Latchkey Kids of the 1980's

[Karen]

I have a blog (www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com) and in my most recent post, talk about why a young couple might want to consider team trucking so that they can retire (like MMM) and then start a family.

It got me to thinking about my own upbringing with some bitterness.  I was an only child and both of my parents worked.  I was shoved into daycare from the age of about 2.  I was given a key to the house from about 7 and each day I would walk home from school, let myself into the house and wait a couple of hours for my father to get home from work and an additional 3 hours for my mother.  This was the 80's by the way, when I don't think a young child home alone necessarily equated to child endangerment or abuse. I was a stubborn kid and it seemed that my parents took the view that "Karen knows her own mind and what she wants".

Apart from my all-consuming fear of burglars, nothing bad actually physically happened to me in all those years....or so I thought.

One day in my 20's a memory came rushing back to me.  I don't remember how or why it did.  I was about 8 or so walking home from school with my best friend "Dee".  School was only about a 10-minute walk away.  We were going to my house to play.  At the time, I lived in a townhouse complex off a side street.  We were about to cross the street to go into the complex when a car pulled up alongside and a lady said to us "I'm a friend of your mother's.  She asked me to pick you up to drive you home." 

I was about to politely point out to this lady that, thank you very much, but this was not necessary as we were practically home - see, we lived right there - when Dee fiercely grabbed my arm and started running toward the main, busier street.  She then proceeded to yell at me for the next minute or so.  I didn't understand - what was the big deal?

Now that I remember this, I know I have Dee to thank for saving my life.  Sometimes I try making myself wonder what could have happened if she had not been there with me on that day and how differently my life (assuming I still had one) would have turned out.  I never told either of my parents about this.  At the time,in my naive mind, it was just a big deal made out of nothing. 

I wasn't a stupid kid, nor did I have uncaring parents or a failing school system.  And yet, along with (and perhaps exceeding) all of the warnings, I was taught to be respectful and polite to adults.  To my 8-year old mind, this lady in the car was an adult and don't all adults know better?

I know it's fruitless and a total waste of time, but I find myself thinking about people like MMM and his family with some envy.  I wish all kids could have parents who didn't HAVE to work and could be there to help their children become the self-sufficient individuals they need to be in order to thrive in life.

OK, nightmare down memory lane finished!

[tooqk4u22]

I know it's fruitless and a total waste of time, but I find myself thinking about people like MMM and his family with some envy.  I wish all kids could have parents who didn't HAVE to work and could be there to help their children become the self-sufficient individuals they need to be in order to thrive in life.

......At the time,in my naive mind, it was just a big deal made out of nothing. 

I wasn't a stupid kid, nor did I have uncaring parents or a failing school system.  And yet, along with (and perhaps exceeding) all of the warnings, I was taught to be respectful and polite to adults.  To my 8-year old mind, this lady in the car was an adult and don't all adults know better?

The envy part might be fruitless but the story is not - there are far too many like it and some that don't end well. 

Anyone with children should take this as a reminder to constantly reinforce with your children not to talk to strangers....and never go with anyone no matter what they say.

Kids are naive, this message has to be reinforced regularly with your children.  Personally, when people say hello or something to my kids and they don't respond, I am ok with that. I will never tell my kids to say hi to a stranger just because they said hi to them, even if it was in front of me, it just confuses them.

[deborah]

Yes, it wasn't fun being a latch key child. The worst occasion for me was the night (middle of winter, teaming rain) when my younger brother ran full speed into a stationary truck on his bicycle. He went (was taken?) into the shop next to the accident, bleeding profusely from the cuts on his head. I answered the phone from the frantic shop keeper. Mum and Dad wouldn't be home for hours, and none of the neighbours were home when I checked. Fortunately, a second tour of the neighbourhood found an adult who took my brother to hospital to get however many stitches, and then brought him home.

[okits]

Thank goodness your friend was street-proofed (does that term even exist anymore?)

I think nowadays parents hover watchfully over their kids until at least their mid-20s.  That's not really good, either.

I'll try to balance things out by saying that there were times in my childhood where I just wanted to be with my mommy, but as an adult I understand that two incomes were our immediate family's ticket out of precarious finances (and for our extended family, the support provided helped keep them from sliding into poverty.) My parents have a very secure retirement due to their dual careers, which means I'll never worry about having to finance their golden years as well as my own.  A working mother set a great example for me, seeing that marriage did not automatically mean economic dependency for a woman, and that I could be more than a wife and mother (seemed like lots of stay-at-home wives/mothers in my community while I was growing up.) My parents also sponsored a relative to come to Canada as our caregiver (paid market wages), so it was an economic opportunity for my aunt, too. 

That said, I get where you are coming from.  Having the ability to have more parental presence is ideal.  But my personal experience being a latchkey kid was not all that bad.

[Cressida]

OP, that is a scary story and I'm very glad it turned out OK.

I do have a few comments.

(1) I think most people would agree that 7 is a bit young to be staying home by yourself and I can see how that would make a kid experience feelings of unwantedness or abandonment, whatever the parents' reasoning might have been.

(2) My impression is that child kidnapping is extremely rare. I'm *not* dismissing OP's story or her feelings about it, and children should certainly be educated about suspicious adults - but seems that we should keep in mind the effects of making children terrified about something that is unlikely.

(3) I don't agree with the notion that there needs to be a parent at home in order for their children to "become the self-sufficient individuals they need to be in order to thrive in life." That's a very general description and can't apply to all families.

(4) I was a latchkey kid in the '80s. My very favorite time of the day was the time between my arrival home from school and my mother's arrival home from work. Pure freedom. Admittedly, my mother was not a good parent. But I can hardly believe that bad parenting was unique to my mother.

My point is, things are rarely absolute. Early retirement is great: but not everyone would necessarily use it for the good of their children, and not everyone who can't do it is causing harm to their children.

[Kitsune]

I was a semi-latchkey kid in the 90s, and I honestly loved it. Some days, my dad worked from home, so he was there when the bus dropped me off. Other days, they'd get home around 6, and I was home around 4 (I would've been... maybe 10, at the time).

