Living in a racist police state

[CDP45]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-15/smith-when-militarised-police-meet-institutional-racism/5674040

Opinion pieces on this are appearing in the Australian news:

For little or no cost, police obtained machine guns, grenade launchers, military aircraft and mine-resistant armoured vehicles.

Procured for use against drug lords, terrorists and hostage-takers, most police departments have little purpose for these items. In June, the New York Times reported that heavily-armed SWAT teams have conducted nightclub raids in Louisiana to enforce liquor laws, and stormed barbershops in Florida to bring charges of "barbering without a licence."

if police are equipped to fight an insurgency, at least some of them are going to see insurgents everywhere.

It's all a bit pathetic really. Dare I say this whole episode has shades of Israel/Palestine on a micro scale.

Someone (from both sides) needs to have the courage to build a bridge.

This nonsense has been going on in the US for some time, often in bizarre ways.  For example: http://patriotaction.net/forum/topics/tarp-police-step-away-from-the

As early as last summer, SIGTARP agents were participating in raids alongside other law enforcement agencies. They worked with FBI agents in a raid on Colonial Bank in Orlando, Florida in an investigation into possible TARP-related fraud. Witnesses saw armed law enforcement officers in the familiar oversized blue “raid jackets” with yellow lettering on the back. But the jackets didn’t say “FBI.”

Instead, they were stenciled with the words: “Federal Agent SIGTARP.”

These people were basically accountants and bank examiners, at least they were before some nutjob in Congress decided they should be enforcement personnel.

I can't believe Obamas bank warriors are allowed to do this... Why did Obama militarize the police? So now the libs are finally anti-war with just 2 years left of lame duck. Anytime libs you head out in the streets and protest....but no, just crickets because "your guy" is in The house. Pathetic.

[Roland of Gilead]

One thing my wife asked me that I can't come up with a good answer.   Why is the mayor of Ferguson white (and most of the city council white) when the population is 70% black?

[iris lily]

One thing my wife asked me that I can't come up with a good answer.   Why is the mayor of Ferguson white (and most of the city council white) when the population is 70% black?

I'm not sure you and your wife are aware of this, but racial quotas aren't in place at the ballot box. Do you think they should be?

[justajane]

One thing my wife asked me that I can't come up with a good answer.   Why is the mayor of Ferguson white (and most of the city council white) when the population is 70% black?

Historically Ferguson has not been a predominantly black neighborhood. It was heavily white up until the 1990s. The demographics only changed in the past two decades. My educated guess is that the makeup of political leadership in a community takes longer than the demographics to change. The current mayor looks young in his picture, although he could be a part of a long line of mayors from one family. That happens sometimes. Plus mayors are usually drawn from the business community, and I'm not sure how many black-owned businessmen or women there are in Ferguson that have enough clout to get voted mayor. 

[Roland of Gilead]

One thing my wife asked me that I can't come up with a good answer.   Why is the mayor of Ferguson white (and most of the city council white) when the population is 70% black?

I'm not sure you and your wife are aware of this, but racial quotas aren't in place at the ballot box. Do you think they should be?

I just wonder why the community needs outside help to control racism when they are perfectly capable of using their 70% voting power to elect an entirely black city council, black mayor and get a black police chief appointed.

All it takes is for people to actually give a shit.

[Blindsquirrel]

   The violence by the police in Mo are sadly, nothing new at all. In fact, they common enough to turn your stomach. http://www.policemisconduct.net/

[iris lily]

One thing my wife asked me that I can't come up with a good answer.   Why is the mayor of Ferguson white (and most of the city council white) when the population is 70% black?

I'm not sure you and your wife are aware of this, but racial quotas aren't in place at the ballot box. Do you think they should be?

I just wonder why the community needs outside help to control racism when they are perfectly capable of using their 70% voting power to elect an entirely black city council, black mayor and get a black police chief appointed.

All it takes is for people to actually give a shit.

Well after all of this, I expect that anyone who can afford to flee and is so inclined WILL flee, removing much of the stable population of Ferguson. Likely the "stable" population who have been there for decades and who give a shit are largely white. It's happening in the 'burbs all around them, and now one more down.

But all of that said, I think that the leadership of Ferguson has been dismal throughout this event. Sure, they are a small city and haven't run into this kind of thing before and they are winging it, but a better racially balanced police force would have saved them some face. Handing the investigation over to St. Louis County Police was a reasonable move in the early days of this strife.

But some of their decisions otherwise, umm, no. Our police chief in St. Louis spoke out against tactics there and that's pretty damned  unusual, these guys stick together. And then the frosting on the cake was yesterday where they released information without giving the State guys a heads up--that is amateur land.

