Israel vs Hamas

[Warlord1986]

To hell with Hamas, to hell with Israel's government. There are no heroes here, only victims.
The fact that America supported this slaughter is going to be one of those things kids read about in history books and then cringe at.

[Michael in ABQ]

I can't speak for everyone on the pro-Palestinian side, but from my perspective I do think Hamas's attack was wrong, taking hostages is wrong, and taking money meant for the development of Palestine and using it for war instead is wrong. But they are already a designated terrorist organization, and as far as I know Canada and the US are not selling them weapons or investing in their companies or providing them with funding.

The protesters on campus know that they aren't directly going to convince Israel to stop bombing children and civilians in Gaza, but the pressure is on universities to stop investing in the Israeli war machine and for the US to stop blocking UN resolutions for ceasefires and providing financial and diplomatic support that allows Israel to act with impunity.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels like this conflict was out of sight out of mind for a long time because it didn't impact me directly, but the scale of Israel's retaliation and the number of children and innocents killed, the blocking of aid, the destruction of land, the displacement of civilians has all added up and I don't feel like I can turn a blind eye anymore. I don't want my tax dollars to support the destruction of Palestine and the Palestinian people. I get that Israel feels threatened by Hamas, but it doesn't mean they get to attack innocent people and destroy land and property that doesn't belong to them and block any attempt at independence and self-governance in the name of self-defense.

Yep.  This is pretty much where I'm at.  Fuck Hamas, they are a terrible terrorist organization.  But it has been about 35,000 or so mostly women and children killed in Palestine with at least 70,000 injured in reckless and careless attacks by an IDF whose leaders have repeatedly used dehumanizing language when talking about the Palestinian people.  If not outright genocide, there are certainly war crimes being committed by Israel and I don't want tax dollars going to help them keep at it.

Given that this war is being fought in a densely populated urban area against an organization that has explicitly embraced using human shields, schools, hospitals, and mosques as military installations (in and of itself a war crime) the level of civilian casualties is relatively low to average compared to other wars. Of course, that number of casualties is straight from Hamas and is completely made up as they will claim every fighter killed was an innocent civilian and their counts of women and children is not internally consistent (that happens when you're making up numbers every day).

Contrast this with Russia shelling apartment blocks in Ukrainian cities with no military targets around for miles - just for the sheer terror effect. When Hamas locates a machine gun bunker in a school or a weapons cache in a mosque or a headquarters on the 4th floor of a 6-story building it's nearly impossible to strike those military targets without civilian casualties.

[dang1]

EU nations condemn Hamas for what they describe as use of hospitals, civilians as ‘human shields’

“Hamas is unfortunately using civilian infrastructure and civilians as shields"
https://apnews.com/article/european-union-condemn-hamas-human-shields-2c0d1c04cb38fc4acce37d8d624e1a3f

[PoutineLover]

EU nations condemn Hamas for what they describe as use of hospitals, civilians as ‘human shields’

“Hamas is unfortunately using civilian infrastructure and civilians as shields"
https://apnews.com/article/european-union-condemn-hamas-human-shields-2c0d1c04cb38fc4acce37d8d624e1a3f

Turns out Israel uses AI to determine targets, and allowed 15-20 civilian casualties for just one suspected junior Hamas operative, with a preference for using dumb bombs while they're at home with their families cause that's cheaper and easier. Collateral damage or human shields? Depends on your perspective I guess..
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes

[ATtiny85]

I can't speak for everyone on the pro-Palestinian side, but from my perspective I do think Hamas's attack was wrong, taking hostages is wrong, and taking money meant for the development of Palestine and using it for war instead is wrong. But they are already a designated terrorist organization, and as far as I know Canada and the US are not selling them weapons or investing in their companies or providing them with funding.

The protesters on campus know that they aren't directly going to convince Israel to stop bombing children and civilians in Gaza, but the pressure is on universities to stop investing in the Israeli war machine and for the US to stop blocking UN resolutions for ceasefires and providing financial and diplomatic support that allows Israel to act with impunity.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels like this conflict was out of sight out of mind for a long time because it didn't impact me directly, but the scale of Israel's retaliation and the number of children and innocents killed, the blocking of aid, the destruction of land, the displacement of civilians has all added up and I don't feel like I can turn a blind eye anymore. I don't want my tax dollars to support the destruction of Palestine and the Palestinian people. I get that Israel feels threatened by Hamas, but it doesn't mean they get to attack innocent people and destroy land and property that doesn't belong to them and block any attempt at independence and self-governance in the name of self-defense.

Yep.  This is pretty much where I'm at.  Fuck Hamas, they are a terrible terrorist organization.  But it has been about 35,000 or so mostly women and children killed in Palestine with at least 70,000 injured in reckless and careless attacks by an IDF whose leaders have repeatedly used dehumanizing language when talking about the Palestinian people.  If not outright genocide, there are certainly war crimes being committed by Israel and I don't want tax dollars going to help them keep at it.

A fact that you brought up many posts ago. Glad to see some folks are starting to wake up and see what horrific actions are being taken by Israel.

[dang1]

"One of the strongest predictors of perceiving a hostile climate toward Israel and Jews is the presence of an active Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) group on campus."
https://www.brandeis.edu/cmjs/noteworthy/ssri/hotspots-antisemitism.html

[dang1]

I can't speak for everyone on the pro-Palestinian side, but from my perspective I do think Hamas's attack was wrong, taking hostages is wrong, and taking money meant for the development of Palestine and using it for war instead is wrong. But they are already a designated terrorist organization, and as far as I know Canada and the US are not selling them weapons or investing in their companies or providing them with funding.

The protesters on campus know that they aren't directly going to convince Israel to stop bombing children and civilians in Gaza, but the pressure is on universities to stop investing in the Israeli war machine and for the US to stop blocking UN resolutions for ceasefires and providing financial and diplomatic support that allows Israel to act with impunity.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels like this conflict was out of sight out of mind for a long time because it didn't impact me directly, but the scale of Israel's retaliation and the number of children and innocents killed, the blocking of aid, the destruction of land, the displacement of civilians has all added up and I don't feel like I can turn a blind eye anymore. I don't want my tax dollars to support the destruction of Palestine and the Palestinian people. I get that Israel feels threatened by Hamas, but it doesn't mean they get to attack innocent people and destroy land and property that doesn't belong to them and block any attempt at independence and self-governance in the name of self-defense.

Yep.  This is pretty much where I'm at.  Fuck Hamas, they are a terrible terrorist organization.  But it has been about 35,000 or so mostly women and children killed in Palestine with at least 70,000 injured in reckless and careless attacks by an IDF whose leaders have repeatedly used dehumanizing language when talking about the Palestinian people.  If not outright genocide, there are certainly war crimes being committed by Israel and I don't want tax dollars going to help them keep at it.

Given that this war is being fought in a densely populated urban area against an organization that has explicitly embraced using human shields, schools, hospitals, and mosques as military installations (in and of itself a war crime) the level of civilian casualties is relatively low to average compared to other wars. Of course, that number of casualties is straight from Hamas and is completely made up as they will claim every fighter killed was an innocent civilian and their counts of women and children is not internally consistent (that happens when you're making up numbers every day).

Contrast this with Russia shelling apartment blocks in Ukrainian cities with no military targets around for miles - just for the sheer terror effect. When Hamas locates a machine gun bunker in a school or a weapons cache in a mosque or a headquarters on the 4th floor of a 6-story building it's nearly impossible to strike those military targets without civilian casualties.

also:
“Oct. 17 explosion at Gaza’s Al-Ahli Hospital
medical facility was struck by a Palestinian rocket that went astray”
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3

[GuitarStv]

I can't speak for everyone on the pro-Palestinian side, but from my perspective I do think Hamas's attack was wrong, taking hostages is wrong, and taking money meant for the development of Palestine and using it for war instead is wrong. But they are already a designated terrorist organization, and as far as I know Canada and the US are not selling them weapons or investing in their companies or providing them with funding.

The protesters on campus know that they aren't directly going to convince Israel to stop bombing children and civilians in Gaza, but the pressure is on universities to stop investing in the Israeli war machine and for the US to stop blocking UN resolutions for ceasefires and providing financial and diplomatic support that allows Israel to act with impunity.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels like this conflict was out of sight out of mind for a long time because it didn't impact me directly, but the scale of Israel's retaliation and the number of children and innocents killed, the blocking of aid, the destruction of land, the displacement of civilians has all added up and I don't feel like I can turn a blind eye anymore. I don't want my tax dollars to support the destruction of Palestine and the Palestinian people. I get that Israel feels threatened by Hamas, but it doesn't mean they get to attack innocent people and destroy land and property that doesn't belong to them and block any attempt at independence and self-governance in the name of self-defense.

