Author Topic: Israel vs Iran  (Read 2985 times)

Ron Scott

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2025, 10:19:08 AM »
Israel certainly seems to have its problems, political problems for sure. But in comparison to Iran’s leadership’s constant poor behavior (tantrum chants to destroy The West and America while developing nukes, doubling down on manufacturing drones for Putin to kill Ukrainians, social suppression of its own population in ways that would cause all of us to revolt against our own governments) I have to see them as a real threat that must be stopped.

Do those of you who criticize Israel hope to see Iran’s leadership prevail?

The US overthrew the democratically elected Iranian government in the 50s in order to install a king who the people didn't want but was friendly to US oil interests.  Over the years the Shah's regime grew increasingly authoritarian to the people of Iran, using secret police to torture and murder those who spoke out against or protested the government - culminating in the eventual overthrow of that dictator and then instituting the current (in my view possibly worse) religious extremist dictatorship.  Given this history, the 'tantrum' chants to destroy the West and America makes a lot more sense.  Developing nukes also makes sense - they don't want America to take away their freedom by force again.

Do I hope Iran's leadership prevails?  No!  I don't like their support of terror organizations.  I don't like the general human rights issues that go on in Iran.  Generally I think that the rule of the Ayatollahs has been negative for Iran.  That said, it's the government that they have.  Israel's current policy of bombing it's enemies until there's peace seems unlikely to work.  I think that Trump in his first term as president pulling out of the US/Iran nuclear treaty that Iran was complying with was a huge mistake.  It showed that the US can't be trusted.  Then Israel bombing Iran while negotiations with the US are going on further showed that the US can't be trusted.  The peaceful path out of this problem is negotiation and strengthening of bonds - something that will be difficult with Trump (the great liar and promise breaker) and Netanyahu (a political opportunist war-monger who seems to always advocate for a shoot first ask questions later policy).

The problem with Iran's government is that they show no care for civilian life and there is a lot of religiously motivated hate in their actions.  For a long time I've been told that Israel is the adult in the room, the example of sane leadership in the region.  When Israel shows no care for civilian life and a lot of religiously motivated hate in their actions, it is something to be concerned about and shows a need to rethink assumptions - so yeah, seems sensible to be critical.  The criticism isn't in hoping that Israel falls to it's enemies . . . but hope that they return to a less evil/genocidal path as a country.  I want them to live up to what I've been told they are.

We pretty much agree.

I hope for a new, stable government in Iran that stops threatening the US and Israel while actively developing nukes, an intact Ukraine, the end of Putin’ horrible regime, a more competent/less aggressive China with a more democratic/capitalist approach to government, an end to Trump and Yahoo.

While I find a lot to criticize with the US I think the non-totalitarian world is better off with us than the alternatives. A US that engages and negotiates with the world without resorting to unnecessary aggression is a good thing IMO.

I tend to look at options and relativities and try not to resort to whataboutisms in the process.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2025, 10:27:06 AM by Ron Scott »

FINate

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2025, 10:51:45 AM »
Keep in mind that most Iranians are very secular. The groups that overthrew the Shah were mostly secular too, but the religious fanatic element managed to take over in the end. So yes, it's a religious conflict - but if the 10% of Iranians who are zealots lose power, the rest of the country isn't interested in the conflict in that sense (they may be pissed enough from all the Israeli bombings that they're not super happy with Israel either, of course).

As "religious war" gets thrown about in this thread, it's also worth noting that Islam is not a monolithic religion. This is not as simple as religion vs. secularism. Most of Iran's Muslim neighbors have chosen a different path, one of peaceful economic development and diversification. So while this conflict is indeed motivated by religious ideology (Zionism included), it's clear that the old saying about all religions being essentially the same is BS. Whether it's militant Islam or Christian Nationalism, what an ideology teaches about violence and power really matters.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2025, 10:56:10 AM »
While I find a lot to criticize with the US I think the non-totalitarian world is better off with us than the alternatives. A US that engages and negotiates with the world without resorting to unnecessary aggression is a good thing IMO.

Engaging and negotiating is great.  I feel like many from your country don't recognize the tremendous amount of destabilization that the CIA has done in your name around the world and how it has shaped many of the tragedies and problems that exist today.

