Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate

[GuitarStv]

I don't think those are the kinds of jobs we want to base our economy on in teh first place. Most of the manufacturing jobs that we're talking about are actually low-wage, low skill, high volume factories. It works in China because there's a huge population of unskilled workers who can be paid a fraction of what would be given in the US. To make it work in the US machines would replace the workers, and you'd be left with what most of US manufactoring already is; a few dozen highly-skilled technicians overseeing a largely mechanized factory that in previous decades would have employed a few thousand unskilled laborers.

I previously worked for a manufacturing company with factories all over the world. Our plant in the UK was totally automated and required only a few people to run, because labor is expensive in Europe. Our plant in China was very simple and used dozens of workers at a time, because labor was cheaper than automation.

The dream of returning to the days of every worker on an American assembly line making a middle-class income and retiring at 55 is just that, a dream. It was a historical aberration in the 1950s-70s, and it's never coming back unless another World War destroys every other manufacturing economy on the planet like the last one did.

Well, keep your fingers crossed . . . Putin has been pretty belligerent lately.

[sol]

The dream of returning to the days of every worker on an American assembly line making a middle-class income and retiring at 55 is just that, a dream. It was a historical aberration in the 1950s-70s, and it's never coming back unless another World War destroys every other manufacturing economy on the planet like the last one did.

I think it's a valid point, and one that can't be made often enough to people who lament the apparent "decline" of the US manufacturing economy.  That period of their childhoods that they remember so fondly, of raising an entire family on a single factory job income, was the result of a horrendous market distortion bought with the blood of our allies and enemies alike.  The current global diversification of the manufacturing base is just everything slowly returning to the way it used to be, and probably should be.  The US hasn't lost anything it wasn't supposed to have in the first place.

[nereo]

The dream of returning to the days of every worker on an American assembly line making a middle-class income and retiring at 55 is just that, a dream. It was a historical aberration in the 1950s-70s, and it's never coming back unless another World War destroys every other manufacturing economy on the planet like the last one did.

I think it's a valid point, and one that can't be made often enough to people who lament the apparent "decline" of the US manufacturing economy.  That period of their childhoods that they remember so fondly, of raising an entire family on a single factory job income, was the result of a horrendous market distortion bought with the blood of our allies and enemies alike.  The current global diversification of the manufacturing base is just everything slowly returning to the way it used to be, and probably should be.  The US hasn't lost anything it wasn't supposed to have in the first place.

I think WWII (and the global destruction of factories outside North America) allowed the US to hold onto its domestic factory jobs far longer than we otherwise would have.  Prior to WWII manufacturing was far more regional as air-freight didn't exist, interstates didn't exist, powered ocean-liners were relatively new and trans-atlantic/pacific communication was difficult at best. Regional factories thrived up until the world wars because they weren't competing with other regions.
We've got a global economy now, and that genie won't go back into his bottle.

[Kris]

The dream of returning to the days of every worker on an American assembly line making a middle-class income and retiring at 55 is just that, a dream. It was a historical aberration in the 1950s-70s, and it's never coming back unless another World War destroys every other manufacturing economy on the planet like the last one did.

I think it's a valid point, and one that can't be made often enough to people who lament the apparent "decline" of the US manufacturing economy.  That period of their childhoods that they remember so fondly, of raising an entire family on a single factory job income, was the result of a horrendous market distortion bought with the blood of our allies and enemies alike.  The current global diversification of the manufacturing base is just everything slowly returning to the way it used to be, and probably should be.  The US hasn't lost anything it wasn't supposed to have in the first place.

I think WWII (and the global destruction of factories outside North America) allowed the US to hold onto its domestic factory jobs far longer than we otherwise would have.  Prior to WWII manufacturing was far more regional as air-freight didn't exist, interstates didn't exist, powered ocean-liners were relatively new and trans-atlantic/pacific communication was difficult at best. Regional factories thrived up until the world wars because they weren't competing with other regions.
We've got a global economy now, and that genie won't go back into his bottle.

Exactly. And that decline began in the late seventies and early eighties. It is not new, it is not going away. And any candidate who implies or states the contrary should be ashamed for exploiting a fantasy born of economic insecurity and desperation.

[jrhampt]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/a-clue-to-the-whereabouts-of-the-6-foot-tall-portrait-of-donald-trump/2016/09/14/ae65db82-7a8f-11e6-ac8e-cf8e0dd91dc7_story.html

“You want to debate foundations and charities?” Obama said. “One candidate’s family foundation has saved countless lives around the world. The other candidate’s foundation took money other people gave to his charity and then bought a six-foot-tall painting of himself.”

