MAGA and the Billionaires - a tale of resentment and contempt

[Captain FIRE]

Realistically we will need to cut pensions/state-funded social security. The idea that the government should be funding your retirement is ridiculous - work for it. I'm fine with some government-backed social security programme that gives people tax concessions, etc, to encourage them to save up for their own retirements, but the idea of a permanent and unconditional retirement income for doing nothing is just...strange.

Huh? It's not for doing nothing. It's for having contributed to it for years, whether SS or a state pension. As a state employee, I paid in 11% per year and had a wildly depressed salary to boot (my salary about doubled when I left for a non-profit). I'm paying 6.2%/year for SS and my employer another 6.2%. You don't work your 40 quarters/10 years, you don't get anything. This isn't UBI for merely existing.

[twinstudy]

Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.

I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.

[Herbert Derp]

I keep seeing this issue popping up on Reddit. I find it mind boggling how many people on the left are willing to adopt populist MAGA talking points straight from the mouths of Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer just because they hate Elon Musk and have to be against everything that he says.

Restricting high-skilled legal immigration in order to drive up wages and hire less competent workers hurts the country, period. It’s a classic example of populist stupidity.

[sixwings]

Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.

I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.

Uhhhhh what is this widespread pension that you get unconditionally even if you've never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life that you speak of?

Like, can you be more specific about what specific pension this is? I'm not aware of any pension that pays out benefits that the recipients don't pay into, especially one that is "widespread"...

The definition of a pension is literally this:

pen·sion
[ˈpenSHən]
noun
a regular payment made during a person's retirement from an investment fund to which that person or their employer has contributed during their working life.

[sixwings]

I keep seeing this issue popping up on Reddit. I find it mind boggling how many people on the left are willing to adopt populist MAGA talking points straight from the mouths of Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer just because they hate Elon Musk and have to be against everything that he says.

Restricting high-skilled legal immigration in order to drive up wages and hire less competent workers hurts the country, period. It’s a classic example of populist stupidity.

I think this is an area there is overlap between the two, while still supporting immigration where it's smart. Bannon isn't totally wrong, the H1B program does get abused where employers bring in cheap labor then make them work A LOT while paying them crap wages because the person is completely beholden to the company. It's modern day slavery and we should be against that kind of abuse.

Like it's clear what Musk is trying to do here, he has a lawsuit to get rid of the NLRB, as well as wanting to increase his ability to abuse cheap foreign labor that have no options in the USA. It's a race to the bottom and we should all be against that.

Bannon and Loomer however are just against it because it means non-white people coming to the country, they don't care about the abuses.

[Herbert Derp]

Bannon isn't totally wrong, the H1B program does get abused where employers bring in cheap labor then make them work A LOT while paying them crap wages because the person is completely beholden to the company. It's modern day slavery and we should be against that kind of abuse.

I think this point of view is a bunch of overblown propaganda. Indian Americans are the highest earning ethnic group in the United States. Why? Because of the H-1B program!

In my personal experience, H-1B workers are overjoyed to work in the United States and realize their dreams. They are happy to be here. They want to be here. They’ve been dreaming of coming here their entire lives. They are paid extremely well, and enjoy the best standard of living that the United States has to offer. They are absolutely not slaves.

[sixwings]

It's been pretty widely reported on for years, like here's a 60 mins investigation it in 2017, it's been a dem issue for a long time:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-h-1b-visas-have-been-abused-since-the-beginning/

Here's a more recent article from forbes"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2024/12/30/the-h-1b-visa-controversy-cheap-labor-racism-and-the-american-divide/

The Economic Policy Institute reported that a majority of H-1B workers are paid below median wages. Not only is paying employees lower wages advantageous for employers, but workers on H-1B visas may be less likely to report workplace harm and mistreatment due to fears of how the loss of an H-1B job could drastically impact their life.

here's the report:
https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage-theft-in-the-h-1b-program/

In general work visas are very needed in north america as countries face signficant demographic issues. People coming to the country to work and integrate need to be paid fairly and provided protections from employers like Musk. It's possible to be both pro-immigration and against worker abuse and exploitation.

[Herbert Derp]

I still see it as propaganda. From my point of view it’s perfectly fair to strike a deal with H-1B workers in terms of restrictive working conditions and lower wages in return for the privilege of lucrative jobs in the United States. This is a deal that immigrants are willing to make.

Indian Americans are the highest earning ethnic group in the United States. They come here willingly and are not being oppressed.

I was also subjected to similar conditions when I immigrated to my current country. It was a deal that I was willing to make.

I feel that the H-1B workers as slaves narrative is a prime example of black and white leftist victim mentality which forces one to view everything in terms of oppressors and victims. I look at the same scenario and see a win-win deal where each side is freely making a trade.

[twinstudy]

I keep seeing this issue popping up on Reddit. I find it mind boggling how many people on the left are willing to adopt populist MAGA talking points straight from the mouths of Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer just because they hate Elon Musk and have to be against everything that he says.

Restricting high-skilled legal immigration in order to drive up wages and hire less competent workers hurts the country, period. It’s a classic example of populist stupidity.

It's because a lot of people don't truly want the best worker to get the job, nor do they like the idea of actual competition. That's why they call it the "American dream" and not the "global dream". They want everyone in society to get paid a half-arsed wage. They don't want the unskilled workers to get paid the dregs they'd get in a market system and they don't want superstars smashing it and earning $500k or $1m a year on talent alone. So they want a system that reduces outliers...and part of that is restricting migration of all types.

By definition, anything that's populist is likely to be wrong-headed.

[twinstudy]

Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.

I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.

Uhhhhh what is this widespread pension that you get unconditionally even if you've never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life that you speak of?

Like, can you be more specific about what specific pension this is? I'm not aware of any pension that pays out benefits that the recipients don't pay into, especially one that is "widespread"...

The definition of a pension is literally this:

pen·sion
[ˈpenSHən]
noun
a regular payment made during a person's retirement from an investment fund to which that person or their employer has contributed during their working life.

I should clarify that I'm Australian, and here every asshole gets a pension on turning 67, unless of course you've done well enough for yourself that you have a steady retirement income of your own (or sufficient assets such as investment property or shares), in which case, you get no pension. Talk about a perverse outcome. It's extremely costly and taxpayers are forced to essentially fund a nest-egg/free inheritance transfer scheme (to subsequent generations) for the middle class.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

I keep seeing this issue popping up on Reddit. I find it mind boggling how many people on the left are willing to adopt populist MAGA talking points straight from the mouths of Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer just because they hate Elon Musk and have to be against everything that he says.

Restricting high-skilled legal immigration in order to drive up wages and hire less competent workers hurts the country, period. It’s a classic example of populist stupidity.

It's because a lot of people don't truly want the best worker to get the job, nor do they like the idea of actual competition. That's why they call it the "American dream" and not the "global dream". They want everyone in society to get paid a half-arsed wage. They don't want the unskilled workers to get paid the dregs they'd get in a market system and they don't want superstars smashing it and earning $500k or $1m a year on talent alone. So they want a system that reduces outliers...and part of that is restricting migration of all types.

By definition, anything that's populist is likely to be wrong-headed.

Who is "they" you mentioned repeatedly?

When I've interviewed people, I always want the best person for the job, because I have to work with them.  I don't follow who would have an incentive to deliberately hire incompetent people ("don't truly want the best worker to get the job").

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Realistically we will need to cut pensions/state-funded social security. The idea that the government should be funding your retirement is ridiculous - work for it. I'm fine with some government-backed social security programme that gives people tax concessions, etc, to encourage them to save up for their own retirements, but the idea of a permanent and unconditional retirement income for doing nothing is just...strange.

In the U.S., this can't happen.  People over age 65, collecting social security, are the largest voting block.  They are also the most consistent voters.  A politician who suggests eliminating social security will not be re-elected, as the largest voting block will make sure of it.