It would be a very different world if the US hadn't ended democracy in Iran and pushed the country down the path of authoritarianism to secure oil rights.  There are many in South America who were demonstrably worse off economically and democratically after CIA led coups took the governments of Ecuador (1963), Brazil (1964), Chile (1964/73), Bolivia (1964), and Panama (1981) - https://www.cato.org/research-briefs-economic-policy/consequences-cia-sponsored-regime-change-latin-america#.  Or the overthrow of the democratically elected government in Haiti (1991) and current day support of corrupt human rights abuser Jovenel Moïse.  Or the 2009 CIA backed coup in Honduras to overthrow democratically elected Manuel Zelaya.

The US has historically been a force of economic prosperity for Americans.  The rest of the world has benefited  .  . . . when aligned with US interests.  It will be interesting to see what the effect of Trump dismantling the US government has on future foreign policy and interventions around the world as China takes over the role the US once held as a world leader.



Keep in mind that most Iranians are very secular. The groups that overthrew the Shah were mostly secular too, but the religious fanatic element managed to take over in the end. So yes, it's a religious conflict - but if the 10% of Iranians who are zealots lose power, the rest of the country isn't interested in the conflict in that sense (they may be pissed enough from all the Israeli bombings that they're not super happy with Israel either, of course).

As "religious war" gets thrown about in this thread, it's also worth noting that Islam is not a monolithic religion. This is not as simple as religion vs. secularism. Most of Iran's Muslim neighbors have chosen a different path, one of peaceful economic development and diversification. So while this conflict is indeed motivated by religious ideology (Zionism included), it's clear that the old saying about all religions being essentially the same is BS. Whether it's militant Islam or Christian Nationalism, what an ideology teaches about violence and power really matters.

Religion tends to be deliberately vague.  This lets it adapt to changes over time - it becomes a Rorschach test of the people who choose to follow it.  Two people can read the same religious tome and come away with completely different interpretations.  People reading it in different ages come away with completely different ideas of what their God was saying (just look at how Christianity has been used to both justify and outlaw slavery for example).  It's not so much the ideology as the view of the current practitioners of the ideology that becomes important.

FINate

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2025, 11:40:47 AM »
Keep in mind that most Iranians are very secular. The groups that overthrew the Shah were mostly secular too, but the religious fanatic element managed to take over in the end. So yes, it's a religious conflict - but if the 10% of Iranians who are zealots lose power, the rest of the country isn't interested in the conflict in that sense (they may be pissed enough from all the Israeli bombings that they're not super happy with Israel either, of course).

As "religious war" gets thrown about in this thread, it's also worth noting that Islam is not a monolithic religion. This is not as simple as religion vs. secularism. Most of Iran's Muslim neighbors have chosen a different path, one of peaceful economic development and diversification. So while this conflict is indeed motivated by religious ideology (Zionism included), it's clear that the old saying about all religions being essentially the same is BS. Whether it's militant Islam or Christian Nationalism, what an ideology teaches about violence and power really matters.

Religion tends to be deliberately vague.  This lets it adapt to changes over time - it becomes a Rorschach test of the people who choose to follow it.  Two people can read the same religious tome and come away with completely different interpretations.  People reading it in different ages come away with completely different ideas of what their God was saying (just look at how Christianity has been used to both justify and outlaw slavery for example).  It's not so much the ideology as the view of the current practitioners of the ideology that becomes important.

Religion is vague because it's deeply complex. It cannot be reduced to simply theism vs. atheism or obvious ritual practices. Pull on the "what is religion" thread long enough and you essentially get to it being what one thinks the purpose of life is. In other words, what's the bigger story one is living in. So I agree 100% that it's vague, but I would also add it's bigger than just if or where someone goes to worship. A secular hedonist (to be clear, I'm not disparaging, just using as an example) has all the hallmarks of religious devotion to what they believe to be the purpose of their life, from how they spend their money, the experiences they seek, and even ongoing rituals like how the weekend is used.

I agree that the Rorschach test is a good analogy. Anyone that's gone to seminary knows there's a lot of focus on hermeneutics, i.e. the lens with which one reads scripture. You can arrive at any number of predetermined conclusions depending on what agendas you bring. Christianity is understood as an embodied historical faith, so I think reading all of scripture within it's historical-cultural contextual is a more faithful approach, but indeed this hasn't always been the case. Slavery is a good example of this, as were the Crusades and the Inquisition.

But such issues are not limited to Christianity or religion in general. The Myth of Progress factors heavily into America's misadventures, from Manifest Destiny, to believing we'd be greeted as liberators in the Middle East.