[nereo]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/a-clue-to-the-whereabouts-of-the-6-foot-tall-portrait-of-donald-trump/2016/09/14/ae65db82-7a8f-11e6-ac8e-cf8e0dd91dc7_story.html

“You want to debate foundations and charities?” Obama said. “One candidate’s family foundation has saved countless lives around the world. The other candidate’s foundation took money other people gave to his charity and then bought a six-foot-tall painting of himself.”

The Trump Foundation has become a big negative for me. Not only is Trump not using his own money for charitable donations he's promised, but he uses the charity to settle legal disputes, buy a portrait of himself and purchase sports memorabilia.

[hoping2retire35]

Relevant article, probably was already brought up
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/05/12/this-professor-has-predicted-every-presidential-election-since-1984-hes-still-trying-to-figure-out-2016/
I came up with lots of false answers. 7/8 depending

[hoping2retire35]

Relevant article, probably was already brought up
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/05/12/this-professor-has-predicted-every-presidential-election-since-1984-hes-still-trying-to-figure-out-2016/
I came up with lots of false answers. 7/8 depending

lol, quoting myself
as you see I posted this article i found two days ago when I was searching around then this is published today.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/23/trump-is-headed-for-a-win-says-professor-whos-predicted-30-years-of-presidential-outcomes-correctly/

[cube.37]

Relevant article, probably was already brought up
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/05/12/this-professor-has-predicted-every-presidential-election-since-1984-hes-still-trying-to-figure-out-2016/
I came up with lots of false answers. 7/8 depending

lol, quoting myself
as you see I posted this article i found two days ago when I was searching around then this is published today.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/23/trump-is-headed-for-a-win-says-professor-whos-predicted-30-years-of-presidential-outcomes-correctly/

"So this would also suggest, you know, the possibility this election could go either way." Talk about giving yourself an out.

[Jeremy E.]

More true now than ever...

[Roland of Gilead]

I read today one of Hillary's plans to modify SS is to expand benefits to women, supposedly because they have fewer earning years due to child care.

Sounds great except it leaves out stay at home Dads like my brother and also does not make any mention that women statistically live longer than men.   Really what you should do is have full retirement age for women be 68 and 66 or 67 for men.   That probably would not earn her the vote that this ploy will.

[arebelspy]

Sounds great except it leaves out stay at home Dads like my brother

How would they account for that?

Easiest way?  Don't bother!  UBI!  :)

[thd7t]

I read today one of Hillary's plans to modify SS is to expand benefits to women, supposedly because they have fewer earning years due to child care.

Sounds great except it leaves out stay at home Dads like my brother and also does not make any mention that women statistically live longer than men.   Really what you should do is have full retirement age for women be 68 and 66 or 67 for men.   That probably would not earn her the vote that this ploy will.

Can you post a link to this? It's unlikely to be gender specific, as that's not legal, but may be aimed at stay-at-home parents (most of whom may be women).

Edit: searched her site. It says it would expand benefits for "those who have taken time from the workforce to give care". So your brother would be included.

[Metric Mouse]

More true now than ever...

I love it. I would guess they'd be much more expensive over the following year if Hilary is elected...

[Gin1984]

I read today one of Hillary's plans to modify SS is to expand benefits to women, supposedly because they have fewer earning years due to child care.

Sounds great except it leaves out stay at home Dads like my brother and also does not make any mention that women statistically live longer than men.   Really what you should do is have full retirement age for women be 68 and 66 or 67 for men.   That probably would not earn her the vote that this ploy will.

And that would be illegal, just FYI. 

[HPstache]

What would it take from the new Wikileaks e-mails which are supposidely today going to be released for for Hillary supporters on here to switch to a 3rd party?

[NoStacheOhio]

What would it take from the new Wikileaks e-mails which are supposidely today going to be released for for Hillary supporters on here to switch to a 3rd party?

A fifth party.



For the record, I support none of the current candidates, and it makes me sad.

[nereo]

What would it take from the new Wikileaks e-mails which are supposidely today going to be released for for Hillary supporters on here to switch to a 3rd party?

Now is that wasn't the most obvious click-bait ever... wikileaks failed to deliver anything at all.  Maybe that's because there isn't anything to se...
The negatives surrounding Clinton have been known for months and sometimes years.  Trump keeps adding more to his negative column every week. 

[Northwestie]

What would it take from the new Wikileaks e-mails which are supposidely today going to be released for for Hillary supporters on here to switch to a 3rd party?

Now is that wasn't the most obvious click-bait ever... wikileaks failed to deliver anything at all.  Maybe that's because there isn't anything to se...
The negatives surrounding Clinton have been known for months and sometimes years.  Trump keeps adding more to his negative column every week.

