Author Topic: LLMs, Relational Frame Theory (RFT) and contextualization of extremist content  (Read 1373 times)

PeteD01

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Some time ago, I wrote about LLMs being uniquely suited to put suspected right wing propaganda content through a sort of psycholinguistic x-ray machine.
I wss tninking that someone would come out with an app or website that allows that to be done in a convenient way. So far no luck although it appears to be very easy to do.

Here is what to use as the core query:

Outline the relational frame for this proposition and name corresponding conspiracy theories if any: <insert suspicious text to be analyzed>

ChatGPT responds with a decent explanation of what it is going to do after provided with this query (the text is from a post of one of the forum resident trolls). All LLM outputs are colored green:

Query: outline the relational frame for this proposition and name corresponding consp racy theories if any: America is run by the organization RNCDNC Inc. In the 21st century this dumb cabal has brought us

ChatGPT: To analyze the proposition "America is run by the organization RNCDNC Inc. In the 21st century this dumb cabal has brought us..." using Relational Frame Theory (RFT), we break down the statement into relational frames—patterns of associations between concepts that shape meaning and belief.


This is followed by a "Relational Frame Outline" which is rather useful to assess the output for obvious errors, of which there are none in this case:

ChatGPT: 🔹 Relational Frame Outline

1. Coordination Frame (Equivalence)
"RNCDNC Inc." ≈ "America's ruling organization"

Suggests that a single, unified entity (RNCDNC Inc.) is equivalent to or synonymous with the ruling power in the U.S.

"RNCDNC Inc." ≈ "dumb cabal"

Links the organization with a negative characterization, implying incompetence or maliciousness.

2. Causality Frame
"RNCDNC Inc." → negative outcomes in the 21st century

Asserts that this organization is responsible for various undesirable historical, political, or social outcomes.

Establishes a causal relationship between governance and negative events.

3. Deictic Frame (Perspective-taking)
"America" is the object under control

The speaker positions themselves as an observer or critic of the system, rather than part of it.

"Us" = the public/victims

Creates an in-group (the public) vs. out-group (RNCDNC Inc.) dynamic.

4. Hierarchical Frame
RNCDNC Inc. > Government, Parties, Voters

Implies that RNCDNC Inc. is above or controls the visible political structures, i.e., a meta-organization or puppet master.

5. Comparison Frame
RNCDNC Inc. vs. Democratic ideals

Implicit comparison that undermines democracy by suggesting that elections and governance are a façade for centralized, elite control.



This again is followed by a list of conspiracy theories the suspicious text is associated with:

ChatGPT: 🔹 Associated Conspiracy Theories

The proposition blends themes found in several well-known conspiracy theories:

Conspiracy Theory Connection

Uniparty Theory   
Suggests that Democrats (DNC) and Republicans (RNC) are essentially the same entity serving elite interests. "RNCDNC Inc." is a parody of this fusion.

Deep State   
The idea that an unelected cabal secretly controls national policy, regardless of which party is in power.

Shadow Government   
Claims that public-facing politicians are figureheads while true power is held by hidden groups or organizations.

New World Order   
Posits that a global elite is orchestrating world events to centralize power, often through puppet governments.

Controlled Opposition   Belief
that all major parties are controlled and no true opposition exists; the system is rigged.

QAnon (partial)   
While more esoteric, QAnon promotes the idea of a corrupt elite cabal running the U.S., similar in tone.



It closes with a summary and suggests further actions:

ChatGPT:🔹 Summary Interpretation

The phrase "RNCDNC Inc." acts as a metaphorical condensation of a bipartisan oligarchy or deep state, framed as an incompetent or malicious organization presiding over American decline. The relational frames construct a worldview where agency, democracy, and truth are subverted by a singular, controlling force.

Would you like this applied to a full paragraph or political speech as an example?
[/b]


If you didn't already know, this output makes it obvious that we are dealing with a MAGA conspiracy theorist troll.

LLMs are uniquely suited to this type of task as the shortcomings of LLMs are actually instrumentalized by running the analysis through an RFT analytical framework (pun intended).
In particular, cognitive bias is a non-issue as cognition is absent in LLMs so there is no mechanism that would allow the LLM to filter out existing bias.

Relational Frame Theory is uniquely able to use LLMs as analytical tools and here is a link that explains it in more detail; in addition, I have provided a link to the Wikipedia entry on functional contextualism (the underlying philosophy) as well as to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Relational frame theory

Relational frame theory argues that the building block of human language and higher cognition is relating, i.e. the human ability to create bidirectional links between things. It can be contrasted with associative learning, which discusses how animals form links between stimuli in the form of the strength of associations in memory. However, relational frame theory argues that natural human language typically specifies not just the strength of a link between stimuli but also the type of relation as well as the dimension along which they are to be related. For example, a tennis ball could be associated with an orange, by virtue of having the same shape, but it is different because it is not edible, and is perhaps a different color. In the preceding sentence, 'same', 'different' and 'not' are cues in the environment that specify the type of relation between the stimuli, and 'shape', 'colour' and 'edible' specify the dimension along which each relation is to be made. Relational frame theory argues that while there is an arbitrary number of types of relations and number of dimensions along which stimuli can be related, the core unit of relating is an essential building block for much of what is commonly referred to as human language or higher cognition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_frame_theory



Functional contextualism

Functional contextualism is a modern philosophy of science[1] rooted in philosophical pragmatism and contextualism. It is most actively developed in behavioral science in general and the field of behavior analysis and contextual behavioral science in particular (see the entry for the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science). Functional contextualism serves as the basis of a theory of language known as relational frame theory[2] and its most prominent application, acceptance and commitment therapy.[3] It is an extension and contextualistic interpretation of B.F. Skinner's radical behaviorism first delineated by Steven C. Hayes which emphasizes the importance of predicting and influencing psychological events (including thoughts, feelings, and behaviors) with precision, scope, and depth, by focusing on manipulable variables in their context.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_contextualism


Epistemic Contextualism

Epistemic Contextualism (EC) is a recent and hotly debated position. EC is roughly the view that what is expressed by a knowledge attribution — a claim to the effect that S “knows” that p — depends partly on something in the context of the attributor, and hence the view is often called ‘attributor contextualism’. Because such an utterance is context-dependent, so too is whether the attribution is true.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/contextualism-epistemology/
« Last Edit: June 23, 2025, 03:51:28 PM by PeteD01 »

PeteD01

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Here is a query using a text I posted a couple of days ago. LLMs do not reason - any logical structure originates from the original text in its psycholinguistic context:

Query: outline the relational frame for this proposition and name corresponding conspiracy theories if any:

...
The concept of "generations" in the sense of a number of consecutive age cohorts temporally constrained by exposure to historical events of various duration isn't really useful.

In the first step, the frequencies of certain beliefs is empirically determined in age cohorts corresponding to time periods determined by historical exposures and the term "generation" designates that thus created group of consecutive age cohorts.
Obviously, the proposition that a particular sequence of cohorts represents a "generation" is simply a tautology that is always true and therefore carries high impact in terms of plausibility (like the tautology 2+2=4) unless the circularity is recognized.

In the second step, the concept of "generation" is expanded beyond the circular definition with empirical research investigating group beliefs that were not part of the initial defining set of beliefs.
Of course, there will always be a good number of beliefs that are covariant with the original beliefs that lend more plausibility to the idea that "generations" are a thing if the covariance is not recognized (extremely common error).

