Author Topic: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate  (Read 738066 times)

yuka

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2800 on: August 07, 2016, 07:15:35 PM »
There's no doubt in my mind that black would-be voters were denied their rights. And given the failure to enforce the 15th amendment, it was smart to enact the 24th to back it up. My point is that the social movements were direct catalysts for change, and not, as I think some people imagine, calls to action for Congress. The movements also had that effect, but it was the movements, not Congressional action, that led to the vast majority of the change.

Without federal government involvement, the schools/businesses would not have been integrated, black people wouldn't have been allowed to vote, districts would still have been drawn to prevent black representatives from being elected, etc. Maybe those changes would have happened without federal action many years later. But that's not at all certain. It was federal action including federal courts, federal law enforcement, and federal legislation that brought the changes. Yes, those federal actions were prompted by the social movements asking for changes. But you're dead wrong that the social movements were not also calling for Congress to act. They explicitly were, including the March on Washington. MLK was repeatedly asking for help from JFK and LBJ.

I shouldn't have guessed their plans, then.

As to all the institutions you mentioned, none of them are private. I see no issue in hammering those institutions to end discrimination: quite the contrary.

infogoon

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2801 on: August 08, 2016, 07:32:02 AM »
Birthers had a fringe theory with little facts. 

Not Trump!  Trump had very credible evidence from excellent sources that Obama is not an American.

I hope those investigators he sent to Hawaii have been sitting on the beach and drinking mai-tais on their expense accounts for the last three years.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2802 on: August 08, 2016, 07:43:50 AM »
Birthers had a fringe theory with little facts. 

Not Trump!  Trump had very credible evidence from excellent sources that Obama is not an American.

I hope those investigators he sent to Hawaii have been sitting on the beach and drinking mai-tais on their expense accounts for the last three years.

It was curious to me at the time that this got any traction, especially since there's already a verification process for elected officials.  I suppose it was a harbinger of the manufactured political conspiracies to come in this election.

I also find it ironic that Trump talks about wanting to 'open up the libel laws' to prevent the media from saying bad things about him, yet he's excelled at ridiculing his opponents and getting them to waste time defending themselves when the facts are already on their side.

dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2803 on: August 08, 2016, 07:52:42 AM »
Birthers had a fringe theory with little facts. 

Not Trump!  Trump had very credible evidence from excellent sources that Obama is not an American.

I hope those investigators he sent to Hawaii have been sitting on the beach and drinking mai-tais on their expense accounts for the last three years.

It was curious to me at the time that this got any traction, especially since there's already a verification process for elected officials.  I suppose it was a harbinger of the manufactured political conspiracies to come in this election.

I also find it ironic that Trump talks about wanting to 'open up the libel laws' to prevent the media from saying bad things about him, yet he's excelled at ridiculing his opponents and getting them to waste time defending themselves when the facts are already on their side.

Evidently some folks have studied Trump's conspiracy-smear methodology and turned it back on him.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/08/nambla-becomes-donald-trump-s-birther-moment.html

Did Trump donate money to NAMBLA? Some folks (actually bots) are wondering. I don't know, but it sure seems suspicious that he won't disprove it by releasing his tax returns.

nereo

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2804 on: August 08, 2016, 08:05:55 AM »
Evidently some folks have studied Trump's conspiracy-smear methodology and turned it back on him.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/08/nambla-becomes-donald-trump-s-birther-moment.html

Did Trump donate money to NAMBLA? Some folks (actually bots) are wondering. I don't know, but it sure seems suspicious that he won't disprove it by releasing his tax returns.

Ugh.  While funny, I wish they wouldn't.  This 'race to the bottom of common decency' ultimately hurts our faith and trust in our government even more.

dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2805 on: August 08, 2016, 08:14:19 AM »
Evidently some folks have studied Trump's conspiracy-smear methodology and turned it back on him.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/08/nambla-becomes-donald-trump-s-birther-moment.html

Did Trump donate money to NAMBLA? Some folks (actually bots) are wondering. I don't know, but it sure seems suspicious that he won't disprove it by releasing his tax returns.

Ugh.  While funny, I wish they wouldn't.  This 'race to the bottom of common decency' ultimately hurts our faith and trust in our government even more.

I'm not sure how independent programmers creating a bot to spread a viral hoax that everyone KNOWS is a hoax is hurting our faith and trust in government. If anything it highlights the stupidity of these viral conspiracy theories which DO hurt our faith and trust in government.

nereo

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2806 on: August 08, 2016, 08:29:05 AM »
Evidently some folks have studied Trump's conspiracy-smear methodology and turned it back on him.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/08/nambla-becomes-donald-trump-s-birther-moment.html

Did Trump donate money to NAMBLA? Some folks (actually bots) are wondering. I don't know, but it sure seems suspicious that he won't disprove it by releasing his tax returns.

Ugh.  While funny, I wish they wouldn't.  This 'race to the bottom of common decency' ultimately hurts our faith and trust in our government even more.

I'm not sure how independent programmers creating a bot to spread a viral hoax that everyone KNOWS is a hoax is hurting our faith and trust in government. If anything it highlights the stupidity of these viral conspiracy theories which DO hurt our faith and trust in government.

