PM »
i resemble that remark....about older, white, libertarian guys

but i disagree on the no practical solutions

this is from a meeting a few months back

to help solve the illegals, and what to do with them, and border security

we need to have border security first....how do we get it.....we close down the majority of bases worldwide that house our military.....we leave a few open in critical areas, or as staging bases
maybe we need 5 total.....close all the rest
with the money saved, we can use those troops to secure the border, or hire agents to seal the border
i want it lethal to try and cross....a few may make it, but we wont have 800k crossing per year
we put teeth into the hiring of illegals.....first offense 500k.....second offence 1million......third offence loss of the business and all related assets
we make e-verify national and the law
for those businesses that try to continue to use illegals paying cash under the table, i dont have a solution yet....

for those here, we put together a plan to help them gain citizenship
we make it hard, but doable
and learning the language is one of the requirements
maybe it takes 7-10 years, but at the end, they become full fledge citizens

there are solutions to the problems.....no they arent easy......nor will they be palatable to all
LOL, and then you shut down the agriculture in California, skyrocking the price of produce here.  Great job.  We (those in California) need those immigrants.  A better solution would be to actually allow the NEEDED workers here with visa and come down HARD on the employers who employe outside that pool.

the agriculture immigrants use a h-2a temporary visa

The H-2A program allows U.S. employers or U.S. agents who meet specific regulatory requirements to bring foreign nationals to the United States to fill temporary agricultural jobs. A U.S. employer,a U.S. agent as described in the regulations,or an association of U.S. agricultural producers named as a joint employer must file Form I-129, Petition for Nonimmigrant Worker, on a prospective worker’s behalf.

http://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-2a-agricultural-workers/h-2a-temporary-agricultural-workers

i have an acquaintance in Ca. that manages a huge farm....he brings in guys/gals twice a year for harvesting his crops

you might want to get better information if that is your argument
Most don't bring people in.  People like him are why this was proposed, yet they do not allow the amount needed, and don't hit the employers hard enough, there are still a large illegal population. 

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8433
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2014, 02:00:59 PM »
Why are Tea Partiers so focused on illegal immigration? 

Like so many questions about American politics, the answer to this one is "good old fashioned racism".

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2014, 02:01:25 PM »
depends on how impartial the third party was

the same thing happens in blue states

districts are aligned so that the conservative neighborhoods are a small minority

you really dont think ALL of california is that liberal, do you?

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2014, 02:02:10 PM »
Why are Tea Partiers so focused on illegal immigration? 

Like so many questions about American politics, the answer to this one is "good old fashioned racism".


there it is

only took 37 posts

lol

smalllife

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 978
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2014, 02:03:54 PM »
depends on how impartial the third party was

the same thing happens in blue states

districts are aligned so that the conservative neighborhoods are a small minority

you really dont think ALL of california is that liberal, do you?

I wouldn't know, I don't live in California . . . . .

trailrated

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Bay Area Ca
  • a smooth sea never made a skilled sailor
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2014, 02:05:27 PM »
Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

I consider myself to be a "tea party" person and I think you are delusional.

-I am white
-I do not feel like my power is being taken away
-I am for amnesty for illegal immigrants that are here already along with stricter border control
-I am pro gay marriage
-Saying I do not like different things like non-white skin colors is the stupidest thing I have ever heard
-I am not religious

So I guess what I am trying to say is you are as ignorant as you claim we are if you actually believe what you wrote. I will fully admit there are some crazy people on both sides of the political spectrum but trying to write off everyone is lazy, ignorant, and delusional.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4931
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2014, 02:05:39 PM »
depends on how impartial the third party was

the same thing happens in blue states

districts are aligned so that the conservative neighborhoods are a small minority

you really dont think ALL of california is that liberal, do you?

We all admit that Southern and Central California are moderate/conservative, it is just that liberals (in Ca) often live in dense space like San Fransisco and the rest of the bay area.  Also, our idea of a moderate/conservative is often more liberal that the rest of the country's conservatives.  For example, I have never met a tea partier in Northern Ca.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23224
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2014, 02:05:53 PM »
I've often thought that removing first past the post voting systems and moving more towards a better representation of democracy like representation by population would do a lot to force government to work along common lines.  As it is, a person could easily have more than 50% of the country vote for him and end up losing the election.  That's not really democracy is it?

Take three districts of 1000 people:
Party A - 0% of vote in district 1.  Party B gets 100%.
Party A - 51% of vote in district 2.  Party B gets 49%.
Party A - 51% of vote in district 3.  Party B gets 49%.

Party A has won the election!  Even though 66 percent of people didn't vote for them!

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4931
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2014, 02:07:19 PM »
Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

I consider myself to be a "tea party" person and I think you are delusional.