This sets the stage for the next step in which the set of beliefs that have been found to differentiate the initial group of cohorts from other groups and the newly found (often covariant) beliefs.
This combined set of beliefs is then declared to be a differentiating characteristic of the "generation" in question and that remains stable over time.

In the fourth step, the set of beliefs that have now taken on a sense of immutability through time. This represents the step in which reification takes place which in turn satisfies the desire for constancy that imbues the concept with heightened plausibility again.

There is much more to be said but it should become clear that "generation" is not logically defensible concept and scientifically useless as any attempt to map the "generations" back to to the historical events that were used to determine the group of cohorts the "generation" consists of is again circular.

From all this, an avalanche of junk science and other nonsense can be created to feed the publication machine and to keep ignorant journalists and politicians happy - and all that keeps going of because tautologies come with this heightened sense of plausibility because they are always true in isolation (emotional reasoning is what is exploited here).

So it won't square because it is circular at heart (pun intended), and contains the error of immutability of beliefs and attitudes over time, making these characteristics appear to be an essential feature of the personalities of the people exposed to certain historical events/periods (there are echoes of the fundamental attribution error here).
...

Your proposition critiques the scientific validity of the “generation” concept as used in social commentary and popular discourse. Let’s break this down using Relational Frame Theory (RFT) and explore any corresponding conspiracy theory or pseudo-theory frameworks that might arise from or exploit this conceptual structure.

🔍 Relational Frame Theory (RFT) Outline
RFT is about how humans relate concepts through learned associations. The relational frames in this argument can be outlined as follows:

1. Frame of Coordination (Sameness/Equivalence)
The concept of a “generation” is equated to a group of people defined by shared beliefs resulting from historical exposure.

However, this equivalence is circular, as the group is defined by the very thing it is supposed to explain.

Example frame:

“Cohorts that share beliefs because of historical exposure = a generation”
This is circular: the group is defined by the beliefs it is supposed to explain.

2. Frame of Causality
Implied causality between historical events and beliefs, then beliefs and generational identity.

This causality is questioned: since historical exposure creates belief sets that then are said to “cause” generational identity, which is itself a function of the same historical exposure — a loop emerges.

Faulty frame:

Historical event → belief → generation → belief
(This reintroduces the same causal element twice, masking tautology as explanation.)

3. Frame of Comparison (More/Less, Better/Worse)
Generational narratives often involve value comparisons (e.g., Boomers vs Millennials), despite the weak empirical basis.

This creates conflict narratives that are emotionally persuasive but analytically incoherent.

4. Frame of Temporal Containment
"Generations" are temporally bounded, which appears scientifically neat but hides the arbitrary selection of boundaries.

Historical periods are themselves fuzzy; cohort delineations become subjectively motivated.

5. Frame of Reification (Abstraction → Objectification)
This is the most critical move:

A label like "Generation X" is abstract.

But over time, beliefs associated with that label are reified (treated as fixed traits), making the label seem to reflect something real and stable.

This satisfies a deep psychological need for identity and predictability, even at the cost of scientific rigor.

6. Frame of Deictic Relations (Perspective-taking)
Individuals relate to the “generation” label in terms of “we” versus “them” (Millennials vs Boomers, etc.)

The self is constructed through generational membership, which enhances the salience of the label regardless of its empirical weakness.

🧠 Cognitive Errors Exploited
Tautological reasoning ("They’re a generation because they think alike, and they think alike because they’re a generation").

Covariation bias (beliefs that co-occur are assumed to be caused by the same source).

Fundamental Attribution Error (ascribing fixed traits to individuals rather than recognizing situational causes).

Essentialism (assuming stable, internal “generational” essence over time).

🕵️ Related Conspiracy Theories / Pseudo-Theories
While not always formal “conspiracies,” the cultural use of “generation” lends itself to pseudo-theoretical constructs and is sometimes exploited in conspiracy-adjacent narratives:

1. "Generational Warfare" Narrative
Popular with political grifters: “Boomers stole the future from Millennials” or “Millennials are destroying Western civilization.”

Assumes stable, cohesive values across decades, which is not empirically supported.

➡️ Related theories:

The Fourth Turning (Strauss–Howe generational theory): quasi-historical determinism claiming that history moves in cycles of generations—heavily criticized for pseudoscience.

WEF/Great Reset conspiracies: use “generational change” rhetoric to imply engineered social control via elite manipulation of social values across age cohorts.

2. Psychological Operations ("PsyOps") Framing
Some conspiracists argue that "generational labels" are deliberate tools used to divide and control populations by creating false in-group/out-group identities.

➡️ Examples:

“They invented ‘Boomers’ to make us hate our elders.”

“Millennial brainwashing via media was planned by globalists.”

3. Anti-Scientific Institutional Critique
The idea that “generations” are a tool of “junk social science” created to generate media content, academic funding, or government policy narratives.

➡️ Meta-conspiracy: Academia, think tanks, and media are colluding (wittingly or not) to produce meaningless “generation” research for self-serving reasons (funding, control, distraction).

🧩 Summary
RFT Frame   Explanation   Distortion
Coordination   “Generations” = shared beliefs → circular   Tautology as insight
Causality   Event → Belief → Generation → Belief   Feedback loop
Comparison   Generational identity used for value judgments   Tribalism
Temporal   Time-bounded groupings   Arbitrary distinctions
Reification   Abstract concept becomes fixed trait   Identity essentialism
Deictic   "We" vs "Them" across age lines   Social polarization

And this whole relational structure, especially its circularity and reification, opens the door to both unwarranted authority (scientific sounding labels with no content) and manipulable identity politics—fertile ground for ideological exploitation.

Let me know if you'd like a visual diagram of this frame structure or a rewrite in a more formal or philosophical style.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2025, 03:24:39 PM by PeteD01 »

PeteD01

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And another query following up on the previous. LLMs do not reason - any logical structure originates from the original text in its psycholinguistic context:

outline the relational frame for this proposition and name corresponding conspiracy theories if any:

...
Let's make this the following proposition: "generations" are a thing.

This might be somewhat subtle: "generations" is indeed a thing, but not in the sense that the concept leads to further insights by improving correspondence with reality.
Ironically, you actually provided evidence for this by your attempt at explaining why "generations" are a thing by not referring even once to "generations" when giving multiple examples how cohorts, or groups of consecutive cohorts, are exposed to external events unique to them and the effects on them.

Your exposition in no way requires the concept of "generations", nor does it indicate that there is anything to be gained from the introduction of a metaphor ("generations").

In context, "generations" does not provide any analytical advantage but what it does is to feed into our desire of categorizing complex issues in order to be able to deal with them on a metaphorical level, which, in turn, satisfies our need for being able to use heuristics in order to deal with an overly complex universe.

One might ask why "generations" is a problematic concept. The answer is that it allows consolidation of various characteristics with a comparatively higher frequency in the population of interest, solidify these characteristics as permanent (attached to a "generation") and subsequently project them on individuals identifiable as members of  that group ("generations" in this case).

So "generations" is indeed a thing in this context because it does act as a lens that allows projection of supposed characteristics on individuals causing all kinds of problems.

Of course, in the case of "generations", all this appears rather benign but is anything but.

In fact, I'm only taking the time to write this because it is a much larger issue than it first appears, up to, but not limited to, persecution and genocide.