Well, based on the article you linked, an explicit hope of creating these bots is to drive up google search terms on an admittedly false issue to the point where people don't realize that it's completely bogus.
Quote
The goal... is to repeat the phrase so much that it starts saturating the media until people don’t know it was based on no real information whatsoever.

dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2807 on: August 08, 2016, 08:35:35 AM »
Evidently some folks have studied Trump's conspiracy-smear methodology and turned it back on him.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/08/nambla-becomes-donald-trump-s-birther-moment.html

Did Trump donate money to NAMBLA? Some folks (actually bots) are wondering. I don't know, but it sure seems suspicious that he won't disprove it by releasing his tax returns.

Ugh.  While funny, I wish they wouldn't.  This 'race to the bottom of common decency' ultimately hurts our faith and trust in our government even more.

I'm not sure how independent programmers creating a bot to spread a viral hoax that everyone KNOWS is a hoax is hurting our faith and trust in government. If anything it highlights the stupidity of these viral conspiracy theories which DO hurt our faith and trust in government.

Well, based on the article you linked, an explicit hope of creating these bots is to drive up google search terms on an admittedly false issue to the point where people don't realize that it's completely bogus.
Quote
The goal... is to repeat the phrase so much that it starts saturating the media until people don’t know it was based on no real information whatsoever.

If you concern is promoting a lack of trust in search engines and stupid media that merely repeat search engine output and stupid people who hear about it without questioning it, then I think that is valid.

I liken this to performance art that highlights a flaw in our system of information dissemination, a flaw that Trump has been exploiting to no end.

GuitarStv

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2808 on: August 08, 2016, 09:09:57 AM »
Evidently some folks have studied Trump's conspiracy-smear methodology and turned it back on him.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/08/nambla-becomes-donald-trump-s-birther-moment.html

Did Trump donate money to NAMBLA? Some folks (actually bots) are wondering. I don't know, but it sure seems suspicious that he won't disprove it by releasing his tax returns.

Ugh.  While funny, I wish they wouldn't.  This 'race to the bottom of common decency' ultimately hurts our faith and trust in our government even more.

I'm not sure how independent programmers creating a bot to spread a viral hoax that everyone KNOWS is a hoax is hurting our faith and trust in government. If anything it highlights the stupidity of these viral conspiracy theories which DO hurt our faith and trust in government.

Well, based on the article you linked, an explicit hope of creating these bots is to drive up google search terms on an admittedly false issue to the point where people don't realize that it's completely bogus.

Why would the actions of private individuals done for private purposes hurt our faith and trust in government?

nereo

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2809 on: August 08, 2016, 09:19:46 AM »

Why would the actions of private individuals done for private purposes hurt our faith and trust in government?
Because it's intended to get people to believe false things about our leaders and party nominees.  The birther movement, and the media it attracted, convinced some that our president isn't actually a naturally born American.  By extension, if you accept this false narrative his leadership is illegitimate.  This strategy is designed to get people to believe false things about Trump, which in turn reflects on the republican's choice of nominee.

dramaman

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2810 on: August 08, 2016, 09:28:16 AM »

Why would the actions of private individuals done for private purposes hurt our faith and trust in government?
Because it's intended to get people to believe false things about our leaders and party nominees.  The birther movement, and the media it attracted, convinced some that our president isn't actually a naturally born American.  By extension, if you accept this false narrative his leadership is illegitimate.  This strategy is designed to get people to believe false things about Trump, which in turn reflects on the republican's choice of nominee.

Once again, I would argue that the main purpose of this anti-Trump bot is NOT to get people to believe false things, but rather intended first and foremost to publicize how EASILY false information gets disseminated into the mainstream. It is publicizing a flaw in our system by exploiting it.

It is merely aimed at Trump because Trump himself is notorious for exploiting this flaw to spread his own anti-information conspiracy smears.

nereo

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2811 on: August 08, 2016, 09:47:13 AM »

Why would the actions of private individuals done for private purposes hurt our faith and trust in government?
Because it's intended to get people to believe false things about our leaders and party nominees.  The birther movement, and the media it attracted, convinced some that our president isn't actually a naturally born American.  By extension, if you accept this false narrative his leadership is illegitimate.  This strategy is designed to get people to believe false things about Trump, which in turn reflects on the republican's choice of nominee.

Once again, I would argue that the main purpose of this anti-Trump bot is NOT to get people to believe false things, but rather intended first and foremost to publicize how EASILY false information gets disseminated into the mainstream. It is publicizing a flaw in our system by exploiting it.

It is merely aimed at Trump because Trump himself is notorious for exploiting this flaw to spread his own anti-information conspiracy smears.

I support efforts to highlight how easily false information gets disseminated into the mainstream. I support all the fact-checking efforts which refute statements made by both Trump and Clinton, even when the fallacy keeps being repeated.

However, I don't believe the only goal of the program. As I mentinoed before, the creator of the bot said: The goal [of the bot] ...is to repeat the phrase so much that it starts saturating the media until people don’t know it was based on no real information whatsoever.
My interpretation of that is

forummm

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2812 on: August 09, 2016, 12:23:24 PM »
Birthers had a fringe theory with little facts. 

Not Trump!  Trump had very credible evidence from excellent sources that Obama is not an American.

I hope those investigators he sent to Hawaii have been sitting on the beach and drinking mai-tais on their expense accounts for the last three years.

