Israel vs Hamas

[YttriumNitrate]

Disturbing details continue to emerge about treatment of Palestinian prisoners (including children as young as six) in Israeli prisons since the start of the Israel/Hamas war:

Well, they gotta make sure there are enough radicalized Palestinians for when we have the sequel in about 20 years. 

[Poundwise]

Somebody shared this video with me and I think that Van Jones makes good points.
You protest a policy, you don't protest a people.

What I think made things harder was that directly after Oct 7 there were demonstrations against Israel worldwide rather than expressions of sympathy for their terrorist attacks. I don't know if it was the media magnifying conflict, but instead of seeing "We are with the victims of the attacks/Not in our name" from pro-Palestinian groups, there was a distinct "Serves you right/About time" flavor.
 
The spreading of these sentiments terrified Jewish Americans and led to hardening of attitudes, tying Biden's hands.

[GuitarStv]

Somebody shared this video with me and I think that Van Jones makes good points.
You protest a policy, you don't protest a people.

What I think made things harder was that directly after Oct 7 there were demonstrations against Israel worldwide rather than expressions of sympathy for their terrorist attacks. I don't know if it was the media magnifying conflict, but instead of seeing "We are with the victims of the attacks/Not in our name" from pro-Palestinian groups, there was a distinct "Serves you right/About time" flavor.
 
The spreading of these sentiments terrified Jewish Americans and led to hardening of attitudes, tying Biden's hands.

I'm 100% against violent protest.  I don't believe that violence is a sensible way to achieve political change.

Not sure if you're aware of the specifics of the 'real estate event' that toured North American synagogues that was being protested in the video you linked  . . .  but the concern that caused the protest was that the real estate company was selling illegally occupied Palestinian land in the West Bank.  There were protests at most of the synagogues where this event happened, including in Toronto - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/real-estate-thornhill-event-1.7133251.  These were protests largely motivated by this real estate dealing - not the synagogues, not Israelis, not the Jewish people.

FWIW, I agree with the sentiment of 'protest a policy, not a people'.  That said, if you're using a house of worship to conduct business then you have to accept that protests of the business being conducted there might have nothing to do with the religion being worshipped.

[ChpBstrd]

Somebody shared this video with me and I think that Van Jones makes good points.
You protest a policy, you don't protest a people.

What I think made things harder was that directly after Oct 7 there were demonstrations against Israel worldwide rather than expressions of sympathy for their terrorist attacks. I don't know if it was the media magnifying conflict, but instead of seeing "We are with the victims of the attacks/Not in our name" from pro-Palestinian groups, there was a distinct "Serves you right/About time" flavor.
 
The spreading of these sentiments terrified Jewish Americans and led to hardening of attitudes, tying Biden's hands.

Yea this is pure ethno-religious hatred and you see it from both sides. I have a hard time rooting for either Israel or Palestine, since each side's ultimate wish would be genocide against the other and the establishment of a theocracy on the magic dirt. If there is a lesson to learn in this tragedy, it is the folly and futility of their shared but two-flavor worldview.

Yet many Americans are taking sides, and that's odd to me. Perhaps it makes sense for people from each ethno-religious group to fear annihilation from the other, but the terms and conditions of living in the U.S. include leaving behind your old ethnic conflicts from the old country. That's the point of church-state separation. As James Madison said "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries."

People come here to escape such conditions, not replicate them. If you agree having a place not at all like Israel or Palestine is important and valuable, then it doesn't make sense to pick sides in this fight. I mostly pity the nonbelievers and the children within each culture. They are among the ones dying because they had the bad luck to be born in a part of the world ruled by religious zealots and they cannot speak up, much less escape.

[iris lily]

Somebody shared this video with me and I think that Van Jones makes good points.
You protest a policy, you don't protest a people.

What I think made things harder was that directly after Oct 7 there were demonstrations against Israel worldwide rather than expressions of sympathy for their terrorist attacks. I don't know if it was the media magnifying conflict, but instead of seeing "We are with the victims of the attacks/Not in our name" from pro-Palestinian groups, there was a distinct "Serves you right/About time" flavor.
 
The spreading of these sentiments terrified Jewish Americans and led to hardening of attitudes, tying Biden's hands.

Yea this is pure ethno-religious hatred and you see it from both sides. I have a hard time rooting for either Israel or Palestine, since each side's ultimate wish would be genocide against the other and the establishment of a theocracy on the magic dirt. If there is a lesson to learn in this tragedy, it is the folly and futility of their shared but two-flavor worldview.

Yet many Americans are taking sides, and that's odd to me. Perhaps it makes sense for people from each ethno-religious group to fear annihilation from the other, but the terms and conditions of living in the U.S. include leaving behind your old ethnic conflicts from the old country. That's the point of church-state separation. As James Madison said "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries."

People come here to escape such conditions, not replicate them. If you agree having a place not at all like Israel or Palestine is important and valuable, then it doesn't make sense to pick sides in this fight. I mostly pity the nonbelievers and the children within each culture. They are among the ones dying because they had the bad luck to be born in a part of the world ruled by religious zealots and they cannot speak up, much less escape.

Israel has made a major change to their long religious infusion into governmental policy, and that is: the super religious men are no longer exempt from military service.

I wonder how that will play out in actuality. These guys were rioting not too long ago about that issue. I don’t  see how they can be effective combat participants.

But to your idea, I think painting the religiousness of Israel and Palestine as one, equating the same level of religiousoty in their government and policy, is wrong.

There *is*something to be said for shared cultural/religious in building strong communities though.

[Poundwise]

A friend shared information about this group, Standing Together. While I'm not Jewish or Palestinian and have no dog in this fight, it seems like this organization promotes a very reasonable and constructive stance towardsa complicated issue.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/17/world/middleeast/israel-palestinians-standing-together.html

[GuitarStv]

It's good to see that there are people living in Israel who don't believe segregation, discrimination, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid are the correct way to respond to Palestine.  I sincerely hope that they are able to generate enough political support to fight the current genocidal regime controlling the country and change Israel's course.

[ChpBstrd]

It's good to see that there are people living in Israel who don't believe segregation, discrimination, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid are the correct way to respond to Palestine.  I sincerely hope that they are able to generate enough political support to fight the current genocidal regime controlling the country and change Israel's course.

I find it doubtful, and still think this conflict ends (until the next conflict) with ethnic cleansing. Probably this will be committed by Israel, but we cannot rule out a nuclear attack on Israel followed by a pan-Arab invasion and massacre as an alternative ending.

Netanyahu appears to want conflict, and if the Israeli population has not ousted him by now via democratic means, then the voices of peace and tolerance are in the minority. Similarly, if the Israeli government is unwilling to stop settler violence or enforce the law in the West Bank, there is little hope of the legal system being used to constrain the government.

This is the way of religious radicalism. It is what we have to fear in the U.S.

[ChpBstrd]

The Palestinian Ministry of Foreign Affairs has called on the International Criminal Court (ICC) to issue an arrest warrant for Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich for saying it may be “justified and moral” to starve Palestinians in Gaza.

“We can’t, in the current global reality, manage a war. No one in the world will allow us to starve two million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages,” he said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/8/palestine-urges-icc-arrest-warrant-for-smotrich-over-call-to-starve-gaza

[GuitarStv]

Furthering the reach of it's state sponsored policy of indiscriminate violence against civilians, Israel has taken credit for the wounding of 2,800 people in Lebanon (https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/17/middleeast/lebanon-hezbollah-pagers-explosions-intl/index.html) - killing at least 12 so far (including two children and four healthcare workers - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2kn10xxldo) via bombs hidden in pagers and walkie talkies.  Moussad and members of the IDF hid explosives in pagers and triggered them to go off in crowded public areas (including shopping centers and funerals).



For the supporters of Israel in the US . . . if a bunch of folks from Yemen planted bombs and blew up cellphones they thought might belong to American soldiers indiscriminately wounding anyone in the vicinity wouldn't you call that terrorism, and the people responsible terrorists?

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Moussad and members of the IDF hid explosives in pagers and triggered them to go off in crowded public areas (including shopping centers and funerals).

Can you quote the source that IDF deliberately "triggered them to go off in crowded public areas"?  Because that sounds like you adding hyperbole to distort factual information.

