Author Topic: Louis CK apologizes to everyone  (Read 5942 times)

Johnez

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Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« on: November 10, 2017, 12:51:18 PM »
Laid himself pretty bare here. Of course all of this comes at the heels of numerous accusations, but refusing the "deny deny deny, change  subject, blame victim, blame everyone else, and deny more" tactic is refreshing. Absolutelyly admits fault. Doesn't deny a thing. Doesn't obfuscate the facts. Doesn't blame the victim. Doesn't justify himself.

What do you all think of this? Cosby, Weinstein, and now a whole can of worms has opened since.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/10/563316860/louis-c-k-admits-to-sexual-harassment-of-multiple-female-comedians

Quote
I have been remorseful of my actions. And I've tried to learn from them. And run from them. Now I'm aware of the extent of the impact of my actions. I learned yesterday the extent to which I left these women who admired me feeling badly about themselves and cautious around other men who would never have put them in that position.
I also took advantage of the fact that I was widely admired in my and their community, which disabled them from sharing their story and brought hardship to them when they tried because people who look up to me didn't want to hear it. I didn't think that I was doing any of that because my position allowed me not to think about it

« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 12:54:19 PM by Johnez »

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2017, 12:57:57 PM »
For a professional asshat, Louis CK is a pretty classy guy.  Albeit a human one.  Props to him for owning up to his faults.
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Sailor Sam

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2017, 12:59:27 PM »
For a professional asshat, Louis CK is a pretty classy guy.  Albeit a human one.  Props to him for owning up to his faults.

Agreed.

Kris

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2017, 01:01:04 PM »
I guess he finally decided that he couldn't hide from it anymore.

Which he was doing, as recently as two months ago.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/11/movies/louis-ck-rumors-wont-answer.html

Louis CK has built his comedy reputation on being self-deprecating and hyper-aware. It turns out that a lot of that looks to have been a smokescreen.

Which sort of sucks, because now I can't even really read his admission as anything but a "yeah I did this but I totally get WHY it was wrong, so maybe it's not quite as bad?"

I loved Louis CK. I haven't been able to watch his comedy in a little over a year, since I started hearing about these multiple allegations from different women, and that it was an open secret.

I'm glad he said this, but unfortunately it's not really going to change the fact that he didn't admit it until he was backed into such a corner he basically had no choice.
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Kris

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2017, 01:09:36 PM »
Also, I'd like to point out that CK never apologized in this statement. Not once. There is no "I'm sorry" there. And he also manages to spend a hell of a lot of time in his statement talking about how hard it's been for him. The only forgiveness he talks about is his own forgiveness of himself.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Lis

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2017, 01:17:32 PM »
Ditto to Kris. It's sad that it's refreshing to hear him admit his wrongdoings, since we do live in the world of denying/victim blaming. But just because he admitted what he did was wrong doesn't make him classy - the whole waving his dick in front of women and jerking off in front of them pretty much cancels that out.

ixtap

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2017, 01:17:54 PM »
Also, I'd like to point out that CK never apologized in this statement. Not once. There is no "I'm sorry" there. And he also manages to spend a hell of a lot of time in his statement talking about how hard it's been for him. The only forgiveness he talks about is his own forgiveness of himself.

Still a hell of a lot better than all the "Sorry, but I don't think I did anything wrong" or "It never happened" statements.

GuitarStv

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2017, 01:18:00 PM »
He actually asked each time if it was OK for him to pull it out and do what he did.  He was a celebrity, but it's not like he forced the women to stay there.  In the one instance where the woman declined, he didn't do anything.  While I get why the women were not OK with what he was doing, it's kinda a weird sex-related case for me in that I can see where he would have reason to think that they were OK with what was going on.

Johnez

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2017, 01:19:40 PM »
Also, I'd like to point out that CK never apologized in this statement. Not once. There is no "I'm sorry" there. And he also manages to spend a hell of a lot of time in his statement talking about how hard it's been for him. The only forgiveness he talks about is his own forgiveness of himself.

Had to reread, you're right. I guess the bar for public mea culpas has been set so low over the years that this one kinda impressed me.

MrMoneySaver

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2017, 01:28:31 PM »
Also, I'd like to point out that CK never apologized in this statement. Not once. There is no "I'm sorry" there. And he also manages to spend a hell of a lot of time in his statement talking about how hard it's been for him. The only forgiveness he talks about is his own forgiveness of himself.

Exactly. Also noted numerous times that he is someone that people admire and/or look up to.

Didn't say anything about whether he plans to continue the behavior. Doesn't talk about whether the behavior itself is disgusting. No insight about why he was doing this stuff or how he plans to stop.

Disappointing. Doesn't deserve any praise.

marielle

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2017, 01:29:28 PM »
Also, I'd like to point out that CK never apologized in this statement. Not once. There is no "I'm sorry" there. And he also manages to spend a hell of a lot of time in his statement talking about how hard it's been for him. The only forgiveness he talks about is his own forgiveness of himself.

Had to reread, you're right. I guess the bar for public mea culpas has been set so low over the years that this one kinda impressed me.

Yeah, and he talked more about the pain he has caused his family and coworkers than the actual victims.

WTF?

sol

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2017, 01:31:39 PM »
The Weinstein story seems to have really blown the lid off of sexual harassment charges, and now everyone is going down.  Bill Cosby is lost.  Kevin Spacey is lost.  Louis CK is lost. 

Ten years ago, this sort of thing was recoverable.  Arnold Schwarzenegger banged his maid in his wife's bed, but nothing really happened to him.  Kevin Spacey's assaults have been well known for years, and he kept getting jobs. 

But things are different now, and I think it's because of Trump's Access Hollywood pussy-grabber tape.  The highest halls of power in America decided that sexual assault isn't a thing anymore, and the American public reacted with revulsion.  We're suddenly much more attuned to this issue, as we should have been all along, and that has helped a bunch of these cases have, for the first time, actual repercussions.  Weinstein is unlikely to ever work again.

I could write a whole essay about the Weinstein case, which I find fascinating for a variety of reasons.  Like Louis CK, he basically admitted fault and then accepted professional sanctions.  Also like Louis CK (and everyone else mentioned in this thread) he already has FU money and doesn't really give a damn.  It's not like needs to work ever again.  People at his level are already FI, and are working because they want to work.  They don't really suffer by having all of their shows/movies/appearances cancelled, because they're already financially set for life.  They have nothing to lose.