I bet he never sent anyone to Hawaii. It's just the kind of lie he'd make up. Plus, those kinds of people would cost money, and he doesn't have nearly as much of that as he pretends.

nereo

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2813 on: August 12, 2016, 08:24:31 AM »
Four days filled with quite a bit to be critical of on the campaign trail... Trump's economic 'policy' speech, Clinton's economic 'policy' speech, Trump's "2nd Amendment people" quip, his "founder of ISIS" quip...

Have we just run out of things to be critical of?

infogoon

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2814 on: August 12, 2016, 08:53:45 AM »
Four days filled with quite a bit to be critical of on the campaign trail... Trump's economic 'policy' speech, Clinton's economic 'policy' speech, Trump's "2nd Amendment people" quip, his "founder of ISIS" quip...

Have we just run out of things to be critical of?

Remember when mocking a POW was the worst thing Trump had done and we didn't think he could sink any lower?

nereo

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2815 on: August 12, 2016, 09:06:50 AM »
Four days filled with quite a bit to be critical of on the campaign trail... Trump's economic 'policy' speech, Clinton's economic 'policy' speech, Trump's "2nd Amendment people" quip, his "founder of ISIS" quip...

Have we just run out of things to be critical of?

Remember when mocking a POW was the worst thing Trump had done and we didn't think he could sink any lower?

yeah... I keep thinking "surely this is the last and the worst insane thing he'll say".  I keep being proven wrong.

Also, I continue to be shocked at Trump's "populist appeal" when he keeps recommending things that seem so incredibly self serving.  The latest example was his call to completely eliminate the estate tax, which currently has an exemption of $5.45MM.  By some estimates this will only affect 0.3% of Americans, the overwhelming majority of whom are very, very wealthy.
Among those it will help...?  Trump's children! 

So we have a 70 year old man proposing some substantial changes to our tax code that will help him and his family a lot, and help his populist supporters not at all.

GuitarStv

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2816 on: August 12, 2016, 09:19:34 AM »
So we have a 70 year old man proposing some substantial changes to our tax code that will help him and his family a lot, and help his populist supporters not at all.

Isn't that almost the definition of republican legislation?  :P

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2817 on: August 12, 2016, 09:57:55 AM »
Four days filled with quite a bit to be critical of on the campaign trail... Trump's economic 'policy' speech, Clinton's economic 'policy' speech, Trump's "2nd Amendment people" quip, his "founder of ISIS" quip...

Have we just run out of things to be critical of?

Remember when mocking a POW was the worst thing Trump had done and we didn't think he could sink any lower?

yeah... I keep thinking "surely this is the last and the worst insane thing he'll say".  I keep being proven wrong.

Also, I continue to be shocked at Trump's "populist appeal" when he keeps recommending things that seem so incredibly self serving.  The latest example was his call to completely eliminate the estate tax, which currently has an exemption of $5.45MM.  By some estimates this will only affect 0.3% of Americans, the overwhelming majority of whom are very, very wealthy.
Among those it will help...?  Trump's children! 

So we have a 70 year old man proposing some substantial changes to our tax code that will help him and his family a lot, and help his populist supporters not at all.

I particularly love his sop to the working people with tax deductible child care expenses.....when the majority of the working and middle class don't itemize. On the other hand, people seem so stupid about their own taxes that I think some of them THINK they are getting a mortgage deduction or whatever, even though they are taking the standard deduction.

yuka

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2818 on: August 12, 2016, 10:09:35 AM »
his "founder of ISIS" quip...


To be fair, his point, that our interventions fostered the creation of ISIS, is quite valid. But I don't understand his compulsion to say things in the most controversial way possible.

Maybe we could call him the founder of homelessness and poverty for his abuse of eminent domain?

nereo

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2819 on: August 12, 2016, 10:10:53 AM »
Four days filled with quite a bit to be critical of on the campaign trail... Trump's economic 'policy' speech, Clinton's economic 'policy' speech, Trump's "2nd Amendment people" quip, his "founder of ISIS" quip...

Have we just run out of things to be critical of?

Remember when mocking a POW was the worst thing Trump had done and we didn't think he could sink any lower?

yeah... I keep thinking "surely this is the last and the worst insane thing he'll say".  I keep being proven wrong.

Also, I continue to be shocked at Trump's "populist appeal" when he keeps recommending things that seem so incredibly self serving.  The latest example was his call to completely eliminate the estate tax, which currently has an exemption of $5.45MM.  By some estimates this will only affect 0.3% of Americans, the overwhelming majority of whom are very, very wealthy.
Among those it will help...?  Trump's children! 

So we have a 70 year old man proposing some substantial changes to our tax code that will help him and his family a lot, and help his populist supporters not at all.

I particularly love his sop to the working people with tax deductible child care expenses.....when the majority of the working and middle class don't itemize. On the other hand, people seem so stupid about their own taxes that I think some of them THINK they are getting a mortgage deduction or whatever, even though they are taking the standard deduction.

Yeah, I'm a big supporter of completely purging the deductions and credits from our tax code, but I know there's no political will or support to actually accomplish this. There are too many sacred cows (like the mortgage interest deduction), even though most people don't benefit as much as they think they do, and most of the time it's baked into the market already.