[dividendman]

Furthering the reach of it's state sponsored policy of indiscriminate violence against civilians, Israel has taken credit for the wounding of 2,800 people in Lebanon (https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/17/middleeast/lebanon-hezbollah-pagers-explosions-intl/index.html) - killing at least 12 so far (including two children and four healthcare workers - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2kn10xxldo) via bombs hidden in pagers and walkie talkies.  Moussad and members of the IDF hid explosives in pagers and triggered them to go off in crowded public areas (including shopping centers and funerals).



For the supporters of Israel in the US . . . if a bunch of folks from Yemen planted bombs and blew up cellphones they thought might belong to American soldiers indiscriminately wounding anyone in the vicinity wouldn't you call that terrorism, and the people responsible terrorists?

So, I think the complete opposite. These pagers were given to Hezbollah, a designated terrorist group (by both the US and Canada), the fact that they hit over 2800 members and only had a couple of civilian casualties is an extremely favorable ratio of targets vs civilians. This is as targeted a strike as you can get.

edited to add: the Hezbollah rocket strike on an Israeli youth soccer game on the other hand that killed 12 and no militants... that's not a good ratio.

[GuitarStv]

Moussad and members of the IDF hid explosives in pagers and triggered them to go off in crowded public areas (including shopping centers and funerals).

Can you quote the source that IDF deliberately "triggered them to go off in crowded public areas"?  Because that sounds like you adding hyperbole to distort factual information.

My source is reality?  I mean, you don't need to talk to the IDF . . . you can watch videos of their handiwork:

Pager detonated in the middle of a supermarket - https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2024/sep/18/cctv-captures-pagers-simultaneously-exploding-across-lebanon-video-report

Walkie talkie being blown up in the middle of a crowded funeral - https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/18/world/video/walkie-talkie-explosion-lebanon-digvid



So, either the IDF was indiscriminately triggering them to go off regardless of the people around . . . or they were deliberately targeting civilians.  Either way it's hard to read as anything but terrorism.

[GuitarStv]

So, I think the complete opposite. These pagers were given to Hezbollah, a designated terrorist group (by both the US and Canada), the fact that they hit over 2800 members and only had a couple of civilian casualties is an extremely favorable ratio of targets vs civilians. This is as targeted as a strike as you can get.

Can you provide the source you're using that told you 2800 people injured were Hezbollah members and that there were only a couple civilian casualties?

[dividendman]

So, I think the complete opposite. These pagers were given to Hezbollah, a designated terrorist group (by both the US and Canada), the fact that they hit over 2800 members and only had a couple of civilian casualties is an extremely favorable ratio of targets vs civilians. This is as targeted as a strike as you can get.

Can you provide the source you're using that told you 2800 people injured were Hezbollah members and that there were only a couple civilian casualties?

What we know according to CBS, WSJ, and others is that Hezbollah orders the pagers after they dispensed with cell-phone use because they thought cell phoens were insecure. Now, true, they could have ordered them to give out to the public, we don't know for sure yet, but likely it was given to their members.

It remains unclear exactly how many Hezbollah pagers exploded on Tuesday. But a senior Lebanese security official and another source told the Reuters news agency that Israel's Mossad intelligence agency had planted a small amount of explosives inside 5,000 of the devices, which it said were ordered by Hezbollah months before the blasts.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hezbollah-pagers-explode-israel-taiwan-hungary-gold-apollo-bac-consulting/

Hezbollah members are fair game.

[dividendman]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-explosives-hezbollahs-taiwan-made-pagers-say-sources-2024-09-18/

Hand-held radios used by Lebanese armed group Hezbollah detonated on Wednesday across Lebanon's south, in Beirut suburbs and the Bekaa Valley, further stoking tensions with Israel a day after similar explosions by the group's pagers.

The hand-held radios were purchased by Hezbollah five months ago, around the same time as the pagers, a security source said.

To me, this is as targeted as you can get and is preferable to dropping a 10 ton bomb on an apartment block to kill a few terrorist leaders... but I'm sure that's coming.

[GuitarStv]

So, I think the complete opposite. These pagers were given to Hezbollah, a designated terrorist group (by both the US and Canada), the fact that they hit over 2800 members and only had a couple of civilian casualties is an extremely favorable ratio of targets vs civilians. This is as targeted as a strike as you can get.

Can you provide the source you're using that told you 2800 people injured were Hezbollah members and that there were only a couple civilian casualties?

What we know according to CBS, WSJ, and others is that Hezbollah orders the pagers after they dispensed with cell-phone use because they thought cell phoens were insecure. Now, true, they could have ordered them to give out to the public, we don't know for sure yet, but likely it was given to their members.

It remains unclear exactly how many Hezbollah pagers exploded on Tuesday. But a senior Lebanese security official and another source told the Reuters news agency that Israel's Mossad intelligence agency had planted a small amount of explosives inside 5,000 of the devices, which it said were ordered by Hezbollah months before the blasts.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hezbollah-pagers-explode-israel-taiwan-hungary-gold-apollo-bac-consulting/

Hezbollah members are fair game.

If a bunch of folks from Yemen planted bombs and blew up cellphones they thought might belong to American soldiers indiscriminately wounding anyone in the vicinity as they go about shopping or attending church - that's fair game is it?

edited to add: the Hezbollah rocket strike on an Israeli youth soccer game on the other hand that killed 12 and no militants... that's not a good ratio.

Agreed.  Hezbollah is a terrorist organization - they attack without care for civilians who are injured, and seem just as happy to kill civilians as enemy combatants.  They suck.  How is Israel different?

[dividendman]

So, I think the complete opposite. These pagers were given to Hezbollah, a designated terrorist group (by both the US and Canada), the fact that they hit over 2800 members and only had a couple of civilian casualties is an extremely favorable ratio of targets vs civilians. This is as targeted as a strike as you can get.

Can you provide the source you're using that told you 2800 people injured were Hezbollah members and that there were only a couple civilian casualties?

What we know according to CBS, WSJ, and others is that Hezbollah orders the pagers after they dispensed with cell-phone use because they thought cell phoens were insecure. Now, true, they could have ordered them to give out to the public, we don't know for sure yet, but likely it was given to their members.

It remains unclear exactly how many Hezbollah pagers exploded on Tuesday. But a senior Lebanese security official and another source told the Reuters news agency that Israel's Mossad intelligence agency had planted a small amount of explosives inside 5,000 of the devices, which it said were ordered by Hezbollah months before the blasts.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hezbollah-pagers-explode-israel-taiwan-hungary-gold-apollo-bac-consulting/

Hezbollah members are fair game.

If a bunch of folks from Yemen planted bombs and blew up cellphones they thought might belong to American soldiers indiscriminately wounding anyone in the vicinity as they go about shopping or attending church - that's fair game is it?

edited to add: the Hezbollah rocket strike on an Israeli youth soccer game on the other hand that killed 12 and no militants... that's not a good ratio.

Agreed.  Hezbollah is a terrorist organization - they attack without care for civilians who are injured, and seem just as happy to kill civilians as enemy combatants.  They suck.  How is Israel different?

Yes, if the US military bought 5000 phones and they blew up because an enemy hid explosives in them, killing a bunch of soldiers and some civilians, I don't consider that a war crime since the target was clearly military. Combatants shouldn't be around civilians, especially in times of war.

Israel is different because this was a targeted attack on Hezbollah. You can google how many Hezbollah fighters and leaders have been maimed in this attack, it's thousands, with little civilian damage - an excellent military operation.

Again, I'm unsure how Israel can target Hezbollah in a more precise manner than this attack. Please let me know if you you have a way they could do it.

edit: Also, maybe this deserves a different thread. Hezbollah is a Lebanese terrorist organization and shouldn't be conflated with the Palestinian situation.

[GuitarStv]

Yes, if the US military bought 5000 phones and they blew up because an enemy hid explosives in them, killing a bunch of soldiers and some civilians, I don't consider that a war crime since the target was clearly military. Combatants shouldn't be around civilians, especially in times of war.

The US has been continuously at war for more than 200 years.  You really believe that any member of the American military, any politician who supports them, and any civilian who happens to be around them at any point is a totally valid target?  I'm asking because Hezbollah started out as a military group opposed to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon (and certainly there's a military wing of the group) but they also have a political wing in the country.  So members of the group occupy both the role of soldier, and politician.

Despite your assurances to the contrary, I'm really having trouble believing that cell-bombing of politicians and civilians would be accepted by the American public as legitimate military targets - even if ostensibly the target was US soldiers.

edit: Also, maybe this deserves a different thread. Hezbollah is a Lebanese terrorist organization and shouldn't be conflated with the Palestinian situation.