And the only one who did have something to lose was Trump, and he didn't lose.  He successfully made everyone in the country accept that he's a sexual predator and that's okay, because he told them Obama was a Kenyan Muslim and he would MAGA.  Now we're seeing the exact same story play out with the pedophile Ray Moore in Alabama, who sexually assaulted a 14 year old girl when he was 32, and I can just about guarantee you that he'll follow the Trump playbook and win his election anyway.  It's fine to be a pervert if you're a Republican, it seems, because evangelicals care more about politics than they do about morality.

sol

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2017, 01:37:27 PM »
he also manages to spend a hell of a lot of time in his statement talking about how hard it's been for him. The only forgiveness he talks about is his own forgiveness of himself.

This is a common problem with adulterers, too.  Every psychologist in the world will tell you that one of the hardest parts of rebuilding a marriage after infidelity is convincing the wrongdoer to ease up on the self-flagellation and recognize the their spouses feelings and hurts.  It's normal for someone who knows they fucked up to be so focused on the "I'm a terrible person" part of their ordeal that they fail to offer the love and support that their partner needs, to recognize how wronged and hurt the spouse feels, apart from what a terrible person the adulterer is. 

So let's all give Louis CK a week or two to work through his emotional BS.  Admitting fault is step one (I'm looking at your, Roy Moore), and I think you need to get through that first before you can start on making amends. 

Samuel

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2017, 01:47:56 PM »
... the pedophile Ray Moore in Alabama, who sexually assaulted a 14 year old girl when he was 32...

And a DISTRICT ATTORNEY.

It's fine to be a pervert if you're a Republican, it seems, because evangelicals care more about politics than they do about morality.

Evangelicals will always vote republican as long as they promise pro life judges and legislation. That moral issue trumps all others for them.

What worries me is the wide swath of non-evangelical republicans who are now convinced that anything reported in a mainstream news source that reflects poorly on a republican individual or idea is automatically politically motivated "fake news". Seemingly nothing can break through anymore. Indeed, the increasingly frequent and serious threats to their Fox News/Breitbart worldview only serve to reinforce their beliefs.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2017, 01:56:31 PM »
Quote
I have been remorseful of my actions.

You expressed remorse about being caught, asshat.

Maybe start by apologizing to the women.
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Samuel

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2017, 02:04:58 PM »
Also, I'd like to point out that CK never apologized in this statement. Not once. There is no "I'm sorry" there. And he also manages to spend a hell of a lot of time in his statement talking about how hard it's been for him. The only forgiveness he talks about is his own forgiveness of himself.

I noticed that too and thought, "Interesting... apparently he didn't even run this statement by a publicist first", assuming that they would have helped him with that glaring blind spot.

But no, the statement was released by his publicist.

forumname123

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2017, 02:08:05 PM »
Quote
I have been remorseful of my actions.

You expressed remorse about being caught, asshat.

Maybe start by apologizing to the women.

He called at least some of these women years ago to apologize. Stop nitpicking his words and stop jumping to conclusions when you don't know anything even remotely close to the whole story.

Kris

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2017, 02:10:32 PM »
He actually asked each time if it was OK for him to pull it out and do what he did.  He was a celebrity, but it's not like he forced the women to stay there.  In the one instance where the woman declined, he didn't do anything.  While I get why the women were not OK with what he was doing, it's kinda a weird sex-related case for me in that I can see where he would have reason to think that they were OK with what was going on.

Steve, I hope you'll read this piece by a female comedian who has not been sexually harassed by Louis CK, and rethink what seems to me like your feeling that this was consensual and appropriate. Recognize that this is a workplace. It's not an office building, but it is still a workplace. Think of this in the context of having your manager or an important head of industry asking a woman who needs to keep her job whether he can whip out his dick and masturbate in front of her. An industry where there's no HR department to run to and file a formal complaint.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/opinion/sunday/louis-ck-harassment.html?smid=fb-nytopinion&smtyp=cur

Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

MrMoneySaver

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2017, 02:12:05 PM »
Quote
I have been remorseful of my actions.

You expressed remorse about being caught, asshat.

Maybe start by apologizing to the women.

He called at least some of these women years ago to apologize. Stop nitpicking his words and stop jumping to conclusions when you don't know anything even remotely close to the whole story.

We know what Louis CK tells us. He uses words to tell us those things. His words are fair game for scrutiny.

forumname123

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2017, 02:21:48 PM »
Quote
I have been remorseful of my actions.

You expressed remorse about being caught, asshat.

Maybe start by apologizing to the women.

He called at least some of these women years ago to apologize. Stop nitpicking his words and stop jumping to conclusions when you don't know anything even remotely close to the whole story.

We know what Louis CK tells us. He uses words to tell us those things. His words are fair game for scrutiny.

We also know what the women tell us. They have told us that he called them years ago to apologize for his actions. Fucking people these days with their pitchforks.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2017, 02:31:06 PM »
Quote
I have been remorseful of my actions.

You expressed remorse about being caught, asshat.

Maybe start by apologizing to the women.

He called at least some of these women years ago to apologize. Stop nitpicking his words and stop jumping to conclusions when you don't know anything even remotely close to the whole story.

Quote
“I’m not going to answer to that stuff, because they’re rumors,” “If you actually participate in a rumor, you make it bigger and you make it real.” “So it’s not real?” the Times asked C.K. “No,” he said. “They’re rumors, that’s all that is.” “I don’t know why [Tig Notaro] said the things she’s said, I really don’t… I don’t think talking about that stuff in the press and having conversations over press lanes is a good idea.”

http://time.com/4937168/louis-c-k-sexual-misconduct-allegations/

This is Louis CK in two months ago saying it's all rumors and that Tig Notaro wasn't telling the truth.
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wordnerd

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2017, 02:40:49 PM »
He was backed into a corner and is smart enough to know that the potential road back to his career is the remorseful route. He'll probably write a special or a movie about it and be back on late night in a year to promote it. It remains to see if he can get back into the public's good graces, but based on the early reaction to his statement, it seems likely.

Kris

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2017, 02:42:51 PM »
He was backed into a corner and is smart enough to know that the potential road back to his career is the remorseful route. He'll probably write a special or a movie about it and be back on late night in a year to promote it. It remains to see if he can get back into the public's good graces, but based on the early reaction to his statement, it seems likely.

I agree. Kevin Spacey's career is cooked. Louis CK will spend a little time out in the wilderness and be welcomed back with open arms as "a changed man," I predict.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

MrMoneySaver

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2017, 03:21:59 PM »
He was backed into a corner and is smart enough to know that the potential road back to his career is the remorseful route. He'll probably write a special or a movie about it and be back on late night in a year to promote it. It remains to see if he can get back into the public's good graces, but based on the early reaction to his statement, it seems likely.

Totally agree.

wenchsenior

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2017, 04:09:51 PM »
He was backed into a corner and is smart enough to know that the potential road back to his career is the remorseful route. He'll probably write a special or a movie about it and be back on late night in a year to promote it. It remains to see if he can get back into the public's good graces, but based on the early reaction to his statement, it seems likely.

