Let's talk about aging and age discrimination

[lhamo]

Anybody thinking about using Botox or fillers should be forced to watch the video of Lori Vallow Daybell that aired on Nightline last Friday — really scary what happens to your face when you stop using that shit

[OzzieandHarriet]

Anybody thinking about using Botox or fillers should be forced to watch the video of Lori Vallow Daybell that aired on Nightline last Friday — really scary what happens to your face when you stop using that shit

Aside from the Botox she sounds like an awful person.

[Fru-Gal]

Ugh. I didn’t know who that was.

I thought you were referring to the lady from one of the housewife reality shows who did so many injections and now has an incurable facial parasite eating her face.

[charis]

Anybody thinking about using Botox or fillers should be forced to watch the video of Lori Vallow Daybell that aired on Nightline last Friday — really scary what happens to your face when you stop using that shit

I just google a recent image and I'm not sure what you are referring to.  She looks a bit old for her age I suppose but not unusually so for a woman in her 50s who has been in prison for a couple of years.

[G-dog]

Ugh. I didn’t know who that was.

I thought you were referring to the lady from one of the housewife reality shows who did so many injections and now has an incurable facial parasite eating her face.

Brandy Granville.  And there’s no parasite, according to any legit doctor she has seen (which includes some plastic surgeon that also has / had a reality show).

The cat lady just died a few weeks ago (Jocelyn Wittenstein?) - between too many surgeries, fillers etc., scar tissue - she paid A LOT of money to rob herself of her natural beauty, she was really gorgeous)

[RetiredAt63]

I figure I've earned every wrinkle and laugh and frown line.

My jaw line isn't too bad for my age.  Maybe we need wimples to come back into style, those bands under the jaw were quite flattering.   ;-)

The post-menopause "behold my field of fucks and lo it is barren" life is great.

[Metalcat]

IDK, I've gotten very low dose Botox for years and I've referred patients for medical Botox for years. Botox is a godsend for those of us with overactive muscles.

I keep my dose low enough though that I never have muscle paralysis, just a lower intensity of muscle activity. I also let it fully wear off for months between treatments so that I never forget what my face is supposed to look like with full expression.

Where people get in trouble is chasing perfect wrinkle elimination, which generally looks strange and looks worse and worse as the person ages anyway. It's a little known fact that Botox should be steadily tapered down and often totally eliminated around the age of 50.

What Botox is best used for cosmetically is if someone has one overactive area of muscle and it's causing that area to have expression wrinkles out of sync with the rest of the face. The light Botox allows the expression wrinkles to still steadily develop, just at a more even pace with the rest of the face.

Injections and procedures for the sake of esthetic harmony will always be more successful than injections and procedures that try to prevent the inevitability of ageing.

So someone who has really excessive eyelid dropping genetically will really benefit esthetically from blepharoplasty, but someone who has normal eyelid drooping that's totally harmonious with their overall aging can look absolutely whacky getting a blepharoplasty to try and look younger.

Anti aging cosmetic procedures *can* be done really beautifully, but only if they are totally harmonious, which means everything must be done together every handful of years.

A good example of this is Scarlett Johansson. She's probably on about her 3rd facelift at this point. Ironically, the secret to not looking like you've had a ton of cosmetic work is to get a FUCK TON of cosmetic work very frequently so that no single alteration is ever very extreme.

Because it's when people make too much of an adjustment at one time that things get dysharmonious and start looking fucking weird. Waiting too long for a facelift means lifting too much at once.

But a complete, harmonious, well executed series of surgeries means going through invasive surgeries every few years and spending millions on them.

Yeah, that's fucking insane to do.

So anyone who isn't a celebrity whose entire career depends on their conventional beauty and appearance of youth, it's best for anyone interested in cosmetic enhancement to limit the procedures to only those that promote harmony, not those that fight the losing battle of trying to fight aging.

[jrhampt]

^^^isn’t SJ pretty young for facelifts???  I didn’t know people even really did those anymore.