I had strict instructions to come straight into the house, re-lock the doors behind me, make apple crumble and put it in the oven for dessert, and then do whatever I wanted. Result: apple crumble takes 10 minutes (and I can still pretty much make it in my sleep), and I had at least an hour and a half of time to read with no one disturbing me. BLISS.

I think it depends on the kid and their personality (and level of maturity, obviously), and that you need to take precautions and ensure a certain level of street-smarts (as the OPs story shows).

Personally, I'm really glad my mom worked - seeing her and learning from her taught me a LOT.

My daughter is in daycare (she started at 14 months) and LOVES it (like, drags her bag to the door and holds up her arms to go, usually a half-hour before it's time to go... but she was always a super-social baby who loved being around lots of other kids, so, it's entirely in character.) I wouldn't be quite ok with her walking home by herself at 7, but I'd expect a 10-year-old to at least be able to bike home alone and take care of basic chores.

I think that, as parents, we have a responsibility to ensure that our kids are taken care of (aka: a 5-year-old can be dropped off at grammy's instead of at home if parents are working), but we also have a responsibility to ensure that our kids are age-appropriately self-sufficient. It's a balancing act.

[GuitarStv]

Thank goodness your friend was street-proofed (does that term even exist anymore?)

No.  It's become unnecessary as children are accompanied by an adult at all times until their mid-20s these days.

[Gin1984]

I was a semi-latchkey kid in the 90s, and I honestly loved it. Some days, my dad worked from home, so he was there when the bus dropped me off. Other days, they'd get home around 6, and I was home around 4 (I would've been... maybe 10, at the time).

I had strict instructions to come straight into the house, re-lock the doors behind me, make apple crumble and put it in the oven for dessert, and then do whatever I wanted. Result: apple crumble takes 10 minutes (and I can still pretty much make it in my sleep), and I had at least an hour and a half of time to read with no one disturbing me. BLISS.

I think it depends on the kid and their personality (and level of maturity, obviously), and that you need to take precautions and ensure a certain level of street-smarts (as the OPs story shows).

Personally, I'm really glad my mom worked - seeing her and learning from her taught me a LOT.

My daughter is in daycare (she started at 14 months) and LOVES it (like, drags her bag to the door and holds up her arms to go, usually a half-hour before it's time to go... but she was always a super-social baby who loved being around lots of other kids, so, it's entirely in character.) I wouldn't be quite ok with her walking home by herself at 7, but I'd expect a 10-year-old to at least be able to bike home alone and take care of basic chores.

I think that, as parents, we have a responsibility to ensure that our kids are taken care of (aka: a 5-year-old can be dropped off at grammy's instead of at home if parents are working), but we also have a responsibility to ensure that our kids are age-appropriately self-sufficient. It's a balancing act.

I walked home at nine with a older guy friend (13-14), who then proceeded home where his mother was waiting.   My house was very close to the school and we were watched out for.  How do it know?  Well he was not allowed in the house but one day was thirsty and came in for less than five minutes for drink.  Both parents were called and he met his mother on the way home, lol.  I walked by myself at ten when he went to high school.  Never had a problem and I loved my time home alone.  However, I had no problem ignoring adults, lol.

[KisKis]

Thank goodness your friend was street-proofed (does that term even exist anymore?)

No.  It's become unnecessary as children are accompanied by an adult at all times until their mid-20s these days.

Funny and sad, but true.  I really have no idea how old my children need to be before I can let them stay home alone while I run to the store.  Is there some sort of society-agreed upon number these days?  I was also a latchkey kid from the 80s.  Dad worked Monday-Saturday at the office, and worked at home in seclusion on Sundays.  Mom worked full time, and shuttled me around to activities after she got home around 5:30, so I had a few hours by myself starting at the age of 6 or 7 after school.  I do remember that I forgot my key once or twice.  One time, I fell asleep under a tree about 10 yards away from the house while it was snowing out, and woke up to a policeman's flashlight shining in my face.  Parents and grandparents were all at the house in full panic.  The snow had lightly covered me up, though I remember making special efforts to hang a scarf on one of the branches as an arrow pointing to where I was resting.  Dumb adults just didn't understand. 

[Gin1984]

Thank goodness your friend was street-proofed (does that term even exist anymore?)

No.  It's become unnecessary as children are accompanied by an adult at all times until their mid-20s these days.

Funny and sad, but true.  I really have no idea how old my children need to be before I can let them stay home alone while I run to the store.  Is there some sort of society-agreed upon number these days?  I was also a latchkey kid from the 80s.  Dad worked Monday-Saturday at the office, and worked at home in seclusion on Sundays.  Mom worked full time, and shuttled me around to activities after she got home around 5:30, so I had a few hours by myself starting at the age of 6 or 7 after school.  I do remember that I forgot my key once or twice.  One time, I fell asleep under a tree about 10 yards away from the house while it was snowing out, and woke up to a policeman's flashlight shining in my face.  Parents and grandparents were all at the house in full panic.  The snow had lightly covered me up, though I remember making special efforts to hang a scarf on one of the branches as an arrow pointing to where I was resting.  Dumb adults just didn't understand.

There are state laws that defines when it is legal.

[KisKis]

Thank goodness your friend was street-proofed (does that term even exist anymore?)

No.  It's become unnecessary as children are accompanied by an adult at all times until their mid-20s these days.

Funny and sad, but true.  I really have no idea how old my children need to be before I can let them stay home alone while I run to the store.  Is there some sort of society-agreed upon number these days?  I was also a latchkey kid from the 80s.  Dad worked Monday-Saturday at the office, and worked at home in seclusion on Sundays.  Mom worked full time, and shuttled me around to activities after she got home around 5:30, so I had a few hours by myself starting at the age of 6 or 7 after school.  I do remember that I forgot my key once or twice.  One time, I fell asleep under a tree about 10 yards away from the house while it was snowing out, and woke up to a policeman's flashlight shining in my face.  Parents and grandparents were all at the house in full panic.  The snow had lightly covered me up, though I remember making special efforts to hang a scarf on one of the branches as an arrow pointing to where I was resting.  Dumb adults just didn't understand.