I agree. Kevin Spacey's career is cooked. Louis CK will spend a little time out in the wilderness and be welcomed back with open arms as "a changed man," I predict.

This whole situation is going to be terribly disruptive for a lot of industries in the short term, and probably good in the longer term.
On a personal level, I'm glad this stuff is floating to the surface, but it's also depressing me that I can't currently look to tv/movies as good escapism from the real world without worrying about the shoe to drop.   I've always tried really hard to separate my admiration of peoples' work from their personal lives (the world is chock-full of assholes, after all). I had no trouble watching Miramax films or appreciating what the Weinsteins did to boost the indie film industry, even though I've known all about Harvey Weinstein's bullying/assault/rape activities since the late 1990s (and I have no connections in the industry, it was not even remotely a secret). 

But I suspect I won't be able to do that with a lot of these people.  It's a bummer.  Several of my favorite movies of all time star Kevin Spacey, and I've loved his work since Wiseguy in the 80s....given how much I knew about Weinstein, I'm honestly a little surprised that I hadn't heard more details about Spacey before...I'd only ever heard that he was a tomcatter who liked younger men (not unusual in Hollywood), not that he was a serial assaulter, potential pedophile, and general asshole.  So now I'm wondering who else I've been overlooking.

Basically, I'm bracing myself in case more favorite performers and movies that I love are suddenly rendered unwatchable, at least for the foreseeable future. Ugh. 

TempusFugit

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2017, 04:10:21 PM »
Evangelicals will always vote republican as long as they promise pro life judges and legislation. That moral issue trumps all others for them.

What worries me is the wide swath of non-evangelical republicans who are now convinced that anything reported in a mainstream news source that reflects poorly on a republican individual or idea is automatically politically motivated "fake news". Seemingly nothing can break through anymore. Indeed, the increasingly frequent and serious threats to their Fox News/Breitbart worldview only serve to reinforce their beliefs.

Whereas atheistic liberals suffer from no biases whatsoever and always judge the other side strictly on the merits of the argument and evidence?   Just pointing out that every human being has the same basic default settings in regard to giving people that we perceive to be on 'our team' the benefit of the doubt but always assume that the people on the 'other team' are all dumb, devious, or worse.  In some cases, we're right, but that doesn't make it ok to generalize.  It blinds us to the opportunities to find common ground and advance our society. 

The idea that it's a zero sum game and that it's better the burn the place down than to let the other side win has seemingly overtaken us.  Our politicians and our media simply reflect our society. Now we're in a feedback loop that is creating an unstable system.


Obviously, the sudden exposure (unintentional pun) of so many public figures as sexual predators and general perverts only serves to highlight the universal truth that we shouldn't put too much faith in any public person, our "side" or not. 

It makes me sad that these things were allowed to happen, firstly, for the harm it caused to the victims.  It makes me sad also that now our enjoyment of the product of some very talented entertainers is forever ruined.   Can't ever enjoy a Cosby Show rerun now.  Guess I won't catch up on last season's House of Cards, either.  Perhaps if these individuals had not been allowed to continue their behavior for so long, they would have been expunged from the public eye and other, equally or even more talented people would have had space to be elevated in the public consciousness. 



 

sol

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2017, 05:37:49 PM »
Whereas atheistic liberals suffer from no biases whatsoever and always judge the other side strictly on the merits of the argument and evidence?

I think you're missing the point.  Those atheistic liberals are the ones that kicked Weinstein out of the producers guild, and had to reshoot Kevin Spacey's movies with Christopher Plummer because having his name attached to a new film release would be a death knell for the project.  By contrast, those evangelical christians are the ones who put the pussy grabber in the white house, and are about to elect a pedo anti-Constitutionalist to Congress.

I'm not suggesting atheistic liberals are free from bias, but in this case they are definitely imposing career-ending consequences on their creepers, while the conservative political establishment has instead chosen to play apologist or denier for theirs.

GuitarStv

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2017, 06:29:15 PM »
He actually asked each time if it was OK for him to pull it out and do what he did.  He was a celebrity, but it's not like he forced the women to stay there.  In the one instance where the woman declined, he didn't do anything.  While I get why the women were not OK with what he was doing, it's kinda a weird sex-related case for me in that I can see where he would have reason to think that they were OK with what was going on.

Steve, I hope you'll read this piece by a female comedian who has not been sexually harassed by Louis CK, and rethink what seems to me like your feeling that this was consensual and appropriate. Recognize that this is a workplace. It's not an office building, but it is still a workplace. Think of this in the context of having your manager or an important head of industry asking a woman who needs to keep her job whether he can whip out his dick and masturbate in front of her. An industry where there's no HR department to run to and file a formal complaint.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/opinion/sunday/louis-ck-harassment.html?smid=fb-nytopinion&smtyp=cur

I fully understand that Louis CK is a big deal in the comedy world.  I get how a female comic might feel pressure to agree to stuff because of that.  Asking for consent for sex acts in the workplace - totally unacceptable.

Some of the complaints though come about after being invited up to a private hotel room by someone of the opposite sex - post drinks and when the bars have all closed.  That is not the same as being at a place of work.  In the hotel room instance he asked for consent.  There was literally no reason for the women to stay there if they wanted to leave.  As far as that goes, I kinda don't see the problem?  If I took a woman I work with to my hotel room after drinks and wanted to have sexy time, I'd (probably very awkwardly) ask her after getting into the room if everything is OK with her too.  Is that wrong of me?

sol

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2017, 06:45:34 PM »
Some of the complaints though come about after being invited up to a private hotel room by someone of the opposite sex - post drinks and when the bars have all closed.  That is not the same as being at a place of work.

This is the exact same script that Harvey Weinstein used, too.  He invited adults to his room, and then made awkward advances.  If they said no, they left and nothing happened.  Some of them, though, felt pressured to say yes because of his stature in the industry, and that's why his career is over.  He didn't have to do anything at all except ask an adult woman if she wanted to have sex.  That's inappropriate, if there's a perceived power dynamic at play.

Sex is a weird topic.  Stuff that is alluring/amazing//hilarious when I do it for my wife would absolutely get me thrown in jail if I did it for a stranger.  Consent makes all of the difference.  Implied consent is sometimes enough, but not always.  Misunderstood consent will get you thrown in jail.

And it's even harder with men who are rich and famous, because they routinely have women who DO want to have sex with them, totally randomly.  Some women will absolutely throw themselves at a rock star or celebrity, literally beg to do unspeakable things in public places, and I think those men get a little too accustomed to that kind of treatment.  So when they find a woman who ISN'T thrilled when he whips out his cock, they're maybe understandably surprised.  Your whole worldview of sex gets messed up, when you live that kind of life.  I'm not defending exposing yourself to unwilling strangers because that's still gross, I'm just saying that I understand why someone like Louis CK might think he can get away with it while I would never even consider it.   Not only has he gotten away with it before, he's had women beg him to do it before.

forumname123

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2017, 06:49:52 PM »

He didn't have to do anything at all except ask an adult woman if she wanted to have sex.  That's inappropriate, if there's a perceived power dynamic at play.