I was wondering about that, but the Hezbollah/Israel stuff does seem to be directly related to the continuing planned genocide (by starvation) that Israel is overseeing in Palestine.

[dividendman]

Yes, if the US military bought 5000 phones and they blew up because an enemy hid explosives in them, killing a bunch of soldiers and some civilians, I don't consider that a war crime since the target was clearly military. Combatants shouldn't be around civilians, especially in times of war.

The US has been continuously at war for more than 200 years.  You really believe that any member of the American military, any politician who supports them, and any civilian who happens to be around them at any point is a totally valid target?  I'm asking because Hezbollah started out as a military group opposed to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon (and certainly there's a military wing of the group) but they also have a political wing in the country.  So members of the group occupy both the role of soldier, and politician.

Despite your assurances to the contrary, I'm really having trouble believing that cell-bombing of politicians and civilians would be accepted by the American public as legitimate military targets - even if ostensibly the target was US soldiers.

edit: Also, maybe this deserves a different thread. Hezbollah is a Lebanese terrorist organization and shouldn't be conflated with the Palestinian situation.

I was wondering about that, but the Hezbollah/Israel stuff does seem to be directly related to the continuing planned genocide (by starvation) that Israel is overseeing in Palestine.

Hezbollah is a designated terrorist organization. Members are fair targets. If every member of Hezbollah dropped dead that would be a good result. If it turns out that there were 20 civilian (meaning non-Hezbollah members) that were harmed, but 2800 Hezbollah members were casualties, then would you say it was a "good" attack?

I guess I'm having trouble with what you want: can you articulate what is allowed? What should Israel do against Hezbollah's repeated rocket attacks? Just shrug a bit? How should Israel deal with Hezbollah? It seems this attack was a perfect response.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Moussad and members of the IDF hid explosives in pagers and triggered them to go off in crowded public areas (including shopping centers and funerals).

Can you quote the source that IDF deliberately "triggered them to go off in crowded public areas"?  Because that sounds like you adding hyperbole to distort factual information.

My source is reality?  I mean, you don't need to talk to the IDF . . . you can watch videos of their handiwork:

Pager detonated in the middle of a supermarket - https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2024/sep/18/cctv-captures-pagers-simultaneously-exploding-across-lebanon-video-report

Walkie talkie being blown up in the middle of a crowded funeral - https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/18/world/video/walkie-talkie-explosion-lebanon-digvid

So, either the IDF was indiscriminately triggering them to go off regardless of the people around . . . or they were deliberately targeting civilians.  Either way it's hard to read as anything but terrorism.

You claimed IDF "triggered them to go off in crowded public areas (including shopping centers and funerals)", meaning the goal was to trigger explosions in public.  No source for that.  And now you include a similar claim, again with no source, that they might be "deliberately targeting civilians".

As others have shown, the exploding pagers purchased and used by Hezbollah.  Not civilians, but terrorists.  It's interesting that you don't care about the difference.

For the supporters of Israel in the US . . . if a bunch of folks from Yemen planted bombs and blew up cellphones they thought might belong to American soldiers indiscriminately wounding anyone in the vicinity wouldn't you call that terrorism, and the people responsible terrorists?

Why are you equating American soldiers with terrorists?

[GilesMM]

Israel was quite stupid in this attack. It is like stepping on a bee hive.

[reeshau]

Israel was quite stupid in this attack. It is like stepping on a bee hive.

It seems to me like this might be the end of an operation, not the whole operation.  If Israel was able to plant not just explosives, but the electronics to activate them, into Hezbollah's lines of communication, what else was there?  I would imagine listening in on their communications would be a lot more valuable than some deaths and injuries.  Were these capabilities discovered?

It reminds me of the Mission Impossible, where the message would self-destruct after being delivered.

I have also seen claims that a lot of Hezbollah members were serving in secret.  This not only caused damage, but also outed them as Hezbollah members.  Hezbollah has very strong support in the Shia community in Lebanon, but is viewed largely negatively in Sunni and Christian communities.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/shadow-hezbollah-israel-escalation-poll-shows-slim-majority-lebanese-still-want

[GuitarStv]

Yes, if the US military bought 5000 phones and they blew up because an enemy hid explosives in them, killing a bunch of soldiers and some civilians, I don't consider that a war crime since the target was clearly military. Combatants shouldn't be around civilians, especially in times of war.

The US has been continuously at war for more than 200 years.  You really believe that any member of the American military, any politician who supports them, and any civilian who happens to be around them at any point is a totally valid target?  I'm asking because Hezbollah started out as a military group opposed to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon (and certainly there's a military wing of the group) but they also have a political wing in the country.  So members of the group occupy both the role of soldier, and politician.

Despite your assurances to the contrary, I'm really having trouble believing that cell-bombing of politicians and civilians would be accepted by the American public as legitimate military targets - even if ostensibly the target was US soldiers.

edit: Also, maybe this deserves a different thread. Hezbollah is a Lebanese terrorist organization and shouldn't be conflated with the Palestinian situation.

I was wondering about that, but the Hezbollah/Israel stuff does seem to be directly related to the continuing planned genocide (by starvation) that Israel is overseeing in Palestine.

Hezbollah is a designated terrorist organization. Members are fair targets. If every member of Hezbollah dropped dead that would be a good result.

It's not really that cut and dried.  Hezbollah started out as a group fighting the Israeli military occupation of Lebanon using guerilla tactics - irregular troops, suicide bombings, the whole works.  The military wing of Hezbollah regularly acts like a terror organization.  Over the years though, Hezbollah has spread out and does a wide variety of other stuff . . . as mentioned, they're quite politically active in Lebanon.  They run many hospitals and medical clinics, they operate social programs, schools, agricultural centers that help farmers with training/problems, and are responsible for many economic and infrastructure projects running in Lebanon.  They even run garbage collection in some areas.

Hezbollah is a designated terrorist organization and some of the group is definitely involved in terrorist acts . . . but there are also many members who don't touch terrorist stuff.  This is similar to how many in the current Israeli government have explicitly called for war crimes to be performed against Palestinians in Gaza.  Grouping all Israelis together with those advocating for genocide is equally unfair.

If it turns out that there were 20 civilian (meaning non-Hezbollah members) that were harmed, but 2800 Hezbollah members were casualties, then would you say it was a "good" attack?

I guess it would depend.  If the 2800 Hezbollah members who were casualties are doctors, construction workers, teachers, garbage collectors, and children . . . would you still say it's a good attack?  The goal should be to attack the military wing of Hezbollah, not the civilian/political wing.  It's not at all clear that Israel did this with their bombings.

I guess I'm having trouble with what you want: can you articulate what is allowed? What should Israel do against Hezbollah's repeated rocket attacks? Just shrug a bit? How should Israel deal with Hezbollah? It seems this attack was a perfect response.

Israel should deal with Hezbollah in a way consistent with the Geneva conventions.  Saying that every dead member of Hezbollah is good because they're terrorists is no different than saying that every dead Israeli is good because they're war criminals.

It's important to remember that many of these enemies of Israel were caused by overwhelming military force* and conscious decisions to undermine peace**.  Long term, it doesn't seem likely that continued over the top military action and unwillingness to negotiate for peace in good faith will ever make the situation better.

*

When we entered Lebanon … there was no Hezbollah. We were accepted with perfumed rice and flowers by the Shia in the south. It was our presence there that created Hezbollah.

**Prior to the Oct 7 attacks, Netanyahu supported Hamas for years directly funding them and undermining less extreme Palestinian groups as part of a general policy to undermine peace.

[GuitarStv]

Moussad and members of the IDF hid explosives in pagers and triggered them to go off in crowded public areas (including shopping centers and funerals).

Can you quote the source that IDF deliberately "triggered them to go off in crowded public areas"?  Because that sounds like you adding hyperbole to distort factual information.

My source is reality?  I mean, you don't need to talk to the IDF . . . you can watch videos of their handiwork:

Pager detonated in the middle of a supermarket - https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2024/sep/18/cctv-captures-pagers-simultaneously-exploding-across-lebanon-video-report

Walkie talkie being blown up in the middle of a crowded funeral - https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/18/world/video/walkie-talkie-explosion-lebanon-digvid

So, either the IDF was indiscriminately triggering them to go off regardless of the people around . . . or they were deliberately targeting civilians.  Either way it's hard to read as anything but terrorism.