Separately from that, social security is mostly from people who pay into the program.  Every paycheck, social security tax is withdrawn.  But for those who make more than a certain amount ($125k?), the upper portion of their income isn't taxed.  So one proposal is to increase the range where social security tax applies.

[sonofsven]

I am strongly in favor of increasing H-1B quotas and legal immigration. It will make the United States stronger.

...

Following this line of thought, the best way forward to keep the lid on American wages for highly skilled workers would be to continue to wreck public education ...

You brought up things not discussed in that post (keep the kid on wages, wreck public education), followed by saying how much you dislike the things you just brought up.  Do you even need to quote someone's post, when your thoughts have nothing to do with theirs?

What do you think happens to Americans tech wages with an increase in H1-B visas: they go up?

[reeshau]

I keep seeing this issue popping up on Reddit. I find it mind boggling how many people on the left are willing to adopt populist MAGA talking points straight from the mouths of Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer just because they hate Elon Musk and have to be against everything that he says.

Restricting high-skilled legal immigration in order to drive up wages and hire less competent workers hurts the country, period. It’s a classic example of populist stupidity.

It's because a lot of people don't truly want the best worker to get the job, nor do they like the idea of actual competition. That's why they call it the "American dream" and not the "global dream". They want everyone in society to get paid a half-arsed wage. They don't want the unskilled workers to get paid the dregs they'd get in a market system and they don't want superstars smashing it and earning $500k or $1m a year on talent alone. So they want a system that reduces outliers...and part of that is restricting migration of all types.

By definition, anything that's populist is likely to be wrong-headed.

Who is "they" you mentioned repeatedly?

When I've interviewed people, I always want the best person for the job, because I have to work with them.  I don't follow who would have an incentive to deliberately hire incompetent people ("don't truly want the best worker to get the job").

I have to say, many people in a UAW plant I formerly worked in had exactly this attitude.  They believed the company was immortal, and had an attitude of milking the cow for all it was worth.  Newer people who worked extra hard or tried to introduce efficiencies that conflicted with work definitions were harassed and resisted.

Here is a real example:  as we moved to computer-controlled equipment in the 1990's, the electricians in the plant argued that any engineer working on them had to have an electrician present.  The argument hung on the fact that when the work rules were set, an engineer would design the controls of the system, and an electrician would wire the relays to enact it.  Some reduced this "execution" work to hitting the Enter key when the engineer was done programming.  The electricians had no skill nor aptitude for software, nor did they want the responsibility for design; they just wanted their cut.

The plant is a parking lot now, along with many others.  And many lament the end of their way of life.  I am very sad for the overall state of that city, but good riddance to that mentality, which was leading the way in the race to the bottom.

[swashbucklinstache]

I still see it as propaganda. From my point of view it’s perfectly fair to strike a deal with H-1B workers in terms of restrictive working conditions and lower wages in return for the privilege of lucrative jobs in the United States. This is a deal that immigrants are willing to make.

Indian Americans are the highest earning ethnic group in the United States. They come here willingly and are not being oppressed.

I was also subjected to similar conditions when I immigrated to my current country. It was a deal that I was willing to make.

I feel that the H-1B workers as slaves narrative is a prime example of black and white leftist victim mentality which forces one to view everything in terms of oppressors and victims. I look at the same scenario and see a win-win deal where each side is freely making a trade.

The practical side of me asks if you're getting the top 1% or just the top 1% of immigrants willing to make that trade. The theoretical side of me is saddened to read that complaining about rules of engagement being worse than they might otherwise be is "leftist victim mentality." To be extreme, people from Syria would happily accept 50 lashes a day for an H1B but that doesn't mean setting it up that way is the best for society.

I agree with the conclusion in an earlier statement you made that talent is a numbers game but we mustn't forget that distributions are not the same. For a simplistic example, China and India are nowhere near dominant in international soccer.

Were I king I'd increase all manners of talent immigration with a pathway to citizenship for all. Mind, I'm as much a king as I am an economist.

[sixwings]

I still see it as propaganda. From my point of view it’s perfectly fair to strike a deal with H-1B workers in terms of restrictive working conditions and lower wages in return for the privilege of lucrative jobs in the United States. This is a deal that immigrants are willing to make.

Indian Americans are the highest earning ethnic group in the United States. They come here willingly and are not being oppressed.

I was also subjected to similar conditions when I immigrated to my current country. It was a deal that I was willing to make.

I feel that the H-1B workers as slaves narrative is a prime example of black and white leftist victim mentality which forces one to view everything in terms of oppressors and victims. I look at the same scenario and see a win-win deal where each side is freely making a trade.

It's definitely not just propaganda, H1B abuse is pretty rampant, particularly in tech. This has been an issue for Dems for a very long time while republicans were all like "it's the free market baby need the top talents". Ending H1B abuse and using immigration to attract top talent is something dems should support, decreasing H1B over protectionist fears is not something that should be supported. However Musk is not wanting to end H1B abuse, he wants to more of it. So Dems shouldn't support what he wants.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

I am strongly in favor of increasing H-1B quotas and legal immigration. It will make the United States stronger.

...

Following this line of thought, the best way forward to keep the lid on American wages for highly skilled workers would be to continue to wreck public education ...

You brought up things not discussed in that post (keep the kid on wages, wreck public education), followed by saying how much you dislike the things you just brought up.  Do you even need to quote someone's post, when your thoughts have nothing to do with theirs?

What do you think happens to Americans tech wages with an increase in H1-B visas: they go up?

If you spit in the ocean, do sea levels rise?

"The H-1B visa is extremely tech focused, with total software developers making up 38% of all applications."
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-data-behind-americas-h-1b-visa-program/

Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S.  Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business.  They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.

Tech companies have already shifted lots of software engineering work outside the U.S.  Look at software companies like Google and Microsoft, which have offices in dozens of countries.  To keep growing, they had to hire local talent locally.  In my opinion, that shifting of work abroad probably has done more to slow the growth of salaries than the number of H-1B visas.

https://www.google.com/about/careers/applications/locations/
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/worldwide

[PeteD01]

I am strongly in favor of increasing H-1B quotas and legal immigration. It will make the United States stronger.

...

Following this line of thought, the best way forward to keep the lid on American wages for highly skilled workers would be to continue to wreck public education ...

You brought up things not discussed in that post (keep the kid on wages, wreck public education), followed by saying how much you dislike the things you just brought up.  Do you even need to quote someone's post, when your thoughts have nothing to do with theirs?

What do you think happens to Americans tech wages with an increase in H1-B visas: they go up?

If you spit in the ocean, do sea levels rise?

"The H-1B visa is extremely tech focused, with total software developers making up 38% of all applications."
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-data-behind-americas-h-1b-visa-program/

Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S.  Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business.  They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.

Tech companies have already shifted lots of software engineering work outside the U.S.  Look at software companies like Google and Microsoft, which have offices in dozens of countries.  To keep growing, they had to hire local talent locally.  In my opinion, that shifting of work abroad probably has done more to slow the growth of salaries than the number of H-1B visas.

https://www.google.com/about/careers/applications/locations/
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/worldwide

Well, I guess there is nothing to see here - but if it were such a nothingburger, I wonder why Musk is getting so agitated about it.
Must be because at least Tesla is increasing H-1B hires and Musk and others want to greatly expand the program.

Fact is that H-1B is a non-immigrant visa with the authorization to reside and work in the US contingent on ongoing employment with the sponsoring employer.
This gives the sponsor leverage over the employee that the employer does not have over American workers (notwithstanding the 60 days grace period to find another sponsor after termination of employment).

The H-1B visa program thus provides a workforce with limited recourse in the face of coercion.