So sure, let the communit put forth better leaders and vote the bastards out. I am always up for that!  :)

[DoubleDown]

Regarding the use of force in this case:

1. No one except the police officer involved knows exactly what happened or whether the use of lethal force was justified, or whether he continued to use lethal force unnecessarily once Michael Brown was no longer posing an immediate threat to anyone. Some immediate bystanders who directly witnessed may have an indication, but eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Did the officer shoot Michael Brown (or continue shooting) unnecessarily? Maybe. Did he shoot him because he was at risk of being overpowered by him? Maybe. None of us know.

2. Whether the officer was justified in shooting will come down to whether he reasonably feared for his life or suffering serious bodily harm from his alleged attacker(s), Michael Brown and his friend/accomplice. Being "unarmed," as Brown has been described, most decidedly does not make him "un-dangerous." Use of force decisions are a spectrum that rely on many factors besides having a gun. At 6'4 and 300 lbs, Michael Brown is an intimidating and potentially dangerous force for a much smaller person, even without a weapon. If the strong-arm robbery allegations from minutes before are substantiated, then he also demonstrates the ability and intent to use his size to intimidate and attack others. Attempting to seize an officer's gun, if true, has been repeatedly held as justification for using deadly force. The discussion is just not as simple or black-and-white (pardon the unintended pun) as "armed police officer shoots unarmed citizen."

[randymarsh]

Regarding the use of force in this case:

1. No one except the police officer involved knows exactly what happened or whether the use of lethal force was justified, or whether he continued to use lethal force unnecessarily once Michael Brown was no longer posing an immediate threat to anyone. Some immediate bystanders who directly witnessed may have an indication, but eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Did the officer shoot Michael Brown (or continue shooting) unnecessarily? Maybe. Did he shoot him because he was at risk of being overpowered by him? Maybe. None of us know.

Isn't the police officer himself an eyewitness? If the officer's account is given some amount of weight, then I think people who directly saw what happened should be given some consideration as well.

My main issue with this whole situation is less about the specific shooting of Brown and more with how everything after has been handled. Although I do question just how "scared" the officer was. Police these days seem to be afraid of their own shadow...and puppies...and children.

[Daleth]

I believe if I were a police officer I would fear for my life every day, I would be constantly on edge and consider anything but compliance with me as a threat to my safety.

It's a good thing you aren't a police officer then, because that kind of attitude is fundamentally incompatible with being an "officer of the peace." That attitude puts one strictly into the "jack-booted thug" category!

Every single police officer who expresses, has ever expressed, or hinted at expressing that sort of attitude either through action or inaction, should be immediately FIRED and barred from ever serving in any law enforcement role whatsoever, ever again!

And next time the cops do not react and one of them gets shot... who wins?

The public wins.

If the situation is that unclear, then it is better for the officer to refrain at the cost of his own life than to risk shooting an innocent citizen. This is for exactly the same reason people accused of crimes are presumed innocent until proven guilty -- everyone's freedom depends on it.

If you don't like it, don't be a police officer! Nobody's forcing them to put on the damn badge!

You are so right, Jack.

It's high time the feds stopped giving military-grade weaponry and equipment to municipal police forces, and instead spent a fraction of that money putting a camera on every cop in the country. People who know they will be held accountable for their actions behave better, and neither the cops nor the citizens they interact with can lie about what happened. They put cameras on the cops in Rialto, California, and here's the result:

"In the first year after the cameras were introduced here in February 2012, the number of complaints filed against officers fell by 88 percent compared with the previous 12 months. Use of force by officers fell by almost 60 percent over the same period."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us/in-california-a-champion-for-police-cameras.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[fixer-upper]

With the number of people getting ready to flee, it would suck to own rental properties there.

[randymarsh]

With the number of people getting ready to flee, it would suck to own rental properties there.

Mustachian problems.

[viper155]

The news out of Ferguson is unbelievable to me.

How can we stop these senseless, racist, testosterone-fueled killings of young black people?

How can we hold our police forces accountable for the fucked-up things they do?

You really should wait for the facts to come out. And, people should obey the law.

[viper155]

The news out of Ferguson is unbelievable to me.

How can we stop these senseless, racist, testosterone-fueled killings of young black people?

How can we hold our police forces accountable for the fucked-up things they do?

I wonder how many young, black people are killed by police as compared to other young black people? Your outrage is very misguided here.

[Bob W]

A few years ago I asked a police friend why it is red cars get more speeding tickets?  He said/ "Because they're going faster."

[greaper007]

Wow, what a depressing thread.   Tired bootstrap arguments on one side and anti-police sentiment on the other side.    Here's my thoughts.

It's awful that a person about to go to college was shot and killed, period.    Even if he was robbing a store earlier, this is a tragedy.  However, I highly doubt the reason people are in the street protesting is because of this one incident.    Much like how the assassination of Franz Ferdinand caused WWI, I have a feeling that there has been a shaky relationship between the largely minority population of this town and the largely Caucasian ruling class of the town.    Thus, this killing was a match dropped into a large vat of gasoline.      Couple this with the fact that the town and state have done very little to ensure that an official inquire is being carried out and you have incompetence fueling anger.

