Author Topic: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.  (Read 55843 times)

golden1

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #450 on: October 25, 2017, 01:54:15 PM »
I am very pleased that so many of you are willing to sacrifice other peoples families and loved ones in order to maximize their own freedom.

I wonder how many of them would sacrifice their own children or parents as well? 


ooeei

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #451 on: October 25, 2017, 02:34:12 PM »
I am very pleased that so many of you are willing to sacrifice other peoples families and loved ones in order to maximize their own freedom.

I wonder how many of them would sacrifice their own children or parents as well?

I know right? Making sugar and driving over 20mph illegal is a no brainer.

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #452 on: October 25, 2017, 03:31:07 PM »
Hello, I'm coming at this from a different angle. I consider myself part of the "Maker" movement. One of the goals of the movement is to increase the common people's access to industrial manufacturing equipment.

So, the scenario I am dealing with is: what is stopping a someone from going on the dark web, getting schematics, going to the local Makerspace and building a gun?

Just throwing some stuff out there.

TexasRunner

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #453 on: October 25, 2017, 03:40:43 PM »
So, the scenario I am dealing with is: what is stopping a someone from going on the dark web, getting schematics, going to the local Makerspace and building a gun?

Its already illegal and no, there is nothing actually stopping people from doing it.

Just like pretty much all other gun laws...

dandarc

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #454 on: October 25, 2017, 03:47:39 PM »
So, the scenario I am dealing with is: what is stopping a someone from going on the dark web, getting schematics, going to the local Makerspace and building a gun?

Its already illegal and no, there is nothing actually stopping people from doing it.

Just like pretty much all other gun laws...
Not just gun laws - all laws.

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #455 on: October 25, 2017, 04:03:20 PM »
So, the scenario I am dealing with is: what is stopping a someone from going on the dark web, getting schematics, going to the local Makerspace and building a gun?

Its already illegal and no, there is nothing actually stopping people from doing it.

Just like pretty much all other gun laws...

It's illegal to build your own gun?

robartsd

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #456 on: October 25, 2017, 04:21:11 PM »
It's illegal to build your own gun?
It is not illegal to make a gun that you would be allowed to buy. I live in California. My brother lives here too. He follows gun laws and has researched the legality of making his own gun. Currently you are required to get a serial number for your homemade gun from a government agency (a recent change).

former player

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #457 on: October 25, 2017, 08:57:39 PM »

Milkshake

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #458 on: October 26, 2017, 07:59:42 AM »
It's illegal to build your own gun?
It is not illegal to make a gun that you would be allowed to buy. I live in California. My brother lives here too. He follows gun laws and has researched the legality of making his own gun. Currently you are required to get a serial number for your homemade gun from a government agency (a recent change).
How recent is this change? As of 2015, "Under US federal law, transferring a ghost gun is a felony but owning one is allowed, assuming that no other impediments exists.[1] ATF officials characterize this as a loophole."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_gun   Legality Section.

A ghost gun is a gun with no traceability like serial numbers.

GuitarStv

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #459 on: October 26, 2017, 08:26:28 AM »
So, the scenario I am dealing with is: what is stopping a someone from going on the dark web, getting schematics, going to the local Makerspace and building a gun?

Its already illegal and no, there is nothing actually stopping people from doing it.

Just like pretty much all other gun laws...

It's illegal to build your own gun?

Is it illegal to build your own land mine?

robartsd

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #460 on: October 26, 2017, 09:40:43 AM »
It is not illegal to make a gun that you would be allowed to buy. I live in California. My brother lives here too. He follows gun laws and has researched the legality of making his own gun. Currently you are required to get a serial number for your homemade gun from a government agency (a recent change).
How recent is this change? As of 2015, "Under US federal law, transferring a ghost gun is a felony but owning one is allowed, assuming that no other impediments exists.[1] ATF officials characterize this as a loophole."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_gun   Legality Section.

A ghost gun is a gun with no traceability like serial numbers.
I'm sure it was within the past couple of years; I think it was more recent than 2015, but I'm not sure. I believe before the change you were allowed to assign your own serial number to the gun rather than having to get one from the government. Prior to the change it was legal to make your own gun and not be required to report it to anyone, now you are legally required to obtain a government issued serial number which creates a record of the gun's existance.

ooeei

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #461 on: October 26, 2017, 09:47:47 AM »
It is not illegal to make a gun that you would be allowed to buy. I live in California. My brother lives here too. He follows gun laws and has researched the legality of making his own gun. Currently you are required to get a serial number for your homemade gun from a government agency (a recent change).
How recent is this change? As of 2015, "Under US federal law, transferring a ghost gun is a felony but owning one is allowed, assuming that no other impediments exists.[1] ATF officials characterize this as a loophole."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_gun   Legality Section.

A ghost gun is a gun with no traceability like serial numbers.
I'm sure it was within the past couple of years; I think it was more recent than 2015, but I'm not sure. I believe before the change you were allowed to assign your own serial number to the gun rather than having to get one from the government. Prior to the change it was legal to make your own gun and not be required to report it to anyone, now you are legally required to obtain a government issued serial number which creates a record of the gun's existance.

