Author Topic: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.  (Read 23225 times)

Lagom

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #600 on: November 11, 2017, 01:50:17 AM »
No, I did not say that. You can wager or believe what you will,   I wrote clearly about the difference between Christians and Jews in both original and current Muslim theology.

OK... so can you clarify for me, do you currently fear practicing American Muslims?

farfromfire

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #601 on: November 11, 2017, 01:54:03 AM »
No, I did not say that. You can wager or believe what you will,   I wrote clearly about the difference between Christians and Jews in both original and current Muslim theology.

OK... so can you clarify for me, do you currently fear practicing American Muslims?
Nope.

GuitarStv

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #602 on: November 11, 2017, 06:29:10 AM »
A couple comments here:
- I work in a city with a large practicing Muslim population.  We often have people from various religions working together at our company, including Jewish and Muslim people.  Given your analysis of the Koran commanding the death of Jews how would you explain this?
- According to the bible women are required to dress modestly and act meek/demure.  It's illegal to masturbate.  If you rape a woman, she must marry you.  The Old Testament has several instances where it condones rape of women who are married to enemies of Christians, as well as murder of children.  Yet, I'd say that very few of the Christans I've ever met believe in or practice what's listed in these extreme passages.  Do you think it's because there's a level of interpretation that modern people put on ancient religious manuscripts?  Do you believe that followers of Muslim faith are incapable of this for some reason?

farfromfire

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #603 on: November 11, 2017, 09:27:16 AM »
A couple comments here:
- I work in a city with a large practicing Muslim population.  We often have people from various religions working together at our company, including Jewish and Muslim people.  Given your analysis of the Koran commanding the death of Jews how would you explain this?
- According to the bible women are required to dress modestly and act meek/demure.  It's illegal to masturbate.  If you rape a woman, she must marry you.  The Old Testament has several instances where it condones rape of women who are married to enemies of Christians, as well as murder of children.  Yet, I'd say that very few of the Christans I've ever met believe in or practice what's listed in these extreme passages.  Do you think it's because there's a level of interpretation that modern people put on ancient religious manuscripts?  Do you believe that followers of Muslim faith are incapable of this for some reason?
I will answer these but that will be the end of my contribution to the topic, as this is quite OT and my original comment (which was backed up by primary sources, unlike every response) was only meant to correct a mistake by one poster and answer a question by another.

- I did not analyze the Quran in my comment above, I quoted it verbatim. I understand the quotes might be jarring to those who have practising Muslim friends or just a general liberal worldview who assume their peers are similar. Some Muslims kill, some don't. Some peform Hajj, some do not. Muslims, like any other group of humans, are not a monolith so I don't see why I would need to explain any subgroup of them behaving differently than their scripture suggests.
If you are genuinely interested, I suggest you ask your (believing) Muslim coworkers what their beliefs on the topic are. Do they think Muhammad was wrong, or that his prophecy is no longer true? Chances are, they live in a sort of cognitive dissonance on the subject.
- I don't know what version of the Old Testament you have at home, but I promise you it does not mention Christians. I do not have time to educate on the differences between descriptive/prescriptive/prophesied violence in Old Testament/New Testament/Quran, if you are genuinely interested I recommend you start here, in which most information is properly sourced.

Lagom

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #604 on: November 11, 2017, 12:19:26 PM »
No, I did not say that. You can wager or believe what you will,   I wrote clearly about the difference between Christians and Jews in both original and current Muslim theology.

OK... so can you clarify for me, do you currently fear practicing American Muslims?
Nope.

Could have fooled me. So then you agree, just as it is with Christianity, there are things in holy texts of many religions that people might find shocking and disagreeable? Given that you ostensibly agree with that, I guess you were just being pedantic? Fair enough if so, I was just not sure what else we are supposed to take away from your comments.

jim555

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #605 on: November 11, 2017, 07:49:00 PM »
Shocking lack of knowledge of Christian theology in this thread.

PriestTheRunner

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #606 on: November 12, 2017, 09:01:51 PM »
Shocking lack of knowledge of Christian theology in this thread.