[Metalcat]

^^^isn’t SJ pretty young for facelifts???  I didn’t know people even really did those anymore.

Quite the opposite.

Facelifts are being done extremely early now, which is why so many actresses look so beautiful in their 40s and 50s and seem to magically age incredibly gracefully.

Facelift techniques have changed dramatically over the years. Long gone are the horrible yanked-back surface lifts of the past. They're still done by hacks because they're much easier, but the newer generation of facelifts go much deeper and lift the entire face, not just the skin, which looks incredibly natural and not tight at all.

Female celebrities are usually starting to get them in their 30s and will often have at least 3 sets of facial lifting procedures by 50.

The actresses who look strange due to plastic surgery, like Nicole Kidman, are actually the ones who hold out a lot longer, rely on injections alone for too long, and and don't do enough to their faces to have their procedures look harmonious.

Kidman looks strange because she's had substantially less plastic surgery than most of the actresses who look like they naturally age incredibly beautifully.

With plastic surgery when it comes to managing ageing, less isn't more, more is more. And not doing enough is what makes people look extremely strange, because either one procedure is out of balance, or too much is done at one time because they waited too long.

Proper Hollywood facelifts are never drastic anymore. They're almost imperceptible if they're started early enough and iterated frequently enough, and some start as young as their 20s now.

[Fru-Gal]

Yeah but a few of them who did it young do not look that good. Two that come to mind are Ariana Grande and Miley Cyrus. Both got way too pulled. Ariana got a botched (uneven) brow lift in her teens or 20s, then a ponytail lift that pulled her eyes so tight it looked painful. Another celebrity who looks botched in my opinion is Grimes, Elon’s ex/baby mama to X. She got a ponytail lift in her late 30s (was very open about it). Also Emily Blunt got cheek implants that seriously messed up the harmony of her face. Zach Efron also messed up the harmony of his face with cheek and jaw implants.

From what I’ve read & seen on YT beauty analysts, 3-4 facelifts is a maximum for most people, and you can run out of skin to pull. Plus the vectors for tightening have to be different each time. Starting very young is generally not a good idea. Personally I don’t believe Scarlett Johansson has had more than 1 facelift — frankly I even think one is dubious.

I say this because I watch a YouTube channel by Lorry Hill (herself addicted to/a fan of plastic surgery) and sometimes she’s spot on and sometimes I think she’s seeing something that’s not there. That said, I do believe she’s actually better than the plastic surgeons on YouTube who do the same kind of analysis. Here’s her video on ScarJo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWS9ltSJt70. She says she had one facelift around 2020 or 2021. Remember, she’s also a mom of 2 so it’s unlikely she would be getting facelifts around the times she was giving birth or raising babies.

[Fru-Gal]

Agreed that the injections have really not stood the test of time. So the facelift has to undo the mess made by the Botox and filler (Kidman and Madonna). And starting fillers and Botox very young is also not good. Among other things, you can become immune to Botox.

From what I’ve read, the sweet spot for a facelift is in your 50s. And it’s true that a well done one looks amazing, at least in pictures. However, I have seen, in person, wealthy elderly people with facelifts and they look like muppets. Like, the face looks tacked on and doesn’t move properly. Very scary.

And I’ve seen so many really beautiful elderly people who never had any surgery at all.

[Metalcat]

Yeah but a few of them who did it young do not look that good. Two that come to mind are Ariana Grande and Miley Cyrus. Both got way too pulled. Ariana got a botched (uneven) brow lift in her teens or 20s, then a ponytail lift that pulled her eyes so tight it looked painful. Another celebrity who looks botched in my opinion is Grimes, Elon’s ex/baby mama to X. She got a ponytail lift in her late 30s (was very open about it). Also Emily Blunt got cheek implants that seriously messed up the harmony of her face. Zach Efron also messed up the harmony of his face with cheek and jaw implants.