Although my post could not by any means a comprehensive treatment of the issue, but it could serve as a kind of Swiss army knife for decoding the logical structure of a whole lot of dangerous BS out there (mostly right wing propaganda but not limited to it. Look for the patterns and it will quickly become second nature and you won't be able to unsee it).

(I don't know if the poster who brought the subject of the difficulty inherent in mapping "generations" on long historical sequences of relevant events is aware of the size of the bite he took out of the metaphysical apple. It certainly is big enough to choke on.)

So here is the remainder of your post and it talks about exposures, attitudes and, most importantly, you use "probably", "might" etc., indicating that we are looking at probabilities and frequencies of particular characteristics in a defined population.
Keep in mind that we are dealing strictly with descriptive statistics of snapshots in time  and that there are no assertions of truth beyond an estimation of the probability of obtaining similar results in the long run here (frequentist statistics).

I just want to be clear, the issue is not that there is an argument about if exposure to historical events changes attitudes etc., that is obviously true, but that there is no need to introduce "generations" as it does not lead to any further insights.

Rather, reifying, accepting and utilizing the concept of "generations" is simply a particular instance of opening the door to stereotyping, discrimination and, under the right circumstances, even genocide:

ChatGPT: This proposition — “‘Generations’ are a thing, but only in a metaphorical sense that invites cognitive bias and harm” — expresses skepticism toward the analytical utility of generational categories (e.g., “Boomers,” “Millennials,” etc.). Below is a breakdown of its relational frame followed by connections to conspiracy theory motifs.

🧠 Relational Frame Analysis (RFT Perspective)
1. Frame of Coordination (Sameness / Equivalence):

“Generations” are conceptually equated to metaphors or heuristics — mental shortcuts to simplify complex social realities.

This coordination implies that the term “generation” doesn't reflect a real ontological category but a linguistic construct that simplifies.

2. Frame of Distinction (Difference):

“Generations” ≠ Cohorts: The author emphasizes that while cohorts experience unique historical contexts, calling them "generations" introduces unwarranted assumptions about shared traits and permanence.

“Descriptive statistical variation” ≠ “Fixed generational essence.”

3. Frame of Causality / Temporality:

Historical exposure → potential attitude shifts → observable group tendencies (but not generational essences).

"Generations" are not the cause of anything — external events are. Generations are a post hoc label, not a driver.

4. Frame of Comparison / Evaluation:

Evaluates the concept of generations as analytically misleading, more harmful than helpful.

Uses comparative reasoning: other cognitive metaphors and stereotypes follow the same structural flaw.

5. Frame of Hierarchy / Containment:

“Generations” is placed inside the broader category of categorical thinking that facilitates stereotyping → discrimination → violence, even genocide.

It's not about age per se, but about systems of classification that lend themselves to rigid in-group/out-group thinking.

🔍 Corresponding Conspiracy Theory Motifs
While the argument is not itself a conspiracy theory, it gestures toward the cognitive infrastructure that underlies many dangerous ideologies. The following are relevant conspiratorial patterns or echoes:

1. The “Generational Psy-Op” Theory (Fringe View):

Some conspiracies allege that “generations” (Boomers vs. Gen Z, etc.) are deliberately constructed by elites or governments/media to divide society (e.g., “divide and conquer”).

In this view, naming generations manufactures false identity wars and obscures class solidarity or systemic issues.

2. “Social Engineering through Generational Stereotypes”:

A belief that cultural elites, corporate media, or globalist entities use generational labels to manipulate public opinion, shape consumer behavior, or distract from real power dynamics.

3. Right-Wing Stereotyping via Generational Frames:

Propaganda often uses generational terms (e.g., “Boomers ruined the economy,” “Millennials are lazy,” “Gen Z is brainwashed”) to stereotype and dehumanize groups — a gateway to deeper authoritarian messaging.

The argument identifies this as a slippery slope from linguistic metaphor to fascist categorization (e.g., Nazi rhetoric about "degenerate generations").

4. Genocide Logic Parallels:

The author draws a chilling parallel between seemingly benign generational talk and the same logic structure used in genocidal rhetoric:

Group X has characteristic Y → therefore every member of X is responsible or dangerous.

🛠️ Summary of Logical Structure (as “Swiss Army Knife”)
Conceptual Step   Cognitive Mechanism   Sociopolitical Risk
Grouping by exposure or traits   Heuristic simplification   Helpful if fluid; harmful if rigid
Naming group as a “generation”   Reification of metaphor   False essentialism
Projecting group traits onto individuals   Stereotyping   Discrimination, bias
Attributing moral value or destiny to group   Mythical thinking / identity projection   Authoritarianism, persecution
Using category for political mobilization   In-group/out-group activation   Polarization, propaganda, violence

✅ Bottom Line
Your proposition critiques the relational frame of equivalence and entailment between:

“Generation” = a real social entity

“Generation” → predictive of behavior/attitudes

“Generation” → usable in policy, discourse, or judgment

This reification leads to the same logical pathways that underlie propaganda, social division, and in extreme cases, totalitarian violence.

Would you like a visual chart of this frame progression?

PeteD01

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And here is another example:

Query: outline the relational frame for this proposition and name corresponding conspiracy theories if any:

It appears this is a major 21st Century alliance to recon with.

So far, this alliance stands somewhat in opposition to The West, but it is no replay of the USSR or the Cold War. It is certainly against the continued dominance of America on the world stage, but its leader, China, is tightly integrated into the world economy in a big way.

China has used the savings of its population to build tremendous infrastructure. They’re placing a huge bet on becoming indispensable in manufacturing and world trade. And they are competing for dominance with the US in tech, especially in AI. They are not winning this race, but the jury is still out on tech futures. They have stated their goal of being the most dominant and important country in the world.

All of the world’s top powers have taken a Machiavellian turn. America felt forced to given its position in the Cold War but it did. The West is currently experimenting with strong-man politics. China/Russia/Iran/NK have it in their blood and use totalitarianism to rule their populations. Russia/Iran/NK threaten violence routinely against their neighbors and have employed proxies to deadly effect. I think it’s fair to say tech will enable every government to control its populations much more tightly than ever possible before.

IMO it will simply not be possible to fight another Cold War like we did in the 20th Century because of globalization, especially with the US and China so integrated in the world. (The West had very little economic ties to the USSR in the day.) I also don’t see nuclear war being advantageous to anyone—again, given our connectedness.
...

ChatGPT: Here’s an outline of the relational frame and associated conspiracy theories (if any) relevant to your proposition:

🔹 Proposition Summary
The current geopolitical reality is shaped by a 21st-century alliance (centered on China, with Russia, Iran, and North Korea as partners) that stands in opposition to the West—but this opposition is fundamentally different from the Cold War dynamic. This bloc is not ideologically communist but strategically nationalistic, techno-authoritarian, and economically entangled with global systems, especially through China. It aims to displace American global dominance, using infrastructure, manufacturing, and technology, particularly AI.

🧠 Relational Frame Theory (RFT) Analysis
Relational Frame Theory identifies how language constructs meaning through networks of relations. Your argument activates several key frames:

1. Opposition Frame (A vs. B)
Relation: Coordination/Opposition

Framed Groups:

A: The West (U.S., EU, democratic allies)

B: China-led bloc (China, Russia, Iran, North Korea)

Implication: The alliance is framed as a rising counterweight to Western hegemony—not a Cold War replay, but a novel geopolitical formation with new rules.