I think this is absolute garbage.

We're human beings and there are always power dynamics at play to some extent. If you can't ask in a nice way for sex, then what can you do???? Can I only ask if they are a perceived lower status than I am? Do I have to make sure a woman makes less than I do before I can propose a sexual relationship?? What the hell are these rules you're making?

Sibley

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2017, 06:50:22 PM »
As a woman, it's great that sexual harassment is starting to become socially unacceptable with real consequences. Just starting, but hey, gotta start somewhere.

Other things that it would be great to address:
-Calling women "honey", "sweetie", "sugar", "lovey", "kitten", or any of the dozens of other terms that men use, sometimes unthinkingly, without the clear permission of the woman. Unless you're allowed to sleep in my bed, use my NAME. Anything else is sexist.
-Catcalling women in public.
-Assuming that just because a woman is smiling or being friendly that she must be into you.
-Thinking that if a woman doesn't scream "no" that she must actually want it. Also goes with saying "no" but really meaning "yes".
-Blaming women for the bad behavior of men.
-Holding up foot traffic by insisting that women go first. Also insisting on opening doors when it was the woman who got there first. Don't even THINK about running to get ahead of a woman just to open the door.
-Paying women less for the same work.
-Assuming that women are incapable of doing something simply because they are women.
-Women doing most of the housework, childcare, and general household management while men don't. This is getting better, but we're not to equality yet.
-Unspoken assumptions or prejudices that women can't do "men's work". Things like plumbing, electrical, construction, being a doctor instead of a nurse, pilots, etc.
-Denying women appropriate health care and the right to make decisions about her body, without anyone else's moral judgement.
-Attitudes that women belong in the house caring for children.

There's more of course. But for anyone who doesn't get this - the inferiority of women has literally been baked into Western culture over thousands of years. I can't speak for non-Western cultures, but I would be very surprised if they were any different. Pretty much everything you've ever been told about how people should be behave is probably unequal.

Sibley

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2017, 06:53:50 PM »
And just in case, let's spread some knowledge. This site is intended for teens, but doesn't mean other people can't benefit from sex education.

http://www.scarleteen.com/

If you don't have enthusiastic consent, then you don't have consent. Think that one through. It applies every time, with everyone, with no exceptions.

forumname123

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2017, 06:55:42 PM »
And just in case, let's spread some knowledge. This site is intended for teens, but doesn't mean other people can't benefit from sex education.

http://www.scarleteen.com/

If you don't have enthusiastic consent, then you don't have consent. Think that one through. It applies every time, with everyone, with no exceptions.

Ha! Consent is now being replaced with "enthusiastic consent". Soon that won't be enough and we we will need "Super enthusiastic consent". Newsflash: euphemisms don't solve societal issues. George Carlin is rolling in his grave.

sol

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2017, 07:01:13 PM »

He didn't have to do anything at all except ask an adult woman if she wanted to have sex.  That's inappropriate, if there's a perceived power dynamic at play.

I think this is absolute garbage.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but that's the standard by which these things are being judged.  The vast majority of the women who came out against Harvey Weinstein relayed identical stories; hotel room after drinks, he asked for sex, they felt pressured to say yes.  Sometimes he exposed himself while asking.

Kevin Spacey's accusers are not too different.  He made advances that made them feel uncomfortable, because he was famous and powerful and they felt they couldn't object. 

Even Roy Moore's accusers have a similar story.  He took them to a secluded house in the woods and took off their clothes.  When they got so uncomfortable that they asked him to take them home, he did.  Oh and one of them was 14. 

None of these cases are rape, but they are all arguably sexual assault.  If you touch someone in a sexual fashion, and they don't want to be touched, that's called assault.  Especially if they felt pressured to give consent when they didn't want to, or pressured to not tell anyone about it afterwards.  Those are the hallmarks of abusers.

Hell, one of Weinstein's accusers said she was raped after she invited him into her apartment, TWICE.  She says that he had sex with her even though she didn't give consent, then a week later she invited him into her apartment again, and he did it again.  She felt violated because she felt she couldn't say no, and that's the same as nonconsensual sex.

It's a messy topic, and I don't claim to have any of the answers here.  I don't know what Louis CK's accusers felt, but if enough of them tell the same story about being pressured into things they didn't want, then dude needs to check himself.  Part of being a decent human being is learning from your mistakes, and if you accidentally freak a woman out by whipping out your junk, you're supposed to learn to not whip out your junk anymore unless you're absolutely sure she's going to be cool with it. 

Kris

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2017, 07:28:08 PM »
So...

I am pretty much 100% sure I have never sexually harassed a person I was interested in.

Enthusiastic consent was my default for understanding it was a go.

Do guys sort of get a pass because... they’re guys?

I mean, I am really trying to understand here.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 07:31:33 PM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

forumname123

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2017, 07:37:35 PM »

He didn't have to do anything at all except ask an adult woman if she wanted to have sex.  That's inappropriate, if there's a perceived power dynamic at play.

I think this is absolute garbage.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but that's the standard by which these things are being judged.  The vast majority of the women who came out against Harvey Weinstein relayed identical stories; hotel room after drinks, he asked for sex, they felt pressured to say yes.  Sometimes he exposed himself while asking.

Kevin Spacey's accusers are not too different.  He made advances that made them feel uncomfortable, because he was famous and powerful and they felt they couldn't object. 

Even Roy Moore's accusers have a similar story.  He took them to a secluded house in the woods and took off their clothes.  When they got so uncomfortable that they asked him to take them home, he did.  Oh and one of them was 14. 

None of these cases are rape, but they are all arguably sexual assault.  If you touch someone in a sexual fashion, and they don't want to be touched, that's called assault.  Especially if they felt pressured to give consent when they didn't want to, or pressured to not tell anyone about it afterwards.  Those are the hallmarks of abusers.

Hell, one of Weinstein's accusers said she was raped after she invited him into her apartment, TWICE.  She says that he had sex with her even though she didn't give consent, then a week later she invited him into her apartment again, and he did it again.  She felt violated because she felt she couldn't say no, and that's the same as nonconsensual sex.

It's a messy topic, and I don't claim to have any of the answers here.  I don't know what Louis CK's accusers felt, but if enough of them tell the same story about being pressured into things they didn't want, then dude needs to check himself.  Part of being a decent human being is learning from your mistakes, and if you accidentally freak a woman out by whipping out your junk, you're supposed to learn to not whip out your junk anymore unless you're absolutely sure she's going to be cool with it.