Quote
In 2014, California attempted to enact a law to require serial numbers on unfinished receivers and all other firearms, including antique guns,[16] but it was vetoed by the governor.[17] However, in 2016, it passed a measure requiring anyone planning to build a homemade firearm to obtain a serial number from the state (de facto registration) and pass a background check.[18]

It appears to be a California law, not federal, and was passed last year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_gun

Just Joe

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #462 on: October 26, 2017, 10:00:24 AM »
Hello, I'm coming at this from a different angle. I consider myself part of the "Maker" movement. One of the goals of the movement is to increase the common people's access to industrial manufacturing equipment.

So, the scenario I am dealing with is: what is stopping a someone from going on the dark web, getting schematics, going to the local Makerspace and building a gun?

Just throwing some stuff out there.

You mean like this:

https://grabcad.com/library?utf8=✓&query=ar15

Add this for $20K and you're in business:

https://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=catshow&ref=PCNC1100&portrelay=1

Scary huh? That's why regulations for guns won't be nearly as effective as they could have been 50 years ago. Its easy to get all the info and tools.

We're going to need a cultural shift to people who aren't so paranoid or pissed off at their fellow man. Subdue our fascination with guns and conflict some more.

I have no idea how to achieve that.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 10:04:10 AM by Just Joe »

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #463 on: October 26, 2017, 11:13:26 AM »
Hello, I'm coming at this from a different angle. I consider myself part of the "Maker" movement. One of the goals of the movement is to increase the common people's access to industrial manufacturing equipment.

So, the scenario I am dealing with is: what is stopping a someone from going on the dark web, getting schematics, going to the local Makerspace and building a gun?

Just throwing some stuff out there.

You mean like this:

https://grabcad.com/library?utf8=✓&query=ar15

Add this for $20K and you're in business:

https://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=catshow&ref=PCNC1100&portrelay=1

Scary huh? That's why regulations for guns won't be nearly as effective as they could have been 50 years ago. Its easy to get all the info and tools.

We're going to need a cultural shift to people who aren't so paranoid or pissed off at their fellow man. Subdue our fascination with guns and conflict some more.

I have no idea how to achieve that.

I'm not sure about scary. I see it as a trade off. Do you empower people and take the risk that some might abuse it? I think it's better to empower people.

But yes, our culture needs to be remade into something healthy.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #464 on: October 26, 2017, 02:46:21 PM »
That is just a homemade gun. Federal law basically does not regulate. Only caveat; you can't sell or give it away. I have actually thought about doing this myself; for the novelty and prohibitive cost of collecting firearms.

"Ghost gun" from what I gather is just another made up spooky term like "assault rifle."

Travis

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #465 on: October 26, 2017, 02:54:39 PM »
That is just a homemade gun. Federal law basically does not regulate. Only caveat; you can't sell or give it away. I have actually thought about doing this myself; for the novelty and prohibitive cost of collecting firearms.

"Ghost gun" from what I gather is just another made up spooky term like "assault rifle."

Assault rifle is a real term.  I have an old Army field manual from the 1970s that gives such a rifle very specific characteristics.  It's "assault weapon" that is political and extremely fluid in its meaning.  The first time I heard of "ghost gun" it was a couple years ago from Democrat Senator who held a press conference saying there are these guns out there that can beat metal detectors.  He didn't have an example, a replica, a photo, or any evidence they actually exist, but damn it we needed to be worried about them and write a law.

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #466 on: October 26, 2017, 04:38:45 PM »
Also here is Ghost Gunner, selling small CNC machines for 1,200 to machine the base of the gun.

https://ghostgunner.net

DarkandStormy

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #467 on: October 27, 2017, 06:40:26 AM »
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/sns-las-vegas-shooting-victim-death-threats-braden-matejka-story.html

Quote
Las Vegas shooting victim slammed with death threats: ‘I hope someone truly shoots you’

Just Joe

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #468 on: October 27, 2017, 07:59:30 AM »
There are some truly disturbed people out there. I don't have ANY idea why some are so damn angry all the time. If they don't like their lot in life then change it for the better. Start learning to be someone else!

I say this but remember that I run into people all the time that seem to be incapable of self-teaching themselves anything so if they are a ditch digger then always a ditch digger they'll be.

I have heard SOME reasons why they are angry but none of the reasons I've heard are worth the anger and stress and the time it takes away from life.

Anyone know what the laws are on making PARTS of a gun? Would be easy for someone so politically inclined to setup a little "quilting circle" of gun manufacturing. This one makes the barrel, that one makes the receiver, etc.

I have no interest having anything to do with this sort of thing - but regulating the gun will never get any easier in this country because the tools available to the average person continue to improve and the cost comes down. Too many one man shops out there so if a person was angry about the government and so motivated...