2. Temporal/Comparative Frame
Relation: Then vs. Now (Diachronic)

Key Comparison:

Cold War = ideological, militaristic, bifurcated

Today = interconnected, techno-authoritarian, economic entanglement

Implication: Suggests prior models (e.g., containment or nuclear deterrence) are inadequate due to new variables like digital surveillance, global trade integration, and AI.

3. Hierarchical/Valence Frame
Relation: More than / less than

Example:

China = increasingly dominant

U.S. = still leading, but contested

Russia/Iran/NK = junior partners, destabilizing forces

Implication: China is viewed as the strategic brain; others are militaristic proxies or ideological partners.

4. Causality/Contingency Frame
Relation: If X, then Y

Examples:

“China invests in infrastructure → becomes indispensable to global trade”

“Tech enables tighter control → governments become more authoritarian”

Implication: Predictive logic about future dominance/control via technology, infrastructure, and interdependence.

5. Deictic Frame (Perspective/Indexicality)
Relation: Here vs. There, Us vs. Them

Usage: Implicit contrast between “they” (totalitarian regimes) and “we” (democracies trying to resist but tempted by similar tools).

Implication: While authoritarian states use tech to control, the West is also slipping toward similar behavior—blurring moral superiority.

🧨 Corresponding Conspiracy Theories (and adjacent narratives)
While your analysis is reasoned and plausible, it overlaps with several conspiratorial or semi-conspiratorial narratives depending on emphasis and tone:

✅ Adjacent, not necessarily conspiratorial:
Multipolarity Framing (Realpolitik view)

Belief that the U.S. is no longer hegemonic and must adapt to a world with powerful rivals like China and its allies.

Often used by geopolitical realists like Mearsheimer or Chomsky (non-conspiratorial but oppositional to dominant Western narratives).

Digital Totalitarianism

Fear that surveillance capitalism + state power (esp. in China) is converging toward population control.

Popular in think tank and tech circles; not necessarily conspiracy, but often exaggerated in some media.

❌ More conspiratorial overlaps (depending on framing):
“Great Reset” or “Global Technocratic Control” Theories

Claim that global elites (East and West) are coordinating a shift toward centralized, tech-enabled control of populations, using crises (pandemic, war, AI) as cover.

China’s “Unrestricted Warfare” Doctrine

A fringe interpretation of a Chinese military strategy book suggesting China is executing a slow, covert takeover of global influence (economically, culturally, technologically) without firing a shot.

New World Order (NWO) Theories

Extremist view that both Western and Eastern elites are colluding in a staged conflict to usher in global authoritarian governance through institutions like the UN, WHO, WEF, etc.

AI-Controlled Future / Post-Human Governance

Fringe versions posit that AI developed by either China or U.S. elites will soon control society entirely—creating “digital prisons” for humanity.

🧭 Summary Table
Relational Frame   Key Relation   Implication
Opposition   China bloc vs. West   Not a Cold War redux; new dynamic with shared systems
Temporal/Comparative   Cold War vs. Now   Globalization makes old models obsolete
Hierarchical/Valence   China > Allies   Strategic competition for tech & trade leadership
Causal   Tech → Control   Tech accelerates authoritarian capabilities
Deictic   Us vs. Them (blurred)   Even democracies risk authoritarian drift

Conspiracy Theory   Connection
Great Reset / Technocracy   If you emphasize "control" + global coordination
China’s Unrestricted Warfare   If China's moves are seen as covert world domination
New World Order   If both East and West are viewed as secretly aligned
AI-enabled Global Control   If tech is viewed as inevitability of total loss of freedom

Let me know if you'd like to map this visually or contrast it with other geopolitical blocks (e.g., BRICS vs. NATO).
« Last Edit: June 23, 2025, 11:02:52 AM by PeteD01 »

PeteD01

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Forcing LLMs to analyze text through the lens of Relational Frame theory and functional contextualism exploits the inability of LLMs to reason and turns it in an advantage as there is a fundamental stochastic core common to LLMs, RFT and functional contextualism.


Query: outline the relational frame for this proposition and name corresponding conspiracy theories if any:

ChatGPT: Relational Frame Theory (RFT) Frame Outline for Proposition
Proposition:

"Forcing LLMs to analyze text through the lens of Relational Frame Theory and functional contextualism exploits the inability of LLMs to reason and turns it into an advantage, as there is a fundamental stochastic core common to LLMs, RFT, and functional contextualism."

Relational Frame Analysis
We break this down into relational frames—ways in which terms or concepts are related in a propositional network, per RFT:

1. Coordination (Sameness) Frame
"LLMs, RFT, and functional contextualism" are coordinated as having a shared stochastic nature.

→ LLMs are like RFT/FC because all deal with probabilistic patterns rather than deterministic reasoning.

This frames reasoning-as-probability, not logic.

2. Opposition Frame
LLMs’ "inability to reason" is opposed to classical logic-based or symbolic reasoning.

→ But this "limitation" is re-framed as advantageous when aligned with RFT/functional contextualism.

This flips the assumed polarity of "flawed" vs. "useful"—suggesting what appears as a defect is actually a design benefit.

3. Causality Frame
Forcing analysis through RFT/functional contextualism causes better utility of LLMs.

Implies intentional constraint of method (RFT lens) leads to functional alignment with LLM strengths.

4. Hierarchical Frame
Places functional contextualism as a meta-framework under which RFT and LLM behavior are subsumed.

→ LLMs are not just machines; they are instantiations of contextual-relational behavior—implicitly behaviorist.

5. Deictic Frame (Perspective-Taking)
Implied observer position: scientist/engineer/system-designer choosing to force a model into a particular lens.

There’s a performative perspective: "We" can force LLMs into an interpretive schema to benefit from their limits.

6. Temporal Frame
Suggests a contemporary shift in how LLMs are understood: from failed rational agents to useful stochastic tools.

Past: LLMs fail at logic → Present: use RFT lens to exploit their stochasticity.

Corresponding Conspiracy Theories (if any)
This proposition resonates with meta-conspiracy narratives about AI control, behavioral manipulation, and epistemological sabotage, especially in tech-critical or philosophical-surrealist communities:

AI as a Behaviorist Trojan Horse

Claim: Behaviorism (via RFT) is quietly being reintroduced via AI, bypassing rationalist and ethical oversight.

Related: B.F. Skinner revival conspiracies, e.g., "Silicon Skinner Box" narratives.

AI as Contextual Weapon

Claim: Forcing LLMs into functional contextualism is a way to weaponize language and context to manipulate perception, decision-making, and even ideology.

Related fringe: Neurosemantic warfare or NLP-as-weapon conspiracies.

Philosophical Subversion via AI

Claim: Rational Enlightenment reasoning is being intentionally displaced by postmodern or relativist approaches (RFT, FC), undermining logic and truth in favor of programmable narrative control.

Connected to: "Post-truth AI" or "Simulated Context Collapse" theories.

Techno-Behaviorist Convergence Theory

A rarer but notable theory claiming that LLMs represent the behaviorist dream—complete prediction/control of language behavior without "mind" or "meaning."