I keenly read the transcript of Trump's economic policy speech and came away thoroughly disappointed on several fronts:
i) reducing the number of tax brackets won't make actually filing taxes any simpler, and makes our system less progressive
ii) the elimination of the estate tax only helps a very, very small and wealthy minority
iii) There was no mention at all of how we'd pay for all this red ink, save some vague promises that jobs and growth will come roaring  back.  I'm not sure how many more low/medium income jobs from Mexico/China our economy could realistically absorb.

no mention of how we'll deal with entitlement spending, and now we've got Trump saying we ought to borrow a lot more but he thinks "it'll be a lot less than $3T" in red ink when most economists are charting $9-12T.

nereo

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2820 on: August 12, 2016, 10:16:20 AM »
his "founder of ISIS" quip...


To be fair, his point, that our interventions fostered the creation of ISIS, is quite valid. But I don't understand his compulsion to say things in the most controversial way possible.

Yeah, and one of the interviewers (Hugh Hewitt) actually tried to steer him in that direction, saying:
I understand what you mean,  "that he (Obama) created the vacuum, he lost the peace."

But Trump insisted on saying "No, I meant he's the founder of ISIS. I do. He was the most valuable player. I give him the most valuable player award. I give her, too, by the way, Hillary Clinton.

Had he followed the path Hewitt layed out for him I think a lot of moderate people would have nodded along and though "well he has a coherent point here; the US created a power vacuum there and then ISIS stepped in".  But Trump wouldn't.  He has to take the most inflammatory path.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2821 on: August 12, 2016, 10:17:55 AM »
his "founder of ISIS" quip...


To be fair, his point, that our interventions fostered the creation of ISIS, is quite valid. But I don't understand his compulsion to say things in the most controversial way possible.

Yeah, and one of the interviewers (Hugh Hewitt) actually tried to steer him in that direction, saying:
I understand what you mean,  "that he (Obama) created the vacuum, he lost the peace."

But Trump insisted on saying "No, I meant he's the founder of ISIS. I do. He was the most valuable player. I give him the most valuable player award. I give her, too, by the way, Hillary Clinton.

Had he followed the path Hewitt layed out for him I think a lot of moderate people would have nodded along and though "well he has a coherent point here; the US created a power vacuum there and then ISIS stepped in".  But Trump wouldn't.  He has to take the most inflammatory path.

I thought the ISIS thing was a bit of the tempest in a teapot.  The 2nd amendment comment was a WTF.

nereo

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2822 on: August 12, 2016, 10:34:54 AM »

I thought the ISIS thing was a bit of the tempest in a teapot.  The 2nd amendment comment was a WTF.

Really...?  I'm not sure which one was worse.

When declaring Obama to be the "founder of ISIS" he has been unequivocal about it.  No ISIS did not spring up because of a power vacuum, he was the founder.

The 2nd amendment quip is equally troubling... only people who support the right to bare arms can do anything about a future president Clinton's judicial appointments. Here at least the Trump campaign said he was talking about voting, not violence.

While we're on this tangent, one line from the RNC said in support of Trump keeps troubling me.  It was when Melania said that "when you attack him he will punch back 10 times harder."
WTF??  how is that the kind of justice we want in our world?  If I hurt him a little he'll hurt me a lot?  This is comic-book-style mafia justice.

Midwest

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2823 on: August 12, 2016, 10:53:33 AM »

I thought the ISIS thing was a bit of the tempest in a teapot.  The 2nd amendment comment was a WTF.

Really...?  I'm not sure which one was worse.

When declaring Obama to be the "founder of ISIS" he has been unequivocal about it.  No ISIS did not spring up because of a power vacuum, he was the founder.

The 2nd amendment quip is equally troubling... only people who support the right to bare arms can do anything about a future president Clinton's judicial appointments. Here at least the Trump campaign said he was talking about voting, not violence.

While we're on this tangent, one line from the RNC said in support of Trump keeps troubling me.  It was when Melania said that "when you attack him he will punch back 10 times harder."
WTF??  how is that the kind of justice we want in our world?  If I hurt him a little he'll hurt me a lot?  This is comic-book-style mafia justice.

Nereo - The WTF was in reference to Trump's 2nd amendment comment, not the criticisms of it.  It was a stupid comment by him.  He may have been talking about voting, but it could easily be interpreted in another context. 

With regard to the ISIS comment, I inferred he meant the power vacuum as would most reasonable people whether they agree or not.  I'm not aware of a comment where he claimed Obama and Clinton in a real sense (not hyperbole) created ISIS.

There have been some many stupid things said in last 2 weeks it's hard to keep up.  Clinton's continuing narrative about Comey supporting her truthfulfullness has been lost in Trump's stupidity.

yuka

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2824 on: August 12, 2016, 10:59:21 AM »

When declaring Obama to be the "founder of ISIS" he has been unequivocal about it.  No ISIS did not spring up because of a power vacuum, he was the founder.


With the implications of that, it's almost a compliment. Here I'm working only a single job, while our president, the leader of one of the world's largest bureaucracies, is also maneuvering adeptly in raising an upstart militant group with management style and world-view almost exactly opposite those of his day job? Someone get that miracle worker a promotion.

nereo

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2825 on: August 12, 2016, 11:15:30 AM »

I thought the ISIS thing was a bit of the tempest in a teapot.  The 2nd amendment comment was a WTF.

Really...?  I'm not sure which one was worse.

When declaring Obama to be the "founder of ISIS" he has been unequivocal about it.  No ISIS did not spring up because of a power vacuum, he was the founder.