Fair enough, I see where you're coming from now.

To the bolded part, how is the proposer supposed to know if they are saying yes for real, or if they are saying so under perceived duress? 

I know there's a big stigma right now about "blaming the victim", but at some point people do have to take some responsibility for what they allow to happen. These women weren't raped in an alley at knife-point. So, you did sexual things you didn't want to do because for some reason you thought you should. Well, that's at least partially on you. No doubt it's partially on the guy as well for misreading the situation and perhaps taking advantage, but it's partially on you as well. Unless you are being physically forced, you DO have a choice. Whether or not you see that is another issue, but it's unfair to put all the blame on guys who only got "consent" when they are apparently supposed to be getting "enthusiastic consent".

Feeling like you can't say no for career reasons is not the same as saying no.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 07:40:59 PM by forumname123 »

Kris

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2017, 07:48:11 PM »

He didn't have to do anything at all except ask an adult woman if she wanted to have sex.  That's inappropriate, if there's a perceived power dynamic at play.

I think this is absolute garbage.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but that's the standard by which these things are being judged.  The vast majority of the women who came out against Harvey Weinstein relayed identical stories; hotel room after drinks, he asked for sex, they felt pressured to say yes.  Sometimes he exposed himself while asking.

Kevin Spacey's accusers are not too different.  He made advances that made them feel uncomfortable, because he was famous and powerful and they felt they couldn't object. 

Even Roy Moore's accusers have a similar story.  He took them to a secluded house in the woods and took off their clothes.  When they got so uncomfortable that they asked him to take them home, he did.  Oh and one of them was 14. 

None of these cases are rape, but they are all arguably sexual assault.  If you touch someone in a sexual fashion, and they don't want to be touched, that's called assault.  Especially if they felt pressured to give consent when they didn't want to, or pressured to not tell anyone about it afterwards.  Those are the hallmarks of abusers.

Hell, one of Weinstein's accusers said she was raped after she invited him into her apartment, TWICE.  She says that he had sex with her even though she didn't give consent, then a week later she invited him into her apartment again, and he did it again.  She felt violated because she felt she couldn't say no, and that's the same as nonconsensual sex.

It's a messy topic, and I don't claim to have any of the answers here.  I don't know what Louis CK's accusers felt, but if enough of them tell the same story about being pressured into things they didn't want, then dude needs to check himself.  Part of being a decent human being is learning from your mistakes, and if you accidentally freak a woman out by whipping out your junk, you're supposed to learn to not whip out your junk anymore unless you're absolutely sure she's going to be cool with it.

Fair enough, I see where you're coming from now.

To the bolded part, how is the proposer supposed to know if they are saying yes for real, or if they are saying so under perceived duress? 

I know there's a big stigma right now about "blaming the victim", but at some point people do have to take some responsibility for what they allow to happen. These women weren't raped in an alley at knife-point. So, you did sexual things you didn't want to do because for some reason you thought you should. Well, that's at least partially on you. No doubt it's partially on the guy as well for misreading the situation and perhaps taking advantage, but it's partially on you as well. Unless you are being physically forced, you DO have a choice. Whether or not you see that is another issue, but it's unfair to put all the blame on guys who only got "consent" when they are apparently supposed to be getting "enthusiastic consent".

Feeling like you can't say no for career reasons is not the same as saying no.

It seems as though Louis CK knew this himself. As he says in his statement, he knew he was in a position of power in his field.

He knew he was taking advantage.

He knew. You are asking how someone should know. He is admitting he did.

And he did it anyway.

So...

How about the onus being on people in positions of power, to recognize when they are taking advantage?



Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

sol

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2017, 07:51:52 PM »
Do guys sort of get a pass because... they’re guys?

Absolutely not.

But I think there are gray areas, where some people struggle.  Have you ever had sex with a drunk man?  Because men have absolutely been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes while drunk, and then no while sober the next day.  Men have been convicted of rape within a marriage, where they thought consent was implied and it clearly wasn't.  Men have been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes and then lost consciousness during sex, because they could no longer offer ongoing consent and might have changed their minds or refused a second round.

And social pressures have made this issue worse, by teaching women that they aren't supposed to "like" sex because that somehow compromises their purity, and teaching men that women are naturally reticent and they are supposed to be the "pursuer".  This stereotypical dynamic sets up situations in which two people who both want to have sex can do so without the woman ever explicitly saying yes, and in some cases that's fine for both of them afterwards and in some cases it's not.  Some people prefer to be totally passive sex partners, and thus never reach the "enthusiastic consent" threshold because they prefer their partner to do all of the work while they play dead fish.

But the assault claims that brought down most of these guys don't even revolve around sex, just unwanted touching.  And I think it's pretty normal for a person who feels they have excess social capital or superior social standing to make sexual advances on people of lower status, up to and including unwanted touching.  Men do it when they feel more rich and powerful than a woman.  Women do it when they feel they are far more attractive than a man.  Both genders do it when dealing with a younger person.  I'm not defending it, I'm just saying it's how our sexual dynamics are currently practiced.

These are debates we need to have publicly, because there are apparently a ton of creepers out there who aren't playing by the same rules as the rest of us, and a lot of people are feeling violated because boundaries weren't clearly defined.

Kris

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2017, 07:56:34 PM »
Do guys sort of get a pass because... they’re guys?

Absolutely not.

But I think there are gray areas, where some people struggle.  Have you ever had sex with a drunk man?  Because men have absolutely been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes while drunk, and then no while sober the next day.  Men have been convicted of rape within a marriage, where they thought consent was implied and it clearly wasn't.  Men have been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes and then lost consciousness during sex, because they could no longer offer ongoing consent and might have changed their minds or refused a second round.

And social pressures have made this issue worse, by teaching women that they aren't supposed to "like" sex because that somehow compromises their purity, and teaching men that women are naturally reticent and they are supposed to be the "pursuer".  This stereotypical dynamic sets up situations in which two people who both want to have sex can do so without the woman ever explicitly saying yes, and in some cases that's fine for both of them afterwards and in some cases it's not.  Some people prefer to be totally passive sex partners, and thus never reach the "enthusiastic consent" threshold because they prefer their partner to do all of the work while they play dead fish.

But the assault claims that brought down most of these guys don't even revolve around sex, just unwanted touching.  And I think it's pretty normal for a person who feels they have excess social capital or superior social standing to make sexual advances on people of lower status, up to and including unwanted touching.  Men do it when they feel more rich and powerful than a woman.  Women do it when they feel they are far more attractive than a man.  Both genders do it when dealing with a younger person.  I'm not defending it, I'm just saying it's how our sexual dynamics are currently practiced.