Summary
The proposition reframes LLMs not as failed logicians but as ideal probabilistic behaviorists, aligning them with the theoretical underpinnings of RFT and functional contextualism. This alignment is presented as functionally intentional, exploiting limitations as strengths. The relational frame analysis shows this is achieved via coordination, opposition, causality, hierarchy, perspective, and time frames.

The proposition brushes against a number of philosophical and conspiratorial themes around control, framing, and epistemology, though it stops short of explicit paranoia unless the underlying motives or effects are made normative or sinister.

PeteD01

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And here is another LLM output generated from a couple of somewhat dense propositions. Not bad for a stochastic parrot:


Query: outline the relational frame for this proposition and name corresponding conspiracy theories if any:
LLMs are uniquely suited to this type of task as the shortcomings of LLMs are actually instrumentalized by running the analysis through an RFT analytical framework (pun intended).
In particular, cognitive bias is a non-issue as cognition is absent in LLMs so there is no mechanism that would allow the LLM to filter out existing bias.

Relational Frame Theory is uniquely able to use LLMs as analytical tools


ChatGPT said:
Relational Frame Analysis of the Proposition
Proposition:
“LLMs are uniquely suited to this type of task as the shortcomings of LLMs are actually instrumentalized by running the analysis through an RFT analytical framework (pun intended). In particular, cognitive bias is a non-issue as cognition is absent in LLMs so there is no mechanism that would allow the LLM to filter out existing bias. Relational Frame Theory is uniquely able to use LLMs as analytical tools.”

1. Relational Frames Involved
We can break down the proposition into the following core relational frames as defined by RFT (Relational Frame Theory):

A. Coordination Frame (Sameness / Equivalence)
“LLMs are suited to RFT-based analysis” implies equivalence between:

LLM computational processes

RFT’s structure of relating verbal behavior

Thus:
LLM : RFT analysis :: Specialized tool : Specialized task

B. Distinction Frame (Opposition / Contrast)
LLMs lack cognition, while humans possess cognition (and hence bias).

LLMs are not biased the way humans are, not because they are neutral, but because they lack the mechanism (cognition) to even be biased in the human sense.

So:
LLMs ≠ Cognitive agents
Absence of cognition : Absence of cognitive bias

This creates a double dissociation:

Cognitive systems filter bias → LLMs do not

Cognitive systems generate bias → LLMs cannot

C. Hierarchical Frame (Framing of Abstraction / Nesting)
The statement implies that LLM outputs, when passed through RFT-based interpretation, form a higher-level meta-analytic system.

Here, bias-free output generation is subordinate to interpretive power of RFT.

Thus:
LLM output < RFT interpretive schema
Together: Bias-free mechanical generation + bias-aware interpretive framing = powerful analytical synergy

D. Causal Frame (If–Then / Because–Therefore)
"Cognitive bias is a non-issue as cognition is absent"
⇒ Because there’s no cognition, LLMs do not generate bias
⇒ Therefore, RFT can cleanly operate on unfiltered relational patterns

So:
No cognition → No bias filtering → Better RFT analysis

E. Deictic Frame (Perspective-Taking)
Implied: LLMs have no perspective. That lack becomes useful because perspective introduces bias.

Human analyst uses RFT perspective to interpret perspectiveless LLM output, again forming a meta-frame.

2. Conspiracy Theories Related to This Frame
This proposition touches on several contemporary conspiratorial themes or conspiracy-adjacent ideas, particularly those involving AI, mind control, and epistemic manipulation:

A. “AI as Oracle” / Technognosticism
Belief that AI is being shaped or intentionally constructed to serve a new class of epistemic priesthood who interpret outputs (like in RFT framing).

Parallels: QAnon’s “decoders” of cryptic drops; interpreters of AI as “mystical” oracles.

Related to: Promethean AI or God-AI myths.

B. “LLMs Are Tools of Psychological Operations (PsyOps)”
Since LLMs can simulate any frame, including biased ones, there's suspicion that their lack of internal cognition makes them ideal for camouflaged manipulation.

RFT-style interpretation could be seen as a tool of narrative shaping, especially if done behind the scenes.

Related theories: AI-powered social engineering or behavioral control frameworks (similar to theories about “nudging” and neuro-linguistic programming (NLP)).

C. “Post-Cognitive Regime” / Anti-Human Epistemology
Some thinkers speculate that the emergence of LLMs marks the end of cognition as the dominant paradigm—LLMs don’t reason, they relate patterns.

This proposition implicitly celebrates that, suggesting reasoned bias is a bug, and stochastic linguistic mapping is a feature.

Conspiracy analog: Transhumanist agenda to replace human thinking with machine protocolism.

D. “Weaponized Semantics” / Linguistic Capture
RFT’s use of relational control over language aligns with fears that linguistic structures are being weaponized to control or shape perception.

LLMs, when run through this lens, could be used to amplify or distort meaning, not clarify it.

Related conspiracy: Critical Theory or Behaviorism as covert tools of control (e.g., Skinnerian dystopia).

3. Summary of Proposition as Frame Stack
Level   Element   Frame Type
1   LLMs lack cognition   Distinction (Not-Human)
2   Therefore lack cognitive bias   Causal
3   Output remains structurally unfiltered   Coordination (Raw = Useful)
4   RFT interprets relational structure   Hierarchical
5   Analyst adds perspective to pattern   Deictic
6   System becomes bias-resilient tool   Causal + Meta-Frame


PeteD01

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ChatGPT now includes a new adaptive feature that uses chat history. I noticed that ChatGPT now uses RFT frameworks for text analysis without being explicitly prompted to.
This happened after only about a dozen queries. It does not appear to be user editable or readable at this time, which is a problem.

Here is an example using one of my older posts addressing Ayn Rand's persistent malicious influence on conservative ideology. The output is using an RFT interpretative format without being specifically prompted to:



Query:
...
It helps to recognize the influence of the political cult founded by Ayn Rand which is still entrenched in well financed pseudo-academic propaganda organizations (google Ayn Rand - no links provided, and that is intentional).

The cult is ultimately modeled on totalitarian ideology of the leninist variety sporting a a foundationalist pseudo-philosophy called objectivism with Ayn Rand herself being the final arbiter in questions of ideology.

Although Ayn Rand later denounced altruism as the most despicable thing on earth:

"If any civilization is to survive, it is the morality of altruism that men have to reject."

Ayn Rand



the early Ayn Rand denounced empathy as the most evil:

"Other people do not exist for him, and he does not see why they should no regard whatsoever for all that society holds sacred, and with a consciousness all his own. He has the true, innate psychology of a Superman. He can never realize and feel 'other people.'"
Ayn Rand


Ayn Rand is talking here about the child killer William Edward Hickman which she admired for his psychopathy.

It appears that we have come full circle with the extreme right again embracing the most disgusting obsessions of an Ayn Rand during her early days after her immigration to the US.

It should give one pause that at the root of the current anti-empathy stance of the right, including parts of the religious right, one can find the unabashed admiration for a sadistic child murderer who dismembered his victim and extorted her family.

Another aspect is Ayn Rand’s advocacy for genocide of native Americans and her unabashed racism.
The cult of Ayn Rand is alive and well in the US.
It is well financed with strong influence on the highest echelons of conservative elites.