OTOH, nothing good happens on streets after midnight.   I have a feeling the people left protesting are more of the anarchist persuasion than hippie.    You have to maintain order in a community and a reasonable curfew is a reasonable measure.   It's also unfortunate that official channels are releasing picture and information about the police officer involved in this incident before he's had his day in "court."   Cops have a tough job, especially when they work in bad neighborhoods.   We should cut them some slack sometimes.

It's unfortunate that this is still going on in 2014.     I think we should probably all be more forthcoming with people that are from a different socioeconomic status than we are.    We'd probably find we have more in common than not, and have a little more empathy for the struggles of other people.

[iris lily]

....      Couple this with the fact that the town and state have done very little to ensure that an official inquire is being carried out and you have incompetence fueling anger....

I don't know where people are getting the idea that there is no investigation going on (prior to the Feds strong arming their way in.) Of course there is an investigation that started the moment Michale Brown was killed, as evidenced by the St. Louis County officials bickering with each other. You haven't heard that the prosecution attorney (white) has been dissed by the County Executive (black ) about prosecutor's ability to be impartial? Because the prosecutor was 12 years old when his own police officer father was killed while on duty by a black man.

Welcome to the theatre of Absurd Race Politics, it is 24/7 in St. Louis.

[greaper007]

....      Couple this with the fact that the town and state have done very little to ensure that an official inquire is being carried out and you have incompetence fueling anger....

I don't know where people are getting the idea that there is no investigation going on (prior to the Feds strong arming their way in.) Of course there is an investigation that started the moment Michale Brown was killed, as evidenced by the St. Louis County officials bickering with each other. You haven't heard that the prosecution attorney (white) has been dissed by the County Executive (black ) about prosecutor's ability to be impartial? Because the prosecutor was 12 years old when his own police officer father was killed while on duty by a black man.

Welcome to the theatre of Absurd Race Politics, it is 24/7 in St. Louis.

The point is that the public relations aspect has been handled very poorly.    There hasn't been clear and definitive language and actions on behalf of the officials involved in this case.    Perhaps a first class investigation is being carried, but no one really knows.    That's a failure of leadership.

I don't really understand the point of your "Race Politics" remark.    When people are this up in arms it's obvious that certain needs aren't being met.   This generally isn't caused by someone's geographical area of ancestry.

What's with all the veiled racism on this board lately?

[oldtoyota]

"Racist police state" is the sort of hyperbole that is meant to outrage people.  A lot more young people (of all colors) are killed BY EACH OTHER every year than by law enforcement.  And a lot of law enforcement officers are killed each year by young people.

Do you have stats to back this up?

Actually I probably don't even care if you do because it's completely irrelevant. Cops shoot unarmed black men while exceedingly armed white men can stroll into Chipotle with zero repercussions. This is not okay. This is straight up racist.

And Jennifer in Ottawa, if you would check out what's going on in Ferguson, you would see the police state images for yourself. Reporters being illegally arrested and prevented from reporting on the situation, peaceable protesters being shot with rubber bullets, citizens being tear gassed as they stand in their own yards. All egregious civil rights violations. Not to mention, you know, the fact that one more black kid is dead for no reason.

Since 9/11 our police forces have been armed and trained like soldiers and now they are acting like them. Whoever doesn't see this, isn't paying attention.

In at least some places where the cops wear video equipment, police brutality has decreased significantly. I agree with the police surveilling themselves as I think they need it. NYC was against doing this for their police officers, unfortunately.

I think this is likely to happen in smaller towns where sheriffs have more power. I don't think America is as "free" as people think it is…this post is probably going into a database on an NSA server farm somewhere. This country has civil forfeiture, which means your property can be taken away from you if *I* do something illegal on your property--even if you don't know I am doing something illegal on your property.

The US has secret and not-so-secret prisons…we offshore our most egregious acts whereas other countries don't.

And, yes, it's true black men--especially--are targeted by the police. Even sometimes by other black men.

[Bob W]

From a Mustachian standpoint when we are talking "economic status" rather than purely race, it is interesting to note that many entities report that families on welfare are given the equivalent of 35-45K per year in Government assistance in many cases.

Give a mustachian family 40K per year and they can have a very nice lifestyle.  In fact, 40K is the equivalent of having worked and saved $1,000,000.   