Yep.  This is pretty much where I'm at.  Fuck Hamas, they are a terrible terrorist organization.  But it has been about 35,000 or so mostly women and children killed in Palestine with at least 70,000 injured in reckless and careless attacks by an IDF whose leaders have repeatedly used dehumanizing language when talking about the Palestinian people.  If not outright genocide, there are certainly war crimes being committed by Israel and I don't want tax dollars going to help them keep at it.

Given that this war is being fought in a densely populated urban area against an organization that has explicitly embraced using human shields, schools, hospitals, and mosques as military installations (in and of itself a war crime) the level of civilian casualties is relatively low to average compared to other wars.

In the first three weeks of the current operation, Swords of Iron, the civilian proportion of total deaths rose to 61%, in what Levy described as “unprecedented killing” for Israeli forces in Gaza. The ratio is significantly higher than the average civilian toll in all the conflicts around the world from the second world war to the 1990s, in which civilians accounted for about half the dead, according to Levy.

“The broad conclusion is that extensive killing of civilians not only contributes nothing to Israel’s security, but that it also contains the foundations for further undermining it,” Levy concluded. “The Gazans who will emerge from the ruins of their homes and the loss of their families will seek revenge that no security arrangements will be able to withstand.”

The study confirms an investigation 10 days ago by the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and the Hebrew-language outlet Local Call, which found Israel was deliberately targeting residential blocks to cause mass civilian casualties in the hope people would turn on their Hamas rulers. The figures will make uneasy reading for the Biden administration, which is facing global criticism and isolation for vetoing a UN security council vote for a ceasefire on Friday.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/09/civilian-toll-israeli-airstrikes-gaza-unprecedented-killing-study

Even using the numbers coming directly from Israel's PR team (saying that they kill about two civilians for every combatant - https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html) it doesn't appear that facts really back up your comments here.

Of course, that number of casualties is straight from Hamas and is completely made up as they will claim every fighter killed was an innocent civilian and their counts of women and children is not internally consistent (that happens when you're making up numbers every day).

I would prefer unbiased reports from journalists in the area for an impartial accounting of what's going on.  Unfortunately, until the Israeli blockade on information from Gaza is lifted we have to use numbers coming from Gaza's hospitals and doctors.  Again, studies seem to indicate that this appears to be a reasonably reliable way to go about getting this information as evidenced by the Lancet's published paper "No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health" - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext.

Contrast this with Russia shelling apartment blocks in Ukrainian cities with no military targets around for miles - just for the sheer terror effect.

It's just not credible at this point to argue that Israel isn't attempting to punish the Palestinian people with their actions.  Israel is currently starving the entire civilian Palestinian population in Gaza (https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/04/09/gaza-israels-imposed-starvation-deadly-children).  They have refused to allow enough aid trucks to get through, and have deliberately bombed aid workers who working closely with the IDF.  This is a clear war crime, no different from the Russian shelling of civilian apartment blocks.  Is hasn't been denied by Israel - in fact the Israeli minister of defense bragged about how that was the plan from the very beginning while dehumanizing Palestinians:

“We are imposing a complete siege.  There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly.”

Israel's stated plan from their minister of defense was to commit war crimes by preventing civilians from getting food and water.  This happened before they even started attacking Hamas in Gaza, and they have carried it through as faithfully as possible despite international condemnation.

When Hamas locates a machine gun bunker in a school or a weapons cache in a mosque or a headquarters on the 4th floor of a 6-story building it's nearly impossible to strike those military targets without civilian casualties.

The aerial bombardment that Israel did at the beginning of the war wasn't striking machine gun bunkers or weapons caches.  It was reckless dumb bomb targeting of low ranking people in Hamas in densely populated areas.  This is (of course) keeping in line with Netanyahu's comments about the IDF in this war:
"They are committed to completely eliminating this evil from the world.  You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember."

So what exactly is the leader of Israel reminding the Israeli military of here?

2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'

Yikes.  Certainly in line with what we've seen of the IDF's actions though.

[dang1]

HamAss firing rockets at aid conduit furthers Gazan’s suffering

“Three Israeli Soldiers Killed in Rocket Attack Claimed by Hamas
The Israeli military said that about 14 rockets and mortars were fired toward Kerem Shalom, a conduit for aid into Gaza”
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/05/world/middleeast/hamas-rocket-kerem-shalom-israel.html


“Hamas's armed wing claimed responsibility on Sunday for an attack on the Kerem Shalom crossing into Gaza that Israel said killed three of its soldiers.
Israel's military said 10 projectiles were launched from Rafah in southern Gaza towards the area of the crossing, which it said was now closed to aid trucks going into the coastal enclave”
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-claims-responsibility-attack-israel-gaza-border-crossing-casualties-2024-05-05/






Maj. Gen. Yifat Tomer Yerushalmi, the Israeli military’s chief advocate, said in a letter to commanders:
“actions and statements, on the part of individuals who do not represent the whole, are contrary to the IDF being a professional, moral and state-based army, and they will no longer be recognized in the IDF,” she said, referring to the Israel Defense Forces, the military’s formal name. “They also cause the state of Israel and the IDF strategic damage in the international arena, the seriousness of which is difficult to overstate.”
..
The letter came a day after Israeli military chief of staff Herzi Halevi issued a separate letter that also reminded commanders of the need to prevent misconduct and law of war violations.

“We must be careful not to use force where it is not required, to distinguish between a terrorist and one who is not, not to take what is not ours—a souvenir or parts of a weapon—and not to shoot revenge videos. We are not on a spree of killing, revenge, or genocide,”
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-military-investigates-soldiers-for-criminal-offenses-in-gaza-war-8fe2d947

[GuitarStv]

Does anyone know the specific details of the ceasefire that Hamas agreed to yesterday?  I'm wondering what caused Israel to reject it.

The best I can find is that it would be a 6-8 week pause in fighting,  Hamas would release all Israeli hostages.  In return Israel was  expected to release some Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails, withdraw its troops from some parts of Gaza, and allow Palestinians to travel from the south to north Gaza.

Not sure what the sticking point was.

[dividendman]

Does anyone know the specific details of the ceasefire that Hamas agreed to yesterday?  I'm wondering what caused Israel to reject it.

The best I can find is that it would be a 6-8 week pause in fighting,  Hamas would release all Israeli hostages.  In return Israel was  expected to release some Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails, withdraw its troops from some parts of Gaza, and allow Palestinians to travel from the south to north Gaza.

Not sure what the sticking point was.

NY post claims that the Israeli's rejected the offer because Hamas agreed to return the hostages, but many are deceased, up to 77 of the 128 remaining hostages, so Israel found this unacceptable. Unsure of the truth around any of these claims though.

[GuitarStv]

Woah.

Biden has threatened to cut Israel off of their weapons if they go into refugee packed Rafah, and acknowledged that Israel's tactics so far in this war have been killing civilians with American provided weapons.  I never thought I'd ever see the day that America talks about not giving Israel military aid.

Crazy.

[Just Joe]

Yay student protestors?

[Kris]

Yay student protestors?

I mean, pretty much. The kids are alright.

[dividendman]

Yay student protestors?

I mean, pretty much. The kids are alright.

Yeah, let's see if they turn out to vote.

[Kris]

Yay student protestors?

I mean, pretty much. The kids are alright.

Yeah, let's see if they turn out to vote.

Yeah. Let’s see if Biden gives them a compelling reason to. Like responding to their clear message.

[ChpBstrd]

Yay student protestors?

I mean, pretty much. The kids are alright.

Yeah, let's see if they turn out to vote.

Spoiler: show

they won't

[dividendman]

Yay student protestors?

I mean, pretty much. The kids are alright.

Yeah, let's see if they turn out to vote.

Yeah. Let’s see if Biden gives them a compelling reason to. Like responding to their clear message.

Cancelling student loans, encouraging clean energy/infrastructure development, etc. disproportionally benefit the young... but he's pro Israel, so oh well, let's get Trump, makes sense.

These young folks tend to vote far less for for any office than other age groups, not just President. Do they really not have a compelling reason to not vote for city council, mayor, state rep etc?

Do these protests actually accomplish anything except possibly encouraging the opposition? If these folks rallied people to vote they'd be much more effective.

Like Occupy Wall Street... over a decade later and there is even more income/wealth inequality than ever and nobody protesting... shouldn't there be more protesting more now than then? The logic eludes me I guess.

And with Israel, the scale and scope of their strikes into Gaza have only increased in the last few weeks, at least according to CNN. Also Biden isn't blocking all weapons, just some of the largest bombs.