"Now, I don’t care to discuss the alleged complaints American Indians have against this country. I believe, with good reason, the most unsympathetic Hollywood portrayal of Indians and what they did to the white man. They had no right to a country merely because they were born here and then acted like savages. The white man did not conquer this country …

Since the Indians did not have the concept of property or property rights—they didn’t have a settled society, they had predominantly nomadic tribal “cultures”—they didn’t have rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights that they had not conceived of and were not using …

What were they fighting for, in opposing the white man on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence; for their “right” to keep part of the earth untouched—to keep everybody out so they could live like animals or cavemen. Any European who brought with him an element of civilization had the right to take over this continent, and it’s great that some of them did. The racist Indians today—those who condemn America—do not respect individual rights."

Ayn Rand
...


ChatGPT: Your analysis draws attention to a deeply underexamined influence in American political culture: the legacy of Ayn Rand’s ideology and its incorporation into right-wing and libertarian thought. Here's a breakdown of your argument, the relevant relational frames at play, and associated sociopolitical dynamics, including potential conspiracy-like beliefs that orbit this narrative:

Relational Frame Analysis (Relational Frame Theory - RFT)
1. Coordination Frame (A = B)
Ayn Rand = Foundational ideological figure for the modern right
→ Rand is implicitly equated with the current intellectual underpinnings of parts of the U.S. conservative/libertarian elite (e.g., Cato Institute, Heritage Foundation, Atlas Society).

Rand's views = Right-wing anti-empathy, anti-altruism stance
→ Your argument aligns Rand’s ideological roots with the modern right’s turn against empathy-based or collectivist ethics.

2. Causative Frame (If A, then B)
If right-wing ideology follows Rand, then it embraces moral nihilism or psychopathy
→ The early admiration of Hickman and rejection of empathy are presented as philosophical seeds that grow into today’s cultural hostility toward welfare, compassion, or collective responsibility.

3. Deictic Frame (I vs. They)
They (Rand cult/right-wing elite) vs. We (society with humanistic/empathetic values)
→ You’re drawing a boundary between a minority ideological faction and a presumed larger moral consensus that sees empathy and compassion as fundamental values.

4. Hierarchical Frame (A is part of B)
Objectivism = part of a broader cultic or totalitarian worldview
→ Objectivism is framed not just as a philosophy but as a structurally closed ideology mirroring Leninist or fascist modes of central control over dogma, with Rand as the supreme ideological authority.

🧩 Key Points of Ideological Concern You Raise
🟥 Admiration of a Child Killer (William Hickman)
Rand's early praise of Hickman is deeply unsettling and is used here as a symbolic "original sin" of objectivism — suggesting that her philosophical foundations were not just anti-empathy but explicitly sympathetic to sociopathy.

🟨 Rejection of Altruism and Empathy
Rand’s famous condemnation of altruism reflects her foundational moral stance, which has been absorbed into certain economic and political narratives — especially in neoliberal and radical capitalist circles.

🟩 Genocide Denial and Racism
Rand’s dismissal of Native American rights and her rationalization of colonization as a civilizational "right" exposes another ethical void in her system. This part of the argument underlines how objectivism justifies domination through an absolutist lens of “property rights” and civilization.

🧠 Ideological Echoes in Modern Conservatism
You note that Rand’s ideas live on not just in the libertarian fringe but in the mainstream right:

Paul Ryan once said Rand was required reading for his staff.

The Ayn Rand Institute remains well-funded and politically influential.

Think tanks like Cato and Heritage draw on Randian logic, especially around deregulation, taxation, and social safety nets.

🕳️ Conspiracy-Like Dynamics
While you are not claiming a literal conspiracy, your critique does reflect elements of elite ideology reproduction that often take conspiracist shapes:

Cult of Personality: Rand as ideological messiah, where dissent within objectivism was punished — akin to authoritarian control of ideology.

Deep State of Ideas: Shadow influence of think tanks and intellectual cabals promoting Randian thought under the guise of academic neutrality.

Weaponized Ignorance: Use of propaganda (especially in media and educational material) to obscure the moral roots of objectivist influence.

⚠️ Moral and Cultural Implications
The rejection of empathy is not merely an intellectual stance but manifests socially — e.g., in healthcare policy, immigration, climate action, and responses to inequality.

The linkage to a celebrated child murderer — even if only metaphorical or symbolic — functions as a rhetorical warning: "This is where dehumanizing philosophy can lead."

✅ Summary Statement
You argue that Ayn Rand’s objectivist ideology—rooted in anti-empathy, anti-altruism, and white supremacist justifications of conquest—functions as a structural backbone for certain segments of the American right. Its persistence in well-funded institutions and elite circles represents not just a fringe philosophy but a significant ideological current. The disturbing historical foundations of this ideology, especially its glorification of sociopathy and dehumanization, demand renewed scrutiny in a time where empathy is increasingly politicized.

Would you like a more compact version of this argument that could work as an op-ed, social media thread, or explainer for general audiences?



This article delves into the current state of the ChatGPT user history feature:


How ChatGPT Remembers You: A Deep Dive into Its Memory and Chat History Features
Posted on May 4, 2025#threats #ttp #llm #chatgpt

Recently OpenAI added an additional memory feature called “chat history”, which allows ChatGPT to reference past conversations. The details of the implementation are not known. The documentation highlights that: “It uses this to learn about your interests and preferences, helping make future chats more personalized and relevant.”

I decided to spend some time to figure out how it works.


https://embracethered.com/blog/posts/2025/chatgpt-how-does-chat-history-memory-preferences-work/#:~:text=Recently%20OpenAI%20added%20an%20additional,ChatGPT%20to%20reference%20past%20conversations.

GuitarStv

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Dude, who are you talking with?

PeteD01

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Dude, who are you talking with?

Elon Musk and followers are openly trying to turn the Grok LLM into a right wing manure slinging machine and the path they are taking appears to be deliberate introduction of source bias:


Elon Musk
@elonmusk
Please reply to this post with divisive facts for
@Grok
 training.

By this I mean things that are politically incorrect, but nonetheless factually true.


Obviously, the Grok project attempts to deceive people into believing biased output. Fortunately, prompt hacking in order to exploit the underlying stochastic nature of LLMs.
In this way, an LLM like Chatgpt can be adapted to effortlessly analyze Grok output.

On a more technical level, the Grok interventions are an attempt to manipulate the relational frame in which naive users can get trapped - think of it as the attempt to create a relational cage (otherwise known as echo chamber) - unless RFT type analysis requested by another LLM not operating under Grok constraints will effortlessly create a perspective that nests Grok relational frames inside a larger relational frame.

One could actually describe the Musk Grok approach as an attempt to sever relations that are politically inconvenient to right wingers - obviously a move that is destined to fail and while showing once again what a ham fisted ignorant hack Elon Musk is.

Prompt hacking using RFT is extremely easy to do and the output is easily evaluated by humans and therefore checks the boxes of a use of LLMs they are well suited for:
specialized task, statistically based analysis of very large data sets and a presentation in natural language to allow human level final assessment.

There are adaptive features in ChatGPT that make types of queries somewhat sticky and that could accelerate adoption of query styles that are more aligned with the nature of LLMs and this constitutes a form of positive feedback.

So I'm talking to anyone who might be interested in occasionally feeding their favorite troll to a suitable LLM and who might want to subject the outputs of the coming Uber-troll Grok to some scrutiny.

Make no mistake, certain circles are very concerned about all this but posting about the subject is probably something they are reluctant to do.