From what I’ve read & seen on YT beauty analysts, 3-4 facelifts is a maximum for most people, and you can run out of skin to pull. Plus the vectors for tightening have to be different each time. Starting very young is generally not a good idea. Personally I don’t believe Scarlett Johansson has had more than 1 facelift — frankly I even think one is dubious.

I say this because I watch a YouTube channel by Lorry Hill (herself addicted to/a fan of plastic surgery) and sometimes she’s spot on and sometimes I think she’s seeing something that’s not there. That said, I do believe she’s actually better than the plastic surgeons on YouTube who do the same kind of analysis. Here’s her video on ScarJo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWS9ltSJt70. She says she had one facelift around 2020 or 2021. Remember, she’s also a mom of 2 so it’s unlikely she would be getting facelifts around the times she was giving birth or raising babies.

Agree to disagree about Scarlet. I think she's had multiple facial lifting procedures, maybe not multiple full deep plane lifts, but multiple facial lifting procedures. This is still opinion, obviously, I'm not her doctor.

A lot of why the younger ones look so weird is because they're significantly changing their facial features. Ariana grande has completely remade her whole face, same with Bella Hadid.

There isn't any hard limit on how many facelifts someone can have, but as you said, there is a limit of how much tissue they can remove. So the number of lifts can increase the more conservatively they're done.

[Metalcat]

Agreed that the injections have really not stood the test of time. So the facelift has to undo the mess made by the Botox and filler (Kidman and Madonna). And starting fillers and Botox very young is also not good. Among other things, you can become immune to Botox.

From what I’ve read, the sweet spot for a facelift is in your 50s. And it’s true that a well done one looks amazing, at least in pictures. However, I have seen, in person, wealthy elderly people with facelifts and they look like muppets. Like, the face looks tacked on and doesn’t move properly. Very scary.

And I’ve seen so many really beautiful elderly people who never had any surgery at all.

Of course there are plenty of beautiful older people, I was talking about the celebrities who look really natural, but get better and better looking over time, as though they just magically age absolutely perfectly. I mean some people look stunning as they age, but it's not normal for your face to become more and more refined and balanced compared to your youth. That's the product of A LOT of carefully timed intervention from extremely talented surgeons.

That shit is not normal. It's from an inordinate amount of plastic surgery. There are some absolutely jackpot genetic lottery winners out there, but it's pretty rare, and I've very, very rarely seen a stunning woman over 50 who was less stunning when she was 30.

A lot of older folks with facelifts are just getting too much done at once. My aunt just had a massive deep plane facelift and she literally looks like a troll doll in person. It's horrifying. She waited until 70 to get it done, and either should have had much, much less tissue removed or just not done it at all.

But she looks completely insane. She has huge implants, a butt lift, it's all just unhinged. She quite literally looks like a bad drag queen these days.

The more anyone does in one procedure, the more uncanny valley it will look. But if someone is as minimal as it takes to really nail it flawlessly, they have to intervene much more frequently to keep up the results and maintain that optimal balance because virtually no one's face ages in a perfectly balanced way.

My whole point is that chasing cosmetic treatments beyond very minor interventions is just kind of insane either way. Either it will look whacky or will need a stupid number of procedures. Either way, it's pretty suboptimal and very high risk.

[RetiredAt63]

Agreed that the injections have really not stood the test of time. So the facelift has to undo the mess made by the Botox and filler (Kidman and Madonna). And starting fillers and Botox very young is also not good. Among other things, you can become immune to Botox.

From what I’ve read, the sweet spot for a facelift is in your 50s. And it’s true that a well done one looks amazing, at least in pictures. However, I have seen, in person, wealthy elderly people with facelifts and they look like muppets. Like, the face looks tacked on and doesn’t move properly. Very scary.

And I’ve seen so many really beautiful elderly people who never had any surgery at all.