Now that school is coming to an end for the season, will we see these folks protesting with the same vigor until the US stops aid to Israel or the schools somehow divest?

[GuitarStv]

Honestly, the protests have already been far more successful than I would have ever guessed possible.  The US has backtracked on their policy of supporting Israel regardless of the actions Israel takes.  There is open criticism of Israel's failing military strategy to remove Hamas by killing civilians at every possible chance by US government officials - something that would have instantly had you branded an antisemite just a year ago.  Progress is slow, but it's heartening when it moves in the right direction.

[blue_green_sparks]

Maybe Harvard shouldn't be accepting truckloads of money from Qatar's Muslim Brotherhood government. China locks up millions of Muslims in labor camps after sterilizing them and Syria kills thousands of Palestinians and what, no huge protests at the lauded institutions? Holy hypocrisy.

Queers for Palestine is like Chickens for KFC. Clueless students. Islamists and Sharia law represses billions of women and gay people all over the globe but let's send the Jews back to Poland or Russia. They are again the problem needing a final solution it seems. Finish the job, right? What was Israel could now be the next Yemen or Iran. Brilliant. What to do with the 400 miles of terrorist tunnels? Nothing ever changes.

[bacchi]

Maybe Harvard shouldn't be accepting truckloads of money from Qatar's Muslim Brotherhood government. China locks up millions of Muslims in labor camps after sterilizing them and Syria kills thousands of Palestinians and what, no huge protests at the lauded institutions? Holy hypocrisy.

Queers for Palestine is like Chickens for KFC. Clueless students. Islamists and Sharia law represses billions of women and gay people all over the globe but let's send the Jews back to Poland or Russia. They are again the problem needing a final solution it seems. Finish the job, right? What was Israel could now be the next Yemen or Iran. Brilliant. What to do with the 400 miles of terrorist tunnels? Nothing ever changes.

So much straw in this post that it could fill a barn.

[GuitarStv]

Maybe Harvard shouldn't be accepting truckloads of money from Qatar's Muslim Brotherhood government. China locks up millions of Muslims in labor camps after sterilizing them and Syria kills thousands of Palestinians and what, no huge protests at the lauded institutions? Holy hypocrisy.

Queers for Palestine is like Chickens for KFC. Clueless students. Islamists and Sharia law represses billions of women and gay people all over the globe but let's send the Jews back to Poland or Russia. They are again the problem needing a final solution it seems. Finish the job, right? What was Israel could now be the next Yemen or Iran. Brilliant. What to do with the 400 miles of terrorist tunnels? Nothing ever changes.

So much straw in this post that it could fill a barn.

I'm confused about the concern for gay people who support the plight of the Palestinian people.

I'm pretty pro-choice.  I have been told by pro-life people that they hate me and want me dead for my viewpoints.  But if the US government started bombing pro-life people to death by the tens of thousands, I really like to think that I'd argue for the pro-life folks who are being killed.  Not because I've suddenly seen the light of the pro-life argument, but because it would be the right thing to do despite the differences we have.

[Phenix]

Maybe Harvard shouldn't be accepting truckloads of money from Qatar's Muslim Brotherhood government. China locks up millions of Muslims in labor camps after sterilizing them and Syria kills thousands of Palestinians and what, no huge protests at the lauded institutions? Holy hypocrisy.

Queers for Palestine is like Chickens for KFC. Clueless students. Islamists and Sharia law represses billions of women and gay people all over the globe but let's send the Jews back to Poland or Russia. They are again the problem needing a final solution it seems. Finish the job, right? What was Israel could now be the next Yemen or Iran. Brilliant. What to do with the 400 miles of terrorist tunnels? Nothing ever changes.

So much straw in this post that it could fill a barn.

I'm confused about the concern for gay people who support the plight of the Palestinian people.

I'm pretty pro-choice.  I have been told by pro-life people that they hate me and want me dead for my viewpoints.  But if the US government started bombing pro-life people to death by the tens of thousands, I really like to think that I'd argue for the pro-life folks who are being killed.  Not because I've suddenly seen the light of the pro-life argument, but because it would be the right thing to do despite the differences we have.

First, there's a huge difference between someone's sexual orientation and someone's opinion on abortion. Opinions change frequently (often depending on what one's political party it telling them to be upset about), sexual orientation doesn't change the same way.

Second, would you expect Jewish college students in America to protest on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of German civilians dying in WWII? If a culture is openly repressing people of your religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., it does seem a little odd to stand up for them.

If these protests do work (they won’t), are these same students going to follow up with protests condemning the repressive actions of Palestinians toward women and gays? These protests aren’t about the Palestinians, they’re about the U.S. support of Israel in any capacity.

[GuitarStv]

Maybe Harvard shouldn't be accepting truckloads of money from Qatar's Muslim Brotherhood government. China locks up millions of Muslims in labor camps after sterilizing them and Syria kills thousands of Palestinians and what, no huge protests at the lauded institutions? Holy hypocrisy.

Queers for Palestine is like Chickens for KFC. Clueless students. Islamists and Sharia law represses billions of women and gay people all over the globe but let's send the Jews back to Poland or Russia. They are again the problem needing a final solution it seems. Finish the job, right? What was Israel could now be the next Yemen or Iran. Brilliant. What to do with the 400 miles of terrorist tunnels? Nothing ever changes.

So much straw in this post that it could fill a barn.

I'm confused about the concern for gay people who support the plight of the Palestinian people.

I'm pretty pro-choice.  I have been told by pro-life people that they hate me and want me dead for my viewpoints.  But if the US government started bombing pro-life people to death by the tens of thousands, I really like to think that I'd argue for the pro-life folks who are being killed.  Not because I've suddenly seen the light of the pro-life argument, but because it would be the right thing to do despite the differences we have.

First, there's a huge difference between someone's sexual orientation and someone's opinion on abortion. Opinions change frequently (often depending on what one's political party it telling them to be upset about), sexual orientation doesn't change the same way.

I mean . . . I agree with everything you've typed there, but don't really see the relevance to my comment.  It's an example of why you might end up supporting a group who you really don't agree with or see eye to eye with (and wants you dead).

Second, would you expect Jewish college students in America to protest on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of German civilians dying in WWII? If a culture is openly repressing people of your religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., it does seem a little odd to stand up for them.

As mentioned, sometimes the moral thing to do is to put aside grievances.  Would I expect Jewish college students in America to protest deaths of German civilians?  No.  If they did, would I ridicule them and assume that they're doing it out of stupidity rather than reason?  Also no.

(For the sake of argument I'm also ignoring the radically different circumstances between what's going on in Gaza right now and what went on in the second world war.  I can't think of any instance in WWII where America had total control of German food, water, and medical supplies and cut them off to terrorize the civilians.  Maybe the closest would be the bombing of civilians Dresden, Hamburg, and Cologne.)

If these protests do work (they won’t), are these same students going to follow up with protests condemning the repressive actions of Palestinians toward women and gays? These protests aren’t about the Palestinians, they’re about the U.S. support of Israel in any capacity.

American (and Canadian) college students can't really effect change in Palestine or Israel.  All that they can do is try to apply pressure to their schools and governments to support Israel's war crimes against Palestinians less.  Not sure how you can say that's not about the Palestinians though.

As mentioned, these protests have already worked much better than I would have expected.  The US has been providing weapons that Israel has been using to commit war crimes, has admitted such, and is now applying pressure in an attempt to moderate the number of civilians that Israel is killing.

[bacchi]

Second, would you expect Jewish college students in America to protest on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of German civilians dying in WWII? If a culture is openly repressing people of your religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., it does seem a little odd to stand up for them.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, there are plenty of Jewish students and professors that are participating in the university protests. I assume that they can see a difference between Palestinian civilians and Hamas combatants.

[blue_green_sparks]

Second, would you expect Jewish college students in America to protest on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of German civilians dying in WWII? If a culture is openly repressing people of your religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., it does seem a little odd to stand up for them.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, there are plenty of Jewish students and professors that are participating in the university protests. I assume that they can see a difference between Palestinian civilians and Hamas combatants.

Ahh..but they are not on the battlefield getting shot at by Jihadists in civilian clothing, are they?

Tell me, who are the Israeli combatants here? Who can even watch this?

https://www.october7thattack.com/

Every Hamas rocket launch is a war crime. Every Hamas fighter in civilian clothes is a war crime. Every human shield/war tunnel under a school is a war crime. Every civilian hostage.