All this to say, what matters is the content of the ideology, what's being taught and how it's being lived.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2025, 11:56:37 AM »
I have no idea what to think about this mess but since I do think a lot about disinformation, I found the heated exchange between Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson about Iran to be fun… but also disheartening in that one analysis is that Cruz is a (paid? Dunno) Bibi puppet and Carlson is a (known paid) Putin puppet.

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2025, 12:22:02 PM »
All this to say, what matters is the content of the ideology, what's being taught and how it's being lived.

TLDR - Religious or not . . . good people will be good and assholes will be assholes.  :P

Ron Scott

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2025, 01:47:32 PM »
While I find a lot to criticize with the US I think the non-totalitarian world is better off with us than the alternatives. A US that engages and negotiates with the world without resorting to unnecessary aggression is a good thing IMO.

Engaging and negotiating is great.  I feel like many from your country don't recognize the tremendous amount of destabilization that the CIA has done in your name around the world and how it has shaped many of the tragedies and problems that exist today.

It would be a very different world if the US hadn't ended democracy in Iran and pushed the country down the path of authoritarianism to secure oil rights.  There are many in South America who were demonstrably worse off economically and democratically after CIA led coups took the governments of Ecuador (1963), Brazil (1964), Chile (1964/73), Bolivia (1964), and Panama (1981).  Or the overthrow of the democratically elected government in Haiti (1991) and current day support of corrupt human rights abuser Jovenel Moïse.  Or the 2009 CIA backed coup in Honduras to overthrow democratically elected Manuel Zelaya.

The US has historically been a force of economic prosperity for Americans.  The rest of the world has benefited  .  . . . when aligned with US interests.  It will be interesting to see what the effect of Trump dismantling the US government has on future foreign policy and interventions around the world as China takes over the role the US once held as a world leader.

Some people pay no attention to anything going on so there’s that. But the large majority of American’s understand what its government has done in the past.

I mean after the Dutch and British championed slavery here it lasted for 400 years, well after the revolution. Then we had abound 100 years of Jim Crow. We imprisoned Japanese American citizens during the WW2, deported 1.3+ million Mexicans including thousands of citizens in the 50s, and in the 60s we had the War in Vietnam and started a War on Drugs that increased the imprisonment of blacks and Hispanics by 7X. Starting after WW2 the government here became Machiavellian because they thought they had to to keep up with the USSR and did all the regime stuff you listed, and that attitude stuck to some extent after the Cold War was won. I mean for Christ sakes we just got out of a 2-decade war in the Middle East ourselves. The Americans you’re talking about that don’t know any of this probably haven’t started the 5th grade yet.

The view that America is some shining example of statehood, some beacon of light in the world is the height of naïveté.  When was that EVER true???

The issue you need to confront is that fact that the world today—as always—is a dangerous place. The 20th Century alone should tell you that since we all know the atrocities and incredible violence suffered then. It’s not all rainbows and fairy tales, and America isn’t going to give any of that to anybody. American is going to do the right things sometimes and the wrong things sometimes. Get over it.

Countries choose their allies when they can, do their best to influence the lives of their citizens and others, and cope with whatever happens.

I’m a fairly patriotic American as we go. I can’t stand Trump and I think the 2-party system here is a disaster of major proportions. What am I gonna do? I’m probably gonna vote for a stupid Dem when I get the chance because it’s the best shot we got.

If I were you I’d be praying right now that America doesn’t screw up the current world order and let the China-Russia-Iran-NK alliance end up running the 21st Century. That’ll be tough enough for Americans like me. The rest…uh boy…


Ron Scott

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2025, 01:48:37 PM »
I have no idea what to think about this mess but since I do think a lot about disinformation, I found the heated exchange between Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson about Iran to be fun… but also disheartening in that one analysis is that Cruz is a (paid? Dunno) Bibi puppet and Carlson is a (known paid) Putin puppet.

That would be funny if it weren’t so sad, and so true.

mtnrider

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2025, 03:53:51 PM »
All this to say, what matters is the content of the ideology, what's being taught and how it's being lived.

TLDR - Religious or not . . . good people will be good and assholes will be assholes.  :P

Off topic, but:  Playful emoticon or not, this concept is useful to remember.  I've met jerks in small environmental organizations, and wondered how could they be jerks?  They are aiming for something good! 

Or, I felt this cognitive dissonance about Musk since the "not a flamethrower" thing and the Thai cave rescue.  In his case, it turned out that being a jerk was a warning.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2025, 05:18:17 PM »
The CIA was formed in 1947 and employed former Nazis. I only just learned about all this crap from this great podcast Patterns Tell Stories.