These are debates we need to have publicly, because there are apparently a ton of creepers out there who aren't playing by the same rules as the rest of us, and a lot of people are feeling violated because boundaries weren't clearly defined.

Normal.

Maybe.

But not okay. Not at all.

So, I guess I would say, Sol...

That if you say you aren’t defending it... then maybe stop defending it.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

forumname123

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2017, 08:05:37 PM »
Do guys sort of get a pass because... they’re guys?

Absolutely not.

But I think there are gray areas, where some people struggle.  Have you ever had sex with a drunk man?  Because men have absolutely been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes while drunk, and then no while sober the next day.  Men have been convicted of rape within a marriage, where they thought consent was implied and it clearly wasn't.  Men have been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes and then lost consciousness during sex, because they could no longer offer ongoing consent and might have changed their minds or refused a second round.

And social pressures have made this issue worse, by teaching women that they aren't supposed to "like" sex because that somehow compromises their purity, and teaching men that women are naturally reticent and they are supposed to be the "pursuer".  This stereotypical dynamic sets up situations in which two people who both want to have sex can do so without the woman ever explicitly saying yes, and in some cases that's fine for both of them afterwards and in some cases it's not.  Some people prefer to be totally passive sex partners, and thus never reach the "enthusiastic consent" threshold because they prefer their partner to do all of the work while they play dead fish.

But the assault claims that brought down most of these guys don't even revolve around sex, just unwanted touching.  And I think it's pretty normal for a person who feels they have excess social capital or superior social standing to make sexual advances on people of lower status, up to and including unwanted touching.  Men do it when they feel more rich and powerful than a woman.  Women do it when they feel they are far more attractive than a man.  Both genders do it when dealing with a younger person.  I'm not defending it, I'm just saying it's how our sexual dynamics are currently practiced.

These are debates we need to have publicly, because there are apparently a ton of creepers out there who aren't playing by the same rules as the rest of us, and a lot of people are feeling violated because boundaries weren't clearly defined.

Normal.

Maybe.

But not okay. Not at all.

So, I guess I would say, Sol...

That if you say you aren’t defending it... then maybe stop defending it.


Kris, why is there no onus on the women to say what they mean and stand their ground? They made mistakes too (at least in the cases I'm familiar with).

wenchsenior

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2017, 08:09:18 PM »
As a woman, it's great that sexual harassment is starting to become socially unacceptable with real consequences. Just starting, but hey, gotta start somewhere.

Other things that it would be great to address:
-Calling women "honey", "sweetie", "sugar", "lovey", "kitten", or any of the dozens of other terms that men use, sometimes unthinkingly, without the clear permission of the woman. Unless you're allowed to sleep in my bed, use my NAME. Anything else is sexist.
-Catcalling women in public.
-Assuming that just because a woman is smiling or being friendly that she must be into you.
-Thinking that if a woman doesn't scream "no" that she must actually want it. Also goes with saying "no" but really meaning "yes".
-Blaming women for the bad behavior of men.
-Holding up foot traffic by insisting that women go first. Also insisting on opening doors when it was the woman who got there first. Don't even THINK about running to get ahead of a woman just to open the door.
-Paying women less for the same work.
-Assuming that women are incapable of doing something simply because they are women.
-Women doing most of the housework, childcare, and general household management while men don't. This is getting better, but we're not to equality yet.
-Unspoken assumptions or prejudices that women can't do "men's work". Things like plumbing, electrical, construction, being a doctor instead of a nurse, pilots, etc.
-Denying women appropriate health care and the right to make decisions about her body, without anyone else's moral judgement.
-Attitudes that women belong in the house caring for children.

There's more of course. But for anyone who doesn't get this - the inferiority of women has literally been baked into Western culture over thousands of years. I can't speak for non-Western cultures, but I would be very surprised if they were any different. Pretty much everything you've ever been told about how people should be behave is probably unequal.

You know, I actually have a lot of sympathy for thoughtful men, trying to navigate things. I find it kind of amazing that you are listing something that, until very recently, was drilled into well-mannered boys' heads as POLITE and a sign of proper upbringing, and classifying it alongside actual assault.   Let's get some perspective here.

I mean, my husband is a young boomer age dude, who would not think of doing anything else on your list.  But he struggles with the 'open door for the lady/walk on the traffic side/assist with unwieldy packages/stand when an un-introduced woman enters the room'.  Not because he's so desperate to do those things (he understands the cultural assumptions of patriarchy and sexism that might have contributed to development of some of these customs), but because years of early conditioning trained him to think he was an asshole if he did NOT do those things.  So now, he has to second guess every one of those impulses that were drilled in when he was young, and wonder if he's an asshole no matter what he does. 

It bums me out.  I've had some bad experiences with men over the years...tons of gross and inappropriate comments, a minor technical assault against me which was definitely technically pedophilia, flashers, callers, cat-calls.  Thankfully nothing worse.  So it's not like I've been sheltered or don't see or believe this stuff happens and we should try to acknowledge and prevent it.  But it is really asking a lot for every person to consciously check and examine every impulse, sexual or friendly or old fashioned or whatever, under every single circumstance conceivable.  I think we've got to get some perspective, I'm just not sure where the line should be drawn.

Kris

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2017, 08:10:16 PM »
Do guys sort of get a pass because... they’re guys?

Absolutely not.

But I think there are gray areas, where some people struggle.  Have you ever had sex with a drunk man?  Because men have absolutely been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes while drunk, and then no while sober the next day.  Men have been convicted of rape within a marriage, where they thought consent was implied and it clearly wasn't.  Men have been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes and then lost consciousness during sex, because they could no longer offer ongoing consent and might have changed their minds or refused a second round.

And social pressures have made this issue worse, by teaching women that they aren't supposed to "like" sex because that somehow compromises their purity, and teaching men that women are naturally reticent and they are supposed to be the "pursuer".  This stereotypical dynamic sets up situations in which two people who both want to have sex can do so without the woman ever explicitly saying yes, and in some cases that's fine for both of them afterwards and in some cases it's not.  Some people prefer to be totally passive sex partners, and thus never reach the "enthusiastic consent" threshold because they prefer their partner to do all of the work while they play dead fish.

But the assault claims that brought down most of these guys don't even revolve around sex, just unwanted touching.  And I think it's pretty normal for a person who feels they have excess social capital or superior social standing to make sexual advances on people of lower status, up to and including unwanted touching.  Men do it when they feel more rich and powerful than a woman.  Women do it when they feel they are far more attractive than a man.  Both genders do it when dealing with a younger person.  I'm not defending it, I'm just saying it's how our sexual dynamics are currently practiced.

These are debates we need to have publicly, because there are apparently a ton of creepers out there who aren't playing by the same rules as the rest of us, and a lot of people are feeling violated because boundaries weren't clearly defined.

Normal.

Maybe.