Those Ivy League students do need an outlet to counter their intense guilt for being so entitled. So privileged. So sure, let’s find the final solution to the Jewish problem so they feel better about themselves. Genocide, from the river to the sea. That should do the trick. Or maybe just back to Poland, Russia, Hungary (or worse, an Ivy league school) with them, you know, where the Jews will be safe. Being an ex-Catholic atheist myself, I'd take Israel over Gaza, Iran, Yemen, Suudi...... Yeah, they'd kill me or lock me up for what I don't believe. But they are the good guys here, right?

[GuitarStv]

Second, would you expect Jewish college students in America to protest on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of German civilians dying in WWII? If a culture is openly repressing people of your religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., it does seem a little odd to stand up for them.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, there are plenty of Jewish students and professors that are participating in the university protests. I assume that they can see a difference between Palestinian civilians and Hamas combatants.

Ahh..but they are not on the battlefield getting shot at by Jihadists in civilian clothing, are they?

Tell me, who are the Israeli combatants here? Who can even watch this?

https://www.october7thattack.com/

Every Hamas rocket launch is a war crime. Every Hamas fighter in civilian clothes is a war crime. Every human shield/war tunnel under a school is a war crime. Every civilian hostage.

Agreed.  Hamas is a terrorist organization.  The October 7th attack was a terrorist attack against civilians.  Any time that a military force attacks civilians and kills a whole bunch of them it is wrong.  But that's the point.  You can't change morality based on ethnicity and religion of the person doing the attack.  If it's wrong when Hamas does it it's also wrong when Israel does it.  The Hamas attacks on civilians have stopped.  Israel's attacks on civilians show no sign of stopping.

Those Ivy League students do need an outlet to counter their intense guilt for being so entitled. So privileged. So sure, let’s find the final solution to the Jewish problem so they feel better about themselves. Genocide, from the river to the sea. That should do the trick. Or maybe just back to Poland, Russia, Hungary (or worse, an Ivy league school) with them, you know, where the Jews will be safe. Being an ex-Catholic atheist myself, I'd take Israel over Gaza, Iran, Yemen, Suudi...... Yeah, they'd kill me or lock me up for what I don't believe. But they are the good guys here, right?

You really believe that the Jewish people in Israel who believe the war is unjust and the Jewish protestors involved in the pro-Palestinian rallies are hoping for genocide of their own people?  Or that they're looking for the end of the state of Israel?

I don't think anyone is arguing that Iran, Yemen, or Gaza are the greatest places in the world.  That doesn't (shouldn't) give a powerful military with full US support the right to murder civilians wantonly.

[reeshau]

Two wrongs don't make a right.  We would be a better world if people could put this to use.

[dividendman]

Second, would you expect Jewish college students in America to protest on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of German civilians dying in WWII? If a culture is openly repressing people of your religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., it does seem a little odd to stand up for them.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, there are plenty of Jewish students and professors that are participating in the university protests. I assume that they can see a difference between Palestinian civilians and Hamas combatants.

Ahh..but they are not on the battlefield getting shot at by Jihadists in civilian clothing, are they?

Tell me, who are the Israeli combatants here? Who can even watch this?

https://www.october7thattack.com/

Every Hamas rocket launch is a war crime. Every Hamas fighter in civilian clothes is a war crime. Every human shield/war tunnel under a school is a war crime. Every civilian hostage.

Agreed.  Hamas is a terrorist organization.  The October 7th attack was a terrorist attack against civilians.  Any time that a military force attacks civilians and kills a whole bunch of them it is wrong.  But that's the point.  You can't change morality based on ethnicity and religion of the person doing the attack.  If it's wrong when Hamas does it it's also wrong when Israel does it.  The Hamas attacks on civilians have stopped.  Israel's attacks on civilians show no sign of stopping.

Those Ivy League students do need an outlet to counter their intense guilt for being so entitled. So privileged. So sure, let’s find the final solution to the Jewish problem so they feel better about themselves. Genocide, from the river to the sea. That should do the trick. Or maybe just back to Poland, Russia, Hungary (or worse, an Ivy league school) with them, you know, where the Jews will be safe. Being an ex-Catholic atheist myself, I'd take Israel over Gaza, Iran, Yemen, Suudi...... Yeah, they'd kill me or lock me up for what I don't believe. But they are the good guys here, right?

You really believe that the Jewish people in Israel who believe the war is unjust and the Jewish protestors involved in the pro-Palestinian rallies are hoping for genocide of their own people?  Or that they're looking for the end of the state of Israel?

I don't think anyone is arguing that Iran, Yemen, or Gaza are the greatest places in the world.  That doesn't (shouldn't) give a powerful military with full US support the right to murder civilians wantonly.

Intent matters.

Hamas' intent with the attacks was to kill as many people as possible and take hostages.

Israel's intent is to eliminate Hamas and free the hostages. Hamas' intent is to eliminate all of Israel.

Israel has the ability to kill all Palestinians, but they don't. If Hamas had the ability to kill all Israelis, they would.

You can argue that some extremist Israeli's do want to kill all of the Palestinians. But the Israeli government certainly isn't acting in a very expeditious way to accomplish this objective.

[ChpBstrd]

IDK. The scenes of right-wing Israeli "activists" attacking convoys of food, water, and medicinal aid to the starving Palestinians certainly reeks of genocidal intent. These people, along with the Israeli settlers who are ethnically cleansing the West Bank, are the political base for Netanyahu's Likud party.

I think the Biden administration has rightfully judged that Netanyahu will kill or displace as many Palestinians as possible until he meets sufficient Western opposition to exceed the internal support he obtains from doing so. The US's election season has hobbled its leaders ability to push back, and thus offers an opportunity for Likud and its supporters to facilitate a famine, salt the earth, and bomb Gaza into oblivion.

Media reporting out of Gaza is scarce, and can only be done with Israeli army chaperones and censors. I suspect we don't know how bad things are, despite the reports of brave whistleblowers from Israeli mass detention centers. 

[GuitarStv]

Second, would you expect Jewish college students in America to protest on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of German civilians dying in WWII? If a culture is openly repressing people of your religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., it does seem a little odd to stand up for them.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, there are plenty of Jewish students and professors that are participating in the university protests. I assume that they can see a difference between Palestinian civilians and Hamas combatants.

Ahh..but they are not on the battlefield getting shot at by Jihadists in civilian clothing, are they?

Tell me, who are the Israeli combatants here? Who can even watch this?

https://www.october7thattack.com/

Every Hamas rocket launch is a war crime. Every Hamas fighter in civilian clothes is a war crime. Every human shield/war tunnel under a school is a war crime. Every civilian hostage.

Agreed.  Hamas is a terrorist organization.  The October 7th attack was a terrorist attack against civilians.  Any time that a military force attacks civilians and kills a whole bunch of them it is wrong.  But that's the point.  You can't change morality based on ethnicity and religion of the person doing the attack.  If it's wrong when Hamas does it it's also wrong when Israel does it.  The Hamas attacks on civilians have stopped.  Israel's attacks on civilians show no sign of stopping.

Those Ivy League students do need an outlet to counter their intense guilt for being so entitled. So privileged. So sure, let’s find the final solution to the Jewish problem so they feel better about themselves. Genocide, from the river to the sea. That should do the trick. Or maybe just back to Poland, Russia, Hungary (or worse, an Ivy league school) with them, you know, where the Jews will be safe. Being an ex-Catholic atheist myself, I'd take Israel over Gaza, Iran, Yemen, Suudi...... Yeah, they'd kill me or lock me up for what I don't believe. But they are the good guys here, right?

You really believe that the Jewish people in Israel who believe the war is unjust and the Jewish protestors involved in the pro-Palestinian rallies are hoping for genocide of their own people?  Or that they're looking for the end of the state of Israel?

I don't think anyone is arguing that Iran, Yemen, or Gaza are the greatest places in the world.  That doesn't (shouldn't) give a powerful military with full US support the right to murder civilians wantonly.

Intent matters.

Hamas' intent with the attacks was to kill as many people as possible and take hostages.

Israel's intent is to eliminate Hamas and free the hostages. Hamas' intent is to eliminate all of Israel.

I can't read minds, only look at concrete examples of things that have happened and draw conclusions from that.  Right now, it seems that Israel's intent is to eliminate all Palestinians in Gaza.  Israel has no credible plan for freeing hostages (and in fact turned down a negotiating offer to do just that a few days ago).  Israel has no credible plan for killing Hamas without massive war crimes against civilians.  Israel has no credible plan for what to do with Gaza after their invasion ends.  Israel has refused to allow enough aid to go through to feed Palestinian civilians, allow clean water, or medical care.  Israel is responsible for at least an order of magnitude more civilian deaths in Palestine than Hamas was on the October 7th attack - with no signs of stopping.

Israel has the ability to kill all Palestinians, but they don't. If Hamas had the ability to kill all Israelis, they would.