Unfortunately, previous encounters re: Christian Theology have a distinct tendency to keep those of us who are knowledgeable in the subject from speaking up...  :/

But, in general, American Christianity has neglected a proper study of theology (even overall theology, not referencing the denominational level theology) for 40+ years.  Not everyone, but most.

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Just Joe

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #607 on: November 13, 2017, 07:38:54 AM »
I missed something.   Are guns not permitted in church?

Self defense is perhaps the primary reason American gun enthusiasts insist on their firearms.   Why wouldn't they have them in church?

Depends on the state I suppose. I had lunch with a southern country preacher yesterday that explained that his congregation was meeting to create procedures to protect themselves. Armed church members at the front and back of the room (concealed pistols). Maybe someone watching the exterior of the church. Perhaps nobody allowed to leave and return. Also, a discussion is happening among regional churches to compare notes and ideas.

Wtf kind of America do you want to be living in? Because mine never has and (God willing) never will necessitate that kind of paranoia.

I agree. That's not how I want to deal with the problem either. You have the understand that some of these folks were carrying concealed pistols already. Easy to include at church. Recent events validate their worries. I on the other hand have lived in this area my whole life aside from my time in the military. Never had a need for a weapon. I also don't go for a 2AM walk alone and I don't frequent rough biker bars. ;) I think for some folks a pistol is a solution looking for a problem.

GuitarStv

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #608 on: November 13, 2017, 08:04:06 AM »
- I don't know what version of the Old Testament you have at home, but I promise you it does not mention Christians.

You're completely right.  I said 'Christian' when I guess I should have said 'Jew' since the old testament covers the period of time before the birth of Christ and therefore before Christians were a thing.  :P  Mea Culpa on that.


A couple comments here:
- I work in a city with a large practicing Muslim population.  We often have people from various religions working together at our company, including Jewish and Muslim people.  Given your analysis of the Koran commanding the death of Jews how would you explain this?
- According to the bible women are required to dress modestly and act meek/demure.  It's illegal to masturbate.  If you rape a woman, she must marry you.  The Old Testament has several instances where it condones rape of women who are married to enemies of Christians, as well as murder of children.  Yet, I'd say that very few of the Christans I've ever met believe in or practice what's listed in these extreme passages.  Do you think it's because there's a level of interpretation that modern people put on ancient religious manuscripts?  Do you believe that followers of Muslim faith are incapable of this for some reason?
I will answer these but that will be the end of my contribution to the topic, as this is quite OT and my original comment (which was backed up by primary sources, unlike every response) was only meant to correct a mistake by one poster and answer a question by another.

- I did not analyze the Quran in my comment above, I quoted it verbatim. I understand the quotes might be jarring to those who have practising Muslim friends or just a general liberal worldview who assume their peers are similar. Some Muslims kill, some don't. Some peform Hajj, some do not. Muslims, like any other group of humans, are not a monolith so I don't see why I would need to explain any subgroup of them behaving differently than their scripture suggests.

Since you seemed to have difficult finding the parts of the bible I was referring to, let me provide you with some verbatim quotations:

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."

Deuteronomy 21:10-14
“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.  However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.”

Judges 5:30
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."

Timothy 2:9
"Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire"

1 Peter 3:3   
"Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear"

Deuteronomy 22:5
“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God"

1 Corinthians 11:5-10
"But every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. For man was not made from woman, but woman from man."

1 Timothy 2:11
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness."


Now, I did not analyze the Bible in my comment above, I quoted it verbatim. I understand the quotes might be jarring to those who have practicing Christian friends or just a general liberal worldview who assume their peers are similar. Some Christians kill, some don't. Some worship on Sundays, some do not. Christians, like any other group of humans, are not a monolith so I don't see why I would need to explain any subgroup of them behaving differently than their scripture suggests.


I do not have time to educate on the differences between descriptive/prescriptive/prophesied violence in Old Testament/New Testament/Quran, if you are genuinely interested I recommend you start here, in which most information is properly sourced.