There are state laws that defines when it is legal.

Not really.  There is no minimum age restriction in Alabama (and most other states).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/g/page/local/latchkey-children-age-restrictions-by-state/1555/

I guess it depends on the responsibility of the individual child, but I just wondered if there was some unspoken agreed-upon age where society wouldn't judge you as a bad parent.

[justajane]

(4) I was a latchkey kid in the '80s. My very favorite time of the day was the time between my arrival home from school and my mother's arrival home from work. Pure freedom. Admittedly, my mother was not a good parent. But I can hardly believe that bad parenting was unique to my mother.

Can I ask how your mom was a bad parent? Sometimes I have this fear that I am a bad parent and would like to know what things make a child feel this way. Presumably these aren't the obvious things like verbally or physically abusing you. I truly am curious - not challenging your perception at all.

[soulpatchmike]

One day in my 20's a memory came rushing back to me.  I don't remember how or why it did.  I was about 8 or so walking home from school with my best friend "Dee".  School was only about a 10-minute walk away.  We were going to my house to play.  At the time, I lived in a townhouse complex off a side street.  We were about to cross the street to go into the complex when a car pulled up alongside and a lady said to us "I'm a friend of your mother's.  She asked me to pick you up to drive you home." 

I was about to politely point out to this lady that, thank you very much, but this was not necessary as we were practically home - see, we lived right there - when Dee fiercely grabbed my arm and started running toward the main, busier street.  She then proceeded to yell at me for the next minute or so.  I didn't understand - what was the big deal?

I had this same experience in the 80s, except it was a woman in an old crappy car that was driving up the street from school on a cold winter day.  She stopped and asked if me and my friend wanted a ride with it being so cold.  We jumped in and she gave us a ride to my house.  The End...

We often forget that there are genuine people in the world.  Not saying that I wouldn't tan my kids hide for doing something like that, but I find it a bit sad that our culture today almost can't be genuinely nice anymore, especially when it involves kids...

[I'm a red panda]

My parents actually had a code word (a different one for both my sister and I) that they would tell any "friend" of theirs who was picking me up. 

Any other adult claiming to be a "friend" I was NOT allowed to go with (except of course the two across the street neighbors who were practically parents).

[I'm a red panda]

I had this same experience in the 80s, except it was a woman in an old crappy car that was driving up the street from school on a cold winter day.  She stopped and asked if me and my friend wanted a ride with it being so cold.  We jumped in and she gave us a ride to my house.  The End...

I think there are a few differences in the stories.  For one- it was just a woman, not a "friend of your Mom".  Two- they weren't saying they were asked to drive you home. They were just asking if you wanted a ride because the conditions sucked. Now why would the OP's Mom ask a friend to drive him home on his usual 10 minute walk?

If it was "Hi! OP- I'm a friend of your Mom, it's -20 outside today, do you want a ride the rest of the way home", then maybe the OP's story isn't as suspect as he remembers it being, and perhaps the person was kind, but the way it was told, it doesn't sound it.

[NewReality]

The typically acceptable age to be home alone for long periods of time that I've heard recently is 12; my children have been doing this since 10.

I don't want to be insensitive to others' experiences, but this term- "Latch Key Kid", I remember hearing this in the late '80s and thinking "WTF... this is 'a thing'?"

It's been common for young kids to come home to an empty house since there were such a thing as houses. Even in 2-parent households, where one was stay-at-home, I think it would be common for parents to be out or otherwise busy attending to errands or their own lives for much of the day.

It's almost like this is one of the early examples of this weird trend of labeling things that are in reality insignificant (terms like 'life hack' or labeling "generations" as X, Y, etc. are other examples of attempts to label ideas that are either trivial or spurious concepts).

I grew up in in 70s and 80s, and at various times my parents were either both working or else my mother was SAHM. There was no difference in my life whatsoever between the two scenarios; after school I did what I wanted, whether hanging out in town or with a friend or at home doing something by myself.

Perhaps against a larger social backdrop that has developed alongside stories of Adam Walsh and rhetoric like "return to traditional family values", such labels take on significance over time. I think it speaks more to the reality of a shift in thinking where children's independence and responsibility and parents not presiding over the home in a Norman Rockwell sort of way has this negative connotation.

[Cressida]

(4) I was a latchkey kid in the '80s. My very favorite time of the day was the time between my arrival home from school and my mother's arrival home from work. Pure freedom. Admittedly, my mother was not a good parent. But I can hardly believe that bad parenting was unique to my mother.

Can I ask how your mom was a bad parent? Sometimes I have this fear that I am a bad parent and would like to know what things make a child feel this way. Presumably these aren't the obvious things like verbally or physically abusing you. I truly am curious - not challenging your perception at all.

My mother was in fact physically and emotionally abusive. But even putting that aside, she would have been a bad parent anyway because she's a raging narcissist. She wanted her kids to behave not because she wanted us to learn about functioning in society but because she didn't want to look bad in public. She wanted her kids to do well in school not because she wanted us to eventually be able to provide for ourselves but because she wanted something to brag about. She made us go to church, even though we hated it, not because she cared about our immortal souls but because she didn't want her parents to disapprove of her. Stuff like that.

Of course, as a kid I only half-comprehended this. All I knew was that my mom smacked me around and belittled me and called me names and set arbitrary conditions on everything.

I totally get why you asked the question, and just from the fact that you asked it, I already know you're a much better parent than my mother. My mother would never, ever, in a million years, have wondered if any particular difficult parenting experience was her own fault and not her kids'.

[gooki]

In New Zealand,  it is against the law to leave children under 14 without making reasonable provision for their care and supervision.

I think it's bonkers, but that's the law here.

[MsPeacock]

I came home after school w/ my younger sister (she was 3 grades behind me) starting when I was in 3rd grade or so. I think it was much too young to be on our own for several hours every day, including late evenings. We were also left alone at home overnight at not much older than that (I was maybe in 4th grade). This was just one of other situations in which our childhood needs were basically neglected, partially due to economic necessity (single mom who had to work) and partially due to a parent w/ poor decision making skills and selfish priorities. I was cooking my own meals, using the stove and oven (with frequent mishaps) by the time I was 10 years old - basically w/o any teaching on how to do so safely. There were other issues that went with being "latchkey" that included not having food prepared, the house being in a state of gross levels of uncleanliness, lack of food in the house, no help w/ homework, no real opportunity to be involved in after-school sports and such, etc. We were also on our own all summer starting when I was 10 or so.