That H-1B visa holders are only a small part of the entire workforce doesn't mean that the effect of their availability is not felt when it comes to hiring decisions and salary negotiations.
In any case, the presence of coercible foreign labor with limited rights hurts American workers and is not acceptable.

The non-immigrant H-1B visa needs to be eliminated and replaced by immigrant visas, and temporary work visas that are not tied to ongoing employment with a sponsor, in order to break the forced loyalty the H-1B visa imposes.

The overall effect of the H-1B program and its expansion is offshoring of higher education and onshoring of coercible foreign labor and this needs to stop.

Tesla joins top H-1B employers list as Musk pushes for reforms to expand visa program
ET OnlineLast Updated: Jan 02, 2025

Musk, who himself worked in the US on an H-1B visa early in his career, has become one of the most vocal supporters of the program, which allows US companies to hire foreign workers for skilled positions. "I'm in America along with so many critical people who built SpaceX, Tesla and hundreds of other companies that made America strong because of H-1B," Musk posted on his social media platform X.

Tesla's rise on the H-1B list follows a broader trend in the tech industry, where companies have long advocated for expanding the number of H-1B visas granted by the US government. The program, which is capped at 65,000 new visas annually, with an additional 20,000 available for workers holding advanced degrees, has been a critical pathway for skilled workers, particularly from countries like India, China, and the Philippines.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nri/work/tesla-joins-top-h-1b-employers-list-as-musk-pushes-for-reforms-to-expand-visa-program/articleshow/116846682.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

[Scandium]

I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?

It's rare that I see this much wild conjecture, sweeping generalizations, assumptions and piles of straw men in a single post!
Do you have a source for.... any of this?

Yes. Elite gymnastics requires 20-30 hours of training per week, according to the official USA Gymnastics organization.
Source: https://usagym.org/men/pathways/usag-elite-track/#:~:text=The%20focus%20of%20the%20Elite,20%20%E2%80%93%2030%20hours%20per%20week
Simone Biles' gym has its own school for athletes with 4 hours of instruction a day, including lunch. It has 2 teachers total for its middle and high school program, and offers no AP classes. But I'm sure this is as good as it gets as far as homeschooling full-time athletes goes. Source: https://www.academyatwcc.com/classes/7-12-lit-ss-sci-math

Parents spend $10k-20k per year on a kid who plays hockey. Source: https://thehockeythinktank.com/the-costs-of-aaa-hockey/
Canadian boys who play hockey each have a 0.025% chance of getting drafted into the NHL. Source: https://www.hockeycanada.ca/en-ca/news/2003-gn-001-en

A ballet education costs $120,000 in 2015 dollars, or around $158,800 in today's dollars. Ballet students train around 20 hours a week, 6 out of 7 days.
Sources: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/high-price-of-ballet-diversity-misty-copeland/
https://cpyb.org/what-is-a-pre-professional-dancer/#:~:text=Pre%2Dprofessional%20dancers%20dedicate%20several%20hours%20a%20day%2C%20often%20six%20days%20a%20week%2C%20to%20rigorous%20training%20that
https://balletscoop.com/2011/08/03/is-my-class-schedule-pre-professional/

Meanwhile, starting ballerinas earn $20k-60k a year, and that $60k is probably in an expensive city. Source: https://danceivy.com/blogs/news/ballerina-salary-range-beyond-the-stage
Yet so many people want to be professional ballerinas that there are about 100 applicants per job opening. Source: https://www.balletscout.info/blogs/navigating-ballet-auditions-and-jobs-in-an-evolving-competitive-job-market-none/#:~:text=A%20Highly%20Competitive%20Field&text=This%20is%20especially%20true%20for,for%20a%20handful%20of%20positions.

Oh, and dancers retire from their professional careers around age 38. Source: https://datapointesguide.com/generalretirement
The age retirement age for the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc. is much younger too, with the average NFL career being around 3 years long.

Ok sure, and...? Expensive and intense athletics exists. No surprise? Does everyone do this? Do even 1% of kids do this?

My issues was with:

"most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world."

[citation needed]

"They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week "

Who are "they"? I know a few dozen parents, the most extreme do 3 hrs/week of athletics.

"But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity"

Who does? Most, all? 5%? Based on what?

How do you know most parents look up to athletes and/or "popular" people? What is this based on? Are you sure there isn't at least an equal number of parents/kids who (quietly) strive to do well in STEM fields, get into MIT, Stanford etc? Who look up to titans in tech industry, programmers at Google with $250k starting salaries, people who make an app in they 20s and sell it for a gazillion dollars? Nobody looks up to this? Is there a survey that shows a majority of parents would be disappointed if their children become doctors, lawyers or engineers, rather than trying to playing professional basketball? I'm sure some/a few do, but can you tell me how many parents are working on getting their kids to become pros in the NBA, NFL etc?

And pretty misleading to talk about "kids", then cite numbers for people who work to become professional ballet dancers. (and per your link it's "only" 10-15 hr/week up to age 15..). That's not some kids doing afterschool activities, that' the most extreme of the extreme. How many kids are we talking about who do that?
Quick google tells me there are 6,363 students at ballet schools in the US. If we just assume that 1% of all who try to go to ballet school actually do (no idea what actual number is), that means 636,300 kids do this intense 12-20 hr/week regimen. Out of 73,6 M kids in the US, that means 0.865%. Sorry, i won't accept extrapolating from <1% to say that "parents" sign their kids up for 20 hrs a week, as if that's in any way the norm!

And by the way, many surveys of kids about what they want to do when they grow up is topped by things like "youtuber/influencer" and "esports". Hardly the realm of (traditional) athletics!

[Herbert Derp]

Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S.  Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business.  They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.

This isn’t entirely accurate. Top tech companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have well over 50% of their tech workforce as H-1B or former H-1B. US citizens are a minority there. It’s the smaller, less selective companies that mostly hire US citizens.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/

[reeshau]

Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S.  Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business.  They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.

This isn’t entirely accurate. Top tech companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have well over 50% of their tech workforce as H-1B or former H-1B. US citizens are a minority there. It’s the smaller, less selective companies that mostly hire US citizens.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/

Right; the quoted number is annual visas.  They can last up to 6 years.

And I see 29.5 + 11.4 + 8.5 + 7.2 + 1.9 = 58.5% of applications are software types, so 161k a year, up to 965k at any one time.  So, nearly 1 in 4, nationally.

[Poundwise]

Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.

I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.

How about stay at home parents and caregivers?

I disagree, this kind of attitude leads to seniors on the streets. If you want that kind of society there are plenty of countries with them, you don't need to transform the US to find one.

[twinstudy]

Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.

I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.

How about stay at home parents and caregivers?

I disagree, this kind of attitude leads to seniors on the streets. If you want that kind of society there are plenty of countries with them, you don't need to transform the US to find one.

Anyone giving care to an elderly or disabled person should get a government allowance, but that's a specific carers' allowance, not an unconditional allowance.

Stay at home parents (of children) - I struggle to see how this would be relevant at retirement age.

[Scandium]

Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.

I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.

How about stay at home parents and caregivers?

I disagree, this kind of attitude leads to seniors on the streets. If you want that kind of society there are plenty of countries with them, you don't need to transform the US to find one.

Anyone giving care to an elderly or disabled person should get a government allowance, but that's a specific carers' allowance, not an unconditional allowance.

Stay at home parents (of children) - I struggle to see how this would be relevant at retirement age.

You struggle to see how someone who dedicate years of their lives to raising the country's future doesn't deserve to live on the street in the their old age?... Maybe that's a you problem

[twinstudy]

Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.

I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.

How about stay at home parents and caregivers?

I disagree, this kind of attitude leads to seniors on the streets. If you want that kind of society there are plenty of countries with them, you don't need to transform the US to find one.

Anyone giving care to an elderly or disabled person should get a government allowance, but that's a specific carers' allowance, not an unconditional allowance.