Of course there are plenty of beautiful older people, I was talking about the celebrities who look really natural, but get better and better looking over time, as though they just magically age absolutely perfectly. I mean some people look stunning as they age, but it's not normal for your face to become more and more refined and balanced compared to your youth. That's the product of A LOT of carefully timed intervention from extremely talented surgeons.

That shit is not normal. It's from an inordinate amount of plastic surgery. There are some absolutely jackpot genetic lottery winners out there, but it's pretty rare, and I've very, very rarely seen a stunning woman over 50 who was less stunning when she was 30.

A lot of older folks with facelifts are just getting too much done at once. My aunt just had a massive deep plane facelift and she literally looks like a troll doll in person. It's horrifying. She waited until 70 to get it done, and either should have had much, much less tissue removed or just not done it at all.

But she looks completely insane. She has huge implants, a butt lift, it's all just unhinged. She quite literally looks like a bad drag queen these days.

The more anyone does in one procedure, the more uncanny valley it will look. But if someone is as minimal as it takes to really nail it flawlessly, they have to intervene much more frequently to keep up the results and maintain that optimal balance because virtually no one's face ages in a perfectly balanced way.

My whole point is that chasing cosmetic treatments beyond very minor interventions is just kind of insane either way. Either it will look whacky or will need a stupid number of procedures. Either way, it's pretty suboptimal and very high risk.

I suppose if your whole career depends on it, it is worth it if done right.

The rest of us just get to age gracefully, or however well we can manage.

I do think that there comes an age where we should have wrinkles and things, it shows our lived lives.    But, I think I have a variation of EDS, I have always looked about 10 years younger than I am.  if I looked 10 years older I am sure I would feel differently.    ;-)

[Metalcat]

Agreed that the injections have really not stood the test of time. So the facelift has to undo the mess made by the Botox and filler (Kidman and Madonna). And starting fillers and Botox very young is also not good. Among other things, you can become immune to Botox.

From what I’ve read, the sweet spot for a facelift is in your 50s. And it’s true that a well done one looks amazing, at least in pictures. However, I have seen, in person, wealthy elderly people with facelifts and they look like muppets. Like, the face looks tacked on and doesn’t move properly. Very scary.

And I’ve seen so many really beautiful elderly people who never had any surgery at all.

Of course there are plenty of beautiful older people, I was talking about the celebrities who look really natural, but get better and better looking over time, as though they just magically age absolutely perfectly. I mean some people look stunning as they age, but it's not normal for your face to become more and more refined and balanced compared to your youth. That's the product of A LOT of carefully timed intervention from extremely talented surgeons.

That shit is not normal. It's from an inordinate amount of plastic surgery. There are some absolutely jackpot genetic lottery winners out there, but it's pretty rare, and I've very, very rarely seen a stunning woman over 50 who was less stunning when she was 30.

A lot of older folks with facelifts are just getting too much done at once. My aunt just had a massive deep plane facelift and she literally looks like a troll doll in person. It's horrifying. She waited until 70 to get it done, and either should have had much, much less tissue removed or just not done it at all.

But she looks completely insane. She has huge implants, a butt lift, it's all just unhinged. She quite literally looks like a bad drag queen these days.

The more anyone does in one procedure, the more uncanny valley it will look. But if someone is as minimal as it takes to really nail it flawlessly, they have to intervene much more frequently to keep up the results and maintain that optimal balance because virtually no one's face ages in a perfectly balanced way.

My whole point is that chasing cosmetic treatments beyond very minor interventions is just kind of insane either way. Either it will look whacky or will need a stupid number of procedures. Either way, it's pretty suboptimal and very high risk.

I suppose if your whole career depends on it, it is worth it if done right.

The rest of us just get to age gracefully, or however well we can manage.

I do think that there comes an age where we should have wrinkles and things, it shows our lived lives.    But, I think I have a variation of EDS, I have always looked about 10 years younger than I am.  if I looked 10 years older I am sure I would feel differently.    ;-)

That's kind of my point though, even people who get the very best plastic surgery, and lost of it, don't necessarily look younger or wrinkle free, they just look like their aging extremely gracefully.