I think he is bringing in his stylist today to state, unequivocally, that his hair is its natural color.

[nereo]

What would it take from the new Wikileaks e-mails which are supposidely today going to be released for for Hillary supporters on here to switch to a 3rd party?

Now is that wasn't the most obvious click-bait ever... wikileaks failed to deliver anything at all.  Maybe that's because there isn't anything to se...
The negatives surrounding Clinton have been known for months and sometimes years.  Trump keeps adding more to his negative column every week.

I think he is bringing in his stylist today to state, unequivocally, that his hair is its natural color.

I thought Trump took great pride in cutting his own hair - is that not the case?

[Scandium]

I'm a little concerned as to how Trump's approach towards free trade (in particular with China) would affect the world economy.

If he puts large tariffs on Chinese-made goods, it might not just be China that feels the repercussions.

Then again, it might revitalise US manufacturing. Who knows, really.

I'd like to see what Trumps white-trash voters think after his tariffs quadruple prices at the local walmart. They want more "made in USA?" I saw some jeans made in US. They cost $200+..

[Jeremy E.]

I'm a little concerned as to how Trump's approach towards free trade (in particular with China) would affect the world economy.

If he puts large tariffs on Chinese-made goods, it might not just be China that feels the repercussions.

Then again, it might revitalise US manufacturing. Who knows, really.

I'd like to see what Trumps white-trash voters think after his tariffs quadruple prices at the local walmart. They want more "made in USA?" I saw some jeans made in US. They cost $200+..

I agree that Trumps policies would hurt our economy, but let's leave white trash people out of it, some of us white trash people are voting for Johnson, and also don't like being called white trash.

[Jack]

I'm a little concerned as to how Trump's approach towards free trade (in particular with China) would affect the world economy.

If he puts large tariffs on Chinese-made goods, it might not just be China that feels the repercussions.

Then again, it might revitalise US manufacturing. Who knows, really.

I'd like to see what Trumps white-trash voters think after his tariffs quadruple prices at the local walmart. They want more "made in USA?" I saw some jeans made in US. They cost $200+..

I agree that Trumps policies would hurt our economy, but let's leave white trash people out of it, some of us white trash people are voting for Johnson, and also don't like being called white trash.

While it's certainly possible for Johnson voters to be white, I'm not convinced that anyone who pays enough attention to know he exists can be called "trash."

[geekette]

IMHO, voting for Johnson is like betting on purple instead of red or black, because, dangit, you like purple.

[Jeremy E.]

I live in a trailer in a 300 person town and shop at the wal mart in the next town, er go, white trash. But we prefer to be called trailer park boys, and I personally don't like the association of white trash people and Trump, and also think that white trash is a derogatory term and is stooping to Trumps level in terms of name calling

[jim555]

World trade restrictions will be bad for everyone.  Trade wars /reciprocal tariffs.  Not good for my investments, not good for goods prices.  Dumb idea.  Only those who do not understand economics would propose such nonsense.

[Jack]

IMHO, voting for Johnson is like betting on purple instead of red or black, because, dangit, you like purple.

No, it's like betting on green.

I live in a trailer in a 300 person town and shop at the wal mart in the next town, er go, white trash.

What does any of that have to do with being "white trash?" What you described is nothing more than generically rural.

White trash isn't indicated by living in a trailer; it's indicated by (for example) sitting on an old couch in the front yard next to a pile of beer cans, yelling expletives at minorities passers-by while waiting for the mailman to bring the welfare check. It's a measure of behavior, not circumstance.

[geekette]

IMHO, voting for Johnson is like betting on purple instead of red or black, because, dangit, you like purple.

No, it's like betting on green.

Ah, but if you bet on green, you actually have a chance of winning. Not so with Johnson.

[Jeremy E.]

IMHO, voting for Johnson is like betting on purple instead of red or black, because, dangit, you like purple.

No, it's like betting on green.

I live in a trailer in a 300 person town and shop at the wal mart in the next town, er go, white trash.

What does any of that have to do with being "white trash?" What you described is nothing more than generically rural.

White trash isn't indicated by living in a trailer; it's indicated by (for example) sitting on an old couch in the front yard next to a pile of beer cans, yelling expletives at minorities passers-by while waiting for the mailman to bring the welfare check. It's a measure of behavior, not circumstance.

White trash is a derogatory racial slur that generally refers to poor white people, people living in a trailer are generally thought of as poor.

[alsoknownasDean]

I'm a little concerned as to how Trump's approach towards free trade (in particular with China) would affect the world economy.

If he puts large tariffs on Chinese-made goods, it might not just be China that feels the repercussions.