You claimed IDF "triggered them to go off in crowded public areas (including shopping centers and funerals)", meaning the goal was to trigger explosions in public.  No source for that.  And now you include a similar claim, again with no source, that they might be "deliberately targeting civilians".

The IDF triggered the explosives.  The explosives went off in shopping centers and at crowded funerals.  These are established facts - we have the video evidence.

I don't know if Israel deliberately targeted civilians.  I do know that if they weren't deliberately targeting civilians, they weren't careful about avoiding civilian casualties.

As others have shown, the exploding pagers purchased and used by Hezbollah.  Not civilians, but terrorists.  It's interesting that you don't care about the difference.

Slapping a label on a large group of people is very convenient.  It's simplistic though, and often misses the truth.  I've already mentioned - there's a large military wing of Hezbollah that acts as a terrorist organization.  There's also a large political wing that consists of doctors, construction workers, and garbage men.  Lumping them all together certainly makes military actions a lot easier, but it's fundamentally wrong.  It's no different than saying that all Israelis are pro-genocide just because many members of the current Israeli government have advocated for and are currently involved in perpetrating genocide in Gaza right now.

For the supporters of Israel in the US . . . if a bunch of folks from Yemen planted bombs and blew up cellphones they thought might belong to American soldiers indiscriminately wounding anyone in the vicinity wouldn't you call that terrorism, and the people responsible terrorists?

Why are you equating American soldiers with terrorists?

That wasn't really my goal*.  I was trying to give an example that hits closer to home of what it would feel like if a foreign power decided to randomly bomb people (who may or may not belong to the military wing) in your country without care taken to avoid civilian casualties.




* But you raise an interesting point.  Over history the US government (particularly the CIA branch, but also many military actions) has been involved in many actions that meet the definition of 'terrorist'.  If you lump all members of the US government together (as you're lumping all members of Hezbollah together) then all American soldiers, all engineers who design American weapons, all doctors who work on American soldiers, all politicians who are involved in American military actions - even the people who pick up the garbage of servicemen would have to be considered just as bad as the servicemen torturing civilian children held without due process in Guantanamo Bay.

I don't think doing that is fair or reasonable at all.

[waltworks]

This seems like an operation that would be most useful if you were imminently making a larger conventional military attack - temporarily cripple the leadership and communications, then roll in.

Given that it doesn't appear that was the goal, I'd say it's more likely just sort of pointless revenge (or Netanyahu trying to make sure peace talks don't get serious). Hezbollah members who got blinded or maimed are not going to stop fighting Israel and launching a missile can be done just fine with one hand.

It reminds me of the robot machine gun assassination a few years ago. Killing a top nuclear scientist sounds great on paper, but the science and engineering behind building a nuke is VERY well known at this point. You can kill a ton of scientists and Iran can still make a nuke anytime they have enough enriched uranium, full stop. So what's the point of assassinating the guy?

Same with hacking all the Iranian gas pumps, assassinating the Hamas guy in Iran, etc, etc, etc.  The James Bond-eque stuff is impressive but what's the actual strategic goal behind any of it? None of these assassinations has had any positive effect on the overall conflict for Israel as far as I can tell.

-W

[dividendman]

This seems like an operation that would be most useful if you were imminently making a larger conventional military attack - temporarily cripple the leadership and communications, then roll in.

Given that it doesn't appear that was the goal, I'd say it's more likely just sort of pointless revenge (or Netanyahu trying to make sure peace talks don't get serious). Hezbollah members who got blinded or maimed are not going to stop fighting Israel and launching a missile can be done just fine with one hand.

It reminds me of the robot machine gun assassination a few years ago. Killing a top nuclear scientist sounds great on paper, but the science and engineering behind building a nuke is VERY well known at this point. You can kill a ton of scientists and Iran can still make a nuke anytime they have enough enriched uranium, full stop. So what's the point of assassinating the guy?

Same with hacking all the Iranian gas pumps, assassinating the Hamas guy in Iran, etc, etc, etc.  The James Bond-eque stuff is impressive but what's the actual strategic goal behind any of it? None of these assassinations has had any positive effect on the overall conflict for Israel as far as I can tell.

-W

The going theory is that Israeli intelligence was under the impression that Hezbollah was about to discover the operation, so it was a "use it or lose it" situation, so they used it.

[dividendman]

@GuitarStv I guess the difference between us here is that you think members of a terrorist organization are not fair targets if they are not actually firing weapons, and I think all members are fair targets. They have joined a group that is a terrorist organization.

What do you think of US army cooks, clerks, "garbage men" and various other roles who don't engage in combat? Are they fair targets or not? Is it only people with weapons in their hands? Note that I think they're all fair targets because they have joined a combatant force - the US army.

The way I view Hezbollah is that it's an army. Sure, they've got doctors and cooks etc. but the primary goal is combat, so they're all fair targets. On top of that, they're a designated terrorist organization and have been informed of such by various governments. Note that not all groups in Lebanon are designated terrorist organizations.

Anyway, you will be happy now that Israel is moving to the more standard "bomb a structure with some terrorists in it" method which results in far more collateral damage but is a more conventional targeting practice.

[GuitarStv]

@GuitarStv I guess the difference between us here is that you think members of a terrorist organization are not fair targets if they are not actually firing weapons, and I think all members are fair targets. They have joined a group that is a terrorist organization.

What do you think of US army cooks, clerks, "garbage men" and various other roles who don't engage in combat? Are they fair targets or not? Is it only people with weapons in their hands? Note that I think they're all fair targets because they have joined a combatant force - the US army.

The way I view Hezbollah is that it's an army. Sure, they've got doctors and cooks etc. but the primary goal is combat, so they're all fair targets. On top of that, they're a designated terrorist organization and have been informed of such by various governments. Note that not all groups in Lebanon are designated terrorist organizations.

Anyway, you will be happy now that Israel is moving to the more standard "bomb a structure with some terrorists in it" method which results in far more collateral damage but is a more conventional targeting practice.

The guy paid by Hezbollah to build roads in Lebanon who has nothing to do with fighting is part of a terrorist organization in the same way the Israeli civilian is responsible for the genocide being committed in Gaza.  Both are equally (in)valid military targets.

I understand that you view Hezbollah as an army.  That's the narrative that has been used to justify killing non-combatants.  I'm telling you that that's not really a valid way to view the organization.  There's absolutely an organized military wing responsible for terrorist actions - they're valid military targets.  But there's also a political non-military wing that isn't really involved in military actions.  When you bomb people who aren't combatants you create significantly more hate against you.  Applying a blanket term of 'terrorist' to try to legalize your way out of the moral quagmire doesn't change this.  It's exactly the same logic that terrorists have always used to justify their attacks against civilians - they're evil, they're the enemy, the other, they're animals/not really people.

[ChpBstrd]

Uh... how many of us are reading this on Chinese-made smartphones and PCs?

[GuitarStv]

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/09/exploding-pagers-and-radios-terrifying-violation-international-law-say-un

The UN seems to agree with my read on the situation, and seems to indicate that this use of booby traps is another violation of international law by Israel:

“To the extent that international humanitarian law applies, at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby,” the experts said. “Simultaneous attacks by thousands of devices would inevitably violate humanitarian law, by failing to verify each target, and distinguish between protected civilians and those who could potentially be attacked for taking a direct part in hostilities.

“Such attacks could constitute war crimes of murder, attacking civilians, and launching indiscriminate attacks, in addition to violating the right to life,” the experts said.

Humanitarian law additionally prohibits the use of booby-traps disguised as apparently harmless portable objects where specifically designed and constructed with explosives – and this could include a modified civilian pager, the experts said. A booby-trap is a device designed to kill or injure, that functions unexpectedly when a person performs an apparently safe act, such as answering a pager.

“It is also a war crime to commit violence intended to spread terror among civilians, including to intimidate or deter them from supporting an adversary,” the experts warned. “A climate of fear now pervades everyday life in Lebanon,” they said.

[dividendman]

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/09/exploding-pagers-and-radios-terrifying-violation-international-law-say-un

The UN seems to agree with my read on the situation, and seems to indicate that this use of booby traps is another violation of international law by Israel:

“To the extent that international humanitarian law applies, at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby,” the experts said. “Simultaneous attacks by thousands of devices would inevitably violate humanitarian law, by failing to verify each target, and distinguish between protected civilians and those who could potentially be attacked for taking a direct part in hostilities.