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #469 on: October 27, 2017, 08:42:26 AM »
There are some truly disturbed people out there. I don't have ANY idea why some are so damn angry all the time. If they don't like their lot in life then change it for the better. Start learning to be someone else!

I say this but remember that I run into people all the time that seem to be incapable of self-teaching themselves anything so if they are a ditch digger then always a ditch digger they'll be.

I have heard SOME reasons why they are angry but none of the reasons I've heard are worth the anger and stress and the time it takes away from life.

Anyone know what the laws are on making PARTS of a gun? Would be easy for someone so politically inclined to setup a little "quilting circle" of gun manufacturing. This one makes the barrel, that one makes the receiver, etc.

I have no interest having anything to do with this sort of thing - but regulating the gun will never get any easier in this country because the tools available to the average person continue to improve and the cost comes down. Too many one man shops out there so if a person was angry about the government and so motivated...

This guy gets it.

ooeei

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #470 on: October 27, 2017, 08:44:35 AM »
There are some truly disturbed people out there. I don't have ANY idea why some are so damn angry all the time. If they don't like their lot in life then change it for the better. Start learning to be someone else!

I say this but remember that I run into people all the time that seem to be incapable of self-teaching themselves anything so if they are a ditch digger then always a ditch digger they'll be.

I have heard SOME reasons why they are angry but none of the reasons I've heard are worth the anger and stress and the time it takes away from life.

Anyone know what the laws are on making PARTS of a gun? Would be easy for someone so politically inclined to setup a little "quilting circle" of gun manufacturing. This one makes the barrel, that one makes the receiver, etc.

I have no interest having anything to do with this sort of thing - but regulating the gun will never get any easier in this country because the tools available to the average person continue to improve and the cost comes down. Too many one man shops out there so if a person was angry about the government and so motivated...

Generally parts are just parts, although you can get busted with "intent to manufacture" in specific circumstances. For example, if you have an AR-15 lower without a tax stamp (making short barreled rifles illegal), and you have a short barreled upper in your house, you can get busted for having an illegal gun even though it wasn't actually assembled. If you have a long barreled upper you may be able to argue that it was for a future build and you planned on getting a stamp, but "parts" aren't a get out of jail free card. Granted you can order that short barreled upper no problem, it's just if you get caught with it.

The actual thing that's considered the "gun" and requires background checks and special shipping is the receiver, or the place that has the serial number. On some new pistols they've moved it to be a "trigger housing" so you can change frames easily as well. Anything except that part you can have mailed to your house with no background checks.

There are also "80% receivers" that are partially machined, but aren't usable yet so aren't classified as a gun. You use a drill press and maybe a hydraulic press to finish it out, and as far as the law is concerned it's the same as you milling it all out from scratch. No registration required. If you're a prohibited person and get caught with it you'll still be in trouble, but there's no system stopping you from buying it.

edit: And before anyone comments on how parts should be background checked as well, there's a reason they aren't.  In an AR-15 there are approximately 200 parts, many of which aren't exclusive to the firearm. Requiring a background check for a $2 roll pin, or even a $20 trigger would be incredibly hard not only to enforce, but places very significant restrictions on people who are upgrading, repairing, or modifying their firearms. You could try to narrow it down to "critical" parts, but then you have hundreds of gun designs to consider, and the sheer volume of background checks needed for that is enormous, not to mention the additional cost on relatively cheap parts.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 08:48:27 AM by ooeei »

Just Joe

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #471 on: October 27, 2017, 10:40:18 AM »
The regulations concerning these things sounds like it would take a bookcase of law books to define.

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #472 on: October 27, 2017, 04:15:22 PM »
There are 9 pages on this thread. Were you people just going back and forth over civil rights and no one asked about building a gun?

Travis

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #473 on: October 27, 2017, 06:37:10 PM »
There are 9 pages on this thread. Were you people just going back and forth over civil rights and no one asked about building a gun?

Not everybody knows that it is possible. Up until 3-D printers went mainstream it really wasn't a thing.

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #474 on: October 27, 2017, 09:02:59 PM »
There are 9 pages on this thread. Were you people just going back and forth over civil rights and no one asked about building a gun?

Not everybody knows that it is possible. Up until 3-D printers went mainstream it really wasn't a thing.

There isn't a machinist or gunsmith on this forum? That may be where our culture went wrong. We're too overspecialized. We don't understand each other because our experiences are so different. Every job looks easy until you actually have to do it.

Just Joe

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #475 on: October 28, 2017, 03:18:41 PM »
Sure. I'm a machinist, engineer and know the necessary equipment well for making guns.

I have very little interest in gun making though.

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #476 on: October 29, 2017, 10:10:19 AM »
Sure. I'm a machinist, engineer and know the necessary equipment well for making guns.

I have very little interest in gun making though.

You made an excellent point above. But good to hear.

I was just surprised that the Mr Money Mustache forum, dedicated to DIY and counter culture, nobody pointed out that guns could be built.

Now I wonder if this thread was dying or we legitimately gave gun control advocates something to mull over.