The 2nd amendment quip is equally troubling... only people who support the right to bare arms can do anything about a future president Clinton's judicial appointments. Here at least the Trump campaign said he was talking about voting, not violence.

While we're on this tangent, one line from the RNC said in support of Trump keeps troubling me.  It was when Melania said that "when you attack him he will punch back 10 times harder."
WTF??  how is that the kind of justice we want in our world?  If I hurt him a little he'll hurt me a lot?  This is comic-book-style mafia justice.

Nereo - The WTF was in reference to Trump's 2nd amendment comment, not the criticisms of it.  It was a stupid comment by him.  He may have been talking about voting, but it could easily be interpreted in another context. 

With regard to the ISIS comment, I inferred he meant the power vacuum as would most reasonable people whether they agree or not.  I'm not aware of a comment where he claimed Obama and Clinton in a real sense (not hyperbole) created ISIS.

FWIW, here's an article where Trump expounds upon his phrasing of "the founder of ISIS".  Even a day later he insists he meant it literally, and that it wasn't just the result of a power vacuum.
There have been some many stupid things said in last 2 weeks it's hard to keep up.  Clinton's continuing narrative about Comey supporting her truthfulfullness has been lost in Trump's stupidity.

Understood.  Personally I think they're both such extreme comments with mortal implications that it's hard for me to choose which one is the 'worse' of the two.

Yuka:  lol, like "founder of ISIS" could be placed on a resumé:  2012: founded an international movement with thousands of intensely supportive members and $millions in funding which persists today. 2015-2016: spent $B fighting inernational movement I created a few years earlier.  A learning experience.
(sarcasm)

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2826 on: August 12, 2016, 12:17:11 PM »
Maybe it was meant in the same way Al Gore created the internet.  Al Gore did say he created the internet, but he didn't really mean he invented it or came up with the concept.  In the same way, I could see someone thinking Obama's actions or in-actions helped set the foundations that were needed for ISIS to form.   Trump is still a moron though.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2827 on: August 12, 2016, 12:46:21 PM »
Maybe it was meant in the same way Al Gore created the internet.  Al Gore did say he created the internet, but he didn't really mean he invented it or came up with the concept.  In the same way, I could see someone thinking Obama's actions or in-actions helped set the foundations that were needed for ISIS to form.   Trump is still a moron though.

Trump specifically objected to your interpretation and said it was not what he meant.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/11/politics/donald-trump-hugh-hewitt-obama-founder-isis/

Midwest

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2828 on: August 12, 2016, 12:54:21 PM »
Maybe it was meant in the same way Al Gore created the internet.  Al Gore did say he created the internet, but he didn't really mean he invented it or came up with the concept.  In the same way, I could see someone thinking Obama's actions or in-actions helped set the foundations that were needed for ISIS to form.   Trump is still a moron though.

Trump specifically objected to your interpretation and said it was not what he meant.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/11/politics/donald-trump-hugh-hewitt-obama-founder-isis/

Trump refers to the Iraq withdrawal in the link you gave.  Isn't that exactly what the above poster referred to?  From your link.

"No, I meant he's the founder of ISIS," Trump said. "I do. He was the most valuable player. I give him the most valuable player award. I give her, too, by the way, Hillary Clinton."
 
Hewitt pushed back again, saying that Obama is "not sympathetic" to ISIS and "hates" and is "trying to kill them."

"I don't care," Trump said, according to a show transcript. "He was the founder. His, the way he got out of Iraq was that that was the founding of ISIS, okay?"

GuitarStv

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2829 on: August 12, 2016, 12:56:12 PM »
Maybe it was meant in the same way Al Gore created the internet.  Al Gore did say he created the internet, but he didn't really mean he invented it or came up with the concept.  In the same way, I could see someone thinking Obama's actions or in-actions helped set the foundations that were needed for ISIS to form.   Trump is still a moron though.

Trump specifically objected to your interpretation and said it was not what he meant.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/11/politics/donald-trump-hugh-hewitt-obama-founder-isis/

Trump refers to the Iraq withdrawal in the link you gave.  Isn't that exactly what the above poster referred to?  From your link.

"No, I meant he's the founder of ISIS," Trump said. "I do. He was the most valuable player. I give him the most valuable player award. I give her, too, by the way, Hillary Clinton."
 
Hewitt pushed back again, saying that Obama is "not sympathetic" to ISIS and "hates" and is "trying to kill them."

"I don't care," Trump said, according to a show transcript. "He was the founder. His, the way he got out of Iraq was that that was the founding of ISIS, okay?"

He also explicitly denied that this is what he meant:

Quote
Trump was asked by host Hugh Hewitt about the comments Trump made Wednesday night in Florida, and Hewitt said he understood Trump to mean "that he (Obama) created the vacuum, he lost the peace."

Trump objected.  "No, I meant he's the founder of ISIS,"


Which moment of Trump is telling the truth from minute to minute?  Fuck if I know.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 01:03:29 PM by GuitarStv »

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2830 on: August 12, 2016, 12:56:22 PM »
Trump specifically objected to your interpretation and said it was not what he meant.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/11/politics/donald-trump-hugh-hewitt-obama-founder-isis/

Well,  what can I say...he is a moron.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2831 on: August 12, 2016, 01:03:53 PM »
Four days filled with quite a bit to be critical of on the campaign trail... Trump's economic 'policy' speech, Clinton's economic 'policy' speech, Trump's "2nd Amendment people" quip, his "founder of ISIS" quip...