“Such attacks could constitute war crimes of murder, attacking civilians, and launching indiscriminate attacks, in addition to violating the right to life,” the experts said.

Humanitarian law additionally prohibits the use of booby-traps disguised as apparently harmless portable objects where specifically designed and constructed with explosives – and this could include a modified civilian pager, the experts said. A booby-trap is a device designed to kill or injure, that functions unexpectedly when a person performs an apparently safe act, such as answering a pager.

“It is also a war crime to commit violence intended to spread terror among civilians, including to intimidate or deter them from supporting an adversary,” the experts warned. “A climate of fear now pervades everyday life in Lebanon,” they said.

The UN is a bullshit organization that has an anti-Israel bias. The world would be a better place without it. Just last year Iran was the chair of the UN Human Rights Council - hilarious.

[reeshau]

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/09/exploding-pagers-and-radios-terrifying-violation-international-law-say-un

The UN seems to agree with my read on the situation, and seems to indicate that this use of booby traps is another violation of international law by Israel:

“To the extent that international humanitarian law applies, at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby,” the experts said. “Simultaneous attacks by thousands of devices would inevitably violate humanitarian law, by failing to verify each target, and distinguish between protected civilians and those who could potentially be attacked for taking a direct part in hostilities.

“Such attacks could constitute war crimes of murder, attacking civilians, and launching indiscriminate attacks, in addition to violating the right to life,” the experts said.

Humanitarian law additionally prohibits the use of booby-traps disguised as apparently harmless portable objects where specifically designed and constructed with explosives – and this could include a modified civilian pager, the experts said. A booby-trap is a device designed to kill or injure, that functions unexpectedly when a person performs an apparently safe act, such as answering a pager.

“It is also a war crime to commit violence intended to spread terror among civilians, including to intimidate or deter them from supporting an adversary,” the experts warned. “A climate of fear now pervades everyday life in Lebanon,” they said.

The UN is a bullshit organization that has an anti-Israel bias. The world would be a better place without it. Just last year Iran was the chair of the UN Human Rights Council - hilarious.

Do you mean the Council President?  I see:

Morocco - this year
Czech Republic - 2023
Argentina - 2022
Fiji - 2021

https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/presidency

[dividendman]

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/09/exploding-pagers-and-radios-terrifying-violation-international-law-say-un

The UN seems to agree with my read on the situation, and seems to indicate that this use of booby traps is another violation of international law by Israel:

“To the extent that international humanitarian law applies, at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby,” the experts said. “Simultaneous attacks by thousands of devices would inevitably violate humanitarian law, by failing to verify each target, and distinguish between protected civilians and those who could potentially be attacked for taking a direct part in hostilities.

“Such attacks could constitute war crimes of murder, attacking civilians, and launching indiscriminate attacks, in addition to violating the right to life,” the experts said.

Humanitarian law additionally prohibits the use of booby-traps disguised as apparently harmless portable objects where specifically designed and constructed with explosives – and this could include a modified civilian pager, the experts said. A booby-trap is a device designed to kill or injure, that functions unexpectedly when a person performs an apparently safe act, such as answering a pager.

“It is also a war crime to commit violence intended to spread terror among civilians, including to intimidate or deter them from supporting an adversary,” the experts warned. “A climate of fear now pervades everyday life in Lebanon,” they said.

The UN is a bullshit organization that has an anti-Israel bias. The world would be a better place without it. Just last year Iran was the chair of the UN Human Rights Council - hilarious.

Do you mean the Council President?  I see:

Morocco - this year
Czech Republic - 2023
Argentina - 2022
Fiji - 2021

https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/presidency

Oh, I guess they were just chairing a two day meeting of the UNHRC in Geneva in 2023... still dumb.

[reeshau]

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/09/exploding-pagers-and-radios-terrifying-violation-international-law-say-un

The UN seems to agree with my read on the situation, and seems to indicate that this use of booby traps is another violation of international law by Israel:

“To the extent that international humanitarian law applies, at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby,” the experts said. “Simultaneous attacks by thousands of devices would inevitably violate humanitarian law, by failing to verify each target, and distinguish between protected civilians and those who could potentially be attacked for taking a direct part in hostilities.

“Such attacks could constitute war crimes of murder, attacking civilians, and launching indiscriminate attacks, in addition to violating the right to life,” the experts said.

Humanitarian law additionally prohibits the use of booby-traps disguised as apparently harmless portable objects where specifically designed and constructed with explosives – and this could include a modified civilian pager, the experts said. A booby-trap is a device designed to kill or injure, that functions unexpectedly when a person performs an apparently safe act, such as answering a pager.

“It is also a war crime to commit violence intended to spread terror among civilians, including to intimidate or deter them from supporting an adversary,” the experts warned. “A climate of fear now pervades everyday life in Lebanon,” they said.

The UN is a bullshit organization that has an anti-Israel bias. The world would be a better place without it. Just last year Iran was the chair of the UN Human Rights Council - hilarious.

Do you mean the Council President?  I see:

Morocco - this year
Czech Republic - 2023
Argentina - 2022
Fiji - 2021

https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/presidency

Oh, I guess they were just chairing a two day meeting of the UNHRC in Geneva in 2023... still dumb.

As dumb as Russia being on the Council in 2022.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/russia-fails-to-win-back-seat-on-human-rights-council-after-un-vote

[dividendman]

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/09/exploding-pagers-and-radios-terrifying-violation-international-law-say-un

The UN seems to agree with my read on the situation, and seems to indicate that this use of booby traps is another violation of international law by Israel:

“To the extent that international humanitarian law applies, at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby,” the experts said. “Simultaneous attacks by thousands of devices would inevitably violate humanitarian law, by failing to verify each target, and distinguish between protected civilians and those who could potentially be attacked for taking a direct part in hostilities.

“Such attacks could constitute war crimes of murder, attacking civilians, and launching indiscriminate attacks, in addition to violating the right to life,” the experts said.

Humanitarian law additionally prohibits the use of booby-traps disguised as apparently harmless portable objects where specifically designed and constructed with explosives – and this could include a modified civilian pager, the experts said. A booby-trap is a device designed to kill or injure, that functions unexpectedly when a person performs an apparently safe act, such as answering a pager.

“It is also a war crime to commit violence intended to spread terror among civilians, including to intimidate or deter them from supporting an adversary,” the experts warned. “A climate of fear now pervades everyday life in Lebanon,” they said.

The UN is a bullshit organization that has an anti-Israel bias. The world would be a better place without it. Just last year Iran was the chair of the UN Human Rights Council - hilarious.

Do you mean the Council President?  I see:

Morocco - this year
Czech Republic - 2023
Argentina - 2022
Fiji - 2021

https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/presidency

Oh, I guess they were just chairing a two day meeting of the UNHRC in Geneva in 2023... still dumb.

As dumb as Russia being on the Council in 2022.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/russia-fails-to-win-back-seat-on-human-rights-council-after-un-vote

Yup. The UN is a virtue signaling organization that actually accomplishes nothing virtuous.

[rocketpj]

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/09/exploding-pagers-and-radios-terrifying-violation-international-law-say-un

The UN seems to agree with my read on the situation, and seems to indicate that this use of booby traps is another violation of international law by Israel:

“To the extent that international humanitarian law applies, at the time of the attacks there was no way of knowing who possessed each device and who was nearby,” the experts said. “Simultaneous attacks by thousands of devices would inevitably violate humanitarian law, by failing to verify each target, and distinguish between protected civilians and those who could potentially be attacked for taking a direct part in hostilities.

“Such attacks could constitute war crimes of murder, attacking civilians, and launching indiscriminate attacks, in addition to violating the right to life,” the experts said.

Humanitarian law additionally prohibits the use of booby-traps disguised as apparently harmless portable objects where specifically designed and constructed with explosives – and this could include a modified civilian pager, the experts said. A booby-trap is a device designed to kill or injure, that functions unexpectedly when a person performs an apparently safe act, such as answering a pager.

“It is also a war crime to commit violence intended to spread terror among civilians, including to intimidate or deter them from supporting an adversary,” the experts warned. “A climate of fear now pervades everyday life in Lebanon,” they said.

The UN is a bullshit organization that has an anti-Israel bias. The world would be a better place without it. Just last year Iran was the chair of the UN Human Rights Council - hilarious.

Maybe, but it's stated purpose was and remains to prevent another world war by forcing even the worst enemies to talk to each other instead.  There are times when the US hates that (pre-invasion of Iraq, for example) but the net result has been working so far.