Seems to me that we would have to drastically change the American system if we wanted to prevent shootings by seizing the means of production and instituting draconian punishments.

And even that won't be enough because human ingenuity is infinite and will overcome any obstacle.

GuitarStv

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #477 on: October 30, 2017, 07:37:14 AM »
It's legal to build your own car.  It's illegal to use that car unless it meets specific regulations and is inspected for road worthiness (typically emissions and safety regulations).  If you choose to drive your home built car without following the law then you'll be punished.  The fact that you can make something on your own certainly doesn't preclude the need for regulation of that item.

Again, I don't think that anyone has proposed 'seizing the means of production'.

Dabnasty

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #478 on: October 30, 2017, 07:41:29 AM »
Sure. I'm a machinist, engineer and know the necessary equipment well for making guns.

I have very little interest in gun making though.

You made an excellent point above. But good to hear.

I was just surprised that the Mr Money Mustache forum, dedicated to DIY and counter culture, nobody pointed out that guns could be built.

Now I wonder if this thread was dying or we legitimately gave gun control advocates something to mull over.

Seems to me that we would have to drastically change the American system if we wanted to prevent shootings by seizing the means of production and instituting draconian punishments.

And even that won't be enough because human ingenuity is infinite and will overcome any obstacle.
While building guns would be a way around gun restrictions, it would not completely nullify them. I'm not making an argument here that certain gun laws would or would not reduce the number of guns in the wrong hands, but at least in theory the restrictions would reduce the number of guns out there while very determined people would still find a way to obtain them.

Similar to the nutrition restrictions discussed earlier, if there were restrictions on nutritional content people could just order 2 so it wouldn't force people to be healthier, but it would give them a little push. Obviously the day to day decision of what to eat and deciding to murder is very different, but similar principles apply. When you look at the whole population, at least some of the bad decisions (whether it's killing someone or eating too many fries) are influenced by what's available and how easy it is to obtain.

Milkshake

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #479 on: October 30, 2017, 11:17:41 AM »
The argument that "SOMEONE could do something to get around regulations" is not a valid argument for no regulations. Someone could choose to drink and drive and kill someone. Should we then say that drunk driving shouldn't be illegal? Or that .08 BAC should be 1.8? No.

Just because someone can and will build their own gun, doesn't mean we shouldn't regulate guns.

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #480 on: October 30, 2017, 11:24:37 AM »
It's legal to build your own car.  It's illegal to use that car unless it meets specific regulations and is inspected for road worthiness (typically emissions and safety regulations).  If you choose to drive your home built car without following the law then you'll be punished.  The fact that you can make something on your own certainly doesn't preclude the need for regulation of that item.

Again, I don't think that anyone has proposed 'seizing the means of production'.

If it reached the point where we had banned all guns by law and we still had mass shootings, what would be the next logical step?

I'm not advocating seizing the means of production. It would be impossible. Cops would be rummaging around people's barns and basements and still never find all the tools.

Laws seem to try and prevent the last tragedy and never looks forward to the next.

The argument that "SOMEONE could do something to get around regulations" is not a valid argument for no regulations. Someone could choose to drink and drive and kill someone. Should we then say that drunk driving shouldn't be illegal? Or that .08 BAC should be 1.8? No.

Just because someone can and will build their own gun, doesn't mean we shouldn't regulate guns.

If laws are ineffective then we need to rethink them. See if there is a better way of doing them.

GuitarStv

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #481 on: October 30, 2017, 12:27:22 PM »
It's legal to build your own car.  It's illegal to use that car unless it meets specific regulations and is inspected for road worthiness (typically emissions and safety regulations).  If you choose to drive your home built car without following the law then you'll be punished.  The fact that you can make something on your own certainly doesn't preclude the need for regulation of that item.

Again, I don't think that anyone has proposed 'seizing the means of production'.

If it reached the point where we had banned all guns by law and we still had mass shootings, what would be the next logical step?

We haven't reached the point where all guns are banned by law.  It's not something that the majority of people advocating for gun control even want.


I'm not advocating seizing the means of production. It would be impossible. Cops would be rummaging around people's barns and basements and still never find all the tools.

Yep.  But nobody in this thread is advocating for it.  So why did you bring it up?


Laws seem to try and prevent the last tragedy and never looks forward to the next.

Well, yeah.  It's impossible to account for every possible future scenario and a waste of time to try.  It would create reams of oppressive law and legislation that is likely to misunderstand problems (as it's being written well before things become a problem in an attempt to proactively solve them).  We currently react to problems as they arise and try to come up with the most sensible solutions given the available facts.

What you're proposing sounds good in theory, but I suspect it would be a nightmare to live under.

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #482 on: October 30, 2017, 03:51:32 PM »
It's legal to build your own car.  It's illegal to use that car unless it meets specific regulations and is inspected for road worthiness (typically emissions and safety regulations).  If you choose to drive your home built car without following the law then you'll be punished.  The fact that you can make something on your own certainly doesn't preclude the need for regulation of that item.

Again, I don't think that anyone has proposed 'seizing the means of production'.