You can argue that some extremist Israeli's do want to kill all of the Palestinians. But the Israeli government certainly isn't acting in a very expeditious way to accomplish this objective.

Israel's minister of defense started this war by saying that they would starve and cut off water to the Palestinians because they are less than human.  They have continued to follow through with this war crime during the whole conflict.  I do argue that extremist Israelis do want to kill all Palestinians . . . what's concerning to me is that they are running the war.

As far as I can tell, the Israeli government and military are being (loosely) held in check only by external pressures right now.

[dividendman]

Israel's minister of defense started this war by saying that they would starve and cut off water to the Palestinians because they are less than human.  They have continued to follow through with this war crime during the whole conflict.  I do argue that extremist Israelis do want to kill all Palestinians . . . what's concerning to me is that they are running the war.

As far as I can tell, the Israeli government and military are being (loosely) held in check only by external pressures right now.

So you think the Israeli's want to kill all the Palestinians but are so bad at it they haven't even managed to kill 1% of them? The external pressures are so effective that they've basically not allowed Israel to accomplish anything? Then the international pressure has been a resounding success, right? A win for all.

[GuitarStv]

Israel's minister of defense started this war by saying that they would starve and cut off water to the Palestinians because they are less than human.  They have continued to follow through with this war crime during the whole conflict.  I do argue that extremist Israelis do want to kill all Palestinians . . . what's concerning to me is that they are running the war.

As far as I can tell, the Israeli government and military are being (loosely) held in check only by external pressures right now.

So you think the Israeli's want to kill all the Palestinians but are so bad at it they haven't even managed to kill 1% of them? The external pressures are so effective that they've basically not allowed Israel to accomplish anything? Then the international pressure has been a resounding success, right? A win for all.

No.

I think that a great many of the people in the Israeli government want to expand Israel to encompass all Palestinian land and then either kill or drive out the Palestinians.  This has after all, been the official Israeli policy towards settlement in the West Bank for decades now.  Remember that Netanyahu's party's previous official platform contained:

"Between the Sea and the Jordan river there will be only Israeli sovereignty" - https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/01/22/netanyahu-biden-two-state-solution-palestine-river-to-sea/

I think that hardliner Israelis are aware that there are limits to acts that they can perpetrate and continue to get the foreign aid that makes the continued existence of their country possible - so there's a necessity to pay lip service to attacking Hamas.  I also think that Netanyahu and cronies have become complacent expecting American support to have no bounds at all.  After all, Netanyahu said:

“I know what America is.  America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction. They won’t get in the way.” - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2010/7/18/netanyahu-us-easily-manipulated

Because of this expectation of how easy it will be to manipulate Americans regardless of actions taken they've pushed their civilian murders and war crimes in Gaza to new heights . . . but it now seems to be bringing unexpected international blowback.  I have no idea what the next steps Israel will take though.  I'd call it a resounding success if Israel stops committing war crimes and defeats Hamas.  I'd call it an utter failure of military and political strategy if they can't defeat the Hamas that the Israeli government supported and helped to maintain in power without continuing to commit war crimes against the Palestinian people - because taking these actions against a civilian population will guarantee another Israeli hating Hamas rises up immediately afterwards.

[iris lily]

Second, would you expect Jewish college students in America to protest on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of German civilians dying in WWII? If a culture is openly repressing people of your religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., it does seem a little odd to stand up for them.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, there are plenty of Jewish students and professors that are participating in the university protests. I assume that they can see a difference between Palestinian civilians and Hamas combatants.

Ahh..but they are not on the battlefield getting shot at by Jihadists in civilian clothing, are they?

Tell me, who are the Israeli combatants here? Who can even watch this?

https://www.october7thattack.com/

Every Hamas rocket launch is a war crime. Every Hamas fighter in civilian clothes is a war crime. Every human shield/war tunnel under a school is a war crime. Every civilian hostage.

Agreed.  Hamas is a terrorist organization.  The October 7th attack was a terrorist attack against civilians.  Any time that a military force attacks civilians and kills a whole bunch of them it is wrong.  But that's the point.  You can't change morality based on ethnicity and religion of the person doing the attack.  If it's wrong when Hamas does it it's also wrong when Israel does it.  The Hamas attacks on civilians have stopped.  Israel's attacks on civilians show no sign of stopping.

Those Ivy League students do need an outlet to counter their intense guilt for being so entitled. So privileged. So sure, let’s find the final solution to the Jewish problem so they feel better about themselves. Genocide, from the river to the sea. That should do the trick. Or maybe just back to Poland, Russia, Hungary (or worse, an Ivy league school) with them, you know, where the Jews will be safe. Being an ex-Catholic atheist myself, I'd take Israel over Gaza, Iran, Yemen, Suudi...... Yeah, they'd kill me or lock me up for what I don't believe. But they are the good guys here, right?

You really believe that the Jewish people in Israel who believe the war is unjust and the Jewish protestors involved in the pro-Palestinian rallies are hoping for genocide of their own people?  Or that they're looking for the end of the state of Israel?

I don't think anyone is arguing that Iran, Yemen, or Gaza are the greatest places in the world.  That doesn't (shouldn't) give a powerful military with full US support the right to murder civilians wantonly.

Intent matters.

Hamas' intent with the attacks was to kill as many people as possible and take hostages.

Israel's intent is to eliminate Hamas and free the hostages. Hamas' intent is to eliminate all of Israel.

Israel has the ability to kill all Palestinians, but they don't. If Hamas had the ability to kill all Israelis, they would.

You can argue that some extremist Israeli's do want to kill all of the Palestinians. But the Israeli government certainly isn't acting in a very expeditious way to accomplish this objective.

You forgot Hamas’ third intent which was to spread terror among everyone they couldn't get their hands on, hence the brutality of the October 7 events. Killing kids in-front of parents, filming killings and sending live footage to family members, rapes, etc—-that is Hamas effectively using the language of terror.

So in a Letterman Top Ten List of things I like about
Hamas I would include:


2. Hamas knows how to use  digital media effectively.

1.Hamas is up front and open about their goal:  kill Jews. They are that simple and clear.

I like clarity.

[GuitarStv]

Second, would you expect Jewish college students in America to protest on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of German civilians dying in WWII? If a culture is openly repressing people of your religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., it does seem a little odd to stand up for them.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, there are plenty of Jewish students and professors that are participating in the university protests. I assume that they can see a difference between Palestinian civilians and Hamas combatants.

Ahh..but they are not on the battlefield getting shot at by Jihadists in civilian clothing, are they?

Tell me, who are the Israeli combatants here? Who can even watch this?

https://www.october7thattack.com/

Every Hamas rocket launch is a war crime. Every Hamas fighter in civilian clothes is a war crime. Every human shield/war tunnel under a school is a war crime. Every civilian hostage.

Agreed.  Hamas is a terrorist organization.  The October 7th attack was a terrorist attack against civilians.  Any time that a military force attacks civilians and kills a whole bunch of them it is wrong.  But that's the point.  You can't change morality based on ethnicity and religion of the person doing the attack.  If it's wrong when Hamas does it it's also wrong when Israel does it.  The Hamas attacks on civilians have stopped.  Israel's attacks on civilians show no sign of stopping.

Those Ivy League students do need an outlet to counter their intense guilt for being so entitled. So privileged. So sure, let’s find the final solution to the Jewish problem so they feel better about themselves. Genocide, from the river to the sea. That should do the trick. Or maybe just back to Poland, Russia, Hungary (or worse, an Ivy league school) with them, you know, where the Jews will be safe. Being an ex-Catholic atheist myself, I'd take Israel over Gaza, Iran, Yemen, Suudi...... Yeah, they'd kill me or lock me up for what I don't believe. But they are the good guys here, right?

You really believe that the Jewish people in Israel who believe the war is unjust and the Jewish protestors involved in the pro-Palestinian rallies are hoping for genocide of their own people?  Or that they're looking for the end of the state of Israel?

I don't think anyone is arguing that Iran, Yemen, or Gaza are the greatest places in the world.  That doesn't (shouldn't) give a powerful military with full US support the right to murder civilians wantonly.

Intent matters.

Hamas' intent with the attacks was to kill as many people as possible and take hostages.

Israel's intent is to eliminate Hamas and free the hostages. Hamas' intent is to eliminate all of Israel.

Israel has the ability to kill all Palestinians, but they don't. If Hamas had the ability to kill all Israelis, they would.

You can argue that some extremist Israeli's do want to kill all of the Palestinians. But the Israeli government certainly isn't acting in a very expeditious way to accomplish this objective.