Getting people and countries to talk to each other is vastly better than killing each other.  'Jaw jaw is better than war war'.  Right now we have the longest stretch of time in the last 2000 years that an army has not crossed the Rhine River.  I think that's an unambiguously good thing.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

As others have shown, the exploding pagers purchased and used by Hezbollah.  Not civilians, but terrorists.  It's interesting that you don't care about the difference.

Slapping a label on a large group of people is very convenient.  It's simplistic though, and often misses the truth.  I've already mentioned - there's a large military wing of Hezbollah that acts as a terrorist organization.  There's also a large political wing that consists of doctors, construction workers, and garbage men.  Lumping them all together certainly makes military actions a lot easier, but it's fundamentally wrong.  It's no different than saying that all Israelis are pro-genocide just because many members of the current Israeli government have advocated for and are currently involved in perpetrating genocide in Gaza right now.

I think your point is that pagers were distributed to both the political and military wings of Hezbollah, and that it was unfair to target the political wing.  They are not independent groups.  Hezbollah's military wing has previously taken control of Lebanese cities in order to support its political wing.  I haven't investigated their finances, but I'm confident both wings pool money and resources.

As to Hezbollah/Hizballah not being a terrorist organization:

"The US State Department designated Hizballah as a foreign terrorist organization in October 1997. More than 60 other countries and organizations, including the EU, the Arab League, and the Gulf Cooperation Council, have also designated Hizballah—either in part or in its entirety—as a terrorist group."
https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/lebanese_hizballah_fto.html

[GuitarStv]

As others have shown, the exploding pagers purchased and used by Hezbollah.  Not civilians, but terrorists.  It's interesting that you don't care about the difference.

Slapping a label on a large group of people is very convenient.  It's simplistic though, and often misses the truth.  I've already mentioned - there's a large military wing of Hezbollah that acts as a terrorist organization.  There's also a large political wing that consists of doctors, construction workers, and garbage men.  Lumping them all together certainly makes military actions a lot easier, but it's fundamentally wrong.  It's no different than saying that all Israelis are pro-genocide just because many members of the current Israeli government have advocated for and are currently involved in perpetrating genocide in Gaza right now.

I think your point is that pagers were distributed to both the political and military wings of Hezbollah, and that it was unfair to target the political wing.  They are not independent groups.  Hezbollah's military wing has previously taken control of Lebanese cities in order to support its political wing.  I haven't investigated their finances, but I'm confident both wings pool money and resources.

As to Hezbollah/Hizballah not being a terrorist organization:

"The US State Department designated Hizballah as a foreign terrorist organization in October 1997. More than 60 other countries and organizations, including the EU, the Arab League, and the Gulf Cooperation Council, have also designated Hizballah—either in part or in its entirety—as a terrorist group."
https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/lebanese_hizballah_fto.html

Yeah, parts (large parts) of Hezbollah absolutely do act as a terror organization.  They attack with no regard for civilians or specifically targeting civilians.  That's why they were designated a terror organization.  But parts of Israel's military and security services also act as terror organizations (like when they organized and ran the terror organization FLLF in Lebanon in the '80s, the assassinations of multiple civilain Iranian nuclear scientists, funding/training/organizing the MEK in Iran - a designated terror organization according to the US, casual violence against the civilian Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza, setting off pager and cellphone bombs with no regard for civilians in Lebanon, etc.).  We've just decided when Israel does it they're acting as good terrorists so don't get the official label.

If you're going to say that every member of an organization that regularly perpetrates terrorist acts is a terrorist and open to military attack, fine.  But by doing that you would have to group all of Israel in there to be consistent.  That doesn't seem reasonable to me.  It's also why I don't think it's reasonable to group civilians who have nothing to do with terror in Hezbollah with militants.

[dividendman]

As others have shown, the exploding pagers purchased and used by Hezbollah.  Not civilians, but terrorists.  It's interesting that you don't care about the difference.

Slapping a label on a large group of people is very convenient.  It's simplistic though, and often misses the truth.  I've already mentioned - there's a large military wing of Hezbollah that acts as a terrorist organization.  There's also a large political wing that consists of doctors, construction workers, and garbage men.  Lumping them all together certainly makes military actions a lot easier, but it's fundamentally wrong.  It's no different than saying that all Israelis are pro-genocide just because many members of the current Israeli government have advocated for and are currently involved in perpetrating genocide in Gaza right now.

I think your point is that pagers were distributed to both the political and military wings of Hezbollah, and that it was unfair to target the political wing.  They are not independent groups.  Hezbollah's military wing has previously taken control of Lebanese cities in order to support its political wing.  I haven't investigated their finances, but I'm confident both wings pool money and resources.

As to Hezbollah/Hizballah not being a terrorist organization:

"The US State Department designated Hizballah as a foreign terrorist organization in October 1997. More than 60 other countries and organizations, including the EU, the Arab League, and the Gulf Cooperation Council, have also designated Hizballah—either in part or in its entirety—as a terrorist group."
https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/lebanese_hizballah_fto.html

Yeah, parts (large parts) of Hezbollah absolutely do act as a terror organization.  They attack with no regard for civilians or specifically targeting civilians.  That's why they were designated a terror organization.  But parts of Israel's military and security services also act as terror organizations (like when they organized and ran the terror organization FLLF in Lebanon in the '80s, the assassinations of multiple civilain Iranian nuclear scientists, funding/training/organizing the MEK in Iran - a designated terror organization according to the US, casual violence against the civilian Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza, setting off pager and cellphone bombs with no regard for civilians in Lebanon, etc.).  We've just decided when Israel does it they're acting as good terrorists so don't get the official label.

If you're going to say that every member of an organization that regularly perpetrates terrorist acts is a terrorist and open to military attack, fine.  But by doing that you would have to group all of Israel in there to be consistent.  That doesn't seem reasonable to me.  It's also why I don't think it's reasonable to group civilians who have nothing to do with terror in Hezbollah with militants.

A big difference is that Israel is a state actor, Hezbollah isn't. This is why I don't consider Iranian civilians legitimate targets, because Iran has a marked military. So does Israel. This way it is possible to distinguish between military and non-military personnel. Hezbollah doesn't. They have some folks in uniform sometimes but the vast majority lurk in the shadows. It's easy to target the Israeli military because 90+% of them are in uniform and labelled buildings/tanks/structures.

Also, Israel just killed Ibrahim Aqil, who was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US military personnel. No "thank you" or "justice has been served" from the feckless Biden administration - disgraceful.

[GuitarStv]

As others have shown, the exploding pagers purchased and used by Hezbollah.  Not civilians, but terrorists.  It's interesting that you don't care about the difference.

Slapping a label on a large group of people is very convenient.  It's simplistic though, and often misses the truth.  I've already mentioned - there's a large military wing of Hezbollah that acts as a terrorist organization.  There's also a large political wing that consists of doctors, construction workers, and garbage men.  Lumping them all together certainly makes military actions a lot easier, but it's fundamentally wrong.  It's no different than saying that all Israelis are pro-genocide just because many members of the current Israeli government have advocated for and are currently involved in perpetrating genocide in Gaza right now.

I think your point is that pagers were distributed to both the political and military wings of Hezbollah, and that it was unfair to target the political wing.  They are not independent groups.  Hezbollah's military wing has previously taken control of Lebanese cities in order to support its political wing.  I haven't investigated their finances, but I'm confident both wings pool money and resources.

As to Hezbollah/Hizballah not being a terrorist organization:

"The US State Department designated Hizballah as a foreign terrorist organization in October 1997. More than 60 other countries and organizations, including the EU, the Arab League, and the Gulf Cooperation Council, have also designated Hizballah—either in part or in its entirety—as a terrorist group."
https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/lebanese_hizballah_fto.html

Yeah, parts (large parts) of Hezbollah absolutely do act as a terror organization.  They attack with no regard for civilians or specifically targeting civilians.  That's why they were designated a terror organization.  But parts of Israel's military and security services also act as terror organizations (like when they organized and ran the terror organization FLLF in Lebanon in the '80s, the assassinations of multiple civilain Iranian nuclear scientists, funding/training/organizing the MEK in Iran - a designated terror organization according to the US, casual violence against the civilian Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza, setting off pager and cellphone bombs with no regard for civilians in Lebanon, etc.).  We've just decided when Israel does it they're acting as good terrorists so don't get the official label.