If it reached the point where we had banned all guns by law and we still had mass shootings, what would be the next logical step?

We haven't reached the point where all guns are banned by law.  It's not something that the majority of people advocating for gun control even want.


I'm not advocating seizing the means of production. It would be impossible. Cops would be rummaging around people's barns and basements and still never find all the tools.

Yep.  But nobody in this thread is advocating for it.  So why did you bring it up?


Laws seem to try and prevent the last tragedy and never looks forward to the next.

Well, yeah.  It's impossible to account for every possible future scenario and a waste of time to try.  It would create reams of oppressive law and legislation that is likely to misunderstand problems (as it's being written well before things become a problem in an attempt to proactively solve them).  We currently react to problems as they arise and try to come up with the most sensible solutions given the available facts.

What you're proposing sounds good in theory, but I suspect it would be a nightmare to live under.

I see it as focus creep. Gun laws expanded. Mass shooting. Laws expanded. Mass shooting. Draconian laws enacted. Mass shooting. Guns banned. Mass shooting. Well hell. What do we do now? (Commence wild speculation on solutions.)

At the end of the day, I think we need to re-build our culture into something healthy. Stop trying to be famous or needing to be remembered. Rediscover what a "good life" actually is. Move beyond this culture of death and nihilism.

Just Joe

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #483 on: October 31, 2017, 07:34:53 AM »
Can you roll the clock back though? Everywhere I look in pop culture its sex and violence. How do we break the fascination people have?

Milkshake

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #484 on: October 31, 2017, 08:04:39 AM »
I see it as focus creep. Gun laws expanded. Mass shooting. Laws expanded. Mass shooting. Draconian laws enacted. Mass shooting. Guns banned. Mass shooting. Well hell. What do we do now? (Commence wild speculation on solutions.)

At the end of the day, I think we need to re-build our culture into something healthy. Stop trying to be famous or needing to be remembered. Rediscover what a "good life" actually is. Move beyond this culture of death and nihilism.
You may see it that way, but it isn't true. Drunk driving deaths still happen, and no one is concerned about banning all alcohol or cars. Yet, according to NIH, increasing both preventative (no crime committed yet) and "ex-post" (punishments for the crime) regulations reduced drunk driving fatalities.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3823314/

Where's the evidence that gun laws would cause an opposite effect?

Kris

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #485 on: October 31, 2017, 08:18:36 AM »
I see it as focus creep. Gun laws expanded. Mass shooting. Laws expanded. Mass shooting. Draconian laws enacted. Mass shooting. Guns banned. Mass shooting. Well hell. What do we do now? (Commence wild speculation on solutions.)

At the end of the day, I think we need to re-build our culture into something healthy. Stop trying to be famous or needing to be remembered. Rediscover what a "good life" actually is. Move beyond this culture of death and nihilism.
You may see it that way, but it isn't true. Drunk driving deaths still happen, and no one is concerned about banning all alcohol or cars. Yet, according to NIH, increasing both preventative (no crime committed yet) and "ex-post" (punishments for the crime) regulations reduced drunk driving fatalities.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3823314/

Where's the evidence that gun laws would cause an opposite effect?

No evidence. Just a straight old "slippery slope" logical fallacy and appeal to emotions.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

GuitarStv

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #486 on: October 31, 2017, 08:19:58 AM »
I see it as focus creep. Gun laws expanded. Mass shooting. Laws expanded. Mass shooting. Draconian laws enacted. Mass shooting. Guns banned. Mass shooting. Well hell. What do we do now? (Commence wild speculation on solutions.)

At the end of the day, I think we need to re-build our culture into something healthy. Stop trying to be famous or needing to be remembered. Rediscover what a "good life" actually is. Move beyond this culture of death and nihilism.
You may see it that way, but it isn't true. Drunk driving deaths still happen, and no one is concerned about banning all alcohol or cars. Yet, according to NIH, increasing both preventative (no crime committed yet) and "ex-post" (punishments for the crime) regulations reduced drunk driving fatalities.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3823314/

Where's the evidence that gun laws would cause an opposite effect?

The NRA has acted to block any government funding of research regarding firearms in the US.  To be fair, hat question isn't really answerable at this time with the information available.

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #487 on: October 31, 2017, 08:45:40 AM »
Can you roll the clock back though? Everywhere I look in pop culture its sex and violence. How do we break the fascination people have?

Well, to start we fund Planned Parenthood. Hit the brakes on population growth. Give people some control over their lives.

Next educate people how money works. Freakonomics found a study that 70% of Americans are financially illiterate. I take that as meaning no amount of help will be enough for some.

I believe if we give people the chance to create things, they will. Find positive outlets for their energy.

Above all be an example of a happy, healthy life because you have discipline and limit your intake of pop culture.

Not everyone will take these suggestions but maybe we could get the bulk of people to be better.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #488 on: October 31, 2017, 08:59:59 AM »
Can you roll the clock back though? Everywhere I look in pop culture its sex and violence. How do we break the fascination people have?