You forgot Hamas’ third intent which was to spread terror among everyone they couldn't get their hands on, hence the brutality of the October 7 events. Killing kids in-front of parents, filming killings and sending live footage to family members, rapes, etc—-that is Hamas effectively using the language of terror.

So in a Letterman Top Ten List of things I like about
Hamas I would include:


2. Hamas knows how to use  digital media effectively.

1.Hamas is up front and open about their goal:  kill Jews. They are that simple and clear.

I like clarity.

You must also love Israel's clarity on the matter:

"There are no innocent civilians in Gaza," - Israeli President Isaac Herzog (https://twitter.com/Sprinterfactory/status/1713064886027063584)

"I am saying here to the citizens of Lebanon, I already see the citizens in Gaza walking with white flags along the coast... If Hezbollah makes mistakes of this kind, the ones who will pay the price are, first of all, the citizens of Lebanon. What we are doing in Gaza, we know how to do in Beirut." - Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant, threatening Lebanese considering taking in any civilians fleeing Gaza (https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/touring-north-gallant-warns-hezbollah-close-to-making-a-grave-mistake/)

"Gaza is the city of evil, we will turn all the places in which Hamas deploys and hides into ruins. I am telling the people of Gaza — get out of there now. We will act everywhere and with full power," - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to Palestinians that his forces had trapped in place

"You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible," he said on October 28. Netanyahu continued: "We remember, and we are fighting … our soldiers are part of a legacy of Jewish warriors that goes back 3,000 years." - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu referencing the biblical story of the Israelites committing genocide against the Amelek

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx[/url]]Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

(https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/13/israel-darkest-day-24-hours-of-terror-hamas-gaza)

"God Willing, it will hit innocent people" - Phtotograph of Hebrew writing on Israeli shell taken by an IDF soldier (https://twitter.com/YehudaShaul/status/1737112356092866871)

Here's a story of IDF soldiers murdering Israeli hostages who escaped from Hamas.  Unfortunately for the hostages, they looked a little too much like Palestinians civilians waving a white flag to the IDF.  (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-troops-killed-hostages-mistaking-their-cries-help-ambush-military-2023-12-28/#:~:text=JERUSALEM%2C%20Dec%2028%20(Reuters),the%20best%20of%20their%20understanding.)

"One of the options is to drop an atomic bomb on Gaza. I pray & hope for their [hostages] return, but there is also a price in war," Amichai Eliyahu, Israeli Minister of Heritage (like many Israeli leaders, obviously more interested in genocide that return of hostages - https://news.walla.co.il/item/3620482?utm_source=whatsup&utm_medium=sharebuttonapp&utm_term=social&utm_content=whatsup&utm_campaign=socialbutton)

"Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating they way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated," - Yoav Kisch, Israeli Minister of Education (https://zionism.observer/yoav-kisch)

"Bring down buildings!! Bomb without distinction!! Stop with this impotence. You have ability. There is worldwide legitimacy! Flatten Gaza. Without mercy! This time, there is no room for mercy!" - Revital Gottlieb member of the Israeli Knesset and member of Benjamin Netanyahu's party - https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/israel-palestine-war-uk-sunak-message-slaughter-carry-on

"If all of Gaza are refugees, then let's scatter them in the world. There are 2.5m people there, each country would take in 20K people, 100 countries, it is humane, it is required," suggested Ram Ben Barak, member of the Israeli Knesset, advocating a forced relocation 'solution' that the Jewish people felt was completely unfair and not possible for them to adhere to when they founded the state of Israel after the second world war - https://twitter.com/YehudaShaul/status/1723375975163990052

"As long as Hamas does not release the hostages it is holding - the only thing that needs to
enter Gaza is hundreds of tons of explosives by the Air Force, and not an ounce of
humanitarian aid." - Itamar Ben-Gvir , Minister of National Security - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/11/health/gaza-israel-hunger-starvation.html#:~:text=Itamar%20Ben%2DGvir%2C%20Israel's%20national,an%20ounce%20of%20humanitarian%20aid.%E2%80%9D

"Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything." - Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant advocating for wanton destruction of civilian infrastructure (https://twitter.com/hammam__farah/status/1712877548420345989)

"We are imposing a complete siege on the city of Gaza.  There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel, everything is closed.  We are fighting human animals." - Yoav Gallant explaining his plan to starve and punish Palestinian civilians for the actions of Hamas terrorists, and dehumanizing Palestinian civilians.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbPdR3E4hCk)

I mean, this list can go on and on but it already covers the president, the prime minister, the minister of defense, the minister of national security, the minister of heritage, the minister of education, multiple members of the knesset . . . all advocating for genocide/forced relocation of Palestinian civilians.  At some point even the most fervently racially/religiously blinded pro-Israeli guy has to admit that there's something not quite right here.  It's not a small number of fringe people pushing these ideas.  These are top people in positions of power at all levels of government who have direct control over IDF actions and who by all accounts have been working to make genocide happen.



So yeah. . . lots of clarity from both Hamas and Israel.

[GuitarStv]

The International Criminal Court is now seeking international warrants for the arrest of people responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Israel-Hamas war (https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-icc-icj-explainer-1.7209546).

Warrants sought so far cover Hamas commander-in-chief Yahya Sinwar, militant commander Mohammed Diab Ibrahim al-Masri, head of Hamas political bureau Ismail Haniyeh, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant.

Here's hoping that all the named criminals can be brought to justice for their actions.

[bacchi]

The International Criminal Court is now seeking international warrants for the arrest of people responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Israel-Hamas war (https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-icc-icj-explainer-1.7209546).

Warrants sought so far cover Hamas commander-in-chief Yahya Sinwar, militant commander Mohammed Diab Ibrahim al-Masri, head of Hamas political bureau Ismail Haniyeh, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant.

Here's hoping that all the named criminals can be brought to justice for their actions.

Netanyahu should already be in Israeli jail for his crimes of fraud and bribery.

His war cabinet is decaying at the fringes, too. Gantz wants the "demilitarization of Gaza, returning Israeli hostages and establishing multinational governance over the area" but Netanyahu has decided that's equivalent to a "defeat for Israeli." It's clear Likud's goal is more land for settlers, as Gvir stated last summer.

“The land of Israel for the Nation of Israel,” [Security Minister Ben-Gvir] said, employing a nativist slogan meant to promote exclusive Jewish control of the land between the Mediterranean and Jordan River.

[dividendman]

Israel, like the US, China and Russia doesn't recognize the ICC. The ICC is a pointless institution that does more harm than good.

[bacchi]

Israel, like the US, China and Russia doesn't recognize the ICC. The ICC is a pointless institution that does more harm than good.

It can't be entirely useless. Netanyahu won't be be visiting France again. Or Ireland, or South Africa, and 100+ other countries that are signatories.

[dividendman]

Israel, like the US, China and Russia doesn't recognize the ICC. The ICC is a pointless institution that does more harm than good.

It can't be entirely useless. Netanyahu won't be be visiting France again. Or Ireland, or South Africa, and 100+ other countries that are signatories.

Maybe, let's see if the warrant gets through. The ICC is racist and colonialist and won't ever hold certain leaders accountable due to the political fallout. The President of China comes to mind.

It's pretty much white Europeans convicting Africans for various crimes but giving themselves a pass.

[reeshau]

Ireland, Norway, and Spain have formally recognized a Palestinian State.  Israel has recalled its ambassadors from Ireland and Norway in response.

They join 143 other countries that have already recognized a Palestinian State.

[rocketpj]

Israel, like the US, China and Russia doesn't recognize the ICC. The ICC is a pointless institution that does more harm than good.

It can't be entirely useless. Netanyahu won't be be visiting France again. Or Ireland, or South Africa, and 100+ other countries that are signatories.

Maybe, let's see if the warrant gets through. The ICC is racist and colonialist and won't ever hold certain leaders accountable due to the political fallout. The President of China comes to mind.

It's pretty much white Europeans convicting Africans for various crimes but giving themselves a pass.

I don't know, there haven't been a ton of genocides or war crimes  in Europe since the creation of the ICC, and certainly there were some prosecutions for the conflict in former Yugoslavia.

That said, Afghanistan and Iraq would like a word.

[StashingAway]

I mean, this list can go on and on but it already covers the president, the prime minister, the minister of defense, the minister of national security, the minister of heritage, the minister of education, multiple members of the knesset . . . all advocating for genocide/forced relocation of Palestinian civilians.  At some point even the most fervently racially/religiously blinded pro-Israeli guy has to admit that there's something not quite right here.  It's not a small number of fringe people pushing these ideas.  These are top people in positions of power at all levels of government who have direct control over IDF actions and who by all accounts have been working to make genocide happen.