If you're going to say that every member of an organization that regularly perpetrates terrorist acts is a terrorist and open to military attack, fine.  But by doing that you would have to group all of Israel in there to be consistent.  That doesn't seem reasonable to me.  It's also why I don't think it's reasonable to group civilians who have nothing to do with terror in Hezbollah with militants.

A big difference is that Israel is a state actor, Hezbollah isn't. This is why I don't consider Iranian civilians legitimate targets, because Iran has a marked military. So does Israel. This way it is possible to distinguish between military and non-military personnel. Hezbollah doesn't. They have some folks in uniform sometimes but the vast majority lurk in the shadows. It's easy to target the Israeli military because 90+% of them are in uniform and labelled buildings/tanks/structures.

Also, Israel just killed Ibrahim Aqil, who was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US military personnel. No "thank you" or "justice has been served" from the feckless Biden administration - disgraceful.

When Israel (the state actor) is using spies to covertly train, arm, and plan the assassination of Iranian civilians who were not military members . . . you don't consider this 'lurking in the shadows'?  What do you call it when Israel distinguishes between military and non-military personnel, and chooses to kill the non-military ones?

Is there not a double standard being advocated here?

[dividendman]

A big difference is that Israel is a state actor, Hezbollah isn't. This is why I don't consider Iranian civilians legitimate targets, because Iran has a marked military. So does Israel. This way it is possible to distinguish between military and non-military personnel. Hezbollah doesn't. They have some folks in uniform sometimes but the vast majority lurk in the shadows. It's easy to target the Israeli military because 90+% of them are in uniform and labelled buildings/tanks/structures.

Also, Israel just killed Ibrahim Aqil, who was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US military personnel. No "thank you" or "justice has been served" from the feckless Biden administration - disgraceful.

When Israel (the state actor) is using spies to covertly train, arm, and plan the assassination of Iranian civilians who were not military members . . . you don't consider this 'lurking in the shadows'?  What do you call it when Israel distinguishes between military and non-military personnel, and chooses to kill the non-military ones?

Is there not a double standard being advocated here?

There's a bit of a double standard, but 99%+ of Israeli strikes are by the military and they don't get many casualties through covert actions, a couple people here and there. Is that good? No. Hezbollah on the other hand has the opposite ratio.

[GuitarStv]

A big difference is that Israel is a state actor, Hezbollah isn't. This is why I don't consider Iranian civilians legitimate targets, because Iran has a marked military. So does Israel. This way it is possible to distinguish between military and non-military personnel. Hezbollah doesn't. They have some folks in uniform sometimes but the vast majority lurk in the shadows. It's easy to target the Israeli military because 90+% of them are in uniform and labelled buildings/tanks/structures.

Also, Israel just killed Ibrahim Aqil, who was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US military personnel. No "thank you" or "justice has been served" from the feckless Biden administration - disgraceful.

When Israel (the state actor) is using spies to covertly train, arm, and plan the assassination of Iranian civilians who were not military members . . . you don't consider this 'lurking in the shadows'?  What do you call it when Israel distinguishes between military and non-military personnel, and chooses to kill the non-military ones?

Is there not a double standard being advocated here?

There's a bit of a double standard, but 99%+ of Israeli strikes are by the military and they don't get many casualties through covert actions, a couple people here and there. Is that good? No. Hezbollah on the other hand has the opposite ratio.

Not sure I understand what point you're getting at here.

Due largely to foreign funding from the West, Israel is the most dominant military force in the middle east.   They can use airstrikes to bomb whatever they want in neighbouring countries with relative impunity.  Directly attacking Israel in this way is impossible for their weaker and worse equipped enemies.  This would seem to reflect the power disparity more than anything else, no?

[dividendman]

A big difference is that Israel is a state actor, Hezbollah isn't. This is why I don't consider Iranian civilians legitimate targets, because Iran has a marked military. So does Israel. This way it is possible to distinguish between military and non-military personnel. Hezbollah doesn't. They have some folks in uniform sometimes but the vast majority lurk in the shadows. It's easy to target the Israeli military because 90+% of them are in uniform and labelled buildings/tanks/structures.

Also, Israel just killed Ibrahim Aqil, who was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US military personnel. No "thank you" or "justice has been served" from the feckless Biden administration - disgraceful.

When Israel (the state actor) is using spies to covertly train, arm, and plan the assassination of Iranian civilians who were not military members . . . you don't consider this 'lurking in the shadows'?  What do you call it when Israel distinguishes between military and non-military personnel, and chooses to kill the non-military ones?

Is there not a double standard being advocated here?

There's a bit of a double standard, but 99%+ of Israeli strikes are by the military and they don't get many casualties through covert actions, a couple people here and there. Is that good? No. Hezbollah on the other hand has the opposite ratio.

Not sure I understand what point you're getting at here.

Due largely to foreign funding from the West, Israel is the most dominant military force in the middle east.   They can use airstrikes to bomb whatever they want in neighbouring countries with relative impunity.  Directly attacking Israel in this way is impossible for their weaker and worse equipped enemies.  This would seem to reflect the power disparity more than anything else, no?

I'm simply saying Israel doesn't operate in the shadows the vast majority of the time, as opposed to their adversaries who almost all uniformly do, hence the double standard is not quite right.

Israel should invade Southern Lebanon and destroy Hezbollah like they are attempting to do with Hamas in Gaza. Hezbollah decided to interject themselves as a belligerent in a conflict that didn't involve them and they should pay for that.

[ChpBstrd]

It is becoming clearer that Israel will have an all-out war with Hezbollah.

Like the U.S. after 9/11, the leadership views the 10/7 terror attack as a fleeting opportunity to change the geopolitical landscape and reverse certain worsening military trends, all while catching their enemies off guard. A seizure of land and ethnic cleansing of southern Lebanon are not off the table.

To extend the 9/11 metaphor further, it was reports of successes in Afghanistan circa 2002 that led the U.S. to invade Iraq in 2003. Israel is on the same timeline, moving from Gaza in 2024 to Lebanon in 2025. These bombings and assassinations are softening up the enemy and closing out intelligence leads ahead of an invasion.

Demolition of the PA in the West Bank could also occur, returning Israel to the status quo which existed before the Oslo Accords of the 1990s - an arrangement right-wing Israelis have never been comfortable with.

Biden and Harris can't do anything about it right now, without affecting the election. Trump would probably cheer the war along. However a first-term President Harris would face tough choices about setting politically unpopular boundaries and red lines for the withdraw of US support.

The cost of U.S. complicity is that other regional actors will ramp up support for anti-Israeli forces. Decades of U.S. diplomatic effort could go down the toilet as Russia supports a new anti-Israeli axis with Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, and the Persian Gulf countries - possibly even drawing in NATO member Turkyie'. European NATO countries, faced with the risk of an oil embargo, pull back support for Israel, creating fractures with the U.S.

Imagine the Turks blocking all action or progress in NATO until the U.S. cuts off aid to Israel. Imagine the Egyptians blocking cargo through the Suez that is destined for any country on a list of supporters of Israel. Imagine Iraq, Kuwait, the UAE, Djibouti and/or the Saudis expelling all U.S. forces.

Israel's wars could be a bloodbath for U.S. interests, in addition to killing millions of people throughout the region. Basically, the Arabs control the oil and supply lines that NATO needs to keep Russia at bay. How many NATO members would sanction Israel if that was at stake.

TL;DR: consider buying gasoline futures

[GuitarStv]

A big difference is that Israel is a state actor, Hezbollah isn't. This is why I don't consider Iranian civilians legitimate targets, because Iran has a marked military. So does Israel. This way it is possible to distinguish between military and non-military personnel. Hezbollah doesn't. They have some folks in uniform sometimes but the vast majority lurk in the shadows. It's easy to target the Israeli military because 90+% of them are in uniform and labelled buildings/tanks/structures.

Also, Israel just killed Ibrahim Aqil, who was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US military personnel. No "thank you" or "justice has been served" from the feckless Biden administration - disgraceful.

When Israel (the state actor) is using spies to covertly train, arm, and plan the assassination of Iranian civilians who were not military members . . . you don't consider this 'lurking in the shadows'?  What do you call it when Israel distinguishes between military and non-military personnel, and chooses to kill the non-military ones?

Is there not a double standard being advocated here?

There's a bit of a double standard, but 99%+ of Israeli strikes are by the military and they don't get many casualties through covert actions, a couple people here and there. Is that good? No. Hezbollah on the other hand has the opposite ratio.