Was it bad - in retrospect, yeah. I just had nothing to compare it to at the time. On the upside I am resourceful as hell and independent,  which at least helped in the situation and are useful traits that were likely strengthened as a result of the experience.

Now, I work and I am a single mom - and I have a nanny or after-school childcare (it has varied over the years) as well as a morning nanny. And my older son - who just turned 12 - had the privilege of being allowed to come home on his own after school. (State law says 11 to be on their own, 13 to watch younger children). We won't be repeating that unstructured time again this year. I have shifted my work hours to come in painfully early (morning nanny) so I can get off work shortly after they get home from school, and there will be an afternoon nanny for the time before I get home.  I just found in the absence of an adult presence requirements (e.g. homework done before electronics; walk the dog before going to a friends house, calling me) were routinely disregarded. I don't hesitate over my absence to run to the store or whatever, or give him pretty free reign on weekends when I am around to monitor - but on a daily basis I think most children need a bit more structure.

[MsPeacock]

Of course, as a kid I only half-comprehended this. All I knew was that my mom smacked me around and belittled me and called me names and set arbitrary conditions on everything.

I am sorry this happened to you - and I can totally relate.

Also - to the pp who said kids were routinely at home and didn't understand how "latch key" kids were a thing. I disagree - there was a huge cultural shift towards women working outside the house starting in the 1970s and 1980s. The routine, common (relatively speaking) habit of having children coming home to an empty house because both parents were at work was a very new thing at that time. Of course prior to that some children were sometimes left alone, but not the way it started happening in the late 70s / early 80s. There was also increase in divorces (because they were more often 'no fault') at the same time, so more single moms working. Also, because it was relatively new - the availability of daycare and after school childcare was much less than it is now. Now - I have school age children and I have many available programs to choose from: some in the school, others that will pick my kids up at the school and take them to "camp" with various sports, babysitters, nannies, etc. Those sorts of arrangements were just about non-existent in the 1970 for school age children. Even full-day daycare for younger children was not widely available.

[Caoineag]

I spent lots of time alone throughout my childhood (only child at the time) and even at that time, I knew I was left home alone at a time I wasn't supposed to be so I didn't tell anyone (I had been warned not to tell). I never minded at all and have always been very resourceful. I knew how to cook at an early age, no mishaps and enjoyed the quiet. But I was also a shrewd little kid who had been taught various self-defense techniques (including be aware of your environment and potential predators nearby)by my ex-marine father and had been taught lots of domestic skills by my mother who I could call if I had any issues. I don't feel I was neglected at all. But I always knew when I would be home alone and why and they did try to minimize it at the <7 year age range. I am pretty sure by 9 they didn't worry about time alone anymore because they knew I was fine with it. I remember as a teenager taking care of a 12 year old and her 2 younger siblings and asking my mom why it was even needed. She pointed out differences in maturity levels and that 2 younger siblings made it harder for the parents to leave her their alone with them.

I also think part of the reason I never felt neglected is I remember my parents interrogating me about any time alone as to how I felt, was I scared, did I feel like being alone was a bad thing, etc. I remember laughing at them and telling them not to worry, when I was reading it was not like I was aware of anyone existing anyways (voracious reader as a child, people have always been optional to me). They were more concerned about my time alone than I was. I am pretty sure if I had said I didn't like it, they would have made other arrangements.

[Cressida]

I am sorry this happened to you - and I can totally relate.

Back at you. And like you, we had the uncleanliness thing going on on top of it. It was nice to get out of that house, for multiple reasons.

[Insanity]

Of course, as a kid I only half-comprehended this. All I knew was that my mom smacked me around and belittled me and called me names and set arbitrary conditions on everything.

The belittling things is something I can't stand.  I see parents who do this to five year olds and it infuriates me.  You are supposed to be helping your kid's self esteem not be condescending to them.

[tele25]

I have a blog (www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com) and in my most recent post, talk about why a young couple might want to consider team trucking so that they can retire (like MMM) and then start a family.

It got me to thinking about my own upbringing with some bitterness.  I was an only child and both of my parents worked.  I was shoved into daycare from the age of about 2.  I was given a key to the house from about 7 and each day I would walk home from school, let myself into the house and wait a couple of hours for my father to get home from work and an additional 3 hours for my mother.  This was the 80's by the way, when I don't think a young child home alone necessarily equated to child endangerment or abuse. I was a stubborn kid and it seemed that my parents took the view that "Karen knows her own mind and what she wants".

<snip>

I wasn't a stupid kid, nor did I have uncaring parents or a failing school system.  And yet, along with (and perhaps exceeding) all of the warnings, I was taught to be respectful and polite to adults.  To my 8-year old mind, this lady in the car was an adult and don't all adults know better?

You did have uncaring parents otherwise they would have kept you at home until you were 5 and taken you to and from school until you were 11 or 12 if they really did care about you.

MOD NOTE: not productive to the conversation (as may following posters point out.) If you feel the need to debate or share your knowledge, please try to stay towards the top of Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement - http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/

[Gin1984]

I have a blog (www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com) and in my most recent post, talk about why a young couple might want to consider team trucking so that they can retire (like MMM) and then start a family.

It got me to thinking about my own upbringing with some bitterness.  I was an only child and both of my parents worked.  I was shoved into daycare from the age of about 2.  I was given a key to the house from about 7 and each day I would walk home from school, let myself into the house and wait a couple of hours for my father to get home from work and an additional 3 hours for my mother.  This was the 80's by the way, when I don't think a young child home alone necessarily equated to child endangerment or abuse. I was a stubborn kid and it seemed that my parents took the view that "Karen knows her own mind and what she wants".