Well, to start we fund Planned Parenthood. Hit the brakes on population growth. Give people some control over their lives.

Next educate people how money works. Freakonomics found a study that 70% of Americans are financially illiterate. I take that as meaning no amount of help will be enough for some.

I believe if we give people the chance to create things, they will. Find positive outlets for their energy.

Above all be an example of a happy, healthy life because you have discipline and limit your intake of pop culture.

Not everyone will take these suggestions but maybe we could get the bulk of people to be better.

Enjoying a nice Saturday of making your next rifle instead of getting angry about politics or something in the culture you don't like ;)

ooeei

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #489 on: October 31, 2017, 09:46:20 AM »
I see it as focus creep. Gun laws expanded. Mass shooting. Laws expanded. Mass shooting. Draconian laws enacted. Mass shooting. Guns banned. Mass shooting. Well hell. What do we do now? (Commence wild speculation on solutions.)

At the end of the day, I think we need to re-build our culture into something healthy. Stop trying to be famous or needing to be remembered. Rediscover what a "good life" actually is. Move beyond this culture of death and nihilism.
You may see it that way, but it isn't true. Drunk driving deaths still happen, and no one is concerned about banning all alcohol or cars. Yet, according to NIH, increasing both preventative (no crime committed yet) and "ex-post" (punishments for the crime) regulations reduced drunk driving fatalities.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3823314/

Where's the evidence that gun laws would cause an opposite effect?

The NRA has acted to block any government funding of research regarding firearms in the US.  To be fair, hat question isn't really answerable at this time with the information available.

I would like to point out that research has not been blocked, using research funds to advocate for gun control has. This "block" was passed by congress. The reason they don't do as much research as they used to is because a good portion of the people doing it at the time said things like:

Quote
"This research is designed to, and is used to, promote a campaign to reduce lawful firearms ownership in America"

In 1979 the American public health community adopted the "objective to reduce the number
of handguns in private ownership," the initial target being a 25% reduction by the year 2000.

In a 1989 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, Centers for Disease Control (CDC) official Patrick O’Carroll, MD stated “We’re going to systematically build a case that owning firearms causes deaths.  We’re doing the most we can do, given the political realities.”

Well, of course. Rosenberg is director of the National Center for Injury Prevention, a division of the National Centers for Disease Control, and the infectious-disease approach may be the only tool he has. "We need to revolutionize the way we look at guns, like what we did with cigarettes. It used to be that smoking was a glamour symbol -- cool, sexy, macho. Now it is dirty, deadly -- and banned." Rosenberg's thought is that if we could transform public attitudes toward guns the way we have transformed public attitudes toward cigarettes, we'd go a long way toward curbing our national epidemic of violence.

“Guns are a virus that must be eradicated.”—Dr. Katherine Christoffel, pediatrician, in American Medical News, January 3, 1994. In the 1990s Dr. Christoffel was the leader of the now-defunct HELP Network, a Chicago-based association of major medical organizations and grant seekers advancing gun control in the medical media. The name HELP was an acronym for Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan.

“Data on [assault weapons’] risks are not needed, because they have no redeeming social value.—Jerome Kassirer, M.D., former editor, New England Journal of Medicine, writing in vol. 326, no. 17, page 1161 (April 23, 1992).

“I hate guns and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to own one. If I had my way, guns for sport would be registered, and all other guns would be banned.”—Assistant Dean Deborah Prothrow-Stith, M.D., Harvard School of Public Health in her book Deadly Consequences.

Someone having opinions on things is fine, but people in charge of organizations that are supposed to be doing proper scientific research coming out with this sort of bias is ridiculous. This is constantly painted as a "The NRA are just afraid of what the research will find!" situation, when that's not true at all. It's like if someone in charge of research on racial violence went on a rant about how they're sure it's because minorities are stupid because of their inferior genetics. Would you trust them to do unbiased research after saying something like that?

Here's a CDC study from 2015 on gun violence in Delaware.  http://dhss.delaware.gov/dhss/dms/files/cdcgunviolencereport10315.pdf
Note how many possible solutions they come up with that have nothing to do with restricting law abiding gun owners. Pages 13-15 have their recommendations.


edit: And for anyone who remembers Obama making a big deal about this, and commissioning research personally, here is the result:

https://www.nap.edu/read/18319

I'm surprised this isn't referenced more often by gun control advocates, but maybe it's because it doesn't say that restricting gun ownership will solve the problems:

"Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies."

“Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year…in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.”

« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 10:25:32 AM by ooeei »

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #490 on: October 31, 2017, 11:03:30 AM »
Can you roll the clock back though? Everywhere I look in pop culture its sex and violence. How do we break the fascination people have?

Well, to start we fund Planned Parenthood. Hit the brakes on population growth. Give people some control over their lives.

Next educate people how money works. Freakonomics found a study that 70% of Americans are financially illiterate. I take that as meaning no amount of help will be enough for some.

I believe if we give people the chance to create things, they will. Find positive outlets for their energy.