The CIA has been doing totally crazy shit ever since and the Nazis never went away in America and Nazi money is in American venture capital and openly Nazi individuals are in the government today — but it’s OK because now in addition to being white, a token few of them are Asian, Black and Jewish. /s

Oh and maybe the UFO disclosure stuff is getting a nice Christian overlay on it because religion is a wonderful way for Thiel/Palantir to manipulate the masses. (Since religion was brought up as a cause of conflict in this thread.)

It’s crazy how connected it all is. And while we get triggered by religion, brutality, morality or lack thereof….follow the money. That’s what it’s about.

reeshau

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2025, 05:44:06 PM »
The CIA was formed in 1947 and employed former Nazis. I only just learned about all this crap from this great podcast Patterns Tell Stories.

The CIA was formed from the OSS, which began in 1941 and combined functions of further precursor organizations.

They were crazy long before 1946.

And if you have to disqualify American organizations because they employed former nazis, you would have to go far, indeed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

As WWII wound down, there was a race on many fronts with the Soviet Union to secure resources, including land and brainpower.

rocketpj

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2025, 05:50:39 PM »
All this to say, what matters is the content of the ideology, what's being taught and how it's being lived.

TLDR - Religious or not . . . good people will be good and assholes will be assholes.  :P

Off topic, but:  Playful emoticon or not, this concept is useful to remember.  I've met jerks in small environmental organizations, and wondered how could they be jerks?  They are aiming for something good! 

Or, I felt this cognitive dissonance about Musk since the "not a flamethrower" thing and the Thai cave rescue.  In his case, it turned out that being a jerk was a warning.

I've spent most of the last 25 years on the non-profit/social service sector and can attest that working for an organization 'doing good' in no way filters out  jerks.  In fact there is a cohort of people in the sector who 'come from wealth' and expect to be constantly lauded for the 'sacrifice' they are making by helping people (all while living in a $M house paid for by family etc).  And most definitely feel and act like the rest of us are NPCs in their noble quest for the cause.

FINate

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2025, 07:12:50 PM »
All this to say, what matters is the content of the ideology, what's being taught and how it's being lived.

TLDR - Religious or not . . . good people will be good and assholes will be assholes.  :P

Off topic, but:  Playful emoticon or not, this concept is useful to remember.  I've met jerks in small environmental organizations, and wondered how could they be jerks?  They are aiming for something good! 

Or, I felt this cognitive dissonance about Musk since the "not a flamethrower" thing and the Thai cave rescue.  In his case, it turned out that being a jerk was a warning.

I've spent most of the last 25 years on the non-profit/social service sector and can attest that working for an organization 'doing good' in no way filters out  jerks.  In fact there is a cohort of people in the sector who 'come from wealth' and expect to be constantly lauded for the 'sacrifice' they are making by helping people (all while living in a $M house paid for by family etc).  And most definitely feel and act like the rest of us are NPCs in their noble quest for the cause.

I'll add to this little side excursion: what, exactly, is good anyway? In many places, including the Middle East, there are social norms that we regard as bad, whereas to the local population it is good. The same can be said of human history as well, with pretty much every ancient civilization having a very different (and offensive to us) understanding of what's good.

In many ways it's the people that are convinced they're doing good that I worry about the most.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.” -- C.S. Lewis

ChpBstrd

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2025, 08:59:20 AM »
So while this conflict is indeed motivated by religious ideology (Zionism included), it's clear that the old saying about all religions being essentially the same is BS. Whether it's militant Islam or Christian Nationalism, what an ideology teaches about violence and power really matters.
Religion tends to be deliberately vague.  This lets it adapt to changes over time - it becomes a Rorschach test of the people who choose to follow it.  Two people can read the same religious tome and come away with completely different interpretations.  People reading it in different ages come away with completely different ideas of what their God was saying (just look at how Christianity has been used to both justify and outlaw slavery for example).  It's not so much the ideology as the view of the current practitioners of the ideology that becomes important.
I'm gonna side with @GuitarStv on this one. "What an ideology teaches about violence and power" seems to be flexible over time. Today's benign congregation doing a cereal drive for hungry kids has a historical tendency to become tomorrow's hotbed of hatred, militarism, and cruelty. I've heard enough of "Islam is peace" or "god is love" from people who represent neither, to see through the charade.

In the US during the 1920s, Christians would get out of church in their Sunday best (after hearing the sermon) and lynch black people.