<snip>

I wasn't a stupid kid, nor did I have uncaring parents or a failing school system.  And yet, along with (and perhaps exceeding) all of the warnings, I was taught to be respectful and polite to adults.  To my 8-year old mind, this lady in the car was an adult and don't all adults know better?

You did have uncaring parents otherwise they would have kept you at home until you were 5 and taken you to and from school until you were 11 or 12 if they really did care about you.

Excuse you.  Now that is rude.  Because parents have job to support their child and believe their child to be competent, does not mean they are uncaring.

[tele25]

I have a blog (www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com) and in my most recent post, talk about why a young couple might want to consider team trucking so that they can retire (like MMM) and then start a family.

It got me to thinking about my own upbringing with some bitterness.  I was an only child and both of my parents worked.  I was shoved into daycare from the age of about 2.  I was given a key to the house from about 7 and each day I would walk home from school, let myself into the house and wait a couple of hours for my father to get home from work and an additional 3 hours for my mother.  This was the 80's by the way, when I don't think a young child home alone necessarily equated to child endangerment or abuse. I was a stubborn kid and it seemed that my parents took the view that "Karen knows her own mind and what she wants".

<snip>

I wasn't a stupid kid, nor did I have uncaring parents or a failing school system.  And yet, along with (and perhaps exceeding) all of the warnings, I was taught to be respectful and polite to adults.  To my 8-year old mind, this lady in the car was an adult and don't all adults know better?

You did have uncaring parents otherwise they would have kept you at home until you were 5 and taken you to and from school until you were 11 or 12 if they really did care about you.

Excuse you.  Now that is rude.  Because parents have job to support their child and believe their child to be competent, does not mean they are uncaring.

No, I am not going to excuse you because it is not rude, it is factually correct. The parents could have changed their spending habits so one of them was at home until the child reached school age.

This is a forum about being better with money, after all.

[GuitarStv]

What part of sending a young child to daycare is uncaring?

[Gin1984]

I have a blog (www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com) and in my most recent post, talk about why a young couple might want to consider team trucking so that they can retire (like MMM) and then start a family.

It got me to thinking about my own upbringing with some bitterness.  I was an only child and both of my parents worked.  I was shoved into daycare from the age of about 2.  I was given a key to the house from about 7 and each day I would walk home from school, let myself into the house and wait a couple of hours for my father to get home from work and an additional 3 hours for my mother.  This was the 80's by the way, when I don't think a young child home alone necessarily equated to child endangerment or abuse. I was a stubborn kid and it seemed that my parents took the view that "Karen knows her own mind and what she wants".

<snip>

I wasn't a stupid kid, nor did I have uncaring parents or a failing school system.  And yet, along with (and perhaps exceeding) all of the warnings, I was taught to be respectful and polite to adults.  To my 8-year old mind, this lady in the car was an adult and don't all adults know better?

You did have uncaring parents otherwise they would have kept you at home until you were 5 and taken you to and from school until you were 11 or 12 if they really did care about you.

Excuse you.  Now that is rude.  Because parents have job to support their child and believe their child to be competent, does not mean they are uncaring.

No, I am not going to excuse you because it is not rude, it is factually correct. The parents could have changed their spending habits so one of them was at home until the child reached school age.

This is a forum about being better with money, after all.

Actually it has been shown that girls do better in life when the mother works so no it is not factually correct, you are just being rude and I did not ask to be excuse by you because I was not the one being an ass.  And often people don't have the ability to not work.  My mom was single parent.  Her mother stayed at home, yet they had no money because my grandfather was drunk and drank it all.  When my grandmother divorced her husband, my mother's life got a hell of lot better as did my younger aunt. 

[CommonCents]

I have a blog (www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com) and in my most recent post, talk about why a young couple might want to consider team trucking so that they can retire (like MMM) and then start a family.

It got me to thinking about my own upbringing with some bitterness.  I was an only child and both of my parents worked.  I was shoved into daycare from the age of about 2.  I was given a key to the house from about 7 and each day I would walk home from school, let myself into the house and wait a couple of hours for my father to get home from work and an additional 3 hours for my mother.  This was the 80's by the way, when I don't think a young child home alone necessarily equated to child endangerment or abuse. I was a stubborn kid and it seemed that my parents took the view that "Karen knows her own mind and what she wants".

<snip>

I wasn't a stupid kid, nor did I have uncaring parents or a failing school system.  And yet, along with (and perhaps exceeding) all of the warnings, I was taught to be respectful and polite to adults.  To my 8-year old mind, this lady in the car was an adult and don't all adults know better?

You did have uncaring parents otherwise they would have kept you at home until you were 5 and taken you to and from school until you were 11 or 12 if they really did care about you.

Excuse you.  Now that is rude.  Because parents have job to support their child and believe their child to be competent, does not mean they are uncaring.

No, I am not going to excuse you because it is not rude, it is factually correct. The parents could have changed their spending habits so one of them was at home until the child reached school age.

This is a forum about being better with money, after all.

Actually it has been shown that girls do better in life when the mother works so no it is not factually correct, you are just being rude and I did not ask to be excuse by you because I was not the one being an ass.  And often people don't have the ability to not work.  My mom was single parent.  Her mother stayed at home, yet they had no money because my grandfather was drunk and drank it all.  When my grandmother divorced her husband, my mother's life got a hell of lot better as did my younger aunt.

tele25, such sweeping judgments are really inappropriate.  ETA: "Don't be a jerk" is forum rule number one.  Labeling someone's parents as uncaring for using daycare treads that line.  Be respectful of equally valid choices to be a working parent or stay at home parent.

[I'm a red panda]

You did have uncaring parents otherwise they would have kept you at home until you were 5 and taken you to and from school until you were 11 or 12 if they really did care about you.

That's complete BS.  Having working parents does not mean you have uncaring parents.

I plan to work when I have my first child. In addition to the income (which sure is nice and will allow for experiences for my child that I wouldn't have been able to give them without it), leaving work would mean significant, possibly unrecoverable, regression in my career field. I want my child to know, especially if it is a girl, that women can be as successful as men and do not need to settle for being second class.