Above all be an example of a happy, healthy life because you have discipline and limit your intake of pop culture.

Not everyone will take these suggestions but maybe we could get the bulk of people to be better.

Enjoying a nice Saturday of making your next rifle instead of getting angry about politics or something in the culture you don't like ;)

For some people it is their zen moment.

Just Joe

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #491 on: October 31, 2017, 11:48:44 AM »
Can you roll the clock back though? Everywhere I look in pop culture its sex and violence. How do we break the fascination people have?

Well, to start we fund Planned Parenthood. Hit the brakes on population growth. Give people some control over their lives.

Next educate people how money works. Freakonomics found a study that 70% of Americans are financially illiterate. I take that as meaning no amount of help will be enough for some.

I believe if we give people the chance to create things, they will. Find positive outlets for their energy.

Above all be an example of a happy, healthy life because you have discipline and limit your intake of pop culture.

Not everyone will take these suggestions but maybe we could get the bulk of people to be better.

Again - how do we make these things happen? Remember at least half of our political leadership talks like Planned Parenthood is the Gestapo. I agree with your  points however. There seems to be an active effort in our country to keep some people distracted and ignorant.

ooeei

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #492 on: October 31, 2017, 01:01:29 PM »
Can you roll the clock back though? Everywhere I look in pop culture its sex and violence. How do we break the fascination people have?

Well, to start we fund Planned Parenthood. Hit the brakes on population growth. Give people some control over their lives.

Next educate people how money works. Freakonomics found a study that 70% of Americans are financially illiterate. I take that as meaning no amount of help will be enough for some.

I believe if we give people the chance to create things, they will. Find positive outlets for their energy.

Above all be an example of a happy, healthy life because you have discipline and limit your intake of pop culture.

Not everyone will take these suggestions but maybe we could get the bulk of people to be better.

Again - how do we make these things happen? Remember at least half of our political leadership talks like Planned Parenthood is the Gestapo. I agree with your  points however. There seems to be an active effort in our country to keep some people distracted and ignorant.

Although in reality it doesn't usually work this way, there's nothing stopping someone from supporting social programs like Planned Parenthood AND gun rights. The problem as usual is that both parties pander to the extremes of both sides. The right has to pretend planned parenthood is terrible, and the left has to pretend guns are terrible.

After recent dealings with our healthcare system, along with some research, I'm convinced national healthcare is the way to go. I'm also convinced that peoples' right to bear arms is important. Good luck ever finding a Republican willing to publicly support national healthcare, or a Democrat concerned with protecting gun rights.

Just Joe

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #493 on: October 31, 2017, 01:10:13 PM »
Yep - once again the right path is probably moderate and right down the middle. Best ideas of the whole political spectrum and not afraid to look abroad for more new ideas.

So the trick will be to moderate the extremists of all flavors. Good luck - I'm still trying to figure out a way to moderate the opinions of people I'm close to.

The best strategy of DW and I are to distract them and change the subject.

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #494 on: October 31, 2017, 03:16:20 PM »
Can you roll the clock back though? Everywhere I look in pop culture its sex and violence. How do we break the fascination people have?

Well, to start we fund Planned Parenthood. Hit the brakes on population growth. Give people some control over their lives.

Next educate people how money works. Freakonomics found a study that 70% of Americans are financially illiterate. I take that as meaning no amount of help will be enough for some.

I believe if we give people the chance to create things, they will. Find positive outlets for their energy.

Above all be an example of a happy, healthy life because you have discipline and limit your intake of pop culture.

Not everyone will take these suggestions but maybe we could get the bulk of people to be better.

Again - how do we make these things happen? Remember at least half of our political leadership talks like Planned Parenthood is the Gestapo. I agree with your  points however. There seems to be an active effort in our country to keep some people distracted and ignorant.

The best I can come up with for planned Parenthood is to privately fund it ourselves. That way it's funding is stable and it's no longer a political football.

Getting people to create would work with Makerspaces. Perhaps a class on finance in those as well?

Just Joe

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #495 on: November 01, 2017, 09:45:47 AM »
Maybe host free Saturday workshops at the local library? $5 to register and give their $5 back when they actually attend?

TexasRunner

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #496 on: November 01, 2017, 10:43:22 AM »
Long Relevant Post

Is no one going to discuss or address this?...

Prime example of continuing to live within an echo chamber.

GuitarStv

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #497 on: November 01, 2017, 10:49:38 AM »
Long Relevant Post

Is no one going to discuss or address this?...

Yes.

I didn't have time to read through the linked documents yesterday though.

gentmach

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #498 on: November 01, 2017, 11:11:46 AM »
Maybe host free Saturday workshops at the local library? $5 to register and give their $5 back when they actually attend?

Good Idea!

I forgot add "rebuild communities" to my earlier list. If people have a local support network then they don't feel isolated and alone.

GuitarStv

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Re: Las Vegas. I'm tired of this.
« Reply #499 on: November 01, 2017, 12:33:00 PM »
In 1979 the American public health community adopted the "objective to reduce the number
of handguns in private ownership," the initial target being a 25% reduction by the year 2000.