Stay at home parents (of children) - I struggle to see how this would be relevant at retirement age.

You struggle to see how someone who dedicate years of their lives to raising the country's future doesn't deserve to live on the street in the their old age?... Maybe that's a you problem

It's not like it's impossible to work/save for retirement while having a kid. And even if you spend, say, 6 years of your life out of the workforce entirely to raise a child to primary school age, that still leaves about 35-40 years of working life. Hell, let's be generous and say that you're such a dedicated parent that you spend 12 years of your life out of the workforce entirely and you have 2 non concurrent children so that's 24 years taken out of the workforce. You still have 23 years to work and save for retirement.

There could also be a safety net allowance given to anyone in the situation you described who can demonstrate that he or she has no assets and no income. That would still be far cheaper than the unconditional pension that my country gives people even if they have substantial assets and every capability to pay for their own retirement out of their savings and their home equity.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S.  Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business.  They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.

This isn’t entirely accurate. Top tech companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have well over 50% of their tech workforce as H-1B or former H-1B. US citizens are a minority there. It’s the smaller, less selective companies that mostly hire US citizens.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/

My point was their overall contribution is small, while you're focusing on the big tech vs small company split.  Google and Apple hired the most in 2018 (the date of your article), a combined 4,500 out of the 25,000 total (my estimate, 38% of 65k).  I believe those top tech companies pay the highest salaries, so I'm not sure how this addresses the point I brought up.  The highest paid salaries are at companies that make the most use of H-1B visas, so H-1B visas aren't the key factor in lower salaries.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S.  Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business.  They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.

This isn’t entirely accurate. Top tech companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have well over 50% of their tech workforce as H-1B or former H-1B. US citizens are a minority there. It’s the smaller, less selective companies that mostly hire US citizens.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/

Right; the quoted number is annual visas.  They can last up to 6 years.

And I see 29.5 + 11.4 + 8.5 + 7.2 + 1.9 = 58.5% of applications are software types, so 161k a year, up to 965k at any one time.  So, nearly 1 in 4, nationally.

Where are you getting these numbers?

"161k a year" is not possible for H-1B visas, which are limited to 65k/year:

"Congress set the current annual regular cap for the H-1B category at 65,000."
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations/h-1b-cap-season

[Herbert Derp]

My point was their overall contribution is small, while you're focusing on the big tech vs small company split.  Google and Apple hired the most in 2018 (the date of your article), a combined 4,500 out of the 25,000 total (my estimate, 38% of 65k).  I believe those top tech companies pay the highest salaries, so I'm not sure how this addresses the point I brought up.  The highest paid salaries are at companies that make the most use of H-1B visas, so H-1B visas aren't the key factor in lower salaries.

The point I’m making is that the DOGE people who represent big tech have a point in this debate, which is that elite tech companies heavily rely on H-1Bs to source top talent. And it’s the elite tech companies that make the United States strong, disproportionate to the small companies.

[reeshau]

Those 25,000 software engineers using H-1B visas add just 0.6% to the existing pool of 4.4 million software engineers in the U.S.  Tech companies aren't relying on this trickle of critical talent to grow their business.  They are growing at double digits, not fractions of 1%.

This isn’t entirely accurate. Top tech companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have well over 50% of their tech workforce as H-1B or former H-1B. US citizens are a minority there. It’s the smaller, less selective companies that mostly hire US citizens.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens-make-up-nearly-three-quarters-of-silicon-valley-tech-workforce-report-says/

Right; the quoted number is annual visas.  They can last up to 6 years.

And I see 29.5 + 11.4 + 8.5 + 7.2 + 1.9 = 58.5% of applications are software types, so 161k a year, up to 965k at any one time.  So, nearly 1 in 4, nationally.

Where are you getting these numbers?

"161k a year" is not possible for H-1B visas, which are limited to 65k/year:

"Congress set the current annual regular cap for the H-1B category at 65,000."
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations/h-1b-cap-season

Now that I go back and look, I think I was looking at applications, not grants.  So my bad.

I still stand by my point that they last up to 6 years, so the working number (compared to total working software types) is a multiple of that.

The total is actually 85,000.  There are 20,000 additionally reserved for applicants who received a master's degree from a US university.

[swashbucklinstache]

My point was their overall contribution is small, while you're focusing on the big tech vs small company split.  Google and Apple hired the most in 2018 (the date of your article), a combined 4,500 out of the 25,000 total (my estimate, 38% of 65k).  I believe those top tech companies pay the highest salaries, so I'm not sure how this addresses the point I brought up.  The highest paid salaries are at companies that make the most use of H-1B visas, so H-1B visas aren't the key factor in lower salaries.

The point I’m making is that the DOGE people who represent big tech have a point in this debate, which is that elite tech companies heavily rely on H-1Bs to source top talent. And it’s the elite tech companies that make the United States strong, disproportionate to the small companies.

The article you linked says foreign-born not H1B. There's like 13 million green card holders in the US. That same article says that most H1Bs are taken by outsourcing companies from India.

There's just not enough H1Bs today to say anything like big tech dominance relies heavily on this group nor that they have a huge impact on America as a whole. Plenty of research suggests employers hire H1Bs then underpay and overwork them which hurts all employees and lowers wages. Seriously, read the criticisms section of the wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa

So we're left with: why does DOGE want more people to come to America on H1B vs. another method? All of these big tech companies have international offices and can bypass H1b for their very strong performer to begin with so why not start there. https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-first-preference-eb-1

Reminder that I say that as someone in favor of more immigration of every variety, including H1B.

[Scandium]

Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.

I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.

How about stay at home parents and caregivers?

I disagree, this kind of attitude leads to seniors on the streets. If you want that kind of society there are plenty of countries with them, you don't need to transform the US to find one.

Anyone giving care to an elderly or disabled person should get a government allowance, but that's a specific carers' allowance, not an unconditional allowance.

Stay at home parents (of children) - I struggle to see how this would be relevant at retirement age.

You struggle to see how someone who dedicate years of their lives to raising the country's future doesn't deserve to live on the street in the their old age?... Maybe that's a you problem

It's not like it's impossible to work/save for retirement while having a kid. And even if you spend, say, 6 years of your life out of the workforce entirely to raise a child to primary school age, that still leaves about 35-40 years of working life. Hell, let's be generous and say that you're such a dedicated parent that you spend 12 years of your life out of the workforce entirely and you have 2 non concurrent children so that's 24 years taken out of the workforce. You still have 23 years to work and save for retirement.

There could also be a safety net allowance given to anyone in the situation you described who can demonstrate that he or she has no assets and no income. That would still be far cheaper than the unconditional pension that my country gives people even if they have substantial assets and every capability to pay for their own retirement out of their savings and their home equity.

Well, that's basically how it is. If you have no assets/income, even if you haven't worked you get SSI. A whole $770/month!
https://www.greemantoomey.com/you-can-collect-social-security-benefits-even-if-youve-never-worked/#:~:text=Although%20many%20of%20the%20programs,Supplemental%20Security%20Income%20(SSI).

And from my limited understanding, most (civilized) countries have such a system where old people with nothing get some money regardless, so they don't die on the streets. Which is reasonable in my opinion, but you can disagree if you want. Quite a few on the right do. But in general we as a society have decided we're ok with this system (for now..), to prevent elderly in destitute poverty, as was common before social security existed.

I think you said you're in Australia? From my google this is what is says, there is an asset/income test. Its not "unconditional".
"Age Pension, which is a government payment available to Australians who are 67 years or older, meet residency requirements, and pass an income and assets test, regardless of their work history"
https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/who-can-get-age-pension?context=22526

[twinstudy]

The problem with Australia's assets and income test is that the primary place of residence is completely exempted, so you can sit on a $2m house and not have to use any of that equity and still get a full pension (you and your spouse both).