So yeah. . . lots of clarity from both Hamas and Israel.

I have many disagreements here, but would like to start with this:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7yBTNxFzwBgZ4vhC3sxhHr

[GuitarStv]

I mean, this list can go on and on but it already covers the president, the prime minister, the minister of defense, the minister of national security, the minister of heritage, the minister of education, multiple members of the knesset . . . all advocating for genocide/forced relocation of Palestinian civilians.  At some point even the most fervently racially/religiously blinded pro-Israeli guy has to admit that there's something not quite right here.  It's not a small number of fringe people pushing these ideas.  These are top people in positions of power at all levels of government who have direct control over IDF actions and who by all accounts have been working to make genocide happen.



So yeah. . . lots of clarity from both Hamas and Israel.

I have many disagreements here, but would like to start with this:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7yBTNxFzwBgZ4vhC3sxhHr

Could you start by addressing the direct quotes I gave that are advocating for genocide/forced relocation of Palestinian civilians?  Which of the direct quotes do you disagree with?



FWIW, I've given a listen to your podcast.

They spend extended periods of time talking about how the Hamas attack on Israel was terrible.  This is something I agree with.

At around 20 minutes, Sam Harris talks about how some Palestinian civilians seemed to be happy with the attack and taking of Israeli terrorists.  The two then discuss the moral/cultural superiority of Israelis to Palestinians, arguing that Israelis would never publicly parade hostages around in the same manner.  FWIW - I agree partially with this as well.  The hostages that the Israeli military takes from Gaza and the West Bank are typically beaten, raped, and mistreated in private.  There is no public showings as the Israeli government is democratic and risks being ousted from power by voters for such displays.  Hamas is not democratically elected and thus has no fears.  Supporters of Hamas in Palestine are free to show their support.  Palestinians who do not support Hamas are not.  Given the circumstances I disagree that this can be used as an example of a fundamental difference in morality and ethics between Palestinians and Israelis.

At around 30 minutes, Harris and Spencer both discuss that civilian casualties from the Gaza health ministry combine Hamas fighters as well as civilians.  They appear to either be unaware of or simply to ignore inconvenient research on this issue (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext, https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext, https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fulltext, https://aoav.org.uk/2024/analysis-of-new-death-data-from-gazas-health-ministry-reveals-several-concerns/).  They do not discuss the reason that the only data source for information is the Gaza Health Ministry because the IDF has prevented independent observers and journalists from entering the area to verify claims made.  After discussing how they believe that the numbers from the Gaza health ministry are completely wrong, Harris and Spencer also make unfounded speculation about the proportion of civilians/combatants killed.  (At around the 1 hr mark they return to guessing about numbers of Hamas fighters.)

At around 40 minutes they argue that the Israeli use of massive munitions in Gaza is justified because Hamas fighters have many tunnels.  Oddly enough, they do not discuss the incredibly widespread use of poorly-targeted dumb bombs and indiscriminate targeting in densely populated areas of Gaza though.  They also discuss that Hamas is using civilians as human shields - something that I completely agree with.  Hamas certainly wanted Palestinian civilians to die.

At around 1:10 they discuss how Israel is protecting/rescuing Israeli hostages while they're blowing up and flooding the tunnels that the hostages are being held into.  Effectively, they seem to be arguing that Israel is relying on 'human contacts' so I would have to guess Palestinian informants?  Seems very hand wavey and (like a lot of this podcast) very speculative.

At around 1:15 they are talking about a video of the IDF bombing unarmed individuals.  Their argument is that context is missing - which I think is fair.  I find it very disappointing that they chose not to discuss the Israeli precision strike on the World Kitchen aid workers who were working closely with the IDF.  There was no context missing from that attack - the IDF knew they were there, and deliberately targeted them.  Was it incompetence?  Was it deliberate?  It would have been interesting to hear them discuss this.

At around 1:20 there is discussion of the need to destroy Hamas - which again, I agree with.  Then there's discussion of the future of Gaza - a need to rebuild.  Harris and Spencer both seem to argue that Palestine should never be a state, cannot have an army, cannot have control of their borders, and will always need to be policed by Israel.

1:30 is mostly discussion of what they believe Israel should to about Hezbolla and Iran.




So overall I'm not really understanding what part of the podcast you posted disagrees with the quoted section of my post.  Maybe you could clarify?

[StashingAway]

I mean, this list can go on and on but it already covers the president, the prime minister, the minister of defense, the minister of national security, the minister of heritage, the minister of education, multiple members of the knesset . . . all advocating for genocide/forced relocation of Palestinian civilians.  At some point even the most fervently racially/religiously blinded pro-Israeli guy has to admit that there's something not quite right here.  It's not a small number of fringe people pushing these ideas.  These are top people in positions of power at all levels of government who have direct control over IDF actions and who by all accounts have been working to make genocide happen.



So yeah. . . lots of clarity from both Hamas and Israel.

I have many disagreements here, but would like to start with this:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7yBTNxFzwBgZ4vhC3sxhHr

Could you start by addressing the direct quotes I gave that are advocating for genocide/forced relocation of Palestinian civilians?  Which of the direct quotes do you disagree with?



FWIW, I've given a listen to your podcast.

They spend extended periods of time talking about how the Hamas attack on Israel was terrible.  This is something I agree with.

At around 20 minutes, Sam Harris talks about how some Palestinian civilians seemed to be happy with the attack and taking of Israeli terrorists.  The two then discuss the moral/cultural superiority of Israelis to Palestinians, arguing that Israelis would never publicly parade hostages around in the same manner.  FWIW - I agree partially with this as well.  The hostages that the Israeli military takes from Gaza and the West Bank are typically beaten, raped, and mistreated in private.  There is no public showings as the Israeli government is democratic and risks being ousted from power by voters for such displays.  Hamas is not democratically elected and thus has no fears.  Supporters of Hamas in Palestine are free to show their support.  Palestinians who do not support Hamas are not.  Given the circumstances I disagree that this can be used as an example of a fundamental difference in morality and ethics between Palestinians and Israelis.

At around 30 minutes, Harris and Spencer both discuss that civilian casualties from the Gaza health ministry combine Hamas fighters as well as civilians.  They appear to either be unaware of or simply to ignore inconvenient research on this issue (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext, https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext, https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fulltext, https://aoav.org.uk/2024/analysis-of-new-death-data-from-gazas-health-ministry-reveals-several-concerns/).  They do not discuss the reason that the only data source for information is the Gaza Health Ministry because the IDF has prevented independent observers and journalists from entering the area to verify claims made.  After discussing how they believe that the numbers from the Gaza health ministry are completely wrong, Harris and Spencer also make unfounded speculation about the proportion of civilians/combatants killed.  (At around the 1 hr mark they return to guessing about numbers of Hamas fighters.)

At around 40 minutes they argue that the Israeli use of massive munitions in Gaza is justified because Hamas fighters have many tunnels.  Oddly enough, they do not discuss the incredibly widespread use of poorly-targeted dumb bombs and indiscriminate targeting in densely populated areas of Gaza though.  They also discuss that Hamas is using civilians as human shields - something that I completely agree with.  Hamas certainly wanted Palestinian civilians to die.

At around 1:10 they discuss how Israel is protecting/rescuing Israeli hostages while they're blowing up and flooding the tunnels that the hostages are being held into.  Effectively, they seem to be arguing that Israel is relying on 'human contacts' so I would have to guess Palestinian informants?  Seems very hand wavey and (like a lot of this podcast) very speculative.

At around 1:15 they are talking about a video of the IDF bombing unarmed individuals.  Their argument is that context is missing - which I think is fair.  I find it very disappointing that they chose not to discuss the Israeli precision strike on the World Kitchen aid workers who were working closely with the IDF.  There was no context missing from that attack - the IDF knew they were there, and deliberately targeted them.  Was it incompetence?  Was it deliberate?  It would have been interesting to hear them discuss this.

At around 1:20 there is discussion of the need to destroy Hamas - which again, I agree with.  Then there's discussion of the future of Gaza - a need to rebuild.  Harris and Spencer both seem to argue that Palestine should never be a state, cannot have an army, cannot have control of their borders, and will always need to be policed by Israel.

1:30 is mostly discussion of what they believe Israel should to about Hezbolla and Iran.




So overall I'm not really understanding what part of the podcast you posted disagrees with the quoted section of my post.  Maybe you could clarify?

I really appreciate you taking the time to listen to the podcast. Obviously, with something so global, to people, experts or not, will not even beging to cover all of the details.

I had bolded the section above and written a lengthy response and ended up deleting it as these things don't pan out the way I expect. My main mistake here is that Sam Harris has discussed these events in a few podcasts and I tend to blur them together as they are part of a longer conversation.