Their grandparents would get out of church and go mistreat their slaves.

In the 1930s, Nazi theologians such as Gerhard Kittel, Paul Althaus, Emanuel Hirsch, Siegfried Leffler, and Julius Leutheuser, among many others, and millions of lay people, transformed German Protestant Christianity into the pro-Nazi Deutch Christen movement.

And Pope Pius XII negotiated with Hitler for political gain, while aware of the genocide.

In Croatia during the 1940s, Christian nationalists ran a concentration camp for women devoted to constant rape against Muslims, Jews, and Gypsies.

In the 1930s, Methodists thought dancing was immoral. Now they marry gay couples. What's next is anyone's guess.

In the United State TO THIS DAY, Christians routinely abandon and throw out their own children who are sexual/gender minorities, because that is the fashionable thing to do. Their kids often end up in horrific circumstances, including homelessness, trafficking, and suicide and yet all familial love is cut off.

At my city's Pride parade this year, various Christian denominations were competing to host the best booth and recruit the most LGBTQ people. Meanwhile, other Christian denominations preach sermons about God's urgent directive to oppress, harm, and imprison sexual/gender minorities. They read from the same Bible, which is vague enough to support any position a person prefers. Even when the Bible is 100% clear on something, like not eating shellfish, people can overcome such directives "through faith" and by claiming some other part of the bible nullifies the "old law". I've been to crawfish boils and overheard hateful comments toward LGBTQ people from wealthy religious folks. They weren't just picking crawfish apart, they were cherry picking! And yet what else could they possibly do? The scripture of any successful religion is a mess of contradiction, unclarity, and irreverence.

Perhaps someone could embark on a project to cut all the toxic ideas out of a religion, sort of like what Thomas Jefferson did with the "Jefferson Bible". But what you'd end up with would simply be something that appeals to fewer people, because it would be less morally flexible and less intriguing. The moral relativism is a feature, not a bug. People are seeking relief from the burden of their conscience, not an enhancement of conscience.

All this to say, what matters is the content of the ideology, what's being taught and how it's being lived.
TLDR - Religious or not . . . good people will be good and assholes will be assholes.  :P
That said, I'm going to disagree with @GuitarStv here. Assholes do not simply emerge from the ether as a product of nature; they are typically people who justify themselves with some layer of excuse for their bad behavior. The more a society condones such excuse-making, the more assholes it will endure.

If you point out to an asshole that they're harming people or that their attitude is toxic, they will almost always respond with their very good reason for doing so. Self-centered excuses eventually reveal their pattern, even to the excuse maker. But if the excuse can be a matter of faith, all inquiry and self-accountability end there. When "god demands that we kill the infidels" or "the Bible says I should engage in gay-bashing" or "my attitude toward women is biblical" then the asshole has an excuse that is resistant to all reasoning, and can continue crashing through society with no one able to drag them into self-accountability.

FINate

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2025, 10:04:49 AM »
So while this conflict is indeed motivated by religious ideology (Zionism included), it's clear that the old saying about all religions being essentially the same is BS. Whether it's militant Islam or Christian Nationalism, what an ideology teaches about violence and power really matters.
Religion tends to be deliberately vague.  This lets it adapt to changes over time - it becomes a Rorschach test of the people who choose to follow it.  Two people can read the same religious tome and come away with completely different interpretations.  People reading it in different ages come away with completely different ideas of what their God was saying (just look at how Christianity has been used to both justify and outlaw slavery for example).  It's not so much the ideology as the view of the current practitioners of the ideology that becomes important.
I'm gonna side with @GuitarStv on this one. "What an ideology teaches about violence and power" seems to be flexible over time. Today's benign congregation doing a cereal drive for hungry kids has a historical tendency to become tomorrow's hotbed of hatred, militarism, and cruelty. I've heard enough of "Islam is peace" or "god is love" from people who represent neither, to see through the charade.

In the US during the 1920s, Christians would get out of church in their Sunday best (after hearing the sermon) and lynch black people.

Their grandparents would get out of church and go mistreat their slaves.

In the 1930s, Nazi theologians such as Gerhard Kittel, Paul Althaus, Emanuel Hirsch, Siegfried Leffler, and Julius Leutheuser, among many others, and millions of lay people, transformed German Protestant Christianity into the pro-Nazi Deutch Christen movement.

And Pope Pius XII negotiated with Hitler for political gain, while aware of the genocide.