Talk about extreme early retirement!  Many of the people on these social programs have never worked.   They don't worry about saving money because there is a continuous stream of cash from us working folks via the government to support them.  (granted you pretty much have to be a woman with children to achieve the higher benefits level)

The SNAP program for instance gives over $600 in food benefits to a family of four.  By comparison in  2013 our food budget for a family of 3 was around $350 per month.   That is in line with MMMs $3 per person per day guideline.  Food benefits can be used for anything, including soda, prime rib, shrimp and eating out at many restaurants.   I have seen this occur.  I have seen SNAP benefits used to purchase shrimp to be used as fishing bait.

An interesting note on the food stamp calculator I used to research this is that there is an assumed allowance of $590 for utilities.  This includes heat, water, sewer, trash, phone.  (most welfare recipients have free cell phones)  By comparison our monthly utilities will soon run (as soon as we are fully converted to republic wireless)  $265.

For our family to save the $1,000,000 needed to generate 40K we will need to work hard and save like crazy for a very long time.  We would need to live on a very tight budget and forgo foods like prime rib and shrimp. 

This isn't a political comment it is just an observation of the two very different worlds that people in this country live in.   

One would guess that in communities where people are working hard, saving money and taking care of their property that there would be very little luting and burning of businesses.   It is because of vested interest.   I would dare say if this was going on in my community every business owner would be sitting in front of their business with guns ready to fire.  They would also have many friends, neighbors and new friends sitting with them. 

The so called "war on poverty" has failed IMHO.   Time to rethink the paradigm? 

Regarding rental properties in Ferguson ----  As Ferguson has just moved to second place on the "worst places to retire in America" (Detroit being number 1), the next 6 months might be good time to snap up some bargains?

[justajane]

Sigh. There are so many stereotypes in Bob Werner's post that I don't even know where to begin. Prime rib and steak, never worked a day in their life....congratulations, you win the prize for stuffing the most cliches about the poor into one post! Not to mention the implication that all the protestors are poor. We live in St. Louis and make around $95,000, and if I didn't have an infant and two other kids to get to and from school, I would happily join the Ferguson protestors during the day. How does that fit into your paradigm?

Can you at least direct me to the stat that says that a family of four would receive over $600 in SNAP money? Perhaps it is regional, but I was under the impression the maximum usually rests around $400 or $450. I could be wrong on this.

[Jack]

From a Mustachian standpoint when we are talking "economic status" rather than purely race, it is interesting to note that many entities report that families on welfare are given the equivalent of 35-45K per year in Government assistance in many cases.

Oh yeah? If "many entities report that" then maybe you'd care to cite one (and partisan ones don't count, by the way).

Many of the people on these social programs have never worked.

Again, citation (desperately) needed.

This isn't a political comment...

Bullshit. You've done exactly nothing except regurgitate conservative talk-radio sound bites. (Not even conservative politician talking points; talk-radio sound bites -- where they don't even have any semblance of accountability.)

Oh, by the way: "many" is meaningless in these kinds of arguments because it's an opinion. For all we know, you think even one family getting $35k/year is "many." Your attempt to misrepresent your opinions as facts or statistics is disingenuous, unscrupulous and insulting to our intelligence.

[oldtoyota]

I believe if I were a police officer I would fear for my life every day, I would be constantly on edge and consider anything but compliance with me as a threat to my safety.

It's a good thing you aren't a police officer then, because that kind of attitude is fundamentally incompatible with being an "officer of the peace." That attitude puts one strictly into the "jack-booted thug" category!

Every single police officer who expresses, has ever expressed, or hinted at expressing that sort of attitude either through action or inaction, should be immediately FIRED and barred from ever serving in any law enforcement role whatsoever, ever again!

And next time the cops do not react and one of them gets shot... who wins?

The public wins.

If the situation is that unclear, then it is better for the officer to refrain at the cost of his own life than to risk shooting an innocent citizen. This is for exactly the same reason people accused of crimes are presumed innocent until proven guilty -- everyone's freedom depends on it.

If you don't like it, don't be a police officer! Nobody's forcing them to put on the damn badge!

You are so right, Jack.

It's high time the feds stopped giving military-grade weaponry and equipment to municipal police forces, and instead spent a fraction of that money putting a camera on every cop in the country. People who know they will be held accountable for their actions behave better, and neither the cops nor the citizens they interact with can lie about what happened. They put cameras on the cops in Rialto, California, and here's the result:

"In the first year after the cameras were introduced here in February 2012, the number of complaints filed against officers fell by 88 percent compared with the previous 12 months. Use of force by officers fell by almost 60 percent over the same period."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us/in-california-a-champion-for-police-cameras.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Thank you. I said the same thing above, yet you provide links, etc. This is what needs to happen.

[oldtoyota]

Sigh. There are so many stereotypes in Bob Werner's post that I don't even know where to begin.

Yes. Next, we'll be hearing about how "welfare queens" drive Cadillacs and vacation in St. Maarten….Ah, the Reagan years will never die.