Even that aside, you can have hundreds of thousands in liquid assets (PLUS the family home) and still get a full pension. That shit needs to be reined in. Use up your assets, then you can get government support. Otherwise I am paying taxes so that millionaires can transmit their houses to their kids, tax free, on death.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

My point was their overall contribution is small, while you're focusing on the big tech vs small company split.  Google and Apple hired the most in 2018 (the date of your article), a combined 4,500 out of the 25,000 total (my estimate, 38% of 65k).  I believe those top tech companies pay the highest salaries, so I'm not sure how this addresses the point I brought up.  The highest paid salaries are at companies that make the most use of H-1B visas, so H-1B visas aren't the key factor in lower salaries.

The point I’m making is that the DOGE people who represent big tech have a point in this debate, which is that elite tech companies heavily rely on H-1Bs to source top talent. And it’s the elite tech companies that make the United States strong, disproportionate to the small companies.

The article you linked says foreign-born not H1B. There's like 13 million green card holders in the US. That same article says that most H1Bs are taken by outsourcing companies from India.

There's just not enough H1Bs today to say anything like big tech dominance relies heavily on this group nor that they have a huge impact on America as a whole. Plenty of research suggests employers hire H1Bs then underpay and overwork them which hurts all employees and lowers wages. Seriously, read the criticisms section of the wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa

So we're left with: why does DOGE want more people to come to America on H1B vs. another method? All of these big tech companies have international offices and can bypass H1b for their very strong performer to begin with so why not start there. https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-first-preference-eb-1

Reminder that I say that as someone in favor of more immigration of every variety, including H1B.

One paper from over 20 years ago isn't "plenty of research", in my view.  That wikipedia page cites frofessor Norman Matloff's criticisms, and link to the following paper from April 2003.
https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/H1BSummary.pdf

Is there other evidence of unfair labor practices with H-1B visa holders?

[swashbucklinstache]

My point was their overall contribution is small, while you're focusing on the big tech vs small company split.  Google and Apple hired the most in 2018 (the date of your article), a combined 4,500 out of the 25,000 total (my estimate, 38% of 65k).  I believe those top tech companies pay the highest salaries, so I'm not sure how this addresses the point I brought up.  The highest paid salaries are at companies that make the most use of H-1B visas, so H-1B visas aren't the key factor in lower salaries.

The point I’m making is that the DOGE people who represent big tech have a point in this debate, which is that elite tech companies heavily rely on H-1Bs to source top talent. And it’s the elite tech companies that make the United States strong, disproportionate to the small companies.

The article you linked says foreign-born not H1B. There's like 13 million green card holders in the US. That same article says that most H1Bs are taken by outsourcing companies from India.

There's just not enough H1Bs today to say anything like big tech dominance relies heavily on this group nor that they have a huge impact on America as a whole. Plenty of research suggests employers hire H1Bs then underpay and overwork them which hurts all employees and lowers wages. Seriously, read the criticisms section of the wikipedia page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa

So we're left with: why does DOGE want more people to come to America on H1B vs. another method? All of these big tech companies have international offices and can bypass H1b for their very strong performer to begin with so why not start there. https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-first-preference-eb-1

Reminder that I say that as someone in favor of more immigration of every variety, including H1B.

One paper from over 20 years ago isn't "plenty of research", in my view.  That wikipedia page cites frofessor Norman Matloff's criticisms, and link to the following paper from April 2003.
https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/H1BSummary.pdf

Is there other evidence of unfair labor practices with H-1B visa holders?

There's subheadings under criticism on that page that might not have popped out.

On wages

Wage depression
Wage depression as a result of an increased supply of discounted guest workers is a chronic complaint critics have about the H-1B program. In the 21st century, labor experts have found that guest workers are abundantly available in times of wage decline and weak workforce demand.[177]

The Economic Policy Institute found that sixty percent of certified H-1B positions were below the local median wage. In Washington D.C, companies hiring a level 1 entry-level H-1B software developer received a discount of 36%, or $41,746. For level II workers, companies received a discount of 18%, or $20,863.[189]

In 2014, The Department of Homeland Security annual report indicates that H-1B workers in the field of Computer Science are paid a mean salary of $75,000 annually, almost 25,000 dollars below the average annual income for software developers [190] and studies have found that H-1B workers are paid significantly less than U.S. workers.[191][192] It is claimed that the H-1B program is primarily used as a source of cheap labor.[193][194][195][196][197][198][199]

I'm ignorant on immigration but here were some things I read as I had a fun day googling around on this.

one of those sources to call out about wages, I think 189 above. {California Attorney General’s former senior advisor on immigration and labor}
https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/

I read this as criticizing the impact on wage and job mobility.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4010152

This look at accounting data says H1Bs get paid 10% less but no negative impact to wages for others.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10551-024-05823-8

old. https://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/articles/2005/back1305.pdf

The Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), a group critical of expanding the visa, claims that H-1B workers in Information Technology (IT) related occupations are paid approximately thirteen thousand dollars less than American workers, and that the H-1B program is little more than a source of cheap labor.

Referencing the body shop problem, why half of the top H1B holding companies have been Indian outsourcing shops for 30 years...

The Indian Minister of Commerce has dubbed the H-1B visa the “outsourcing visa.

Elsewhere there were anecdotes from tech executives anonymously saying they want these body shops.

This 2023 paper by a longtime prominent cabinet member republican offers a pretty damning review of how and why companies use H1B. I guess it is comforting that things haven't changed since the 1990s. A lot of interesting history about previous temporary increases to H1B visa and OPT numbers in an earlier tech boom.
https://cis.org/Fishman/DHSs-OPT-Rule-Contempt-Congress-American-Workers-and-American-Students

A follow-up published two days ago brought out these key points from Trump round 1's DHS.

[The H-1B program has had an] adverse effect on similarly employed U.S.
 workers... downward pressure on wages in industries and occupations with concentrations of relatively lower-paid H-1B workers.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2020-11-02/pdf/2020-24259.pdf

This was why Trump round 1 criticized H1b as a method for Silicon Valley to pay lower wages.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-h-1b_b_5890d86ce4b0522c7d3d84af

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2021-01-08/pdf/2021-00183.pdf
[Level 1 and 2] salaries … are significantly lower than local median salaries — typically 20 to 40 percent lower than the median. H-1B employers can reap significant savings by selecting one of the two lowest wage levels. … Major U.S.-based technology firms that hire H-1B workers directly … had significant shares of their certified H-1B positions assigned as Level 1 or Level 2 … in fiscal 2019…

Amazon and Microsoft each had three-fourths or more of their H-1B positions assigned as Level 1 or Level 2.

Walmart and Uber had roughly half of their H-1B positions assigned as Level 1 or Level 2.

IBM had three-fifths of its H-1B positions assigned as Level 1 or Level 2.

Qualcomm and Salesforce had two-fifths of their H-1B positions assigned as Level 1 or Level 2.

Google had over one-half assigned as Level 2.

Apple had one-third of its H-1B positions assigned as Level 2.

Firms appear to systematically misclassify prevailing wage skill levels by selecting levels far below the actual skills (education and experience) of the worker and/or duties of the position. … For example, the San Jose Mercury News published analysis showing that Uber Technologies assigned Level 2 wages to positions it described as “senior software engineer” even though DOL guidance recommends a minimum of Level 3.

It just goes on and on about the wage aspect. It seems clear H1B holders get paid less. It seems overwhelmingly clear that firms want these employees so they can pay them less not because they are the best and the brightest.

Without wading into wider conversation about capitalism, I wouldn't begrudge people on one end of the spectrum feeling that wage is part of worker conditions. There's probably people who think these jobs could go to Americans and are mad they don't. Others would just ask why not increase supply of workers, and I'd agree with them. I just can't understand why do we want more of these temporary workers instead of increasing how many can be permanent ones? As it is we're essentially letting privately owned US companies sell the right to live and work in America for a few years. Why not go actually go after the best and brightest through increasing EB-1 numbers?