In Croatia during the 1940s, Christian nationalists ran a concentration camp for women devoted to constant rape against Muslims, Jews, and Gypsies.

In the 1930s, Methodists thought dancing was immoral. Now they marry gay couples. What's next is anyone's guess.

In the United State TO THIS DAY, Christians routinely abandon and throw out their own children who are sexual/gender minorities, because that is the fashionable thing to do. Their kids often end up in horrific circumstances, including homelessness, trafficking, and suicide and yet all familial love is cut off.

At my city's Pride parade this year, various Christian denominations were competing to host the best booth and recruit the most LGBTQ people. Meanwhile, other Christian denominations preach sermons about God's urgent directive to oppress, harm, and imprison sexual/gender minorities. They read from the same Bible, which is vague enough to support any position a person prefers. Even when the Bible is 100% clear on something, like not eating shellfish, people can overcome such directives "through faith" and by claiming some other part of the bible nullifies the "old law". I've been to crawfish boils and overheard hateful comments toward LGBTQ people from wealthy religious folks. They weren't just picking crawfish apart, they were cherry picking! And yet what else could they possibly do? The scripture of any successful religion is a mess of contradiction, unclarity, and irreverence.

Perhaps someone could embark on a project to cut all the toxic ideas out of a religion, sort of like what Thomas Jefferson did with the "Jefferson Bible". But what you'd end up with would simply be something that appeals to fewer people, because it would be less morally flexible and less intriguing. The moral relativism is a feature, not a bug. People are seeking relief from the burden of their conscience, not an enhancement of conscience.

The church and Christianity in the general sense has done many things wrong over the millennia. This isn't at all surprising, most of the New Testament letters were written in response to early churches getting it wrong. The church (outside of some fundamentalist groups) does not claim a monopoly on doing right. It is understood as a living entity made up of flawed and broken people. As such it is susceptible to the corruption of power, such as in Nazi Germany as you point out, or more recently in the Russian Orthodox Church. My point, however, is that the seeds of correction to such mistakes are found embedded within the system itself. E.g. the teachings of Jesus are very clearly in opposition to the Third Reich, and I would add even America (apparently this is going viral: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/viral-video-on-maga-christianity_l_6851986ae4b0e5badb471565). So in the case of Nazi Germany, you have those like Dietrich Bonhoeffer who, due to the conviction of his faith, decided to go back into the lions den knowing he was almost certainly sacrificing his life, which itself is based on a cruciform understanding of reality.

I'm not trying to be pedantic when I ask "what is good?" It's a serious question... you and GuitarStv are making  judgments about what is good and bad in the world. I generally agree with both of you on these. My question is about the origin of these beliefs, not the content. I think a strong argument can be made that it's based on Christian values, and the fact that you just assume these as givens shows how thoroughly Christianity has revolutionized western society over thousands of years. To be clear, I'm not saying someone has to be a Christian to do good or be a good person, I'm just saying we take a lot for granted. I'm basing a lot of this on the book Dominion by Tom Holland. He's a secular historian that started out mostly interested in ancient civilizations, but became increasing uneasy about how radically different these cultures were from our own, and this set him on a path of trying to make sense of how we get to things like universal human rights and so on.

All this to say, I think there's a lot of value in working to reform within the faith. To say "God is love," with a proper biblical understanding of the meaning of love, is to say God is inherently other centered, that all of reality is a gift given for the joy of making room for others, that God gave himself completely by emptying himself and entering into creation for the sake of others and this demonstrates what true power is. Die to yourself, even die for you enemies... In my view the problems you rightfully point out are addressed by this.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2025, 10:07:29 AM by FINate »

GuitarStv

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2025, 11:33:34 AM »
I'm not trying to be pedantic when I ask "what is good?" It's a serious question... you and GuitarStv are making  judgments about what is good and bad in the world. I generally agree with both of you on these. My question is about the origin of these beliefs, not the content. I think a strong argument can be made that it's based on Christian values, and the fact that you just assume these as givens shows how thoroughly Christianity has revolutionized western society over thousands of years. To be clear, I'm not saying someone has to be a Christian to do good or be a good person, I'm just saying we take a lot for granted. I'm basing a lot of this on the book Dominion by Tom Holland. He's a secular historian that started out mostly interested in ancient civilizations, but became increasing uneasy about how radically different these cultures were from our own, and this set him on a path of trying to make sense of how we get to things like universal human rights and so on.