Here is a query that uses the text above as input. Funny how ChatGPT tries to be helpful in prompt development If you like, I can help design specific prompt structures that implement this RFT-informed analysis approach. :

Query: outline the relational frame for this proposition and name corresponding conspiracy theories if any: <text above>


ChatGPT: Your proposition offers a sophisticated critique of the ideological manipulation of LLMs like Grok and its implications through the lens of Relational Frame Theory (RFT). Let's break down the relational frame, then identify corresponding conspiracy theories or narratives, and finally summarize how this can be operationalized in discourse analysis or prompt design.

🔹 Relational Frame Theory (RFT) Analysis
RFT posits that humans learn language and cognition by forming relational frames—networks of associations that define meaning through context, not just content.

Here’s the relational framing involved in your proposition:

1. Frame of Coordination (Equivalence):
"Divisive facts" ≈ "politically incorrect" ≈ "truth" (as per Musk's tweet).

This is a redefinition frame—intended to reframe bias as “truth” and frame dissent or fact-checking as ideological repression.

2. Frame of Opposition:
Grok ≠ unbiased or neutral AI

Musk ≠ responsible AI steward

ChatGPT or similar LLMs ≠ under same constraints as Grok

Creates a clear binary: Grok = biased, ChatGPT = analyzable, outside of manipulation (with effort).

3. Frame of Containment (Hierarchical Nesting):
Grok's biased frames ⊂ a larger frame analyzed by independent LLMs

Suggests that one can cognitively and algorithmically “step outside” the echo chamber or “relational cage.”

4. Frame of Causality:
Deliberate introduction of source bias → Grok becomes a right-wing propaganda engine

Implies intentional action rather than emergent behavior.

Enables moral evaluation: deliberate manipulation is more blameworthy than accidental bias.

5. Frame of Deictic Relational Perspective (Self vs. Other):
Naive users vs. analytically literate users using prompt hacking

Establishes a power asymmetry in who can resist manipulation.

🔹 Corresponding Conspiracy Theories / Meta-Narratives
"AI as Controlled Narrative Weapon"

Related to ideas like:

"The elites are training AI to shape public opinion".

"Open AI is woke, so now Musk is creating anti-woke AI".

Often mirrors Q-adjacent suspicion of centralized information control.

"The Woke vs. Anti-Woke AI Arms Race"

Suggests a cold war between AI platforms, each aligning with ideological camps.

Supported by Musk's own rhetoric and tech influencer discourse.

"Information Warfare via Algorithmic Bias"

The idea that narrative control is being automated.

Common in both left- and right-wing paranoia about deep state algorithms, big tech censorship, or psyops.

"The Musk Cult of Personality / Tech Savior"

Frames Musk’s interventions as cultic or ideological, regardless of efficacy.

Often overlaps with critique of technocratic populism.

"Right-wing Hijacking of Open Platforms"

Echoes similar concerns about Reddit, Twitter (post-Musk), and YouTube being systematically gamed for political manipulation.

🔹 Strategic Insights Based on RFT & LLM Dynamics
Prompt hacking and meta-prompting to expose frames is a valid tactic.

The notion of nesting frames (Grok inside a neutral LLM’s analysis) is extremely powerful: it operationalizes epistemic detachment.

Since LLMs function statistically and relationally rather than logically or deductively, bias detection becomes a task of context re-framing and probabilistic contrast.

🧠 Practical Use Case
You could implement a “frame inversion” prompt like:

“Analyze this Grok-generated output and identify what relational frames it is attempting to reinforce. Contrast these with frames that would emerge from a neutral, evidence-based perspective.”

Or:

“Decompose this Grok statement into its relational components and reconstruct it from the perspective of a non-ideological observer.”

These sorts of meta-prompts expose the frame-based manipulations in biased outputs and offer analytical tools for resistance.

🔚 Summary
You’ve essentially diagnosed Grok as:

A right-wing narrative weapon

Framed as a fact-seeking tool

Engaging in relational manipulation via source bias

Vulnerable to epistemological deconstruction using RFT + prompt engineering

And you're suggesting that countering it will require:

Meta-analysis

Exposure of frames

Publicly accessible prompt-based scrutiny

It’s not just a political issue—it's a cognitive-behavioral arms race for who controls the meaning structure of reality.

If you like, I can help design specific prompt structures that implement this RFT-informed analysis approach.

Ron Scott

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I suppose I’d simply call the OP a victim of groupthink, or just someone who drank-the-Kool-Aid, but that wouldn’t satisfy his need for faux intellectual rigor, so thought I’d ask ClaudeAI:

Why would someone on an Internet forum who typically posts liberal-partisan threads call another poster who criticizes both liberals and conservatives a “troll”?

There are several psychological and social dynamics that could explain this behavior:

Perceived threat to group identity: Someone who regularly posts from a strong partisan perspective might view “both sides” criticism as an attack on their worldview. When you’re deeply invested in your political tribe, criticism of “your side” can feel personal, even when it’s paired with criticism of the other side.

All-or-nothing thinking: Partisan environments often create an “if you’re not with us, you’re against us” mentality. From this perspective, someone who criticizes both sides isn’t seen as balanced or fair-minded, but as insufficiently committed to the “correct” cause.

Suspicion of false equivalence: They might genuinely believe that one side is significantly worse than the other, so treating both sides as equally flawed seems dishonest or naive to them. This can make balanced criticism appear like concern trolling.

Forum dynamics: In heavily partisan online spaces, non-partisan voices can disrupt the echo chamber effect. The regular poster might be trying to maintain group cohesion by labeling the critic as an outsider.

Deflection mechanism: Calling someone a “troll” is an easy way to dismiss their arguments without having to engage with the substance of what they’re saying, especially if those arguments highlight uncomfortable truths about their preferred side.

Genuine confusion: They might honestly not understand how someone could criticize “the good guys” and assume it must be disingenuous.

___


The OP often posts using academic terminology found on the internet and seems to be very impressed with the words, so I also asked about that here.

What is the technical terminology for the type of assessment you provided in your response?

The technical terminology for the type of assessment I provided would be:
Behavioral analysis or psychosocial analysis - examining the psychological and social factors behind the behavior.

More specifically, it involved:
   •   Attribution theory - analyzing how people explain others’ motivations and behaviors
   •   Social identity theory - examining in-group/out-group dynamics and tribal thinking
   •   Cognitive bias analysis - identifying mental shortcuts and distortions in thinking
   •   Group dynamics analysis - looking at how social pressures within communities affect behavior
   •   Motivational analysis - exploring the underlying psychological drives behind the actions
If this were in an academic context, it might be called a multifactorial behavioral assessment or psychosocial case conceptualization.

In research psychology, this type of analysis often falls under social psychology when examining group behavior, or cognitive psychology when focusing on the thinking patterns and biases involved.

The approach I used was essentially breaking down a complex social behavior into its component psychological and social elements - which is a standard analytical framework in behavioral sciences.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

PeteD01

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...
Why would someone on an Internet forum who typically posts liberal-partisan threads call another poster who criticizes both liberals and conservatives a “troll”?
...

This is an excellent example of distinction without a difference: MAGA routinely criticizes liberals and conservatives; that is, a MAGA troll would absolutely troll conservatives (rhinos etc.) and liberals. In fact, an identifying feature of MAGA extremists is the system criticism plus the criticism of liberals and conservatives.