[oldtoyota]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-15/smith-when-militarised-police-meet-institutional-racism/5674040

Opinion pieces on this are appearing in the Australian news:

For little or no cost, police obtained machine guns, grenade launchers, military aircraft and mine-resistant armoured vehicles.

Procured for use against drug lords, terrorists and hostage-takers, most police departments have little purpose for these items. In June, the New York Times reported that heavily-armed SWAT teams have conducted nightclub raids in Louisiana to enforce liquor laws, and stormed barbershops in Florida to bring charges of "barbering without a licence."

if police are equipped to fight an insurgency, at least some of them are going to see insurgents everywhere.

It's all a bit pathetic really. Dare I say this whole episode has shades of Israel/Palestine on a micro scale.

Someone (from both sides) needs to have the courage to build a bridge.

This nonsense has been going on in the US for some time, often in bizarre ways.  For example: http://patriotaction.net/forum/topics/tarp-police-step-away-from-the

As early as last summer, SIGTARP agents were participating in raids alongside other law enforcement agencies. They worked with FBI agents in a raid on Colonial Bank in Orlando, Florida in an investigation into possible TARP-related fraud. Witnesses saw armed law enforcement officers in the familiar oversized blue “raid jackets” with yellow lettering on the back. But the jackets didn’t say “FBI.”

Instead, they were stenciled with the words: “Federal Agent SIGTARP.”

These people were basically accountants and bank examiners, at least they were before some nutjob in Congress decided they should be enforcement personnel.

I can't believe Obamas bank warriors are allowed to do this... Why did Obama militarize the police? So now the libs are finally anti-war with just 2 years left of lame duck. Anytime libs you head out in the streets and protest....but no, just crickets because "your guy" is in The house. Pathetic.

Whenever I hear someone say "the libs" and then use sweeping generalizations, I wonder if they have been watching FOX "News."

[Constance Noring]

Reading this thread gives me an eerie feeling - like this must have been like at some dinner party in 1964. Watts is exploding, and the well-meaning shake their heads. Fifty years really isn't that long ago after all.

[Eric]

I have seen SNAP benefits used to purchase shrimp to be used as fishing bait.

What is it with the seafood obsession?

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/elvsf4/what-not-to-buy

[GuitarStv]

It's high time the feds stopped giving military-grade weaponry and equipment to municipal police forces, and instead spent a fraction of that money putting a camera on every cop in the country. People who know they will be held accountable for their actions behave better, and neither the cops nor the citizens they interact with can lie about what happened. They put cameras on the cops in Rialto, California, and here's the result:

"In the first year after the cameras were introduced here in February 2012, the number of complaints filed against officers fell by 88 percent compared with the previous 12 months. Use of force by officers fell by almost 60 percent over the same period."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us/in-california-a-champion-for-police-cameras.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Thank you. I said the same thing above, yet you provide links, etc. This is what needs to happen.

I like the idea of cameras on all police officers.  It's good for everyone:

- Police brutality is recorded
- Lies about police can be dis-proven

Seems like a win-win.

[Blindsquirrel]

  Yep, I agree on cameras on every police, law enforcement officer. It would reduce testalying as some of my former police acquaintances described it,  same folks who would log personal property / cash of folks they arrested under a different name just to make it a huge pain/impossible to ever get back.  One need only peruse the horrifying stories at http://www.innocenceproject.org/   to get a wretched view of the criminal  "justice" system . What if it was you or your loved ones who were the victims of corrupt police and evidence hiding prosecutors?  We have very, very few civil liberties left in the USA as it stands. One need only look at the arrest of journalists in Mo to see what the police think of the constitution.  Given that the US has about 5% of the worlds population and 25 % of the worlds folks in prison I have very little hope for change. God help you if you run into a fellow like this as a judge.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal  read that one if you have kids.

[GuitarStv]

The autopsy report in the shooting death of Michale Brown appears to give credence to the officer's report of what happened.

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/08/18/expert-autopsy-reveals-eyewitness-accounts-that-brown-was-shot-in-back-are-false/

I'm sure the protests will all blow over now . . .

:P

[Cheddar Stacker]

You would think the autopsy report would have helped. Not so much. Now many people want the cop in jail immediately. I'm having a hard time understanding the justification for that.

And the protests continue, and when it gets dark the violence continues. Hard to watch.

EDIT:
This makes the building stealing bikes in your city seem like no big deal. Still an injustice, but it's all relative.

[Roland of Gilead]

Wait, so the eye witnesses have now been discredited and yet the riots continue?

Maybe this was more about getting free stuff from stores?

[Another Reader]

There's a lot of evidence that the officer was attacked and seriously injured.  Here's a quote from the CNN story.

The preliminary investigation showed that the officer tried to exit his vehicle, but Brown pushed him back into the car, "where he physically assaulted the police officer" and struggled over the officer's weapon, St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar said.