Have we just run out of things to be critical of?

Remember when mocking a POW was the worst thing Trump had done and we didn't think he could sink any lower?

yeah... I keep thinking "surely this is the last and the worst insane thing he'll say".  I keep being proven wrong.

Also, I continue to be shocked at Trump's "populist appeal" when he keeps recommending things that seem so incredibly self serving.  The latest example was his call to completely eliminate the estate tax, which currently has an exemption of $5.45MM.  By some estimates this will only affect 0.3% of Americans, the overwhelming majority of whom are very, very wealthy.
Among those it will help...?  Trump's children! 

So we have a 70 year old man proposing some substantial changes to our tax code that will help him and his family a lot, and help his populist supporters not at all.

I particularly love his sop to the working people with tax deductible child care expenses.....when the majority of the working and middle class don't itemize. On the other hand, people seem so stupid about their own taxes that I think some of them THINK they are getting a mortgage deduction or whatever, even though they are taking the standard deduction.

Dependent care is already deductible in addition to the standard deduction, either through flexible-spending accounts or an end-of-year line item.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2832 on: August 12, 2016, 01:21:19 PM »
Four days filled with quite a bit to be critical of on the campaign trail... Trump's economic 'policy' speech, Clinton's economic 'policy' speech, Trump's "2nd Amendment people" quip, his "founder of ISIS" quip...

Have we just run out of things to be critical of?

Remember when mocking a POW was the worst thing Trump had done and we didn't think he could sink any lower?

yeah... I keep thinking "surely this is the last and the worst insane thing he'll say".  I keep being proven wrong.

Also, I continue to be shocked at Trump's "populist appeal" when he keeps recommending things that seem so incredibly self serving.  The latest example was his call to completely eliminate the estate tax, which currently has an exemption of $5.45MM.  By some estimates this will only affect 0.3% of Americans, the overwhelming majority of whom are very, very wealthy.
Among those it will help...?  Trump's children! 

So we have a 70 year old man proposing some substantial changes to our tax code that will help him and his family a lot, and help his populist supporters not at all.

I particularly love his sop to the working people with tax deductible child care expenses.....when the majority of the working and middle class don't itemize. On the other hand, people seem so stupid about their own taxes that I think some of them THINK they are getting a mortgage deduction or whatever, even though they are taking the standard deduction.

Dependent care is already deductible in addition to the standard deduction, either through flexible-spending accounts or an end-of-year line item.

Huh. So Trump is offering something that already exists?

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2833 on: August 12, 2016, 02:05:45 PM »
Huh. So Trump is offering something that already exists?

Neither candidate gets specific.  From
Donald Trump's and Hillary Clinton's child care deductions: How would they work? - Mercury News:
Quote
"My plan will also reduce the cost of child care by allowing parents to fully deduct the average cost of child care spending from their taxes," Trump said.
That single sentence was all Trump had to say, other than to promise more details in the coming weeks as he works on his proposal with his daughter.
...
But like Trump, Clinton has offered few details on how she would pay for her plan.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2834 on: August 12, 2016, 05:20:46 PM »
his "founder of ISIS" quip...


To be fair, his point, that our interventions fostered the creation of ISIS, is quite valid. But I don't understand his compulsion to say things in the most controversial way possible.

Yeah, and one of the interviewers (Hugh Hewitt) actually tried to steer him in that direction, saying:
I understand what you mean,  "that he (Obama) created the vacuum, he lost the peace."

But Trump insisted on saying "No, I meant he's the founder of ISIS. I do. He was the most valuable player. I give him the most valuable player award. I give her, too, by the way, Hillary Clinton.

Had he followed the path Hewitt layed out for him I think a lot of moderate people would have nodded along and though "well he has a coherent point here; the US created a power vacuum there and then ISIS stepped in".  But Trump wouldn't.  He has to take the most inflammatory path.

Yeah. When he says "Barack Hussein Obama" it's not that subtle what he's doing.

And the person in the US most responsible for creating the situation that lead to ISIS was Bush.

forummm

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2835 on: August 12, 2016, 05:23:21 PM »
Four days filled with quite a bit to be critical of on the campaign trail... Trump's economic 'policy' speech, Clinton's economic 'policy' speech, Trump's "2nd Amendment people" quip, his "founder of ISIS" quip...

Have we just run out of things to be critical of?

Remember when mocking a POW was the worst thing Trump had done and we didn't think he could sink any lower?

yeah... I keep thinking "surely this is the last and the worst insane thing he'll say".  I keep being proven wrong.

Also, I continue to be shocked at Trump's "populist appeal" when he keeps recommending things that seem so incredibly self serving.  The latest example was his call to completely eliminate the estate tax, which currently has an exemption of $5.45MM.  By some estimates this will only affect 0.3% of Americans, the overwhelming majority of whom are very, very wealthy.
Among those it will help...?  Trump's children! 

So we have a 70 year old man proposing some substantial changes to our tax code that will help him and his family a lot, and help his populist supporters not at all.

I particularly love his sop to the working people with tax deductible child care expenses.....when the majority of the working and middle class don't itemize. On the other hand, people seem so stupid about their own taxes that I think some of them THINK they are getting a mortgage deduction or whatever, even though they are taking the standard deduction.

Dependent care is already deductible in addition to the standard deduction, either through flexible-spending accounts or an end-of-year line item.