But not okay. Not at all.

So, I guess I would say, Sol...

That if you say you aren’t defending it... then maybe stop defending it.


Kris, why is there no onus on the women to say what they mean and stand their ground? They made mistakes too (at least in the cases I'm familiar with).

Again.

Louis CK himself points out that there is a power dynamic in play here that made it difficult for a woman in the comedy industry to say no without fear of repercussions that might spell the end of her career.

Even the perpetrator understands this. He is explaining it to you.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

forumname123

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2017, 08:12:39 PM »
Do guys sort of get a pass because... they’re guys?

Absolutely not.

But I think there are gray areas, where some people struggle.  Have you ever had sex with a drunk man?  Because men have absolutely been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes while drunk, and then no while sober the next day.  Men have been convicted of rape within a marriage, where they thought consent was implied and it clearly wasn't.  Men have been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes and then lost consciousness during sex, because they could no longer offer ongoing consent and might have changed their minds or refused a second round.

And social pressures have made this issue worse, by teaching women that they aren't supposed to "like" sex because that somehow compromises their purity, and teaching men that women are naturally reticent and they are supposed to be the "pursuer".  This stereotypical dynamic sets up situations in which two people who both want to have sex can do so without the woman ever explicitly saying yes, and in some cases that's fine for both of them afterwards and in some cases it's not.  Some people prefer to be totally passive sex partners, and thus never reach the "enthusiastic consent" threshold because they prefer their partner to do all of the work while they play dead fish.

But the assault claims that brought down most of these guys don't even revolve around sex, just unwanted touching.  And I think it's pretty normal for a person who feels they have excess social capital or superior social standing to make sexual advances on people of lower status, up to and including unwanted touching.  Men do it when they feel more rich and powerful than a woman.  Women do it when they feel they are far more attractive than a man.  Both genders do it when dealing with a younger person.  I'm not defending it, I'm just saying it's how our sexual dynamics are currently practiced.

These are debates we need to have publicly, because there are apparently a ton of creepers out there who aren't playing by the same rules as the rest of us, and a lot of people are feeling violated because boundaries weren't clearly defined.

Normal.

Maybe.

But not okay. Not at all.

So, I guess I would say, Sol...

That if you say you aren’t defending it... then maybe stop defending it.


Kris, why is there no onus on the women to say what they mean and stand their ground? They made mistakes too (at least in the cases I'm familiar with).

Again.

Louis CK himself points out that there is a power dynamic in play here that made it difficult for a woman in the comedy industry to say no without fear of repercussions that might spell the end of her career.

Even the perpetrator understands this. He is explaining it to you.

Tip: prioritize your principles and basic human dignity over your career, and watch this particular problem disappear. They were given a choice and they made the wrong one, for the wrong reasons.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 08:14:58 PM by forumname123 »

Kris

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2017, 08:16:31 PM »
Do guys sort of get a pass because... they’re guys?

Absolutely not.

But I think there are gray areas, where some people struggle.  Have you ever had sex with a drunk man?  Because men have absolutely been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes while drunk, and then no while sober the next day.  Men have been convicted of rape within a marriage, where they thought consent was implied and it clearly wasn't.  Men have been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes and then lost consciousness during sex, because they could no longer offer ongoing consent and might have changed their minds or refused a second round.

And social pressures have made this issue worse, by teaching women that they aren't supposed to "like" sex because that somehow compromises their purity, and teaching men that women are naturally reticent and they are supposed to be the "pursuer".  This stereotypical dynamic sets up situations in which two people who both want to have sex can do so without the woman ever explicitly saying yes, and in some cases that's fine for both of them afterwards and in some cases it's not.  Some people prefer to be totally passive sex partners, and thus never reach the "enthusiastic consent" threshold because they prefer their partner to do all of the work while they play dead fish.

But the assault claims that brought down most of these guys don't even revolve around sex, just unwanted touching.  And I think it's pretty normal for a person who feels they have excess social capital or superior social standing to make sexual advances on people of lower status, up to and including unwanted touching.  Men do it when they feel more rich and powerful than a woman.  Women do it when they feel they are far more attractive than a man.  Both genders do it when dealing with a younger person.  I'm not defending it, I'm just saying it's how our sexual dynamics are currently practiced.

These are debates we need to have publicly, because there are apparently a ton of creepers out there who aren't playing by the same rules as the rest of us, and a lot of people are feeling violated because boundaries weren't clearly defined.

Normal.

Maybe.

But not okay. Not at all.

So, I guess I would say, Sol...

That if you say you aren’t defending it... then maybe stop defending it.


Kris, why is there no onus on the women to say what they mean and stand their ground? They made mistakes too (at least in the cases I'm familiar with).

Again.

Louis CK himself points out that there is a power dynamic in play here that made it difficult for a woman in the comedy industry to say no without fear of repercussions that might spell the end of her career.

Even the perpetrator understands this. He is explaining it to you.

Tip: prioritize your principles and basic human dignity over your career, and watch this particular problem disappear. They were given a choice and they made the wrong one, for the wrong reasons.

I am amazed that you are saying this, in implicit defense of Louis CK, without a hint of irony.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

forumname123

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2017, 08:19:00 PM »
Do guys sort of get a pass because... they’re guys?

Absolutely not.

But I think there are gray areas, where some people struggle.  Have you ever had sex with a drunk man?  Because men have absolutely been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes while drunk, and then no while sober the next day.  Men have been convicted of rape within a marriage, where they thought consent was implied and it clearly wasn't.  Men have been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes and then lost consciousness during sex, because they could no longer offer ongoing consent and might have changed their minds or refused a second round.

And social pressures have made this issue worse, by teaching women that they aren't supposed to "like" sex because that somehow compromises their purity, and teaching men that women are naturally reticent and they are supposed to be the "pursuer".  This stereotypical dynamic sets up situations in which two people who both want to have sex can do so without the woman ever explicitly saying yes, and in some cases that's fine for both of them afterwards and in some cases it's not.  Some people prefer to be totally passive sex partners, and thus never reach the "enthusiastic consent" threshold because they prefer their partner to do all of the work while they play dead fish.

But the assault claims that brought down most of these guys don't even revolve around sex, just unwanted touching.  And I think it's pretty normal for a person who feels they have excess social capital or superior social standing to make sexual advances on people of lower status, up to and including unwanted touching.  Men do it when they feel more rich and powerful than a woman.  Women do it when they feel they are far more attractive than a man.  Both genders do it when dealing with a younger person.  I'm not defending it, I'm just saying it's how our sexual dynamics are currently practiced.

These are debates we need to have publicly, because there are apparently a ton of creepers out there who aren't playing by the same rules as the rest of us, and a lot of people are feeling violated because boundaries weren't clearly defined.

Normal.

Maybe.