This paper would tie wages directly to worker conditions for H1b holders, in my layman read. I'm inferring can use wage as a worker condition once you see how it changes just like worker conditions do under various circumstances.
https://ecommons.luc.edu/business_facpubs/218/

I can't access this but imagine it might too, though I'm not sure I care much about a law student's paper.
https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/hastlj74&div=18&id=&page=

On worker conditions
I'll stay away from the word 'fair.' 

This is specifically about H1Bs in tech, but seems more about arbitration and workers rights, highlighting that H1Bs are theoretically vulnerable. I don't think this says much than they think H1B can be better than it is now, not otherwise for or against a cap. This doesn't speak directly to observed bad worker conditions.
https://scholarlycommons.law.cwsl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1718&context=cwlr

{2017}https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2827789

The article argues that even perfect enforcement of existing law will not eliminate H-1B worker exploitation because the program includes systemic inequalities and subordinating structures that are modern manifestations of involuntary servitude, debt bondage and unfree labor. The unfree system of labor created by the guest worker program is based in the ways in which threats of deportation and liquidated damages prevent workers from complaining or quitting; the way in which the visa sponsor's control of the guest worker's labor parallels antebellum slave codes; the commodification of immigrant workers as part of the human supply chain; and the lack of citizenship rights guaranteed to these guest workers.

I can't access that article so can't really speak to it, but it does seem they're looking at data instead of just weighing in theoretically. I'm not a lawyer.

The article provides a comprehensive survey of lawsuits brought under the visa laws for prevailing wage violations, wage theft, benching, and liquidated damages. It also discusses lawsuits brought as independent causes of action under state tort and contract law; the TVPA; RICO; and employment discrimination statutes.

From the wikipedia page

Some workers who come to the U.S. on H-1B visas receive poor, unfair, and illegal treatment by brokers who place them with jobs in the US, according to a report published in 2014.[207][208]

[207] and [208] are investigative journalism. So, between a study and anecdata maybe?
https://www.wired.com/2014/11/investigation-reveals-silicon-valleys-abuse-immigrant-tech-workers/
https://revealnews.org/article/job-brokers-steal-wages-entrap-indian-tech-workers-in-us/

This paper, in my layman opinion, offers a nuanced discussion of how America's laws and enforcement change only over decades through a discussion of H1B's employment rights via legal anecdata. I thought this was super interesting.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/lapo.12213

more anecdata, I guess, but I only link this to say that I don't think articles like this have much place in a discussion of increasing H1b or not or other visa categories. It is brutal. It provides evidence of exploitation. It is more about implementation and enforcement and a vote for streamlining things which is always good.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/editorials/2013/06/11/your-child-teacher-victim-human-trafficking/dQz2fYPwg6Xkgt1aV6HaiL/story.html

Overall I'm not really able to find much non-wage pieces other than anecdata. There is a lot of it. Maybe it's just hard to do studies on this so people default to theory or anecdata?

Just found these interesting.
From the Secretary of labor in 1995, emphasis mine

...what was conceived as a means to meet temporary business needs for unique, highly skilled professionals from abroad is, in fact, being used by some employers to bring in relatively large numbers of foreign workers who may well be displacing U.S. workers and eroding employers’ commitment to the domestic workforce.

I can't say if he's right or wrong about the original intent nor do I particularly care about original intent. But one more reason to ask why increase H1B as opposed to other mechanisms?

The Department of Labor (DOL) has stated explicitly that “non H-1B dependent” employers, or those whose H-1B workers comprise less than 15 percent of its total workforce, may hire a foreign worker even when a qualified American worker wants the job, and may displace an American worker from his job in favor of a foreign worker. Contrary to popular belief, it is only “H-1B dependent” employers who must comply with non-displacement and good faith recruitment requirements. Regulations make it easy to avoid classification as an “H1B dependent” employer, as they allow the employer to count all of its employees (e.g., janitors, secretaries, etc.) when calculating the ratio—not only workers in the particular specialty occupation.

It isn't the point of the paper and I can't access it but the abstract seems to suggest that H1Bs can have a measurable positive impact for startups.
https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/mnsc.2021.4152

[Captain FIRE]

I remember reading a few articles about the Twitter demand to commit to work all hours, or quit, talking about how the visa holders were forced to stay because they had no choice, they desperately needed the job to stay.

And here we are, with Musk wanting more visa holders. Shocking I tell you, very shocking!

[MustacheAndaHalf]

That's an overwhelming list, but we were discussing plenty of research.  As an aside, "unfair labor conditions" is something I recall Bernie Sanders mentioning, and is part of the reason I was curious about this.  I don't agree with that take, but calling it unfair financial penalties would be accurate, in my view.

[207] and [208] are investigative journalism. So, between a study and anecdata maybe?
https://www.wired.com/2014/11/investigation-reveals-silicon-valleys-abuse-immigrant-tech-workers/
https://revealnews.org/article/job-brokers-steal-wages-entrap-indian-tech-workers-in-us/

Reading the wired article without registering is difficult, but I read through the second article.

Indian tech workers can rely on a labor broker.  If they try to switch jobs, their employer may sue them - even though in theory, they should be allowed to change jobs without penalty.  The article cited one employer with 32 lawsuits against former workers.  They also mentioned one case with Apple, but that seemed borderline to me: the worker returned to India for a time, continued working, and the labor broker claimed they should be paid local wages while working in India.

H-1B visa workers who request help from the U.S. government run into contradictory situations.  The place where someone worked sued them for not fulfilling their employment.  But technically, the labor broker paid their wages.  So the Department of Labor concluded they were never employed by the company that was suing them over not fulfilling an employment contract.

[Fomerly known as something]

Those are fine - any that are based on contributions made over a lifetime, even if the employer/government boosts it a bit.

I'm talking about widespread pensions that you get unconditionally even if you never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life.

Uhhhhh what is this widespread pension that you get unconditionally even if you've never worked or paid a cent of income tax in your life that you speak of?

Like, can you be more specific about what specific pension this is? I'm not aware of any pension that pays out benefits that the recipients don't pay into, especially one that is "widespread"...

The definition of a pension is literally this:

pen·sion
[ˈpenSHən]
noun
a regular payment made during a person's retirement from an investment fund to which that person or their employer has contributed during their working life.

SSI for someone with little to no work history is $967 a month.  So not much at all and in fact close to $3000 below the poverty level in the US.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

one of those sources to call out about wages, I think 189 above. {California Attorney General’s former senior advisor on immigration and labor}
https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/

I read this as criticizing the impact on wage and job mobility.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4010152

The Economic Policy Institute link has a good summary quote:

"Major U.S. firms use the H-1B program to pay low wages. Among the top 30 H-1B employers are major U.S. firms including Amazon, Microsoft, Walmart, Google, Apple, and Facebook. All of them take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill."

The SSRN research paper talks of concentration lowering wages.  The lottery system awards more H-1B visas to companies that file more applications, which leads to fewer companies and lower wages.

I'm surprised H-1B software engineers are getting paid less for being H-1B visa holders, essentially holding them hostage over their inability to do anything about it (unless they want to be kicked out and lose their high paying job, relative to opportunities in India).  It sounds like the U.S. government could force companies to pay median wages to H-1B workers.

Actually, it might be better to put a "tariff" on employers, where the employee must be paid a median wage, and the company must pay the government money for using H-1B workers.  That way the company pays more to employ H-1B visa holders, and they'll only do so if they need the labor (not just to skimp on wages).