Huh. So Trump is offering something that already exists?

I don't think you can deduct the entire amount of daycare. I think it's limited to $5k through flex-spend account (if your employer offers it) and a max of $6k (if you have 2 kids and a lower income) through the dependent care deduction. And you can only take one of these--not add them together.

If I'm wrong, I'd love to hear otherwise.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2836 on: August 12, 2016, 05:29:23 PM »
And the person in the US most responsible for creating the situation that lead to ISIS was Bush.

Not really.  The person in the US most responsible for creating the situation that lead to ISIS was Harry S. Truman.

forummm

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2837 on: August 12, 2016, 05:40:15 PM »
And the person in the US most responsible for creating the situation that lead to ISIS was Bush.

Not really.  The person in the US most responsible for creating the situation that lead to ISIS was Harry S. Truman.

I wouldn't say "most".

But you could argue that Eve was responsible for birthing the rest of humanity.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2838 on: August 12, 2016, 05:45:04 PM »
Seriously?  Truman was trying to get the Jewish vote and against the advice of many government officials and agencies promoted the founding of Israel.  This action has created all of the mess since, including 9/11 and ISIS.

I mean if we are going to go back to the Bush administration, might as well go back a bit more to the real source.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2839 on: August 12, 2016, 06:32:50 PM »
Four days filled with quite a bit to be critical of on the campaign trail... Trump's economic 'policy' speech, Clinton's economic 'policy' speech, Trump's "2nd Amendment people" quip, his "founder of ISIS" quip...

Have we just run out of things to be critical of?

Remember when mocking a POW was the worst thing Trump had done and we didn't think he could sink any lower?

yeah... I keep thinking "surely this is the last and the worst insane thing he'll say".  I keep being proven wrong.

Also, I continue to be shocked at Trump's "populist appeal" when he keeps recommending things that seem so incredibly self serving.  The latest example was his call to completely eliminate the estate tax, which currently has an exemption of $5.45MM.  By some estimates this will only affect 0.3% of Americans, the overwhelming majority of whom are very, very wealthy.
Among those it will help...?  Trump's children! 

So we have a 70 year old man proposing some substantial changes to our tax code that will help him and his family a lot, and help his populist supporters not at all.

I particularly love his sop to the working people with tax deductible child care expenses.....when the majority of the working and middle class don't itemize. On the other hand, people seem so stupid about their own taxes that I think some of them THINK they are getting a mortgage deduction or whatever, even though they are taking the standard deduction.

Dependent care is already deductible in addition to the standard deduction, either through flexible-spending accounts or an end-of-year line item.

Huh. So Trump is offering something that already exists?

I don't think you can deduct the entire amount of daycare. I think it's limited to $5k through flex-spend account (if your employer offers it) and a max of $6k (if you have 2 kids and a lower income) through the dependent care deduction. And you can only take one of these--not add them together.

If I'm wrong, I'd love to hear otherwise.
Just a footnote on Trump's plan: he said he wanted to make the"average" cost of child-care deductible.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2840 on: August 12, 2016, 06:57:37 PM »

Just a footnote on Trump's plan: he said he wanted to make the"average" cost of child-care deductible.

A fair point.
Counterpoint: Most low and lower-middle income families dont' earn enough to make deducting child-care any better than getting the automatic standard deduction.  Ergo, on average it can only help those much higher up ont he income scale.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2841 on: August 12, 2016, 07:46:06 PM »
Just a footnote on Trump's plan: he said he wanted to make the"average" cost of child-care deductible.

A fair point.
Counterpoint: Most low and lower-middle income families dont' earn enough to make deducting child-care any better than getting the automatic standard deduction.  Ergo, on average it can only help those much higher up ont he income scale.

Who says it couldn't be an above-the-line deduction, or an [expanded] line 49 credit?

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2842 on: August 13, 2016, 08:13:09 AM »
Just a footnote on Trump's plan: he said he wanted to make the"average" cost of child-care deductible.

A fair point.
Counterpoint: Most low and lower-middle income families dont' earn enough to make deducting child-care any better than getting the automatic standard deduction.  Ergo, on average it can only help those much higher up ont he income scale.

Who says it couldn't be an above-the-line deduction, or an [expanded] line 49 credit?

It certainly could be, but if that was Trump's intention, why wouldn't he say so?  Even if it were changed to be an above-the-line deduction we'd still wind up in a situatin where the lowest income families (who already don't pay the federal income tax due to deductions) would receive no further benefit.  A family (two parents) would still have to pay >$12,600 in federal income taxes to receive any additional benefit from a new tax deduction.
As is, with rare exceptions when tax deductions are mentioned in the US they are almost always itemized deductions.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2843 on: August 15, 2016, 09:06:42 AM »
Just a footnote on Trump's plan: he said he wanted to make the"average" cost of child-care deductible.

A fair point.
Counterpoint: Most low and lower-middle income families dont' earn enough to make deducting child-care any better than getting the automatic standard deduction.  Ergo, on average it can only help those much higher up ont he income scale.

Who says it couldn't be an above-the-line deduction, or an [expanded] line 49 credit?