[tele25]

You did have uncaring parents otherwise they would have kept you at home until you were 5 and taken you to and from school until you were 11 or 12 if they really did care about you.

That's complete BS.  Having working parents does not mean you have uncaring parents.

I plan to work when I have my first child. In addition to the income (which sure is nice and will allow for experiences for my child that I wouldn't have been able to give them without it), leaving work would mean significant, possibly unrecoverable, regression in my career field.

The bullshit is coming from you. Having working parents with a 0 -5 year old child means the parents care more about themselves than the needs of the child.

After all, any child of that age would much rather spend all day with kind, loving caring parents interacting with them even if its only playing with an empty cardboard box instead of having a bedroom stuff with bright shiney expensive baubles which they can only play with at night as during the day they are forced to attend some daycare facility with other peoples possibly ill behaved undisciplined and aggressive brats.

But don't think that I'm criticing you because I'm not, I have 4 children and I know it is difficult bringing them up. I just want you to be honest that your job is more important to you than your child.

I want my child to know, especially if it is a girl, that women can be as successful as men and do not need to settle for being second class.

I never mentioned women being second class citizens. If you earn more than your husband it would make sense for him to stay at home to look after your child.


tele25
stay at home father

[I'm a red panda]

After all, any child of that age would much rather spend all day with kind, loving caring parents interacting with them even if its only playing with an empty cardboard box instead of having a bedroom stuff with bright shiney expensive baubles which they can only play with at night as during the day they are forced to attend some daycare facility with other peoples possibly ill behaved undisciplined and aggressive brats.

Daycare attendance with people's "ill" children can actually boost immunity which will serve them lifelong.

Infants just need their needs met. Toddlers and preschoolers often ENJOY the stimulation of daycare. It is actually rarer to have one come in crying than to have ones that bound into the room excited for a new day of learning, and leave telling their parents about the exciting thing you did all day.

And, at least in my experience, day cares mean children get a lot less screentime than they do at home.  Every daycare I've worked in has 0 hours of screentime during the day. I don't know a single SAH parent who can manage that during the full day, if only for a chance to go to the bathroom uninterrupted.  Perhaps you've managed to buck the trend.

I'm very happy about the daycare I've picked for my child.  By the time s/he starts kindergarten, she will be able to be speaking and possibly reading/beginning writing in two languages.  If she stayed home with me, that certainly would not be true.


And my husband does NOT have the temperament to be a SAHD. Not everyone can do that. Doesn't mean he won't be a loving and caring father.  I also don't make more than him (though we are very close)- that doesn't mean my career is less important than his.

[justajane]

Sigh. Can't we all just respect other peoples' decisions rather than coming up with all the ways that we probably do things better for our kids (more time with parent, less screen time, more socialization, better behaved children, better immune system blah blah blah)? I wish tele25 hadn't come on here to rudely muddy the waters. Don't take the bait and respond, because that puts you in a defensive position that leads you to seek to justify your decisions by reinforcing stereotypes and/or realities about the "opposition." It just gets so tiring. Don't stoop to the troll's level.

[I'm a red panda]

Can't we all just respect other peoples' decisions rather than coming up with all the ways that we probably do things better for our kids

I have no problem at all with people who choose to be SAHP. I have a problem with people who say it is BETTER. 

It is DIFFERENT.

Whether or not it is better depends entirely on the SAHP and the experience they give the kid vs. the daycare and the experience they give the kid.  There are shitty daycares out there, but there are certainly shitty parents who stay at home too.

[justajane]

Can't we all just respect other peoples' decisions rather than coming up with all the ways that we probably do things better for our kids

I have no problem at all with people who choose to be SAHP. I have a problem with people who say it is BETTER. 

It is DIFFERENT.

Whether or not it is better depends entirely on the SAHP and the experience they give the kid vs. the daycare and the experience they give the kid.  There are shitty daycares out there, but there are certainly shitty parents who stay at home too.

Fair enough, but lots of what you were writing implied that a child being in a daycare is better (more stimulating, less screen time, better for their lifelong health, multilingual abilities etc. etc.) rather than different. I'm fine with the latter but not the former, since it's not much different than what tele25 was doing, even though your delivery was much more polite.

[I'm a red panda]

Fair enough, but lots of what you were writing implied that a child being in a daycare is better (more stimulating, less screen time, better for their lifelong health, multilingual abilities etc. etc.) rather than different. I'm fine with the latter but not the former, since it's not much different than what tele25 was doing, even though your delivery was much more polite.

No, I think there are plenty parents who do a great job as SAHP.  If that's your thing, great.  I had a Mom stay at home until I was in high school, and it had advantages; the number one being that I had someone to cart me around to soccer, dance, girl scouts, etc everyday after school.
But to deny there are documented benefits to daycare is silly.  Even the SAHPs I know usually send their kid to Mother's Day out 1 or 2 days a week; and that is just to get grocery shopping done!

[swick]

MOD NOTE: A reminder to keep in mind the forum rules: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-rules/ Specifically, refer to Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement and keep your arguments near the top of the pyramid....

Better yet....accept that there are many different and valid ways of parenting, there is no one-size-fits-all solution - agree to disagree - turn off the computer - and spend some time adventuring with the kids in your life. You'll all feel better.

[justajane]

Fair enough, but lots of what you were writing implied that a child being in a daycare is better (more stimulating, less screen time, better for their lifelong health, multilingual abilities etc. etc.) rather than different. I'm fine with the latter but not the former, since it's not much different than what tele25 was doing, even though your delivery was much more polite.

No, I think there are plenty parents who do a great job as SAHP.  If that's your thing, great.  I had a Mom stay at home until I was in high school, and it had advantages; the number one being that I had someone to cart me around to soccer, dance, girl scouts, etc everyday after school.
But to deny there are documented benefits to daycare is silly.  Even the SAHPs I know usually send their kid to Mother's Day out 1 or 2 days a week; and that is just to get grocery shopping done!

It's all in how you frame it, and your framing was quite reactionary. In my experiences with the "mommy wars", one "side" says something hurtful and then the other "side" lashes out and says something equally offensive like your bit about teaching women not to be second class (WTF was that by the way?). It happens every time. And round and round we go.