A shot was fired inside the police car, Belmar said. After the incident, the officer was taken to an area hospital, where he was treated for a "swollen face," according to Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson.


Elsewhere, it has been reported that the officer suffered a fracture of the bones surrounding one eye and was treated at the hospital.

Instead of rushing to judgement, isn't it best to wait for ALL the evidence?  If Brown was on drugs, the toxicology reports that take a week or two to process will show that.  The results of the investigation will show if the officer was injured in a fight.  The officer's story and the eyewitness accounts will be corroborated or contradicted by the forensic evidence, when it is assembled and examined.  Maybe that point would be a more reasonable time to form an opinion. 

I do have an opinion about mob violence.  The long term effects on a community are devastating.  It needs to be stopped right now, and bringing in the National Guard was probably the correct choice.

[Gin1984]

The autopsy report in the shooting death of Michale Brown appears to give credence to the officer's report of what happened.

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/08/18/expert-autopsy-reveals-eyewitness-accounts-that-brown-was-shot-in-back-are-false/

I'm sure the protests will all blow over now . . .

:P

Did you miss that the Feds are redoing the autopsy?

[Paul der Krake]

It's really hard not to draw a parallel to the 2005 riots in Paris, the 2011 riots in London, and the 2013 riots in Stockholm (I'm sure there are more, but that's the ones I'm most familiar with).

Each time you have an unsavory situation for a group of people, and an incident that lights up the powder keg. After a couple days, there is so much anger on both sides...

[iris lily]

Did you miss that the Feds are redoing the autopsy?

This is a mischaracterization, it's not 're-doing" exactly since the autopsy in the above link (cbs link) was not done in an official capacity. You are saying that the Feds are "re-doing" The Brown family's autopsy. It's more complicated than that since there are 3 (so far) autopsies in this case.

Firstly, the autopsy report in the above link (autopsy #1), the one summarized in the cbs story, was performed in a private capacity, not official, by a forensic expert-for-hire, Dr. Baden.  Dr. Baden was hired by Mike Brown's family. If you read the article carefully you'll see that the conclusion that the eye witness lied when he said Brown was shot in the back is NOT STATED by Dr. Baden.

That conclusion is made by a Dr. Kobinsky who is a talking head source, contacted by this news source. In fact, I believe that soon after those results were released, Mike Brown's family attorney stated that "their" autopsy did NOT show which way the bullets went into his body, from the front or from the back. But I can't find that reference right now.

So regardless of the outcome of the unofficial autopsy (and most sources seem to interpret it discounting Mike's sidekick witness) it's another piece of evidence by non-official sources.

Secondly, the only official official report of the autopsy of Mike Brown's body to date (Autopsy #2) has not been released. This is the autopsy performed by the Medical Examiner's Office of the St. Louis County.

Thirdly, yes, the Feds are conducting another autopsy, that would be #3. Let them.  I think it's a good idea.

No doubt there will be different conclusions drawn from all three autopsies. I will also say that the order of the autopsies are likely not as I presented here. I think the County performed theirs first, with the Brown family's second, and the Feds' third.

[Jack]

The autopsy report in the shooting death of Michale Brown appears to give credence to the officer's report of what happened.

...

I'm sure the protests will all blow over now . . .

At this point, it doesn't even matter whether the officer ultimately turns out to have been in the right. The actions of pretty much every single local or state government official since then have been a constant deluge of unconstitutional, totalitarian thuggery!

They've teargassed people trying to exercise their 1st Amendment rights, confiscated cellphones (destroying the evidence of police brutality contained within), pointed weapons at children, arrested people for being in their own yard after "curfew," instituted a no-fly-zone to prevent journalists in helicopters from exposing the full extent of their military assault, etc. They've even apparently kicked out Amnesty International and threatened to "bust [the] head" of an Al Jazeera reporter!

These are things that, until now, I've only heard of happening in places like North Korea or the fucking middle east!

Every officer who has participated in this appalling travesty is an enemy of democracy and justice. Merely losing their commissions is too good for them; they all belong in prison.

[madame librarian]

I don't think the autopsy report necessarily debunks the witnesses' stories. Brown's friend said he saw him get shot once in the back -- it's possible he didn't see or interpret that correctly (ie he could have heard a gunshot and thought Brown had been hit). All the witnesses seem to agree that Brown was attempting to run away, and that after the first couple of shots were fired, he turned around with his hands in the air, at which point the officer advanced on him and continued to shoot. That and the fact that the autopsy showed none of the shots were fired at close range seems to support the witnesses' stories.

Agree with Jack that the police handling of the situation in Ferguson has been appalling straight through.