My main qualm with the claims of genocide are that Israel has already tried the peaceful route. They gave Gaza to the Palestinians decades ago. For a country wishing genocide, they let that population grow by an order of magnitude. That's not the typical action of a genocide. The Chinese uyghur persecution is a genocide.

As an aside, wishing for the death of all of the Nazi's during WWII wasn't really a genocide, it's a necessity of winning the war. Wars are brutal and part of the point of them is to contain any doubt as to whether your opponent can effectively try again. Palestinians lobbing missles to the point of a continuous iron curtain isn't something that would be tolerated in any country, but somehow we expect Israel to?

Sorry I can't contain my word salad better

[GuitarStv]

My main qualm with the claims of genocide are that Israel has already tried the peaceful route. They gave Gaza to the Palestinians decades ago. For a country wishing genocide, they let that population grow by an order of magnitude. That's not the typical action of a genocide.

A few points here:
- The Jewish populations in the areas later to be made Germany was growing and expanding after the Jewish emancipation movements through the early 1800s.  This culminated in 1871 where it became officially illegal to discriminate against Jewish people in the country as Germany was unified into a single country.  That didn't stop Germany from later electing Nazis who committed genocide in the early 1930s though.

- Israel didn't 'give' Gaza to Palestinians - they couldn't, as it never belonged to them.  In 2005 they ceased their military occupation of Gaza that had started in 1967.

- Why did Israel stop their occupation?  Sharon's deputy leader explained the concerns that brought this about:

There is no doubt in my mind that very soon the government of Israel is going to have to address the demographic issue with the utmost seriousness and resolve. This issue above all others will dictate the solution that we must adopt. In the absence of a negotiated agreement – and I do not believe in the realistic prospect of an agreement – we need to implement a unilateral alternative... More and more Palestinians are uninterested in a negotiated, two-state solution, because they want to change the essence of the conflict from an Algerian paradigm to a South African one. From a struggle against 'occupation,' in their parlance, to a struggle for one-man-one-vote. That is, of course, a much cleaner struggle, a much more popular struggle – and ultimately a much more powerful one. For us, it would mean the end of the Jewish state... the parameters of a unilateral solution are: To maximize the number of Jews; to minimize the number of Palestinians; not to withdraw to the 1967 border and not to divide Jerusalem... Twenty-three years ago, Moshe Dayan proposed unilateral autonomy. On the same wavelength, we may have to espouse unilateral separation... [it] would inevitably preclude a dialogue with the Palestinians for at least 25 years

Effectively, the concern was that they couldn't continue denying Palestinians living under Israeli rule the right to vote forever.  So Israel gave up marginal control of the area (while maintaining control of the coast, borders, and airspace) and allowed self-governing to happen.

- Netanyahu continued the policy of attempting to sew division among Palestinians by sending money directly into Gaza to Hamas.  Netanyahu has (repeatedly) described this strategy of keeping extremists in power as being necessary to prevent Palestinians from uniting and as an Israeli method of sabotaging a two state solution for peace.  This Israeli strategy of empowering Hamas to oppress Palestinian civilians seems to have backfired.

As an aside, wishing for the death of all of the Nazi's during WWII wasn't really a genocide, it's a necessity of winning the war.

Agreed.

Wishing for the death of Hamas isn't genocide either.  If someone confuses Palestinian civilians with Hamas and wishes that all Palestinians die it is genocide though.  This is why the quotes that I posted earlier of many powerful Israeli politicians advocating for the death of Palestinian civilians are so disturbing.

Wars are brutal and part of the point of them is to contain any doubt as to whether your opponent can effectively try again. Palestinians lobbing missles to the point of a continuous iron curtain isn't something that would be tolerated in any country, but somehow we expect Israel to?

- Don't confuse Palestinian civilians with Hamas.
- Nobody in the world expects Israel to tolerate rockets being lobbed at them.  What is expected is a measured response that limits civilian deaths.  This is (long term) a better plan for Israeli security anyway.  If you don't want people to hate you enough to turn into extremist militants, avoiding wanton killing is a good idea.

[GuitarStv]

Since the start of this war, Israel's government has been cracking down on freedom of the press in order to hide the reality of the war being waged in Gaza from the Israeli people (https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-war-press-freedom-1.7218365).  This has included seizing equipment from the Associated Press, banning Al-Jazeera from operating in Israel at all by blocking all of it's news channels/websites and shutting down it's places of operation via government raids, prohibiting foreign and Israeli journalists from reporting in Gaza without military chaperones.

Netanyahu himself has avoided giving any interviews about the war in Gaza at all with Israeli news since it started, preferring only to give interviews with foreign news stations and only in English.  Journalists and members of the media have commented about the extraordinary levels of censorship from the Israeli military and self-censorship that Israeli media has performed during this conflict so far.  This includes showing only footage received from the IDF absent the atrocities that the rest of the world is aware of, more than 600 news articles being directly banned by the IDF before publication, and more than 2,700 news articles being censored or redacted by the IDF prior to being printed.  (https://www.972mag.com/israeli-military-censor-media-2023/)

This all makes sense.  It's hard to protest against injustice being done in your name when you aren't aware of the injustice.  A democracy is much easier to run when you can keep voters ignorant.  Netanyahu has seen how effective media control is when dictators use it, and is checking how far it can be pushed in his own country.

[ChpBstrd]

Since the start of this war, Israel's government has been cracking down on freedom of the press in order to hide the reality of the war being waged in Gaza from the Israeli people (https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-war-press-freedom-1.7218365).  This has included seizing equipment from the Associated Press, banning Al-Jazeera from operating in Israel at all by blocking all of it's news channels/websites and shutting down it's places of operation via government raids, prohibiting foreign and Israeli journalists from reporting in Gaza without military chaperones.

Netanyahu himself has avoided giving any interviews about the war in Gaza at all with Israeli news since it started, preferring only to give interviews with foreign news stations and only in English.  Journalists and members of the media have commented about the extraordinary levels of censorship from the Israeli military and self-censorship that Israeli media has performed during this conflict so far.  This includes showing only footage received from the IDF absent the atrocities that the rest of the world is aware of, more than 600 news articles being directly banned by the IDF before publication, and more than 2,700 news articles being censored or redacted by the IDF prior to being printed.  (https://www.972mag.com/israeli-military-censor-media-2023/)

This all makes sense.  It's hard to protest against injustice being done in your name when you aren't aware of the injustice.  A democracy is much easier to run when you can keep voters ignorant.  Netanyahu has seen how effective media control is when dictators use it, and is checking how far it can be pushed in his own country.

Remember when Gen X thought the internet was going to make censorship impossible?

It's actually making it much easier.

[GuitarStv]

Disturbing details continue to emerge about treatment of Palestinian prisoners (including children as young as six) in Israeli prisons since the start of the Israel/Hamas war:
- regular beatings with metal bars, butts of guns, and boots
- prisoners being attacked by dogs
- prisoners being forced to kiss the Israeli flag
- prisoners being forced to curse the Prophet Muhammad
- prisoners being deprived of water (including for a toilet in a cell shared by 10 inmates)
- insufficient food
- being stripped naked
- jailers urinating on prisoners
- being sexually tortured (various objects forcefully inserted into men's anuses, including electrical probes which UNRWA reported having to treat internal electrical burns for, Palestinian women report being blindfolded and sexually assaulted)

54 Palestinians in Israeli jails have died of their treatment since the start of the Israel-Hamas war.  Most Palestinians being held by Israel have not been charged of crime and have had no legal proceedings brought against them.  Israeli law enacted at the start of the war allows the detainment of Palestinians by security services without access to legal council or representation of any kind.  Israel has both denied all wrongdoing and claimed to be investigating the allegations.  Currently Israel holds 9,500 political prisoners - 3,500 of them without any charge.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/05/gazan-detainees-beaten-and-sexually-assaulted-at-israeli-detention-centres-un-report-claims

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/twilight-zone/2024-04-28/ty-article-magazine/.premium/palestinian-released-from-israeli-prison-describes-beatings-sexual-abuse-and-torture/0000018f-15e9-d2e1-a7df-15efb6590000

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/22/happening-again-guantanamo-victims-say-israel-using-us-style-torture

[ATtiny85]

Disturbing details continue to emerge about treatment of Palestinian prisoners (including children as young as six) in Israeli prisons since the start of the Israel/Hamas war:

Well sure, but they are Israel, so it is OK.

I am remaining hopeful that more and more folks here in the US turn against Israel and their actions. It’s decades later than preferred, but still. We can be lightly allied with them but still denounce them and stop active support.