If you are going to acknowledge the pros of a situation, you have to be willing to engage honestly with the cons as well. Both "sides" are loathe to do this.  I put sides in quotation marks because really we are just all people trying to make our way. There shouldn't be sides at all. 

Moving on, I like this discussion about latch key kids, because it acknowledges that not everyone back in the 70s and 80s loved laissez faire parenting. Based on the mommy blog articles posted ad nauseum by parents on FB, you'd think it was the best thing ever to be left alone for most of the day and that this is the parenting we should emulate. I think it's hard to strike a balance, but I just can't think that locking the door and telling my seven year old to come home when the street lights come on is the ideal approach, despite how we wax on about the sweet days of yore.

Cressida, thank you for your reply. I am so sorry that you had to grow up in such an environment.

[Gin1984]

Fair enough, but lots of what you were writing implied that a child being in a daycare is better (more stimulating, less screen time, better for their lifelong health, multilingual abilities etc. etc.) rather than different. I'm fine with the latter but not the former, since it's not much different than what tele25 was doing, even though your delivery was much more polite.

No, I think there are plenty parents who do a great job as SAHP.  If that's your thing, great.  I had a Mom stay at home until I was in high school, and it had advantages; the number one being that I had someone to cart me around to soccer, dance, girl scouts, etc everyday after school.
But to deny there are documented benefits to daycare is silly.  Even the SAHPs I know usually send their kid to Mother's Day out 1 or 2 days a week; and that is just to get grocery shopping done!

It's all in how you frame it, and your framing was quite reactionary. In my experiences with the "mommy wars", one "side" says something hurtful and then the other "side" lashes out and says something equally offensive like your bit about teaching women not to be second class (WTF was that by the way?). It happens every time. And round and round we go.

If you are going to acknowledge the pros of a situation, you have to be willing to engage honestly with the cons as well. Both "sides" are loathe to do this.  I put sides in quotation marks because really we are just all people trying to make our way. There shouldn't be sides at all. 

Moving on, I like this discussion about latch key kids, because it acknowledges that not everyone back in the 70s and 80s loved laissez faire parenting. Based on the mommy blog articles posted ad nauseum by parents on FB, you'd think it was the best thing ever to be left alone for most of the day and that this is the parenting we should emulate. I think it's hard to strike a balance, but I just can't think that locking the door and telling my seven year old to come home when the street lights come on is the ideal approach, despite how we wax on about the sweet days of yore.

Cressida, thank you for your reply. I am so sorry that you had to grow up in such an environment.

Given that I started that, I'll explain.  It is not an insult and I can look for the paper later that I read it in, but it has been shown that women (specifically) did better in careers and in overall subjective internal judgements (basically did the women judge herself to be happy etc) if they were exposed to their mothers working as opposed SAHP alone. 
So yes, a working mother is good for a female child all other variables being the same.  That is not an attack on stay at home parents.  I am pretty sure that without those stay at home parents the working parents would be screwed trying to get everything done, lol.  And you can be a sucky working parent. 
And this does not account for male children and men staying home.  Maybe it would be better, in this generation if moms all work and men all stayed home (I'm being sarcastic here). 

[LadyStache in Baja]

Wow, Kitsune, Thanks for this!  I teared up reading it.  Apple Crumble!  Thanks for sharing your experience as a kid because I'm putting my kids in preschool next year and I really feel guilty about choosing my work over that time with my kids.  Thanks for saying that seeing your mom work taught you a lot.  And thanks for sharing about your own daughter!  I know my son is excited to go to school in August.  I can't wait!

I was a semi-latchkey kid in the 90s, and I honestly loved it. Some days, my dad worked from home, so he was there when the bus dropped me off. Other days, they'd get home around 6, and I was home around 4 (I would've been... maybe 10, at the time).

I had strict instructions to come straight into the house, re-lock the doors behind me, make apple crumble and put it in the oven for dessert, and then do whatever I wanted. Result: apple crumble takes 10 minutes (and I can still pretty much make it in my sleep), and I had at least an hour and a half of time to read with no one disturbing me. BLISS.


Personally, I'm really glad my mom worked - seeing her and learning from her taught me a LOT.

My daughter is in daycare (she started at 14 months) and LOVES it (like, drags her bag to the door and holds up her arms to go, usually a half-hour before it's time to go... but she was always a super-social baby who loved being around lots of other kids, so, it's entirely in character.) I wouldn't be quite ok with her walking home by herself at 7, but I'd expect a 10-year-old to at least be able to bike home alone and take care of basic chores.

[tele25]

What part of sending a young child to daycare is uncaring?

Ask your daycare aged children which they would prefer.

1. To be rushed in the morning to be packed off to daycare where they might be exposed to others peoples feral children and to come home at night to parents who are too busy and tired to play with them.

2. To spend the day in an unhurried manner where they can laugh and learn with a loving parent who has plenty of time and attention to give them even though they live in a smaller house without an addtional unused bedroom, the sofa and caarpets are rather threadbare and the parents only have one older car.

Our host, Pete, Mr MMM himself didn't pack off his child to daycare did he. Why, because its better for the child.

[deborah]

What part of sending a young child to daycare is uncaring?

Ask your daycare aged children which they would prefer.

1. To be rushed in the morning to be packed off to daycare where they might be exposed to others peoples feral children and to come home at night to parents who are too busy and tired to play with them.

2. To spend the day in an unhurried manner where they can laugh and learn with a loving parent who has plenty of time and attention to give them even though they live in a smaller house without an addtional unused bedroom, the sofa and caarpets are rather threadbare and the parents only have one older car.

Our host, Pete, Mr MMM himself didn't pack off his child to daycare did he. Why, because its better for the child.

Different people, different needs. While we grew up as latch key children, each of my siblings has received international recognition of our achievements.

Nothing works for everyone, so why put people in rigid boxes like this?

[GuitarStv]

You're making a lot of (incorrect) assumptions.