It certainly could be, but if that was Trump's intention, why wouldn't he say so?  Even if it were changed to be an above-the-line deduction we'd still wind up in a situatin where the lowest income families (who already don't pay the federal income tax due to deductions) would receive no further benefit.  A family (two parents) would still have to pay >$12,600 in federal income taxes to receive any additional benefit from a new tax deduction.
As is, with rare exceptions when tax deductions are mentioned in the US they are almost always itemized deductions.

The best way for this to benefit the low income families would be to have something where it is either a non/refundable credit based upon the income level.  You could even have a phase-out of the refundable part on a similar scale to the EITC. 

I could go for Hillary's idea of lowering the cost of childcare.  It would all depend on the details of how it would work.  I feel like it could make a lot of in-home daycares to close. 

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2844 on: August 15, 2016, 09:52:11 AM »

Just a footnote on Trump's plan: he said he wanted to make the"average" cost of child-care deductible.

A fair point.
Counterpoint: Most low and lower-middle income families dont' earn enough to make deducting child-care any better than getting the automatic standard deduction.  Ergo, on average it can only help those much higher up ont he income scale.

No, it's already an above-the-line deduction with a cap ($5k FSA or $6k out of pocket). It doesn't require itemizing to receive the benefit.

If he's talking about removing the cap, then great, but that's a pretty minor change.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2845 on: August 15, 2016, 10:01:36 AM »

Just a footnote on Trump's plan: he said he wanted to make the"average" cost of child-care deductible.

A fair point.
Counterpoint: Most low and lower-middle income families dont' earn enough to make deducting child-care any better than getting the automatic standard deduction.  Ergo, on average it can only help those much higher up ont he income scale.

No, it's already an above-the-line deduction with a cap ($5k FSA or $6k out of pocket). It doesn't require itemizing to receive the benefit.

If he's talking about removing the cap, then great, but that's a pretty minor change.

From Trump's 'economic policy' speech in Detriot:
Quote from: Trump
"My plan will also help reduce the cost of child care by allowing parents to fully deduct the average cost of childcare spending from their taxes,"

What he's proposing appears to be exactly that, an increase in the cap.  Which basically confirms that it will do nothing for lower income families, and instead may benefit high-earning (and hence high-taxpaying) households that spend >>$6k/year on childcare.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2846 on: August 15, 2016, 10:06:24 AM »
From Trump's 'economic policy' speech in Detriot:
Quote from: Trump
"My plan will also help reduce the cost of child care by allowing parents to fully deduct the average cost of childcare spending from their taxes,"

What he's proposing appears to be exactly that, an increase in the cap.  Which basically confirms that it will do nothing for lower income families, and instead may benefit high-earning (and hence high-taxpaying) households that spend >>$6k/year on childcare.

As much as it pains me to side with Trump here, it would still help low income families.

Cheap childcare at a day care facility is still well over $10k full year/full time for infants. It goes down as the child gets older, but even part-time preschool is still over 5k for the year.

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2847 on: August 15, 2016, 10:08:16 AM »
From Trump's 'economic policy' speech in Detriot:
Quote from: Trump
"My plan will also help reduce the cost of child care by allowing parents to fully deduct the average cost of childcare spending from their taxes,"

What he's proposing appears to be exactly that, an increase in the cap.  Which basically confirms that it will do nothing for lower income families, and instead may benefit high-earning (and hence high-taxpaying) households that spend >>$6k/year on childcare.

As much as it pains me to side with Trump here, it would still help low income families.

Cheap childcare at a day care facility is still well over $10k full year/full time for infants. It goes down as the child gets older, but even part-time preschool is still over 5k for the year.

How would this help low income folks - they don't pay taxes so would have not benefit.  Meanwhile, the upper crust could deduct their au pair - that doesn't seem fair, nor would it help the folks that need it.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2848 on: August 15, 2016, 10:22:27 AM »
From Trump's 'economic policy' speech in Detriot:
Quote from: Trump
"My plan will also help reduce the cost of child care by allowing parents to fully deduct the average cost of childcare spending from their taxes,"

What he's proposing appears to be exactly that, an increase in the cap.  Which basically confirms that it will do nothing for lower income families, and instead may benefit high-earning (and hence high-taxpaying) households that spend >>$6k/year on childcare.

As much as it pains me to side with Trump here, it would still help low income families.

Cheap childcare at a day care facility is still well over $10k full year/full time for infants. It goes down as the child gets older, but even part-time preschool is still over 5k for the year.

How would this help low income folks - they don't pay taxes so would have not benefit.  Meanwhile, the upper crust could deduct their au pair - that doesn't seem fair, nor would it help the folks that need it.

I guess it depends on how you define low income. I know deducting the full amount from my taxes would make a difference in my life.

Make it refundable?

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Re: Legitimate criticisms of each 2016 Presidential Candidate
« Reply #2849 on: August 15, 2016, 10:35:38 AM »

As much as it pains me to side with Trump here, it would still help low income families.

Cheap childcare at a day care facility is still well over $10k full year/full time for infants. It goes down as the child gets older, but even part-time preschool is still over 5k for the year.


The point I'm trying to make here is that this is an income deduction.  It cannot help families who already pay not federal income taxes (typically because they have a combination of low income and large deductions).  By some estimates ~45% of households owe no federal income tax.  It doesn't matter if child-care cost is $10k/year... increasing the deduction still cannot help those families.
The households where this could be benefitial are those that are still paying large amounts in federal income taxes after all the other deductions are taken into account (like the $12,600 standard deduction + child care costs currently at $6k). 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!