-I am white
-I do not feel like my power is being taken away
-I am for amnesty for illegal immigrants that are here already along with stricter border control
-I am pro gay marriage
-Saying I do not like different things like non-white skin colors is the stupidest thing I have ever heard
-I am not religious

So I guess what I am trying to say is you are as ignorant as you claim we are if you actually believe what you wrote. I will fully admit there are some crazy people on both sides of the political spectrum but trying to write off everyone is lazy, ignorant, and delusional.
I am trying to figure out WHY you would be tea partier then?  Anti-evolution?  Pro-guns?  Anti-women's choice?  What? 
ETA:  Can you name one tea-party politician who is not nuts?  Or that even agrees with you on your list?  Cause right now, all I can think of who is representing "you" are right wing crazies.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 02:12:07 PM by Gin1984 »

smalllife

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 978
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2014, 02:08:31 PM »
Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

I consider myself to be a "tea party" person and I think you are delusional.

-I am white
-I do not feel like my power is being taken away
-I am for amnesty for illegal immigrants that are here already along with stricter border control
-I am pro gay marriage
-Saying I do not like different things like non-white skin colors is the stupidest thing I have ever heard
-I am not religious

So I guess what I am trying to say is you are as ignorant as you claim we are if you actually believe what you wrote. I will fully admit there are some crazy people on both sides of the political spectrum but trying to write off everyone is lazy, ignorant, and delusional.

What in their platform appeals to you?  All of those are practically the polar opposite of what Tea Party candidates espouse and fight for when in office. . . . .

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2014, 02:09:45 PM »
Can I ask a question?  This is risking a thread derail but I really don't feel like wading through google on this one.  Why are Tea Partiers so focused on illegal immigration? 

I don't actually know much about the Tea Party, other than they definitely want me out of a job (fed employee).

Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

One caveat is that the tea party can be hard to pin down. Some surveys have found them to be more educated than average and more female than male. But it seems overall the candidates they support are extremely far right Republicans. They claim to want the government to spend less money, but I've never heard one of their candidates support cutting the defense budget or social security/medicare, which combined account for about half our expenses.

And they're slitting their own throats with the staunch anti-immigrant stances.  Even through gdgyva claims that he would like to allow legal immigrants, the vast majority of Tea Party folks are anti-immigrant in any case.  That undercurrent runs through their tone and is felt by every non-white person in America.  With our changing demographics, well, it's going to be a rough ride for those that think they're going to "take their country back" by taking a tough stance on immigration.

i cant speak for all....nor would i want to

but at the meetings/events i have attended, very few are anti immigrant

now they are anti illegal immigrant....to me that is a big difference

my wife took the oath eight years ago after coming over from Germany

I know what it takes to get here legally....i realize it isnt easy, nor cheap

But most of the people i know are not anti immigration.....they just want it done legally

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1117
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2014, 02:10:31 PM »
I understand voting out Cantor because he's a weasly little jerk that probably liked to remind his teachers that they forgot to assign homework for the weekend.     But supporting immigration reform?    I just don't get that.

I don't understand why anyone even cares about illegal immigrants, I can't think of a single instance where they affected my life beyond giving me cheaper food at a restaurant.    I haven't had a job that an illegal immigrant could take since I was in high school, and if you do, it's your fault for not going getting more training.    I've also never had an instance where I couldn't speak English, and I've been everywhere in this country.

If you're afraid of Mexican gangs, just support drug legalization.   Take the fangs away from the cobra.

gdgyva

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Washington DC
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2014, 02:10:54 PM »
Tea partiers are mostly white people who feel their power is being taken away. Illegal immigrants represent something "different". Teapartiers do not like "different" things: gays, immigrants, non-white skin colors, religions other than Christianity, etc.

I consider myself to be a "tea party" person and I think you are delusional.

-I am white
-I do not feel like my power is being taken away
-I am for amnesty for illegal immigrants that are here already along with stricter border control
-I am pro gay marriage
-Saying I do not like different things like non-white skin colors is the stupidest thing I have ever heard
-I am not religious

So I guess what I am trying to say is you are as ignorant as you claim we are if you actually believe what you wrote. I will fully admit there are some crazy people on both sides of the political spectrum but trying to write off everyone is lazy, ignorant, and delusional.

POTD......post of the day!

btw

i am white
i am not religious
i am not a gun nut
i am pro choice
i am pro marriage for all
i want small government
i hate taxes, and think they should be abolished
i think we need to stop being the world police force
my best friend is black, and he too is a conservative (fiscal)

dont believe everything you hear and read about the tea party

most of it is pure bunk
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 02:19:40 PM by gdgyva »

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: Major Upset in USA politics
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2014, 02:10:59 PM »
depends on how impartial the third party was

the same thing happens in blue states

districts are aligned so that the conservative neighborhoods are a small minority

you really dont think ALL of california is that liberal, do you?

We all admit that Southern and Central California are moderate/conservative, it is just that liberals (in Ca) often live in dense space like San Fransisco and the rest of the bay area.  Also, our idea of a moderate/conservative is often more liberal that the rest of the country's conservatives.  For example, I have never met a tea partier in Northern Ca.

California has a Citizens Redistricting Commission that is charged with drawing voting boundaries.  The politicians themselves do not do it.  It's districts are not gerrymandered because of this.

http://wedrawthelines.ca.gov/

So arguing that California is that Democratic because of gerrymandered districts doesn't make any sense.  FYI