I'm not fantastic with younger kids for long periods.  Were I to stay home from work to look after my son he would get less quality time and attention than he currently does from me because I'd be constantly exhausted.  I know this because I have taken some time off work to care for my son.  Our son loves to go to the daycare he's in.  He has friends there, and knows and likes the ECEs.  There are more activities to do than I would plan out for him at home.  (We currently live in a smaller house with threadbare sofa and carpets and only one older car though.)

It's quite presumptuous to decree that you know what's best for a child and parents you've never met.

[tele25]

After all, any child of that age would much rather spend all day with kind, loving caring parents interacting with them even if its only playing with an empty cardboard box instead of having a bedroom stuff with bright shiney expensive baubles which they can only play with at night as during the day they are forced to attend some daycare facility with other peoples possibly ill behaved undisciplined and aggressive brats.

Daycare attendance with people's "ill" children can actually boost immunity which will serve them lifelong.

Infants just need their needs met. Toddlers and preschoolers often ENJOY the stimulation of daycare. It is actually rarer to have one come in crying than to have ones that bound into the room excited for a new day of learning, and leave telling their parents about the exciting thing you did all day.

And, at least in my experience, day cares mean children get a lot less screentime than they do at home.  Every daycare I've worked in has 0 hours of screentime during the day. I don't know a single SAH parent who can manage that during the full day, if only for a chance to go to the bathroom uninterrupted.  Perhaps you've managed to buck the trend.

I'm very happy about the daycare I've picked for my child.  By the time s/he starts kindergarten, she will be able to be speaking and possibly reading/beginning writing in two languages.  If she stayed home with me, that certainly would not be true.


And my husband does NOT have the temperament to be a SAHD. Not everyone can do that. Doesn't mean he won't be a loving and caring father.  I also don't make more than him (though we are very close)- that doesn't mean my career is less important than his.

I didn't mean "ill children" as children with disease. I meant ill behaved children, ie, those whose parents hit them and who in turn think its OK to hit your child.

Are you seriously trying to claim that you cant stimulate your own child as well as a daycare.

The solution to screentime is to either hide the remote or not have a telly in the house.

You may well be very happy with the daycare but its not about you, its about your child.

This is the second time you have mentioned the word "career".

This website/forum is based around the lies that surround consumerism. do the same thing to "careerism" and suddenly "career" is much more usefully regarded as being nothing more than 'a series of jobs'.

So if ' significant, possibly unrecoverable, regression in my career field' to use your own words is more important to you than spending all day with your child you should be honest about it.

[deborah]

A career is much more than a series of jobs - it is a PROGRESSIVE series of jobs. A series of jobs often doesn't give you more pay, a career generally does. A series of jobs often doesn't give useful perks, like unemployment benefits, health care, pensions... - a career generally does.

[tele25]

You're making a lot of (incorrect) assumptions.

I'm not fantastic with younger kids for long periods.  Were I to stay home from work to look after my son he would get less quality time and attention than he currently does from me because I'd be constantly exhausted.  I know this because I have taken some time off work to care for my son.  Our son loves to go to the daycare he's in.  He has friends there, and knows and likes the ECEs.  There are more activities to do than I would plan out for him at home.  (We currently live in a smaller house with threadbare sofa and carpets and only one older car though.)

It's quite presumptuous to decree that you know what's best for a child and parents you've never met.

Its perfectly alright to admit that you dont want to be bothered by young kids.In which case you either suck it up and put the needs of the child above your own or arrange with your spouse that they look after the child and you work.

[tele25]

A career is much more than a series of jobs - it is a PROGRESSIVE series of jobs. A series of jobs often doesn't give you more pay, a career generally does. A series of jobs often doesn't give useful perks, like unemployment benefits, health care, pensions... - a career generally does.

Why would anyone change jobs unless they got more pay, better bennies, a cubicle with a window etc.........

Hence, A SERIES OF JOBS.

[GuitarStv]

You're making a lot of (incorrect) assumptions.

I'm not fantastic with younger kids for long periods.  Were I to stay home from work to look after my son he would get less quality time and attention than he currently does from me because I'd be constantly exhausted.  I know this because I have taken some time off work to care for my son.  Our son loves to go to the daycare he's in.  He has friends there, and knows and likes the ECEs.  There are more activities to do than I would plan out for him at home.  (We currently live in a smaller house with threadbare sofa and carpets and only one older car though.)

It's quite presumptuous to decree that you know what's best for a child and parents you've never met.

Its perfectly alright to admit that you dont want to be bothered by young kids.In which case you either suck it up and put the needs of the child above your own or arrange with your spouse that they look after the child and you work.

Please feel free to review the post you quoted.  You appear to have misread it.

Can I ask, how many kids do you have?  At what age did you quit your job to look after them?

[Ambergris]

Thank goodness your friend was street-proofed (does that term even exist anymore?)

No.  It's become unnecessary as children are accompanied by an adult at all times until their mid-20s these days.

As a university professor I can attest that this is almost not hyperbole. At orientation events at our university (and from others communication I know this is true almost everywhere else) we have to lay on "parents events" because it is the only way to stop parents attempting to accompany their 18 yr old offspring to private advising sessions - you have to direct the parents to go elsewhere.

I have one story of my own: in our department the faculty split up advising duties. I was recently assigned a new student as an advisee and was a bit surprised when his mother emailed me to make arrangements for his classes for the next semester. This isn't that unusual: I have to tell them that giving them this information is against Federal law without written permission from the student.

But here's the clincher: I pulled his record and this student was transferring in from another institution as a junior. He was 21 years old with no disabilities.

[deborah]

A career is much more than a series of jobs - it is a PROGRESSIVE series of jobs. A series of jobs often doesn't give you more pay, a career generally does. A series of jobs often doesn't give useful perks, like unemployment benefits, health care, pensions... - a career generally does.

Why would anyone change jobs unless they got more pay, better bennies, a cubicle with a window etc.........

Hence, A SERIES OF JOBS.

Let us see - they could have been sacked, they could find the culture at heir current job toxic, they could be a partner of a someone whose job moves a lot (army for example), they could leave their job to have a child and find out they have no job to come back to, they could even leave their job to care for a child for a few years and find when they come back that they have to DROP a few levels...