My definition of 'good' is loosely based on Epicurean hedonism.  Basically, you want to do things that result in long term increase in pleasure* in your life.  A good chunk of this is figuring out how your actions impact others and taking actions that increase pleasure in the lives of others (or at the very least fail to cause another suffering).

While Christianity is certainly important in many ways in our society, I don't believe this moral framework is heavily influenced by Christianity - there are many points of divergence.




* Pleasure in the Epicurean sense - different from most modern definitions of hedonism.  An Epicurean would eschew cocaine use, or cheating on a spouse because while they might be pleasurable in the short term they don't tend to lead towards the more long term feelings of satiety/fulfillment/freedom from pain in body and soul that Epicurus defines as pleasure.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2025, 01:39:11 PM »
The church (outside of some fundamentalist groups) does not claim a monopoly on doing right. It is understood as a living entity made up of flawed and broken people. As such it is susceptible to the corruption of power, such as in Nazi Germany as you point out, or more recently in the Russian Orthodox Church.
Quote
All this to say, I think there's a lot of value in working to reform within the faith. To say "God is love," with a proper biblical understanding of the meaning of love, is to say God is inherently other centered, that all of reality is a gift given for the joy of making room for others, that God gave himself completely by emptying himself and entering into creation for the sake of others and this demonstrates what true power is. Die to yourself, even die for you enemies... In my view the problems you rightfully point out are addressed by this.
Imagine an electricity generation plant that used more electricity than it created, and was a net drain on the grid.

Imagine a grocery store which removed more food from people's pantries and refrigerators than it put in.

Imagine an auto mechanic shop that gave people their cars in worse shape than when they were originally dropped off.

Imagine a governmental system that created more disorder and injustice than order and justice.

What if each of these profitable institutions pointed the finger at their employees, and said words to the effect of "you just can't hire good help these days" or "our workers keep screwing up" but insisted that the institutions themselves were the inherent good part? What if this excuse continued for hundreds of years? What if there was no plausible plan to fix this employee problem, and anyway, by all indications, the employees were following the instructions the organization was giving them?

That, in essence, is the issue with an ethical system that keeps producing grave - even genocidal - moral errors over the course of many, many generations. It had one job, to produce the society's ethics, and instead we receive a net drain on society's ethics. It promised to make people better, and yet the world's most religious societies are strongly correlated with the world's most violent and corrupt societies, with correlations to war, street crime, and violence against women. The relationship is noted within countries (i.e. the most religious parts of the US have more violence) and as a predictor at the individual level.

The MAGA folk advocating ethnic cleansing and the overthrow of democracy are Christians. Is it their fault or did Christianity fail at its job of making them better? What if we can observe them using churches as an organizing platform, and hear them using scripture as a justification for their harmful acts?

Quote
I'm not trying to be pedantic when I ask "what is good?" It's a serious question... you and GuitarStv are making  judgments about what is good and bad in the world. I generally agree with both of you on these. My question is about the origin of these beliefs, not the content. I think a strong argument can be made that it's based on Christian values, and the fact that you just assume these as givens shows how thoroughly Christianity has revolutionized western society over thousands of years. To be clear, I'm not saying someone has to be a Christian to do good or be a good person, I'm just saying we take a lot for granted.
The Code of Hammurabi predates Christianity by 2000 years. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle critically examined existing notions of "what is good?" hundreds of years before Paul. Pagan Greece and Rome went on to host schools of philosophy whose ideas still circulate today. Meanwhile in China, Confucius independently build a system with many similarities to ideas in the West. In India... discussion of the question goes waaaaay back. Jesus was not the first person to ever ask what is good.

All these influences produced Christianity, much like today's pop music can trace its ancestors to jazz, gospel, country, opera, musical theater, rock, and R&B. Moreover, some consensus on the question is required to form any civilization larger than a family cave, and there are some universals that reappear across human history. We humans can't maintain a primordial village if we allow murder and theft between in-group members, or if we discourage production, or if we don't help one another, or if we refuse to follow a leadership hierarchy. I would be curious to know just one norm or aesthetic that Christianity introduced that was not practiced somewhere else.

mtnrider

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #67 on: Today at 12:52:42 PM »
The church (outside of some fundamentalist groups) does not claim a monopoly on doing right. It is understood as a living entity made up of flawed and broken people. As such it is susceptible to the corruption of power, such as in Nazi Germany as you point out, or more recently in the Russian Orthodox Church.
Quote
All this to say, I think there's a lot of value in working to reform within the faith. To say "God is love," with a proper biblical understanding of the meaning of love, is to say God is inherently other centered, that all of reality is a gift given for the joy of making room for others, that God gave himself completely by emptying himself and entering into creation for the sake of others and this demonstrates what true power is. Die to yourself, even die for you enemies... In my view the problems you rightfully point out are addressed by this.
Imagine an electricity generation plant that used more electricity than it created, and was a net drain on the grid.