I'm afraid I do not have time to educate you as to why the website that you linked, produced and paid for by "EX-MUSLIMS OF NORTH AMERICA" - (https://www.whois.com/whois/wikiislam.net) is not really a fair/unbiased source of information or interpretations regarding the Islamic religion.

robartsd

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #609 on: November 13, 2017, 09:00:48 AM »
Judges 5:30
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."
This passage is taken a bit out of context. In the King James Version of the Bible, Judges 5 is a praise for a particular victory with great spoils. Here's the verse quoted:

"Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colours, a prey of divers colours of needlework, of divers colours of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?"

GuitarStv

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #610 on: November 13, 2017, 09:34:45 AM »
Judges 5:30
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil."
This passage is taken a bit out of context. In the King James Version of the Bible, Judges 5 is a praise for a particular victory with great spoils. Here's the verse quoted:

"Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colours, a prey of divers colours of needlework, of divers colours of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?"

This was not an attack on Christianity or the bible, I was attempting to demonstrate that taking direct quotes without context or analysis from most religious manuals can yield similarly disturbing results as those brought up by farfromfire regarding the Koran.  The bible is simply the manual I've got the most experience with.  (I try to avoid using the KJ bible when discussing religion since the English used in the 1600-1700s ((depending on which version of the KJ bible you're reading from)) is difficult for most to understand.)

hoping2retire35

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #611 on: November 14, 2017, 06:26:12 AM »
Care to explain your point on the Bible quotes? lots of different messages there; not sure how cross dressing had anything to do with what we were discussing in the least other than the mention of the words 'man' and 'woman'.

As to the Deut. 22:28-29, pretty sure that is statutory rape. If it was violent rape, that man would instantly be beaten to death. I could be wrong, just my guess of what any villagers a few thousands years ago would do to someone who attacked one of their girls.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #612 on: November 14, 2017, 07:10:22 AM »
The point is that Bible quotes taken out of context make modern Christians look bad in a manner most uncharitable, so the same might very well be true of Quran quotes.

Both religions have been around for such a long time that the actual texts are not a good way to understand the modern practices, anyways.

GuitarStv

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #613 on: November 14, 2017, 07:55:05 AM »
The point is that Bible quotes taken out of context make modern Christians look bad in a manner most uncharitable, so the same might very well be true of Quran quotes.

Both religions have been around for such a long time that the actual texts are not a good way to understand the modern practices, anyways.

Yes, that was exactly the point.  I don't expect modern Christian women to avoid wearing pearls and gold, to be against braiding their hair, to be quiet and submissive, or constantly need to wear a hat.  I don't expect Christians to support the forced marriage and rape of women in countries they invade.  Yet, these are passages taken directly from the bible.

farfromfire was using passages taken directly from the Koran in an attempt to try to prove that there's something wrong with Islam.  He then suggests that the many Muslims who don't follow the wacky stuff in the Koran are living in some sort of "cognitive dissonance".  My argument is that there's crazy stuff in any text written hundreds of years ago.  Does anyone really believe that being a good Christian means women can't wear pearls and gold, and must constantly wear a hat?  Yet that's in the bible (the new testament even!).


calimom

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #615 on: November 14, 2017, 03:58:37 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2017/11/14/officials-say-at-least-3-dead-after-shooting-at-multiple-scenes-including-california-elementary-school/

This is just miles from where I live (and not terribly far from my own daughter's elementary school) so  wasn't sure how much national play this story would get on the heels of so many multiple death mass shootings. After all this one has *only* five fatalities and 10 wounded. Another mentally unbalanced person with too easy access to high powered firearms.

Just another day in America. Freedom, right?

Kris

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #616 on: November 14, 2017, 04:07:09 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2017/11/14/officials-say-at-least-3-dead-after-shooting-at-multiple-scenes-including-california-elementary-school/

This is just miles from where I live (and not terribly far from my own daughter's elementary school) so  wasn't sure how much national play this story would get on the heels of so many multiple death mass shootings. After all this one has *only* five fatalities and 10 wounded. Another mentally unbalanced person with too easy access to high powered firearms.

Just another day in America. Freedom, right?