But not okay. Not at all.

So, I guess I would say, Sol...

That if you say you aren’t defending it... then maybe stop defending it.


Kris, why is there no onus on the women to say what they mean and stand their ground? They made mistakes too (at least in the cases I'm familiar with).

Again.

Louis CK himself points out that there is a power dynamic in play here that made it difficult for a woman in the comedy industry to say no without fear of repercussions that might spell the end of her career.

Even the perpetrator understands this. He is explaining it to you.

Tip: prioritize your principles and basic human dignity over your career, and watch this particular problem disappear. They were given a choice and they made the wrong one, for the wrong reasons.

I am amazed that you are saying this, in implicit defense of Louis CK, without a hint of irony.

And I'm amazed that while I am not condoning Louis' actions, you refuse to entertain the idea that maybe if a woman doesn't want a man to jack off in front of her she should simply say "no" instead of "yes". I guess we're just 2 amazed people.

Kris

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2017, 08:24:55 PM »
Do guys sort of get a pass because... they’re guys?

Absolutely not.

But I think there are gray areas, where some people struggle.  Have you ever had sex with a drunk man?  Because men have absolutely been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes while drunk, and then no while sober the next day.  Men have been convicted of rape within a marriage, where they thought consent was implied and it clearly wasn't.  Men have been convicted of rape in cases where a woman said yes and then lost consciousness during sex, because they could no longer offer ongoing consent and might have changed their minds or refused a second round.

And social pressures have made this issue worse, by teaching women that they aren't supposed to "like" sex because that somehow compromises their purity, and teaching men that women are naturally reticent and they are supposed to be the "pursuer".  This stereotypical dynamic sets up situations in which two people who both want to have sex can do so without the woman ever explicitly saying yes, and in some cases that's fine for both of them afterwards and in some cases it's not.  Some people prefer to be totally passive sex partners, and thus never reach the "enthusiastic consent" threshold because they prefer their partner to do all of the work while they play dead fish.

But the assault claims that brought down most of these guys don't even revolve around sex, just unwanted touching.  And I think it's pretty normal for a person who feels they have excess social capital or superior social standing to make sexual advances on people of lower status, up to and including unwanted touching.  Men do it when they feel more rich and powerful than a woman.  Women do it when they feel they are far more attractive than a man.  Both genders do it when dealing with a younger person.  I'm not defending it, I'm just saying it's how our sexual dynamics are currently practiced.

These are debates we need to have publicly, because there are apparently a ton of creepers out there who aren't playing by the same rules as the rest of us, and a lot of people are feeling violated because boundaries weren't clearly defined.

Normal.

Maybe.

But not okay. Not at all.

So, I guess I would say, Sol...

That if you say you aren’t defending it... then maybe stop defending it.


Kris, why is there no onus on the women to say what they mean and stand their ground? They made mistakes too (at least in the cases I'm familiar with).

Again.

Louis CK himself points out that there is a power dynamic in play here that made it difficult for a woman in the comedy industry to say no without fear of repercussions that might spell the end of her career.

Even the perpetrator understands this. He is explaining it to you.

Tip: prioritize your principles and basic human dignity over your career, and watch this particular problem disappear. They were given a choice and they made the wrong one, for the wrong reasons.

I am amazed that you are saying this, in implicit defense of Louis CK, without a hint of irony.

And I'm amazed that while I am not condoning Louis' actions, you refuse to entertain the idea that maybe if a woman doesn't want a man to jack off in front of her she should simply say "no" instead of "yes". I guess we're just 2 amazed people.

Like I said, Louis CK, in his “apology,” explained precisely why.  I am a fifty year-old woman. I have already “entertained” this idea for about thirty-eight years.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

forumname123

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2017, 08:25:05 PM »
Look, I'm as much against sexual assault as the next person. It's bad, it's wrong. Just yucky, don't do it. You shouldn't use your position to take advantage of people, and you shouldn't force people to do things they don't want to do.

But maaaaaaaybe....

Maybe if you don't want to do sexual things, you should be expected to make that enthusiastically clear. If somebody ignores that and keeps pressing, then that's a separate issue.

The feeling that you can't say no to sex for career reasons is just not acceptable to me.

Kris

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2017, 08:32:01 PM »
Look, I'm as much against sexual assault as the next person. It's bad, it's wrong. Just yucky, don't do it. You shouldn't use your position to take advantage of people, and you shouldn't force people to do things they don't want to do.

But maaaaaaaybe....

Maybe if you don't want to do sexual things, you should be expected to make that enthusiastically clear. If somebody ignores that and keeps pressing, then that's a separate issue.

The feeling that you can't say no to sex for career reasons is just not acceptable to me.

Well. I’m not sure white men have generally, historically had to deal with the reality of saying no to sexual advances being a career ender.

For women, however, that has been a reality about as long as they have been in the workplace.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

forumname123

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2017, 08:33:54 PM »
Look, I'm as much against sexual assault as the next person. It's bad, it's wrong. Just yucky, don't do it. You shouldn't use your position to take advantage of people, and you shouldn't force people to do things they don't want to do.

But maaaaaaaybe....

Maybe if you don't want to do sexual things, you should be expected to make that enthusiastically clear. If somebody ignores that and keeps pressing, then that's a separate issue.

The feeling that you can't say no to sex for career reasons is just not acceptable to me.

Well. I’m not sure white men have generally, historically had to deal with the reality of saying no to sexual advances being a career ender.

For women, however, that has been a reality about as long as they have been in the workplace.

Is it extreme to the point that if given the choice, you would choose the unwanted sex to save your career? Do you actually think that's a reasonable response? It's not even like he gave them an ultimatum or anything direct. The threat to their careers was their own misinterpretation of events. Both sides made errors of interpretation.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 08:35:45 PM by forumname123 »

Kris

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Re: Louis CK apologizes to everyone
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2017, 08:37:46 PM »
Look, I'm as much against sexual assault as the next person. It's bad, it's wrong. Just yucky, don't do it. You shouldn't use your position to take advantage of people, and you shouldn't force people to do things they don't want to do.

But maaaaaaaybe....

Maybe if you don't want to do sexual things, you should be expected to make that enthusiastically clear. If somebody ignores that and keeps pressing, then that's a separate issue.

The feeling that you can't say no to sex for career reasons is just not acceptable to me.

Well. I’m not sure white men have generally, historically had to deal with the reality of saying no to sexual advances being a career ender.

For women, however, that has been a reality about as long as they have been in the workplace.

Is it extreme to the point that if given the choice, you would choose the unwanted sex to save your career? Do you actually think that's a reasonable response? It's not even like he gave them an ultimatum or anything direct. The threat to their careers was their own misinterpretation of events. Both sides made errors of interpretation.

Uh-huh.

I’m done.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.