The thing is, whether or not Brown struggled with the officer, the fact that YET ANOTHER unarmed black teenager has been shot to death and nobody is being held accountable is opening some really deep wounds. Police really need training in de-escalating unarmed situations without resorting to filling people with bullets.

[boy_bye]

The autopsy report in the shooting death of Michale Brown appears to give credence to the officer's report of what happened.

...

I'm sure the protests will all blow over now . . .

At this point, it doesn't even matter whether the officer ultimately turns out to have been in the right. The actions of pretty much every single local or state government official since then have been a constant deluge of unconstitutional, totalitarian thuggery!

They've teargassed people trying to exercise their 1st Amendment rights, confiscated cellphones (destroying the evidence of police brutality contained within), pointed weapons at children, arrested people for being in their own yard after "curfew," instituted a no-fly-zone to prevent journalists in helicopters from exposing the full extent of their military assault, etc. They've even apparently kicked out Amnesty International and threatened to "bust [the] head" of an Al Jazeera reporter!

These are things that, until now, I've only heard of happening in places like North Korea or the fucking middle east!

Every officer who has participated in this appalling travesty is an enemy of democracy and justice. Merely losing their commissions is too good for them; they all belong in prison.

amen.

i mean, really?
http://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/8/20/6050073/watch-a-cop-in-ferguson-aim-a-gun-at-people-and-threaten-to-kill-them/in/5757650

[ingrownstudentloans]

A major new source is now reporting that the police officer was treated for a broken eye socket and massive swelling of the face due to the beating that MB inflicted on him prior to the shooting.  Of course the source is "someone close to the investigation"...thoughts on how, if true, this will affect the rioting?  (please don't read anything into my position on the matter based on this question, just consider the latest reporting from the incident)

[fitzgeralday]

The news out of Ferguson is unbelievable to me.

How can we stop these senseless, racist, testosterone-fueled killings of young black people?

How can we hold our police forces accountable for the fucked-up things they do?

I too have been following this story very closely from the very beginning, and to see the response to this tragedy has been disheartening to say the least.  There are numerous ways that you can help in this situation, such as supporting ongoing efforts to pass legislation to minimize the likelihood of this trend continuing (e.g., mandating that police wear cameras) or starting your own grassroots effort to address an identified need that is either predictive of or resulting from similar incidences (e.g., the teachers in Ferguson who decided to offer free tutoring services to students who were in jeopardy of falling behind due to school closures in the area). 

Also, it is my observation that social media has done an exemplary job of sharing news and updates that would not otherwise be considered "media worthy" or that are in stark contrast to the message that media outlets want you to believe (e.g., rival gangs joining forces to protect local businesses from looters).

[Gin1984]

The autopsy report in the shooting death of Michale Brown appears to give credence to the officer's report of what happened.

...

I'm sure the protests will all blow over now . . .

At this point, it doesn't even matter whether the officer ultimately turns out to have been in the right. The actions of pretty much every single local or state government official since then have been a constant deluge of unconstitutional, totalitarian thuggery!

They've teargassed people trying to exercise their 1st Amendment rights, confiscated cellphones (destroying the evidence of police brutality contained within), pointed weapons at children, arrested people for being in their own yard after "curfew," instituted a no-fly-zone to prevent journalists in helicopters from exposing the full extent of their military assault, etc. They've even apparently kicked out Amnesty International and threatened to "bust [the] head" of an Al Jazeera reporter!

These are things that, until now, I've only heard of happening in places like North Korea or the fucking middle east!

Every officer who has participated in this appalling travesty is an enemy of democracy and justice. Merely losing their commissions is too good for them; they all belong in prison.

Both of which are illegal unless there is a state of emergency, which the police did not have the legal authority to determine.  The governor allowed this behavior, the president allowed this behavior.  And on that line, the officer did not call for backup, the witnesses were not interviewed correctly, logically if he did not call through dispatch, when did IA find out about this?  All things as an officer, he should have done.  In fact, by leaving the body laying there, he compromised evidence.

[fitzgeralday]

I don't think the autopsy report necessarily debunks the witnesses' stories. Brown's friend said he saw him get shot once in the back -- it's possible he didn't see or interpret that correctly (ie he could have heard a gunshot and thought Brown had been hit). All the witnesses seem to agree that Brown was attempting to run away, and that after the first couple of shots were fired, he turned around with his hands in the air, at which point the officer advanced on him and continued to shoot. That and the fact that the autopsy showed none of the shots were fired at close range seems to support the witnesses' stories.

Agree with Jack that the police handling of the situation in Ferguson has been appalling straight through.

The thing is, whether or not Brown struggled with the officer, the fact that YET ANOTHER unarmed black teenager has been shot to death and nobody is being held accountable is opening some really deep wounds. Police really need training in de-escalating unarmed situations without resorting to filling people with bullets.