Anyone who tries to fight the inevitability of aging through cosmetic procedures will end up looking extremely strange. But to get that absolutely perfect graceful aging look takes way, way more plastic surgery than most people realize, and I just can't see that making any sense for any normal human.

I intend to get some procedures done. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that everyone in my family needs a blepharoplasty eventually or else we can't see. It's just a given that I'll need one in my 50s. That's a pretty superficial procedure though as far as surgeries go.

But I would personally rather invest thousands in therapy to overcome my own ageism rather than spend more thousands trying to rearrange my face in ways that actually make the psychological problem worse.

I'm not at all against plastic surgery. But there's a fine line between reasonable interventions to restore harmony and balance when something gets out of whack vs trying to escape an unavoidable and natural process altogether.

When my mom had her bleph surgery in her 50s, you could barely see her eyes, she looked like she was always squinting. She was able to get the procedure covered because it affected her vision. After surgery she didn't so much look younger as she looked more like herself.

She looks quite old for her age, easily 10-15 years older than she is, but she looks vibrant, and to me, that's so beautiful. I'll be happy to look like her in the future. I'll definitely need the same bleph and the same breast lift and reduction, so I have the blueprint laid out for me, lol.

But I'm not afraid of looking older. I certainly don't want boulder breasts down to my pants like my mom had, nor do I want eyelids so droopy that no one could possibly tell what colour my eyes are, but the idea of looking my age doesn't bother me.

[jeninco]

I’m right there with metal on knowing I’ll need my eyelids done (at the latest, they will have to be done before I can have cataract surgery) for genetic reasons that are obvious to anyone looking at photos of my family. Otherwise, I guess we will see? I have an obvious advantage of being able to work out hard several times/week, and I live in a place where the standard for faces is “been outdoors some”

[Metalcat]

I’m right there with metal on knowing I’ll need my eyelids done (at the latest, they will have to be done before I can have cataract surgery) for genetic reasons that are obvious to anyone looking at photos of my family. Otherwise, I guess we will see? I have an obvious advantage of being able to work out hard several times/week, and I live in a place where the standard for faces is “been outdoors some”

Lol, I'm in Newfoundland where the standard is to be an alcoholic, smoker who eats way too much deep fried food and potatoes , doesn't like vegetables, and doesn't bother replacing missing teeth. 

I feel zero pressure to fear aging out here.

[Kmp2]

I’m right there with metal on knowing I’ll need my eyelids done (at the latest, they will have to be done before I can have cataract surgery) for genetic reasons that are obvious to anyone looking at photos of my family. Otherwise, I guess we will see? I have an obvious advantage of being able to work out hard several times/week, and I live in a place where the standard for faces is “been outdoors some”

Lol, I'm in Newfoundland where the standard is to be an alcoholic, smoker who eats way too much deep fried food and potatoes , doesn't like vegetables, and doesn't bother replacing missing teeth. 

I feel zero pressure to fear aging out here.

First @Metalcat many thanks for your contributions to this thread, I've learned much and have many things to think about! I've always thought people who value themselves only for their beauty would struggle with aging, but now I'm watching people who value their physical strength struggle too. I guess you could also struggle if its your cognitive ability that you value most too. Thanks for reminding me that it's important to remember that good quality of life exists even as these three things decline. I'd say the adjustment is similar to becoming a parent, things are different and if you mourn what you can't do instead of focusing on what you can do you struggle. Practice gratitude, instead of focusing on what you've lost.

Second - I've been to NL once, and the battered fried everything almost killed me! I wanted to eat so much seafood, but not battered and fried, with potatoes...