Not sure I understand what point you're getting at here.

Due largely to foreign funding from the West, Israel is the most dominant military force in the middle east.   They can use airstrikes to bomb whatever they want in neighbouring countries with relative impunity.  Directly attacking Israel in this way is impossible for their weaker and worse equipped enemies.  This would seem to reflect the power disparity more than anything else, no?

I'm simply saying Israel doesn't operate in the shadows the vast majority of the time, as opposed to their adversaries who almost all uniformly do, hence the double standard is not quite right.

Yes, but isn't this largely just an indication of the massive power disparity between Israel and pretty much all of their enemies?  Israel is the largest and best equipped military force in the area by quite a lot.  Against an overwhelmingly stronger foe, directly attacking is suicide . . . so smaller forces either resort to guerilla tactics or are obliterated.  In effect, you seem to be saying here that because they're not as powerful as Israel they should be treated differently.

Israel should invade Southern Lebanon and destroy Hezbollah like they are attempting to do with Hamas in Gaza. Hezbollah decided to interject themselves as a belligerent in a conflict that didn't involve them and they should pay for that.

Hezbollah exists entirely because of Israel invading Lebanon and occupying it in order to fight the PLO in the '80s.

"When we entered Lebanon … there was no Hezbollah. We were accepted with perfumed rice and flowers by the Shia in the south. It was our presence there that created Hezbollah" - former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak

Wouldn't the ultimate outcome of this invasion be the same as last time (no peace, probably more terrorist groups made up of people who hate Israel?  (And that doesn't even mention the Gaza part that you seem so enamored of . . . where the Genocide being perpetrated against the Palestinians via premeditated and fully intentional starvation and deprivation of supplies guarantees generations of hatred for the future.)

[Michael in ABQ]

So Iran is weaker than Israel? They're bankrolling all the groups opposed to Israel - Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, etc. Iran has a population of approximately 80 million compared to less than 10 million for Israel. Iran's GDP is a bit smaller at $400 Billion vs. $564 Billion but Iran has a military with over 500k active members vs. 170k for Israel. So is it really an unfair fight for Israel when they're facing Iran + significant chunks of Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and Iraq?

[MustacheAndaHalf]

...
A big difference is that Israel is a state actor, Hezbollah isn't. This is why I don't consider Iranian civilians legitimate targets, because Iran has a marked military. So does Israel. This way it is possible to distinguish between military and non-military personnel. Hezbollah doesn't. They have some folks in uniform sometimes but the vast majority lurk in the shadows. It's easy to target the Israeli military because 90+% of them are in uniform and labelled buildings/tanks/structures.

Also, Israel just killed Ibrahim Aqil, who was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US military personnel. No "thank you" or "justice has been served" from the feckless Biden administration - disgraceful.

When Israel (the state actor) is using spies to covertly train, arm, and plan the assassination of Iranian civilians who were not military members . . . you don't consider this 'lurking in the shadows'?  What do you call it when Israel distinguishes between military and non-military personnel, and chooses to kill the non-military ones?

Is there not a double standard being advocated here?

Nuclear engineers working on Iran's nuclear weapons program are not mere civilians.

[GuitarStv]

So Iran is weaker than Israel? They're bankrolling all the groups opposed to Israel - Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, etc. Iran has a population of approximately 80 million compared to less than 10 million for Israel. Iran's GDP is a bit smaller at $400 Billion vs. $564 Billion but Iran has a military with over 500k active members vs. 170k for Israel. So is it really an unfair fight for Israel when they're facing Iran + significant chunks of Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and Iraq?

Yes.  I mean, when you're talking about people there are fewer in the Israeli military than Iran's army . . . but technologically there is no comparison at all.  Israel's technology (largely purchased and donated) from America) gives them an insurmountable edge in a head to head fight.

...
A big difference is that Israel is a state actor, Hezbollah isn't. This is why I don't consider Iranian civilians legitimate targets, because Iran has a marked military. So does Israel. This way it is possible to distinguish between military and non-military personnel. Hezbollah doesn't. They have some folks in uniform sometimes but the vast majority lurk in the shadows. It's easy to target the Israeli military because 90+% of them are in uniform and labelled buildings/tanks/structures.

Also, Israel just killed Ibrahim Aqil, who was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US military personnel. No "thank you" or "justice has been served" from the feckless Biden administration - disgraceful.

When Israel (the state actor) is using spies to covertly train, arm, and plan the assassination of Iranian civilians who were not military members . . . you don't consider this 'lurking in the shadows'?  What do you call it when Israel distinguishes between military and non-military personnel, and chooses to kill the non-military ones?

Is there not a double standard being advocated here?

Nuclear engineers working on Iran's nuclear weapons program are not mere civilians.

Some likely were, but not all the scientists assassinated were working on Iran's weapons program.  Moussad has a history of killing the wrong people while performing these extra-judicial murders and getting away with it/having the Israeli government attempt to cover it up (see the murder of waiter Ahmed Bouchikhi as one of the rare instances where six of the fifteen Moussad agents involved were caught and convicted in Norway as just one example - Israel was willing to pay some money to the family for the murder, but never admitted their mistake).

I've also got to ask you . . . how far exactly does justifiable killing based on military association go in your eyes?  You've asserted that anyone involved in a nuclear weapons program is not a civilian.  But what if you work in a factory that makes bombs?  What if you work in a factory that produces ammunition, some of which is for sale to the military and some for private use?  What if your factory produces bolts that are used in tank construction?  I'm curious, where exactly do you draw the line?

[MustacheAndaHalf]

...
A big difference is that Israel is a state actor, Hezbollah isn't. This is why I don't consider Iranian civilians legitimate targets, because Iran has a marked military. So does Israel. This way it is possible to distinguish between military and non-military personnel. Hezbollah doesn't. They have some folks in uniform sometimes but the vast majority lurk in the shadows. It's easy to target the Israeli military because 90+% of them are in uniform and labelled buildings/tanks/structures.

Also, Israel just killed Ibrahim Aqil, who was responsible for the 1983 marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US military personnel. No "thank you" or "justice has been served" from the feckless Biden administration - disgraceful.

When Israel (the state actor) is using spies to covertly train, arm, and plan the assassination of Iranian civilians who were not military members . . . you don't consider this 'lurking in the shadows'?  What do you call it when Israel distinguishes between military and non-military personnel, and chooses to kill the non-military ones?

Is there not a double standard being advocated here?

Nuclear engineers working on Iran's nuclear weapons program are not mere civilians.

Some likely were, but not all the scientists assassinated were working on Iran's weapons program.  Moussad has a history of killing the wrong people while performing these extra-judicial murders and getting away with it/having the Israeli government attempt to cover it up (see the murder of waiter Ahmed Bouchikhi as one of the rare instances where six of the fifteen Moussad agents involved were caught and convicted in Norway as just one example - Israel was willing to pay some money to the family for the murder, but never admitted their mistake).

I've also got to ask you . . . how far exactly does justifiable killing based on military association go in your eyes?  You've asserted that anyone involved in a nuclear weapons program is not a civilian.  But what if you work in a factory that makes bombs?  What if you work in a factory that produces ammunition, some of which is for sale to the military and some for private use?  What if your factory produces bolts that are used in tank construction?  I'm curious, where exactly do you draw the line?

Do you agree with my correction, that nuclear engineers are not merely civilians?  Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons.  Iran wants Israel wiped off the map.  You calling nuclear engineers "civilians" needs correcting, because nuclear weapons are not a peaceful civilian enterprise.

I'm aware of multiple Iranian nuclear scientists being assassinated by Mossad, perhaps only the most famous cases.  If you're trying to make a point about the numbers, it would be better to discuss actual numbers.

As to the killing of a waiter in 1973, you left out vital context.  In 1972, the Palestinian militant organization Black September murdered 11 Israeli Olympic athletes.  That is the context for Mossad mistaking someone as the mastermind of that attack.  Mossad killed many members of both the PLO and Black September to avenge the deaths of its Olympic athletes.  When you divide that one waiter's death over the number of militants killed, your mention of a "history of killing the wrong people" rings hollow.  You're cherry picking one death, and ignoring hundreds of Palestinian terrorists and militants all tied to the same event, the same context.

Your list of "what ifs" doesn't mean much until Israel makes a practice of killing people in those roles.  Other than nuclear researchers/scientists/engineers, who does Israel target outside the military?  I haven't looked it up myself, but to me it makes more sense to discuss what happened.