SO much freedom. #winning
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calimom

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #617 on: November 15, 2017, 10:36:52 PM »
Aaaaaaaand #45 adds to the conversation by confusing last week's mass shooting with this week's mass shooting:

http://people.com/politics/trump-confuses-mass-shootings-tweeting-condolences-to-texas-hours-after-tragedy-in-california/

Just Joe

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #618 on: November 16, 2017, 10:15:51 AM »
That's about right. Apparently at one point Trump thought clean coal was coal that had been washed...

How about he doesn't get to make rules about things he doesn't take the time to learn about???

Travis

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #619 on: November 16, 2017, 10:34:47 AM »
That's about right. Apparently at one point Trump thought clean coal was coal that had been washed...

How about he doesn't get to make rules about things he doesn't take the time to learn about???

If we enacted that rule, Congress would do even less than they already are. Though that could be a drastic improvement depending on your perspective.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 10:56:26 AM by Travis »
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spartana

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #620 on: November 16, 2017, 02:43:42 PM »
Don't know if was mentioned yet but NorCal shooter had 2 rifles he illegally made himself and 2 there were not registered to him. He was banned from owning any firearms.
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EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #621 on: November 16, 2017, 10:46:09 PM »
Don't know if was mentioned yet but NorCal shooter had 2 rifles he illegally made himself and 2 there were not registered to him. He was banned from owning any firearms.

So why doesn't this happen in other countries?  Surely there are crazy people that can do this there too?

Sorry, but I really think there is a serious root cause flaw in this country around guns and not addressing it after mass killings and heinous events is just turning a blind eye to the fact it will happen again.
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lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #622 on: November 16, 2017, 10:59:32 PM »
Don't know if was mentioned yet but NorCal shooter had 2 rifles he illegally made himself and 2 there were not registered to him. He was banned from owning any firearms.

So why doesn't this happen in other countries?  Surely there are crazy people that can do this there too?

Sorry, but I really think there is a serious root cause flaw in this country around guns and not addressing it after mass killings and heinous events is just turning a blind eye to the fact it will happen again.
It doesn't?

A stupid but striking way of highlighting Brazil's murder rate + this

robartsd

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #623 on: Today at 08:50:48 AM »
Don't know if was mentioned yet but NorCal shooter had 2 rifles he illegally made himself and 2 there were not registered to him. He was banned from owning any firearms.
So possibly tougher gun laws would have cut his weapon stache in half by preventing whomever provided the 2 guns not regsitered to him from making the transfer. He still would have had the 2 guns he made himself.

spartana

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #624 on: Today at 09:34:28 AM »
Don't know if was mentioned yet but NorCal shooter had 2 rifles he illegally made himself and 2 there were not registered to him. He was banned from owning any firearms.
So possibly tougher gun laws would have cut his weapon stache in half by preventing whomever provided the 2 guns not regsitered to him from making the transfer. He still would have had the 2 guns he made himself.
Not necessarily if he obtained those guns illegally (stolen) or were lent to him by a family member or friend (San Bernardino mass shooters, Sandy Hook,,etc...) who legally owned them. Caif has some of toughest gun laws in the country and have pretty  much all the restrictions many in this thread have asked for. So not sure what other restrictions can be applied or enforced that would limit these kinds of things. I'm pro gun ownership and pro gun laws and am fine with our laws in Cali and would support even more laws. However I don't really think in these kinds of situations they would make a difference.
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spartana

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #625 on: Today at 09:40:20 AM »
Don't know if was mentioned yet but NorCal shooter had 2 rifles he illegally made himself and 2 there were not registered to him. He was banned from owning any firearms.

So why doesn't this happen in other countries?  Surely there are crazy people that can do this there too?

Sorry, but I really think there is a serious root cause flaw in this country around guns and not addressing it after mass killings and heinous events is just turning a blind eye to the fact it will happen again.
I don't think anyone is saying to turn a blind eye to these things or the weapons used (I'm sure in other countries they discuss what they can do to limit bombings and vehicular mass killings) but I think that we focus too much on the weapons at the expenses of the persons mental illness.
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shenlong55

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #626 on: Today at 10:20:50 AM »
Not necessarily if he obtained those guns illegally (stolen) or were lent to him by a family member or friend (San Bernardino mass shooters, Sandy Hook,,etc...) who legally owned them. Caif has some of toughest gun laws in the country and have pretty  much all the restrictions many in this thread have asked for. So not sure what other restrictions can be applied or enforced that would limit these kinds of things. I'm pro gun ownership and pro gun laws and am fine with our laws in Cali and would support even more laws. However I don't really think in these kinds of situations they would make a difference.