[Metalcat]

I’m right there with metal on knowing I’ll need my eyelids done (at the latest, they will have to be done before I can have cataract surgery) for genetic reasons that are obvious to anyone looking at photos of my family. Otherwise, I guess we will see? I have an obvious advantage of being able to work out hard several times/week, and I live in a place where the standard for faces is “been outdoors some”

Lol, I'm in Newfoundland where the standard is to be an alcoholic, smoker who eats way too much deep fried food and potatoes , doesn't like vegetables, and doesn't bother replacing missing teeth. 

I feel zero pressure to fear aging out here.

First @Metalcat many thanks for your contributions to this thread, I've learned much and have many things to think about! I've always thought people who value themselves only for their beauty would struggle with aging, but now I'm watching people who value their physical strength struggle too. I guess you could also struggle if its your cognitive ability that you value most too. Thanks for reminding me that it's important to remember that good quality of life exists even as these three things decline. I'd say the adjustment is similar to becoming a parent, things are different and if you mourn what you can't do instead of focusing on what you can do you struggle. Practice gratitude, instead of focusing on what you've lost.

Second - I've been to NL once, and the battered fried everything almost killed me! I wanted to eat so much seafood, but not battered and fried, with potatoes...

Funnily enough, I'm actually not a fan of the concept of "practicing gratitude." I've come to understand that gratitude is really a state you arrive at, not an action you can take.

I get the concept of turning your attention towards the things you are already grateful for, which is actually what the phrase is supposed to men, but unfortunately in our ultra toxic-positivity culture, the concept of "practicing gratitude" often gets misinterpreted as "pressure yourself to feel grateful," when you really should probably be leaning into your own grief in order to process it properly.

Mortality and loss of parts of self are HUGE existential concepts that deserve to be processed thoroughly. The problem isn't focusing on what's lost, the problem is feeling like your life and your self are less valuable because of what you've lost. But you can't arrive at a place of gratitude unless and until you fully grieve whatever it is you need to grieve.

I get A LOT of clients who have had years of therapy and the first thing I have to do is deconstruct their toxic-positivity, gratitude battering rams that they beat themselves into submission with, lol. My goal is always to make them feel so, so much worse, to really fully feel it, so that they can actually process loss of self properly.

Only then do they just naturally, one day, arrive at a place of profound gratitude and peace. It's really cool to see.

We approach aging and disability so fucking ass-backwards in our society, it's literally embarrassing. I can't believe the utter nonsense I have to deconstruct every time I get a new client. I just shake my head and always think "why do we do this to ourselves?"

[Fru-Gal]

Definitely. Toxic positivity is not what positive psychology is about at all.

Positive psychology is a branch of psychology that focuses on positive aspects of the human experience — concepts like resilience, optimism and gratitude — instead of mental illness and dysfunction.

Martin Seligman, the "father of positive psychology," played a pivotal role. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is known for his work on "flow states," while Barbara Fredrickson's broaden-and-build theory of positive emotions is a powerful model for finding inspired solutions to life's problems. I always recommend Shawn Achor's book.

Limiting beliefs are so insidious. That's where approaches like Byron Katie's The Work or non-duality philosophies come into play. Though any religious text has a ton of language around the power of belief.

Personally from my brief exposure to it, I still find something like the Work to be uninspiring. I want to strive for beauty in the world, it's one of my deepest motivators. I believe other people are motivated more by beauty and curiosity than by fear, anger and force. I've already achieved many results in this way (won't go into it here but it has to do with transforming my community).

So, a pro tip achieving results with positive thinking is, all you need is a sliver of belief that something is possible. For example, say for the purposes of this thread, you believe you are "rapidly aging" due to some factor you have recently fixated on -- or just in general, "aging" and you think this is a bad thing. If you can imagine reading a headline that says "scientists discover anti-aging force field that causes others to see you as extremely vibrant", that's all you need. You can discard this concern for the short term, telling yourself, well, when it comes time, I will definitely investigate that force field stuff. Let go of the concern for an hour, a day, a week, 10 years.