The trajectory of the bullets actually suggest that Mike Brown (height = 6'4") was in the process of bending down into a submissive position when first shot, as the first bullet entered the top of his head and exited near his neck.  This first shot was believed to have been fatal, but was followed by an estimated 4-5 additional shots - none of which were at close range.  http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0

[Cheddar Stacker]

Really? If the first shot was the fatal shot, how did the other 4-5 shots hit the front of his arm?

[BlueMR2]

Really? If the first shot was the fatal shot, how did the other 4-5 shots hit the front of his arm?

There's a ton of misconceptions about firearms and bullets out there...

Bullet wounds are not instant killers.  A central nervous system hit can take someone down in a second or 2, but normally you're looking at tens of seconds to stop someone.  The one that kills you ultimately is not the last one to go through your body before you stopped fighting.

[madame librarian]

A major new source is now reporting that the police officer was treated for a broken eye socket and massive swelling of the face due to the beating that MB inflicted on him prior to the shooting.  Of course the source is "someone close to the investigation"...thoughts on how, if true, this will affect the rioting?  (please don't read anything into my position on the matter based on this question, just consider the latest reporting from the incident)

The thing is that black people in this country have really good reasons not to trust the police (and the establishment in general). They are arrested and incarcerated at astonishingly high rates for really minor crimes (eg possession of drugs). Their homes are raided by SWAT teams searching for drugs and they get shot by police for doing things like taking out their wallets. They are stopped and illegally searched just for walking around in cities. Black poverty is so rampant now because black people were actively prevented from building wealth during the time that whites in this country were doing so.

I think what we are seeing here is all of these things reaching a boiling point. Regardless of whatever Brown did or didn't do, one undisputable fact is that he was unarmed. That is why this case is fueling people's rage. He may have been acting like an idiot, we may never know. But he's another unarmed casualty of a majority that has been brutalizing this community for hundreds of years. That's why this is happening.

[Roland of Gilead]

Black poverty is so rampant now because black people were actively prevented from building wealth during the time that whites in this country were doing so.

If this is the true reason for black poverty, then how are there so many immigrants that come to the USA with nothing and manage to build significant wealth in one generation.

My wife's grandparents came to the USA from Soviet occupied Latvia right after WWII with $0.25 given to them by a soldier.   By the time they had been here 12 years they owned their home free and clear and had significant savings.

Maybe we could perhaps look at reasons other than whites for black poverty.

[YK-Phil]

A major new source is now reporting that the police officer was treated for a broken eye socket and massive swelling of the face due to the beating that MB inflicted on him prior to the shooting.  Of course the source is "someone close to the investigation"...thoughts on how, if true, this will affect the rioting?  (please don't read anything into my position on the matter based on this question, just consider the latest reporting from the incident)

Their homes are raided by SWAT teams searching for drugs and they get shot by police for doing things like taking out their wallets. They are stopped and illegally searched just for walking around in cities. Black poverty is so rampant now because black people were actively prevented from building wealth during the time that whites in this country were doing so.

"You know you can be shot 41 times for pulling out your wallet". From the the 2002 film Phone Booth.

As I said before, my own son who is not black but gets his physical features from his Native American mom, got arrested, and released without charges, many times. Like Michael Brown and many young men like him, my son is angry at authority because of the way he is profiled and treated, simply because of his racial appearance. I hate to think about the worst, but I live in fear.

[madame librarian]

Black poverty is so rampant now because black people were actively prevented from building wealth during the time that whites in this country were doing so.

If this is the true reason for black poverty, then how are there so many immigrants that come to the USA with nothing and manage to build significant wealth in one generation.

My wife's grandparents came to the USA from Soviet occupied Latvia right after WWII with $0.25 given to them by a soldier.   By the time they had been here 12 years they owned their home free and clear and had significant savings.

Maybe we could perhaps look at reasons other than whites for black poverty.

There is a big difference between starting from 0 and working your way up and starting in the negatives and having to overcome all possible obstacles to have anything at all (see ykphil's post below for examples). Other than that, idk, sounds like your mind is made up... but if you are curious you could look into residential segregation and the way blacks have been forced to pay more $$ than whites for worse property, all the while facing the prospect of being thrown out over added fees.

fwiw -- I am of white and "bootstrap immigrant" heritage and I felt the same way as you -- until I saw a good (black) friend get pepper sprayed and arrested for trying to break up a fight. The actual perps (who were white) got away free. That was when I started to really question this stuff.

[Roland of Gilead]

There is a big difference between starting from 0 and working your way up and starting in the negatives and having to overcome all possible obstacles to have anything at all

Well, I will agree that there is a big difference between getting shot coming out of the local library after you just finished spending 2 hours job hunting on the public internet and getting shot after coming out of a local shop you just robbed and manhandled the proprietor.  It is going to be hard to work your way up when you start at robbery.