[reeshau]

one of those sources to call out about wages, I think 189 above. {California Attorney General’s former senior advisor on immigration and labor}
https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/

I read this as criticizing the impact on wage and job mobility.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4010152

The Economic Policy Institute link has a good summary quote:

"Major U.S. firms use the H-1B program to pay low wages. Among the top 30 H-1B employers are major U.S. firms including Amazon, Microsoft, Walmart, Google, Apple, and Facebook. All of them take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill."

The SSRN research paper talks of concentration lowering wages.  The lottery system awards more H-1B visas to companies that file more applications, which leads to fewer companies and lower wages.

I'm surprised H-1B software engineers are getting paid less for being H-1B visa holders, essentially holding them hostage over their inability to do anything about it (unless they want to be kicked out and lose their high paying job, relative to opportunities in India).  It sounds like the U.S. government could force companies to pay median wages to H-1B workers.

Actually, it might be better to put a "tariff" on employers, where the employee must be paid a median wage, and the company must pay the government money for using H-1B workers.  That way the company pays more to employ H-1B visa holders, and they'll only do so if they need the labor (not just to skimp on wages).

Thinking from the visa holder's perspective, the issue isn't whether they would get more as a citizen or green card holder.  The issue is what they would get paid in their home country.  I couldn't find a study about it, but there is a lot of anecdotal, as well as (likely leaning positive) information by companies brokering h1b's.

I did find a 2017 blog post titled: H1B Visa Abuse: What Do Software Engineers Earn in India and Pakistan? that said that software engineers earn about 20x their Indian salary in the US, referencing Glassdoor.  ($110k vs. $6,875)  A good deal of this will be eaten up in higher cost of living, but it's still a different world.

Making H1B's more costly isn't going to equalize opportunity for H1B holders; it's going to eliminate that opportunity.

[twinstudy]

^ Precisely. Migrant talent comes in, finds a new opportunity and a new life, earns much more than they could back home, and their children - the second generation migrants who grow up with English as their first language - become the next generation's doctors and lawyers. Best way to import talent across the board.

[reeshau]

Best way to import talent across the board.

I don't agree with this.  While it has been the common way the US has integrated immigrants, there is nothing keeping the US from just allowing skilled labor to immigrate.  If you look at immigration policies of many countries around medical skills, they are welcomed in immediately, with no second-tier status.  This is because they are in short supply, and obviously needed.  Countries are competing for them, on wages.

If we deem other skills as needed and strategic, we could be as open for them, too.

[startingout]

I disagree with Vivek and Elon on the policies they want to bring forth, but I too have always wondered why most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world. They would rather their kids be athletic and popular in school than end up as nerds. They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week and cost $XX,XXX a year, instead of saving that money for college or spending it on a tutor. Many kids who compete at the elite level in sports are homeschooled. And the homeschooling they do receive just covers the academic basics so they can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to their sport. What are the chances that any kid will be able to make a living as an athlete? Almost none. The median professional athlete barely scrapes by, and is riddled with injuries. Whereas the median professional in any nerdy field makes a very comfortable living. I don't think parents should push their kids into careers they have no interest in, of course. But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity when most of it is fleeting?

It's rare that I see this much wild conjecture, sweeping generalizations, assumptions and piles of straw men in a single post!
Do you have a source for.... any of this?

Yes. Elite gymnastics requires 20-30 hours of training per week, according to the official USA Gymnastics organization.
Source: https://usagym.org/men/pathways/usag-elite-track/#:~:text=The%20focus%20of%20the%20Elite,20%20%E2%80%93%2030%20hours%20per%20week
Simone Biles' gym has its own school for athletes with 4 hours of instruction a day, including lunch. It has 2 teachers total for its middle and high school program, and offers no AP classes. But I'm sure this is as good as it gets as far as homeschooling full-time athletes goes. Source: https://www.academyatwcc.com/classes/7-12-lit-ss-sci-math

Parents spend $10k-20k per year on a kid who plays hockey. Source: https://thehockeythinktank.com/the-costs-of-aaa-hockey/
Canadian boys who play hockey each have a 0.025% chance of getting drafted into the NHL. Source: https://www.hockeycanada.ca/en-ca/news/2003-gn-001-en

A ballet education costs $120,000 in 2015 dollars, or around $158,800 in today's dollars. Ballet students train around 20 hours a week, 6 out of 7 days.
Sources: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/high-price-of-ballet-diversity-misty-copeland/
https://cpyb.org/what-is-a-pre-professional-dancer/#:~:text=Pre%2Dprofessional%20dancers%20dedicate%20several%20hours%20a%20day%2C%20often%20six%20days%20a%20week%2C%20to%20rigorous%20training%20that
https://balletscoop.com/2011/08/03/is-my-class-schedule-pre-professional/

Meanwhile, starting ballerinas earn $20k-60k a year, and that $60k is probably in an expensive city. Source: https://danceivy.com/blogs/news/ballerina-salary-range-beyond-the-stage
Yet so many people want to be professional ballerinas that there are about 100 applicants per job opening. Source: https://www.balletscout.info/blogs/navigating-ballet-auditions-and-jobs-in-an-evolving-competitive-job-market-none/#:~:text=A%20Highly%20Competitive%20Field&text=This%20is%20especially%20true%20for,for%20a%20handful%20of%20positions.

Oh, and dancers retire from their professional careers around age 38. Source: https://datapointesguide.com/generalretirement
The age retirement age for the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc. is much younger too, with the average NFL career being around 3 years long.

Ok sure, and...? Expensive and intense athletics exists. No surprise? Does everyone do this? Do even 1% of kids do this?

My issues was with:

"most Americans look up to the prom queens and jocks of the world."

[citation needed]

"They sign their kids up for sports that take up 20 hours a week "

Who are "they"? I know a few dozen parents, the most extreme do 3 hrs/week of athletics.

"But why do both parents and kids care so much about athleticism and popularity"

Who does? Most, all? 5%? Based on what?

How do you know most parents look up to athletes and/or "popular" people? What is this based on? Are you sure there isn't at least an equal number of parents/kids who (quietly) strive to do well in STEM fields, get into MIT, Stanford etc? Who look up to titans in tech industry, programmers at Google with $250k starting salaries, people who make an app in they 20s and sell it for a gazillion dollars? Nobody looks up to this? Is there a survey that shows a majority of parents would be disappointed if their children become doctors, lawyers or engineers, rather than trying to playing professional basketball? I'm sure some/a few do, but can you tell me how many parents are working on getting their kids to become pros in the NBA, NFL etc?

And pretty misleading to talk about "kids", then cite numbers for people who work to become professional ballet dancers. (and per your link it's "only" 10-15 hr/week up to age 15..). That's not some kids doing afterschool activities, that' the most extreme of the extreme. How many kids are we talking about who do that?
Quick google tells me there are 6,363 students at ballet schools in the US. If we just assume that 1% of all who try to go to ballet school actually do (no idea what actual number is), that means 636,300 kids do this intense 12-20 hr/week regimen. Out of 73,6 M kids in the US, that means 0.865%. Sorry, i won't accept extrapolating from <1% to say that "parents" sign their kids up for 20 hrs a week, as if that's in any way the norm!

And by the way, many surveys of kids about what they want to do when they grow up is topped by things like "youtuber/influencer" and "esports". Hardly the realm of (traditional) athletics!

I know most American kids look up to the prom queens and jocks because I was a kid once. And I could easily observe who most people admired, looked up to, and wanted to befriend. Young people aspiring to be influencers is also part of the problem. Many influencing careers (the ones who actually manage to make a living) end up turning into OnlyFans careers. Nothing wrong with that, but I sure wouldn't want it for my kids.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

^ Precisely. Migrant talent comes in, finds a new opportunity and a new life, earns much more than they could back home, and their children - the second generation migrants who grow up with English as their first language - become the next generation's doctors and lawyers. Best way to import talent across the board.