But certainly, people love to complain and cling to suffering. I'm no different. It's hard, never-ending work rebuilding your beliefs. I also know that most people won't resonate with what I say. I still put it out there because maybe there's one person for whom this will be a godsend, like it was for me when I was at the lowest point in my life. You have to imagine your way out.

[Kmp2]

Ah, gotcha. Definitely a gratitude practice to avoid grieving would definitely be toxic positivity. But interesting how quality of life and gratitude comes after the grieving process as part of acceptance? Then you don't actually really focus on it, it's just what happens.

I'm more of a stockdale paradox kind of girl... definitely not an optimist (I say realist, but many would call me a pessimist lol). I do keep adjusting my view of what success looks like as more life (and knowledge) is thrown my way - which is just akin to acceptance of the paths in front of me.

@Fru-Gal  I'm surprised to see resilience in your list of toxic positivity, I can understand that gratitude in place of grieving would be toxic, and optimism is obvious. I could see resilience in terms of surviving abuse etc. as toxic, but my view of resilience is more about building it in our kids by ensuring they have unsupervised time to get into (age appropriate) trouble and find their way out of it.
As opposed to moving straight from 100% supervised play, to being within a cell phone call or internet search of help all the time.  Just some space to learn self-reliance before your bombarded with social media/google maps etc. (a la Free range kids)

[Fru-Gal]

Definitely. Toxic positivity is not what positive psychology is about at all.

Positive psychology is a branch of psychology that focuses on positive aspects of the human experience instead of mental illness and dysfunction -- concepts like resilience, optimism and gratitude.

Martin Seligman, the "father of positive psychology," played a pivotal role. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is known for his work on "flow states," while Barbara Fredrickson's broaden-and-build theory of positive emotions is a powerful model for finding inspired solutions to life's problems. I always recommend Shawn Achor's book.

Limiting beliefs are so insidious. That's where approaches like Byron Katie's The Work or non-duality philosophies come into play. Though any religious text has a ton of language around the power of belief.

Personally from my brief exposure to it, I still find something like the Work to be uninspiring. I want to strive for beauty in the world, it's one of my deepest motivators. I believe other people are motivated more by beauty and curiosity than by fear, anger and force. I've already achieved many results in this way (won't go into it here but it has to do with transforming my community).

So, a pro tip achieving results with positive thinking is, all you need is a sliver of belief that something is possible. For example, say for the purposes of this thread, you believe you are "rapidly aging" due to some factor you have recently fixated on -- or just in general, "aging" and you think this is a bad thing. If you can imagine reading a headline that says "scientists discover anti-aging force field that causes others to see you as extremely vibrant", that's all you need. You can discard this concern for the short term, telling yourself, well, when it comes time, I will definitely investigate that force field stuff. Let go of the concern for an hour, a day, a week, 10 years.

But certainly, people love to complain and cling to suffering. I'm no different. It's hard, never-ending work rebuilding your beliefs. I also know that most people won't resonate with what I say. I still put it out there because maybe there's one person for whom this will be a godsend, like it was for me when I was at the lowest point in my life. You have to imagine your way out.

I have been thinking more about the beliefs mentioned above. They weren’t the greatest example of beauty beliefs. To be clear, there is nothing wrong with believing or wanting any surgical or artificial intervention that you wish to do. Indeed, the reason plastic surgery is so addictive is because the entire process is an exercise in wish fulfillment and goal achievement and belief. No one would pay thousands of dollars and go under anesthesia and get surgery in the first place if they didn’t believe in the magical power of the surgery to transform their self-belief. Unfortunately, the anticipation, suffering, healing, and high wear off eventually, and then it’s back to the operating table for some more.

In fact, this is in the book that MMM recommended years ago, Pyscho-Cybernetics  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho-Cybernetics. Maxwell Maltz discovered that the power of plastic surgery to transform self-concept and life trajectory was effective sometimes, but also had limits. He came to posit that unconscious beliefs were far more effective than actual interventions.