Then again, it might revitalise US manufacturing. Who knows, really.

I'd like to see what Trumps white-trash voters think after his tariffs quadruple prices at the local walmart. They want more "made in USA?" I saw some jeans made in US. They cost $200+..

Yeah well I've seen (and purchased) jeans made in Australia (RM Williams, which I'm sure include a fair bit of margin) that are around that. I'm sure if bulk 'mass market' jeans were produced in the US in either low-wage states or heavily automated plants, that they'd be cheaper (maybe not as cheap as jeans from Bangladesh, but still). Although, would many Americans be keen on working in a clothing factory on minimum wage?

If tariffs are imposed on Chinese-made goods in the USA, then the Chinese economy would suffer, and any countries that export to China would also suffer. Would any potential increase in US manufacturing offset that decline in demand? I guess raw materials would be needed for the wall that Trump wants to build.

Also, the USA is home to a lot of multinationals. How would they be impacted by more protectionist policies in the USA?

Would significant tax cuts (and an increase in military spending) be appropriate when there's a huge national debt and a trillion dollar deficit? Could it result in a further decline in the US credit rating?

[Vertical Mode]

IMHO, voting for Johnson is like betting on purple instead of red or black, because, dangit, you like purple.

No, it's like betting on green.

Ah, but if you bet on green, you actually have a chance of winning. Not so with Johnson.

The equivalent to "betting on green" in this election may actually be to vote for Evan McMullin.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/polls-may-be-underestimating-evan-mcmullins-chances-in-utah/

[nereo]

IMHO, voting for Johnson is like betting on purple instead of red or black, because, dangit, you like purple.

No, it's like betting on green.

Ah, but if you bet on green, you actually have a chance of winning. Not so with Johnson.

The equivalent to "betting on green" in this election may actually be to vote for Evan McMullin.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/polls-may-be-underestimating-evan-mcmullins-chances-in-utah/

I'm aware there is a theory on how McMullins could become president winning only Utah (probably with only a plurality). It would be an absolute tempest if this were to happen, and not at all how our government was supposed to work.

[arebelspy]

I'm aware there is a theory on how McMullins could become president winning only Utah (probably with only a plurality). It would be an absolute tempest if this were to happen, and not at all how our government was supposed to work.

Hah.  Our system is crazy.  :)

[Glenstache]

I found this an amusing comparison of the candidates:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/10/clinton_vs_trump_whose_crimes_are_worse.html

[nereo]

I found this an amusing comparison of the candidates:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/10/clinton_vs_trump_whose_crimes_are_worse.html

Ah, Slate... the Fox News of the left!

[Glenstache]

I found this an amusing comparison of the candidates:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/10/clinton_vs_trump_whose_crimes_are_worse.html

Ah, Slate... the Fox News of the left!

True that. Amusing red meat for those inclined to vote in the same direction.

[Northwestie]

I found this an amusing comparison of the candidates:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/10/clinton_vs_trump_whose_crimes_are_worse.html

Ouch!

[Metric Mouse]

I found this an amusing comparison of the candidates:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/10/clinton_vs_trump_whose_crimes_are_worse.html

Ah, Slate... the Fox News of the left!

True that. Amusing red meat for those inclined to vote in the same direction.

Ha. Yeah, not knowing the term Brexit a month before the vote, and the story, blew up. What a corrupt moral failing.

I guess anything can be a 'scandal' if one gets outraged enough about it. :D

[arebelspy]

On March 1, over 8 months ago, I wrote:

Well, with Super Tuesday mere hours away, time to put my prediction down:

This November, Trump defeats Hillary.

(Please note that a prediction is different than a wish.)

At the time, Trump was considered a long shot (to Cruz or Rubio, mostly, though there were a few others) to even win his primary.  Hillary (despite a surprisingly rousing contest from Bernie) was very likely to win hers, though.

Here we are.

Can't say I didn't warn you.

Oh, and let's not forget that I added, in the very next post:

Oh, and let me double down: despite what is routinely agreed upon as a disastrous first term, Trump gets reelected in 2020.

Again... can't say I didn't warn you.

[Dicey]

On March 1, over 8 months ago, I wrote:

Well, with Super Tuesday mere hours away, time to put my prediction down:

This November, Trump defeats Hillary.

(Please note that a prediction is different than a wish.)

At the time, Trump was considered a long shot (to Cruz or Rubio, mostly, though there were a few others) to even win his primary.  Hillary (despite a surprisingly rousing contest from Bernie) was very likely to win hers, though.

Here we are.

Can't say I didn't warn you.