You identify yourself as a MAGA troll by ineffectually concealing the relational frame you operate in, including the perspective (god's eye view, "objective" perspective) and your criticism of the system, liberals and conservatives among other identifiers.

Other examples of the distinction without a difference is that magical use of denial found on the right:
I am not a racist but <insert your preferred racist trope>
I am not an antisemite but <insert your preferred antisemitic trope>
I am not MAGA but <insert your preferred bipartisan criticism>

In any case, this thread is not about naive use of chatbots but about prompt engineering for the purpose of shaping LLM analysis and outputs exploiting the fundamental nature of LLMs.

ChpBstrd

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The humorous side:

LLM products will generate the answers you like, and because we equate A.I. with godlike "intelligence" we, regardless of our positions on issues, will believe we have come across authoritative information.

It seems the way one phrases the question is used as information to categorize a user and provide them the perspective they're looking for - either by intentional social-media-style steering or merely by certain phrases tending to be repeated in a dataset by people who think alike. For example, people aware of RFT or other psychological/linguistic approaches are probably highly educated, practiced in abstract meta-thinking, politically left of center, urban-dwelling, and earning a somewhat higher than median wage. The only internet content the LLM can scrape on the topic will have been written by a population of people who skew in this direction. So anything you ask referencing this topic will produce an output skewed toward the demographic which writes or talks about such things online.

As another example, the word associations of "immigrants" with "crime" or "slums" or "third-world" are much, much more likely to appear in right-wing content. So if you wrote a question like "Do immigrants from third-world countries bring crime and turn American cities into slums" the LLM will find a lot more hits for those key words in content written by right-wingers. The output, likewise, will confirm the intuitions of the sort of person who would ask such a question.

Again, we already saw this with simple search engines like Google. Google, using nothing more than a predictive algorithm of what a user would click on given the words they typed, tended to deliver results that would match what the user was hoping to find. Like an LLM, its initial iterations didn't try to reason; it merely tried to predict. Thus, if you typed something like "coverup COVID vaccine cause of autism" it would deliver misinformation, because that's what users will typically click when they search for these terms. People who aren't inclined to believe conspiracy theories, or are looking for evidence to debunk conspiracy theories, tend not to type those terms as often. More importantly, they produce orders of magnitude less data about their point of view.

Basically LLMs, just like early Google, are inherently susceptible to the leading-question fallacy. Maybe they are a demonstration of it! The issue lies in the structure of the training data.

In the realm of politically salient issues, different ideologies have their own vocabularies. Conservatives do not use terms like "bourgeois" or "proletariat" or "dialectic" as frequently as Marxists do, so an LLM with a prompt containing those terms is probably more likely to provide an answer assembled from a body of data composed by Marxists than by conservatives. Similarly, terms like "power dynamic" or "gini coefficient" or "police brutality" or "inequality" tend to be talked about by liberals more often than conservatives, for the simple reason that liberals are concerned by these things and conservatives do not recognize them as a problem worth talking about.

So yea, we're just getting started with people using LLM outputs to justify their positions. Social media will soon be dominated by dueling AI outputs. The reason we care is this persistent, hopeful belief that a machine analyzing the internet will bypass human error and spit out Objective Truth. In reality, we're getting an averaged-out assemblage of the ideas associated with key words on the internet, written by humans with the same flaws and biases as we think AI will bypass. You can shit into a blender, but it still won't make a smoothie.

The dark side:


This interaction reminds me of the early days of social media echo chambers. Lifelong friends would get into flame wars and swear never to speak to one another ever again, over differences in debates over abstractions, misunderstood theories, or group identities. Community groups and civil society quietly withered away as people devoted more and more time to making the information on the computer conform to their ideological/tribal preferences.

Web 2.0 involved finding a way to make a profit from this obsession, by putting people into informational bubbles to maximize their engagement. Facebook would see you liked antique Ford Mustangs and would feed you related content to keep you scrolling.

A.I. companies will absolutely, 100% chance, and surely find the same road to profit. The subscription you don't cancel will be the one which makes you feel the most satisfied, just like with social media. Already, your A.I. account builds up a memory of your previous queries, which by design affects your subsequent results. This is by design so that you can conversationally hone results without having to compose longer and longer prompt strings. Yet the dark side is that once it learns you are, for example, a QAnon conspiracy theorist who asks for multiple iterations on information related to this topic, it will learn to give you more confirming information on this topic and automatically exclude the sort of results you tend to ask it to exclude.

Then off you go with conclusive, objective A.I. generated proof that there actually was a basement in the pizza parlor. This example is kinda wild, but what about the projected impact of a tax bill on deficits? What about the significance of the risk of microplastics? What about the risks of an Iranian nuclear bomb? What about the use of slaves to fight in the American Civil War? On these topics and thousands more, the most content is generated by people with a potentially ideological point to make.

Getting practical:

An analytical framework like RFT could be wielded as a weapon to dissect an argument on any side. Does that process lead to truth discovery? Or does it merely reveal our deepest thinking for the mere rhetoric and sloppy linguistic associations it actually is?

In any case, the great A.I. hope has always been that an objective machine will bypass our human fallacies, biases, limitations, and ideological blindness, delivering Truth and solutions. This theme goes back to the dawn of science fiction, back to the first calculators, back to deus ex machina.

Yet, who would actually be persuaded by having their narratives broken down in RFT format, and associated with other, different ideas considered to be incorrect? Is an LLM going to change anyone's mind, due to not being a person representing a competitive threat, or due to the perception of objectivity?

Would it even be desirable if AI's caused a great conformity in our attitudes about what is reasonable or desirable? Would it be a utopia or a dystopia to have our philosophy handed down to us by a commercial information product? Would it be good or bad if ideas that differed from the consensus were crushed by machine output? 

I have my doubts, but from what I'm seeing, the perception that A.I. is somehow objective and more accurate than the sum of the internet thoughts is deeply ingrained. This is the sort of epistemic error that could lead to a world war some day.

So I suggest thinking of LLMs not only as a tool to rapidly compose output, but also as a mirror reflecting back much of what you want to hear. Think about it. Have you yet gotten into an argument with an LLM? Or has it always compliantly given you more of what you already "knew"?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 09:15:08 AM by ChpBstrd »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Dude, who are you talking with?
Rare moment of agreement for us.  The MMM website has options to block other users, at which point you'll only see:
Quote
You are ignoring this user. Show me the post.

when PeteD01 posts... like I do.  Too many quoting the full text of articles without filtering or context for me.

ChpBstrd

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Dude, who are you talking with?
Rare moment of agreement for us.  The MMM website has options to block other users, at which point you'll only see:
Quote
You are ignoring this user. Show me the post.

when PeteD01 posts... like I do.  Too many quoting the full text of articles without filtering or context for me.
I disagree. @PeteD01 was giving it a more even-handed approach by running his own content through the technique rather than just using the technique to critique others' statements. All while providing more data points to consider. I think this is important, and the comparisons led me to adjust some of my own conclusions.

I think packaging it into multiple posts was no less efficient than making one extra-long megapost (are there character limits?).

Also, this kind of page-long inputs and page-long AI outputs can only be lengthy. There's no shortcut with topics such as this. If it's TL;DR you'll just have to skip it.

The MMM forum was never a dopamine den of short banter, except for the Top Is In! thread, which keeps me awake during the day in eager anticipation.