A better example of a crazy scientific headline that you can use as a kernel of new belief is the recent discovery that humans can grow a third set of teeth. Of course it takes time and is extremely experimental. But how different is it from someone getting a titanium heart or a face transplant. So many impossible things are coming true.

And of course if it is your deepest wish to transform yourself in any way you like, you should do it (assuming you harm no one else).

But the free-floating anxiety around aging is sub optimal — it’s scarcity-based, distracts from true purpose, and misguided (focusing on form over function). It’s also misogynistic. Hence all these notes so I can write a book on the true power of aging.

[Fru-Gal]

Ah, gotcha. Definitely a gratitude practice to avoid grieving would definitely be toxic positivity. But interesting how quality of life and gratitude comes after the grieving process as part of acceptance? Then you don't actually really focus on it, it's just what happens.

I'm more of a stockdale paradox kind of girl... definitely not an optimist (I say realist, but many would call me a pessimist lol). I do keep adjusting my view of what success looks like as more life (and knowledge) is thrown my way - which is just akin to acceptance of the paths in front of me.

@Fru-Gal  I'm surprised to see resilience in your list of toxic positivity, I can understand that gratitude in place of grieving would be toxic, and optimism is obvious. I could see resilience in terms of surviving abuse etc. as toxic, but my view of resilience is more about building it in our kids by ensuring they have unsupervised time to get into (age appropriate) trouble and find their way out of it.
As opposed to moving straight from 100% supervised play, to being within a cell phone call or internet search of help all the time.  Just some space to learn self-reliance before your bombarded with social media/google maps etc. (a la Free range kids)

Oh, bad sentence construction on my part. Resilience, optimism and gratitude are good.

[OzzieandHarriet]

I feel okay about how I look as a woman pushing 70 until I take a selfie.

[Fru-Gal]

I feel okay about how I look as a woman pushing 70 until I take a selfie.

https://youtu.be/QbxinUJcLGg?

[OzzieandHarriet]

I feel okay about how I look as a woman pushing 70 until I take a selfie.

https://youtu.be/QbxinUJcLGg?

Interesting, but I meant more the phenomenon of the phone camera selfie distorting how one looks to the point of grotesquerie.

https://www.slrlounge.com/why-your-selfies-look-awful-what-can-is-being-done-to-look-better-in-selfies/

And that on top of the normal aging-face issues (which I accept - I’m not planning on getting any “work” done, that’s for sure!) can be alarming.

[Fru-Gal]

I feel okay about how I look as a woman pushing 70 until I take a selfie.

https://youtu.be/QbxinUJcLGg?

Interesting, but I meant more the phenomenon of the phone camera selfie distorting how one looks to the point of grotesquerie.

https://www.slrlounge.com/why-your-selfies-look-awful-what-can-is-being-done-to-look-better-in-selfies/

And that on top of the normal aging-face issues (which I accept - I’m not planning on getting any “work” done, that’s for sure!) can be alarming.

Oh yeah… apparently there was a phenomenon a few years back where people wanted surgery so their selfies would look better. But then filters were invented, so no need.

[Metalcat]

I feel okay about how I look as a woman pushing 70 until I take a selfie.

https://youtu.be/QbxinUJcLGg?

Interesting, but I meant more the phenomenon of the phone camera selfie distorting how one looks to the point of grotesquerie.

https://www.slrlounge.com/why-your-selfies-look-awful-what-can-is-being-done-to-look-better-in-selfies/

And that on top of the normal aging-face issues (which I accept - I’m not planning on getting any “work” done, that’s for sure!) can be alarming.

Oh yeah… apparently there was a phenomenon a few years back where people wanted surgery so their selfies would look better. But then filters were invented, so no need.

Except that how the filters are driving even more unrealistic expectations and driving people to get plastic surgery to look like the filters.

Plus they drive a lot of facial dysmorphia, and facial dysmorphia is bonkers. I use to do esthetic work earlier in my career and I couldn't stand managing the dysmorohia. Fucking atrocious experience.