Oh, and let's not forget that I added, in the very next post:

Oh, and let me double down: despite what is routinely agreed upon as a disastrous first term, Trump gets reelected in 2020.

Again... can't say I didn't warn you.

Does this mean that the world as we know it won't have come to a disastrous end by 2020?

[arebelspy]

Nope, the world will not end in the next four years.

[pbkmaine]

Nope, the world will not end in the next four years.

What do you think will happen, ARS?

[VladTheImpaler]

Nope, the world will not end in the next four years.

What do you think will happen, ARS?

People overestimate the power of the President.
The role is a figure head. Common people want a leader who appears STRONG and CONFIDENT.
This is why actors make such good politicians...Ronald Reagan, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Donald Trump (reality tv star), etc.
I'm not worried, legislation must be approved by The House and Senate before being passed into law.

[arebelspy]

Nope, the world will not end in the next four years.

What do you think will happen, ARS?

People overestimate the power of the President.
The role is a figure head. Common people want a leader who appears STRONG and CONFIDENT.
This is why actors make such good politicians...Ronald Reagan, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Donald Trump (reality tv star), etc.
I'm not worried, legislation must be approved by The House and Senate before being passed into law.

I'd be less worried if Dems had the Senate.

Reps having house, Senate, and presidency (someone who they didn't like at first, but I think will work with to get what they want done) means a lot of legislation setting us back is passed.

You're right, it's not just the president with the power, but it's not just the president I'm worried about right now.

Though I am worried about those Supreme Court nominations. That is one of his/her biggest powers.

[arebelspy]

Nope, the world will not end in the next four years.

What do you think will happen, ARS?

Too broad of a question for me to answer.  :)

A lot of things!

[pbkmaine]

Supreme Court is my biggest worry as well.

[acroy]

Ha! Drain the swamp. Let's see what he does. This is a how a representative country revolts. Brexit, Philippines, Iceland, soon France, Italy...

They don't like either candidate, but they disliked Hillary a little bit more...

The nasty Dem primary delivered the election to Trump. Bernie was the dem populist candidate, done in by his own party. Bernie could have beat Trump. Obama came out of nowhere in '08 and disrupted Hillary the first time. It was supposed to happen again. DNC done shot themselves in the foot, big time.

[hoping2retire35]

Oh, and let me double down: despite what is routinely agreed upon as a disastrous first term, Trump gets reelected in 2020.

I agree with both, and the sentiment. the only thing I see stopping him from being reelected is the Tea Party realizes he is not one of them combined with a vindictive establishment. or another transitional candidate like trump, i.e.; the anti-trump.

I'll only change this to say that the tea party (or whatever remains of it) will not go against trump.

A trump Supreme Court nominee will not repeal Roe and that will not become clear until after 2020, delaying the tea party revolt.

Establishment lobbyist will realign, slowly, with democrats (too many Dem leaders who would be repulsed by this now).

Still trying to come up with some scenarios of a transitional anti-trump. Nothing yet, strongly comes to mind.

[brooklynguy]

Can't say I didn't warn you.

Over eight months ago, one day after your warning, I wrote this:

The success of Trump's candidacy is seriously, honestly causing me to lose hope about the long-term future of the world.  Again, the parallels being drawn between the content of Trump's rhetoric and modern society's greatest atrocities are not hyperbolic.  Yet in spite of that, or because of that, his campaign is finding wild success among the population at large.  He's tapping into an ugliness of human society that is always there--when not openly on display on the surface then hiding latent just below it--and making me doubt our ability to ever truly rise above it.  Civilization is hideously fragile, and once again we're starting to witness the removal of the varnish separating us from the horrors underneath.

And I just spent the last eleven hours still feeling that way, in a state of near-total despair at our civilization apparently crumbling around us.  Then I read this (WBW:  It's Going to Be Okay), and now I feel much better.

[pbkmaine]

Can't say I didn't warn you.

Over eight months ago, one day after your warning, I wrote this:

The success of Trump's candidacy is seriously, honestly causing me to lose hope about the long-term future of the world.  Again, the parallels being drawn between the content of Trump's rhetoric and modern society's greatest atrocities are not hyperbolic.  Yet in spite of that, or because of that, his campaign is finding wild success among the population at large.  He's tapping into an ugliness of human society that is always there--when not openly on display on the surface then hiding latent just below it--and making me doubt our ability to ever truly rise above it.  Civilization is hideously fragile, and once again we're starting to witness the removal of the varnish separating us from the horrors underneath.

And I just spent the last eleven hours still feeling that way, in a state of near-total despair at our civilization apparently crumbling around us.  Then I read this (WBW:  It's Going to Be Okay), and now I feel much better.

Thanks for the link. It helped.