Imagine a grocery store which removed more food from people's pantries and refrigerators than it put in.

Imagine an auto mechanic shop that gave people their cars in worse shape than when they were originally dropped off.

Imagine a governmental system that created more disorder and injustice than order and justice.

What if each of these profitable institutions pointed the finger at their employees, and said words to the effect of "you just can't hire good help these days" or "our workers keep screwing up" but insisted that the institutions themselves were the inherent good part? What if this excuse continued for hundreds of years? What if there was no plausible plan to fix this employee problem, and anyway, by all indications, the employees were following the instructions the organization was giving them?

That, in essence, is the issue with an ethical system that keeps producing grave - even genocidal - moral errors over the course of many, many generations. It had one job, to produce the society's ethics, and instead we receive a net drain on society's ethics. It promised to make people better, and yet the world's most religious societies are strongly correlated with the world's most violent and corrupt societies, with correlations to war, street crime, and violence against women. The relationship is noted within countries (i.e. the most religious parts of the US have more violence) and as a predictor at the individual level.

The MAGA folk advocating ethnic cleansing and the overthrow of democracy are Christians. Is it their fault or did Christianity fail at its job of making them better? What if we can observe them using churches as an organizing platform, and hear them using scripture as a justification for their harmful acts?

Quote
I'm not trying to be pedantic when I ask "what is good?" It's a serious question... you and GuitarStv are making  judgments about what is good and bad in the world. I generally agree with both of you on these. My question is about the origin of these beliefs, not the content. I think a strong argument can be made that it's based on Christian values, and the fact that you just assume these as givens shows how thoroughly Christianity has revolutionized western society over thousands of years. To be clear, I'm not saying someone has to be a Christian to do good or be a good person, I'm just saying we take a lot for granted.
The Code of Hammurabi predates Christianity by 2000 years. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle critically examined existing notions of "what is good?" hundreds of years before Paul. Pagan Greece and Rome went on to host schools of philosophy whose ideas still circulate today. Meanwhile in China, Confucius independently build a system with many similarities to ideas in the West. In India... discussion of the question goes waaaaay back. Jesus was not the first person to ever ask what is good.

All these influences produced Christianity, much like today's pop music can trace its ancestors to jazz, gospel, country, opera, musical theater, rock, and R&B. Moreover, some consensus on the question is required to form any civilization larger than a family cave, and there are some universals that reappear across human history. We humans can't maintain a primordial village if we allow murder and theft between in-group members, or if we discourage production, or if we don't help one another, or if we refuse to follow a leadership hierarchy. I would be curious to know just one norm or aesthetic that Christianity introduced that was not practiced somewhere else.

These are great analogies.  You seem to have a background in this.

Maybe redemption?  Other organized religions have something like it, but I don't remember one quite as accepting of grave mistakes and allowing for grace and forgiveness.  Sadly, the concept gets twisted into accepting someone like Trump as a Christian.

I might hypothesize that many people need to believe in something.  I wonder what would have happened had Christianity not been there over the centuries?  Would a philosophy of science have become prominent and we mostly would be humanitarian critical thinkers?  I suspect not, and a different religion would have been subverted/subsumed by those in power.  Then the question is - which are the least worst religions?

I totally agree that in the current incarnation, as US Christian Nationalism, Christianity is very much at odds with its core principles.  (But see also that the SF bishop has been working on the "love thy neighbor" core tenant: https://www.courthousenews.com/san-diego-bishop-tells-trump-to-treat-migrants-more-christ-like-after-observing-court-hearings/)





DoubleDown

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Re: Israel vs Iran
« Reply #68 on: Today at 12:53:09 PM »
I would be curious to know just one norm or aesthetic that Christianity introduced that was not practiced somewhere else.

Why does that matter? I'm no religious scholar, but I don't think Jesus ever professed to have "invented" or introduced any new moral or ethical ideas. Maybe even on the contrary, he sought to return people to the original and very basic idea of loving God and each other, as originally intended, rather than being caught up in "rules" and theatrical displays of so-called goodness.

 

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