This is a direct quote from the publication "GUNS AND PUBLIC HEALTH: EPIDEMIC OF VIOLENCE OR PANDEMIC OF PROPAGANDA?"
AN HONEST LOOK AT WHY ANTI-GUN RESEARCHERS SPIN THE FACTS!"  (available here:  http://www.gunsandcrime.org/epidemic.pdf).  I find it ironic that you use a quote from an opinion piece written by gun rights activists to demonstrate that we can't trust research about guns by people who have strong opinions on the matter.  Can you explain your logic on that to me?  :P


In a 1989 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, Centers for Disease Control (CDC) official Patrick O’Carroll, MD stated “We’re going to systematically build a case that owning firearms causes deaths.  We’re doing the most we can do, given the political realities.”

Mr. O'Carroll was misquoted.


Well, of course. Rosenberg is director of the National Center for Injury Prevention, a division of the National Centers for Disease Control, and the infectious-disease approach may be the only tool he has. "We need to revolutionize the way we look at guns, like what we did with cigarettes. It used to be that smoking was a glamour symbol -- cool, sexy, macho. Now it is dirty, deadly -- and banned." Rosenberg's thought is that if we could transform public attitudes toward guns the way we have transformed public attitudes toward cigarettes, we'd go a long way toward curbing our national epidemic of violence.

I don't actually see a smoking gun (if you'll pardon the pun) here.  Cigarettes are still legal in the states and used by millions.  By using the power of advertising a reduction in smoking rates was achieved to the benefit of public health.  It feels like you're really overreaching on this one.


“Guns are a virus that must be eradicated.”—Dr. Katherine Christoffel, pediatrician, in American Medical News, January 3, 1994. In the 1990s Dr. Christoffel was the leader of the now-defunct HELP Network, a Chicago-based association of major medical organizations and grant seekers advancing gun control in the medical media. The name HELP was an acronym for Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan.

“Data on [assault weapons’] risks are not needed, because they have no redeeming social value.—Jerome Kassirer, M.D., former editor, New England Journal of Medicine, writing in vol. 326, no. 17, page 1161 (April 23, 1992).

“I hate guns and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to own one. If I had my way, guns for sport would be registered, and all other guns would be banned.”—Assistant Dean Deborah Prothrow-Stith, M.D., Harvard School of Public Health in her book Deadly Consequences.

All valid points of concern I suppose.


Someone having opinions on things is fine, but people in charge of organizations that are supposed to be doing proper scientific research coming out with this sort of bias is ridiculous. This is constantly painted as a "The NRA are just afraid of what the research will find!" situation, when that's not true at all. It's like if someone in charge of research on racial violence went on a rant about how they're sure it's because minorities are stupid because of their inferior genetics. Would you trust them to do unbiased research after saying something like that?

Sure, I'd be a little concerned.  I'd want to go over the work that they produce carefully.  But you're contending that the personal opinions held/expressed by any of these people prevented them from doing valid work.  Given this, are you equally concerned about religious people who work in science?  Science is dependent upon observing phenomenon and finding the theory that best fits the available facts.  Belief in God is absent proof, and therefore a denial of reason.  By your own logic, all religious scientists should have funding removed and the field should be dominated by agnostics.



Here's a CDC study from 2015 on gun violence in Delaware.  http://dhss.delaware.gov/dhss/dms/files/cdcgunviolencereport10315.pdf
Note how many possible solutions they come up with that have nothing to do with restricting law abiding gun owners. Pages 13-15 have their recommendations.

I'm on board with the recommendations given in this study.  They seem sensible.  That said, they have nothing to do with "restricting law abiding gun owners" because that option was not considered at any point in the study, not because of any reasoned or justified problem with implementing restrictions.



edit: And for anyone who remembers Obama making a big deal about this, and commissioning research personally, here is the result:

https://www.nap.edu/read/18319

I'm surprised this isn't referenced more often by gun control advocates, but maybe it's because it doesn't say that restricting gun ownership will solve the problems:

"Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies."

“Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year…in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.”

The quote in full:

Quote
Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004). Effectiveness of defensive tactics, however, is likely to vary across types of victims, types of offenders, and circumstances of the crime, so further research is needed both to explore these contingencies and to confirm or discount earlier findings.
Even when defensive use of guns is effective in averting death or injury for the gun user in cases of crime, it is still possible that keeping a gun in the home or carrying a gun in public—concealed or open carry—may have a different net effect on the rate of injury. For example, if gun ownership raises the risk of suicide, homicide, or the use of weapons by those who invade the homes of gun owners, this could cancel or outweigh the beneficial effects of defensive gun use (Kellermann et al., 1992, 1993, 1995). Although some early studies were published that relate to this issue, they were not conclusive, and this is a sufficiently important question that it merits additional, careful exploration.


Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a small piece of the larger puzzle, and absolutely should be part of the discussion regarding a path forward to take involving guns.