The goal of H-1B visas isn't to import talent, but rather to fill a gap in the U.S. labor force.  Because employers can pay less for H-1B visa holders, they can prefer H-1B visa holders over Americans for the same job.  Making the salary equal to the median - plus a cost - would ensure employers have the right incentive.  They would hire Americans first, and if they need people badly, they'll rely on H-1B workers.

As to talent, the top programmers in India are better than the average software engineer in the U.S.  Software engineer productivity varies dramatically.  Employers may choose top software engineers from India because of their added productivity, even if average American programmers are available.  This part somewhat goes against the idea of H-1B visas, but I'm in favor of it when there's a big skill difference.

The problem with the current program is when average American programmers don't have jobs because it is cheaper to hire average programmers through the H-1B program.  That's why I think median salary plus a payment to the government would help align the incentive for H-1B visas.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

one of those sources to call out about wages, I think 189 above. {California Attorney General’s former senior advisor on immigration and labor}
https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/

I read this as criticizing the impact on wage and job mobility.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4010152

The Economic Policy Institute link has a good summary quote:

"Major U.S. firms use the H-1B program to pay low wages. Among the top 30 H-1B employers are major U.S. firms including Amazon, Microsoft, Walmart, Google, Apple, and Facebook. All of them take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill."

The SSRN research paper talks of concentration lowering wages.  The lottery system awards more H-1B visas to companies that file more applications, which leads to fewer companies and lower wages.

I'm surprised H-1B software engineers are getting paid less for being H-1B visa holders, essentially holding them hostage over their inability to do anything about it (unless they want to be kicked out and lose their high paying job, relative to opportunities in India).  It sounds like the U.S. government could force companies to pay median wages to H-1B workers.

Actually, it might be better to put a "tariff" on employers, where the employee must be paid a median wage, and the company must pay the government money for using H-1B workers.  That way the company pays more to employ H-1B visa holders, and they'll only do so if they need the labor (not just to skimp on wages).

Thinking from the visa holder's perspective, the issue isn't whether they would get more as a citizen or green card holder.  The issue is what they would get paid in their home country.  I couldn't find a study about it, but there is a lot of anecdotal, as well as (likely leaning positive) information by companies brokering h1b's.

I did find a 2017 blog post titled: H1B Visa Abuse: What Do Software Engineers Earn in India and Pakistan? that said that software engineers earn about 20x their Indian salary in the US, referencing Glassdoor.  ($110k vs. $6,875)  A good deal of this will be eaten up in higher cost of living, but it's still a different world.

Making H1B's more costly isn't going to equalize opportunity for H1B holders; it's going to eliminate that opportunity.

The H-1B visa program is to benefit the United States, not help out people around the world.  In cases where not enough Americans are available, H-1B visas can fill the gap.  But it is being abused to hire cheaper software engineers, rather than to hire American software engineers of the same ability.

I claim top software engineers are far more productive, and worth hiring despite the restrictions.  Actually, once a top software engineer is working in the U.S., they could probably get paid better than median wages by shifting jobs.  The tariff/payment to the government aligns incentives: companies prefer American workers, but are willing to hire H-1B workers if the need is great enough.

If we disagree about the intent of H-1B visas, here's my source:

"The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States."
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b

[reeshau]

The H-1B visa program is to benefit the United States, not help out people around the world. 

Yes, of course it is.  It is not charity.  Neither is it rapacious to the H1-B holder, although there is a risk of undue influence by the employer, if said employer was acting unethically.  Economically, they are generally a benefit to the recipient vs. salary prospects in their native country.

I was specifically addressing the point prior to my post, focused more on the recipient than the employer.

[twinstudy]

The H-1B visa program is to benefit the United States, not help out people around the world. 

Yes, of course it is.  It is not charity.  Neither is it rapacious to the H1-B holder, although there is a risk of undue influence by the employer, if said employer was acting unethically.  Economically, they are generally a benefit to the recipient vs. salary prospects in their native country.

I was specifically addressing the point prior to my post, focused more on the recipient than the employer.

I think the point I was trying to make is that in the 21st century, migration programs should be tailored to help 1) the industry's interests (importing the best talent available) and 2) help out the recipient - rather than being framed as just helping or protecting existing workers in the country. It's not to be a charity, but neither is it meant to protect American jobs.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

The H-1B visa program is to benefit the United States, not help out people around the world. 

Yes, of course it is.  It is not charity.  Neither is it rapacious to the H1-B holder, although there is a risk of undue influence by the employer, if said employer was acting unethically.  Economically, they are generally a benefit to the recipient vs. salary prospects in their native country.

I was specifically addressing the point prior to my post, focused more on the recipient than the employer.

I think the point I was trying to make is that in the 21st century, migration programs should be tailored to help 1) the industry's interests (importing the best talent available) and 2) help out the recipient - rather than being framed as just helping or protecting existing workers in the country. It's not to be a charity, but neither is it meant to protect American jobs.

I quoted the Department of Labor to reeshau, and my reading is that H-1Bs are supposed to protect American jobs.  Only missing "skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce" qualify:

"The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States."
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b

[PeteD01]

The H-1B visa program is to benefit the United States, not help out people around the world. 

Yes, of course it is.  It is not charity.  Neither is it rapacious to the H1-B holder, although there is a risk of undue influence by the employer, if said employer was acting unethically.  Economically, they are generally a benefit to the recipient vs. salary prospects in their native country.

I was specifically addressing the point prior to my post, focused more on the recipient than the employer.

I think the point I was trying to make is that in the 21st century, migration programs should be tailored to help 1) the industry's interests (importing the best talent available) and 2) help out the recipient - rather than being framed as just helping or protecting existing workers in the country. It's not to be a charity, but neither is it meant to protect American jobs.

MAGA really digs that attitude:

Steve Bannon condemns Elon Musk as ‘racist’ and ‘truly evil’
Ex-Trump adviser denounces tech CEO’s embrace of some forms of immigration and vows to ‘take this guy down’
Chris Michael
Sun 12 Jan 2025

“This thing of the H-1B visas, it’s about the entire immigration system is gamed by the tech overlords. They use it to their advantage. The people are furious,” said Bannon, whom Trump fired from his White House position during his first administration but who later reinvented himself through his War Room podcast as one of the chief evangelists of the Maga movement.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/12/steve-bannon-calls-elon-musk-racist

[Scandium]

The H-1B visa program is to benefit the United States, not help out people around the world. 

Yes, of course it is.  It is not charity.  Neither is it rapacious to the H1-B holder, although there is a risk of undue influence by the employer, if said employer was acting unethically.  Economically, they are generally a benefit to the recipient vs. salary prospects in their native country.

I was specifically addressing the point prior to my post, focused more on the recipient than the employer.

I think the point I was trying to make is that in the 21st century, migration programs should be tailored to help 1) the industry's interests (importing the best talent available) and 2) help out the recipient - rather than being framed as just helping or protecting existing workers in the country. It's not to be a charity, but neither is it meant to protect American jobs.

MAGA really digs that attitude:

Steve Bannon condemns Elon Musk as ‘racist’ and ‘truly evil’
Ex-Trump adviser denounces tech CEO’s embrace of some forms of immigration and vows to ‘take this guy down’
Chris Michael
Sun 12 Jan 2025

“This thing of the H-1B visas, it’s about the entire immigration system is gamed by the tech overlords. They use it to their advantage. The people are furious,” said Bannon, whom Trump fired from his White House position during his first administration but who later reinvented himself through his War Room podcast as one of the chief evangelists of the Maga movement.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/12/steve-bannon-calls-elon-musk-racist

Wow. When you're called racist by the guy who ran a news site with a category "Black crime"... you might be a very racists.

[twinstudy]

I would consider that anything that pisses off MAGA types is likely to be good policy. Making them all unemployed would be good policy.