Do you think that those family members/friends would have still given/lent the guns to them if they could be held legally responsible for the outcome of their actions?

Johnez

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #627 on: Today at 10:36:59 AM »
I'd also like to point out that the school was spared the horrific tragedy of dozens of dead children by locking down. Not more guns.

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #628 on: Today at 11:38:52 AM »
Don't know if was mentioned yet but NorCal shooter had 2 rifles he illegally made himself and 2 there were not registered to him. He was banned from owning any firearms.

So why doesn't this happen in other countries?  Surely there are crazy people that can do this there too?

Sorry, but I really think there is a serious root cause flaw in this country around guns and not addressing it after mass killings and heinous events is just turning a blind eye to the fact it will happen again.
I don't think anyone is saying to turn a blind eye to these things or the weapons used (I'm sure in other countries they discuss what they can do to limit bombings and vehicular mass killings) but I think that we focus too much on the weapons at the expenses of the persons mental illness.

You say this . . . yet your previous post focused entirely on the weapons used and his legal status of owning weapons rather than discussing anything at all about mental illness.

spartana

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #629 on: Today at 11:46:33 AM »
Not necessarily if he obtained those guns illegally (stolen) or were lent to him by a family member or friend (San Bernardino mass shooters, Sandy Hook,,etc...) who legally owned them. Caif has some of toughest gun laws in the country and have pretty  much all the restrictions many in this thread have asked for. So not sure what other restrictions can be applied or enforced that would limit these kinds of things. I'm pro gun ownership and pro gun laws and am fine with our laws in Cali and would support even more laws. However I don't really think in these kinds of situations they would make a difference.

Do you think that those family members/friends would have still given/lent the guns to them if they could be held legally responsible for the outcome of their actions?
If they assumed that the person borrowing them would be using them in an appropriate manner I don't think it would be a deterrent because, at least here, that's already illegal and punishable (the guy who owned the weapons used in the San Bernardino shooting is in prison). In the Adam Lanza case it would have been labelled as stolen guns (and illegal) since they were in.a locked safe rather than given to him.

For what its worth I don't know what sololutions there are as so many laws are almost impossible to enforce at the theft and lending level. Short of Smart guns (something most gun owners who have them for self protection are highly resistant too for valid reasons) or complete banning most gun laws can be circumvented by anyone determined to do so. I think the US is perhaps a more inclined to violence overall compared to many other countries at all levels  too.
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spartana

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #630 on: Today at 11:52:37 AM »
Don't know if was mentioned yet but NorCal shooter had 2 rifles he illegally made himself and 2 there were not registered to him. He was banned from owning any firearms.

So why doesn't this happen in other countries?  Surely there are crazy people that can do this there too?

Sorry, but I really think there is a serious root cause flaw in this country around guns and not addressing it after mass killings and heinous events is just turning a blind eye to the fact it will happen again.
I don't think anyone is saying to turn a blind eye to these things or the weapons used (I'm sure in other countries they discuss what they can do to limit bombings and vehicular mass killings) but I think that we focus too much on the weapons at the expenses of the persons mental illness.

You say this . . . yet your previous post focused entirely on the weapons used and his legal status of owning weapons rather than discussing anything at all about mental illness.
I was just putting out new relevant info not making any kind of statement. But yes I think its important to address ALL the issues around ANY kind of violent acts. Mental health, disgruntled with society, terrorist beliefs, access to weapons, ability to produce weapons or weaponize things that we use in day to day life, etc... Just saying that when we put so much emphasis on the weapon we fail to address the other (perhaps more important) root causes that lead to.violent acts.
« Last Edit: Today at 11:55:08 AM by spartana »
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